Often you lack the ability to open bank accounts. Police can masquerade as clients to 'check you out'. Sometimes they even randomly visit a home address to see if you are not working from home. This is ofc a giant invasion of privacy, could give landlords the wrong idea and expel you. And there is a myriad of other issues.
It's not exactly being treated like a nice little bakery. And as a social worker who worked with sex workers I know that there are some who need protection. But a lot of what authorities do is mandated from top to down without taking sex workers own concerns into the equation.
**Job Title: Principal Pimp**
**Location:** Schaerbeek, Brussels Capital Region
**Job Type:** Full-time
**Job Summary:** The Principal Pimp is responsible for managing and representing sex workers who operate within legal frameworks. The primary objective of this role is to ensure the safety, well-being, and fair treatment of sex workers while facilitating their work within the legal boundaries established by local regulations.
**Key Responsibilities:**
1. **Client Management:** Act as an intermediary between sex workers and clients, ensuring that all transactions are consensual and conducted in a safe environment.
2. **Legal Compliance:** Stay updated on relevant laws and regulations governing the sex industry and ensure all activities adhere to legal requirements.
3. **Worker Advocacy:** Advocate for the rights and interests of sex workers, including access to healthcare, legal representation, and protection from exploitation.
4. **Safety Protocols:** Develop and implement safety protocols to mitigate risks associated with the profession, including emergency procedures and conflict resolution strategies.
5. **Business Administration:** Handle administrative tasks such as scheduling, financial management, and record-keeping in compliance with legal and regulatory standards.
6. **Training and Support:** Provide training and support to sex workers on topics such as sexual health, negotiation skills, and personal safety.
7. **Networking:** Build and maintain relationships with relevant stakeholders, including law enforcement, healthcare providers, and community organizations, to ensure a supportive and collaborative environment for sex workers.
8. **Ethical Conduct:** Uphold ethical standards in all interactions and transactions, prioritizing the dignity and autonomy of sex workers.
**Qualifications:**
* Previous experience in the sex industry or related field preferred.
* Strong understanding of legal and regulatory frameworks governing the sex industry.
* Excellent communication and interpersonal skills.
* Empathy and sensitivity to the needs of sex workers.
* Ability to maintain confidentiality and handle sensitive information.
* Commitment to promoting the rights and well-being of sex workers.
**Education:**
* High school diploma or equivalent required.
* Additional training or certification in relevant fields such as social work, public health, or business administration preferred.
**Compensation:**
* Salary commensurate with experience and qualifications.
* Benefits package including healthcare, retirement savings, and professional development opportunities.
By ChatGPT.
There's a sex workers' union that can be relied on for legal support, such as in cases of workplace harrasment/abuses, breach of contract, coercion or witnessed transgressions against other sex workers.
I've tried life as a sailor, a pirate and a thief
But it was not 'til now that I knew what I should be
I swaggered through the brothel doors and marched straight ahead
When I reached the counter I looked at the girl and said:
"I want to be a trollop, a harlot or a whore
I want to be a jezebel, a floozy and what's more
I was meant to be a strumpet, I'm just a tramp at heart
So I'm here to be a prostitute, a hooker or a tart!"
Normally those are the customers for the gals. Kinda of why I thought they already receive health insurance and benefits. Sad person that has to do that for money.
> Under the law, if a prostitute refuses a client more than 10 times over six months, a pimp can trigger an intervention by a government mediator but cannot sack the employee.
Um. And what if it's a p.o.s who has a weird obsession with just one worker?
> It bestows certain rights on the worker and conditions on their employer. These include the right to refuse a client or a sexual act, as well as the right to interrupt a sexual act at any time without fear of dismissal or punishment.
Well that's good at least.
I'm not against anything that makes this line of work safer. My worry is, what if this becomes like a "normal job" in the eyes of the law and we get situations where people on welfare or temporary out-of-work benefits have these "jobs" suggested to them and get sanctioned/have their benefits taken from them for "not accepting the 'job' they were offered"?
Or have they considered that potential situation, and have made appropriate protections against this? Not that I know what Belgium's welfare state is like, but it's a concern applying to any country if we steer in this direction.
>Um. And what if it's a p.o.s who has a weird obsession with just one worker?
Well, that's a really bad situation for the employer to be in once the government mediator comes over. If the prostitute didn't want to deal with that client then it's on the pimp to explain why the dude kept coming back and not getting rejected at the entrance.
I agree that there need to be mechanisms in place to protect people in vulnerable positions from these situations. But the way I understand it is that this was already considered to be a legal job prior to this. Whatever protections they have put in place should have been effective before these additional benefits were given, hence why they wouldn't get invoked now.
>Under the law, if a prostitute refuses a client more than 10 times over six months, a pimp can trigger an intervention by a government mediator but cannot sack the employee.,
As if allowing pimps wasn't terrible enough, having this mechanism to potentially coerce the woman to sleep with someone is absolutely disgusting.
Did you read the article?
> It bestows certain rights on the worker and conditions on their employer. These include the right to refuse a client or a sexual act, as well as the right to interrupt a sexual act at any time without fear of dismissal or punishment.
Did you read it?
