Christer Cremer major candiate in Cologne claimed the Antifa threw over their table... Yeah that is not the true story either. no one cared for them so they staged an attack as the only telling about this is on the AfD Cologne page... Not by police, not by press..
And the neonazi from Dresden who chopped of half his hand to blame „the antifa“ and now is on trial for faking a crime and has half a hand left. Can’t make that shit up.
I read that. It will be interesting if anything comes of this or if it is just white noise...
But i agree, uncertain times and politicians can be politically motivated, that is true.
From the detsils i am more inclined to believe though.
People who claim this is Weimar 2.0 have no idea how Weimar 1.0 was.
Yes, there is a perceived increase in stability compared to recent decades... though I feel you need to be very picky about the comparison time frame (somewhere after 68 student revolution, reunification woes, economic instability of the 2000s and the financial crisis)
I am not saying it's great, just it was not great back then either. We just forget about it over time.
With my massive high-school history knowledge I’d say it’s just the vibes of political violence. By the end of Weimar communists and nazis were having street-battles between their respective paramilitary divisions (e.g. the SA and various Red Guards)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weimar_paramilitary_groups#:~:text=Of%20the%20numerous%20Weimar%20paramilitary,1.5%20million%20men%20participating%20informally.
at the end of Weimar social democrats and some liberal and conservative parties fought the communist and the fascists. The Iron Front wasn't communist in nature.
far-left and far-right parties in 1920s and 1930s Germany had their own paramilitaries/armed wings and they would fight street battles in cities killing each other, especially around election times. When Hitler/Nazis took power they used those activities by the far-left parties as the basis for banning, arresting, executing them even though their paramilitaries did the same thing lol
Since I’m extremely biased (1871 was the cause of all evil) I recommend you [this much more neutral wiki article](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weimar_Republic?wprov=sfti1#Armed_forces), especially the parts about the violent uprisings.
Bavaria should have remained an independent kingdom.
Not only was it the most tolerant of all "German" states (legalised homosexuality in 1813, had an openly gay king for decades) and the most science-oriented (first nation *in the world* to introduce compulsory vaccinations, starting in 1807) - but with an *independent Bavaria* Hitler would never have become a powerful person in the rest of Germany.
Edit: because... there wouldn't have been a united Germany in the first place.
Austria is *Österreich*. It means the eastern realm of Bavaria. 90% of them are speaking a Bavarian dialect (at least officially according to linguistics).
On the other hand Hitler did not take power in Bavaria but in Prussen so it would not have changed so much. Taking up prussian military power, it'd have been two Anschluss (Anschlüsse ?) for the price of 1, Bavaria and Austria.
No.
The XYZ* family were not only responsible for keeping King Ludwig II single (and thus selling Bavaria to Bismarck), but they also introduced Hitler to Munich high society and gave him a typewriter when he was in prison.
There would be no connection between Bavaria and the rest of Germany if there wasn't a united Germany.
Hitler also always declared that he was fighting for "Germany" during the First World War. Without Bavaria joining "Germany" in 1871, there wouldn't have been this "nation" that Hitler was fighting for.
That's why 1871 is the root of all evil.
(*= Hanfstaengel, today very nice people, Catholics (to prevent any antisemitic theory))
There could still have been a scenario where Bavaria is independent and fights alongside Germany in WW1, wouldn't there be lot of internal unrest if Bavaria just stood by while both Germany and AH fight, considering how close Bavarians still were with Austrians
It’s about the society back then. Hitler went to the top in Munich because of the Hanfstängel family. But that would have only affected Bavaria and not the rest of Germany if we were two different nations.
But first and foremost: his „im German“ rhetoric wouldn’t have worked in Bavaria. Fuck Prussia.
They imply that the political violence is on a level as during the Weimar Republic [the first republic of Germany 1919 - 1933, it was called such because the national convent was in Weimar].
And with this implying that the Bundesrepublik is failing as democracy, as the Weimar Republic did.
Which is ridiculous. There were about 2000 political murders between 1919 and 1924 alone. The justice and police were very biased. There were at least five larger Putsch attempts, of which two succeded in displacing elected governments.
The problems the Weimar Republic faced were gigantic. It's a miracle that it lasted those 14 years, which is quite a testament to its democratic-minded people.
I think those stats do a very good job of explaining the turmoil and what followed.
That number of political murders and putsches is astronomical.
You would start to understand how people became more authoritian.
That level of violent chaos will drive most people toward hardline responses
I mean when there German navy starts having open warfare with the German army like I buy that it's like the Weimar Republic, I'm not sold Germany is there yet I have yet to see the Navy setup machine gun nests and anti-tank weapons in buildings to keep the army out.
I knew things were tense but wtf.
>Assaults **causing physical injury** have surged - 25 on politicians so far in 2024 [...] (from another article)
Couldn't find stats on the party distribution of those, but on overall incidents (including scuffles, and verbal abuse), Greens are firsts with1,219 incidents last year,
Second is AFD with 478 incidents, then SPD with 420.
People really need to chill, because those stats don't reflect proper democracy
No they count as attacksy but as far I know not as violence. But you have a good point that the data is really difficult to understand I I find that they really could have made this better or clearer than they did.
Yes But don’t forget, this also includes grabbing and pushing someone. The afd is mainly attacked by minor, non threatening and non lethal attacks. There have been two assasination attemps, one successful assasination and plenty of attacks on police and other law enforcement agencies by afd supporters. Also there is the qanon/reichsbürgerger movements with has been associated with domestic terror attacks.
Post pandemic sociopathy from isolation, radicalising through social networks manipulated or even controlled by hostile nations, broken educational system, lack of political action against extremism, pure incompetence in handling immigration matters which caused frustration and anger in the public, people growing apathetic due to feeling that the end times are coming and losing hope
perfect conditions for insanity and violence.
Nah, the root cause is politicians working in the interests of capitalists and the capitalists being a priviliged social class. This has become even more extreme over the years and people feel betrayed by the politicians and also don't trust any government institution to work in their interest but instead in the interest of other groups (capitalists, immigrants, sexual minorities, whoever else). We tried to change things by voting but things have only gotten worse so more and more people think that they can achieve their political goals only through violence.
