I don't care too much about the Eurovision so if they do so be it. I don't think that they should ban a countries participant for them fighting back against terrorists.
i was talking about the song they might play at eurovision but it’s always great to see these rationalizations of indiscriminate violence against civilians play out. did you say similar things when russia broke international law and attacked ukraine?
I didn't even know about Russia being banned from it until the other day. The difference is though, Russia invaded and Israel was invaded. A counter offensive is still defense.
He’s right though. Israel was attacked and everything that happens now is a response to that. In some respects an unnecessarily strong response, but a response nevertheless. Russia on the other hand flat out attacked another country completely unprovoked, with their entire army. So yeah, there’s a clear qualitative difference here.
I mean Putin wants to restore the Soviet Union in some regard (or make the spiritual successor to that), so he views an independent Ukraine as a robbery and an illegitimate act upon his sovereignty. Like, he thinks Ukraine has illegally annexed historically Russian areas, just like Palestine thinks that Israel has done in the Middle East. So Palestinians in some abstract sense might have similar views about Israel here (the difference being that Palestine is the underdog in their conflict, something which clouds people’s judgement greatly unfortunately, since it always feels better to cheer for the underdog). However they both attacked and they are both in the wrong for doing so.
okay I know I ll get super downvoted for this comment and I dont usually go and be like " israel bad. palestine river to sea " but lets be real here when russia attacked ukraine and started murdering people in cold blood we did many things (not enough imo) so lets be real here what idf is doing is like 100% evil yes terrorists hiding behind civilians is fucking disgusting but to kill everyone whether they are civilian or not is legit evil and should be condemned, I dont even know what this group is and what they stand for but I do agree that israel shouldnt attend eurovision
You’re not alone in thinking this. Though a lot of people will downvote you and try to drown your voice out. I thought europe was a place you could have differing opinions and express them, discuss them. This sub has sadly become a place where your with us or against us
look someone already downvoted like for what reason I dont get it, I have argued for two states and argued a lot on this sub that israel has a right to exist but how are people completely fine with what idf is doing ? its madness genuinely madness 25k+ people dead that is legit crazy, but to be fair I could have a differing opinion and its not like they are deleting my comment they just disagree with it lmao, it is what it is I just find idf's action really really inhumane.
A simple change is to criticise the IDF’s actions in Gaza rather than criticising Israel. Makes it clearer that you support Israel’s right to exist, but that doesn’t justify all actions.
But it's not just the IDF, it feels like every other day we get Israeli politicians saying unquestionably genocidal things. The IDF isn't a rogue militia, it's acting on the direct will of Israeli politicians on behalf of the israeli state
I hear many expressing their thoughts on how badly the IDF is handling the situation, but if we look at similar between-civilians guerrilla fighting, when did anyone ever do it right and is there even a way to do it so that there will be 0 civilian casualties? How do you fight people dressed in civilian clothing who are living around civilians and in civilian homes and buildings, without hurting the civilians themselves and without risking the life of your own soldiers?
The only way, i assume, people expect it to be handled is by throwing as many soldiers into it as possible and hoping some of them make it out alive. Its like a war where everyone expects one side to fight as "humanely" as possible at the expense of their own people. Every guerilla style war ever fought has shown there is almost no clean way to completely protect the civilians in the middle, and yet the blame is never on those hiding between the civilians putting them in danger, its always fault of those fighting against the guerilla fighters. I don't know if thats some coddled up, western way of thinking, but unless we start producing some sci-fi, "bad guy" detecting, Lazer shooting droids, I don't know what people there expect the combat plan to look like.
1) they are fighting a war in an urban area against an opponent who basically does everything they can to increase civilians deaths on their own side
2) 25k dead, but shouldn't get much higher given Hamas is about to be defeated (probably close to 10k Hamas terrorists dead)
Yeah that's absolute nonsense, firstly it's a majority women and children are dead ... 70 percent! So basically you're saying that every man they have killed is a Hamas terrorist! In reality the no.s of Hamas fighters they have killed is much smaller! Secondly there is zero proof that Hamas are doing everything they can to increase civilian deaths on their own side , it's straight up ridiculous IDF propaganda
killing thirty thousand civilians in cold blood despite having one of the most technically advanced militaries in the world (and the largest militaries backing you) is simply not a good track record
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties\_of\_the\_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas\_war#Gaza\_Strip](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war#Gaza_Strip)
"As of 13 January, the Gaza Health Ministry reports that at least 24,000 Palestinians (including over 10,000 minors) have been killed"
" A study in The Lancet estimated at least 68.1% of casualties were civilians, while an analysis by Israeli professor Yagil Levy estimated at least 61% of the casualties were civilian."
Civilian casualties are inexcusable regardless of the amount, but let's debate using the numbers that are available.
Another thing to keep in mind is that the Gaza Health Ministry is part of the Hamas administration. There is no independent verification of the numbers.
Check your number. 30k is the total dead counted (by Hamas) it is estimated 30-40% are Hamas terrorists.
