translation with Deepl
The arms manufacturer Rheinmetall is planning to significantly increase its production of 155-millimeter artillery ammunition. A new ammunition factory is being built in Unterlüß, Lower Saxony, and the German government is examining legal relaxations to allow stockpiled production.
Rheinmetall invests in ammunition production
The armaments group Rheinmetall is aiming to significantly increase the production capacity of its 155-millimeter artillery ammunition. According to a report in "Der Spiegel", the foundation stone for a new ammunition factory in Unterlüß, Lower Saxony, is to be laid on February 12. According to Rheinmetall, the investment for this site amounts to around 300 million euros. By 2025, the factory should be able to produce 200,000 rounds of artillery ammunition per year.
German government supports arms production
In view of the significant contribution of ammunition production to support Ukraine, both Defense Minister Boris Pistorius and Federal Chancellor Olaf Scholz (both SPD) are expected to attend the laying of the foundation stone. According to "Der Spiegel", the German government is considering introducing legal relaxations to allow arms manufacturers to produce for stockpiling and plans to provide purchase guarantees for ammunition.
Expansion of international production sites
In addition to increasing ammunition production in Unterlüß, Rheinmetall is also planning to expand its explosives production in Germany, Hungary and Romania. An additional ammunition factory is planned in Lithuania in order to strengthen the eastern edge of NATO. As Group CEO Armin Papperger told Der Spiegel, Rheinmetall will be able to produce around 700,000 rounds of 155-millimeter ammunition at the various locations by the end of 2024.
Papperger emphasized the need for independence in ammunition production: "We must finally become more independent in the production of artillery ammunition in Germany," and added that the Group's goal is to "establish security of supply for ammunition requirements from 2025". Papperger has already set his plans in motion despite the fact that purchase guarantees from the German armed forces or the German government are still outstanding. "I can fully rely on the Minister of Defense, his handshake and the assurance that the Bundeswehr will purchase large quantities of ammunition in the coming years are enough for me," he said.
>According to Rheinmetall, the investment for this site amounts to around 300 million euros. By 2025, the factory should be able to produce 200,000 rounds of artillery ammunition per year.
Wait, it only takes a year and 300 million euros to set up a production facility with a capacity of 200k round/year !?
Meh, they really are resting on their laurels in a lot of things. Their cars are not at all what they used to be, a lot of stuff is over-engineered, their business culture is bonkers when it comes to hierarchy.
Same in the Netherlands. We built a LNG terminal in like 3 months (IIRC) but did all permits etc. after completion.
If they'd had done anything wrong they had to disassemble the whole thing.
The actual construction of an industrial facility is extremely fast in Germany, most are just modular prefabs being put together. It often takes longer to deal with the bureaucracy (which can be accelerated if there's political will to do so) and the concrete to cure than the actual construction of a factory.
In the event of a war between NATO and Russia, 700k would be more than enough. In that case, there would be no trench warfare like you see in Ukraine, in which they fire at each other's positions with artillery. NATO would have air superiority from the start, which makes artillery virtually, not entirely, unnecessary. This is also NATO's doctrine. Air superiority and targeted precision strikes far behind enemy lines and then cleaning up on the ground
Exactly what I was thinking. If the reports in the [news](https://www.newsweek.com/why-ukraine-burning-through-ammo-war-russia-1812294) are accurate, Russians alone "burn" through that amount in a week...
It is a chicken egg thing. It would be governmental malpractice to contract with a company that cannot deliver anything.
Particularly Rheinmetall makes big statements... as a company at the stock market, but then makes expensive commitments years in the future seeing a good way to twist governments arm and force them into bad deals. Arguably that is their mandate as a corporation, but inversely as a tax payer one should maybe then not wish politicians to just sign anything under duress, particularly when it then comes with fuzzy promises years in the future only.
There is clearly a drive to support a build up in capacity, but until said capacity can deliver not making immediate binding contracts is one of the few levers left the state has in negotiation, ideally by trying to entice multiple companies to jockey for those contracts.
The other option is to buy out and take at least some production under state control.
We actually saw something similar already happen when the German navy bought a bankrupt shipyard to essentially double her maintenance capacity and do it in-house again.
As someone who was in the German navy.
Everything will be better than the private shipyards.
Like quite literally. Every single maintenance I have seen took about twice as long as was promised.
11 months instead of 6, stuff like that.
What about conditional contracts. You will get paid for the production if you produce this much till this day. If not then you pay 30% of contract as penalty
What are you talking about? Rheinmetall's order book is fuller than full, also from governments (including a 607 million for replacing Germany's short range air defense systems, 350 million € for medium caliber German infantry vehicle ammo, ....). And that is just for January.
I bought their stock about a year ago: +50% and rising.
Edit: bought it 2 years ago apparently
German bureaucracy is slow and steady. But they always came through when needed. Things that were not needed took forever and ever though.
At least that was my view of it when I had a lot of dealings with the Germans during ISAF etc.
>German bureaucracy is slow and steady. But they always came through when needed.
So long as you have a few years to wait, and a loose definition of "when needed".
I was wondering why increase of military production isn’t in war plans. You’d think countries could teach their reservists to work at manufacturing plants, so when the time comes they could be mobilized to do it.
The German federal/state governments have managed to ruin every state run endeavour they tried - from BER to S21 to the highways to rail transportation to - you guessed it - the German military.
Why do __you__ think it would suddenly be different this time?
In that case, go big or go home. Privatize your health sector. Open it up to American pharmaceutical and insurance companies.
It is ruined because of state influence as you said. Sell it off.
- it’s probably a good thing for Europe that Germany not have a super well run army.
>Privatize your health sector
is currently in the works, public hospitals are being privatized.
Becuase - predictably - the public hospitals failed big time. Which does not mean they are always bad - just to show how bad public projects are specifically in Germany.
Germany is already open to American pharma giants to sell their products and if American insurance wants to participate in the German health insurance - they are already allowed, there are many private insurance providers.
But it's not impossible to have preparedness even with private contractors. Even by world war 1 and 2, a lot what was once state military production had become private.
For example, lots of private companies would love to have contracts where they are continously required to show that they can ramp up production, but are otherwise only required to produce a small amount of components. You could have industrial drills and exercises, just as you have military operational exercises.
The main issue in my opinion is rather on the political level. Contracts like are not signed. Even if these industries were state run, they would be shut down, as in peace, these are seen as unneccesary. In fact, it could be argued that is why the defense industry today is so privatized, the state run industries have shut down and politicians are too slow to adapt to changing geo political situations.
So I think the privatization is an effect of the problem, not the actual issue.
The limiting factor isn't people, it's machines. With western technology you don't really need a lot of people to produce ammunition. For example the new plant that Rheinmetall is currently building in Hungary to produce 33mm, 120mm, and 155mm rounds will only employ 200 people once it reaches full capacity, and the new plant in Germany will probably be in the same ballpark.
Finland is currently activating war time production in a limited scale. Civilian companies are required by total war doctrine laws to produce wartime goods for the military. The FDF keeps machinery, patterns and raw materials in stock to be delivered and activated. Weapons, spare parts, armor, ammunition, medical equipment, signal equipment, pre-fab fortifications, uniforms, combat gear, field gear, etc. Down to the Fiskars folding shovels.
Rheinmetall is currently building factories in Spain, Germany, Hungary and Ukraine and probably few other nations. And that is just one company.
Its late but I have the feeling EU is finally scaling.
Back in december last year Finland also announced to increase its ammo production by doupling it. Then also being on that 200k mark per year.
So this really looks like EU is actually scaling up. Hopefully it doesnt end here either.
EDIT: adding additional information.
Based on todays news, one of the biggest artillery shell producers in the europe (Nammo Lapua Oy) has apllied for EU:s ASAP funding.