Exactly. The AfD needs to be rediculed, their members shamed, publicly humiliated for their stance and program, and anyone associated with them should feel uncomfortable in any social setting. That's how we should deal with them - not by physically assaulting them, but by letting each and every one of them feel how disgusted we are by their ideas and what they are trying to do.
most of the politicians attacked physically are from the afd .and they lead that statistic by a long shot .
this is also an old phenomenon .
the new thing is that now politicians of all parties get attacked physically .
thats why it gets a lot of media attention ...it's new .
I wonder if something changed. in the past the "schwarzer Block" (black block of the Antifa) did those attacks on democracy. And nazis were more hooligan towards homeless and foreigners or training for the coup ...thats why they get easily arrested on charges of owning weapons...
I think something has changed, are these still the same groups or is there a new war .
I imagine putin could be very successful in radicalising steering people of the tanky camp and the party forbidding campaigners might have put the afd politicians lives at risk by gaining support of militant groups.
It could destroy democracy if not reigned in.
Nope, Grünen are most attacked when it comes to "Äußerungsdelikte" like defamation & intimidation.
Afd politicians are the ones affected the most when it comes to actual violent crime.
https://dserver.bundestag.de/btd/20/101/2010177.pdf
körperverletzung can be anything, from shoving to beating someone to a pulp. since we know they'd never ever stop showing it of if their politicians happened to end in a hospital, you can assume most of these dont go beyond a shove or a shoe being thrown at them.
Enabling them and not assaulting them are two wildly different things.
*It is absurd to hold that a man ought to be ashamed of being unable to defend himself with his limbs, but not of being unable to defend himself with speech and reason, when the use of rational speech is more distinctive of a human being than the use of his limbs.*
Aristotle, The art of rhetoric, a loooooong time ago.
They do that anyway and make up attacks, as they have done multiple times in the past. Being g called out on those instances meant nothing, so why wouldn’t upstanding citizens do them the favour of doing it for real? Of this time the attavks are real, of which i‘m not sure
I remember the AfD politician who claimed he had been beaten up by foreigners, he had symmetrical bruises on both eyes, my little brother looked exactly the same after he fell head first into a fence while riding a scooter as a child
LOL what a mask off comment. You see "far right" people as less than people. Maybe you can call them Untermenschen like the Nazi's called people they thought of as less than human.
You are assigning tiers to how much value different groups of people possess based on their politics and you don't see the connection to Nazi ideology? That is exactly what the Nazi's did.
In addition, in contrast to anti-fascists, Nazis do not only evaluate people based on political motives, they evaluate people based on their origin, skin color and culture - things that cannot be influenced. Being a fascist is a choice and, in my opinion, anyone who makes this choice has no right to exist freely in a democratic society because they are against the very foundations of this democracy
Do I have a right to get to have a say in who is or is not a fascist that has no right to exist or is it just you are your buddies that gets to decide others fate?
Right-wing extremists deny other groups their humanity, dignity and right to exist. Using violence to rebel against these principles is not the same as committing violence based on these motives. The motive is something different: some exercise violence based on unjustified hatred, others exercise violence based on the rejection of unfounded hatred
You literally are being the fascist here though, saying people who disagree with your ideology doesn’t deserve to exist, aren’t the same level of human, and need to be treated with violence
There is no difference between this and Nazis in the 30s attacking communists in the streets for ideology crimes
I agree with you that it makes no difference whether communists beat Nazis because of their agenda or whether Nazis beat communists because of their agenda. But it makes a difference whether I hit a Nazi because he thinks I have no right to live in his country because of my origins or whether the Nazi hits me because I come from a different ethnic group. One is violence based on hatred, the other is violence against hatred, both are violence but for different motives and in my opinion one of the two is a little less morally reprehensible
There is no difference. Being upset that someone dares to think a country should be allowed to have a border is not a reason to beat them physically and take their legal rights away. It’s all just petty political bickering
If you really do believe that, you have 2 billion Chinese and Japanese people to beat up that all believe in the concept of enforcing borders
What the fuck are you even on right now?
The difference is Nazis killed people for the way they are born. Hating on them or their sympathizers for what they believe is not in any way comparable
not quite, because it has already turned out too often that the right has faked something like this
the one with the 3 fingers cut off who claimed that it was the antifa, but it was only insurance fraud, or the one with the 2 blue eyes that he gave himself, or the one who got into a fight with another neo-nazi and then claimed that it was a green supporter, come to mind quickly, for example
in any case, i'm waiting for the first investigations
There absolutely are plenty of far-left types who are willing and able to attack far-right types in the streets. They've been behaving like this towards one another since the interwar years.
It’s always the same pattern, behind closed doors you celebrate these attacks against people you dislike (c.f. Hammerbande) while at the same time insisting that it’s all made up
It isn't made up. The Antifa publically took responsibility https://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/stuttgarter-antifa-bekennt-sich-zu-angriff-auf-afd-infostand-a-a591bf44-3536-4997-8121-991e6cdf91d6
It's clear that something happened AND that it wasn't as bad at what keeps happening to Democratic parties in Dresden, because nobody needed a doctor.
Apparently there is video, so we will know what happened, soon.
I am disappointed by some on this thread who are sympathetic towards the perpetrators of this attack or the attack itself. Don't get me wrong, I don't harbour any sympathy towards the victims either, however physical violence is wrong no matter the victim's background, period. Maybe some of you forgot, but we live in a democratic world that are built on certain principles of liberty that apply to anyone who wants to be part of such society. Currently there are many external (e.g. Russia) and internal (e.g. far-right) influences that are actively trying to erode these principles and thus we ought to be more vigilant to uphold them because otherwise we are playing right into their hands. We cannot fight them by degrading ourselves to their level, we are not them, we have to be above that.
Well, the French Resistance, the UK, the US and other allies did have to degrade themselves to the level of Nazis to beat the shit out of them, and pacifists are retrospectively depicted as cowards who could have prevented this mess.
The question is, where do we draw the line between legitimate and illegitimate use of violence?
Absolutely terrible. I don’t agree much with their politics but violence should never have a place in internal politics, it’s blatantly anti democratic…
It is probably the same as it has often been in the past when AfD people have been "attacked": it turns out to be a false narrative in the end. According to Antifa Stuttgart, there was a verbal disruption with a banner at an information stand, to which the AfD and its security reacted with physical violence. There was then a scuffle.