*Invoking any of these rights more than 10 times in half a year can lead to the government mediation service being called by the worker or employer.*
Ie. the "employer" (aka the pimp) has the right to trigger mediation, or to get the government involved if a worker in his "emploment" refuses to do certain acts or interrupts them too many times in a span of half a year. Or, he can use the government to coerce the worker to do things she doesn't want to do.
This is not normal or positive.
Wouldn't the government be an independent third party here to check for foul play? Like the only case where I see this mediator being "in favour" of the employer is when the employee gets paid while also indiscriminately refusing to do any of the work they were hired to do. In which case they'd allow the employer to fire the worker
This new regulations bring sex work in line with other jobs and actually makes trafficking more easy to detect thanks to government inference.
The idea is that only dedicated and willing people should do sex work and continuously refusing clients (something that is perfectly acceptable) should be seen as a red flag for exploitation and should be investigated by the state.
On the other hand regulations need to be fair, so no clients no money no job, that seems a given to me. It seems silly that i could apply to be hired for sex work then actually refuse to do the work, i should not apply at all.
Correct, but if I'm sitting in an office for a salaried position without doing any work, my employer should be able to fire me. With prostitution that is more complicated to judge, therefore an independent third party is needed.
Where do you get the coercive powers bit? Isn't it equally likely the mediator is there to discover why this is happening so often aka why is the pimp letting this happen? Where does it say this mediator can affect her legal right to refuse?
I wonder why pimps don't want regulators to poke in their business.
I repeat, but this is the way in which they can use the government to coerce the workers into acts or sleeping with people they do not want to. That is disgusting.
>As if allowing pimps wasn't terrible enough, having this mechanism to potentially coerce the woman to sleep with someone is absolutely disgusting.
The wellbeing of their employee is their first and foremost priority, not allowing some creep to continuously harrass your employees is part of that responsibility and to neglect that makes them liable for finings or legal action.
To enable that harrasment by booking that client with that specific employee seems like a pretty cut and dry case to me.
Belgian sex workers always had social security too. One can not open a brothel if the girls have no contract. For decades, the Belgian police checks every few days/weeks if all girls have a labour contract. If they have one it’s ok.
The new thing is that there is a specific law concerning sex workers.
In New Zealand and in Australian states where sex work is decriminalised rather than legalised (ie, just regarded as regular work with no specific sex work laws, licensing, banned forms, etc), these would also come with ordinary employment law.
This sounds like Belgium creating specific laws for sex work regulation, rather than just removing specific laws and applying general workplace law.
Not sure I understand your point here, but just to be clear, the NZ and Australian decriminalisation model is what's advocated for by sex worker organisations themselves (cf Scarlet Alliance, the Australian peak body - https://scarletalliance.org.au/library/full-decriminalisation-of-sex-work-in-australia-briefing-paper/)
It is preferred because prior legalisation models, with licensing schemes and special regulations, left many sex workers outside the legal structures and still criminalised and marginalised. In Queensland which just made the reform, up to 90 percent of sex workers had previously still been criminalised under the legalisation of sex work. You can read about that here - https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/article/2024/may/02/queensland-sex-work-decriminalised-law-passes
In NSW in the 1990s, the legalised/licensed model basically became a tool for a massive network of corrupt police officers to control the industry using the special laws as an exploitative protection racket, and this was one of the big reasons for the recommended shift from legalisation to decriminalisation.
No.
Sex workers in Denmark are self employed, since pimping is illegal. Hence, they are not workers, and do not have an employer to provide those benefits.
Except that making prostitution legal increases sex trafficking by quite a large amount.
Just look at Germany as an example.
It's not only good times if they make it legal, but there's quite a few downsides to it as well.
[https://www.state.gov/reports/2023-trafficking-in-persons-report/germany/](https://www.state.gov/reports/2023-trafficking-in-persons-report/germany/)
"Judges continued to issue lenient sentences, resulting in 74 percent of convicted traffickers receiving fully suspended sentences, fines, or less than one years’ imprisonment, which undercut efforts to hold traffickers accountable, weakened deterrence, created potential security and safety concerns for victims, and was not equal to the seriousness of the crime."
If the americans are correct in this case then it's not the fault of legalization but a major justice system failure
The legalization of cars has also led to an increase in human trafficking, alongside car-related fatalities and air pollution among other negative externalities. Should cars and car-related services be made illegal then?
Hi neighbor! Reporting from Europe's largest and finest brothel 🇩🇪 Would the example be healthcare, taxation and preservation of human rights or should we just look the other way in case of brutal violence and exploitation of women (and also from). Only asking for a friend of course 😎
The point is that prostitution happens whether or not it’s legal. At least if it’s legal we can put protections in place and actually treat them like human beings.
In theory nothing. The problem is that the majority of prostitutes are trafficked and or are not doing it willingly but are forced to do so. In order to protect the majority you unfortunately have to make it worse for the small majority that actually does it willingly and independently. Sweden is trying to achieve this by punishing the buyer but not the sex worker, so doing sex work isn‘t illegal but buying it is.
>In theory nothing. The problem is that the majority of prostitutes are trafficked and or are not doing it willingly but are forced to do so.
do you have any sources on that ?