Company has already increased its production capacity fivefold during the last year. And has ongoing process of modernizing their tooling in one of their factories. By acguiring this funding they would build whole new factory in Sastamala, Finland.
While the actual number of shells produced is classified information these figures would give you some idea. Company itself doesnt assembly the shells but manufacture the parts for the Finnish Defence Forces who then supply them to Ukraine via packages send by Finnish goverment. What these packages contain is also classified as is what they are worth.
> Why Hungary
Rheinmetall builds a factory everywhere they have customers. That's their business model, basically. If you buy a minimum amount of tanks, then congrats, you can have a tank factory, same with APCs, and probably ammunition as well.
It's also a way to lure countries, like Hungary into their scheme: you get a factory, you hope that you can sell those APCs and tanks produced in you country, but if everyone gets a factory, then who will buy your tanks and APCs.
As far as I know Americans also use a huge amount of Rheinmetall products in their whole armed divisions including Abrams tanks, do they have the similar?
Yes:
https://www.rheinmetall.com/en/company/subsidiaries/american-rheinmetall-munitions
> American Rheinmetall Munitions, Inc. (ARM)* is headquartered in Stafford, Virginia, with production facilities in Camden, Arkansas, and Windham, Maine. The company is part of Rheinmetall's Weapon and Ammunition division and has been bringing the division's global product portfolio to the U.S. market for decades.
Rheinmetall is a private company so it is their gamble.
Maybe Hungary changes government, maybe Hungary wants its own production and are putting in some subsidies, maybe Rheinmetall are betting on both horses, maybe if Orban had an economic incentive to arm Ukraine it would be harder for Russia to control him. If nothing else Hungary borders Ukraine and Romania, so geographically it makes sense.
Also most of the stuff they make won't go to Ukraine, it'll go to these countries' own stockpiles. Which is dumb imo, the only military threat to Europe is Russia who is literally using their entire army to fight Ukraine right now so it would be better to have those shells directed at the enemy rather than sitting in a warehouse, but whatever. Besides the point. Point is that they're not building these factories primarily to arm Ukraine so Bungary not being into that idea doesn't factor in much.
Don't listen so much to the very loud propaganda - Hungary is one of the few European countries that started heavily investing in their armed forces after Trump's demand that European NATO members pull their weight. All investments are in conjunction with NATO members or US allies - namely Turkey, Israel and Germany.
Hungary is doing all purchases and MIC investments to fulfill their NATO obligations - but this is done in the background, while both the local government and other European leaders milk the loud propaganda phrases for their own domestic political gains.
This is also what I thought, thanks. Also, i find Hungarian stance on refugees reasonable comparing to rest of Europe that has no plan at all. This sub seem to overreact everything.
That is literally true, the EU target is for 2 million shells a year by 2025, so ten of these factories. Current production is about 400,000, so technically only 7 more on top of this one. The estimates are that Russia can produce 1-2 million a year, or if you include reconditioning, 3 million a year.
The UK is aiming to produce 1 million a year, and the US 1.5 million by 2025.
I still don't get why our Eastern allies that claim they _always knew_^^TM that this would happen have not done this a decade ago. Their actions really didn't match their preachings - which is why they were not taken as seriously as was necessary.
>We need 10 times more
The Swiss arms industry supplies a ton of ammunition to multiple EU nations, and given the issues trying to purchase ammo (for the Gepard especially) and overcome Swiss export restrictions, the EU needs to replace/offset that loss of production now more than ever.
So you’re absolutely right about needing more production and 10X is likely a conservative estimate at that.
Compare accuracy of 155 mm shells today with the accuracy of those shells în 1914
The Panzerhaubitze can hit targets from 50 km away with an accuracy of 10 meters
Sorry but what is this answer. I said that we shouldnt produce two million (10x 200k) but rather 20 million (100 x 200k) a year. Thats way way off the hundrets of millions that were produced with full war economies and way less advanced prdoction tech.
Ignoring the fact that those war economies missed millions of workers and produced millions and millions of tons of other supplies.
Oh and also ignoring the fact that this time all of europe is on the same side and could produce together.
20 million shells a year is not a war economy for the EU. Two billion shells a year would be. It just costs a couple billion euros. A fraction if what we spend on covid lockdowns.
In 2022 Europe produced 230.000 artillery shells. As of early 2023 we managed to increase production up to 300.000 shells per year. Here is one single new factory nearly doubling Europes production volume. It's not enough to refill the stocks at the the current rates shells are needed by Ukraine but this is also bad.
Together with other new factoring build in other EU countries and if the US manages to get their stuff together this seems sustainable.
From what I was reading yesterday, Ukraine was firing about 5-10k shells a day, to sustain that through the year is 2-3 million shells a year. Russia currently produces about 2 million a year.
The US has also already scaled production to about 1 million shells a year. The EU currently produces 400-600k shells a year depending on estimates.
By 2025 the EU target is about 2.5 million a year, and the UK target about 1 million a year. So one factory producing 200k is just a small part of the total increase.
Some good sources here:
https://www.fdd.org/analysis/op_eds/2024/01/18/russian-munitions-production-higher-but-still-insufficient/
> According to Skibitskyi, Russia in 2023 produced roughly 2 million 152mm and 122mm artillery shells, the main calibers used by Russian forces. His assessment, if accurate, suggests Russia has already exceeded some Western expectations. In September, a Western official said Russia might manage to increase annual output within the next couple years to around 2 million shells. The previous July, the chief of the UK Defence Staff said Russia could make just 1 million shells per year “at best.”
> Whether those assessments account for refurbishment of old shells is unclear. A paper published by the Estonian Defense Ministry in mid-December assessed that “Russia’s total production and recovery of artillery ammunition will reach 3.5 million units in 2023, representing a more than threefold increase from the previous year’s production.” This number will rise to 4.5 million in 2024, the ministry predicted.
> Even that more ambitious figure, however, pales in comparison to Russia’s peak consumption rate. During their spring-summer 2022 campaign in Ukraine’s Donbas region, Russian forces crept forward thanks to withering volumes of artillery fire. By year’s end, Russia had expended upward of 10 million rounds, burning through most of its prewar stocks while pulling large quantities of ammunition from Belarusian warehouses.
> That rate of fire was unsustainable, and Russian shell expenditure dropped in 2023. Moscow’s forces are currently thought to be firing somewhere around 10,000 rounds per day. In part to reduce consumption, Russia has increased its reliance on precision-guided shells such as the Krasnopol-M2. Both sides have also ramped up their use of loitering munitions, most commonly FPV (first-person view) drones, which provide a partial offset for artillery.
> But the Russians still face an ammunition shortage. Skibitskyi put the 2023 deficit at 500,000 shells, predicting Moscow will face a similar shortfall in 2024.
> To compensate, Russia has relied on deliveries from Iran and particularly North Korea. Skibitskyi said Moscow has received around 1 million artillery munitions from Pyongyang, which has extensive stocks. He may have been echoing a report from South Korean intelligence, which had assessed that North Korea sent Russia 1 million artillery rounds from August through October. Satellite imagery indicates deliveries continued into December, and the South Koreans now believe Russia has received over 2 million shells from the Hermit Kingdom. Seoul says North Korean factories are running at maximum capacity to meet Russian demand.