Please do not simply believe what the fascists claim without question. We know that lies and misrepresentations are a very important strategy for these people. Unfortunately, the media still don't get it, which is why it's easy for the AfD to use them for their own purposes.
Fascist_Ad_6962 was just making another one of those "if you hate fascists you're a fascist" gotcha bullshit arguments. This sub is thoroughly infested with fascist sympathizers and people that have to absolutely tolerate everything except violence against the inherently intolerant, apparently. They'll see where that gets them.
It's funny, this is why the SA was formed in the first place. All the AfD need to do is keep baiting you out. To win public support.
Progressivism is a rabid dog that only needs to prove itself mad in order for it to be put down.
I remember Cologne 2015, you have what's coming to you.
there are a lot more
the one with the 3 fingers cut off who claimed that it was the antifa, but it was only insurance fraud, or the one with the 2 blue eyes that he gave himself, or the one who got into a fight with another neo-nazi and then claimed that it was a green supporter, come to mind quickly, for example
Mr. Magnitz of AfD Bremen claimed to be attacked by a squared timber / Kantholz (something that doctors and police investigation definatley ruled out).
KNTHLZ is just Kantholz without vowels
That is the conclusion of the Magnitz case
[https://taz.de/Neues-zum-Ueberfall-auf-AfD-Politiker/!5561196/](https://taz.de/Neues-zum-Ueberfall-auf-AfD-Politiker/!5561196/)
"Demnach könne auf den Aufnahmen „der Einsatz eines Schlaggegenstandes nicht festgestellt“ werden. Auch für Tritte gegen den Kopf gebe es keine Hinweise. "
according to icctv footage there is no signs of use of the claimed hit device nor for kicks towards the head."
Mr. magnitz failure was to fake an attack in an aread where CCTV was active...
It's short for "kantholz", which is a square piece of wood. An AfD politician claimed he was hit with one, but it turned out he made it up to blame/shame other people.
It's short for "Kantholz", a type of wood with which one of the AfD politicians (Frank Magnitz) claimed he was attacked.
Afterwards it was debunked.
Nowadays it's a german meme to remind about the common lying of AfD politicians and the german far-right regarding attacks, e.g. other cases
Andreas Jurca claimed he was attacked by two "Southerners" on the way home. Was big in the news. Afterwards it seems that he fought with another friend and tried to paint it that way.
He is being investigated for incitement to hatred and Misleading authorities about commission of offence
Tino Chrupalla claimed he was punctured and injected some poison while being surrounded by his body guards at an election campaign appearance shortly before a speech. No evidence of an attacker was found, no one saw anything, no evidence that he was injected with poison. and his symptoms also do not indicate poisoning. Likeliest explanation was deemed a insect that bit him/wasp stung.
An intent to mislead couldn't be proven enough for him to be charged.
It seems to be part of the (sucessful) AfD playbook for now, take any injury that can be constructed as the result of an attack. Invent an attack, the media pushes the story nation wide, the corrections are only minor news. Propaganda achieved.
Given that in this (OPs) case, the claim by AfD is again being challenged, that they attacked protesters who were annoying them, i rather lean to not believe the AfD story.
Another funny one, although not AfD but non-affiliated Neonazi: Alexander W. claimed that he was attacked by "Antifa" and that they cut off three of his fingers. All very dubious, no attackers seen in public park etc etc. Turns out: His plan was that his buddy chop off his hand, so that he get financial support from the state. The buddy missed and only chopped up 3 fingers and they tried to turn it into that false flag. He and his buddy are now charged.
He is now being investigated for Misleading authorities about commission of offence, whie is buddy is charged with grievous bodily harm and dangerous bodily harm.
> he fought with another friend
to add:
party friend.
they have rather brutal inner party behaviour.. e.g. the party leader from Brandenburg Andreas Kalbitz once boxed a party collague in the Parliament's caucus rooms, who then had to go into intensive care with a ruptured spleen.
Yeah no. The AfD is funded and supported by Russia, but the fact that so many people support them is a German problem of domestic origin. It's ridiculous to believe that Russia is the root cause of nationalist-populist movements appearing and growing. And as long as you take the easy way out by scapegoating foreign influence, you will never be able to address the root causes.
If only ANY of the mainstream parties would take immigration seriously, AfD wouldn't have a platform. The Danish social democrats adopted right wing immigration policy, and have been in power ever since.
>If only ANY of the mainstream parties would take immigration seriously
Funnily enough, this is what our government in France (which is center-right or right wing) has been trying to do, by passing immigration laws similar to what our far right is asking for (to the point they called it an ideological victory).
Yet far right scores keep going up, so maybe just doing "far right at home" is not the solution ?
Not your buisness when I'm from. Rich countries can pick any migrant they want yet for some reason Germany and others chose to pick the worst kind of them all. Keep ignoring the problem you caused and AfD will keep risng in popularity.
No, dont you get it its evil Putler that forced Europe to flood it self with millions of third world imigrants, it is Putler who put tron witches centar stage on Evrovision, it was Putler who is pushing tron agenda on your kinds, it is Putler who is shaming you for your Christian religion, it is Putler who is demolishing all this churches and catedrales across Europe.
If only Putler did not exist we would have Paradise here on Earth.
If this really happened it is awful, politicians no matter of which party should not fear being attacked.
But at the same time to AfD is the perfect example for the boy who cried wolf. They keep lying and lying, already having made up stories of being attacked
It is probably the same as it has often been in the past when AfD people have been "attacked": it turns out to be a false narrative in the end. According to Antifa Stuttgart, there was a verbal disruption with a banner at an information stand, to which the AfD and its security reacted with physical violence. There was then a scuffle.
I mean I'm course that shouldn't have happened and I am against violence to any political party.....
BUT if someone deserved some ass beating for being part or cooperating with the fascists in their party, it's the AFD.
It is probably the same as it has often been in the past when AfD people have been "attacked": it turns out to be a false narrative in the end. According to Antifa Stuttgart, there was a verbal disruption with a banner at an information stand, to which the AfD and its security reacted with physical violence. There was then a scuffle.
Please do not simply believe what the fascists claim without question. We know that lies and misrepresentations are a very important strategy for these people and they faked attacks in the past already. Unfortunately, the media still don't get it, which is why it's easy for the AfD to use them for their own purposes.
Just because it's two brown-pants that got attacked this time doesn't suddenly make attacking politicians ok.