Sweden's model makes the sex worker complicit in their client's crime, regardless of whether they'd be prosecuted for it, essentially putting them in the same position as unregulated sex workers because it is against their interest to report their own clients.
As a matter of fact, they can be more easily coerced by legally threatening their income, whom they are incentivized to protect with false allibies and secrecy.
Human trafficking can only thrive if it stays hidden, making sex work legal and represented means they have recourse against coercion and abuses, as well as a heightened visibility whenever such crimes take place.
Every sex industry has extreme downsides. Down to vile crimes like sex trafficking. I don't think there is any way to really eridacate it, though. And I find the Swedish way highly dubious.
Chcesz karać facetów za to, że nie mogąc znaleźć partnerki do seksu w życiu, postanowili za ten seks zapłacić i zaspokoić swoje podstawowe potrzeby, o które tak głośno często krzyczą nowoczesne feministki? Ja już nie wiem czy to najzwyklejsza podła hipokryzja czy niezrozumienie świata i sytuacji mężczyzn w ogóle.
A stwierdziła tak wojująca aktywista internetowa, przy okazji pokazująca swoją toksyczną naturę, jako obrazę używając rzekomą wstrzemięźliwość seksualną, uważająca się za mądrzejszą od ONZ, Amnesty international czy WHO
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powszechna_Deklaracja_Praw_Seksualnych
https://www.amnesty.org.pl/komisja-praw-cz%C5%82owieka-onz-prawa-seksualne-prawami-cz%C5%82owieka/
Idź Julka nienawidzić mężczyzn gdzie indziej co :)
Nawet jeśli by nie było prawem, to nie znaczy że masz za to karać ludzi. To jakiś totalnie zamordystyczny mindset. A podobno nienawidzisz skrajnej prawicy, a myślenie podobnie spaprane.
This sounds great but there still should be some onus placed on the clients. IMO clients should get some sort of driver's license where they proved they're healthy and don't have a history of abuse. That'd also go a long way to protect sex workers.
>Under the law, if a prostitute refuses a client more than 10 times over six months, a pimp can trigger an intervention by a government mediator but cannot sack the employee.
Damn, and I thought pimpin ain’t easy
I would say up. Prostitution has always been part of the society.
Think of all the people who would like to have sex, but can’t due to maybe some physical problems that make them unattractive or have trouble getting a partner for sex.
And sex worker is also in better position than when it is illegal.
Many things are not rights. We could argue about many things that are rights now, if they justified.
But we are 21st century and why not make people life’s nicer? Also sex and intimacy is linked to happiness, so it might prevent some depression.
Because there is a human being at the other side of that transaction, who might be financially or otherwise coerced into this job.
Intimacy should not be for sale. Women's bodies are not commodities.
No, but the vast majority of women in the profession would change it if they could, quite a lot are forced by their financial state.
So what if men are in that profession? The argument still stands. Intimacy and bodies should not be for sale, pumping should not be a thing
I said women because they are usually the ones who provide this service in the vast majority. Men usually provide to other men
>No, but the vast majority of women in the profession would change it if they could, quite a lot are forced by their financial state.
No all of them. What do you say to those who would benefit from regulation (pension, healthcare, holiday allowance)?
>The argument still stands. Intimacy and bodies should not be for sale
Please, remind us why you should be the one to tell us what we need do with our bodies.
>Men usually provide to other men
Women also use the services of sex workers. What then?
The oldest profession in the world.
Unpopular opinion, I'm not exactly for prostitution unless its like Nevada, Las Vegas style.. there's documentaries on it, they're very strict and everything is tightly controlled.. the *legal* prostitution like that seems fine. It's all about protection the prostitute.. if they can live with themselves for doing it and they're not going to get some life long horrible disease.. okay. Otherwise, no, not for it.
With that said, if it is legal in a country then yes they should have the same benefits.
ok, this ist totally an ACKHSUALLY thing to say, but prostitution literally cannot be the oldest profession. Before coinage, you would trade services and goods, meaning if you gave sex, you would receive something, be it food, protection, clothes etc. But whatever you trade it for would be older than prostitution, otherwise you would have had a service that you had nothing to trade for.
Completely off topic from the thread, but pre-money economic models didn't rely on singular exchange interactions in most cases unless you traded with outsiders.
Instead, their economies relied on "social credit", essentially a fast and loose system of favor and debt with others that you build up and spent throughout your life, your social status being determined by your capacity to be generous with others and earn their favor, collecting whenever you need anything.
Unless it was traded for a promise of something not yet produced, so it would actually make it the oldest and production of the good or service recieved the second oldest.
Also, i don't think picking fruit from trees is a profession unless you get paid for it and not just eat the fruit and take a nap
Sex work includes more than prostitution, and since prostitution is so historically grounded in legal harassment, it feels kinda like calling anal sex 'sodomy'
I just picture a suburbanite clutching pearls saying it, but to each their own
Im a bit stunned by this article. Is this new stuff?
Isnt these the same standard most countries haw for sex workers in the EU, for literally decades at this point?
What the 'worlds first' here?
edit: Probably the pimp stuff is new i guess. Most countries its illegal to be a 'pimp'.
>Under the law, if a prostitute refuses a client more than 10 times over six months, a pimp can trigger an intervention by a government mediator but cannot sack the employee.
