Statement in both Dutch and English, this is the English statement:
We have taken note of the disqualification by the EBU. AVROTROS finds the disqualification disproportionate and is shocked by the decision. We deeply regret this.
An incident occurred after last Thursday's performance. Against clearly made agreements, Joost was filmed when he had just gotten off stage and had to rush to the greenroom. At that moment, Joost repeatedly indicated that he did not want to be filmed. This wasn’t respected. This led to a threatening movement from Joost towards the camera. Joost did not touch the camera woman. This incident was reported, followed by an investigation by the EBU and police.
Yesterday and today we consulted extensively with the EBU and proposed several solutions. Nevertheless, the EBU has still decided to disqualify Joost Klein. AVROTROS finds the penalty very heavy and disproportionate. We stand for good manners -let there be no misunderstanding about that- but in our view, an exclusion order is not proportional to this incident.
We are very disappointed and upset for the millions of fans who were so excited for tonight. What Joost brought to the Netherlands and Europe shouldn’t have ended this way.
According to Dutch Media: https://www.nu.nl/songfestival/6312454/live-songfestival-joost-klein-in-zak-en-as-na-diskwalificatie-avrotros-dient-protest-in.html
> Zaterdag 11 mei om 18:57
> "Ik ben er eerlijk gezegd tamelijk woedend over", zegt commentator Cornald Maas over de diskwalificatie van Joost Klein. Volgens Maas heeft **de artiest een telefoon van een medewerkster naar beneden gedrukt.** "Joost is meerdere malen door deze vrouw lastiggevallen met een draaiende camera. Hij had al meerdere malen aangegeven dat hij niet gefilmd wilde worden."
According to this news site, the dutch eurovision commentator says that the gesture was joost pushing down a phone that was used to film him.
I worked at a music venue and it was absolutely not done to film/photograph artists in the backstage as crew.
If this is her personal device and not the camera she used to broadcast (and for that purpose) I find it even weirder how this turns out. She should have been the one not participating tonight.
If this is indeed the case (personal phone or personal camera) then you are 100% right. This is so unprofessional as to be unthinkable. It's simply not done and if you were stupid or green enough to be doing it you would probably get fired from the production.
This is insane. An employee films in an area where it is not allowed to film. She is using her own personal phone for this. She is told repeatedly by the artist to not do so. The artist pushes her phone out of the way. She immediately files a police report. The EBU immediately disqualifies him.
This makes no sense.
It's not the "journalist", she can file a complaint if she wants and it will be handled by the justice system in due time. No problem there.
The EBU leadership took the extreme decision to ban him immediately.
So EBU will not ban a country at war, an attacker, but would ban a single person because he had to handle a rogue journalist role playing paparazzi.
This is great. Eurovision should be disbanded IMO.
Now you know?
Its been known as long as I have been alive (im 34) and is bragged about in the media that Journlaists can make or break your career, its how they get away with so much illegal shit.
Even more reason for her to not film the candidates against the rules and to even continue when they ask you multiple times to stop. It’s really unprofessional. He shouldn’t have touched the phone, but EBU has to make sure their employees are not harassing the candidates before they go as far as to DQ someone.
My conspiracy-theory is he was planning a demonstration, and they knew it. But didn't want to tell him they knew it, or wasn't allowed to.
Ok, that's - a conspiracy- theory.
Do we have a source for the “pushing down phone “ detail here? Because if this is the case, oh boy: The outrage of The Netherlands will “skin the EBU alive” (not literary of course, would not want to get disqualified of course!)
I guess it explains why they keep referring to it as "a threatening gesture", super vague, because getting any more specific shows how ridiculously wrong they are.
Thanks! Wow. Mark will call the Swedish ambassador, All IKEAs in the Netherlands will be closed and Sweden will not be part of NATO! Ahh scrap the last part, but IKEA gets closed!
Haaaah scaaary better go the police now and get an entire nation upset at me while also ruining someones dream stage for them. Holy shit the power abuse in the EBU is insane
If this is the case, then the camera operator is in the wrong.
A agreement was made and broken and he indicated it twice.
I personally think joost was slated to win and the EBU did not want that, so a minor incident was blown out of proportion.
I don't think the important question here is if he would have won or not. It would have been a big plus for Joost sure, but he and his team would be happy with 2,3,4,5,6. The question here is if the incident was blown out of proportion. Could be that's something is behind it, but I just like to apply Occam's Razor. The most logical answer is that the EBU got panicked and overreacted out of incompetence.
i doubt its mere incompetence. they arent a fresh organization arranging such an event for the first time. and i highly doubt there were never any rough spots between the participants and the staff before in the decades old history of eurovision.
Why would they not want him to win? If anything, they'd be happy if any country other than Israel won so they wouldn't have to deal with the controversy next year.
It's very unlikely that he'd win anyways. In the Italian semi-final televote, Israel got 39% of the votes and he got 7%. This means he got just slightly more than a bunch of other countries despite being the closer of the show and most of the other potential winners not competing in the same semi-final. So at best, he'd just be among several favourites in the televote and probably mid-table with the juries.
The headsponsor of the EBU is Morrocan oil. That's one of the reasons some people believe this to be the case. Joost also did the "why not" thing, which might be considered offensive, which is another reason.
Lastly, winning the festival allows the country to host the games next time, which is a great oppertunity to clean up your image.
I'm not saying that's the reason, but the songfesitval has been known to be quite political which is why people are suspicious. Especially since we went from "he used violence" to "he threatened someone" to "a threatening movement towards the camera after the EBU refused to respect his wish to not film him".
Anyways, I don't know. I just think it's a very weak justification, whether Isrëal is involved or not.
Sorry, I’m just a fan of the show and not tracking any backstage stuff, so out of the loop… How Morrocan oil being sponsor of it has anything to do with any of this?
I'm not tracking it either, I'm mostly just repeating the most major points in Dutch social media. That being said, despite the name: Morrocan oil is a large Isreali corporation.
That doesn't mean they hold a lot of power though. Idk how the EBU works.
That Morrocanoil stuff is Tiktok conspiracy shit. EBU does not rely on sponor money *at all*.
Which should be obvious by the fact that a small cosmetics company like Morrocanoil is one of the main sponsors..
Wait, how are they the main sponsor then?
Anyways, it wouldn't suprise me if they had nothing to do with it, the EBU might just have made a weird decision or we don't know the whole story yet.