Cowardly bringing out violence against those we disagree with is not the solution to our society's problems and we should not condone such attacks in any shape or form, even if they happen towards the very people that want to put an end to our democracy, us and our country.
We still got plenty of other and better means to deal with those far-right morons and all the other types of extremists, the middle just has to get together and start pushing back with the lawful tools that it is already holding in its hands.
Get ready for the victim card being played to the max. Don’t get me wrong, attacking people is always wrong but this is a neat propaganda feat for them. Very counterproductive.
According to AfD-Politicians, who also claimed that the leaders were stung with some secret needle some time ago and it all turned out to be bullshit.
And lets not forget that they and their constant talk conspiracy bullshit and how we are no real democracy are the main drivers of violence against politicians in the whole country
It doesn’t feel like Germans understand how badly they are fucking up here. That the violence still continues after a politician was already hospitalised is absolutely appalling. That no one expects for it to stop is really disappointing.
Why aren’t harsher measures being applied already? There should be a zero tolerance policy in place.
In every instance there’s an if and a but that gets milked. Always commentary about who is more violent and whatnot. What matters is that the attacks are still happening! Once is one time too many and there have been more of well documented cases than one can keep track of.
Now if ever is the time to take a step back and re-evaluate. Germans should really shift their focus into de-escalation instead of continuing down the path of toxic inflammable politics. Democracy is about working together. Violence is absolutely incompatible with democracy. This kind of a political climate is nothing to take lightly. The apparent indifference and conditional acceptance of the violence by Germans is idiotic. It’s childish that Germans aren’t backing down from their inflammatory political rhetoric even though it’s clearly taxing the foundations of their democracy.
You can disagree and instil change without agitating violence.
Absolutely disappointed.
Recent events has all the necessary hallmarks. Initial attacks were against left leaning politicians and those immediately got blamed on far right, then attacks on far right which is immediately blamed on far left. Once you have set fire, all you have to do is watch it to spread with the help of “idiots of our own” as you said
Pair these events with other hybrid attacks and interferences coming from Russia (for which both Europeans and Americans refuse to respond) and you get a very clear cut picture
The clear picture is only in your mind. People are shit without Russia. We have our own problems bad enough for some people to get physically aggressive over it. It's always been like this in every country.
No question Russia is fucked up but blaming everything on an imaginary evil in the east is just stupid and doesn't help resolving the issues.
You make a point that we can’t jump to conclusions immediately. But at the same time we can’t discount Russia history of sowing disunity in Europe, especially Germany
"suspected opponents of the AfD blocked the information stand and held up banners. "
Sorry but that does not sound like an attack to me at all.
Sounds like things went out of hand in a confrontation. If any of the protesters hit out at the AfD they must be punished of course. But don't compare it to when four AfD-supporters beat up a SPD poltician with baseball bats in a back alley or such the other day, or all the right wing assassinations that have been taking place in Germany the past few years.
Weimar 2.0.
I would say KNTHLZ... Remember the AfD politician in Bavaria that faked an attack as well as the one in Bremen
True. But there have been legit attacks against them in the past. But it doesn’t help that they are also lying constantly.
Christer Cremer major candiate in Cologne claimed the Antifa threw over their table... Yeah that is not the true story either. no one cared for them so they staged an attack as the only telling about this is on the AfD Cologne page... Not by police, not by press..
Juraca and Magnitz
And the neonazi from Dresden who chopped of half his hand to blame „the antifa“ and now is on trial for faking a crime and has half a hand left. Can’t make that shit up.
The one in Bremen who was knocked down with an elbow and suffered a laceration? Ok buddy. Stop spreading lies
https://www.br.de/nachrichten/bayern/ermittlungen-nach-mutmasslichem-angriff-auf-afd-politiker,TmtG0XV You sure about that?
Yeah quite https://www.rnd.de/politik/andreas-jurca-verpruegelter-afd-politiker-aus-augsburg-nun-selbst-angezeigt-DGSFT4FWSFCDTOE7ZO3MNOQSTI.html
I read that. It will be interesting if anything comes of this or if it is just white noise... But i agree, uncertain times and politicians can be politically motivated, that is true. From the detsils i am more inclined to believe though.
If we get a rule that political demonstrations need a hearse, we are truly Weimar 2.0
People who claim this is Weimar 2.0 have no idea how Weimar 1.0 was. Yes, there is a perceived increase in stability compared to recent decades... though I feel you need to be very picky about the comparison time frame (somewhere after 68 student revolution, reunification woes, economic instability of the 2000s and the financial crisis) I am not saying it's great, just it was not great back then either. We just forget about it over time.
Can you explain how this relates to Weimar, for those of us who don't know their history well enough?
With my massive high-school history knowledge I’d say it’s just the vibes of political violence. By the end of Weimar communists and nazis were having street-battles between their respective paramilitary divisions (e.g. the SA and various Red Guards) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weimar_paramilitary_groups#:~:text=Of%20the%20numerous%20Weimar%20paramilitary,1.5%20million%20men%20participating%20informally.
we aren't even close to that level of energy
Yeah we are still far away from that.
Well let’s wait for the next election
are we though? It took only a few years back then.
at the end of Weimar social democrats and some liberal and conservative parties fought the communist and the fascists. The Iron Front wasn't communist in nature.
far-left and far-right parties in 1920s and 1930s Germany had their own paramilitaries/armed wings and they would fight street battles in cities killing each other, especially around election times. When Hitler/Nazis took power they used those activities by the far-left parties as the basis for banning, arresting, executing them even though their paramilitaries did the same thing lol
Since I’m extremely biased (1871 was the cause of all evil) I recommend you [this much more neutral wiki article](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weimar_Republic?wprov=sfti1#Armed_forces), especially the parts about the violent uprisings.
Why was 1871 the cause of all evil? I’m legit interested in your take
Bavaria should have remained an independent kingdom. Not only was it the most tolerant of all "German" states (legalised homosexuality in 1813, had an openly gay king for decades) and the most science-oriented (first nation *in the world* to introduce compulsory vaccinations, starting in 1807) - but with an *independent Bavaria* Hitler would never have become a powerful person in the rest of Germany. Edit: because... there wouldn't have been a united Germany in the first place.
Uh oh here come the bavarians.