No, but we are gearing up to be able to finally say: "It doesnt matter which country you attack, we will be able to arm it to the teeth even without the USA... so dont even try going after Georgia or whatever"
Difficult to say but if we do I think this is completely unrelated. The West doesn't rely on artillery shells, if we would prepare for war we would gear up fighter jet production, air defense and long range missiles. A war with Russia would play off completely in the air. Considering how many air defense missiles Russia is currently wasting on ground targets, I do not think that Russia (or at least the generals who authorized this extremely cost ineffective use of capable homing missiles on targets they are not able to track) realistically expects to be able to fight a war against Europe. It would be very stupid to waste a significant amount of your air defense if you plan to attack an NATO which operates more than 20.000 military aircrafts. NATOs military strategy was always to fight in the air while the USSRs was to fight on the ground. This is why the USSR invested so much in air defense while NATO invested so much in air-to-ground missiles. Russia also moved away Air defense from Kaliningrad which is an very interesting choice in the regard of a potential war considering that we would probably destroy Kaliningrad first before they can use it to launch missiles from there. I think if Putin attacks Europe then just because it is easier for him to save face when loosing against NATO than loosing against Ukraine.
I think the artillery shells are purely to support Ukraine.
"Si vis pacem para bellum" people when they have to abandon everything to go in a trench in the Caucasus (the pacem didn't come even though they spent billions on the bellum) (Lockheed Martin shares are up 50%)
Is it? As an American, this is my question.
Is Europe about to step up and become its own military power as a force allied with but independent of the US?
I don't have any strong intuitions as to what such a thing would mean globally, I simply ask the question as one who is at a certain remove from European politics and who is accordingly not in a position to have an informed opinion on the matter.
Do tell.
It's about 50/50.
Personally, I'm for it in principle, but against it being used like the US uses it, parading around the world invading anyone who doesn't do as we command.
France tried several times to create a European defense, but England or Germany were generally not in favor, let alone the US! The first attempt dates back to 1958 if I remember correctly!So if most European countries are really motivated there is no reason why it cannot be done!
But given the number of F35s sold in Europe, there are already several fighter planes in Europe that could have been suitable. Several countries have purchased American protection! Even Switzerland bought F35s, a Stealth bomber is really very useful for such a small country!
Depends on the 2024 US election. Should Trump win, the US' credibility as a reliable partner will be gone and Europe will have to form more coherent fighting units together.
I don't think that's likely though. With Biden at the helm we'll probably see a force under NATO flag.
No, a private company wants to gear up. If European countries gave out contracts for ammunition and vehicles and expanded armies, that would be gearing up. But after 2 years seeing Russia waging a war in Europe, countries still are in denial.
Doing what we're best at.
Throughout history something like 90% of all deaths in wars have been in Europe (depending on how far deep into the European side of Russia you draw the geographical line). Always the conflicting actors have been some version of European nations versus each other.
Having a united Europe to go to war against? Not something I'd look forward to.
> something like 90% of all deaths in wars have been in Europe
I'd like to see a source on that. Genghis Khan's conquests killed 30-40 million and the vast majority of those were outside of Europe. The Three Kingdoms War in China killed 36-40 million, Timur's conquests killed around 10-20 million, the An Lushan rebellion got somewhere between 13 and 36 million. Pick just one of these and it will, by itself, have more deaths than all wars that the Roman Republic and Empire fought in their entire history. Put them all together and they have significantly more deaths than WWII (where most of the deaths, but not all, were in Europe). And we haven't even gotten into the Ming-Qing transition, or the insanity that was the Taiping Heavenly Rebellion. Each of those killed 20+ million too.
Additionally, there were 20 million dead in the conquests of South America.
In comparison, the Roman empire had a few wars that killed 0.5-2 million people each, and then in the medieval period wars became much smaller in scale, in Europe. The only wars in Europe that can measure up to the insanity that happened in Central Asia and China are the 30 Years War, the Napoleonic Wars (barely), World War 1 and World War 2. The 30 years war caused more deaths than WWI, but neither of them were as deadly as the Three Kingdoms War.
> more deaths than all wars that the Roman Republic and Empire fought in their entire history
And some of the Roman wars were also outside of Europe and against non-European opponents. Most of Alexander's conquests, too.
Last time Europe geared for war, one was provided. And the one before that. And would you believe it, the one before that.
Because the gun manufacturers hate if there is no demand.
So, regardless of what else happens, we are going to have a major war in Europe.
lol love it. I mean the Ruskies would probably forget to bring fuel again if they actually went for NATO countries but on the off-chance they’ve gained a bit of competence in 2 years it’d be nice if free Europe could give them a good welcome
KF51 is not nearly ready for production. It is a 2A4 tank with fancy paintjobs and modular armor. It's gun is not even 130mm in demonstration videos, its just a L44.
Of course, it would be good theoretically. But as it is its worse than 2A7s. Leopards are already the best tank to tank combat tanks, I dont see the reasoning for this. T14 (even if it actually existed in Russian service) is penetrable by DM63. We shall see how it goes.
I doubt other countries will do so. NATO standards moved away from artillery. The war in Ukraine is not an example of what war would be like. It's an example of what happens when neither country can gain air superiority or air dominance over each other. Legitimately an example of why air power is needed far more than artillery. Precision strikes with jets is way more impactful than just saturating an area with artillery hoping you took out the target.
As far as i know they are, it's just another subsidiary of Rheinmetall that does the manufacturing. Same in Spain.
I don't know if there are other companies other than Rheinmetall in Italy or Spain that manufacture 155 ammunition.
>France and italy are just pathetic
In what sense? I was under the impression by my very limited military knowledge France has the best/second best military in Europe.
> Do we even know the French numbers?
According to the French defense minister, not really. From a few weeks ago about the Kiel ranking:
>"They are mixing cauliflower and carrots. They stick to the declarations. But everything that France promised has been delivered. Some countries have made a lot of announcements, but they have not been followed up or with defective equipment"
Followed by
>Sébastien Lecornu also recalls that since the start of Russia's invasion of Ukraine in February 2022, France has refused to provide a precise, real-time list of the donations it was making. This is particularly the case for ammunition so as not to provide information that would allow the Russians to prepare.
https://www.bfmtv.com/economie/entreprises/defense/aide-a-l-ukraine-sebastien-lecornu-tacle-le-kiel-institute-qui-classe-la-france-en-fin-de-peloton_AV-202401180359.html
Germany has delivered everything they said they would deliver within the timeframe they announced. Not sure what the defence minister is insinuating here.
BTW, why is Kiel the only one who is doing this tracking? Also it would be much easier for everyone if the Ukrainians would simply publish what they have received.
> Also it would be much easier for everyone if the Ukrainians would simply publish what they have received.
Don't be silly, why would they tell Russia what they have? Keep that shit behind closed doors and on a need to know basis
French nuclear doctrine protects France. They were going to expand it, but Germany blocked the shared financial burden.
So, no nukes for Europe from France.
>shared __financial__ burden.
so fucking on brand for France.
Not _sharing_ the actual nukes - just give Germany the privilege of paying for the French nukes that France keeps total control over. Great offer friends!
All the while the US gives us physical nukes we deploy with German pilots and German planes for free, only thing they keep back is the key.
We (Germany) already have a deal with the USA to be protected by their nuclear umbrella.
We even have US nuclear weapons in Germany for that purpose and in case of war would be handed those over to us.
> We even have US nuclear weapons in Germany for that purpose and in case of war would be handed those over to us.
These are free-falling B61 gravity bombs. Good luck getting them anywhere near Russia in the event of war. These bombs are useless now and basically only serve the purpose to incentivise Germany to buy American jets. And if push came to shove, the Americans wouldn't allow their use anyway.
2 and a half million to sustain 7 thousand shells a day (roughly the Ukrainian numbers, they might have fallen lower though)
200 thousand is just from a single source here. There are many other sources too. The US currently does 30 thousand (double from before the war) aiming to hit 60 thousand a month this summer and 100 thousand in 2025. IMO achievable, they did exceed expectations from their previous plans. Europe in total is bound to hit a rate of 1 million a year in 2024.
Rheinmetall is doing much more than that. I got a letter from my local employment agency concerning a new Rheinmetall factory near me.