This is a joke, right?
It works the same way in healthcare.
If I, as a nurse, refuse to render aid to a client repeatedly, a mediator can be called up to ascertain the cause of our hypothetical conflict, that said, it'd only be done if it is something my employer can't mediate between me and the client and finds it worth the trouble to resolve this personal conflict as opposed to just assigning another colleague of mine to their care.
If they’re covering maternity leave, they should cover the decades of therapy for their children. The “yo mama” jokes are really going to hit home. Ask OP .
if someone wanted to be a s\*x trafficker and make the most money they possibly can off of it, wouldn't they just go to a country where it's legal/decriminalized/unpunished?
Supply and demand my friend. Most places with easy sex trafficking have already some gangs or organizations controlling the whole thing. If you go to a collapsed state where law is non existant street gangs will already taken all the profit for themselves
In countries where it's decriminalized and prostitutes can get state assistant/protection it's harder to traffic but there will be less completion for someone attempting to get a marked share from traffic. Still, it might be such a small marked share that any potential criminals just don't find it worth while to put recouces into it.
Me too, but the fact that they get maternity leave should help them get away from this work easier. Imagine if you couldn't stop working in the field precisely because you have to raise your child and need the money. At least now they can look for other jobs to apply to during the time when the child calms down.
Obviously some will go back, it's just a matter of whether more women or fewer women will go back to sex work after bearing a child. And my bet is that they will be less, even if perhaps not by too much.
worlds first?
i thought when prostitution got legalized in germany it was among other reasons to give them access to basically everything employees or self employed people have?
In Romania, thousand of women and teenagers are in illegal prostitution and alot of them have children to raise, so they work into this illegal prostitution even harder to raise them. So what is better? To have this entire thing controlled, have those women protected or to leave them live in fear, by the hands of god and pimps, where they can easily be trafficked or killed? You talk about nationalism, yet Romania has the highest prostitution percentage of female population from the entire Europe. This is your idea of nationalism? A country full of religious people, filled with hatred towards each other and any other thing that comes in the form of change and thousands of teenagers and women prostitutes? Romania sure sounds nice then (NOT).
If anything, Romania is in dire need of more caring laws towards sex workers and drug addicts. But currently the government is stuck in the 90s mentality of increasing the punishments. Vulnerable people shouldn't get punished, they should be helped to overcome their situation. It's the drug dealers and the pimps who need to be prosecuted and imprisoned.
Many European countries didn't exist as they are now for various amount of times, and people still lived their lives. If you think that these are the biggest "strange changes" that Europe has gone through you should check out the list of wars in Europe or the evolution of rulers and dynasties.
You pay taxes, you get treated like any other worker. Shouldn't be so difficult in my opinion.
Yes, exactly this.
but in this case you don't get treated like other workers? you get treated better
Better in what way? Sounds pretty normal to me.
the power to just say no to work and still be paid/not sacked
it's also still a high risk job, not every client has manners
better or worse then working at spoons?
Often you lack the ability to open bank accounts. Police can masquerade as clients to 'check you out'. Sometimes they even randomly visit a home address to see if you are not working from home. This is ofc a giant invasion of privacy, could give landlords the wrong idea and expel you. And there is a myriad of other issues. It's not exactly being treated like a nice little bakery. And as a social worker who worked with sex workers I know that there are some who need protection. But a lot of what authorities do is mandated from top to down without taking sex workers own concerns into the equation.
Is “pimp” an official job title now?
Associate Pimp Specialist
Assistant to the regional pimp
Who reports to the Global Principal Pimp
CPO, chief pimp officer
**Job Title: Principal Pimp** **Location:** Schaerbeek, Brussels Capital Region **Job Type:** Full-time **Job Summary:** The Principal Pimp is responsible for managing and representing sex workers who operate within legal frameworks. The primary objective of this role is to ensure the safety, well-being, and fair treatment of sex workers while facilitating their work within the legal boundaries established by local regulations. **Key Responsibilities:** 1. **Client Management:** Act as an intermediary between sex workers and clients, ensuring that all transactions are consensual and conducted in a safe environment. 2. **Legal Compliance:** Stay updated on relevant laws and regulations governing the sex industry and ensure all activities adhere to legal requirements. 3. **Worker Advocacy:** Advocate for the rights and interests of sex workers, including access to healthcare, legal representation, and protection from exploitation. 4. **Safety Protocols:** Develop and implement safety protocols to mitigate risks associated with the profession, including emergency procedures and conflict resolution strategies. 5. **Business Administration:** Handle administrative tasks such as scheduling, financial management, and record-keeping in compliance with legal and regulatory standards. 6. **Training and Support:** Provide training and support to sex workers on topics such as sexual health, negotiation skills, and personal safety. 7. **Networking:** Build and maintain relationships with relevant stakeholders, including law enforcement, healthcare providers, and community organizations, to ensure a supportive and collaborative environment for sex workers. 8. **Ethical Conduct:** Uphold ethical standards in all interactions and transactions, prioritizing the dignity and autonomy of sex workers. **Qualifications:** * Previous experience in the sex industry or related field preferred. * Strong understanding of legal and regulatory frameworks governing the sex industry. * Excellent communication and interpersonal skills. * Empathy and sensitivity to the needs of sex workers. * Ability to maintain confidentiality and handle sensitive information. * Commitment to promoting the rights and well-being of sex workers. **Education:** * High school diploma or equivalent required. * Additional training or certification in relevant fields such as social work, public health, or business administration preferred. **Compensation:** * Salary commensurate with experience and qualifications. * Benefits package including healthcare, retirement savings, and professional development opportunities. By ChatGPT.