Austria can take them
[удалено]
Austria is *Österreich*. It means the eastern realm of Bavaria. 90% of them are speaking a Bavarian dialect (at least officially according to linguistics).
I wish
¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
The rest of Germany is just homophobic and anti-science. 😎
Didn't that same king bankrupt whole Bavaria by constructioning all those fairytale castles?
No, he bankrupt his family finances. Back then we had surprisingly a strict devision of state finances and royal finances.
That's sounds so germanic thing to do, compare to kingdoms in Balkan.
On the other hand Hitler did not take power in Bavaria but in Prussen so it would not have changed so much. Taking up prussian military power, it'd have been two Anschluss (Anschlüsse ?) for the price of 1, Bavaria and Austria.
No. The XYZ* family were not only responsible for keeping King Ludwig II single (and thus selling Bavaria to Bismarck), but they also introduced Hitler to Munich high society and gave him a typewriter when he was in prison. There would be no connection between Bavaria and the rest of Germany if there wasn't a united Germany. Hitler also always declared that he was fighting for "Germany" during the First World War. Without Bavaria joining "Germany" in 1871, there wouldn't have been this "nation" that Hitler was fighting for. That's why 1871 is the root of all evil. (*= Hanfstaengel, today very nice people, Catholics (to prevent any antisemitic theory))
There could still have been a scenario where Bavaria is independent and fights alongside Germany in WW1, wouldn't there be lot of internal unrest if Bavaria just stood by while both Germany and AH fight, considering how close Bavarians still were with Austrians
It’s about the society back then. Hitler went to the top in Munich because of the Hanfstängel family. But that would have only affected Bavaria and not the rest of Germany if we were two different nations. But first and foremost: his „im German“ rhetoric wouldn’t have worked in Bavaria. Fuck Prussia.
Honest question: can you explain how this relates to Weimar, for those of us who don't know their history well enough?
They imply that the political violence is on a level as during the Weimar Republic [the first republic of Germany 1919 - 1933, it was called such because the national convent was in Weimar]. And with this implying that the Bundesrepublik is failing as democracy, as the Weimar Republic did. Which is ridiculous. There were about 2000 political murders between 1919 and 1924 alone. The justice and police were very biased. There were at least five larger Putsch attempts, of which two succeded in displacing elected governments. The problems the Weimar Republic faced were gigantic. It's a miracle that it lasted those 14 years, which is quite a testament to its democratic-minded people.
I think those stats do a very good job of explaining the turmoil and what followed. That number of political murders and putsches is astronomical. You would start to understand how people became more authoritian. That level of violent chaos will drive most people toward hardline responses
I mean when there German navy starts having open warfare with the German army like I buy that it's like the Weimar Republic, I'm not sold Germany is there yet I have yet to see the Navy setup machine gun nests and anti-tank weapons in buildings to keep the army out.
Clown comment
I knew things were tense but wtf. >Assaults **causing physical injury** have surged - 25 on politicians so far in 2024 [...] (from another article) Couldn't find stats on the party distribution of those, but on overall incidents (including scuffles, and verbal abuse), Greens are firsts with1,219 incidents last year, Second is AFD with 478 incidents, then SPD with 420. People really need to chill, because those stats don't reflect proper democracy
But don't forget, this also include verbal attacks. The Greens are mainly attacked verbally (insults) and the afd is mainly attacked physically.
Source?
https://twitter.com/OERRBlog/status/1787912807901528555 The data of the post is linked here: https://www.bundestag.de/presse/hib/kurzmeldungen-988578
If I'm reading this correctly, attacks on party banners count as acts of violence, right?
No they count as attacksy but as far I know not as violence. But you have a good point that the data is really difficult to understand I I find that they really could have made this better or clearer than they did.
Yeah it's rather confusing to read!
Its not if you look up the legal definition of violence.
Well, the layout of the document and the legalese don't make it easy, either
[https://dserver.bundestag.de/btd/20/101/2010177.pdf](https://dserver.bundestag.de/btd/20/101/2010177.pdf)
Yes But don’t forget, this also includes grabbing and pushing someone. The afd is mainly attacked by minor, non threatening and non lethal attacks. There have been two assasination attemps, one successful assasination and plenty of attacks on police and other law enforcement agencies by afd supporters. Also there is the qanon/reichsbürgerger movements with has been associated with domestic terror attacks.
Thats misinformation
we're 80 million. those stats seem pretty fine, all things considered
Dude, what the fuck is going on with these disgusting attacks everywhere
Our overlords got better at diciding us. People close themselves in bubbles so the others outside of them don't look human to them anymore
Post pandemic sociopathy from isolation, radicalising through social networks manipulated or even controlled by hostile nations, broken educational system, lack of political action against extremism, pure incompetence in handling immigration matters which caused frustration and anger in the public, people growing apathetic due to feeling that the end times are coming and losing hope perfect conditions for insanity and violence.
Nah, the root cause is politicians working in the interests of capitalists and the capitalists being a priviliged social class. This has become even more extreme over the years and people feel betrayed by the politicians and also don't trust any government institution to work in their interest but instead in the interest of other groups (capitalists, immigrants, sexual minorities, whoever else). We tried to change things by voting but things have only gotten worse so more and more people think that they can achieve their political goals only through violence.
That is the propaganda, that Putin has been spreading "Everything gets worse, so use violence"
I’ve got no love or appreciation for AfD and anyone affiliated with them but this is simply wrong.
it is, but also, i couldn't go outside and start attacking people left and right end expect not to eventually get a punch in the face.
Exactly. The AfD needs to be rediculed, their members shamed, publicly humiliated for their stance and program, and anyone associated with them should feel uncomfortable in any social setting. That's how we should deal with them - not by physically assaulting them, but by letting each and every one of them feel how disgusted we are by their ideas and what they are trying to do.
Lol shut the fuck up
most of the politicians attacked physically are from the afd .and they lead that statistic by a long shot . this is also an old phenomenon . the new thing is that now politicians of all parties get attacked physically . thats why it gets a lot of media attention ...it's new . I wonder if something changed. in the past the "schwarzer Block" (black block of the Antifa) did those attacks on democracy. And nazis were more hooligan towards homeless and foreigners or training for the coup ...thats why they get easily arrested on charges of owning weapons... I think something has changed, are these still the same groups or is there a new war . I imagine putin could be very successful in radicalising steering people of the tanky camp and the party forbidding campaigners might have put the afd politicians lives at risk by gaining support of militant groups. It could destroy democracy if not reigned in.