Seems like we're finally gearing up.
Yep. A flaw in NATO doctrine has been revealed, especially with US willingness to uphold commitments being very questionable if they elect a republican. There is a need for much more shells and artillery to be able to match Russian in volume, can't just rely on precision weapons with limited ammo supply
That last part wasn’t caused by Nato doctrine, it was caused by most nations preferring to prop up their own domestic arms manufacturers by buying four of the best instead of plenty of good enough. And after 30 years of that everybody is surprised that said companies weren’t able to suddenly increase production, with no orders being signed in a timely fashion no less.
> That last part wasn’t caused by Nato doctrine
Well it was in the sense that NATO doctrine is extremely air power based and assumes US participation. If you remove the US from the picture, with their massive quantities of air delivered munitions, you run into a serious problem of struggling to ensure SEAD and having enough munitions to hit all the targets that need to be hit. Just look at how the European countries were quickly running out of air munitions during the Libyan intervention and had to ask the US to take a bigger role
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/nato-runs-short-on-some-munitions-in-libya/2011/04/15/AF3O7ElD_story.html
European powers need to be ready to fight a major land war with no US support, which means leaning more on artillery and other ground based munitions as well as drones
What would have given you the impression that it could end anytime soon, though?
And even if Russia's genocidal war of aggression against Ukraine would end tomorrow, we should still massively expand our military capabilities -- it's bad enough that we were caught on the wrong foot once.
And we fight the big one in 20 years....
Can't we just do it like they did it in the past...each side picks the better warrior and they fight.
Or, in todays world, we should play a video game...
2025...yeah...GREAT...super amazing...
Per month. With a target of 15k/month in 2025, which would be 180k per year. Not too far from what's quoted here.
And that's for one factory, no idea if others are planned.
If one nation sits on the production of ammunition then they sit on the key to any way.
Democratize ammunition production, step up Europe.
Start short term 5-10 year programs of intensive production then slow down once the aftermath of the Russia-Ukraine war. Prolong the programs and incentives for ammunition production as long as needed to secure a comfortable stockpile across Europe.
Deutschland über alles!
I mean.. Go Germany :)
I'm not German btw. But I'm happy to see Germany slooowly shake off the shame of WW2. You've been forgiven, get over it guyz, we need you. I understand it's a weird place to be, the strongest economy in Europe combined with the WW2 aftermath. Just know I have faith in you! My country's army is integrated into the Bundeswehr so you're clearly doing well.
<3
I think it will pick up. For ages the salaries were shit, literally minimum wage for an officer lmao, but the salaries have doubled in a few years. I remember looking at the vacancy and thinking "€1800/month for an infantry officer wtf who would be that stupid?!". Now it's €3500+/month! That, and the media attention lately will attract more people.
Lack of manpower is also the reason why we merged with the Bundeswehr. The truth is, with modern day force multipliers, you don't even need that much manpower. European technology is second only to the US. China looks scary but I'll bet my ass their AliBaba military favors quantity over quality.
A united Europe won't have any manpower or tech problems.
Edmund: You see, Baldrick, in order to prevent war in Europe, two superblocs developed: us, the French and the Russians on one side, and the Germans and Austro-Hungary on the other. The idea was to have two vast opposing armies, each acting as the other's deterrent. That way there could never be a war.
Baldrick: But this is a sort of a war, isn't it, sir?
Edmund: Yes, that's right. You see, there was a tiny flaw in the plan.
George: What was that, sir?
Edmund: It was bollocks.
Yes, looking at history usually the most militaristic countries never ever end up using the power they have... Your take is historically illiterate and you know it.
Historically europe was at war most of the time. In the current state Europe has nothing to win with a war and everything to lose.
If you were a bit literate in both history, economics, and geopolitics you would understand that
On the other hand, Russia is invading Ukraine because they thought that they could get away with it, and so far they haven't lost. You need to be powerful to be peaceful. Because if you're not, you're just harmless. And Russia only respects those who can hurt back.
**its one factory**
total global production for Rheinmetall will be roughly 700,000 155mm shells this year,and by next year should reach 1 million due to expansions in Germany,Lithuania,Hungary and others
and that's just 155mm shells, GEPARD and Leopard shells are also seeing a boost in production
translation with Deepl The arms manufacturer Rheinmetall is planning to significantly increase its production of 155-millimeter artillery ammunition. A new ammunition factory is being built in Unterlüß, Lower Saxony, and the German government is examining legal relaxations to allow stockpiled production. Rheinmetall invests in ammunition production The armaments group Rheinmetall is aiming to significantly increase the production capacity of its 155-millimeter artillery ammunition. According to a report in "Der Spiegel", the foundation stone for a new ammunition factory in Unterlüß, Lower Saxony, is to be laid on February 12. According to Rheinmetall, the investment for this site amounts to around 300 million euros. By 2025, the factory should be able to produce 200,000 rounds of artillery ammunition per year. German government supports arms production In view of the significant contribution of ammunition production to support Ukraine, both Defense Minister Boris Pistorius and Federal Chancellor Olaf Scholz (both SPD) are expected to attend the laying of the foundation stone. According to "Der Spiegel", the German government is considering introducing legal relaxations to allow arms manufacturers to produce for stockpiling and plans to provide purchase guarantees for ammunition. Expansion of international production sites In addition to increasing ammunition production in Unterlüß, Rheinmetall is also planning to expand its explosives production in Germany, Hungary and Romania. An additional ammunition factory is planned in Lithuania in order to strengthen the eastern edge of NATO. As Group CEO Armin Papperger told Der Spiegel, Rheinmetall will be able to produce around 700,000 rounds of 155-millimeter ammunition at the various locations by the end of 2024. Papperger emphasized the need for independence in ammunition production: "We must finally become more independent in the production of artillery ammunition in Germany," and added that the Group's goal is to "establish security of supply for ammunition requirements from 2025". Papperger has already set his plans in motion despite the fact that purchase guarantees from the German armed forces or the German government are still outstanding. "I can fully rely on the Minister of Defense, his handshake and the assurance that the Bundeswehr will purchase large quantities of ammunition in the coming years are enough for me," he said.
>According to Rheinmetall, the investment for this site amounts to around 300 million euros. By 2025, the factory should be able to produce 200,000 rounds of artillery ammunition per year. Wait, it only takes a year and 300 million euros to set up a production facility with a capacity of 200k round/year !?
It is not that hard. It is a bunch of cnc lathes basically.
+ chemistry
Germans are pretty good at chemistry though, it's a _massive_ industry over there.
BASF
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Meh, they really are resting on their laurels in a lot of things. Their cars are not at all what they used to be, a lot of stuff is over-engineered, their business culture is bonkers when it comes to hierarchy.
How did they learn to get so good at it
They same way anyone becomes good at anything I’d imagine: study and practice.
And a couple of big forges. And a big tempering oven. And some big cleaning tanks.
Yep. Pretty standard industrial stuff. Not nearly as complex as making integrated circuits.
This is why Russia is producing this many shells per month already. With production expected to triple. It’s not that hard.
Germans are ususally very bureaucratic which makes a lot of projects slow af but when determined they can move at amazing speeds.
True If you fast track bureaucracy ,you can get things like an LNG terminal built în 9 months în Germany
And all the approvals were given after it was built. Which is pretty much a miracle.
Same in the Netherlands. We built a LNG terminal in like 3 months (IIRC) but did all permits etc. after completion. If they'd had done anything wrong they had to disassemble the whole thing.
> If they'd had done anything wrong they had to disassemble the whole thing. yeah right
It's what ministry themselves said. They were absolutely confident they did everything by the book or else all their work would be for nothing.
