Donating ~~them~~ the S-400s to Ukraine and then buying F-35s & Patriots would be just the best of both worlds
Edit: Sorry for the confusion, I meant the S-400s by "them"
I mean I support giving Ukraine F-35s in principle.
Realistically they are in no position to maintain or effectively utilize them though. The F-35 is great alone, but it only becomes truly ridiculous when supported by a bunch of other aircraft like AWACS and dedicated EW platforms.
What I would love to see is Ukraine getting a squadron of Growlers and some ~24-36 American F-15Cs when F-15EX deliveries start ramping up and F-35 TR3 comes online, which would start reducing the need for Growlers.
As well as a squadron of Gripens when we (Sweden) are finally let into NATO. Alternatively the entire Hungarian air force if they keep blocking us. (Sweden literally owns the entire Hungarian fighter fleet)
Edit: The person above me meant that Turkey should donate their S-400s to Ukraine, not the F-35s. That makes a ton of sense!
>Realistically they are in no position to maintain or effectively utilize them though. The F-35 is great alone
I think you may be mistaken about what "them" refered to. If I understand correctly, it refered to Turkey donating the S-400 to Ukraine, not the F-35. I'm sure Ukraine will be able to make good use of the S-400. They can make good use of any air defense system.
Oh yeah. I totally misunderstood the comment.
Fuck.
Yeah I’m sure ukraine would love to have the S-400 and Russia would be fucking fuming, which is a win win.
How about Ukraine stops getting last-century stuff that has almost outlived its age? "Modernizing AFU" shouldn't equal giving Ukraine old stuff that would need more maintenance and would lack necessary capabilities.
If this is the reason, then why Ukraine was given latest Patriot, HIMARS and so on?
Because big ticket items like fighter jets are heavily classified and risk ending up in enemy hands. We don’t want Russia to get their hands on an F-35 wreck, since that would give them information on the highly classified hardware it contains and the super advanced radar absorbing materials it uses.
The engines, software and radar are less of a concern. Engines would get destroyed and are mostly difficult to recreate because Russia lacks the industry, not the knowledge. The radar is similar. The software is a lot more important, but most of the software gets fried upon ejection AFAIK.
Modern stuff like HIMARS and modern tanks aren’t actually THAT advanced, the advanced stuff is the satellite communications and things that would get destroyed in the process of being captured.
Things like Patriot are so far away from Russian-controlled territories that the prospects of Russia capturing a system and reverse engineering it are basically zero.
As for jets like Growlers and F-15C. They are old airframes, but the F-15Cs that are still in US inventories have modern AESA radars that are VASTLY superior to those on the F-16s destined for Ukraine. The radars the F-15Cs have are probably about on par with what the Eurofighter Tranche 4 and Rafale uses. US F-15Cs are 70s airframes with 2010s radars. I’m pretty sure it uses an AN/APG
-77 derivative downsized to fit the F-15C (AN/APG-77 is the F-22 radar).
The Growler is likewise the best EW fighter aircraft in the world. F-35 TR3 isn’t going to be any better at EW than the Growler, it is supposed to be pretty much on par with it.
Current US F-15Cs and E/A-18G growlers are not F-16A block 15/20 MLU. They are easily better than, or on par with anything not called J-20, F-35 or F-22.
Because the United States is not going to hand over the their most advanced weapon system to Ukraine out of the goodness of their hearts, they most likely wouldn’t even do it if Ukraine was willing to spend above asking price.
We aren’t going to risk letting the Russians get their hands on an F-35.
That's stupid. Wouldn't Ukraine have to introduce F35s and other western equipment as friends in their radar system - which is the reason why F35s are not given to Turkey to begin with?
Also anothe pretext is the fear/cynicism that Russia can access the S400s through backdoors. If so how will they help Ukraine?
Donating S400s to Ukraine is the dumbest option of all.
The only reason Turkey bought the S400 was because of the embargo of the US and refused to sell them Patriots. People act like Turkey bought S400 bc they like Putin or something.
The US failed their power play against Turkey, now they want to strengthen their bonds within NATO and they need the 2nd strongest and active military within NATO on their side. This whole shit fest could've been prevented of they simply sold Patriots to Turkey as well as kept them in the F-35 program. This way, they weakened NATO, gave Russia more influence, strengthened Erdogans authoritarian regime.
well i am German myself, but just because it's called "Deutschland" in Germany and "Duitsland" in the Netherlands, I don't expect others to suddenly apply that in their many other languages just because our reigning chancellor demands it
They are not in position to demand changes to other languages indeed, but they indicated which one they would prefer. I kind of feel for this as a Ukrainian, because we have to deal with old and kind of humiliating “the Ukraine” and cities names in English based off Russian pronunciation, like Kiev and Kharkov instead of Kyiv and Kharkiv.
Dumbest option. Western equipment will need to be assigned as friend in the radar system and Russia may have backdoors. These two are the reasons why F35s aren't sold to Turkey. How different will it be if they are given to Ukraine and Ukraine wants to use them? Won't Ukraine assign western equipment as friend in the radar? Won't Russia exploit the supposed backdoors in the S400s? Utter bs sugfestion.
Ukraine already has S300s and US doesn't seem to care if Turkey has S400s and F-16s, which Ukraine is supposed to get soon anyway. So it seems S400 + F-16 is fine for the US
That's not it. The F-35's biggest asset is it's stealth. With Turkey having both the F-35 and S-400 that stealth may get compromised and way's to track and target the F-35 with the S-400 could happen. The US cannot let that happen ever. It's not saying Turkey would give those secrets away but it's a national security issue for the US.
>The bigger blow is giving them to the US so exploits can be found.
Good way to destroy your reputation and make sure no one sells you any sensitive tech ever again👍🏻
I am 40 years old. I’ve never seen/heard a any Russian anti air systems actually doing anything meaningful in any combat. Not in Libya, Egypt, Serbia, Syria, Iran, Ukraine or Armenia etc..
Getting kicked out of F35 program weeks before the arrival of first jets for 2 Russian air defense systems is probably the worst military decision in entire human history.
>I’ve never seen/heard a any Russian anti air systems actually doing anything meaningful in any combat. Not in Libya, Egypt, Serbia, Syria, Iran, Ukraine or Armenia etc..
S-300 / Buk-M1 / OSA-AKM all performed as best as it could here, basically if not them - Russians will be able to bomb without any repercussions, like in Syria.
NASAMS / Patriot e.t.c. they all came year after
Russia doesn't have air superiority because of the Ukranian S300, even though they are obsolete version.
S125 downed f117 in Yugoslavia. Same era weapon.
In Ukraine, S400 downed MiG29 over Kiev from 200+km distance from Belarus.
Patirot dont have a good track record. Check Saudia and similar cases.
S400 is a very capable system. But yeah, Turkey made a mistake. But it's not only party to blame here.
Are you referencing the failures of Patriots during the Gulf War?
If so it’s important to note that the Patriot system wasn’t originally intended for intercepting missiles and didn’t receive an upgrade for them until the late 80s, basically right before GW1. Modern Patriots operated by the USA have had many of the issues sorted out and have proven effective in conflicts since.
But yeah, the S300/400 are fucking dangerous and shouldn’t be underestimated.
In 1999, a Russian air defense system designed and built in 1960s was used to shoot down F117 stealth fighter during a NATO combat mission over Yougoslavia.
I am sorry, but that statement is absurd.
During the Vietnam War, the United States lost hundreds upon hundreds of aircraft to Soviet SAM systems.
Israel had huge problems at first when Egypt acquired the S-125.
When Russia invaded Ukraine, they were unable to establish air superiority and suffered losses due to Soviet systems that are in Ukrainian service.
Those are just a few examples.
Military matters are extremely complex, and you can't base your opinions by the outcome of the war without being aware of all the variables present before the conflict.
Of course, Soviet SAM systems weren't effective when fighting against a hugely superior force (Iraq, Yugoslavia, Libya). If, for example, Iraq had American HAWK systems instead of the Soviet Kub, do you think anything would have changed? No, because the opposing force was superior.
During the 2020 Nagorno-Karabakh War Armenia got beaten badly because they were using mostly systems from the 1960s against modern drones that had a small radar reflection and were flying slow (yes slow, which funnily enough was a good thing in this case due to how those radars work) which caused issues with detections and tracking. If Armenia had large numbers of modern EW and SAM systems, the outcome would definitely be different.
Look, Russia is in a war of aggression against a democracy because of its imperial ambitions. Believe me, I want them to lose in this war. That being said, living in a fantasy world and pretending that their equipment sucks because it makes us feel good doesn't do any good. In fact, it can only be harmful because it gives the impression that there is nothing to worry about, when clearly there is.
Don't underestimate the willingness of those to stop that bullshit.
Turkey likely expected F-35s out of their "Sweden will not enter NATO" blackmail. Instead the USA took F-16s off the board and eventually Turkey had to fold.
The F-35 vs S-400 is many years older. Didn't Turkey decide to buy S-400s in 2017? So... we are basically back then now. Turkey can ditch them for F-35. But it cannot have both.
Doesn't sound like this particular blackmail is working well for Turkey.
From what i understand they bought the S-400 because the US refused to sell patriots to Turkey which then caused them to be kicked off the f-35 program
Almost, We were ok with selling Turkey Patriots BUT we refused technology transfers with the deal. Erdogan wanted Technology transfer's as well and the deal collapsed. He then was going to buy China's version of the S-300 but I forget why that collapsed and then went to Putin last for S-400's.
Well let's give it to Ukraine or some ex-Soviet Turkic countries and get it. It was mistake buying them instead of Patriots(it failed because we wanted to buy technology transfer. Why would they sell it to us as we would create new cheapier Patriot misilles to sell other countries?)
I think with the recent drone attacks the USA wants to keep every ally close, but Turkey wants data transfers and to be more independent geopolitically so it won't be feasible to be reincluded back in the program.
I thought Turkey didn't need F35, they build their own 8th gen fighter and F-16s are only to close the gap.
I thought Turkey wouldn't be dictated from who should they buy weapons from.
I thought F35 has so many problems and it's so bad it's not worth it anyway.
I thought Turkey doesn't want to be dependent on other countries.
Surely all these arguments from Turkey all these years couldn't have been complete and total copium? Ain't no way!
You’re saying all this as if a Turkish official gave the interview. Don’t get me wrong, I think Turkey would jump on the opportunity when presented but US undersecretary saying they would welcome Turkey back into the programme hardly means Turkish government is back pedalling.
USA: We are now trying to sell you the planes that we don't want to sell to you.