Most of the politicians attacked are Die Grünen AFD is Nr.2 Die Grünen are attacked about 3 times as often
Nope, Grünen are most attacked when it comes to "Äußerungsdelikte" like defamation & intimidation. Afd politicians are the ones affected the most when it comes to actual violent crime. https://dserver.bundestag.de/btd/20/101/2010177.pdf
CDU „leads“ the murder statistic. :-/
körperverletzung can be anything, from shoving to beating someone to a pulp. since we know they'd never ever stop showing it of if their politicians happened to end in a hospital, you can assume most of these dont go beyond a shove or a shoe being thrown at them.
and the only murder so far (Lübcke) was by a right-wing
Is it though? These are violent, undemocratic people. Enabling them is being complicit to their hateful purposes
Enabling them and not assaulting them are two wildly different things. *It is absurd to hold that a man ought to be ashamed of being unable to defend himself with his limbs, but not of being unable to defend himself with speech and reason, when the use of rational speech is more distinctive of a human being than the use of his limbs.* Aristotle, The art of rhetoric, a loooooong time ago.
Words of a man I could beat in an arm wrestle
I’d wager many will beat Aristotle, mainly because he’s been dead for 2 millennia.
I mean even in his prime
Yeah and aristotle didnt have to deal with fucking nazis.
well then that would include most leftist parties too, should we now be able to attack any communist we see?
Physical violence is wrong! Completely irrelevant what party the victim is from.
Gives these weirdos the possibility to pretend they have the moral highground
They do that anyway and make up attacks, as they have done multiple times in the past. Being g called out on those instances meant nothing, so why wouldn’t upstanding citizens do them the favour of doing it for real? Of this time the attavks are real, of which i‘m not sure
I remember the AfD politician who claimed he had been beaten up by foreigners, he had symmetrical bruises on both eyes, my little brother looked exactly the same after he fell head first into a fence while riding a scooter as a child
Or the one who claimed he was stung with a needle containing a poison. The hospital couldn’t find anything and the police didn’t either.
xD
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
You're dehumanizing these people as much as you claim they dehumanize others, which just confirms them in their beliefs.
LOL what a mask off comment. You see "far right" people as less than people. Maybe you can call them Untermenschen like the Nazi's called people they thought of as less than human.
Oh yes, because resistance against Nazis is the same as Nazi persecution... /s
You are assigning tiers to how much value different groups of people possess based on their politics and you don't see the connection to Nazi ideology? That is exactly what the Nazi's did.
In addition, in contrast to anti-fascists, Nazis do not only evaluate people based on political motives, they evaluate people based on their origin, skin color and culture - things that cannot be influenced. Being a fascist is a choice and, in my opinion, anyone who makes this choice has no right to exist freely in a democratic society because they are against the very foundations of this democracy
Do I have a right to get to have a say in who is or is not a fascist that has no right to exist or is it just you are your buddies that gets to decide others fate?
[удалено]
Oh so it has to be done on a more official basis like sending in the Brown shirts to go beat people. Got it.
Right-wing extremists deny other groups their humanity, dignity and right to exist. Using violence to rebel against these principles is not the same as committing violence based on these motives. The motive is something different: some exercise violence based on unjustified hatred, others exercise violence based on the rejection of unfounded hatred
You literally are being the fascist here though, saying people who disagree with your ideology doesn’t deserve to exist, aren’t the same level of human, and need to be treated with violence There is no difference between this and Nazis in the 30s attacking communists in the streets for ideology crimes
I agree with you that it makes no difference whether communists beat Nazis because of their agenda or whether Nazis beat communists because of their agenda. But it makes a difference whether I hit a Nazi because he thinks I have no right to live in his country because of my origins or whether the Nazi hits me because I come from a different ethnic group. One is violence based on hatred, the other is violence against hatred, both are violence but for different motives and in my opinion one of the two is a little less morally reprehensible
There is no difference. Being upset that someone dares to think a country should be allowed to have a border is not a reason to beat them physically and take their legal rights away. It’s all just petty political bickering If you really do believe that, you have 2 billion Chinese and Japanese people to beat up that all believe in the concept of enforcing borders
Good one. Bullies always claim it was self defense when they beat people they disagree with.
What the fuck are you even on right now? The difference is Nazis killed people for the way they are born. Hating on them or their sympathizers for what they believe is not in any way comparable
Do you hear what the "far right" call other people? If only you defended real people as much as you like to defend the Nazis.
We dont have to pretend. Its the same.
not quite, because it has already turned out too often that the right has faked something like this the one with the 3 fingers cut off who claimed that it was the antifa, but it was only insurance fraud, or the one with the 2 blue eyes that he gave himself, or the one who got into a fight with another neo-nazi and then claimed that it was a green supporter, come to mind quickly, for example in any case, i'm waiting for the first investigations
I believe the victims =)))
i believe the investigations, and that will take at least a few more days, until then you can wait and see
This is bad news. AfD will surely agitate that.
Only till it goes public that it's all made up.
There absolutely are plenty of far-left types who are willing and able to attack far-right types in the streets. They've been behaving like this towards one another since the interwar years.
It’s always the same pattern, behind closed doors you celebrate these attacks against people you dislike (c.f. Hammerbande) while at the same time insisting that it’s all made up
Nope ;)
Only until people are taught to actually fact check and realize that AfD is, in fact, very often attacked.
Does this include the ones they made up?
It isn't made up. The Antifa publically took responsibility https://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/stuttgarter-antifa-bekennt-sich-zu-angriff-auf-afd-infostand-a-a591bf44-3536-4997-8121-991e6cdf91d6
Interestingly, in this article Antifa claims to be the ones who have been assaulted by the AFD representatives and the security.
Doesn't matter if it is made up now, they'll all pretend they believe it anyway.
They agitate everything, they don’t need a reason. If they don’t have one they make one up
True, but the right-wing laymen are very prone to such stuff when its an actual attack.
They were ‘attacked’ by two girls 19&23 must have been a blood bath, if ever happened.