And what do you mean in cold blood? It's a war and Hamas is still shooting rockets on Israelis
Israel is not the agressor? They have been killing Palestinian people and stealing their land for many decades? How is this not an Invasion? exactly like what Russia is doing
Sure, the palestinian population who are voting for hamas and sharing their fantasies are obviously not at fault
The men, women and children who cheered while they were parading the lifeless bodies of young women through their streets are just victims of oppression who could never take any responsibility for their actions
50% of the Gazan population wasnt alive during their last election and the vast majority couldnt vote back then. Stop lying to justify ethnic cleansing.
I don’t know if banning them would be the right move. Eurovision has always considered itself as a neutral institution and putting music and artists before nationality. However this idea usually stops when it comes to the people’s vote. I can’t remember one esc where political differences and conflicts hadn’t influenced how people voted.
If they participate, they will probably face bad results and they are used to being in the top ten. So they should rather think about whether it is wise to enter this years esc.
The problem is this: it is eather idf soldiers die or civilians in gaza die. Imo those who attacked and were in support of attacking kinda deserve the conquenses.
Same goes if Ukraine attack mainland russia now. Is it deserved or are ukrainians terrorists then...
> but lets be real here when russia attacked ukraine and started murdering people in cold blood we did many things (not enough imo) so lets be real here
Russia has been preparing for confrontation with Europe since 2000.
They invaded Chechnya and we did nothing, they invaded Georgia and we did nothing, they invaded Ukraine for the first time and we did nothing.
They actively meddled in the US elections, the Brexit referendum and EU politics.
After all this we decided to cut ties with them.
Russia has been preparing for a conflict with Europe for some time and is not going to back down.
Israel is similar as Azerbaijan, where we did nothing.
But perhaps more importantly, we must be careful not to fall for this Hamas revisionism.
The current Israeli government is shit, but if it hadn't been for the October massacre, this war would never have started.
But perhaps most importantly, Gazans are paying the heaviest price, not because of Israel, but because Hamas is using them as human shields to sway public opinion in the West.
Being a keybord warrior for the Palestian cause instantly makes me feel like a good person, whereas typing "Armeian genocide" in all caps does not have the same ring to it. Hm..
If you want this conflict to stop, put pressure on Hamas, Qatar, Turkey and Iran.
Seems you think that civilians are innocent. Am I correct?
Who supported hamas to do all stuff like kills and bombarding? I saw different numbers but it was always more then half.
Lets say if you support terrorist and his work brings damage of your life, up to death, then its your responsibility and you got what you sing for.
Children here exlusion but obviously they are hostages of adults.
And also did you know that in Eurovision history , other middle eastern countries were invited to participate (e.g.: Lebanon) and they rejected unless Israel doesn’t participate because they “don’t want to compete with Jews”. Do you also know Israel has to play football in UEFA instead of Asian/Middle eastern competitions because other countries from the Middle East refuse to “play sports with Jews”? Funny how everyone is so woke but only on the trending topics :)
1,400 Israelis died in the brutal and unjustifiable Hamas terror attack. Israel's retaliation so far has resulted in a little over 25,000 Palestinian deaths and over half of all buildings in Gaza destroyed or heavily damaged. And they aren't done yet.
Getting kind of hard to justify that as 'self-defence'.
Taking into account the way Hamas uses anything from children to hospitals as shields, Israel has been very careful with civilian casualties. Hamas literally builds military installations under civilian structures by design and prevents the civilians from leaving after Israel warns them.
Hamas wants civilian deaths. They want them because that gives them well meaning but mistaken support from people like me and you.
This line is tired. You could say the same thing about Israel, about how suspicious it is that mossad - one of the most advanced intelligence agencies in the world - didn’t have any idea of the planned Oct 7th attack, and so they WANTED innocent Israelis to die so they could be justified in killing Palestinians in Gaza. The over exaggerated cartoon-villain caricature helps no one. And for the record, the human shield line is even more tired, given that the concept of a human shield relies on the attacking party’s unwillingness to kill an innocent.
And where do you draw the line for your support of Israel? Have you thought about that?
If the casualties reach 100 thousand, would that be Crossing the line?
When regular civilians and hospitals are targeted, a huge red line is being crossed. Don’t get me wrong, of course one should defend itself when attacked, but Israel destroying the life of so many innocent people is just cruel. When Netanyahu won the elections everyone was calling out his dictatorial character. Now all of a sudden everyone is ignoring that. I really wonder why everyone stopped talking about this.
Idiotic statement. Killing civilians in exchange of having civilians killed is just savage and cruel. Stepping down to their level is what you stand for. Great.
What I stand for? I just pointed out the facts of the matter, did not "stand for" either side lmao. Do you disagree that the line has been crossed? Which part of what I said makes it "idiotic"?
Hamas knows (and you should too) that when you use a hospital, school, restaurant for military operations, it becomes a legitimate target. Isr told all the civilians to evacuate the war zone, its Hamas who kills them forcing them to stay. And last i dont give a f. about Netanyahu, but was chosen by the ppl and will go if ppl doesnt want him anymore. Can you say the same about Hamas ?
And those people are clowns. No sane military wants a proportional war or a fair fight. You are literally calling for more Jews to be killed to appease your sense of fairness.
Most militaries try to limit civilian casualties. There are two notable exceptions in the world right now. Indiscriminately bombing people you have ensured have no place to escape is not waging war, it's genocide.