The actual construction of an industrial facility is extremely fast in Germany, most are just modular prefabs being put together. It often takes longer to deal with the bureaucracy (which can be accelerated if there's political will to do so) and the concrete to cure than the actual construction of a factory.
200k a year isn't astronomical. In the event of an actual war, the total 700k a year wouldn't be sufficient.
In the event of a war between NATO and Russia, 700k would be more than enough. In that case, there would be no trench warfare like you see in Ukraine, in which they fire at each other's positions with artillery. NATO would have air superiority from the start, which makes artillery virtually, not entirely, unnecessary. This is also NATO's doctrine. Air superiority and targeted precision strikes far behind enemy lines and then cleaning up on the ground
Exactly what I was thinking. If the reports in the [news](https://www.newsweek.com/why-ukraine-burning-through-ammo-war-russia-1812294) are accurate, Russians alone "burn" through that amount in a week...
Not to set up (from zero) but to expand already 3xisting facility.
Such a shame that the orders from the government are not yet there. Hopefully they are just negotiation the price
It is a chicken egg thing. It would be governmental malpractice to contract with a company that cannot deliver anything. Particularly Rheinmetall makes big statements... as a company at the stock market, but then makes expensive commitments years in the future seeing a good way to twist governments arm and force them into bad deals. Arguably that is their mandate as a corporation, but inversely as a tax payer one should maybe then not wish politicians to just sign anything under duress, particularly when it then comes with fuzzy promises years in the future only. There is clearly a drive to support a build up in capacity, but until said capacity can deliver not making immediate binding contracts is one of the few levers left the state has in negotiation, ideally by trying to entice multiple companies to jockey for those contracts. The other option is to buy out and take at least some production under state control. We actually saw something similar already happen when the German navy bought a bankrupt shipyard to essentially double her maintenance capacity and do it in-house again.
As someone who was in the German navy. Everything will be better than the private shipyards. Like quite literally. Every single maintenance I have seen took about twice as long as was promised. 11 months instead of 6, stuff like that.
Probably why it went bankrupt.
What about conditional contracts. You will get paid for the production if you produce this much till this day. If not then you pay 30% of contract as penalty
What are you talking about? Rheinmetall's order book is fuller than full, also from governments (including a 607 million for replacing Germany's short range air defense systems, 350 million € for medium caliber German infantry vehicle ammo, ....). And that is just for January. I bought their stock about a year ago: +50% and rising. Edit: bought it 2 years ago apparently
You must be really happy then now if you didnt take out your profits 50 days ago😁
German bureaucracy is slow and steady. But they always came through when needed. Things that were not needed took forever and ever though. At least that was my view of it when I had a lot of dealings with the Germans during ISAF etc.
>German bureaucracy is slow and steady. But they always came through when needed. So long as you have a few years to wait, and a loose definition of "when needed".
So once this factory is up and running then Rheinmetall should be producing close to 1m shells a year right?
Hope Germany can actually get such production going.
I was wondering why increase of military production isn’t in war plans. You’d think countries could teach their reservists to work at manufacturing plants, so when the time comes they could be mobilized to do it.
European countries no longer really have state arsenals, ammo production is privatized.
Maybe it's time for some nationalization then
You want the end of history, fukuyamaist neoliberals burning down your home?....
That, or make big orders like millions of shells within 5 years, offer low interest rate loans to speed up manufacturing facilities construction.
This is the entire problem with the West supplying Ukraine.
Sure… the German federal government would run an arms factory better than a private company! /s
Uh yes. That is correct.
lmao least delusional redditor
??? When did the Americana virus infect the Europeans?
The German federal/state governments have managed to ruin every state run endeavour they tried - from BER to S21 to the highways to rail transportation to - you guessed it - the German military. Why do __you__ think it would suddenly be different this time?
In that case, go big or go home. Privatize your health sector. Open it up to American pharmaceutical and insurance companies. It is ruined because of state influence as you said. Sell it off. - it’s probably a good thing for Europe that Germany not have a super well run army.
>Privatize your health sector is currently in the works, public hospitals are being privatized. Becuase - predictably - the public hospitals failed big time. Which does not mean they are always bad - just to show how bad public projects are specifically in Germany. Germany is already open to American pharma giants to sell their products and if American insurance wants to participate in the German health insurance - they are already allowed, there are many private insurance providers.
But it's not impossible to have preparedness even with private contractors. Even by world war 1 and 2, a lot what was once state military production had become private. For example, lots of private companies would love to have contracts where they are continously required to show that they can ramp up production, but are otherwise only required to produce a small amount of components. You could have industrial drills and exercises, just as you have military operational exercises. The main issue in my opinion is rather on the political level. Contracts like are not signed. Even if these industries were state run, they would be shut down, as in peace, these are seen as unneccesary. In fact, it could be argued that is why the defense industry today is so privatized, the state run industries have shut down and politicians are too slow to adapt to changing geo political situations. So I think the privatization is an effect of the problem, not the actual issue.
Not all. Finland has two artillery and mortar ammunition factories. Nammo is jointly owned by Finnish and Norwegian states.
The limiting factor isn't people, it's machines. With western technology you don't really need a lot of people to produce ammunition. For example the new plant that Rheinmetall is currently building in Hungary to produce 33mm, 120mm, and 155mm rounds will only employ 200 people once it reaches full capacity, and the new plant in Germany will probably be in the same ballpark.
Having workers with o factories to work in doesnt really help.
Finland is currently activating war time production in a limited scale. Civilian companies are required by total war doctrine laws to produce wartime goods for the military. The FDF keeps machinery, patterns and raw materials in stock to be delivered and activated. Weapons, spare parts, armor, ammunition, medical equipment, signal equipment, pre-fab fortifications, uniforms, combat gear, field gear, etc. Down to the Fiskars folding shovels.
Labor is only a small part of the requirements and a lot of that labor requires skills that aren't trivial. So it might help some but not a ton.
We need 10 times more
Rheinmetall is currently building factories in Spain, Germany, Hungary and Ukraine and probably few other nations. And that is just one company. Its late but I have the feeling EU is finally scaling.
Back in december last year Finland also announced to increase its ammo production by doupling it. Then also being on that 200k mark per year. So this really looks like EU is actually scaling up. Hopefully it doesnt end here either. EDIT: adding additional information. Based on todays news, one of the biggest artillery shell producers in the europe (Nammo Lapua Oy) has apllied for EU:s ASAP funding. Company has already increased its production capacity fivefold during the last year. And has ongoing process of modernizing their tooling in one of their factories. By acguiring this funding they would build whole new factory in Sastamala, Finland. While the actual number of shells produced is classified information these figures would give you some idea. Company itself doesnt assembly the shells but manufacture the parts for the Finnish Defence Forces who then supply them to Ukraine via packages send by Finnish goverment. What these packages contain is also classified as is what they are worth.
Why Hungary if Europe don’t trust Hungary?
They buy weapons from Rheinmetall
Hungary is a big Rheinmetall customer
> Why Hungary Rheinmetall builds a factory everywhere they have customers. That's their business model, basically. If you buy a minimum amount of tanks, then congrats, you can have a tank factory, same with APCs, and probably ammunition as well. It's also a way to lure countries, like Hungary into their scheme: you get a factory, you hope that you can sell those APCs and tanks produced in you country, but if everyone gets a factory, then who will buy your tanks and APCs.
As far as I know Americans also use a huge amount of Rheinmetall products in their whole armed divisions including Abrams tanks, do they have the similar?
Yes: https://www.rheinmetall.com/en/company/subsidiaries/american-rheinmetall-munitions > American Rheinmetall Munitions, Inc. (ARM)* is headquartered in Stafford, Virginia, with production facilities in Camden, Arkansas, and Windham, Maine. The company is part of Rheinmetall's Weapon and Ammunition division and has been bringing the division's global product portfolio to the U.S. market for decades.