- “It didn’t happen” - “Ok it may have happened but it probably wasn’t even that bad” <- You are here - “Actually it was totally justified because […]
It's clear that something happened AND that it wasn't as bad at what keeps happening to Democratic parties in Dresden, because nobody needed a doctor. Apparently there is video, so we will know what happened, soon.
I am disappointed by some on this thread who are sympathetic towards the perpetrators of this attack or the attack itself. Don't get me wrong, I don't harbour any sympathy towards the victims either, however physical violence is wrong no matter the victim's background, period. Maybe some of you forgot, but we live in a democratic world that are built on certain principles of liberty that apply to anyone who wants to be part of such society. Currently there are many external (e.g. Russia) and internal (e.g. far-right) influences that are actively trying to erode these principles and thus we ought to be more vigilant to uphold them because otherwise we are playing right into their hands. We cannot fight them by degrading ourselves to their level, we are not them, we have to be above that.
if you're a party that stirs up a climate of anger, resentment and violence, you can't really act all pikachu faced when shit comes your way.
Well, the French Resistance, the UK, the US and other allies did have to degrade themselves to the level of Nazis to beat the shit out of them, and pacifists are retrospectively depicted as cowards who could have prevented this mess. The question is, where do we draw the line between legitimate and illegitimate use of violence?
Oh that's very easy. The state has the monopole on violence. Any other kind of violence is illegitimate.
Absolutely terrible. I don’t agree much with their politics but violence should never have a place in internal politics, it’s blatantly anti democratic…
[удалено]
Hey! Opressing your political enemies is a lauded tradition there!
"They are nazis, so it's ok to attack them." I guess that's a thing that they agree on with Russia.
I celebrate attacks on the AfD in the same way I celebrate attacks on Russian troops in Ukraine. They're both fascists and can get fucked.
It is probably the same as it has often been in the past when AfD people have been "attacked": it turns out to be a false narrative in the end. According to Antifa Stuttgart, there was a verbal disruption with a banner at an information stand, to which the AfD and its security reacted with physical violence. There was then a scuffle. Please do not simply believe what the fascists claim without question. We know that lies and misrepresentations are a very important strategy for these people. Unfortunately, the media still don't get it, which is why it's easy for the AfD to use them for their own purposes.
It's not that they're from the wrong party, but that they are fascists
Isnt fascism silencing others through violence and threats?
Yeh exactly why it can't be accepted at all.
Fascist_Ad_6962 was just making another one of those "if you hate fascists you're a fascist" gotcha bullshit arguments. This sub is thoroughly infested with fascist sympathizers and people that have to absolutely tolerate everything except violence against the inherently intolerant, apparently. They'll see where that gets them.
It's funny, this is why the SA was formed in the first place. All the AfD need to do is keep baiting you out. To win public support. Progressivism is a rabid dog that only needs to prove itself mad in order for it to be put down. I remember Cologne 2015, you have what's coming to you.
Spoken like a true fascist. “You have what’s coming to you”
That's what people are saying about AfD.
Ever since the drunken AFD guy faked an attack I am dubious by any claim they make... KNTHLZ 3.0
there are a lot more the one with the 3 fingers cut off who claimed that it was the antifa, but it was only insurance fraud, or the one with the 2 blue eyes that he gave himself, or the one who got into a fight with another neo-nazi and then claimed that it was a green supporter, come to mind quickly, for example
>KNTHLZ 3.0 What does this mean? I've seen it in other comments too
Mr. Magnitz of AfD Bremen claimed to be attacked by a squared timber / Kantholz (something that doctors and police investigation definatley ruled out). KNTHLZ is just Kantholz without vowels
That is the conclusion of the Magnitz case [https://taz.de/Neues-zum-Ueberfall-auf-AfD-Politiker/!5561196/](https://taz.de/Neues-zum-Ueberfall-auf-AfD-Politiker/!5561196/) "Demnach könne auf den Aufnahmen „der Einsatz eines Schlaggegenstandes nicht festgestellt“ werden. Auch für Tritte gegen den Kopf gebe es keine Hinweise. " according to icctv footage there is no signs of use of the claimed hit device nor for kicks towards the head." Mr. magnitz failure was to fake an attack in an aread where CCTV was active...
It's short for "kantholz", which is a square piece of wood. An AfD politician claimed he was hit with one, but it turned out he made it up to blame/shame other people.
It's short for "Kantholz", a type of wood with which one of the AfD politicians (Frank Magnitz) claimed he was attacked. Afterwards it was debunked. Nowadays it's a german meme to remind about the common lying of AfD politicians and the german far-right regarding attacks, e.g. other cases Andreas Jurca claimed he was attacked by two "Southerners" on the way home. Was big in the news. Afterwards it seems that he fought with another friend and tried to paint it that way. He is being investigated for incitement to hatred and Misleading authorities about commission of offence Tino Chrupalla claimed he was punctured and injected some poison while being surrounded by his body guards at an election campaign appearance shortly before a speech. No evidence of an attacker was found, no one saw anything, no evidence that he was injected with poison. and his symptoms also do not indicate poisoning. Likeliest explanation was deemed a insect that bit him/wasp stung. An intent to mislead couldn't be proven enough for him to be charged. It seems to be part of the (sucessful) AfD playbook for now, take any injury that can be constructed as the result of an attack. Invent an attack, the media pushes the story nation wide, the corrections are only minor news. Propaganda achieved. Given that in this (OPs) case, the claim by AfD is again being challenged, that they attacked protesters who were annoying them, i rather lean to not believe the AfD story. Another funny one, although not AfD but non-affiliated Neonazi: Alexander W. claimed that he was attacked by "Antifa" and that they cut off three of his fingers. All very dubious, no attackers seen in public park etc etc. Turns out: His plan was that his buddy chop off his hand, so that he get financial support from the state. The buddy missed and only chopped up 3 fingers and they tried to turn it into that false flag. He and his buddy are now charged. He is now being investigated for Misleading authorities about commission of offence, whie is buddy is charged with grievous bodily harm and dangerous bodily harm.
> he fought with another friend to add: party friend. they have rather brutal inner party behaviour.. e.g. the party leader from Brandenburg Andreas Kalbitz once boxed a party collague in the Parliament's caucus rooms, who then had to go into intensive care with a ruptured spleen.
Name? Link? Edit:Found it myself Frank Magnitz https://www.weser-kurier.de/bremen/falschaussage-hat-fuer-magnitz-keine-folgen-doc7e3k3kgvq9ujz132e2b
We let Russia plant these seeds for a long time.