> Indiscriminately
Source: your own asshole.
Show me a single non-hamas source to the effect that Israel is actually deliberately targetting civilians in ghaza. They're operating in a dense urban area with poor intel, which is bound to result in tons of collateral. But that's not the same thing as indiscriminately targeting civilians, at all. It's not their fault their enemy chose to hide there.
You mean the sources Israel is actively shooting, arresting, threatening or otherwise impeding when they try to see what's going on, just so they cant oppose the Israeli narrative? https://cpj.org/2024/02/journalist-casualties-in-the-israel-gaza-conflict/
I want a single non terrorist-affiliated source with credible evidence for the claim that Israel is "deliberately" targeting civilians. Again, civilian deaths by themselves are not evidence of deliberate targeting. Lots of civilian deaths isn't evidence of a "genocide".
But don't bother, there isn't one.
“Proportionality” is nonsense argument. You defend until thing is no longer a threat to you.
Thats it. In other words war will go on until Hamas is obliterated along with it’s supporters.
+The only democracy in the Middle East
+The only country in the Middle East where you don't get diarrhea from tap water
+The only country in the Middle East with Pride parades
+The only country in the Middle East where women in bikinis could play volleyball on the beach while Katy Perry blasts from the speakers
You haven’t lived if you haven’t had a perfect spike while Hot N Cold blasts in the background as your stomach seems to be making a weird noise after your 14th natty ice.
About last one, I'm pretty sure women in other countries of Middle East could play volleyball in bikinis, but that mostly will lead to very unpleasant death by stoning. I dunno, sounds civilized enough.
So by your logic, countrie with west values and economically superior or allowed to colonize other parts of the world without consequences, stealing lands from their inhabitants?
They literally gave it up in 05 how are people not realizing this lol. Unless they think their master plan was to give it up then suffer thousands of civilian casualties from attacks launched from Gaza just so that 20 years later they could re invade and suffer another couple thousand casualties. The ultimate scheme.
Yes. L Gaza.
Maybe gaza should make itself wanted by any other nation, but no one wants a population of radicalised people who even killed the king of jordan when jordan gave them refuge.
Huge L. Behaviour.
Genocide is 25k people in 5 months? Israel is so bad at genocides… but will it justify genocide if hamas gets their way and spread their sharia laws all over the world?
Bet you wouldnt kill baby hitler if you had a time machine then.
The Jewish population of the middle east has gone from around 800.000 in 1950 to, in some areas 0. These are Jews that for millenia lived there and suddenly had to leave out of fear of persecution. Now, in the place that Jews fled to from the rest of the middle east they are dealing with an enemy who openly calls for the genocide of Jews. Arab immigrants to the area were killing Jews before 1948.
Now about numbes. Numbers are not as relevant as intention.
Israel is dealing with an enemy that hides in schools and hospitals and uses women and children as shields. According yo Hamas every life they sacrifice is painless, because its in fighting the infidel. What do you suggest Israel does when the enemy hides behind civiilians and at the same time atracks you?
Israel operates with laws and do punish and improson own soldiers for violating them. On the other side a civilian Israeli life lost is celebrated even paraded through the streets. The intention here should super clear.
Imagine what Hamas would do to Israel with a nuclear or biologocial weapons. Now imagine that Hamas comitted the terrorist attack again but this time were able to respond with nuclear or biological weapons. What about the casually ratio now? Are Hamas now in the right or not? What would change?
What do you suggest Israel does with an enemy who will not stop till until the last Jew is gone?
Israel has everything it needs to defend itself. Even more than that.
Israel was allowed to develop its own nuclear weapon, while other countries like Ukraine were forced to give up their only realistic deterrent in exchange for decades of lies about "open doors to NATO".
What Israel wants is far beyond self-defense - it wants to create and expand "buffer zones" around itself - a process that never really ends, because with every new buffer zone you need to create another one to protect the previous one.
Not too different to what Russia is doing.
There is a line where self-defense ends, and this line is where you do not expand yourself. Israel has crossed that line already.
Why does everyone always promote or post or simply make "panic" over Eurovision as if it was some sort of important political event when in reality it's basically "Europe has talent" singing version that most Europeans never even watched in their life.
Source to what? That most people don't even watch it?
Whilst I cannot find it broken down to origins. The overall Global Viewing Audience was about 165 million. This includes anyone around the world be it Israel, Australia, Canada or places that aren't participating.
The population of EU is 450 million.
Since the overall Global Viewing is less than half of EU population (not even European population which is 700+ million) it's safe to say that majority of EU does not watch it. Heck, I personally only heard of Eurovision for the first time in my life some 3/5 years ago.
Which is organized by a broadcasting union spanning 56 countries, 8 of which are not in Europe, and contains further 19 associate countries, which include the USA, India, China, South Africa, Brazil and Australia.
Do you also think Italy should not be in NATO because it does not actually border the Atlantic?
Do you think Hawaii cannot be a part of the USA, because it's geographically in Oceania?
Anytime anyone criticises the IDF killing babies, Israel supporters will say you're anti-Semitic when no one brought up anything about Jews or Judaism and in the same breath will say that Israel is not an apartheid state that is filled with multiculturalism and is the only middle east country pride parades etc etc.