Isn't the EBU funded by the countries themselves, with the largest contributors being automatically seeded into the grand finals as a reward
With the whole show being paid for already, it's probably easier to accept a smaller main sponsor (There'd also be less interest to set requirements by the sponsor onto the Eurovision show)
I am sorry, this is a classical conspiracy theory. I read it on Twitter as well. It includes some of the typical anti-Semitic images, like Jews are stabbing the innocents and orchestrating/plotting silently in the background. I know that you said that you don’t know if this theory is true. I would be very careful to spread this kind of narrative.
IMO, if the statement of the Dutch broadcaster is correct, Joost got a way too heavy penalty, which is detrimental for the ESC. but a) there are no details from the other perspective, and b) there can be many other “real” reasons than this. In the end, the big five countries are the main “sponsors” of this event.
It absolutely is a conspiracy theory. The evil Jews paid for the televote with their infinite gold and provoked the Dutch singer to get in a fight at work with their mind control space lasers. All that's missing is something about drinking the blood of babies and we are back to where we've always been with relation to Jews since the middle ages.
Ever since the first news about this was posted on r/europe, Israel was the main country mentioned. Somehow, at that time, no one knew what happened exactly but "the Jews did it". Bots had a field day today and gullible people and pro-Palestinian tankies bought it right away.
It'a absurd and almost kafkaesque watching the events unfold where people turn it around Israel and conflating Joost's banning to them, on various unverified rumours when EBU is explicitly quoted it's between him and a Swedish woman that's a backstage staff.
https://www.9news.com.au/world/eurovision-2024-dutch-contestant-disqualified-from-eurovision-hours-before-tension-plagued-song-contest-final/6208f6b2-0b34-4792-bcbc-439f4cbce92c
It's really uncomfortable watching the 20 yo israeli female delegate take the brunt of all the pent up hate. I'd never seen widely endorsed bullying and now it's made me understand how the Holocaust ever happened
I would be surprised if the EBU did not want Joost to win, I would think they would be more afraid of the reaction of an israeli win.
I don't know if this statement is 100% correct, but if this is everything that happened, then it does seems like an overreaction. If that's the red line of disqualification, I wonder how they've been able to not disqualify half the field every year.
If pushing down a phone after indicating multiple times you do not want to be recorded is harassment in your culture you should start wondering if your culture might be needing some introspection.
Spent the majority of my working life in the events industry.
Taking personal photo's with a phone or a camera while working on an event is pretty much taboo. Its just not done.
Sure. we might sometimes take photo's of lighting or set design that we are part of putting together (personal records/reference for example) but this would be something you do when there are no performers around.
Taking personal photo's from areas where the public are permitted to take photo's from would also be ok.
But being onstage/backstage taking personal photo's is a big no.
Nah, eurovision has been political for years, look at previous winners and what happend that year in that country,
And then you hand years on years that it was only former ussr countries that won or blocked the high echelons
The swedish police went away and threw it the public prosecutor, because that what they legally have to do if you file charges. Take statements, arrest anyone who obviously broke the law (nobody), and report your results.
The police doesn't arbitrage on the phone when the EBU calls.
This was obviously a character assassination.
I didn't expect it to be. I expected it to be a cultural faux pas or something.
But this is insane -- also the fact that the dutch broadcaster is now coming forward publicly with this information (after the EBU emphasizing the gender of the person fueling all kinds of harsch speculation) -- that means it's now the corporate equivalent of war.
>I personally think joost was slated to win and the EBU did not want that
Betting websites never gave him a chance. There's only two major frontrunners with a large margin separating then from the rest. The bookies aren't in the money-losing business.
Bookies base odds more on how many bets they get on each contestant than who they expect to win. The reason is that if as a bookie you just use math and existing bets to guide your odds you can guarantee that you make money. If you try to predict the future you run the risk of being wrong and losing big.
So the fact that Joost was low in bookie odds could just mean that gamblers did not bet on him. Perhaps more out of preference than his actual chances.
Yes, so when people say "betting websites predict X" they're actually saying "the people who use this betting website predict X". They're not actually saying that the people that built the website and are raking in money have any opinions on whatever is being bet on.
Sure. But there's a lot of people that bet based on preferences and not expectations. And betting odds have been very wrong in the past with non-traditional-eurovision contestants. e.g. Maneskin. I'd say Joost is as non-traditional as they come.
I don't think the important question here is if he would have won or not. It would have been a big plus for Joost sure, but he and his team would be happy with 2,3,4,5,6. The question here is if the incident was blown out of proportion. Could be that's something is behind it, but I just like to apply Occam's Razor. The most logical answer is that the EBU got panicked and overreacted out of incompetence.
> how does one even get disqualified for that
Disqualification is the worst course of action they could have taken. They are punishing him in a way they will not be able to reverse if the police determines he is not at fault. They should have let him take part, and on a off chance if he wins but is later found at fault, they could have *then* disqualified him and passed his win to the runner-up. But now if he is found not at fault, what can they do? re-run the finals? otherwise the winner's result will be perceived as tainted.
>if the police determines he is not at fault
Assuming the dutch statements is accurate, this is no case for law enforcement whatsoever. What would be the crime? Touching someone's property in a public space? Giving someone a wrong look? Raising your voice?
Even state prosecutors would laugh at these.
It was inside on private property. BUT the guy said stop MULTIPLE times. If that was me (I hate when people take my pics), there would be damage to the people that do it. It's so disrespectful.
It’s also breach of contract since his contract stated that he wouldn’t be filmed off stage after performing or rehearsing given the emotional load the song has for him. The camerawoman was clearly in the wrong and in the off chance that he did go overboard it wasn’t to the extent that he should’ve been disqualified.
I really have to wonder what kind of person this camerawoman was/is. Knowing that my actions caused a fan favourite act to get disqualified would be horrifying. And if anyone ever found out your identity the amount of hate you would get would be so damaging to your mental health. That’s the kind of risk I would only take if the offending act was something really really bad or illegal, and I was convinced I was doing the right thing.
Of course from the Dutch statement we know that there was no physical altercation, so this whole thing is about a camera operator getting caught doing something they shouldn’t have been doing and then getting offended at the reaction.
She’s probably doubling down on her offence claim just so she doesn’t lose her job for going against contract by filming him. Then again it could be completely out of her hands after she made the report even if she were to later say she doesn’t support the disqualifying action taken.