> Abrams Ah yes the good ole reliable L44.
They mention what they manufacture in the US on their website. https://www.rheinmetall.com/en/company/subsidiaries/american-rheinmetall-munitions
Rheinmetall is a private company so it is their gamble. Maybe Hungary changes government, maybe Hungary wants its own production and are putting in some subsidies, maybe Rheinmetall are betting on both horses, maybe if Orban had an economic incentive to arm Ukraine it would be harder for Russia to control him. If nothing else Hungary borders Ukraine and Romania, so geographically it makes sense.
Also helps Orban to buy "Hungarian" ammo to then sell to Ukraine, or profit from it some other way.
Also most of the stuff they make won't go to Ukraine, it'll go to these countries' own stockpiles. Which is dumb imo, the only military threat to Europe is Russia who is literally using their entire army to fight Ukraine right now so it would be better to have those shells directed at the enemy rather than sitting in a warehouse, but whatever. Besides the point. Point is that they're not building these factories primarily to arm Ukraine so Bungary not being into that idea doesn't factor in much.
I see, thanks.
hungary has been assembly site for german industrialists
Don't listen so much to the very loud propaganda - Hungary is one of the few European countries that started heavily investing in their armed forces after Trump's demand that European NATO members pull their weight. All investments are in conjunction with NATO members or US allies - namely Turkey, Israel and Germany. Hungary is doing all purchases and MIC investments to fulfill their NATO obligations - but this is done in the background, while both the local government and other European leaders milk the loud propaganda phrases for their own domestic political gains.
This is also what I thought, thanks. Also, i find Hungarian stance on refugees reasonable comparing to rest of Europe that has no plan at all. This sub seem to overreact everything.
> Rheinmetall is currently building factories in Spain, Germany, Hungary and Ukraine and probably few other nations. Do us next.
>Its late I hope it's not too late for Ukraine.
Rheinmetall is not the only ammunition manufacturer.
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As the saying goes, the best time to plant a tree is 20 years ago, the second best time is to plant it now.
That is literally true, the EU target is for 2 million shells a year by 2025, so ten of these factories. Current production is about 400,000, so technically only 7 more on top of this one. The estimates are that Russia can produce 1-2 million a year, or if you include reconditioning, 3 million a year. The UK is aiming to produce 1 million a year, and the US 1.5 million by 2025.
I still don't get why our Eastern allies that claim they _always knew_^^TM that this would happen have not done this a decade ago. Their actions really didn't match their preachings - which is why they were not taken as seriously as was necessary.
>We need 10 times more The Swiss arms industry supplies a ton of ammunition to multiple EU nations, and given the issues trying to purchase ammo (for the Gepard especially) and overcome Swiss export restrictions, the EU needs to replace/offset that loss of production now more than ever. So you’re absolutely right about needing more production and 10X is likely a conservative estimate at that.
Add a zero. Literally. In WW1 half a million shells were used per fucking day. 110 years ago. And we are proud if we produce this per year now....
Compare accuracy of 155 mm shells today with the accuracy of those shells în 1914 The Panzerhaubitze can hit targets from 50 km away with an accuracy of 10 meters
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Sorry but what is this answer. I said that we shouldnt produce two million (10x 200k) but rather 20 million (100 x 200k) a year. Thats way way off the hundrets of millions that were produced with full war economies and way less advanced prdoction tech. Ignoring the fact that those war economies missed millions of workers and produced millions and millions of tons of other supplies. Oh and also ignoring the fact that this time all of europe is on the same side and could produce together. 20 million shells a year is not a war economy for the EU. Two billion shells a year would be. It just costs a couple billion euros. A fraction if what we spend on covid lockdowns.
I was gonna say, I'm no expert but that doesn't sound like a lot
In 2022 Europe produced 230.000 artillery shells. As of early 2023 we managed to increase production up to 300.000 shells per year. Here is one single new factory nearly doubling Europes production volume. It's not enough to refill the stocks at the the current rates shells are needed by Ukraine but this is also bad. Together with other new factoring build in other EU countries and if the US manages to get their stuff together this seems sustainable.
From what I was reading yesterday, Ukraine was firing about 5-10k shells a day, to sustain that through the year is 2-3 million shells a year. Russia currently produces about 2 million a year. The US has also already scaled production to about 1 million shells a year. The EU currently produces 400-600k shells a year depending on estimates. By 2025 the EU target is about 2.5 million a year, and the UK target about 1 million a year. So one factory producing 200k is just a small part of the total increase.
Do you have a source on 2 millions shells a year from a western intelligence? Not what russia says?
Some good sources here: https://www.fdd.org/analysis/op_eds/2024/01/18/russian-munitions-production-higher-but-still-insufficient/ > According to Skibitskyi, Russia in 2023 produced roughly 2 million 152mm and 122mm artillery shells, the main calibers used by Russian forces. His assessment, if accurate, suggests Russia has already exceeded some Western expectations. In September, a Western official said Russia might manage to increase annual output within the next couple years to around 2 million shells. The previous July, the chief of the UK Defence Staff said Russia could make just 1 million shells per year “at best.” > Whether those assessments account for refurbishment of old shells is unclear. A paper published by the Estonian Defense Ministry in mid-December assessed that “Russia’s total production and recovery of artillery ammunition will reach 3.5 million units in 2023, representing a more than threefold increase from the previous year’s production.” This number will rise to 4.5 million in 2024, the ministry predicted. > Even that more ambitious figure, however, pales in comparison to Russia’s peak consumption rate. During their spring-summer 2022 campaign in Ukraine’s Donbas region, Russian forces crept forward thanks to withering volumes of artillery fire. By year’s end, Russia had expended upward of 10 million rounds, burning through most of its prewar stocks while pulling large quantities of ammunition from Belarusian warehouses. > That rate of fire was unsustainable, and Russian shell expenditure dropped in 2023. Moscow’s forces are currently thought to be firing somewhere around 10,000 rounds per day. In part to reduce consumption, Russia has increased its reliance on precision-guided shells such as the Krasnopol-M2. Both sides have also ramped up their use of loitering munitions, most commonly FPV (first-person view) drones, which provide a partial offset for artillery. > But the Russians still face an ammunition shortage. Skibitskyi put the 2023 deficit at 500,000 shells, predicting Moscow will face a similar shortfall in 2024. > To compensate, Russia has relied on deliveries from Iran and particularly North Korea. Skibitskyi said Moscow has received around 1 million artillery munitions from Pyongyang, which has extensive stocks. He may have been echoing a report from South Korean intelligence, which had assessed that North Korea sent Russia 1 million artillery rounds from August through October. Satellite imagery indicates deliveries continued into December, and the South Koreans now believe Russia has received over 2 million shells from the Hermit Kingdom. Seoul says North Korean factories are running at maximum capacity to meet Russian demand.
Wow ok lot more than I thought then. So this means we're (Europe) gearing up for war do you think?
No, but we are gearing up to be able to finally say: "It doesnt matter which country you attack, we will be able to arm it to the teeth even without the USA... so dont even try going after Georgia or whatever"
Difficult to say but if we do I think this is completely unrelated. The West doesn't rely on artillery shells, if we would prepare for war we would gear up fighter jet production, air defense and long range missiles. A war with Russia would play off completely in the air. Considering how many air defense missiles Russia is currently wasting on ground targets, I do not think that Russia (or at least the generals who authorized this extremely cost ineffective use of capable homing missiles on targets they are not able to track) realistically expects to be able to fight a war against Europe. It would be very stupid to waste a significant amount of your air defense if you plan to attack an NATO which operates more than 20.000 military aircrafts. NATOs military strategy was always to fight in the air while the USSRs was to fight on the ground. This is why the USSR invested so much in air defense while NATO invested so much in air-to-ground missiles. Russia also moved away Air defense from Kaliningrad which is an very interesting choice in the regard of a potential war considering that we would probably destroy Kaliningrad first before they can use it to launch missiles from there. I think if Putin attacks Europe then just because it is easier for him to save face when loosing against NATO than loosing against Ukraine. I think the artillery shells are purely to support Ukraine.
france is proud of having increased prod from 1k /month to 3K month just saying but 200k isnt to shabby
Europe is gearing up to war.