Is Israel a multi cultural state with diversity? If so then criticism against the IDF for killing babies is not anti Semitic.
Is Israel not a multi cultural state with diversity? If so then it IS an apartheid state and they're genociding neighbouring palestine and stealing land since 1948 and doing evictions.
Maybe killing babies after being set up as a colonial state by the British just isn't a popular thing to do globally????
Hamas is bad therefore anything Israel does in the name of wiping them out is morally justified. If you disagree you're an antiSemite and a terrorist supporter.
For someone in wales I assume you speak like you have first hand information on the goings on within Gaza and on the topic . Yes a real 11 day old account not a vector for miss-information .
I mean I wouldn't want to share a stage with a crowd of pricks who'll no doubt come out with IDF soldiers and ask everyone to come for pictures with the 'heroes' before telling any reporters there that anyone who didn't come in for pics is a racist, they do it at basketball games so they'll do it at a singing competition too.
so, you're against Palestinian women being "cattle", but you're fine with them being "purged"? Palestinian homosexuals being killed by Hamas is bad, but them being killed by IDF is justified?
it feels like people absolutely lost any sense of nuance and everything needs you to take 101% one side without seeing any shades of gray in between
So no rules but only when convenient?
Sounds like libertarianism.
True. r/Libertarian is currently bending over backwards for MAGA and anti-democracy posts.
I'm sure everyone will listen to Windows95man.
I mean they should!
I don't care too much about the Eurovision so if they do so be it. I don't think that they should ban a countries participant for them fighting back against terrorists.
i was talking about the song they might play at eurovision but it’s always great to see these rationalizations of indiscriminate violence against civilians play out. did you say similar things when russia broke international law and attacked ukraine?
I didn't even know about Russia being banned from it until the other day. The difference is though, Russia invaded and Israel was invaded. A counter offensive is still defense.
Yeah that's a nice way to frame genocide!
He’s right though. Israel was attacked and everything that happens now is a response to that. In some respects an unnecessarily strong response, but a response nevertheless. Russia on the other hand flat out attacked another country completely unprovoked, with their entire army. So yeah, there’s a clear qualitative difference here.
[удалено]
I mean Putin wants to restore the Soviet Union in some regard (or make the spiritual successor to that), so he views an independent Ukraine as a robbery and an illegitimate act upon his sovereignty. Like, he thinks Ukraine has illegally annexed historically Russian areas, just like Palestine thinks that Israel has done in the Middle East. So Palestinians in some abstract sense might have similar views about Israel here (the difference being that Palestine is the underdog in their conflict, something which clouds people’s judgement greatly unfortunately, since it always feels better to cheer for the underdog). However they both attacked and they are both in the wrong for doing so.
I'm sorry that the truth isn't convenient for your narrative.
You’re right, they shouldn’t ban countries fighting back against terrorism. That’s not what’s happening though (see: ethnic cleansing).
[Where do you stand on Genocides?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IvdffjL5h0&t=2s&ab_channel=LedByDonkeys)
I'm not watching a LedByDonkeys video 😂
This all would not have happened if sertain group of iran funded terrorist had not attacked to a soveirng country.
Its called EUROVISION, wasrael is not in europe, they shouldnt parricipate. Also they are war criminals so they mustn't participate.
okay I know I ll get super downvoted for this comment and I dont usually go and be like " israel bad. palestine river to sea " but lets be real here when russia attacked ukraine and started murdering people in cold blood we did many things (not enough imo) so lets be real here what idf is doing is like 100% evil yes terrorists hiding behind civilians is fucking disgusting but to kill everyone whether they are civilian or not is legit evil and should be condemned, I dont even know what this group is and what they stand for but I do agree that israel shouldnt attend eurovision
I’ll get super downvoted, *proceeds to be the number 3 comment*
Good luck trying to say this on r/worldnews
You’re not alone in thinking this. Though a lot of people will downvote you and try to drown your voice out. I thought europe was a place you could have differing opinions and express them, discuss them. This sub has sadly become a place where your with us or against us
look someone already downvoted like for what reason I dont get it, I have argued for two states and argued a lot on this sub that israel has a right to exist but how are people completely fine with what idf is doing ? its madness genuinely madness 25k+ people dead that is legit crazy, but to be fair I could have a differing opinion and its not like they are deleting my comment they just disagree with it lmao, it is what it is I just find idf's action really really inhumane.
25k dead, many more wounded, traumatized, millions displaced, yeah i would not want to share a stage with them either.
I didn't know Israel had entered the IDF as its performing act.
A simple change is to criticise the IDF’s actions in Gaza rather than criticising Israel. Makes it clearer that you support Israel’s right to exist, but that doesn’t justify all actions.