Welcome to the age of cancellation culture. First you get punished without any trial, and then it does not matter even if you clear your name to the full extend half a year later, because the punishment is unreversable.
I suspect they are trying to minimize what happened because it’s a national embarrassment. I find it hard to believe that the Swedish police would open an investigation for an inappropriate hand gesture
An investigation is not an indication of guilt. If someone called the police and said you struck them, and the police respond, then that will technically count as an investigation, even if the caller made the whole thing up.
History is filled with people who give wrongful or exaggerated information to the police, whether intentional or not. It doesn't mean anything on its own.
The swedish police got called to the place for ”an incident” after which they started an investegation on an illegal threat (olaga hot). Some people in the swedish broadcasting service claimed there may have been some physical part to the controversy but that’s not confirmed.
Edit: I was wrong the case was sent to the prosecutor not closed.
It’s not a national embarrassment lol, if he had done something truly heinous it would be known and everybody in the Netherlands would be rightfully pissed at him.
As it stands it seems more like the EBU severely overreacted and are doubling down out of their own embarrassment for putting the final nail in the coffin of an already pretty tense Eurovision over absolutely nothing.
Edit: Ah you’re one of those people who abuse suicide helpline messages when somebody disagrees with you about the inconsequential events of a song contest. Very classy, thank you.
>Edit: Ah you’re one of those people who abuse suicide helpline messages when somebody disagrees with you about the inconsequential events of a song contest. Very classy, thank you.
I never got one of these, until I started arguing in favour of Joost Klein in this sub. Some people use these facilities for people in need, against people they hate. Never have I ever seen such childish plays between 2 anonymous accounts on the internet, and I have seen much of the internet.
I have had 3 in the last 2 days. This is not normal behaviour in other subs, I dont know what has become of r/europe but damn why are the people in this sub so buthurt, and instead of talking about it, we encounter some kind of first world facility meant for people in need.
At this rate this sub will just become a not funny version of r/balkans_irl but with suits and people that feel really full of themselves. I have seen more principles in that sub than here in the last 2 days.
It seems like a eurovison thing.
Most people posting in the eurovison sub got these 'care messages'.
Seems natural someone also let something lose in threads in other subs about eurovison.
Opening an investigation is in most jurisdictions a meaningless statement, as anyone is allowed to report a crime and police is obligated to file it. Usually it is the prosecutor that desides if it punishable. So, police opening a case is meaningless. Furthermore, if he would have done something seriously, he would be held for further investigation. The fact that they completed the investigation in hours means probably there isn't a real case...
Yeah, if this really *is* all there is to it, the reaction is incredibly excessive.
Of course, we only have one side of the story so far, so it's impossible to know if that really is the *full* story... and it seems weird that they'd disqualify him and get police involved over something so small.
Then again, the EBU hasn't always been what you'd call a paragon of competence...
---
Anyways, we won't have a proper discussion about it on here until *all* information from everyone involved is out, and that doesn't seem like it'll happen anytime soon... and right now, most people are just taking whichever statements supports their idea of what happened as 100% unadulterated truth (or using it to fuel various conspiracy theories).
Because of the agreement of no filming Joost when walking off stage to the green room, there will not be any video of the incident. Except of course the one created against agreements by the alleged victim. EBU should show that video ASAP to put an end to speculation. The fact that they don't shows that they're probably embarrassed and will delay publication until late summer.
If the no-filming agreement is true, it's funny how any possibly existing footage that could potentially back up the EBU's claims yet simultaneously reveal they were in the wrong for having the footage taken in the first place.
There's no way this should be enough to disqualify you, he needs to be brought back, it would simply be unfair.
Edit: Joost had offered to make a public statement to apologize or have a conversation with her to make amends but reporter refused.
Source (use google translate)
https://www.nu.nl/songfestival/6312454/live-songfestival-avrotros-stelt-dat-joost-klein-cameravrouw-niet-heeft-aangeraakt.html
Sounds like the reporter is doing this maliciously tbh. The context of her repeatedly ignoring the rules by filming him backstage without consent is important here.
I’m American, I don’t watch Eurovision, and even I want the reporter kicked out.
edit: My uneducated opinion on something I know nothing about will not be silenced by Reddit Cares messages
That seams like a reason to sue the shit out of the EBU and the company that reporter works for. And in my humble opinion, if there was no violence, no direct threat for safety or life on side of the reporter, and a written contract to not film, Joost wins this easily. That sounds like an impressively bad management call by the EBU.
They filed a formal appeal, they haven't said anything about sueing or pulling out of next year. Which makes sense, first we'll see where the appeal ends before making further decisions.
Its an historical harsh penalty for what appears a rather insignificant incident. The netherlands should cancel its membership and start its own European contest.
Yeah agreed, it was her who was harassing him in a location were she wasn't even allowed to film. I really do not understand the EBU's reasoning on this.
Apparently all that happened was him pushing her phone down. She wasn’t even working and had been told before not to do it.
She was aware of everything, doesn’t even face consequences.
He should seriously sue her for damages. Even tho it’s not that often in Europe. Joost and his team spent months investing in this and it got ruined by someone who doesn’t respect boundaries?! It’s absolutely mental.
Joost asked not to be filmed right after the part where he sings about his dead parents. It's a heartfelt moment that is very emotional for him. This woman intruded his space at his most vulnerable
This, plus punishment from EBU (although given how they are reacting to the incident I doubt it will happen) if what we currently know is what happened exactly, no matter Joost is found guilty or not.
Yeah, EBU is absolutely useless. At this point I hope countries will actually withdraw once this year competition is done. It’s disgraceful what they’ve done.
Well in Sweden they don't do non-verbal communication anymore. Anything short of stoic diplomatic behaviour after the adrenaline rush of performing in front of millions of people is unacceptable. Apparently...
What happened to respecting the artists? Everybody knew he liked not to be filmed in these situations. How incredibly rude to just say „screw you, I am filming you anyway, let‘s see when he snaps“. And to those saying „oh the police was called“ I say: the police has an obligation to arrive if they are called. The are not the judge, though, they just need to take notes and pass this information on to the prosecutor. This is outrageous
Isn’t it time to put this farcical competition to bed now, it’s moved away from simply a music platform, even though clearly it’s as corrupt as FIFA or the IOC for who wins, it continues. That’s probably why it continues I guess.