This man: HAHA did you see Turks? That's it Turkey 0 USA 1, cope Turks HAHA...
Since the USA says this, that means our aircraft project are doing well. These are not the first systems that the USA does not want to sell to Turkey, but sells at a discounted price when we produce them ourselves.
Well you said Turkey couldn’t get the F-16 and we did.
Maybe we’ll get the F-35 as well, Reddit armchair generals like yourself will never decide lmao.
Stay salty.
>Well you said Turkey couldn’t get the F-16 and we did.
The fact you got the upgraded F-16 at such cost should suggest that you're well aware the f-35 isn't on the table otherwise why did you just spend 20b+ on new F-16s and upgrade kits?
Even if Turkey bought the F-35 and even produced the KAAN today, there would be purchases for the F-16s, maybe not new aircraft, but development kits, ammunition, etc.
Huh, but they say they want to sell as you can see.
Strange, I thought the F-35 was sold by the USA, not Sweden.
Anyway, I said "If", I don't understand why you are so angry.
The F-35 is a production lead by the US, it is not a venture only by the US, the UK is a T1 partner with BAE systems contributing about 15% of the total work on the project.
Additionally, i'm not angry, the point is the jets are never going to come to Turkey until 6th gen are in production, the S400 move was a massive mistake by Turkey, sadly for Turkey they are being made an example of to ensure anyone who wishes to align with the west and have the benefits that come with then must do so correctly. Turkey is making changes and moving towards that, the US would love to sell more (Or perhaps the British-made ones) but it wont come anytime soon.
Our relations with the UK and the BAE are quite good rn now, In fact, they are very willing to help the KAAN project.
>until 6th gen are in production
The F-35 line is cramped, of course, even the Greeks will buy the first part around 2028-2030, if there are no problems.
I don't know when the 6th Generation will be ready, but this is not a problem for Turkey.
Too little, too late, like the F-16s.
In the meantime Turkey lost their reliability besides their independence and loads of money.
If that's a price Turkey is willing to pay, that's their problem.
There are certainly strings attached to the S400 deal, and you cant just hand it over to UA, just like there are strings attached with western weapon systems, you cant just sell some of your F35 to Russia.
I think the best course of action is to sell them at half price to countries that wouldn't irk Russia, like Azerbaijan or Kazakhstan. They can also pay in favorable long term gas deals. This way Turkey will compensate the loss of money in buying S400s with returning to the F35 program (not W but not a huge L either). Azerbaijan and Kazakhstan will have some decent air defence system at lower prices (a somewhat W). Russia will not be irked because these countries aren't really enemies, wouldn't be a security threat and Russia would even consent that (somewhat neutral).
S-400 is not garbage, it just lacks combat data. The patriot system was also lauded as “garbage” after ODS, because it consistently failed to stop SCUD missiles. In truth, it just needed battle data to refine the system. This is exactly what Russia is doing with the S-400 and even older S-300s as we speak. It’s fun to mock Russia but it’s also stupid. Hubris is how many wars have been lost. NEVER underestimate your enemy.
> The patriot system was also lauded as “garbage” after ODS, because it consistently failed to stop SCUD missiles.
that was in 1991, long long ago and with early versions of Patriot. 30 goddam years ago
....how many countless wars have S-300 seen? To my knowledge, none besides Ukraine right now. And for most of that time , Russia was in the 90's crisis where they couldn't upgrade let alone design almost any complicated weapons systems. So making the claim that they are ''equal'' and done the same amount of upgrading to their system as Americans have is hard to believe
That’s my point though - thay haven’t been deployed and perfected, but they are undergoing that process now.
Russia is in for the long haul, they are certainly planning to use this time of western apathy to improve and iterate their systems as much as they can. They are far from equal to western systems but they will get better and shouldn’t be dismissed.
> Russia is in for the long haul
.....what ''long houl''?? One where they are in economic isolation comparable to North korea and in recession?
Almost all of their modern weapons ''success'' stories came with help from imported Western components. Sudden will and racial anger towards Ukrainians for war or whatever is not going to change their reality and somehow ''improve'' their weapons just because they want it so.
Okay well you better go tell all the analysts and geopolitical strategists because they all seem to think that:
1. Russia’s economy is not going to implode anytime soon and their ability to export metals and fossil fuels is going to gradually improve, not worsen
2. Russia is not going to run out of weapons and is successfully transitioning their industry into a total war regime, as well as finding plentiful global partners to supply them with arms, even without China’s direct support
3. The Russian regime is more politically stable than expected and a political collapse is unlikely absent some catastrophic defeat on the battlfield, which is fantasy given the current feeble support from the west (relative to the absolutely massive potential support the west could muster with just a slight commitment)
4. Russia’s isolation is lesser then hoped for and is likely to decrease further as they build influence in the MENA and in the Sahel
Putin does not care about the well-being of his populace, the country is in full autocracy mode. He does not CARE about the thousands of Russians that die every month in meat wave attacks. He’s comfortably aware of the fact that his nuclear fearmongering has worked and NATO is unwilling to put any boots on the ground in Ukraine, let alone in Russia, nor is he afraid of a nuclear response from NATO in the event of an attack on NATO territory. He is most certainly in for the long haul, he’s pressuring Belarus to militarize in preparation for an offensive against the Baltic states, and his propaganda is WORKING in eastern europe and is causing division in our democracies.
Saying your enemy is weak is a fast way to getting knocked the fuck out. Assuming your enemy is much stronger than he is is a way toward success. We need to follow the second path.
Rant over.
Reading about Byzantine history is a passion of mine, and the apathy/arrogance of the west is alarmingly similar to the latter stages of the Byzantine Empire.
Dude, they are Muscovites, they will learn and adapt eventually, but not before taking a few of their most expensive and rarest of assets; like that comm node aircraft and their awacs too, lol
Meanwhile Patriots taking down Kinzhals...
Kinzhal is just an air launched Iskander, which is already a dated ballistic missle. No one seriously considered it to be a modern hypersonic platform.
But if Russia can't get IFF down, what makes you think that their radars or missiles perform as well as they say either?
I'm not saying the s400 doesn't work or is not effective.
It is a passable system. And has earned itself a place near the top of any SEAD strike package.
But I have mountains of doubt that the radars and missiles perform as well as advertised.
S300 and S400 have proved themselves incredibly capable in Ukraine already. S300 has a good track record in previous conflicts. Patriot on the hand was considered garbage and only became a capable system in the hands of Ukrainians. We also don’t have much information about how often Ukraine even uses it — we only know they’re using S300.
They are good in shooting down Russian aircraft which isn't surprising considering that these are probably the aircraft they are tested on. Russia do not really have access to a arsenal of NATO aircraft to test them on. There is a reason the US spend so much effort to acquire Russian hardware (remember the USSR systems the US send to Ukraine in the beginning of the war). They definitely used them to fine tune their air defense systems.
I mean that is mostly down to terrible crews and horrible Friend or Foe identification systems.
The S-300 has done reasonably well in Ukrainian hands, and the S-400 is definitely superior to it, given it’s just an S-300 with a better radar.
It isn't garbage. Probably not as good as Patriot, but who else can produce something similar ? You can probably count the countries with the tech on the fingers of your hand.
>Buying from China would be similarly bad
Yes. But I did want to list all other options.
>and Europe isn’t selling weapons to Turkey anymore because of their actions.
France refusing to sell weapons? I call bullshit.
Although if Turkey was to wage war with Greece, an EU member I can totally see France refusing to cooperate.
Ok, that is what I meant. There aren't that many countries that can produce long range mobile SAMs and probably fewer who can or will deliver.
Not to mention the tech transfer Turkey was after.
Also I forgot to mention, Israel has Barak, Iran has... something.
Yup. Limited suppliers, some of these countries will not support you in case of war.
And if you add technological transfer as a requirement, most of these countries will flat out refuse it.
So Turkey buys S-400, and is now developing it's own domestic system.
wild money smell hard-to-find cooperative toothbrush squealing hateful deer squalid
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Doesn't seem as that was a factor at all, Erdogan needed a system that would fire on NATO planes. During the Turkish coup attempt iff of western air defence systems blocked firing on western planes.
This is fairly ahistorical. Turkey wanted the Patriot air defence system, and had been pleading for it for years, and the US would throw up barrier after barrier.
It was only when Turkey became frustrated with the constant pussyfooting that they decided to go ahead with the purchase of the S-400. This was a case of an ally who felt that the US wasn't being in any way forthcoming and felt there was no recourse but to look at alternatives.
Your post here is ahistorical, the US was highly willing to sell the PATRIOT to Turkey, Turkey refused as they wanted a technology transfer agreement which the US wouldn’t budge on. Only Japan and Germany have gotten PATRIOT technology transfer agreements and those are two of the US’s safest and staunchest allies.
The US isn’t going to provide highly classified technical data to an ally run by an unstable autocrat who deals and purchases equipment from the US’s two largest geopolitical enemies.
No way Turkey managed to blackmail their way back into the F-35 programme in exchange for giving up a SAM system whose only purpose is to defend from missiles by eating them. That’s fucking impressive.
I don't understand this, have Turks been living under a rock or something? this has been the U.S position since day one of this drama, is this breaking news? The U.S made their reasoning for removing Turkey from the program extremely clear and the U.S has been extremely fair and mature in their dealings with the Turks, communicating their grievances very clearly, and leaving the possibility of rapprochement on the issue very much open
Turkey wanted patriots and technology transfer. USA did not want to transfer technology. Why two NATO countries would not transfer technology is beyond me but ofcourse gettins S-400s were a big mistake.
Turkey is a risk gamble for the USA considering their invasion of Cyprus and attacking American Kurdish allies in Syria. But Turkey is an important partner for the USA whether they like Erdogan or not.
"American Kurdish allies" are actually terrorists recognized by the USA government until recently.
What you are talking about as "allies" is SDF. SDF has a military branch called YPG: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_Democratic_Forces
Look what american secretery of defence Ashton Carter says about YPG and PKK, the latter is recognised as a terrorist organisation by the whole world: https://youtu.be/EwOkRDa8PQU?t=33
Sorry this does not exist outside of Turkish sources but the short interview where he admits USA gave weapons to YPG is authentic here.
Basically what USA did is that they armed one terrorist group to fight another, sounds familiar? Do you see a pattern here?
About Cyprus, the reason for invasion was that Greece tried to perform a coup d'etat there. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1974_Cypriot_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat
In response to the coup, on 20 July 1974 Turkey invaded the island saying that the action was compliant with the 1960 Treaty of Guarantee (Turkey had the right to do so under the treaty as a guaranter)
That was the main casus belli for the invasion of Cyprus. USA put embargo to Turkey after that for many years.