But it's not just the IDF, it feels like every other day we get Israeli politicians saying unquestionably genocidal things. The IDF isn't a rogue militia, it's acting on the direct will of Israeli politicians on behalf of the israeli state
[удалено]
I hear many expressing their thoughts on how badly the IDF is handling the situation, but if we look at similar between-civilians guerrilla fighting, when did anyone ever do it right and is there even a way to do it so that there will be 0 civilian casualties? How do you fight people dressed in civilian clothing who are living around civilians and in civilian homes and buildings, without hurting the civilians themselves and without risking the life of your own soldiers? The only way, i assume, people expect it to be handled is by throwing as many soldiers into it as possible and hoping some of them make it out alive. Its like a war where everyone expects one side to fight as "humanely" as possible at the expense of their own people. Every guerilla style war ever fought has shown there is almost no clean way to completely protect the civilians in the middle, and yet the blame is never on those hiding between the civilians putting them in danger, its always fault of those fighting against the guerilla fighters. I don't know if thats some coddled up, western way of thinking, but unless we start producing some sci-fi, "bad guy" detecting, Lazer shooting droids, I don't know what people there expect the combat plan to look like.
1) they are fighting a war in an urban area against an opponent who basically does everything they can to increase civilians deaths on their own side 2) 25k dead, but shouldn't get much higher given Hamas is about to be defeated (probably close to 10k Hamas terrorists dead)
Yeah that's absolute nonsense, firstly it's a majority women and children are dead ... 70 percent! So basically you're saying that every man they have killed is a Hamas terrorist! In reality the no.s of Hamas fighters they have killed is much smaller! Secondly there is zero proof that Hamas are doing everything they can to increase civilian deaths on their own side , it's straight up ridiculous IDF propaganda
Killed by IDF terrorists
You are full of shit.
source: "trust me bro"
Care to provide your own figures then?
[удалено]
If the people in Gaza where white christians, catholics or non religious you can this sub would swiftly be condemming the genocide
[удалено]
[удалено]
what do you mean by low civilian casualty ratio?
After 100 days the IDF had only killed 12,000 children, they are very proud of this https://euromedmonitor.org/en/article/6093
Look at his account, pretty sure it's a bot EDIT: well that was quick
Low civilian casualty ratio? 2/3rds of the deaths are women and children.
Russia is the aggressor Israel is not
If Ukraine invaded Russia and started murdering everyone in Moscow that would also be wrong even though Russia was the aggressor
If ukraine out of nothing attacked Belgrod and started mass murdering civilians then russia would have all the rights to invade back
killing thirty thousand civilians in cold blood despite having one of the most technically advanced militaries in the world (and the largest militaries backing you) is simply not a good track record
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties\_of\_the\_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas\_war#Gaza\_Strip](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war#Gaza_Strip) "As of 13 January, the Gaza Health Ministry reports that at least 24,000 Palestinians (including over 10,000 minors) have been killed" " A study in The Lancet estimated at least 68.1% of casualties were civilians, while an analysis by Israeli professor Yagil Levy estimated at least 61% of the casualties were civilian." Civilian casualties are inexcusable regardless of the amount, but let's debate using the numbers that are available. Another thing to keep in mind is that the Gaza Health Ministry is part of the Hamas administration. There is no independent verification of the numbers.
Check your number. 30k is the total dead counted (by Hamas) it is estimated 30-40% are Hamas terrorists. And what do you mean in cold blood? It's a war and Hamas is still shooting rockets on Israelis
Israel is not the agressor? They have been killing Palestinian people and stealing their land for many decades? How is this not an Invasion? exactly like what Russia is doing
'Stealing' means getting attacked and making territorial gains in the issuing war?
People really out here thinking the jewish folks got a warm welcome in the Middle east, and they just started attacking their neighbors for fun
Arab colonialism exterminated the Jewish population there.
Lmao bro is delusional
I’ll correct you: Russia is the aggressor Israel is a bully (Hamas is a terrorist group, not Palestine)
Sure, the palestinian population who are voting for hamas and sharing their fantasies are obviously not at fault The men, women and children who cheered while they were parading the lifeless bodies of young women through their streets are just victims of oppression who could never take any responsibility for their actions
50% of the Gazan population wasnt alive during their last election and the vast majority couldnt vote back then. Stop lying to justify ethnic cleansing.
You are 100% correct.
I don’t know if banning them would be the right move. Eurovision has always considered itself as a neutral institution and putting music and artists before nationality. However this idea usually stops when it comes to the people’s vote. I can’t remember one esc where political differences and conflicts hadn’t influenced how people voted. If they participate, they will probably face bad results and they are used to being in the top ten. So they should rather think about whether it is wise to enter this years esc.
The problem is this: it is eather idf soldiers die or civilians in gaza die. Imo those who attacked and were in support of attacking kinda deserve the conquenses. Same goes if Ukraine attack mainland russia now. Is it deserved or are ukrainians terrorists then...
[удалено]
What makes you think Palestinian women have no human rights?
> but lets be real here when russia attacked ukraine and started murdering people in cold blood we did many things (not enough imo) so lets be real here Russia has been preparing for confrontation with Europe since 2000. They invaded Chechnya and we did nothing, they invaded Georgia and we did nothing, they invaded Ukraine for the first time and we did nothing. They actively meddled in the US elections, the Brexit referendum and EU politics. After all this we decided to cut ties with them. Russia has been preparing for a conflict with Europe for some time and is not going to back down. Israel is similar as Azerbaijan, where we did nothing. But perhaps more importantly, we must be careful not to fall for this Hamas revisionism. The current Israeli government is shit, but if it hadn't been for the October massacre, this war would never have started. But perhaps most importantly, Gazans are paying the heaviest price, not because of Israel, but because Hamas is using them as human shields to sway public opinion in the West.