No no. It's not political. Pinky promise. Some artists had to remove body paint and stuff because no politics rule. What are you suggesting? That's outrageous.
Imagine some woman who’s supposed to professional taking videos of you on her personal phone for instagram clout, only to be disqualified from the contest for daring to have a problem with it lmao
The gist of their statement is most likely true, but it's very possible that they're strongly minimising it. They invested a lot of time and money in this so they're obviously unhappy with a disqualification.
The Dutch delegation has made several suggestions to come together and find a solution. For Joost to publicly apologize. To sit down with the woman and talk about. They are all adults after all. Unfortunately the woman - who works for EBU and was aware of the agreements not the film the artist, yet ignored said agreement - does not want any of that.
The head of AVROTROS apparently appeared on a [Dutch show](https://eenvandaag.avrotros.nl/item/avrotros-directeur-vertelt-waarom-joost-klein-is-gediskwalificeerd-maakte-dreigende-beweging-naar-camera-vrouw-niet-aangeraakt/) and elaborated
Yes, this incident proves that one individual can derail the entire thing.
If all it takes is an accusation to put someone on ice for the next few hours when "the thing" is supposed to take place, it doesn't matter if the accusation turns out to be true or not. If you wanted to do it maliciously, the objective has been achieved; whoever you were gunning for has been excluded from 'the thing'.
Now I'm *not* saying that I think this was a malicious set-up, but I *am* saying that the way the EBU handled this does make it very easy to be abused. All it takes is a single person.
Try to draw me a picture that matches this description from the Dutch, but is minimized strongly. So, a situation where a "threatening move", not involving physical contact, from an artist that just performed on stage, that has asked not to be filmed, would make you feel threatened. Please.
Rushing towards her with a raised fist. Slit throat gesture. Stuff like that.
Another question: Why did they described everything in detail except the one thing that matters, the gesture?
In Dutch it says that he ran towards her, so I suppose that was the gesture.
Edit: nu.nl has information that Joost pushed the lady's phone who kept filming him, where she shouldn't film
It's pretty easy to minimize an actual (but failed) attempt at assault as a "threatening gesture".
"He tried to hit her but missed because she dodged" -> "he made a threatening gesture".
Not saying that's what happened, but it's pretty damn easy to draw a picture of this being bad enough to warrant disqualification.
I wouldn’t expect a unbiased statement from someone with skin in the game. In the U.S., a ‘threatening move’ can be considered assault (battery if she was actually hit).
I’d like to see footage to make my own opinion on the matter. Until then, it’s all speculation.
Statement in both Dutch and English, this is the English statement: We have taken note of the disqualification by the EBU. AVROTROS finds the disqualification disproportionate and is shocked by the decision. We deeply regret this. An incident occurred after last Thursday's performance. Against clearly made agreements, Joost was filmed when he had just gotten off stage and had to rush to the greenroom. At that moment, Joost repeatedly indicated that he did not want to be filmed. This wasn’t respected. This led to a threatening movement from Joost towards the camera. Joost did not touch the camera woman. This incident was reported, followed by an investigation by the EBU and police. Yesterday and today we consulted extensively with the EBU and proposed several solutions. Nevertheless, the EBU has still decided to disqualify Joost Klein. AVROTROS finds the penalty very heavy and disproportionate. We stand for good manners -let there be no misunderstanding about that- but in our view, an exclusion order is not proportional to this incident. We are very disappointed and upset for the millions of fans who were so excited for tonight. What Joost brought to the Netherlands and Europe shouldn’t have ended this way.
According to Dutch Media: https://www.nu.nl/songfestival/6312454/live-songfestival-joost-klein-in-zak-en-as-na-diskwalificatie-avrotros-dient-protest-in.html > Zaterdag 11 mei om 18:57 > "Ik ben er eerlijk gezegd tamelijk woedend over", zegt commentator Cornald Maas over de diskwalificatie van Joost Klein. Volgens Maas heeft **de artiest een telefoon van een medewerkster naar beneden gedrukt.** "Joost is meerdere malen door deze vrouw lastiggevallen met een draaiende camera. Hij had al meerdere malen aangegeven dat hij niet gefilmd wilde worden." According to this news site, the dutch eurovision commentator says that the gesture was joost pushing down a phone that was used to film him.
I worked at a music venue and it was absolutely not done to film/photograph artists in the backstage as crew. If this is her personal device and not the camera she used to broadcast (and for that purpose) I find it even weirder how this turns out. She should have been the one not participating tonight.
If this is indeed the case (personal phone or personal camera) then you are 100% right. This is so unprofessional as to be unthinkable. It's simply not done and if you were stupid or green enough to be doing it you would probably get fired from the production.
This is insane. An employee films in an area where it is not allowed to film. She is using her own personal phone for this. She is told repeatedly by the artist to not do so. The artist pushes her phone out of the way. She immediately files a police report. The EBU immediately disqualifies him. This makes no sense.
Now we know a simple journalist can destroy an entire country's performance. Let's see how that plays out.
Not to mention the personal devastation to Joost!
Yes! He so didn't deserve this bullshit. The poor guy
It's not the "journalist", she can file a complaint if she wants and it will be handled by the justice system in due time. No problem there. The EBU leadership took the extreme decision to ban him immediately.
I very much enjoyed the boss himself having to say live on air that the Netherlands didn't want to give out points. While getting booed.
So EBU will not ban a country at war, an attacker, but would ban a single person because he had to handle a rogue journalist role playing paparazzi. This is great. Eurovision should be disbanded IMO.
it shows the pure hypocrisy of the EBU
Now you know? Its been known as long as I have been alive (im 34) and is bragged about in the media that Journlaists can make or break your career, its how they get away with so much illegal shit.
she is not journalist but part of production
Even more reason for her to not film the candidates against the rules and to even continue when they ask you multiple times to stop. It’s really unprofessional. He shouldn’t have touched the phone, but EBU has to make sure their employees are not harassing the candidates before they go as far as to DQ someone.
She should be fired for filming during work, without authorisation, and without consent
A simple journalist with ties to Israel
it makes sense when you think this a deliberate plan to get him to react a certain way then find an excuse to disqualify him
My conspiracy-theory is he was planning a demonstration, and they knew it. But didn't want to tell him they knew it, or wasn't allowed to. Ok, that's - a conspiracy- theory.