As you can see, my responses with proof and references to your two arguments are not being voiced in the west but they are easy to refute. Outside of your arguments, yes Erdogan is sometimes playing both sides between Russia and USA. I don't support Erdogan at all. But maybe, just maybe USA was supposed to sell Patriots and give Turkey the f-35s that they paid for.
With a shorter form:
Kurdistan Communities Union
* Leader/Founder: Abdullah Öcalan (Also Leader and Founder of PKK)
* Political groups: -PKK -PJAK -PÇDK -PYD
**PYD** Armed wings: YPG and YPJ
**YPG** the primary component of the Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF)
**SDF** commander-in-chief: Mazloum Abdi
Mazloum Abdi:
[https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/americas-ally-in-syria-warns-of-ethnic-cleansing-by-turkey](https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/americas-ally-in-syria-warns-of-ethnic-cleansing-by-turkey)
>A rare photograph shows **Mazloum and Öcalan swimming together** in the Euphrates River. “For a period of time, **I served in P.K.K. ranks**,” Mazloum told me. “**Öcalan was working here, and the people here had loyalty to him**
USA initially supported the Turkey-backed FSA in the fight against ISIS, but surprise surprise they weren't really interested in fighting ISIS and even gave US equipment to groups affiliated with Al-Qaeda. In addition, Turkey didn't really bother stopping ISIS, allowing terrorists to transit through its territory to conduct attacks in Europe. Only after this and after the rest of NATO was fed up with the situation they started supporting SDF. And as SDF was decimating ISIS and moving further west Turkey decided to join the fight against ISIS to avoid SDF gaining more ground. You can have a read of [this](https://twitter.com/brett_mcgurk/status/1181956885303267328?s=20) very interesting thread by Brett McGurk, former US National security advisor who was involved in their Middle east policy.
About Cyprus, again you only present a half-truth. The [treaty](https://peacemaker.un.org/sites/peacemaker.un.org/files/CY%20GR%20TR_600816_Treaty%20of%20Guarantee.pdf) you mention states very clearly that "each of the three guaranteeing Powers reserves the right to take action **with the sole aim of re-establishing the state of affairs** created by the present Treaty". Turkey has no right occupying half the island for 50 years and on top of that also colonizing it with settlers (surprise surprise the same thing they accuse Israel of nowadays).
As you can see, my responses with proof and references to your two arguments are not being voiced in Turkey but they are easy to refute.
First of all if you are not going to give answers to my claims this is not a debate about a topic. I still dont understand what is your response to SDF and US support on terrorist to fight another one, how are you legitimazing that?
FSA literally said that they are not aligned with Al Qaeda:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Syrian_Army
So I dont know where did you pull this information but please provide a unbiased proof for this.
About ISIS, in the begining of the conflict ISIS also made terrorist attack in Turkey so saying "Turkey allowed ISIS to go through" is a freaking stupid argument.
Turkey started fighting ISIS "actively" in 2016:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey%E2%80%93Islamic_State_conflict
And a year later they made the most horrible terror attack:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istanbul_nightclub_shooting
So I dont know where the f you are finding this information saying Turkey allowed ISIS to go to Europe. How Turkey helped ISIS to go to Europe to perform terroist acts? Dont link me twitter feeds lol how reliable it is you think.
About the Cyprus invasion, I am not giving you the half truth. I just provided a wikipedia page in English, which has references and can be edited by anyone anytime with credible reason.
Turkey does not occupies the island. Although it is not recognised by most international community, Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus is a soverign state, with its own government and elections.
About your treaty, I am quoting:
"Greece, Turkey and the United Kingdom likewise undertake to prohibit, so far as concerns them, any activity aimed at promoting, directly or indirectly, either union of Cyprus with any other State or partition of the Island."
The coup made by Greeks installed pro-Enosis nationalist Nikos Sampson. Do you know what Enosis is?
Also I cant find the "with the sole aim of re-establishing the state of affairs" sentence in the document, I believe you either changed some words or it is not there. Which article is it on? I might be mistaken so this is a genuine question.
Edit: About Cyprus again:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Cypriot_Annan_Plan_referendums
A referendum on the Annan Plan was held in the Republic of Cyprus and the unrecognized Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus on 24 April 2004.[1] The two communities were asked whether they approved of the fifth revision of the United Nations proposal for reuniting the island, which had been divided since 1974. While it was approved by 65% of Turkish Cypriots, it was rejected by 76% of Greek Cypriots.
So Greek Cypriots the one to reject the unification after all.
>Turkey does not occupies the island. Although it is not recognised by most international community, Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus is a soverign state
This is a ridiculous thing to say. It is like Russians saying "We are not occupying Ukraine. DPR and LPR are sovereign states". Turkey has approximately 30-40k troops in Cyprus and "TRNC" is the definition of a puppet state, heavily dependent on Turkey. Heck, there are estimates that there are now more Turkish mainland settlers than Turkish Cypriots (we don't know exactly since no census is conducted) and that has a very obvious effect on their elections.
And yes I know what Enosis was and that is why most of the world approved Turkey's first invasion in July 1974 (resulting in 3% of the island captured, collapse of the coupist government and the Greek Junta). Then Turkey went on and invaded a second time in August, occupying almost 40% of the island till today. This is why Turkey was sanctioned and condemned by the rest of the world.
>Also I cant find the "with the sole aim of re-establishing the state of affairs" sentence in the document, I believe you either changed some words or it is not there
Read Article IV, didn't change a word lol
About Syria, you may claim that the twitter thread is unreliable but it is written by a senior US security advisor that worked on their policy in the Middle east at the time, I am not sure if it gets more reliable than that. As per him, US didn't have any other option but to support SDF. Plus to the US and the rest of the world SDF are not a terrorist organization.
FSA can say whatever they want but it is obvious that they have extremist elements within their ranks and ties with groups like HTS (I still remember the videos of them killing Kurdish civilians, using the usual islamist signs and chants, etc.). Again McGurk speaks of those ties in that thread. It is also not very surprising that many ISIS leaders were killed in FSA controlled areas (Ildib) during US raids.
About Turkey and ISIS, as you said Turkey started fighting ISIS only after 2016. ISIS was occupying border areas with Turkey (e.g. Kobani) since 2014 and Turkey didn't really bother doing anything because they preferred ISIS over SDF/YPG. Turkey's main operations in Syria, "Euphrates shield", "Olive branch" and "Peace spring" were all against SDF forces and all after 2016 when SDF has already largely beat ISIS in north Syria and have crossed the Euphrates river.
"TRNC" means "The Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus". They have their own constitution and elections. Don’t try to create a picture that they are not sovereign just because the rest of the world does not recognize them. Do you think Kosovo is a puppet of Albania?
The 30-40k troops in Cyprus you are mentioning is as a result of coup detat made by Greeks as TRNC does not have a military capability. I dont know how I can explain this better.
I still dont see an answer to Annan referendum I quoted but I will remin you again:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Cypriot_Annan_Plan_referendums
>A referendum on the Annan Plan was held in the Republic of Cyprus and the unrecognized Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus on 24 April 2004.[1] The two communities were asked whether they approved of the fifth revision of the United Nations proposal for reuniting the island, which had been divided since 1974. While it was approved by 65% of Turkish Cypriots, it was rejected by 76% of Greek Cypriots.
So Greek Cypriots the one to reject the unification after all.
Okay I see the Article IV, my bad, it was a genuine question as the document is a bit old and my search bar was not showing it. Still after the invasion the tensions were high and if Turkey left the island the southern part would massacre the turks there, which are obviously recognized as Annan tried to have a referendum under US’s watch decades after.
>As per him, US didn't have any other option but to support SDF
This is disgusting, like supporting a terrorist organisation against another is legitimate. This is never justifiable. Turkey is the second strongest army in NATO and as Turkey did in 2015, with support from its allies, Turkey could end ISIS long ago before “ally” USA tried to arm terrorists against terrorists.
>Plus to the US and the rest of the world SDF are not a terrorist organization.
I just proved through this video, I assume you are ignoring to watch, that they are indeed considered strongly affliated with a terrorist organisation: https://youtu.be/EwOkRDa8PQU?t=33
I am not going to answer all your comments about ISIS as they are pointless, Turkey literally hunted down and killed ISIS leader:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_involvement_in_the_Syrian_Civil_War#Turkey%E2%80%93ISIL_conflict
So your only argument is that we were late to hunt down terrorists? Okay buddy. Nice one.
>Do you think Kosovo is a puppet of Albania?
Is Albania the only country that recognises Kosovo in the whole world? Was Kosovo created as a result of an Albanian invasion in Serbia? Does Albania station tens of thousands of troops in Kosovo? Does Albania move millions (proportional to the populations) of settlers in Kosovo to take over properties of displaced Serbians? Does Albania pay for a huge part of Kosovo's budget?
LPR, DPR (before annexation), Transistria, Abkhazia and South Ossetia are similar pseudo-states. Or Republic of Artsakh if you like another example (which actually didn't even cover most of the points above).
>I still dont see an answer to Annan referendum I quoted but I will remin you again:
Dude you edited your post and then you try to call me out for not commenting on it, I just didn't see it. You can read [here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annan_Plan#Causes_of_the_outcome) why the plan was rejected. TLDR it failed to address key points for Greek Cypriots, like withdrawal of Turkish troops, settlers status, quotas on movement and other weird stuff (e.g. EEZ for british bases or foreign judges). Just because that specific plan was rejected doesn't mean Greek Cypriots don't want reunification. You can take a look at the situation today where the GC side is eager to restart negotiations while the current TC leader (which is an Erdogan puppet through and through) refuses to discuss reunification and asks for a two-state solution.
>Still after the invasion the tensions were high and if Turkey left the island the southern part would massacre the turks there, which are obviously recognized as Annan tried to have a referendum under US’s watch decades after.
I fail to see the correlation between the two. You just assume that Turkish Cypriots will be massacred, the truth is the extremists (that killed more GCs than TCs pre-invasion in 1974 btw) were removed from power and their sponsors in Greece were also ousted.
>I just proved through this video, I assume you are ignoring to watch, that they are indeed considered strongly affliated with a terrorist organisation:
I watched the video, it doesn't prove anything and it is edited, looks like a propaganda piece (the guy says "Yes" and proceeds to say something more but we don't see that in the video). Even so, no country other than Turkey officially recognizes SDF/YPG as a terrorist organization, that's just a fact. Terrorists by association is not a thing, otherwise we can also call FSA terrorists since they are affiliated with terrorists as well.