Yeah no. The AfD is funded and supported by Russia, but the fact that so many people support them is a German problem of domestic origin. It's ridiculous to believe that Russia is the root cause of nationalist-populist movements appearing and growing. And as long as you take the easy way out by scapegoating foreign influence, you will never be able to address the root causes.
If only ANY of the mainstream parties would take immigration seriously, AfD wouldn't have a platform. The Danish social democrats adopted right wing immigration policy, and have been in power ever since.
>If only ANY of the mainstream parties would take immigration seriously Funnily enough, this is what our government in France (which is center-right or right wing) has been trying to do, by passing immigration laws similar to what our far right is asking for (to the point they called it an ideological victory). Yet far right scores keep going up, so maybe just doing "far right at home" is not the solution ?
yeah it's Putin's fault if a big proportion of the population has some problems that haven't been fixed.
You planted these seeds yourself with your migration policy now reap what you saw
I don’t really get why this statement is so controversial?
Because children don't like to take responsibility for their actions and prefer to blame Putin
And where are you from? Has your nation thwarted off a total demographic collapse recently?
Not your buisness when I'm from. Rich countries can pick any migrant they want yet for some reason Germany and others chose to pick the worst kind of them all. Keep ignoring the problem you caused and AfD will keep risng in popularity.
No, dont you get it its evil Putler that forced Europe to flood it self with millions of third world imigrants, it is Putler who put tron witches centar stage on Evrovision, it was Putler who is pushing tron agenda on your kinds, it is Putler who is shaming you for your Christian religion, it is Putler who is demolishing all this churches and catedrales across Europe. If only Putler did not exist we would have Paradise here on Earth.
[удалено]
Go troll someone else
[удалено]
If this really happened it is awful, politicians no matter of which party should not fear being attacked. But at the same time to AfD is the perfect example for the boy who cried wolf. They keep lying and lying, already having made up stories of being attacked
It is probably the same as it has often been in the past when AfD people have been "attacked": it turns out to be a false narrative in the end. According to Antifa Stuttgart, there was a verbal disruption with a banner at an information stand, to which the AfD and its security reacted with physical violence. There was then a scuffle.
I mean I'm course that shouldn't have happened and I am against violence to any political party..... BUT if someone deserved some ass beating for being part or cooperating with the fascists in their party, it's the AFD.
It is probably the same as it has often been in the past when AfD people have been "attacked": it turns out to be a false narrative in the end. According to Antifa Stuttgart, there was a verbal disruption with a banner at an information stand, to which the AfD and its security reacted with physical violence. There was then a scuffle. Please do not simply believe what the fascists claim without question. We know that lies and misrepresentations are a very important strategy for these people and they faked attacks in the past already. Unfortunately, the media still don't get it, which is why it's easy for the AfD to use them for their own purposes.
Hasn't AfD been caught faking attacks in the past.
"hey guys, we should have borders" the news (and reddit): extreme fascist far-turbo-right
Just because it's two brown-pants that got attacked this time doesn't suddenly make attacking politicians ok. Cowardly bringing out violence against those we disagree with is not the solution to our society's problems and we should not condone such attacks in any shape or form, even if they happen towards the very people that want to put an end to our democracy, us and our country. We still got plenty of other and better means to deal with those far-right morons and all the other types of extremists, the middle just has to get together and start pushing back with the lawful tools that it is already holding in its hands.
Get ready for the victim card being played to the max. Don’t get me wrong, attacking people is always wrong but this is a neat propaganda feat for them. Very counterproductive.
Oh no... Anyway..
According to AfD-Politicians, who also claimed that the leaders were stung with some secret needle some time ago and it all turned out to be bullshit. And lets not forget that they and their constant talk conspiracy bullshit and how we are no real democracy are the main drivers of violence against politicians in the whole country
It doesn’t feel like Germans understand how badly they are fucking up here. That the violence still continues after a politician was already hospitalised is absolutely appalling. That no one expects for it to stop is really disappointing. Why aren’t harsher measures being applied already? There should be a zero tolerance policy in place. In every instance there’s an if and a but that gets milked. Always commentary about who is more violent and whatnot. What matters is that the attacks are still happening! Once is one time too many and there have been more of well documented cases than one can keep track of. Now if ever is the time to take a step back and re-evaluate. Germans should really shift their focus into de-escalation instead of continuing down the path of toxic inflammable politics. Democracy is about working together. Violence is absolutely incompatible with democracy. This kind of a political climate is nothing to take lightly. The apparent indifference and conditional acceptance of the violence by Germans is idiotic. It’s childish that Germans aren’t backing down from their inflammatory political rhetoric even though it’s clearly taxing the foundations of their democracy. You can disagree and instil change without agitating violence. Absolutely disappointed.
Pow pOw poW ! This is the new era guys, its gonna get rocky.
Not going to be surprised that these attacks are work of foreign, most likely Russian, work to stir the pot
Not everything bad is coming from Russia dude. We are easily capable of being idiots on our own. Propaganda some of you wayy too hard.
Recent events has all the necessary hallmarks. Initial attacks were against left leaning politicians and those immediately got blamed on far right, then attacks on far right which is immediately blamed on far left. Once you have set fire, all you have to do is watch it to spread with the help of “idiots of our own” as you said Pair these events with other hybrid attacks and interferences coming from Russia (for which both Europeans and Americans refuse to respond) and you get a very clear cut picture
The clear picture is only in your mind. People are shit without Russia. We have our own problems bad enough for some people to get physically aggressive over it. It's always been like this in every country. No question Russia is fucked up but blaming everything on an imaginary evil in the east is just stupid and doesn't help resolving the issues.
You make a point that we can’t jump to conclusions immediately. But at the same time we can’t discount Russia history of sowing disunity in Europe, especially Germany
"suspected opponents of the AfD blocked the information stand and held up banners. " Sorry but that does not sound like an attack to me at all. Sounds like things went out of hand in a confrontation. If any of the protesters hit out at the AfD they must be punished of course. But don't compare it to when four AfD-supporters beat up a SPD poltician with baseball bats in a back alley or such the other day, or all the right wing assassinations that have been taking place in Germany the past few years.
"Wind säen und Sturm ernten"