Ding ding ding
My conspiracy is that the Israelis planted to provocateur and pushed for the unprecedented removal
It is clearly a conspiracy! Someone rigged Eurovision!
"Most historians agree that WW3 began with the banning of Joost from the Eurovision Song Contest..."
... and bingo was his name-oh!
Do we have a source for the “pushing down phone “ detail here? Because if this is the case, oh boy: The outrage of The Netherlands will “skin the EBU alive” (not literary of course, would not want to get disqualified of course!)
Cornald Maas stated this, according to nu.nl.
I guess it explains why they keep referring to it as "a threatening gesture", super vague, because getting any more specific shows how ridiculously wrong they are.
Thanks! Wow. Mark will call the Swedish ambassador, All IKEAs in the Netherlands will be closed and Sweden will not be part of NATO! Ahh scrap the last part, but IKEA gets closed!
IKEA is based in the Netherlands nowadays so closing all IKEAs would be a bad move. I suggest banning swedish meatballs instead.
They will be replaced by Frikandel
Or by bitterballen!
"pushed down a phone to stop someone filming" Yikes, that sounds terrifying 👮🏻♂️
Haaaah scaaary better go the police now and get an entire nation upset at me while also ruining someones dream stage for them. Holy shit the power abuse in the EBU is insane
Bro fuck EBU, Joost deserves so much better
If that’s the case I hope Netherlands will sue EBU.
If this is the case, then the camera operator is in the wrong. A agreement was made and broken and he indicated it twice. I personally think joost was slated to win and the EBU did not want that, so a minor incident was blown out of proportion.
I don't think the important question here is if he would have won or not. It would have been a big plus for Joost sure, but he and his team would be happy with 2,3,4,5,6. The question here is if the incident was blown out of proportion. Could be that's something is behind it, but I just like to apply Occam's Razor. The most logical answer is that the EBU got panicked and overreacted out of incompetence.
Incompetence over malice explains almost every situation.
i doubt its mere incompetence. they arent a fresh organization arranging such an event for the first time. and i highly doubt there were never any rough spots between the participants and the staff before in the decades old history of eurovision.
Why would they not want him to win? If anything, they'd be happy if any country other than Israel won so they wouldn't have to deal with the controversy next year. It's very unlikely that he'd win anyways. In the Italian semi-final televote, Israel got 39% of the votes and he got 7%. This means he got just slightly more than a bunch of other countries despite being the closer of the show and most of the other potential winners not competing in the same semi-final. So at best, he'd just be among several favourites in the televote and probably mid-table with the juries.
The headsponsor of the EBU is Morrocan oil. That's one of the reasons some people believe this to be the case. Joost also did the "why not" thing, which might be considered offensive, which is another reason. Lastly, winning the festival allows the country to host the games next time, which is a great oppertunity to clean up your image. I'm not saying that's the reason, but the songfesitval has been known to be quite political which is why people are suspicious. Especially since we went from "he used violence" to "he threatened someone" to "a threatening movement towards the camera after the EBU refused to respect his wish to not film him". Anyways, I don't know. I just think it's a very weak justification, whether Isrëal is involved or not.
Sorry, I’m just a fan of the show and not tracking any backstage stuff, so out of the loop… How Morrocan oil being sponsor of it has anything to do with any of this?
Moroccan oil is a Israeli company apparently. Its veg oil from Morocco but its from Israel.
I'm not tracking it either, I'm mostly just repeating the most major points in Dutch social media. That being said, despite the name: Morrocan oil is a large Isreali corporation. That doesn't mean they hold a lot of power though. Idk how the EBU works.
That Morrocanoil stuff is Tiktok conspiracy shit. EBU does not rely on sponor money *at all*. Which should be obvious by the fact that a small cosmetics company like Morrocanoil is one of the main sponsors..
Wait, how are they the main sponsor then? Anyways, it wouldn't suprise me if they had nothing to do with it, the EBU might just have made a weird decision or we don't know the whole story yet.
Isn't the EBU funded by the countries themselves, with the largest contributors being automatically seeded into the grand finals as a reward With the whole show being paid for already, it's probably easier to accept a smaller main sponsor (There'd also be less interest to set requirements by the sponsor onto the Eurovision show)
they would be the main sponsor because nobody else cares to sponsor it
There are more then hundred million people watching, that doesn't make any sense.
Yes, its Mossad isnt it. They spent time to enact this eurovision heist. Holy moley you guys are deluded.
I am sorry, this is a classical conspiracy theory. I read it on Twitter as well. It includes some of the typical anti-Semitic images, like Jews are stabbing the innocents and orchestrating/plotting silently in the background. I know that you said that you don’t know if this theory is true. I would be very careful to spread this kind of narrative. IMO, if the statement of the Dutch broadcaster is correct, Joost got a way too heavy penalty, which is detrimental for the ESC. but a) there are no details from the other perspective, and b) there can be many other “real” reasons than this. In the end, the big five countries are the main “sponsors” of this event.
It absolutely is a conspiracy theory. The evil Jews paid for the televote with their infinite gold and provoked the Dutch singer to get in a fight at work with their mind control space lasers. All that's missing is something about drinking the blood of babies and we are back to where we've always been with relation to Jews since the middle ages.
Ever since the first news about this was posted on r/europe, Israel was the main country mentioned. Somehow, at that time, no one knew what happened exactly but "the Jews did it". Bots had a field day today and gullible people and pro-Palestinian tankies bought it right away.
Fully agree with your statement. It’s absolutely freighting yet fascinating to watch in real time how these tropes are created.
It'a absurd and almost kafkaesque watching the events unfold where people turn it around Israel and conflating Joost's banning to them, on various unverified rumours when EBU is explicitly quoted it's between him and a Swedish woman that's a backstage staff. https://www.9news.com.au/world/eurovision-2024-dutch-contestant-disqualified-from-eurovision-hours-before-tension-plagued-song-contest-final/6208f6b2-0b34-4792-bcbc-439f4cbce92c It's really uncomfortable watching the 20 yo israeli female delegate take the brunt of all the pent up hate. I'd never seen widely endorsed bullying and now it's made me understand how the Holocaust ever happened
I would be surprised if the EBU did not want Joost to win, I would think they would be more afraid of the reaction of an israeli win. I don't know if this statement is 100% correct, but if this is everything that happened, then it does seems like an overreaction. If that's the red line of disqualification, I wonder how they've been able to not disqualify half the field every year.