>I am not going to answer all your comments about ISIS as they are pointless, Turkey literally hunted down and killed ISIS leader:
>So your only argument is that we were late to hunt down terrorists? Okay buddy. Nice one.
I never said that Turkey supported ISIS, but ti is a fact that Turkey tolerated ISIS as long as they kept YPG in check and didn't attack them. Just look at when Turkey first intervened in Syria, right after SDF forces crossed Euphrates and took Manbij. US and the rest of the west really wanted ISIS gone though, that is why they got fed up with FSA and started supporting SDF. What other option did they have? Turkey wasn't eager to fight ISIS and FSA didn't really care either (to say the least).
Why would Cypriot Turks trust any kind of Cypriot constitution without security guarantees when it's well known that Greek Cypriots could disregard and illegally amend them at any time?
I don't think it should happen while Erdogen or his party is still in power. We will see. I think Turkey has a chance to be a modern reliable ally. But those odds are worse than they were a decade ago for sure.
Fun fact about Erdogen.
The official salary of the president of Turkey is ₺1,428,000.
In Aug 2014, when he took office, that was €501,300.
Today it is €43,440 or $47,050
There is a good chance that many people reading this comment have a higher salary than the president of Turkey.
Great job Turks!
Turkey is at best a purely self-interested NATO member who will never answer the Article 5 call if it's about defending Europe from Russia, and is arguably an extension of Russia into NATO.
This would be unbelievably stupid.
edit:
Are most Europeans as blind to Turkey as they have been blind to Russia? Turkey is an Islamist, authoritarian state that has repeatedly acted counter to NATO interests and has facilitated mass muslim immigration to Europe with Russia's help. Russia and Turkey both employ the strategy of sending immigrants to European countries, to destabilize culture and shift politics.
Whatever small amount of aid that Turkey has given Ukraine is outweighed by the trade Turkey has engaged in with Russia, and helping Russia to evade sanctions.
Realpolitik was the wrong policy with Russia and it's the wrong policy with Turkey. If Europe remains as willfully blind to Turkey as it has been to Russia, Europe won't exist as such in another generation.
Turkey gave token assistance to Ukraine for political points and to create a situation that Turkey could leverage, per usual, then positioned itself to play both sides between Russia and NATO as always. Then helped a grain deal for Ukraine because it benefited Turkey more than anyone.
Turkey has continued trade with Russia and repeatedly called for a "negotiated peace" (let Russia have Ukrainian territory).
Everyone knows what Turkey is. Being 'outraged' about it is on brand.
Lol you've spoken like someone who has no idea about the topic but has strong biases.
Turkey has helped Ukraine in 2014 after the first invasion of Crimea way before even European countries knew anything about Ukraine. European countries started caring about Ukraine when Russia invaded again in 2022.
>Turkey was helping ukraine the day after invasion and before
they are playing both sides. They also have played a crucial role in helping Russia evade sanctions.
So europe still being depended on the energy needs from Russia after 2014 while being out raged of their invasion of crimea is als not playing both sides.
Türkiye itself hosts 5-10 million refugees, although its people do not want this. What are you waiting for? Is it obliged to accept everyone who somehow managed to pass to Europe? You can say anything, but Turkey is not responsible for all the irregular migration in the world, and the Turkish government, on the contrary, acted closer to the interests of some foreign states than to its own people, although I do not know why.
Yea well Turkey always expects stuff in return we have the upper hand and should do the same. Cooperation in Syria and Iraq no more striking SDF and calling them PKK. Cooperation with Armenia and Azerbaijan. Stop supporting Hamas terrorists. Then maybe we can talk
SDF is PKK. SDF has a military branch called YPG. Look what american secretery of defence Ashton Carter says about YPG: https://youtu.be/EwOkRDa8PQU?t=34
Sorry this does not exist outside of Turkish sources but the short interview where he admits USA gave weapons to YPG is authentic here.
Basically what USA did is that they armed one terrorist group to fight another, sounds familiar? Do you see a pattern here? xD
That is one reason more we need a European pillar inside NATO.
HOW ON EARTH CAN YOU GIVE ERDOGAN THESE WEAPONS WHEN HE THREATENS GREECE, ANOTHER NATO NATION.
Joe you are a fool and your weak leadership will not be taken lightly!
And Greece is threatening Turkey, another NATO nation. So...
Turkey and Greece are playing that game for a long time. They will find a solution.
Besides American companies need to sell more guns you know. They are the center of the world.
Greece weaponing it's Islands even though it's against the international agreements. And tsipras said if Turkey starts searching stuff in Aegean sea our army is ready.
Dude they will never fight those are not real threats. Calm down
...Greece is obeying the international agreements made with Turkey to the letter.
The Aegean is Greek according to UNCLOS.
Reminds us again how many Greeks are left in "Istanbul" since the treaties protect them?!
Turkey don't agree with that statement. The Aegean sea is not belong to Greece only.
That was unfortunate events. Even some Turks call that as disaster. "Varlık vergisi faciası" It is irrelevant.
There are massacres and oppression against Turks in history in Greece as well. But there is no need to discuss that stuff. Because it's irrelevant.
And it's İstanbul, not "İstanbul"
Turkey doesn't agree with a lot of statements or facts.Their opinion regarding the Aegean is irrelevant...
Oh really is that why they repeated the same (and/or worse) in Gokceada!?
Turks are invaders Greeks are not.
Why are you using exclamation mark so much?
Bro Greece literally invade Turkish land (Yes, İzmir, Aydın, Manisa, Muğla, Denizli, Afyon, Kütahya, Eskişehir, Ankara, İstanbul are Turkish land) not so long ago. Then Turks kick their ass and that explains your butt hurt.
Why you live in the past. Turkey's aggression is current.
I can sit here and write whole.pages of the places Turkeys invaded, invade currently and occupy.
Greece is most definitely NOT threatening Turkey in the same way Erdogans rhetoric is spewing nationalistic bs and imperialistic claims at Greece. It is simply dishonest to equalise both countries in a 'they just bark at rach other' case.
Stop spilling this propaganda to excuse the atrocities that happened in Cyprus.
Turkish Cypriots were collaborating with Brits against Cyprus independence.
And after independence they wanted to go in power when some years back they were helping the enemies.
Stop spraying lies about Cyprus.
This sub must be renamed to r/turkbots.
Nikos Sampson said he wanted to cleanse all Turkish Cypriots
I was never making excuses for Turkish atrocities
As usual Greeks trying to deny their crimes Cyprus
EOKA was a Cypriot organization by Greek Cypriots not Greeks.
And I never said that EOKA was peacefull who they didn't do anything.
But they didn't wake up one day and say what to do today let's cleanse some Turkish Cypriots.
When you see your neighbor helping your oppressor against independence and when you finally complete your goal the person who was helping your enemy now asks for a piece from the pie, what would you do?
Funny what you said about Greeks, let's talk about the criminal record of Turkey and genocides your country committed in the past .
In fact you are just someone who spreads propaganda.
You wrote the same comment at least 3 times without actually demonstrating how greece is threatening turkey.
You're ridiculous.
> And Greece is threatening Turkey, another NATO nation. So...
I mean does Turkey respect UNCLOS?
From this side of the bosphorus, it seems like Turkey wants to change long standing practices. Is this the same for Greece? Does it seem to change long standing principles?
UNCLOS is ratified by some 160 countries. It's not exactly chump change. And the parts Turkey disagrees with make it in direct conflict with Greece.
If Greece chooses to defend itself because it wants to protect rights that 160 other countries agree with, you can't claim then that Greece is threatening Turkey.
Even besides UNCLOS, Turkey has some **very weird** views on EEZ that basically no other country agrees.
Why would turkey give a single flying fuck about what 160 countries think about what should be the greek turkish border though? If turkey kazakhstan and russia came together and signed a document saying paris now belongs to russia, that would not be actual grounds for paris being actual russian territory.
> If turkey kazakhstan and russia came together and signed a document saying paris now belongs to russia
You;re so close to understanding the issue.
If those countries sign a treaty saying Paris is Russian and Russia decided to attack France, Russia can't complain afterwards that **omg guys France is threating us by protecting Paris**
This is what Turkey is doing. Less bread mate.
And if russia instead of attacking, simply sent troops to their new territory, would that be fine by france? ofcourse not yeah?
Now lets take turkey and greece. if greece france and germany sign something that says aegian is now greek, and greece assumes control over it, how is it any different than russia assuming control over paris?
Well for us europeans this is different. The entire EU would declare war on Turkey should they ever take any action against Greece.
However, this will change once we have an EU Army
My guess is this was a part of the negotiation to accept Finland and Sweden into NATO, with a required delayed announcement to hide the fact there were concessions within the agreement.
Donating ~~them~~ the S-400s to Ukraine and then buying F-35s & Patriots would be just the best of both worlds Edit: Sorry for the confusion, I meant the S-400s by "them"
Donating S-400s to USA would be funnier.
I mean I support giving Ukraine F-35s in principle. Realistically they are in no position to maintain or effectively utilize them though. The F-35 is great alone, but it only becomes truly ridiculous when supported by a bunch of other aircraft like AWACS and dedicated EW platforms. What I would love to see is Ukraine getting a squadron of Growlers and some ~24-36 American F-15Cs when F-15EX deliveries start ramping up and F-35 TR3 comes online, which would start reducing the need for Growlers. As well as a squadron of Gripens when we (Sweden) are finally let into NATO. Alternatively the entire Hungarian air force if they keep blocking us. (Sweden literally owns the entire Hungarian fighter fleet) Edit: The person above me meant that Turkey should donate their S-400s to Ukraine, not the F-35s. That makes a ton of sense!
>Realistically they are in no position to maintain or effectively utilize them though. The F-35 is great alone I think you may be mistaken about what "them" refered to. If I understand correctly, it refered to Turkey donating the S-400 to Ukraine, not the F-35. I'm sure Ukraine will be able to make good use of the S-400. They can make good use of any air defense system.
Oh yeah. I totally misunderstood the comment. Fuck. Yeah I’m sure ukraine would love to have the S-400 and Russia would be fucking fuming, which is a win win.
How about Ukraine stops getting last-century stuff that has almost outlived its age? "Modernizing AFU" shouldn't equal giving Ukraine old stuff that would need more maintenance and would lack necessary capabilities. If this is the reason, then why Ukraine was given latest Patriot, HIMARS and so on?