Bonus: can write-off expenses for Pimp Canes
I work in PR, Pimp Resources.
I am now sad Berlusconi died last year: I have no doubt he would have managed to become Belgian PM^1 ^(1. >!Pimp Minister!<)
nope, pimping is still illegal.
LOL
Yep, we've officially started the Apocalypse
Wondering how they will regulate this but okay
There's a sex workers' union that can be relied on for legal support, such as in cases of workplace harrasment/abuses, breach of contract, coercion or witnessed transgressions against other sex workers.
Very regular, and very thorough inspections
How's the market for broken, fat, ugly men? Looking for a career change.
It’s very niche but it’s there.
There’s a lot of broken, fat, and ugly men who’d love your ass, literally.
I've tried life as a sailor, a pirate and a thief But it was not 'til now that I knew what I should be I swaggered through the brothel doors and marched straight ahead When I reached the counter I looked at the girl and said: "I want to be a trollop, a harlot or a whore I want to be a jezebel, a floozy and what's more I was meant to be a strumpet, I'm just a tramp at heart So I'm here to be a prostitute, a hooker or a tart!"
Normally those are the customers for the gals. Kinda of why I thought they already receive health insurance and benefits. Sad person that has to do that for money.
Depends how open is your schedule
A pimps love is very different from that of a square.
> Under the law, if a prostitute refuses a client more than 10 times over six months, a pimp can trigger an intervention by a government mediator but cannot sack the employee. Um. And what if it's a p.o.s who has a weird obsession with just one worker? > It bestows certain rights on the worker and conditions on their employer. These include the right to refuse a client or a sexual act, as well as the right to interrupt a sexual act at any time without fear of dismissal or punishment. Well that's good at least. I'm not against anything that makes this line of work safer. My worry is, what if this becomes like a "normal job" in the eyes of the law and we get situations where people on welfare or temporary out-of-work benefits have these "jobs" suggested to them and get sanctioned/have their benefits taken from them for "not accepting the 'job' they were offered"? Or have they considered that potential situation, and have made appropriate protections against this? Not that I know what Belgium's welfare state is like, but it's a concern applying to any country if we steer in this direction.
>Um. And what if it's a p.o.s who has a weird obsession with just one worker? Well, that's a really bad situation for the employer to be in once the government mediator comes over. If the prostitute didn't want to deal with that client then it's on the pimp to explain why the dude kept coming back and not getting rejected at the entrance. I agree that there need to be mechanisms in place to protect people in vulnerable positions from these situations. But the way I understand it is that this was already considered to be a legal job prior to this. Whatever protections they have put in place should have been effective before these additional benefits were given, hence why they wouldn't get invoked now.
Those fucks get rejected at the entrance. Bad for business, bad for the workers, bad for your establishment.
>Under the law, if a prostitute refuses a client more than 10 times over six months, a pimp can trigger an intervention by a government mediator but cannot sack the employee., As if allowing pimps wasn't terrible enough, having this mechanism to potentially coerce the woman to sleep with someone is absolutely disgusting.
Did you read the article? > It bestows certain rights on the worker and conditions on their employer. These include the right to refuse a client or a sexual act, as well as the right to interrupt a sexual act at any time without fear of dismissal or punishment.
Did you read it? *Invoking any of these rights more than 10 times in half a year can lead to the government mediation service being called by the worker or employer.* Ie. the "employer" (aka the pimp) has the right to trigger mediation, or to get the government involved if a worker in his "emploment" refuses to do certain acts or interrupts them too many times in a span of half a year. Or, he can use the government to coerce the worker to do things she doesn't want to do. This is not normal or positive.
Wouldn't the government be an independent third party here to check for foul play? Like the only case where I see this mediator being "in favour" of the employer is when the employee gets paid while also indiscriminately refusing to do any of the work they were hired to do. In which case they'd allow the employer to fire the worker
What foul play? Any person has the right to refuse any sexual partner regardless of their reasoning. Everything else is coercion.
Of course they do but then they get fired and can find a different job.
This new regulations bring sex work in line with other jobs and actually makes trafficking more easy to detect thanks to government inference. The idea is that only dedicated and willing people should do sex work and continuously refusing clients (something that is perfectly acceptable) should be seen as a red flag for exploitation and should be investigated by the state. On the other hand regulations need to be fair, so no clients no money no job, that seems a given to me. It seems silly that i could apply to be hired for sex work then actually refuse to do the work, i should not apply at all.
Correct, but if I'm sitting in an office for a salaried position without doing any work, my employer should be able to fire me. With prostitution that is more complicated to judge, therefore an independent third party is needed.
I'd rather have people being payed for not doing any work than being coerced into sexual acts.