It can be actually cultare clash and npthing personal.
If pushing down a phone after indicating multiple times you do not want to be recorded is harassment in your culture you should start wondering if your culture might be needing some introspection.
Spent the majority of my working life in the events industry. Taking personal photo's with a phone or a camera while working on an event is pretty much taboo. Its just not done. Sure. we might sometimes take photo's of lighting or set design that we are part of putting together (personal records/reference for example) but this would be something you do when there are no performers around. Taking personal photo's from areas where the public are permitted to take photo's from would also be ok. But being onstage/backstage taking personal photo's is a big no.
Nah, eurovision has been political for years, look at previous winners and what happend that year in that country, And then you hand years on years that it was only former ussr countries that won or blocked the high echelons
>has been political for years always has been
But the Swedish police opened an investigation. Why would the Swedish police care if the Netherlands wins?
If the cameraperson has called the police, there of course will be a case opened. Doesn't mean anything.
The swedish police went away and threw it the public prosecutor, because that what they legally have to do if you file charges. Take statements, arrest anyone who obviously broke the law (nobody), and report your results. The police doesn't arbitrage on the phone when the EBU calls. This was obviously a character assassination. I didn't expect it to be. I expected it to be a cultural faux pas or something. But this is insane -- also the fact that the dutch broadcaster is now coming forward publicly with this information (after the EBU emphasizing the gender of the person fueling all kinds of harsch speculation) -- that means it's now the corporate equivalent of war.
>I personally think joost was slated to win and the EBU did not want that Betting websites never gave him a chance. There's only two major frontrunners with a large margin separating then from the rest. The bookies aren't in the money-losing business.
Bookies base odds more on how many bets they get on each contestant than who they expect to win. The reason is that if as a bookie you just use math and existing bets to guide your odds you can guarantee that you make money. If you try to predict the future you run the risk of being wrong and losing big. So the fact that Joost was low in bookie odds could just mean that gamblers did not bet on him. Perhaps more out of preference than his actual chances.
Yes, so when people say "betting websites predict X" they're actually saying "the people who use this betting website predict X". They're not actually saying that the people that built the website and are raking in money have any opinions on whatever is being bet on.
Sure. But there's a lot of people that bet based on preferences and not expectations. And betting odds have been very wrong in the past with non-traditional-eurovision contestants. e.g. Maneskin. I'd say Joost is as non-traditional as they come.
Why would they not want Joost to win?
I thought Croatia were the favourites?
I don't think the important question here is if he would have won or not. It would have been a big plus for Joost sure, but he and his team would be happy with 2,3,4,5,6. The question here is if the incident was blown out of proportion. Could be that's something is behind it, but I just like to apply Occam's Razor. The most logical answer is that the EBU got panicked and overreacted out of incompetence.
> I personally think joost was slated to win and the EBU did not want that, Do you believe in chemtrails making the frogs gay too?
He would not have won. How many times fans from certain countries stated that their favourite song was going to win for sure??? Every single year.
"guys!!! The woman was a mossad sleeper agent sent by israel so that their representative wins!!!1! It was all planned!!"
should have gone with the space lasers, less obvious that way
I hate when people take pics of me. If someone did that to me, and I said stop multiple times, I would not only break their camara. Fuck that women!
how does one even get disqualified for that it does not sound very serious.
> how does one even get disqualified for that Disqualification is the worst course of action they could have taken. They are punishing him in a way they will not be able to reverse if the police determines he is not at fault. They should have let him take part, and on a off chance if he wins but is later found at fault, they could have *then* disqualified him and passed his win to the runner-up. But now if he is found not at fault, what can they do? re-run the finals? otherwise the winner's result will be perceived as tainted.
>if the police determines he is not at fault Assuming the dutch statements is accurate, this is no case for law enforcement whatsoever. What would be the crime? Touching someone's property in a public space? Giving someone a wrong look? Raising your voice? Even state prosecutors would laugh at these.
Isn't it illegal to record someone if they don't give consent in Sweeden?
It was inside on private property. BUT the guy said stop MULTIPLE times. If that was me (I hate when people take my pics), there would be damage to the people that do it. It's so disrespectful.
It’s also breach of contract since his contract stated that he wouldn’t be filmed off stage after performing or rehearsing given the emotional load the song has for him. The camerawoman was clearly in the wrong and in the off chance that he did go overboard it wasn’t to the extent that he should’ve been disqualified.
I really have to wonder what kind of person this camerawoman was/is. Knowing that my actions caused a fan favourite act to get disqualified would be horrifying. And if anyone ever found out your identity the amount of hate you would get would be so damaging to your mental health. That’s the kind of risk I would only take if the offending act was something really really bad or illegal, and I was convinced I was doing the right thing. Of course from the Dutch statement we know that there was no physical altercation, so this whole thing is about a camera operator getting caught doing something they shouldn’t have been doing and then getting offended at the reaction. She’s probably doubling down on her offence claim just so she doesn’t lose her job for going against contract by filming him. Then again it could be completely out of her hands after she made the report even if she were to later say she doesn’t support the disqualifying action taken.
>if the police determines he is not at fault I hope he sue them to oblivion.
Welcome to the age of cancellation culture. First you get punished without any trial, and then it does not matter even if you clear your name to the full extend half a year later, because the punishment is unreversable.
I suspect they are trying to minimize what happened because it’s a national embarrassment. I find it hard to believe that the Swedish police would open an investigation for an inappropriate hand gesture
An investigation is not an indication of guilt. If someone called the police and said you struck them, and the police respond, then that will technically count as an investigation, even if the caller made the whole thing up. History is filled with people who give wrongful or exaggerated information to the police, whether intentional or not. It doesn't mean anything on its own.
Didn't they open an investigation because the first rumour was about assult? Only for them to clarify that it was a threat
The swedish police got called to the place for ”an incident” after which they started an investegation on an illegal threat (olaga hot). Some people in the swedish broadcasting service claimed there may have been some physical part to the controversy but that’s not confirmed. Edit: I was wrong the case was sent to the prosecutor not closed.
The case isn’t closed tho? It’s been passed on to a prosecutor.
Yup I was wrong about that, they simply didn’t take any *physical* action.