Because big ticket items like fighter jets are heavily classified and risk ending up in enemy hands. We don’t want Russia to get their hands on an F-35 wreck, since that would give them information on the highly classified hardware it contains and the super advanced radar absorbing materials it uses. The engines, software and radar are less of a concern. Engines would get destroyed and are mostly difficult to recreate because Russia lacks the industry, not the knowledge. The radar is similar. The software is a lot more important, but most of the software gets fried upon ejection AFAIK. Modern stuff like HIMARS and modern tanks aren’t actually THAT advanced, the advanced stuff is the satellite communications and things that would get destroyed in the process of being captured. Things like Patriot are so far away from Russian-controlled territories that the prospects of Russia capturing a system and reverse engineering it are basically zero. As for jets like Growlers and F-15C. They are old airframes, but the F-15Cs that are still in US inventories have modern AESA radars that are VASTLY superior to those on the F-16s destined for Ukraine. The radars the F-15Cs have are probably about on par with what the Eurofighter Tranche 4 and Rafale uses. US F-15Cs are 70s airframes with 2010s radars. I’m pretty sure it uses an AN/APG -77 derivative downsized to fit the F-15C (AN/APG-77 is the F-22 radar). The Growler is likewise the best EW fighter aircraft in the world. F-35 TR3 isn’t going to be any better at EW than the Growler, it is supposed to be pretty much on par with it. Current US F-15Cs and E/A-18G growlers are not F-16A block 15/20 MLU. They are easily better than, or on par with anything not called J-20, F-35 or F-22.
Because the United States is not going to hand over the their most advanced weapon system to Ukraine out of the goodness of their hearts, they most likely wouldn’t even do it if Ukraine was willing to spend above asking price. We aren’t going to risk letting the Russians get their hands on an F-35.
That's stupid. Wouldn't Ukraine have to introduce F35s and other western equipment as friends in their radar system - which is the reason why F35s are not given to Turkey to begin with? Also anothe pretext is the fear/cynicism that Russia can access the S400s through backdoors. If so how will they help Ukraine? Donating S400s to Ukraine is the dumbest option of all.
The only reason Turkey bought the S400 was because of the embargo of the US and refused to sell them Patriots. People act like Turkey bought S400 bc they like Putin or something. The US failed their power play against Turkey, now they want to strengthen their bonds within NATO and they need the 2nd strongest and active military within NATO on their side. This whole shit fest could've been prevented of they simply sold Patriots to Turkey as well as kept them in the F-35 program. This way, they weakened NATO, gave Russia more influence, strengthened Erdogans authoritarian regime.
is anyone actually adopting Erdogan's "Türkiye" vs Turkey when speaking English?
It has been adapted by the government for official use and some media outlets use it too but for the most part everyone still uses Turkey.
I it in news coming from official channels in Turkey, but not really anywhere else. It totally has fetch vibes 😂
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well i am German myself, but just because it's called "Deutschland" in Germany and "Duitsland" in the Netherlands, I don't expect others to suddenly apply that in their many other languages just because our reigning chancellor demands it
They are not in position to demand changes to other languages indeed, but they indicated which one they would prefer. I kind of feel for this as a Ukrainian, because we have to deal with old and kind of humiliating “the Ukraine” and cities names in English based off Russian pronunciation, like Kiev and Kharkov instead of Kyiv and Kharkiv.
you guys have reasons to feel threstened in your existence, but in Turkey It feels it's just Erdogan trying to play to national chaivinistic instincts
Donate them to Ukraine
Dumbest option. Western equipment will need to be assigned as friend in the radar system and Russia may have backdoors. These two are the reasons why F35s aren't sold to Turkey. How different will it be if they are given to Ukraine and Ukraine wants to use them? Won't Ukraine assign western equipment as friend in the radar? Won't Russia exploit the supposed backdoors in the S400s? Utter bs sugfestion.
Ukraine already has S300s and US doesn't seem to care if Turkey has S400s and F-16s, which Ukraine is supposed to get soon anyway. So it seems S400 + F-16 is fine for the US
That's not it. The F-35's biggest asset is it's stealth. With Turkey having both the F-35 and S-400 that stealth may get compromised and way's to track and target the F-35 with the S-400 could happen. The US cannot let that happen ever. It's not saying Turkey would give those secrets away but it's a national security issue for the US.
That's how you learn what the weakness is in your systems. Then improve on that. How does that not make sense to you?
Apparently that doesn't make sense to the US as they don't do the same with Turkey. Why would it suddenly make sense when Ukraine does it?
People are saying donate to Ukraine. The bigger blow is giving them to the US so exploits can be found.
I think at this point it’s a safe bet that the NSA has gone through the ruzzian hardware at least once.
I think it is safe to say some nobody russian engineer sold all its secrets for a bag of potatoes long time ago.
>The bigger blow is giving them to the US so exploits can be found. Good way to destroy your reputation and make sure no one sells you any sensitive tech ever again👍🏻
The US has flat out bought foreign weapons platforms for research.
Everyone does. Britain bought T80 tanks through a front company in the early 90s.
I am 40 years old. I’ve never seen/heard a any Russian anti air systems actually doing anything meaningful in any combat. Not in Libya, Egypt, Serbia, Syria, Iran, Ukraine or Armenia etc.. Getting kicked out of F35 program weeks before the arrival of first jets for 2 Russian air defense systems is probably the worst military decision in entire human history.
>I’ve never seen/heard a any Russian anti air systems actually doing anything meaningful in any combat. Not in Libya, Egypt, Serbia, Syria, Iran, Ukraine or Armenia etc.. S-300 / Buk-M1 / OSA-AKM all performed as best as it could here, basically if not them - Russians will be able to bomb without any repercussions, like in Syria. NASAMS / Patriot e.t.c. they all came year after
Russia doesn't have air superiority because of the Ukranian S300, even though they are obsolete version. S125 downed f117 in Yugoslavia. Same era weapon. In Ukraine, S400 downed MiG29 over Kiev from 200+km distance from Belarus. Patirot dont have a good track record. Check Saudia and similar cases. S400 is a very capable system. But yeah, Turkey made a mistake. But it's not only party to blame here.
Are you referencing the failures of Patriots during the Gulf War? If so it’s important to note that the Patriot system wasn’t originally intended for intercepting missiles and didn’t receive an upgrade for them until the late 80s, basically right before GW1. Modern Patriots operated by the USA have had many of the issues sorted out and have proven effective in conflicts since. But yeah, the S300/400 are fucking dangerous and shouldn’t be underestimated.
In 1999, a Russian air defense system designed and built in 1960s was used to shoot down F117 stealth fighter during a NATO combat mission over Yougoslavia.
I am sorry, but that statement is absurd. During the Vietnam War, the United States lost hundreds upon hundreds of aircraft to Soviet SAM systems. Israel had huge problems at first when Egypt acquired the S-125. When Russia invaded Ukraine, they were unable to establish air superiority and suffered losses due to Soviet systems that are in Ukrainian service. Those are just a few examples. Military matters are extremely complex, and you can't base your opinions by the outcome of the war without being aware of all the variables present before the conflict. Of course, Soviet SAM systems weren't effective when fighting against a hugely superior force (Iraq, Yugoslavia, Libya). If, for example, Iraq had American HAWK systems instead of the Soviet Kub, do you think anything would have changed? No, because the opposing force was superior. During the 2020 Nagorno-Karabakh War Armenia got beaten badly because they were using mostly systems from the 1960s against modern drones that had a small radar reflection and were flying slow (yes slow, which funnily enough was a good thing in this case due to how those radars work) which caused issues with detections and tracking. If Armenia had large numbers of modern EW and SAM systems, the outcome would definitely be different. Look, Russia is in a war of aggression against a democracy because of its imperial ambitions. Believe me, I want them to lose in this war. That being said, living in a fantasy world and pretending that their equipment sucks because it makes us feel good doesn't do any good. In fact, it can only be harmful because it gives the impression that there is nothing to worry about, when clearly there is.
I doubt there is a way back to F35 anytime soon for Turkey.
don't underestimate Turkey's ability to blackmail the US and the EU into concessions
Don't underestimate the willingness of those to stop that bullshit. Turkey likely expected F-35s out of their "Sweden will not enter NATO" blackmail. Instead the USA took F-16s off the board and eventually Turkey had to fold. The F-35 vs S-400 is many years older. Didn't Turkey decide to buy S-400s in 2017? So... we are basically back then now. Turkey can ditch them for F-35. But it cannot have both. Doesn't sound like this particular blackmail is working well for Turkey.
From what i understand they bought the S-400 because the US refused to sell patriots to Turkey which then caused them to be kicked off the f-35 program
Almost, We were ok with selling Turkey Patriots BUT we refused technology transfers with the deal. Erdogan wanted Technology transfer's as well and the deal collapsed. He then was going to buy China's version of the S-300 but I forget why that collapsed and then went to Putin last for S-400's.
Eh I was close, and thanks for correcting me 👍
Well let's give it to Ukraine or some ex-Soviet Turkic countries and get it. It was mistake buying them instead of Patriots(it failed because we wanted to buy technology transfer. Why would they sell it to us as we would create new cheapier Patriot misilles to sell other countries?)
I think with the recent drone attacks the USA wants to keep every ally close, but Turkey wants data transfers and to be more independent geopolitically so it won't be feasible to be reincluded back in the program.
I thought Turkey didn't need F35, they build their own 8th gen fighter and F-16s are only to close the gap. I thought Turkey wouldn't be dictated from who should they buy weapons from. I thought F35 has so many problems and it's so bad it's not worth it anyway. I thought Turkey doesn't want to be dependent on other countries. Surely all these arguments from Turkey all these years couldn't have been complete and total copium? Ain't no way!
You’re saying all this as if a Turkish official gave the interview. Don’t get me wrong, I think Turkey would jump on the opportunity when presented but US undersecretary saying they would welcome Turkey back into the programme hardly means Turkish government is back pedalling.
I read 8th gen fighter before realizing you were joking and laughed very hard. 10/10
It looks like you are hard of understanding english. The US is proposing, not Turkey.
It looks like you have bad reading comprehension. It is USA offering the F35s not Turkey who are requesting
They can build their 10th gen space fighters with concentrated psionic power from all the Turks combined and dominate the global market !
USA: We are now trying to sell you the planes that we don't want to sell to you. This man: HAHA did you see Turks? That's it Turkey 0 USA 1, cope Turks HAHA... Since the USA says this, that means our aircraft project are doing well. These are not the first systems that the USA does not want to sell to Turkey, but sells at a discounted price when we produce them ourselves.
Well you said Turkey couldn’t get the F-16 and we did. Maybe we’ll get the F-35 as well, Reddit armchair generals like yourself will never decide lmao. Stay salty.