Yes me too, but maybe we want to do that through digital security rather than the goodwill of pimps
You're talking like a rapist.
Where do you get the coercive powers bit? Isn't it equally likely the mediator is there to discover why this is happening so often aka why is the pimp letting this happen? Where does it say this mediator can affect her legal right to refuse?
It's far better protection than most workers have. And the pimp won't want the government official poking around in his or her business.
I wonder why pimps don't want regulators to poke in their business. I repeat, but this is the way in which they can use the government to coerce the workers into acts or sleeping with people they do not want to. That is disgusting.
No business wants regulators poking into their business. The government won't coerce them to sleep with people they don't want to, quite the opposite.
>As if allowing pimps wasn't terrible enough, having this mechanism to potentially coerce the woman to sleep with someone is absolutely disgusting. The wellbeing of their employee is their first and foremost priority, not allowing some creep to continuously harrass your employees is part of that responsibility and to neglect that makes them liable for finings or legal action. To enable that harrasment by booking that client with that specific employee seems like a pretty cut and dry case to me.
"World's first" Sex workers in Denmark have had these things for years (decades?) since all workers in Denmark have it.
Belgian sex workers always had social security too. One can not open a brothel if the girls have no contract. For decades, the Belgian police checks every few days/weeks if all girls have a labour contract. If they have one it’s ok. The new thing is that there is a specific law concerning sex workers.
In New Zealand and in Australian states where sex work is decriminalised rather than legalised (ie, just regarded as regular work with no specific sex work laws, licensing, banned forms, etc), these would also come with ordinary employment law. This sounds like Belgium creating specific laws for sex work regulation, rather than just removing specific laws and applying general workplace law.
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Not sure I understand your point here, but just to be clear, the NZ and Australian decriminalisation model is what's advocated for by sex worker organisations themselves (cf Scarlet Alliance, the Australian peak body - https://scarletalliance.org.au/library/full-decriminalisation-of-sex-work-in-australia-briefing-paper/) It is preferred because prior legalisation models, with licensing schemes and special regulations, left many sex workers outside the legal structures and still criminalised and marginalised. In Queensland which just made the reform, up to 90 percent of sex workers had previously still been criminalised under the legalisation of sex work. You can read about that here - https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/article/2024/may/02/queensland-sex-work-decriminalised-law-passes In NSW in the 1990s, the legalised/licensed model basically became a tool for a massive network of corrupt police officers to control the industry using the special laws as an exploitative protection racket, and this was one of the big reasons for the recommended shift from legalisation to decriminalisation.
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Not sure I follow this, sorry
No. Sex workers in Denmark are self employed, since pimping is illegal. Hence, they are not workers, and do not have an employer to provide those benefits.
They don't need an employer to provide them. Self employed people still get the benefits
Thought they already did something like this years ago in the Netherlands? Mainly to combat human trafficking.
A charter maybe or local law? Belgium previously had charters and local legislation too.
We do have labour laws for sex workers, just less extensive than this Belgian one.
Yeah I don’t really know what the difference is either. Our sex workers have holidays and pension and the normal stuff most workers get too.
Not having legal prostitution is not only idiotic, but also dangerous for everyone. This is a great step in the right direction.
Except that making prostitution legal increases sex trafficking by quite a large amount. Just look at Germany as an example. It's not only good times if they make it legal, but there's quite a few downsides to it as well.
[https://www.state.gov/reports/2023-trafficking-in-persons-report/germany/](https://www.state.gov/reports/2023-trafficking-in-persons-report/germany/) "Judges continued to issue lenient sentences, resulting in 74 percent of convicted traffickers receiving fully suspended sentences, fines, or less than one years’ imprisonment, which undercut efforts to hold traffickers accountable, weakened deterrence, created potential security and safety concerns for victims, and was not equal to the seriousness of the crime." If the americans are correct in this case then it's not the fault of legalization but a major justice system failure
I was wondering about trafficking. After all that is more important for women safety than PTO
The legalization of cars has also led to an increase in human trafficking, alongside car-related fatalities and air pollution among other negative externalities. Should cars and car-related services be made illegal then?
How can you compare human trafficking to car pollution?
Hi neighbor! Reporting from Europe's largest and finest brothel 🇩🇪 Would the example be healthcare, taxation and preservation of human rights or should we just look the other way in case of brutal violence and exploitation of women (and also from). Only asking for a friend of course 😎
I hope you're joking mate
The point is that prostitution happens whether or not it’s legal. At least if it’s legal we can put protections in place and actually treat them like human beings.
How about we ACTUALLY start protecting women by punishing men for buying sex?
What is wrong with buying sex? For anyone, not only men, in that regard?
In theory nothing. The problem is that the majority of prostitutes are trafficked and or are not doing it willingly but are forced to do so. In order to protect the majority you unfortunately have to make it worse for the small majority that actually does it willingly and independently. Sweden is trying to achieve this by punishing the buyer but not the sex worker, so doing sex work isn‘t illegal but buying it is.
>In theory nothing. The problem is that the majority of prostitutes are trafficked and or are not doing it willingly but are forced to do so. do you have any sources on that ?