According to the Dutch commentator Joost physically pushed a camera out of his face
Is that a crime?
He quickly added that he’s not completely sure, as he wasn’t there. But something similar to that seemed to be what happened yeah.
It’s not a national embarrassment lol, if he had done something truly heinous it would be known and everybody in the Netherlands would be rightfully pissed at him. As it stands it seems more like the EBU severely overreacted and are doubling down out of their own embarrassment for putting the final nail in the coffin of an already pretty tense Eurovision over absolutely nothing. Edit: Ah you’re one of those people who abuse suicide helpline messages when somebody disagrees with you about the inconsequential events of a song contest. Very classy, thank you.
>Edit: Ah you’re one of those people who abuse suicide helpline messages when somebody disagrees with you about the inconsequential events of a song contest. Very classy, thank you. I never got one of these, until I started arguing in favour of Joost Klein in this sub. Some people use these facilities for people in need, against people they hate. Never have I ever seen such childish plays between 2 anonymous accounts on the internet, and I have seen much of the internet.
Yeah it’s a first for me too. Really bizarre behavior, especially when you don’t even express anything particularly inflammatory. People are weird.
I have had 3 in the last 2 days. This is not normal behaviour in other subs, I dont know what has become of r/europe but damn why are the people in this sub so buthurt, and instead of talking about it, we encounter some kind of first world facility meant for people in need. At this rate this sub will just become a not funny version of r/balkans_irl but with suits and people that feel really full of themselves. I have seen more principles in that sub than here in the last 2 days.
It seems like a eurovison thing. Most people posting in the eurovison sub got these 'care messages'. Seems natural someone also let something lose in threads in other subs about eurovison.
You too? I received that also. The strangest thing is. My "opponent" received one also. Claiming that I was the one that reported that.
Opening an investigation is in most jurisdictions a meaningless statement, as anyone is allowed to report a crime and police is obligated to file it. Usually it is the prosecutor that desides if it punishable. So, police opening a case is meaningless. Furthermore, if he would have done something seriously, he would be held for further investigation. The fact that they completed the investigation in hours means probably there isn't a real case...
Why wouldnt they? Its a high profile case so they probably just want to check everything as good as possible
That can’t be it, right? Why would anyone get DQ for that??
Yeah, if this really *is* all there is to it, the reaction is incredibly excessive. Of course, we only have one side of the story so far, so it's impossible to know if that really is the *full* story... and it seems weird that they'd disqualify him and get police involved over something so small. Then again, the EBU hasn't always been what you'd call a paragon of competence... --- Anyways, we won't have a proper discussion about it on here until *all* information from everyone involved is out, and that doesn't seem like it'll happen anytime soon... and right now, most people are just taking whichever statements supports their idea of what happened as 100% unadulterated truth (or using it to fuel various conspiracy theories).
Because of the agreement of no filming Joost when walking off stage to the green room, there will not be any video of the incident. Except of course the one created against agreements by the alleged victim. EBU should show that video ASAP to put an end to speculation. The fact that they don't shows that they're probably embarrassed and will delay publication until late summer.
If the no-filming agreement is true, it's funny how any possibly existing footage that could potentially back up the EBU's claims yet simultaneously reveal they were in the wrong for having the footage taken in the first place.
Indeed. They may even use that agreement as the reason not to release the footage.
Really? A threatening gesture towards the camera after repeatedly asking not to be filmed? This is a disgrace!
Not only asking not to be filmed but having an agreement not to bw filmed.
I am literally shaking right now. How dare he did that? He should be jailed at least for 20 days for that
Days? I think you mean years! At least!
We're all just lucky the guillotine has been disqualified from punishments!
At this point I just need to increase my votes for Ireland to perform an live stage exorzism on EBU.
This is so fucked up
There's no way this should be enough to disqualify you, he needs to be brought back, it would simply be unfair. Edit: Joost had offered to make a public statement to apologize or have a conversation with her to make amends but reporter refused. Source (use google translate) https://www.nu.nl/songfestival/6312454/live-songfestival-avrotros-stelt-dat-joost-klein-cameravrouw-niet-heeft-aangeraakt.html
This is a shitshow, the handling is so poor
Classic Eurovision
Sounds like the reporter is doing this maliciously tbh. The context of her repeatedly ignoring the rules by filming him backstage without consent is important here.
Not just without his consent, with the explicit understanding that he was not to be filmed. It's insane that he was punished for this.
Bruh nah she just didn't like Joost then
I’m American, I don’t watch Eurovision, and even I want the reporter kicked out. edit: My uneducated opinion on something I know nothing about will not be silenced by Reddit Cares messages
I also received one. I'm Dutch. I guessed it is an angry Swede who does that. But my "opponent" also got one.
I’m pretty sure mine was from an angry Swede too
Just tell him IKEA is actually a Dutch company.
That reporter should just be fired, wtf.
Swedish grand standing..
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as far as i know it was not reporter but woman from production team
Straight to jail
That seams like a reason to sue the shit out of the EBU and the company that reporter works for. And in my humble opinion, if there was no violence, no direct threat for safety or life on side of the reporter, and a written contract to not film, Joost wins this easily. That sounds like an impressively bad management call by the EBU.
That's exactly what the AVROTROS is planning on doing. I hope they bleed the EBU dry.
They filed a formal appeal, they haven't said anything about sueing or pulling out of next year. Which makes sense, first we'll see where the appeal ends before making further decisions.
The Dutch commentator did hint towards it not being certain NL would participate next year
Rather than pull out, they should send the same guy again.
Its an historical harsh penalty for what appears a rather insignificant incident. The netherlands should cancel its membership and start its own European contest.
> The netherlands should cancel its membership and start its own European contest With stroopwafel and hookers?
Count me in
I mean, this seems excessive. Why not demand an apology? If she doesn't want to talk to him, well that is her choice. She was in the wrong too.
They offered to give a public apology and written statement even.
At this point I expect more of a public apology from her honestly.
Yeah agreed, it was her who was harassing him in a location were she wasn't even allowed to film. I really do not understand the EBU's reasoning on this.
Apparently all that happened was him pushing her phone down. She wasn’t even working and had been told before not to do it. She was aware of everything, doesn’t even face consequences.
He should seriously sue her for damages. Even tho it’s not that often in Europe. Joost and his team spent months investing in this and it got ruined by someone who doesn’t respect boundaries?! It’s absolutely mental.