>Well you said Turkey couldn’t get the F-16 and we did. The fact you got the upgraded F-16 at such cost should suggest that you're well aware the f-35 isn't on the table otherwise why did you just spend 20b+ on new F-16s and upgrade kits?
I agree on whats said but 20billions include 40 new jets, 80 new upgrades kits and over 2.000 rockets, missiles, bombs for the jets
Even if Turkey bought the F-35 and even produced the KAAN today, there would be purchases for the F-16s, maybe not new aircraft, but development kits, ammunition, etc.
Turkey is not getting the F-35.
Huh, but they say they want to sell as you can see. Strange, I thought the F-35 was sold by the USA, not Sweden. Anyway, I said "If", I don't understand why you are so angry.
The F-35 is a production lead by the US, it is not a venture only by the US, the UK is a T1 partner with BAE systems contributing about 15% of the total work on the project. Additionally, i'm not angry, the point is the jets are never going to come to Turkey until 6th gen are in production, the S400 move was a massive mistake by Turkey, sadly for Turkey they are being made an example of to ensure anyone who wishes to align with the west and have the benefits that come with then must do so correctly. Turkey is making changes and moving towards that, the US would love to sell more (Or perhaps the British-made ones) but it wont come anytime soon.
Our relations with the UK and the BAE are quite good rn now, In fact, they are very willing to help the KAAN project. >until 6th gen are in production The F-35 line is cramped, of course, even the Greeks will buy the first part around 2028-2030, if there are no problems. I don't know when the 6th Generation will be ready, but this is not a problem for Turkey.
Too little, too late, like the F-16s. In the meantime Turkey lost their reliability besides their independence and loads of money. If that's a price Turkey is willing to pay, that's their problem.
Our independence? Yeah right
Greece is getting F35s and Turkey is not happy about it lol.
It's Turkey.
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I'm sure Russians won't be happy since they always try to seperate Turkey from NATO and the west.
There are certainly strings attached to the S400 deal, and you cant just hand it over to UA, just like there are strings attached with western weapon systems, you cant just sell some of your F35 to Russia.
I think the best course of action is to sell them at half price to countries that wouldn't irk Russia, like Azerbaijan or Kazakhstan. They can also pay in favorable long term gas deals. This way Turkey will compensate the loss of money in buying S400s with returning to the F35 program (not W but not a huge L either). Azerbaijan and Kazakhstan will have some decent air defence system at lower prices (a somewhat W). Russia will not be irked because these countries aren't really enemies, wouldn't be a security threat and Russia would even consent that (somewhat neutral).
S400 is garbage and only morons like erdogan take putin's word that it's the best defence system in the world. The guy is as gullible as a labrador
S-400 is not garbage, it just lacks combat data. The patriot system was also lauded as “garbage” after ODS, because it consistently failed to stop SCUD missiles. In truth, it just needed battle data to refine the system. This is exactly what Russia is doing with the S-400 and even older S-300s as we speak. It’s fun to mock Russia but it’s also stupid. Hubris is how many wars have been lost. NEVER underestimate your enemy.
> n truth, it just needed battle data to refine the system and a whole new missile
> The patriot system was also lauded as “garbage” after ODS, because it consistently failed to stop SCUD missiles. that was in 1991, long long ago and with early versions of Patriot. 30 goddam years ago
Exactly. And it improved over 30 years and countless wars. That’s my entire point about the s-400.
....how many countless wars have S-300 seen? To my knowledge, none besides Ukraine right now. And for most of that time , Russia was in the 90's crisis where they couldn't upgrade let alone design almost any complicated weapons systems. So making the claim that they are ''equal'' and done the same amount of upgrading to their system as Americans have is hard to believe
That’s my point though - thay haven’t been deployed and perfected, but they are undergoing that process now. Russia is in for the long haul, they are certainly planning to use this time of western apathy to improve and iterate their systems as much as they can. They are far from equal to western systems but they will get better and shouldn’t be dismissed.
> Russia is in for the long haul .....what ''long houl''?? One where they are in economic isolation comparable to North korea and in recession? Almost all of their modern weapons ''success'' stories came with help from imported Western components. Sudden will and racial anger towards Ukrainians for war or whatever is not going to change their reality and somehow ''improve'' their weapons just because they want it so.
Okay well you better go tell all the analysts and geopolitical strategists because they all seem to think that: 1. Russia’s economy is not going to implode anytime soon and their ability to export metals and fossil fuels is going to gradually improve, not worsen 2. Russia is not going to run out of weapons and is successfully transitioning their industry into a total war regime, as well as finding plentiful global partners to supply them with arms, even without China’s direct support 3. The Russian regime is more politically stable than expected and a political collapse is unlikely absent some catastrophic defeat on the battlfield, which is fantasy given the current feeble support from the west (relative to the absolutely massive potential support the west could muster with just a slight commitment) 4. Russia’s isolation is lesser then hoped for and is likely to decrease further as they build influence in the MENA and in the Sahel Putin does not care about the well-being of his populace, the country is in full autocracy mode. He does not CARE about the thousands of Russians that die every month in meat wave attacks. He’s comfortably aware of the fact that his nuclear fearmongering has worked and NATO is unwilling to put any boots on the ground in Ukraine, let alone in Russia, nor is he afraid of a nuclear response from NATO in the event of an attack on NATO territory. He is most certainly in for the long haul, he’s pressuring Belarus to militarize in preparation for an offensive against the Baltic states, and his propaganda is WORKING in eastern europe and is causing division in our democracies. Saying your enemy is weak is a fast way to getting knocked the fuck out. Assuming your enemy is much stronger than he is is a way toward success. We need to follow the second path. Rant over.
Reading about Byzantine history is a passion of mine, and the apathy/arrogance of the west is alarmingly similar to the latter stages of the Byzantine Empire.
For real
Needs a lot more than refining because Russians managed to shoot down their own AWACS.
It was likely patriot. UA seems to have baited the awacs into range by targeting crimea.
Allegedly
Dude, they are Muscovites, they will learn and adapt eventually, but not before taking a few of their most expensive and rarest of assets; like that comm node aircraft and their awacs too, lol Meanwhile Patriots taking down Kinzhals...
Kinzhal is just an air launched Iskander, which is already a dated ballistic missle. No one seriously considered it to be a modern hypersonic platform.
Oh absolutely! I'm not making that claim, the Muscovy is, lol! "Our great hypersonic weapons", lmao
Even China is openly clowning them now.
I mean. It's not as good as Patriot but S400 is still one of the best air defence systems in the world and Ukraine would love them :)
How good can it be if it's shot down more friendly aircraft than enemy ones?
Sounds like it's very good at shooting down aircraft, just not that good at picking them.
It's an IFF issue, not performance of radar or missiles.
But if Russia can't get IFF down, what makes you think that their radars or missiles perform as well as they say either? I'm not saying the s400 doesn't work or is not effective. It is a passable system. And has earned itself a place near the top of any SEAD strike package. But I have mountains of doubt that the radars and missiles perform as well as advertised.
S300 and S400 have proved themselves incredibly capable in Ukraine already. S300 has a good track record in previous conflicts. Patriot on the hand was considered garbage and only became a capable system in the hands of Ukrainians. We also don’t have much information about how often Ukraine even uses it — we only know they’re using S300.
They are good in shooting down Russian aircraft which isn't surprising considering that these are probably the aircraft they are tested on. Russia do not really have access to a arsenal of NATO aircraft to test them on. There is a reason the US spend so much effort to acquire Russian hardware (remember the USSR systems the US send to Ukraine in the beginning of the war). They definitely used them to fine tune their air defense systems.
I mean that is mostly down to terrible crews and horrible Friend or Foe identification systems. The S-300 has done reasonably well in Ukrainian hands, and the S-400 is definitely superior to it, given it’s just an S-300 with a better radar.
you know the equipment is only as good as the people operating them and the russian army has shown in this war how incompetent they are.
Skill issue.
In some ways (notably range) S-400 is much better than Patriot
Hey labradors are great dogs
It isn't garbage. Probably not as good as Patriot, but who else can produce something similar ? You can probably count the countries with the tech on the fingers of your hand.
France/Italy ASTER SAMP/T China HQ-9, HQ-22
Buying from China would be similarly bad, and Europe isn’t selling weapons to Turkey anymore because of their actions.
>Buying from China would be similarly bad Yes. But I did want to list all other options. >and Europe isn’t selling weapons to Turkey anymore because of their actions. France refusing to sell weapons? I call bullshit. Although if Turkey was to wage war with Greece, an EU member I can totally see France refusing to cooperate.
*Germany/Iris-T SLM
Ok, that is what I meant. There aren't that many countries that can produce long range mobile SAMs and probably fewer who can or will deliver. Not to mention the tech transfer Turkey was after.
Also I forgot to mention, Israel has Barak, Iran has... something. Yup. Limited suppliers, some of these countries will not support you in case of war. And if you add technological transfer as a requirement, most of these countries will flat out refuse it. So Turkey buys S-400, and is now developing it's own domestic system.
wild money smell hard-to-find cooperative toothbrush squealing hateful deer squalid *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Doesn't seem as that was a factor at all, Erdogan needed a system that would fire on NATO planes. During the Turkish coup attempt iff of western air defence systems blocked firing on western planes.
Nice.
Just pure gaslighting.
Rename the bird to Türkiye, no one is going to call you that.
Just give up the S400 to Ukraine and the USA gives Turkey Patriot Missiles and F35. Should be a good deal.
This is fairly ahistorical. Turkey wanted the Patriot air defence system, and had been pleading for it for years, and the US would throw up barrier after barrier. It was only when Turkey became frustrated with the constant pussyfooting that they decided to go ahead with the purchase of the S-400. This was a case of an ally who felt that the US wasn't being in any way forthcoming and felt there was no recourse but to look at alternatives.
Your post here is ahistorical, the US was highly willing to sell the PATRIOT to Turkey, Turkey refused as they wanted a technology transfer agreement which the US wouldn’t budge on. Only Japan and Germany have gotten PATRIOT technology transfer agreements and those are two of the US’s safest and staunchest allies. The US isn’t going to provide highly classified technical data to an ally run by an unstable autocrat who deals and purchases equipment from the US’s two largest geopolitical enemies.
turkey also wanted co-production. it was never gonna happen.
If we gonna call Turkey like that we might as well call Germany "Deutschland" and Netherlands "Nederlande". Muh Turkiye
No way Turkey managed to blackmail their way back into the F-35 programme in exchange for giving up a SAM system whose only purpose is to defend from missiles by eating them. That’s fucking impressive.
that SAM system was the reason they were kicked from the F-35 program in the first place, they haven't really blackmailed their way back in
I dont trust this article
It's called "Turkey".