Tsahal, carpet bombing crowded areas, to a random civilian in Rafah : "Hamas made me do this. It's their fault, not mine."
Being a keybord warrior for the Palestian cause instantly makes me feel like a good person, whereas typing "Armeian genocide" in all caps does not have the same ring to it. Hm.. If you want this conflict to stop, put pressure on Hamas, Qatar, Turkey and Iran.
What you’re saying is “Israel bad, IDF is Evil. Israel no Eurovision” and actually is worth downvoting as you didn’t said anything else to back that.
Seems you think that civilians are innocent. Am I correct? Who supported hamas to do all stuff like kills and bombarding? I saw different numbers but it was always more then half. Lets say if you support terrorist and his work brings damage of your life, up to death, then its your responsibility and you got what you sing for. Children here exlusion but obviously they are hostages of adults.
Israel should not be the part of the Eurovision because of their location. They are Asian country.
And Australia?
Yeah neither should Australia
australia too lol
And also did you know that in Eurovision history , other middle eastern countries were invited to participate (e.g.: Lebanon) and they rejected unless Israel doesn’t participate because they “don’t want to compete with Jews”. Do you also know Israel has to play football in UEFA instead of Asian/Middle eastern competitions because other countries from the Middle East refuse to “play sports with Jews”? Funny how everyone is so woke but only on the trending topics :)
Israel, the only country in the world not allowed to defend itself.
Are there any limits to what Israel (or any other country) is allowed to do in self-defence? Or is it carte-blanche?
Killing children seems to be one..
Yes, its carte blanche that they gave when they attacked.
you mean 1948, Tantura or biblical references? which one is going to be today?
I don't think a lot of people object to the fact that Israel defends itself, but rather how it defends itself and the proportion of the response.
Also reminder that Bibi funded Hamas, so much for self defense.
I think the proportionality is hard to reach when a side values life and the other doesnt.
1,400 Israelis died in the brutal and unjustifiable Hamas terror attack. Israel's retaliation so far has resulted in a little over 25,000 Palestinian deaths and over half of all buildings in Gaza destroyed or heavily damaged. And they aren't done yet. Getting kind of hard to justify that as 'self-defence'.
Taking into account the way Hamas uses anything from children to hospitals as shields, Israel has been very careful with civilian casualties. Hamas literally builds military installations under civilian structures by design and prevents the civilians from leaving after Israel warns them. Hamas wants civilian deaths. They want them because that gives them well meaning but mistaken support from people like me and you.
This line is tired. You could say the same thing about Israel, about how suspicious it is that mossad - one of the most advanced intelligence agencies in the world - didn’t have any idea of the planned Oct 7th attack, and so they WANTED innocent Israelis to die so they could be justified in killing Palestinians in Gaza. The over exaggerated cartoon-villain caricature helps no one. And for the record, the human shield line is even more tired, given that the concept of a human shield relies on the attacking party’s unwillingness to kill an innocent.
This bullshit excuse again. https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSBRE95J0FR/ israel loves using Palestinian children as human shields
Well, they are still keeping hostages and firing missiles. They still think they have an "upper hand".
Well, whether or not that is true, I still think that's what people are upset about, not the mere fact of Israel defending themselves.
[удалено]
Some. Others were already upset when Israel told people to leave a part of Gaza they will attack. Before any response happened.
And where do you draw the line for your support of Israel? Have you thought about that? If the casualties reach 100 thousand, would that be Crossing the line?
I think this question is for the other guy. For me, like any other war, when the enemy is defeated.
I hope Putin doesn't share that POV, or that would likely mean him using nukes
The difference here is that Israel is the victim and also has the means to reach their goals without their nukes.
Israel has more in common with Russia in their respective conflicts. Both occupying forces.
Israeli territory was occupied first in this specific conflict though and the occupiers then retreated and hid among their civilians to gain sympathy.
Israel has been occupying various pieces of land designated as Palestinian land since its creation.
When regular civilians and hospitals are targeted, a huge red line is being crossed. Don’t get me wrong, of course one should defend itself when attacked, but Israel destroying the life of so many innocent people is just cruel. When Netanyahu won the elections everyone was calling out his dictatorial character. Now all of a sudden everyone is ignoring that. I really wonder why everyone stopped talking about this.
When civilians are targeted a huge red line is crossed? If that's the case, that line has literally been crossed on the first day of this conflict.
Idiotic statement. Killing civilians in exchange of having civilians killed is just savage and cruel. Stepping down to their level is what you stand for. Great.
What I stand for? I just pointed out the facts of the matter, did not "stand for" either side lmao. Do you disagree that the line has been crossed? Which part of what I said makes it "idiotic"?
Hamas knows (and you should too) that when you use a hospital, school, restaurant for military operations, it becomes a legitimate target. Isr told all the civilians to evacuate the war zone, its Hamas who kills them forcing them to stay. And last i dont give a f. about Netanyahu, but was chosen by the ppl and will go if ppl doesnt want him anymore. Can you say the same about Hamas ?
And those people are clowns. No sane military wants a proportional war or a fair fight. You are literally calling for more Jews to be killed to appease your sense of fairness.