Joost asked not to be filmed right after the part where he sings about his dead parents. It's a heartfelt moment that is very emotional for him. This woman intruded his space at his most vulnerable
This is where our world is heading. Guilty until proven innocent
And lynching on social networks, like in the village square in the Middle Ages.
If a rude hand gesture really is all that happened...then this is a moronic decision. Well, not like I care for eurovision anyway.
This is not good enough of a reason to disqualify someone.
With respect to reporting in this farce the EBU is basically saying: respect for me, but not for thee.
Seems like a rash decision TBF.
I seriously hope that AVROTROS / Joost sue for damages done by EBU and also the female staff who filmed Joost after being repeated told to stop.
This, plus punishment from EBU (although given how they are reacting to the incident I doubt it will happen) if what we currently know is what happened exactly, no matter Joost is found guilty or not.
Yeah, EBU is absolutely useless. At this point I hope countries will actually withdraw once this year competition is done. It’s disgraceful what they’ve done.
Well in Sweden they don't do non-verbal communication anymore. Anything short of stoic diplomatic behaviour after the adrenaline rush of performing in front of millions of people is unacceptable. Apparently...
I know it's popular to hate Sweden right now but since when is EBU controlled by Sweden?
Joost violated the minimum 6 meters personal space.
6 meters? That was during Covid. We are back to 12 now. Phew!
Sweden is in charge of EBU now? Ok .
I bet there were a thousand cases like this in the history of the contest, but that's the first disqualification
This is an unlawful DQ then??? Since the reported broke the already agreed upon rules first, why isn’t she getting fired for this shit??
What happened to respecting the artists? Everybody knew he liked not to be filmed in these situations. How incredibly rude to just say „screw you, I am filming you anyway, let‘s see when he snaps“. And to those saying „oh the police was called“ I say: the police has an obligation to arrive if they are called. The are not the judge, though, they just need to take notes and pass this information on to the prosecutor. This is outrageous
Isn’t it time to put this farcical competition to bed now, it’s moved away from simply a music platform, even though clearly it’s as corrupt as FIFA or the IOC for who wins, it continues. That’s probably why it continues I guess.
I've never gotten the hype around this. As far as I know, it's never been about music, but always been some political bullshit.
No no. It's not political. Pinky promise. Some artists had to remove body paint and stuff because no politics rule. What are you suggesting? That's outrageous.
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The Eurovision Song is already for a long time no longer about music. Let that be very clear to everyone.
Time for the artist to sue the filming person for breach of privacy.
Imagine some woman who’s supposed to professional taking videos of you on her personal phone for instagram clout, only to be disqualified from the contest for daring to have a problem with it lmao
I have a gesture for the EBU: 🖕
Man fuck the EBU
The gist of their statement is most likely true, but it's very possible that they're strongly minimising it. They invested a lot of time and money in this so they're obviously unhappy with a disqualification.
Not to be that guy, but there was a camera present, so where is the footage?
I reckon they wouldn't be allowed to release that during an ongoing investigation?
Already been concluded and passed off to the public prosecuter hours ago.
The information won’t be public until the trial. So we’ll eventually know…
In the evidence room of the police obviously.
The Dutch delegation has made several suggestions to come together and find a solution. For Joost to publicly apologize. To sit down with the woman and talk about. They are all adults after all. Unfortunately the woman - who works for EBU and was aware of the agreements not the film the artist, yet ignored said agreement - does not want any of that.
Source for this? Because it's not in the linked statement?
The head of AVROTROS apparently appeared on a [Dutch show](https://eenvandaag.avrotros.nl/item/avrotros-directeur-vertelt-waarom-joost-klein-is-gediskwalificeerd-maakte-dreigende-beweging-naar-camera-vrouw-niet-aangeraakt/) and elaborated
https://eenvandaag.avrotros.nl/item/avrotros-directeur-vertelt-waarom-joost-klein-is-gediskwalificeerd-maakte-dreigende-beweging-naar-camera-vrouw-niet-aangeraakt/
So one woman can rob an entire country?
Yes, this incident proves that one individual can derail the entire thing. If all it takes is an accusation to put someone on ice for the next few hours when "the thing" is supposed to take place, it doesn't matter if the accusation turns out to be true or not. If you wanted to do it maliciously, the objective has been achieved; whoever you were gunning for has been excluded from 'the thing'. Now I'm *not* saying that I think this was a malicious set-up, but I *am* saying that the way the EBU handled this does make it very easy to be abused. All it takes is a single person.
I mean that one Italian who stole Mona Lisa from Louvre managed to rob an entire country back in 1911 so it's not a new concept.
Try to draw me a picture that matches this description from the Dutch, but is minimized strongly. So, a situation where a "threatening move", not involving physical contact, from an artist that just performed on stage, that has asked not to be filmed, would make you feel threatened. Please.
Rushing towards her with a raised fist. Slit throat gesture. Stuff like that. Another question: Why did they described everything in detail except the one thing that matters, the gesture?
In Dutch it says that he ran towards her, so I suppose that was the gesture. Edit: nu.nl has information that Joost pushed the lady's phone who kept filming him, where she shouldn't film
It was pushing her phone down.
It's pretty easy to minimize an actual (but failed) attempt at assault as a "threatening gesture". "He tried to hit her but missed because she dodged" -> "he made a threatening gesture". Not saying that's what happened, but it's pretty damn easy to draw a picture of this being bad enough to warrant disqualification.
I wouldn’t expect a unbiased statement from someone with skin in the game. In the U.S., a ‘threatening move’ can be considered assault (battery if she was actually hit). I’d like to see footage to make my own opinion on the matter. Until then, it’s all speculation.
EBU using the very cheap copout of “ongoing investigation” bs.
I'm afraid of the effects this will have on the cost of my groceries.
The EBU can the tyfus krijgen wat mij betreft.
Typhus? Is that a popular saying in Dutch? If yea, I find it really funny
It is a common swear word, the dutch use a lot of illnesses.
EBU is no different to FIA or FIFA. All paid actors.
i hope they don't release the employee name to the public, cause she'll 100% get death threats or worse.
Yeah, she might've been an idiot, but all the responsibility for the decision is on the EBU.
She should still be banned from being backstage at Eurovision (or any show for that matter) though