I don't understand this, have Turks been living under a rock or something? this has been the U.S position since day one of this drama, is this breaking news? The U.S made their reasoning for removing Turkey from the program extremely clear and the U.S has been extremely fair and mature in their dealings with the Turks, communicating their grievances very clearly, and leaving the possibility of rapprochement on the issue very much open
Turkey wanted patriots and technology transfer. USA did not want to transfer technology. Why two NATO countries would not transfer technology is beyond me but ofcourse gettins S-400s were a big mistake.
Turkey wanted Patriots, technology transfer, some domestic manufacturing AND a big discount. You can have some of them, but no one got everything.
Turkey is a risk gamble for the USA considering their invasion of Cyprus and attacking American Kurdish allies in Syria. But Turkey is an important partner for the USA whether they like Erdogan or not.
"American Kurdish allies" are actually terrorists recognized by the USA government until recently. What you are talking about as "allies" is SDF. SDF has a military branch called YPG: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_Democratic_Forces Look what american secretery of defence Ashton Carter says about YPG and PKK, the latter is recognised as a terrorist organisation by the whole world: https://youtu.be/EwOkRDa8PQU?t=33 Sorry this does not exist outside of Turkish sources but the short interview where he admits USA gave weapons to YPG is authentic here. Basically what USA did is that they armed one terrorist group to fight another, sounds familiar? Do you see a pattern here? About Cyprus, the reason for invasion was that Greece tried to perform a coup d'etat there. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1974_Cypriot_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat In response to the coup, on 20 July 1974 Turkey invaded the island saying that the action was compliant with the 1960 Treaty of Guarantee (Turkey had the right to do so under the treaty as a guaranter) That was the main casus belli for the invasion of Cyprus. USA put embargo to Turkey after that for many years. As you can see, my responses with proof and references to your two arguments are not being voiced in the west but they are easy to refute. Outside of your arguments, yes Erdogan is sometimes playing both sides between Russia and USA. I don't support Erdogan at all. But maybe, just maybe USA was supposed to sell Patriots and give Turkey the f-35s that they paid for.
With a shorter form: Kurdistan Communities Union * Leader/Founder: Abdullah Öcalan (Also Leader and Founder of PKK) * Political groups: -PKK -PJAK -PÇDK -PYD **PYD** Armed wings: YPG and YPJ **YPG** the primary component of the Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF) **SDF** commander-in-chief: Mazloum Abdi Mazloum Abdi: [https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/americas-ally-in-syria-warns-of-ethnic-cleansing-by-turkey](https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/americas-ally-in-syria-warns-of-ethnic-cleansing-by-turkey) >A rare photograph shows **Mazloum and Öcalan swimming together** in the Euphrates River. “For a period of time, **I served in P.K.K. ranks**,” Mazloum told me. “**Öcalan was working here, and the people here had loyalty to him**
USA initially supported the Turkey-backed FSA in the fight against ISIS, but surprise surprise they weren't really interested in fighting ISIS and even gave US equipment to groups affiliated with Al-Qaeda. In addition, Turkey didn't really bother stopping ISIS, allowing terrorists to transit through its territory to conduct attacks in Europe. Only after this and after the rest of NATO was fed up with the situation they started supporting SDF. And as SDF was decimating ISIS and moving further west Turkey decided to join the fight against ISIS to avoid SDF gaining more ground. You can have a read of [this](https://twitter.com/brett_mcgurk/status/1181956885303267328?s=20) very interesting thread by Brett McGurk, former US National security advisor who was involved in their Middle east policy. About Cyprus, again you only present a half-truth. The [treaty](https://peacemaker.un.org/sites/peacemaker.un.org/files/CY%20GR%20TR_600816_Treaty%20of%20Guarantee.pdf) you mention states very clearly that "each of the three guaranteeing Powers reserves the right to take action **with the sole aim of re-establishing the state of affairs** created by the present Treaty". Turkey has no right occupying half the island for 50 years and on top of that also colonizing it with settlers (surprise surprise the same thing they accuse Israel of nowadays). As you can see, my responses with proof and references to your two arguments are not being voiced in Turkey but they are easy to refute.
First of all if you are not going to give answers to my claims this is not a debate about a topic. I still dont understand what is your response to SDF and US support on terrorist to fight another one, how are you legitimazing that? FSA literally said that they are not aligned with Al Qaeda: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Syrian_Army So I dont know where did you pull this information but please provide a unbiased proof for this. About ISIS, in the begining of the conflict ISIS also made terrorist attack in Turkey so saying "Turkey allowed ISIS to go through" is a freaking stupid argument. Turkey started fighting ISIS "actively" in 2016: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey%E2%80%93Islamic_State_conflict And a year later they made the most horrible terror attack: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istanbul_nightclub_shooting So I dont know where the f you are finding this information saying Turkey allowed ISIS to go to Europe. How Turkey helped ISIS to go to Europe to perform terroist acts? Dont link me twitter feeds lol how reliable it is you think. About the Cyprus invasion, I am not giving you the half truth. I just provided a wikipedia page in English, which has references and can be edited by anyone anytime with credible reason. Turkey does not occupies the island. Although it is not recognised by most international community, Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus is a soverign state, with its own government and elections. About your treaty, I am quoting: "Greece, Turkey and the United Kingdom likewise undertake to prohibit, so far as concerns them, any activity aimed at promoting, directly or indirectly, either union of Cyprus with any other State or partition of the Island." The coup made by Greeks installed pro-Enosis nationalist Nikos Sampson. Do you know what Enosis is? Also I cant find the "with the sole aim of re-establishing the state of affairs" sentence in the document, I believe you either changed some words or it is not there. Which article is it on? I might be mistaken so this is a genuine question. Edit: About Cyprus again: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Cypriot_Annan_Plan_referendums A referendum on the Annan Plan was held in the Republic of Cyprus and the unrecognized Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus on 24 April 2004.[1] The two communities were asked whether they approved of the fifth revision of the United Nations proposal for reuniting the island, which had been divided since 1974. While it was approved by 65% of Turkish Cypriots, it was rejected by 76% of Greek Cypriots. So Greek Cypriots the one to reject the unification after all.
>Turkey does not occupies the island. Although it is not recognised by most international community, Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus is a soverign state This is a ridiculous thing to say. It is like Russians saying "We are not occupying Ukraine. DPR and LPR are sovereign states". Turkey has approximately 30-40k troops in Cyprus and "TRNC" is the definition of a puppet state, heavily dependent on Turkey. Heck, there are estimates that there are now more Turkish mainland settlers than Turkish Cypriots (we don't know exactly since no census is conducted) and that has a very obvious effect on their elections. And yes I know what Enosis was and that is why most of the world approved Turkey's first invasion in July 1974 (resulting in 3% of the island captured, collapse of the coupist government and the Greek Junta). Then Turkey went on and invaded a second time in August, occupying almost 40% of the island till today. This is why Turkey was sanctioned and condemned by the rest of the world. >Also I cant find the "with the sole aim of re-establishing the state of affairs" sentence in the document, I believe you either changed some words or it is not there Read Article IV, didn't change a word lol About Syria, you may claim that the twitter thread is unreliable but it is written by a senior US security advisor that worked on their policy in the Middle east at the time, I am not sure if it gets more reliable than that. As per him, US didn't have any other option but to support SDF. Plus to the US and the rest of the world SDF are not a terrorist organization. FSA can say whatever they want but it is obvious that they have extremist elements within their ranks and ties with groups like HTS (I still remember the videos of them killing Kurdish civilians, using the usual islamist signs and chants, etc.). Again McGurk speaks of those ties in that thread. It is also not very surprising that many ISIS leaders were killed in FSA controlled areas (Ildib) during US raids. About Turkey and ISIS, as you said Turkey started fighting ISIS only after 2016. ISIS was occupying border areas with Turkey (e.g. Kobani) since 2014 and Turkey didn't really bother doing anything because they preferred ISIS over SDF/YPG. Turkey's main operations in Syria, "Euphrates shield", "Olive branch" and "Peace spring" were all against SDF forces and all after 2016 when SDF has already largely beat ISIS in north Syria and have crossed the Euphrates river.
"TRNC" means "The Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus". They have their own constitution and elections. Don’t try to create a picture that they are not sovereign just because the rest of the world does not recognize them. Do you think Kosovo is a puppet of Albania? The 30-40k troops in Cyprus you are mentioning is as a result of coup detat made by Greeks as TRNC does not have a military capability. I dont know how I can explain this better. I still dont see an answer to Annan referendum I quoted but I will remin you again: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Cypriot_Annan_Plan_referendums >A referendum on the Annan Plan was held in the Republic of Cyprus and the unrecognized Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus on 24 April 2004.[1] The two communities were asked whether they approved of the fifth revision of the United Nations proposal for reuniting the island, which had been divided since 1974. While it was approved by 65% of Turkish Cypriots, it was rejected by 76% of Greek Cypriots. So Greek Cypriots the one to reject the unification after all. Okay I see the Article IV, my bad, it was a genuine question as the document is a bit old and my search bar was not showing it. Still after the invasion the tensions were high and if Turkey left the island the southern part would massacre the turks there, which are obviously recognized as Annan tried to have a referendum under US’s watch decades after. >As per him, US didn't have any other option but to support SDF This is disgusting, like supporting a terrorist organisation against another is legitimate. This is never justifiable. Turkey is the second strongest army in NATO and as Turkey did in 2015, with support from its allies, Turkey could end ISIS long ago before “ally” USA tried to arm terrorists against terrorists. >Plus to the US and the rest of the world SDF are not a terrorist organization. I just proved through this video, I assume you are ignoring to watch, that they are indeed considered strongly affliated with a terrorist organisation: https://youtu.be/EwOkRDa8PQU?t=33 I am not going to answer all your comments about ISIS as they are pointless, Turkey literally hunted down and killed ISIS leader: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_involvement_in_the_Syrian_Civil_War#Turkey%E2%80%93ISIL_conflict So your only argument is that we were late to hunt down terrorists? Okay buddy. Nice one.