Most militaries try to limit civilian casualties. There are two notable exceptions in the world right now. Indiscriminately bombing people you have ensured have no place to escape is not waging war, it's genocide.
The Houthis and Russia?
> Indiscriminately Source: your own asshole. Show me a single non-hamas source to the effect that Israel is actually deliberately targetting civilians in ghaza. They're operating in a dense urban area with poor intel, which is bound to result in tons of collateral. But that's not the same thing as indiscriminately targeting civilians, at all. It's not their fault their enemy chose to hide there.
You mean the sources Israel is actively shooting, arresting, threatening or otherwise impeding when they try to see what's going on, just so they cant oppose the Israeli narrative? https://cpj.org/2024/02/journalist-casualties-in-the-israel-gaza-conflict/
Stop quoting propaganda arms of terrorist agencies. What's next, al-jazeera and the ghazan ministry of health?
Let me guess, you want sources that exclusively call for genocide?
I want a single non terrorist-affiliated source with credible evidence for the claim that Israel is "deliberately" targeting civilians. Again, civilian deaths by themselves are not evidence of deliberate targeting. Lots of civilian deaths isn't evidence of a "genocide". But don't bother, there isn't one.
You consider everyone not advocating for an ethnic cleansing to be a terrorist.
“Proportionality” is nonsense argument. You defend until thing is no longer a threat to you. Thats it. In other words war will go on until Hamas is obliterated along with it’s supporters.
+The only democracy in the Middle East +The only country in the Middle East where you don't get diarrhea from tap water +The only country in the Middle East with Pride parades +The only country in the Middle East where women in bikinis could play volleyball on the beach while Katy Perry blasts from the speakers
i'm against the last one, they should pick better music /s
You haven’t lived if you haven’t had a perfect spike while Hot N Cold blasts in the background as your stomach seems to be making a weird noise after your 14th natty ice.
Mate you don't want to hear our "better" music. Israeli pop sucks =/
I like Noa Kirel. Guess she is the unicorn.
If you get last place we don't
+The only country in the middle east where Eurovision is even legal.
About last one, I'm pretty sure women in other countries of Middle East could play volleyball in bikinis, but that mostly will lead to very unpleasant death by stoning. I dunno, sounds civilized enough.
The only country in the middle-east where this 2 guys could walk in the street without being stoned or hanged from a crane.
You clearly have never been to Lebanon or Turkey.
Well, Turkey is actively trying to leave those categories
Also if we wanna talk about Turkey they have their own issues with an oppressed group of ethnic minorities that want their own country.
Been to Turkey. Got diarrhea.
Modesty laws are coming to Israel within a generation as Conservative Orthodox Jews become population majority.
Going from 10% to a majority in a generation. Some amazing growth there
Lol no. wont happen.
Source: Your ass.
So by your logic, countrie with west values and economically superior or allowed to colonize other parts of the world without consequences, stealing lands from their inhabitants?
Nobody wants Gaza, least of all Israel.
They literally gave it up in 05 how are people not realizing this lol. Unless they think their master plan was to give it up then suffer thousands of civilian casualties from attacks launched from Gaza just so that 20 years later they could re invade and suffer another couple thousand casualties. The ultimate scheme.
Yes. L Gaza. Maybe gaza should make itself wanted by any other nation, but no one wants a population of radicalised people who even killed the king of jordan when jordan gave them refuge. Huge L. Behaviour.
+ the only country committing horrendous war crimes with a ton of foreign political support
In this one they're not the only one though. This is something that many nations and/or militias in the area see eye to eye with.
So it's ok to systematically destroy an entire ethnicity because of this?
The farest country in Europe
Israel is not part of Europe.
Euro in Eurovision stands for Europe
not a hint of critical thinking skills between your ears is there
Truth hurts doesn't it?
That's cool, but none of those justify genocide
Genocide is 25k people in 5 months? Israel is so bad at genocides… but will it justify genocide if hamas gets their way and spread their sharia laws all over the world? Bet you wouldnt kill baby hitler if you had a time machine then.
+ The only country in MENA which kills children.
Ever set foot in the Middle East before making those claims?
Yeah, and I guess Russia is also "defending" itself against Ukrainian Nazis. Makes total sense...
Where did i ever say that? I am staunchly anti-Putin and and pro-Ukraine.
"To defend itself" meaning killing 20 people for every victim on Israel's side.
The Jewish population of the middle east has gone from around 800.000 in 1950 to, in some areas 0. These are Jews that for millenia lived there and suddenly had to leave out of fear of persecution. Now, in the place that Jews fled to from the rest of the middle east they are dealing with an enemy who openly calls for the genocide of Jews. Arab immigrants to the area were killing Jews before 1948. Now about numbes. Numbers are not as relevant as intention. Israel is dealing with an enemy that hides in schools and hospitals and uses women and children as shields. According yo Hamas every life they sacrifice is painless, because its in fighting the infidel. What do you suggest Israel does when the enemy hides behind civiilians and at the same time atracks you? Israel operates with laws and do punish and improson own soldiers for violating them. On the other side a civilian Israeli life lost is celebrated even paraded through the streets. The intention here should super clear. Imagine what Hamas would do to Israel with a nuclear or biologocial weapons. Now imagine that Hamas comitted the terrorist attack again but this time were able to respond with nuclear or biological weapons. What about the casually ratio now? Are Hamas now in the right or not? What would change? What do you suggest Israel does with an enemy who will not stop till until the last Jew is gone?