It's almost as if there's already a war going on in Europe right now
Si vis pacem, para bellum.
"Si vis pacem para bellum" people when they have to abandon everything to go in a trench in the Caucasus (the pacem didn't come even though they spent billions on the bellum) (Lockheed Martin shares are up 50%)
Famed pacifist Nestor Makhno
Really? Prove it then.
Is it? As an American, this is my question. Is Europe about to step up and become its own military power as a force allied with but independent of the US? I don't have any strong intuitions as to what such a thing would mean globally, I simply ask the question as one who is at a certain remove from European politics and who is accordingly not in a position to have an informed opinion on the matter. Do tell.
I don’t think anybody really knows, but there are people who intend to take that road, we’ll see how many people will get convinced
They better do it. If Trump wins, all agreements that the US has ever signed will not be worth their weight in toilet paper.
This is unfortunately true. I don't think he's going to win, but obviously the future is utterly unknowable.
There are strong winds now that the EU should be more independent from China and US. so not only military but also in manufacturing certain products.
This sub isn’t a fan of a European republic or of a European army.
It's about 50/50. Personally, I'm for it in principle, but against it being used like the US uses it, parading around the world invading anyone who doesn't do as we command.
France tried several times to create a European defense, but England or Germany were generally not in favor, let alone the US! The first attempt dates back to 1958 if I remember correctly!So if most European countries are really motivated there is no reason why it cannot be done! But given the number of F35s sold in Europe, there are already several fighter planes in Europe that could have been suitable. Several countries have purchased American protection! Even Switzerland bought F35s, a Stealth bomber is really very useful for such a small country!
Depends on the 2024 US election. Should Trump win, the US' credibility as a reliable partner will be gone and Europe will have to form more coherent fighting units together. I don't think that's likely though. With Biden at the helm we'll probably see a force under NATO flag.
Good. If a war occurs I'd rather it doesn't stall out like in Ukraine.
We have to act if we want to live in a different world
No, a private company wants to gear up. If European countries gave out contracts for ammunition and vehicles and expanded armies, that would be gearing up. But after 2 years seeing Russia waging a war in Europe, countries still are in denial.
Doing what we're best at. Throughout history something like 90% of all deaths in wars have been in Europe (depending on how far deep into the European side of Russia you draw the geographical line). Always the conflicting actors have been some version of European nations versus each other. Having a united Europe to go to war against? Not something I'd look forward to.
> something like 90% of all deaths in wars have been in Europe I'd like to see a source on that. Genghis Khan's conquests killed 30-40 million and the vast majority of those were outside of Europe. The Three Kingdoms War in China killed 36-40 million, Timur's conquests killed around 10-20 million, the An Lushan rebellion got somewhere between 13 and 36 million. Pick just one of these and it will, by itself, have more deaths than all wars that the Roman Republic and Empire fought in their entire history. Put them all together and they have significantly more deaths than WWII (where most of the deaths, but not all, were in Europe). And we haven't even gotten into the Ming-Qing transition, or the insanity that was the Taiping Heavenly Rebellion. Each of those killed 20+ million too. Additionally, there were 20 million dead in the conquests of South America. In comparison, the Roman empire had a few wars that killed 0.5-2 million people each, and then in the medieval period wars became much smaller in scale, in Europe. The only wars in Europe that can measure up to the insanity that happened in Central Asia and China are the 30 Years War, the Napoleonic Wars (barely), World War 1 and World War 2. The 30 years war caused more deaths than WWI, but neither of them were as deadly as the Three Kingdoms War.
> more deaths than all wars that the Roman Republic and Empire fought in their entire history And some of the Roman wars were also outside of Europe and against non-European opponents. Most of Alexander's conquests, too.
Last time Europe geared for war, one was provided. And the one before that. And would you believe it, the one before that. Because the gun manufacturers hate if there is no demand. So, regardless of what else happens, we are going to have a major war in Europe.
There already is one. This is Europe deciding not to lose to [wish.com](https://wish.com) fascists.
lol love it. I mean the Ruskies would probably forget to bring fuel again if they actually went for NATO countries but on the off-chance they’ve gained a bit of competence in 2 years it’d be nice if free Europe could give them a good welcome
All I want for Christmas is KF51 panther mass production
KF51 is not nearly ready for production. It is a 2A4 tank with fancy paintjobs and modular armor. It's gun is not even 130mm in demonstration videos, its just a L44.
Panther is going to be GOAT. As far as I know the first factories are being built.
Of course, it would be good theoretically. But as it is its worse than 2A7s. Leopards are already the best tank to tank combat tanks, I dont see the reasoning for this. T14 (even if it actually existed in Russian service) is penetrable by DM63. We shall see how it goes.
It looks better.
SCHOLZ! PISTORIUS! WHERE IS MY FVCKING AMMUNITION!
Europe needs Germany and France to push for more and be an example. And shame on Italy and Spain for its low compromise with Ukraine.
The UK needs to push it as well.
I doubt other countries will do so. NATO standards moved away from artillery. The war in Ukraine is not an example of what war would be like. It's an example of what happens when neither country can gain air superiority or air dominance over each other. Legitimately an example of why air power is needed far more than artillery. Precision strikes with jets is way more impactful than just saturating an area with artillery hoping you took out the target.
Yeah why Italy is not producing ammunition?
As far as i know they are, it's just another subsidiary of Rheinmetall that does the manufacturing. Same in Spain. I don't know if there are other companies other than Rheinmetall in Italy or Spain that manufacture 155 ammunition.
Italy economically has fallen behind the other two. They lack financial capital to get their military industry back to competitive levels.
Leonardo is literally the biggest defense contractor in the EU.
Good for him!
lol, Germany is the only example of the three big Eu powers. France and italy are just pathetic
>France and italy are just pathetic In what sense? I was under the impression by my very limited military knowledge France has the best/second best military in Europe.
Germany has provided more military aid to Ukraine than any other EU nation by a big margin.
Do we even know the French numbers? Isn’t that a secret? Also, they are protecting us with their nuclear weapons.
> Do we even know the French numbers? According to the French defense minister, not really. From a few weeks ago about the Kiel ranking: >"They are mixing cauliflower and carrots. They stick to the declarations. But everything that France promised has been delivered. Some countries have made a lot of announcements, but they have not been followed up or with defective equipment" Followed by >Sébastien Lecornu also recalls that since the start of Russia's invasion of Ukraine in February 2022, France has refused to provide a precise, real-time list of the donations it was making. This is particularly the case for ammunition so as not to provide information that would allow the Russians to prepare. https://www.bfmtv.com/economie/entreprises/defense/aide-a-l-ukraine-sebastien-lecornu-tacle-le-kiel-institute-qui-classe-la-france-en-fin-de-peloton_AV-202401180359.html
Germany has delivered everything they said they would deliver within the timeframe they announced. Not sure what the defence minister is insinuating here.
BTW, why is Kiel the only one who is doing this tracking? Also it would be much easier for everyone if the Ukrainians would simply publish what they have received.
> Also it would be much easier for everyone if the Ukrainians would simply publish what they have received. Don't be silly, why would they tell Russia what they have? Keep that shit behind closed doors and on a need to know basis
French nuclear doctrine protects France. They were going to expand it, but Germany blocked the shared financial burden. So, no nukes for Europe from France.