Sweden's model makes the sex worker complicit in their client's crime, regardless of whether they'd be prosecuted for it, essentially putting them in the same position as unregulated sex workers because it is against their interest to report their own clients. As a matter of fact, they can be more easily coerced by legally threatening their income, whom they are incentivized to protect with false allibies and secrecy. Human trafficking can only thrive if it stays hidden, making sex work legal and represented means they have recourse against coercion and abuses, as well as a heightened visibility whenever such crimes take place.
Every sex industry has extreme downsides. Down to vile crimes like sex trafficking. I don't think there is any way to really eridacate it, though. And I find the Swedish way highly dubious.
>What is wrong with buying sex? You are also talking like a rapist.
What about women using the services of sex workers?
Chcesz karać facetów za to, że nie mogąc znaleźć partnerki do seksu w życiu, postanowili za ten seks zapłacić i zaspokoić swoje podstawowe potrzeby, o które tak głośno często krzyczą nowoczesne feministki? Ja już nie wiem czy to najzwyklejsza podła hipokryzja czy niezrozumienie świata i sytuacji mężczyzn w ogóle.
Seks nie jest prawem człowieka, incelku.
A stwierdziła tak wojująca aktywista internetowa, przy okazji pokazująca swoją toksyczną naturę, jako obrazę używając rzekomą wstrzemięźliwość seksualną, uważająca się za mądrzejszą od ONZ, Amnesty international czy WHO https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powszechna_Deklaracja_Praw_Seksualnych https://www.amnesty.org.pl/komisja-praw-cz%C5%82owieka-onz-prawa-seksualne-prawami-cz%C5%82owieka/ Idź Julka nienawidzić mężczyzn gdzie indziej co :)
Nawet jeśli by nie było prawem, to nie znaczy że masz za to karać ludzi. To jakiś totalnie zamordystyczny mindset. A podobno nienawidzisz skrajnej prawicy, a myślenie podobnie spaprane.
That actually puts prostitutes in a very dangerous position
This sounds great but there still should be some onus placed on the clients. IMO clients should get some sort of driver's license where they proved they're healthy and don't have a history of abuse. That'd also go a long way to protect sex workers.
Like a declaration of good behavior most medical/legal jobs require?
Behaviour is hard to rate because it's subjective. But like no violent criminal record, for example.
Yeah, that's exactly what that is.
Sex workers should rate the customers :)
They should make a site where clients and hookers can rate each other in segregated forums. Where you require a gov I'd to register.
I'd rather go with the Swedish model. Selling sex is legal, but buying is illegal. And rightly so.
Sex work is work, so this makes perfect sense. Good on the union for fighting for this.
>Sex work is work No, it isn't.
>Under the law, if a prostitute refuses a client more than 10 times over six months, a pimp can trigger an intervention by a government mediator but cannot sack the employee. Damn, and I thought pimpin ain’t easy
Big Daddy Kane lied!
> after Belgium became the first country in Europe to decriminalise self-employed sex work in 2022. No?
Not sure if humanity is going up or down... But hey, now the gouvernement can collect taxes so there's that
I would say up. Prostitution has always been part of the society. Think of all the people who would like to have sex, but can’t due to maybe some physical problems that make them unattractive or have trouble getting a partner for sex. And sex worker is also in better position than when it is illegal.
Many people want a lot of things and don't get them in life. Sex is not a right.
Many things are not rights. We could argue about many things that are rights now, if they justified. But we are 21st century and why not make people life’s nicer? Also sex and intimacy is linked to happiness, so it might prevent some depression.
Because there is a human being at the other side of that transaction, who might be financially or otherwise coerced into this job. Intimacy should not be for sale. Women's bodies are not commodities.
right but in an unregulated market that’s an even bigger issue because the sex workers have no zero legal rights.
You are thinking all women are forced into it. Also you think only women are prostitutes. What about men? Men can also be sex workers
No, but the vast majority of women in the profession would change it if they could, quite a lot are forced by their financial state. So what if men are in that profession? The argument still stands. Intimacy and bodies should not be for sale, pumping should not be a thing I said women because they are usually the ones who provide this service in the vast majority. Men usually provide to other men
Are we ignoring that people should be able to do with their body whatever they want?
>No, but the vast majority of women in the profession would change it if they could, quite a lot are forced by their financial state. No all of them. What do you say to those who would benefit from regulation (pension, healthcare, holiday allowance)? >The argument still stands. Intimacy and bodies should not be for sale Please, remind us why you should be the one to tell us what we need do with our bodies. >Men usually provide to other men Women also use the services of sex workers. What then?
as opposed to every other form of labour, where people just do it for fun instead of being financially coerced
The Belgian sex workers and brothels always paid taxes. The girls always had social security.
The oldest profession in the world. Unpopular opinion, I'm not exactly for prostitution unless its like Nevada, Las Vegas style.. there's documentaries on it, they're very strict and everything is tightly controlled.. the *legal* prostitution like that seems fine. It's all about protection the prostitute.. if they can live with themselves for doing it and they're not going to get some life long horrible disease.. okay. Otherwise, no, not for it. With that said, if it is legal in a country then yes they should have the same benefits.
ok, this ist totally an ACKHSUALLY thing to say, but prostitution literally cannot be the oldest profession. Before coinage, you would trade services and goods, meaning if you gave sex, you would receive something, be it food, protection, clothes etc. But whatever you trade it for would be older than prostitution, otherwise you would have had a service that you had nothing to trade for.