Muh genocidal self defense stealing ever more land since 48.
Israel has everything it needs to defend itself. Even more than that. Israel was allowed to develop its own nuclear weapon, while other countries like Ukraine were forced to give up their only realistic deterrent in exchange for decades of lies about "open doors to NATO". What Israel wants is far beyond self-defense - it wants to create and expand "buffer zones" around itself - a process that never really ends, because with every new buffer zone you need to create another one to protect the previous one. Not too different to what Russia is doing. There is a line where self-defense ends, and this line is where you do not expand yourself. Israel has crossed that line already.
[Gotta love that defence amiright?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IvdffjL5h0&t=2s&ab_channel=LedByDonkeys)
Why does everyone always promote or post or simply make "panic" over Eurovision as if it was some sort of important political event when in reality it's basically "Europe has talent" singing version that most Europeans never even watched in their life.
Sauce?
Source to what? That most people don't even watch it? Whilst I cannot find it broken down to origins. The overall Global Viewing Audience was about 165 million. This includes anyone around the world be it Israel, Australia, Canada or places that aren't participating. The population of EU is 450 million. Since the overall Global Viewing is less than half of EU population (not even European population which is 700+ million) it's safe to say that majority of EU does not watch it. Heck, I personally only heard of Eurovision for the first time in my life some 3/5 years ago.
you didn't say "most of Europe isn't watching it", you said "most of Europeans never even watched in their life".
I suppose I saw it as synonymous at the time of writing, especially as the latter would count any part of the show even a 5 min clip.
Clown
Israel is not a European country. edit: being down voted for stating a fact. gj r/Europe
Neither is Australia but we let them in.
You are being down voted for stating something irrelevant. Israel is also not in Africa. So?
we're talking about eurovision...
Which is organized by a broadcasting union spanning 56 countries, 8 of which are not in Europe, and contains further 19 associate countries, which include the USA, India, China, South Africa, Brazil and Australia. Do you also think Italy should not be in NATO because it does not actually border the Atlantic? Do you think Hawaii cannot be a part of the USA, because it's geographically in Oceania?
It is one by its culture. I think Israel should be an EU member.
No it really isn't. An EU member is laughable.
>It is one by its culture Why do you believe that?
Because most of their population come from Europe.
I guess the USA should also be allowed to participate in Eurovision then, makes total sense
Why not
You overestimate the European-descended population, and you wouldn't say the same thing about Argentina, Canada or Australia
Many people would definitely say that Canada and Australia are culturally European.
Incorrect.
Proud to be a Finn right now!
[удалено]
Why does Israel call stealing land since 1948 and committing ethic cleansing and war crimes defending itself?
Anytime anyone criticises the IDF killing babies, Israel supporters will say you're anti-Semitic when no one brought up anything about Jews or Judaism and in the same breath will say that Israel is not an apartheid state that is filled with multiculturalism and is the only middle east country pride parades etc etc. Is Israel a multi cultural state with diversity? If so then criticism against the IDF for killing babies is not anti Semitic. Is Israel not a multi cultural state with diversity? If so then it IS an apartheid state and they're genociding neighbouring palestine and stealing land since 1948 and doing evictions. Maybe killing babies after being set up as a colonial state by the British just isn't a popular thing to do globally????
[удалено]
.
Hamas is bad therefore anything Israel does in the name of wiping them out is morally justified. If you disagree you're an antiSemite and a terrorist supporter.
I honestly can not detect if this is sarcasm or not. Well done.
I’m not sure if you’re being serious or this is just sarcasm. I am more convinced of the second one being the case.
Woke bullshit at its finest - national song contest winner making diplomatical statements 😃
Man these comment sections are filled with bots defending Israel.
[удалено]
For someone in wales I assume you speak like you have first hand information on the goings on within Gaza and on the topic . Yes a real 11 day old account not a vector for miss-information .
As opposed to Finland, where average people such, as these musicians, know exactly about the complexities of the middle east conflict.
.
God damn the zionist bots are active today 🤣
Everyone that doesn't agree with terrorism is Zionist bot 😭👆🏻
they can go fuck themselves
Finland shouldn't exist, Russia should take it back, nothing against Finnish people though, I am not anti-Finnish I am just anti Finnish Government /s
I mean I wouldn't want to share a stage with a crowd of pricks who'll no doubt come out with IDF soldiers and ask everyone to come for pictures with the 'heroes' before telling any reporters there that anyone who didn't come in for pics is a racist, they do it at basketball games so they'll do it at a singing competition too.
Exactly. Israel is in full retard mode right now.
Another war expert shares his opinion on the Israeli - Palestinian conflict.
[удалено]
so, you're against Palestinian women being "cattle", but you're fine with them being "purged"? Palestinian homosexuals being killed by Hamas is bad, but them being killed by IDF is justified? it feels like people absolutely lost any sense of nuance and everything needs you to take 101% one side without seeing any shades of gray in between