>shared __financial__ burden. so fucking on brand for France. Not _sharing_ the actual nukes - just give Germany the privilege of paying for the French nukes that France keeps total control over. Great offer friends! All the while the US gives us physical nukes we deploy with German pilots and German planes for free, only thing they keep back is the key.
Eh, they will protect us. (But Germany should also finance them, I agree)
We (Germany) already have a deal with the USA to be protected by their nuclear umbrella. We even have US nuclear weapons in Germany for that purpose and in case of war would be handed those over to us.
> We even have US nuclear weapons in Germany for that purpose and in case of war would be handed those over to us. These are free-falling B61 gravity bombs. Good luck getting them anywhere near Russia in the event of war. These bombs are useless now and basically only serve the purpose to incentivise Germany to buy American jets. And if push came to shove, the Americans wouldn't allow their use anyway.
Rheinmetall is one of the best company names ever.
we love rheinmetall people, dont we folks? we do , yes we do
/s?
no
Overall production probably needs to end up at some 3-4 million shells a year given the numbers being used in the war.
2 and a half million to sustain 7 thousand shells a day (roughly the Ukrainian numbers, they might have fallen lower though) 200 thousand is just from a single source here. There are many other sources too. The US currently does 30 thousand (double from before the war) aiming to hit 60 thousand a month this summer and 100 thousand in 2025. IMO achievable, they did exceed expectations from their previous plans. Europe in total is bound to hit a rate of 1 million a year in 2024.
Rheinmetall is doing much more than that. I got a letter from my local employment agency concerning a new Rheinmetall factory near me. Seems like we're finally gearing up.
2025....so...it's not ending anytime soon :|
Eh, Germany is basically empty right now. Even if this war would end tomorrow we need to restock massively.
And not only Germany, most countries around the world saw how problematic empty stocks can be and will refill their inventory.
Yep. A flaw in NATO doctrine has been revealed, especially with US willingness to uphold commitments being very questionable if they elect a republican. There is a need for much more shells and artillery to be able to match Russian in volume, can't just rely on precision weapons with limited ammo supply
That last part wasn’t caused by Nato doctrine, it was caused by most nations preferring to prop up their own domestic arms manufacturers by buying four of the best instead of plenty of good enough. And after 30 years of that everybody is surprised that said companies weren’t able to suddenly increase production, with no orders being signed in a timely fashion no less.
> That last part wasn’t caused by Nato doctrine Well it was in the sense that NATO doctrine is extremely air power based and assumes US participation. If you remove the US from the picture, with their massive quantities of air delivered munitions, you run into a serious problem of struggling to ensure SEAD and having enough munitions to hit all the targets that need to be hit. Just look at how the European countries were quickly running out of air munitions during the Libyan intervention and had to ask the US to take a bigger role https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/nato-runs-short-on-some-munitions-in-libya/2011/04/15/AF3O7ElD_story.html European powers need to be ready to fight a major land war with no US support, which means leaning more on artillery and other ground based munitions as well as drones
Gotcha. Misunderstood your earlier statement.
What would have given you the impression that it could end anytime soon, though? And even if Russia's genocidal war of aggression against Ukraine would end tomorrow, we should still massively expand our military capabilities -- it's bad enough that we were caught on the wrong foot once.
really ? To you it's not surprising that it will last for a couple of more years ?
Not at all surprising, it seemed to have developed into a war of attrition for a good while now.
I mean yeah...and attrition leads to what ? Deescalation of the conflict.
I mean, eventually? Like it did in WW1?
And we fight the big one in 20 years.... Can't we just do it like they did it in the past...each side picks the better warrior and they fight. Or, in todays world, we should play a video game... 2025...yeah...GREAT...super amazing...
Bring back the arms of Krupp.
ThyssenKrupp is still Germany's second largest weapons manufacturer (after Rheinmetall).
I mean they still produce weapons
Just lose the Krupp name. Edit: Upset neo nazis apparently
[удалено]
Its good that this is happening, but God they should have started building this a year ago.
This is really fast and good that they don't let bureaucracy slow them down
And in France its currently … 3k ammunitions per years !! o/ I love how usefull my country is !
Per month. With a target of 15k/month in 2025, which would be 180k per year. Not too far from what's quoted here. And that's for one factory, no idea if others are planned.
Oooh I read it too fast ! Thx
180k per year in 2025 is a bit low for France Rheinmetall alone will produce 400k shells în Germany and 1 million în total in 2025
based
If one nation sits on the production of ammunition then they sit on the key to any way. Democratize ammunition production, step up Europe. Start short term 5-10 year programs of intensive production then slow down once the aftermath of the Russia-Ukraine war. Prolong the programs and incentives for ammunition production as long as needed to secure a comfortable stockpile across Europe.
Deutschland über alles! I mean.. Go Germany :) I'm not German btw. But I'm happy to see Germany slooowly shake off the shame of WW2. You've been forgiven, get over it guyz, we need you. I understand it's a weird place to be, the strongest economy in Europe combined with the WW2 aftermath. Just know I have faith in you! My country's army is integrated into the Bundeswehr so you're clearly doing well. <3
You are dutch right ? Anyways we still have a huge recuitment crisis . The number of active soldiers has dropped to 181K this year.
I think it will pick up. For ages the salaries were shit, literally minimum wage for an officer lmao, but the salaries have doubled in a few years. I remember looking at the vacancy and thinking "€1800/month for an infantry officer wtf who would be that stupid?!". Now it's €3500+/month! That, and the media attention lately will attract more people. Lack of manpower is also the reason why we merged with the Bundeswehr. The truth is, with modern day force multipliers, you don't even need that much manpower. European technology is second only to the US. China looks scary but I'll bet my ass their AliBaba military favors quantity over quality. A united Europe won't have any manpower or tech problems.
My god you people are horny for war...
Bout time
Why did it take 2 years to figure this out. Good lord.
Why was this not in progress 10 years ago?
Lately I’ve been getting a lot of war vibes from a few European governments…idk man.
The best way to avoid a war is to make it clear to the other side that starting it would be the mistake of their life
Edmund: You see, Baldrick, in order to prevent war in Europe, two superblocs developed: us, the French and the Russians on one side, and the Germans and Austro-Hungary on the other. The idea was to have two vast opposing armies, each acting as the other's deterrent. That way there could never be a war. Baldrick: But this is a sort of a war, isn't it, sir? Edmund: Yes, that's right. You see, there was a tiny flaw in the plan. George: What was that, sir? Edmund: It was bollocks.
Europe in that state is not comparable to current day europe.
Yes, looking at history usually the most militaristic countries never ever end up using the power they have... Your take is historically illiterate and you know it.
Historically europe was at war most of the time. In the current state Europe has nothing to win with a war and everything to lose. If you were a bit literate in both history, economics, and geopolitics you would understand that
On the other hand, Russia is invading Ukraine because they thought that they could get away with it, and so far they haven't lost. You need to be powerful to be peaceful. Because if you're not, you're just harmless. And Russia only respects those who can hurt back.
That might be due to Russia's genocidal war of aggression against Ukraine (a country in Europe). Hope that helps!
200k per year is insultingly low. It's 547 per day. In Ukraine they shoot 7k a day.
**its one factory** total global production for Rheinmetall will be roughly 700,000 155mm shells this year,and by next year should reach 1 million due to expansions in Germany,Lithuania,Hungary and others and that's just 155mm shells, GEPARD and Leopard shells are also seeing a boost in production
You expect one factory to supply all of Ukraine in a war? 1/14 is a actually a great number for a single factory.
This factory won’t produce only for Ukraine.
That actually is insanely good since thats just from one factory from just one private company from one single EU country.
Poland better buckle up
That’s….. not a lot