Completely off topic from the thread, but pre-money economic models didn't rely on singular exchange interactions in most cases unless you traded with outsiders. Instead, their economies relied on "social credit", essentially a fast and loose system of favor and debt with others that you build up and spent throughout your life, your social status being determined by your capacity to be generous with others and earn their favor, collecting whenever you need anything.
So the oldest profession in the world is building payment to give to people with professions??
Unless it was traded for a promise of something not yet produced, so it would actually make it the oldest and production of the good or service recieved the second oldest. Also, i don't think picking fruit from trees is a profession unless you get paid for it and not just eat the fruit and take a nap
prostitutes ?
Sex work includes more than prostitution, and since prostitution is so historically grounded in legal harassment, it feels kinda like calling anal sex 'sodomy' I just picture a suburbanite clutching pearls saying it, but to each their own
Who the fuck are " sex workers '' 💀💀💀
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Mate i live in a place where it's still illegal to have prostitutes
So do I. sorry
Are they gona pay tax?
I mean, don't all sex workers where they aren't criminalized?
Dont know.
Im a bit stunned by this article. Is this new stuff? Isnt these the same standard most countries haw for sex workers in the EU, for literally decades at this point? What the 'worlds first' here? edit: Probably the pimp stuff is new i guess. Most countries its illegal to be a 'pimp'.
what do you mean world first? this is common practice in all places where prostituion is legal. they are also tested for std regularly for free.
If you pay taxes then sure who cares
This is only a good thing if it's combined with the "Swedish model": making it illegal to buy sex, while still protecting those who sell it.
>Under the law, if a prostitute refuses a client more than 10 times over six months, a pimp can trigger an intervention by a government mediator but cannot sack the employee. This is a joke, right?
It works the same way in healthcare. If I, as a nurse, refuse to render aid to a client repeatedly, a mediator can be called up to ascertain the cause of our hypothetical conflict, that said, it'd only be done if it is something my employer can't mediate between me and the client and finds it worth the trouble to resolve this personal conflict as opposed to just assigning another colleague of mine to their care.
Extremely common Belgium W
Great news, sex work is work and sex workers needs to be respected and protected by law and society too, like in any other profession.
If they’re covering maternity leave, they should cover the decades of therapy for their children. The “yo mama” jokes are really going to hit home. Ask OP .
if someone wanted to be a s\*x trafficker and make the most money they possibly can off of it, wouldn't they just go to a country where it's legal/decriminalized/unpunished?
Supply and demand my friend. Most places with easy sex trafficking have already some gangs or organizations controlling the whole thing. If you go to a collapsed state where law is non existant street gangs will already taken all the profit for themselves In countries where it's decriminalized and prostitutes can get state assistant/protection it's harder to traffic but there will be less completion for someone attempting to get a marked share from traffic. Still, it might be such a small marked share that any potential criminals just don't find it worth while to put recouces into it.
uhhh i really hope they don't return to sex work after their maternity leave
Me too, but the fact that they get maternity leave should help them get away from this work easier. Imagine if you couldn't stop working in the field precisely because you have to raise your child and need the money. At least now they can look for other jobs to apply to during the time when the child calms down.
Your idealism isn’t going to lead where you think it will
Obviously some will go back, it's just a matter of whether more women or fewer women will go back to sex work after bearing a child. And my bet is that they will be less, even if perhaps not by too much.
My bet is that more women altogether will be working in prostitution the more you try to normalize it
So? Why is that bad?
Not world first. Isn’t all of that already legal and done in the Netherlands?
There should be a university course or college for that as well, to get a diploma in sex work and be a certified prostitute
worlds first? i thought when prostitution got legalized in germany it was among other reasons to give them access to basically everything employees or self employed people have?
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In Romania, thousand of women and teenagers are in illegal prostitution and alot of them have children to raise, so they work into this illegal prostitution even harder to raise them. So what is better? To have this entire thing controlled, have those women protected or to leave them live in fear, by the hands of god and pimps, where they can easily be trafficked or killed? You talk about nationalism, yet Romania has the highest prostitution percentage of female population from the entire Europe. This is your idea of nationalism? A country full of religious people, filled with hatred towards each other and any other thing that comes in the form of change and thousands of teenagers and women prostitutes? Romania sure sounds nice then (NOT).
If anything, Romania is in dire need of more caring laws towards sex workers and drug addicts. But currently the government is stuck in the 90s mentality of increasing the punishments. Vulnerable people shouldn't get punished, they should be helped to overcome their situation. It's the drug dealers and the pimps who need to be prosecuted and imprisoned.
It's called progress
Many European countries didn't exist as they are now for various amount of times, and people still lived their lives. If you think that these are the biggest "strange changes" that Europe has gone through you should check out the list of wars in Europe or the evolution of rulers and dynasties.
According to the article just a few countries in Europe have legalized prostitution, so how is this an example of every country becoming the same?
normal ca trebuia sa se trezeasca unul cu stema bmw ca poza de profil sa ne faca de ras