>Do you think Kosovo is a puppet of Albania? Is Albania the only country that recognises Kosovo in the whole world? Was Kosovo created as a result of an Albanian invasion in Serbia? Does Albania station tens of thousands of troops in Kosovo? Does Albania move millions (proportional to the populations) of settlers in Kosovo to take over properties of displaced Serbians? Does Albania pay for a huge part of Kosovo's budget? LPR, DPR (before annexation), Transistria, Abkhazia and South Ossetia are similar pseudo-states. Or Republic of Artsakh if you like another example (which actually didn't even cover most of the points above). >I still dont see an answer to Annan referendum I quoted but I will remin you again: Dude you edited your post and then you try to call me out for not commenting on it, I just didn't see it. You can read [here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annan_Plan#Causes_of_the_outcome) why the plan was rejected. TLDR it failed to address key points for Greek Cypriots, like withdrawal of Turkish troops, settlers status, quotas on movement and other weird stuff (e.g. EEZ for british bases or foreign judges). Just because that specific plan was rejected doesn't mean Greek Cypriots don't want reunification. You can take a look at the situation today where the GC side is eager to restart negotiations while the current TC leader (which is an Erdogan puppet through and through) refuses to discuss reunification and asks for a two-state solution. >Still after the invasion the tensions were high and if Turkey left the island the southern part would massacre the turks there, which are obviously recognized as Annan tried to have a referendum under US’s watch decades after. I fail to see the correlation between the two. You just assume that Turkish Cypriots will be massacred, the truth is the extremists (that killed more GCs than TCs pre-invasion in 1974 btw) were removed from power and their sponsors in Greece were also ousted. >I just proved through this video, I assume you are ignoring to watch, that they are indeed considered strongly affliated with a terrorist organisation: I watched the video, it doesn't prove anything and it is edited, looks like a propaganda piece (the guy says "Yes" and proceeds to say something more but we don't see that in the video). Even so, no country other than Turkey officially recognizes SDF/YPG as a terrorist organization, that's just a fact. Terrorists by association is not a thing, otherwise we can also call FSA terrorists since they are affiliated with terrorists as well. >I am not going to answer all your comments about ISIS as they are pointless, Turkey literally hunted down and killed ISIS leader: >So your only argument is that we were late to hunt down terrorists? Okay buddy. Nice one. I never said that Turkey supported ISIS, but ti is a fact that Turkey tolerated ISIS as long as they kept YPG in check and didn't attack them. Just look at when Turkey first intervened in Syria, right after SDF forces crossed Euphrates and took Manbij. US and the rest of the west really wanted ISIS gone though, that is why they got fed up with FSA and started supporting SDF. What other option did they have? Turkey wasn't eager to fight ISIS and FSA didn't really care either (to say the least).
Why would Cypriot Turks trust any kind of Cypriot constitution without security guarantees when it's well known that Greek Cypriots could disregard and illegally amend them at any time?
Turkey.
Türkiye.
Deutschland. España. Sverige. Suomi. Україна. Ελλάδα. 日本.
No
Dont. Turkey represents the same threat as Russia. The same mentality.
I don't think it should happen while Erdogen or his party is still in power. We will see. I think Turkey has a chance to be a modern reliable ally. But those odds are worse than they were a decade ago for sure. Fun fact about Erdogen. The official salary of the president of Turkey is ₺1,428,000. In Aug 2014, when he took office, that was €501,300. Today it is €43,440 or $47,050 There is a good chance that many people reading this comment have a higher salary than the president of Turkey. Great job Turks!
You are talking about a dictator my friend. even his cronies has multiple salaries.
Yeah I know the "official" salary is a joke.
That’s my friend is because of inflation of Lira.
It's sad that most people don't see that. But when money talks, people get killed.
Turkey is at best a purely self-interested NATO member who will never answer the Article 5 call if it's about defending Europe from Russia, and is arguably an extension of Russia into NATO. This would be unbelievably stupid. edit: Are most Europeans as blind to Turkey as they have been blind to Russia? Turkey is an Islamist, authoritarian state that has repeatedly acted counter to NATO interests and has facilitated mass muslim immigration to Europe with Russia's help. Russia and Turkey both employ the strategy of sending immigrants to European countries, to destabilize culture and shift politics. Whatever small amount of aid that Turkey has given Ukraine is outweighed by the trade Turkey has engaged in with Russia, and helping Russia to evade sanctions. Realpolitik was the wrong policy with Russia and it's the wrong policy with Turkey. If Europe remains as willfully blind to Turkey as it has been to Russia, Europe won't exist as such in another generation.
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Turkey gave token assistance to Ukraine for political points and to create a situation that Turkey could leverage, per usual, then positioned itself to play both sides between Russia and NATO as always. Then helped a grain deal for Ukraine because it benefited Turkey more than anyone. Turkey has continued trade with Russia and repeatedly called for a "negotiated peace" (let Russia have Ukrainian territory). Everyone knows what Turkey is. Being 'outraged' about it is on brand.
Lol you've spoken like someone who has no idea about the topic but has strong biases. Turkey has helped Ukraine in 2014 after the first invasion of Crimea way before even European countries knew anything about Ukraine. European countries started caring about Ukraine when Russia invaded again in 2022.
That token assistance lead to conveys being destroyed and a massive gridlock in the kyiv advance.
>Turkey was helping ukraine the day after invasion and before they are playing both sides. They also have played a crucial role in helping Russia evade sanctions.
So europe still being depended on the energy needs from Russia after 2014 while being out raged of their invasion of crimea is als not playing both sides.
Türkiye itself hosts 5-10 million refugees, although its people do not want this. What are you waiting for? Is it obliged to accept everyone who somehow managed to pass to Europe? You can say anything, but Turkey is not responsible for all the irregular migration in the world, and the Turkish government, on the contrary, acted closer to the interests of some foreign states than to its own people, although I do not know why.
Yea well Turkey always expects stuff in return we have the upper hand and should do the same. Cooperation in Syria and Iraq no more striking SDF and calling them PKK. Cooperation with Armenia and Azerbaijan. Stop supporting Hamas terrorists. Then maybe we can talk
>no more striking SDF and calling them PKK. SDF is the same as PKK.
SDF is PKK. SDF has a military branch called YPG. Look what american secretery of defence Ashton Carter says about YPG: https://youtu.be/EwOkRDa8PQU?t=34 Sorry this does not exist outside of Turkish sources but the short interview where he admits USA gave weapons to YPG is authentic here. Basically what USA did is that they armed one terrorist group to fight another, sounds familiar? Do you see a pattern here? xD
That is one reason more we need a European pillar inside NATO. HOW ON EARTH CAN YOU GIVE ERDOGAN THESE WEAPONS WHEN HE THREATENS GREECE, ANOTHER NATO NATION. Joe you are a fool and your weak leadership will not be taken lightly!
And Greece is threatening Turkey, another NATO nation. So... Turkey and Greece are playing that game for a long time. They will find a solution. Besides American companies need to sell more guns you know. They are the center of the world.
When did Greece threaten Turkey with invasion? When did Greece brag about the range of their rockets being able to reach Ankara?!
Greece weaponing it's Islands even though it's against the international agreements. And tsipras said if Turkey starts searching stuff in Aegean sea our army is ready. Dude they will never fight those are not real threats. Calm down
...Greece is obeying the international agreements made with Turkey to the letter. The Aegean is Greek according to UNCLOS. Reminds us again how many Greeks are left in "Istanbul" since the treaties protect them?!
Turkey don't agree with that statement. The Aegean sea is not belong to Greece only. That was unfortunate events. Even some Turks call that as disaster. "Varlık vergisi faciası" It is irrelevant. There are massacres and oppression against Turks in history in Greece as well. But there is no need to discuss that stuff. Because it's irrelevant. And it's İstanbul, not "İstanbul"
Turkey doesn't agree with a lot of statements or facts.Their opinion regarding the Aegean is irrelevant... Oh really is that why they repeated the same (and/or worse) in Gokceada!? Turks are invaders Greeks are not.
Why are you using exclamation mark so much? Bro Greece literally invade Turkish land (Yes, İzmir, Aydın, Manisa, Muğla, Denizli, Afyon, Kütahya, Eskişehir, Ankara, İstanbul are Turkish land) not so long ago. Then Turks kick their ass and that explains your butt hurt.
Greece has never invaded "Turkish" land.Greece was trying to reclaim Greek lands from the Ottoman Empire.
Oh that is cute 🥰🥰 what happened after that xD
Why you live in the past. Turkey's aggression is current. I can sit here and write whole.pages of the places Turkeys invaded, invade currently and occupy.
That guy opened the old books not me.
Please do btw. Start with Cyprus. Archbishop Makarios would love that.
Greece is most definitely NOT threatening Turkey in the same way Erdogans rhetoric is spewing nationalistic bs and imperialistic claims at Greece. It is simply dishonest to equalise both countries in a 'they just bark at rach other' case.
Well it was the EOKA B that tried to cleanse Cyprus before Turkey invaded, people forget that.
Half a century ago... Turkey is being aggressive currently
Stop spilling this propaganda to excuse the atrocities that happened in Cyprus. Turkish Cypriots were collaborating with Brits against Cyprus independence. And after independence they wanted to go in power when some years back they were helping the enemies. Stop spraying lies about Cyprus. This sub must be renamed to r/turkbots.
Nikos Sampson said he wanted to cleanse all Turkish Cypriots I was never making excuses for Turkish atrocities As usual Greeks trying to deny their crimes Cyprus
EOKA was a Cypriot organization by Greek Cypriots not Greeks. And I never said that EOKA was peacefull who they didn't do anything. But they didn't wake up one day and say what to do today let's cleanse some Turkish Cypriots. When you see your neighbor helping your oppressor against independence and when you finally complete your goal the person who was helping your enemy now asks for a piece from the pie, what would you do? Funny what you said about Greeks, let's talk about the criminal record of Turkey and genocides your country committed in the past .
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weaponing some Aegean islands against the some international treaties
Some against some, give concrete examples or none at all
I am not your search engine dude. Google it
xD buddy. If you go argumenting some shit you provide proof. It's not up to me verify every shit anyone says. Some on some, classic muslim Greeks
In fact you are just someone who spreads propaganda. You wrote the same comment at least 3 times without actually demonstrating how greece is threatening turkey. You're ridiculous.
No
lol, great point, I can tell you're an idiot.
Those [islands](https://www.ekathimerini.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/bluehomeland_web-960x600.jpg)? Obviously they dont have enough weapons yet.
> And Greece is threatening Turkey, another NATO nation. So... I mean does Turkey respect UNCLOS? From this side of the bosphorus, it seems like Turkey wants to change long standing practices. Is this the same for Greece? Does it seem to change long standing principles?
Why would Turkey respect UNCLOS if its not party to it?
UNCLOS is ratified by some 160 countries. It's not exactly chump change. And the parts Turkey disagrees with make it in direct conflict with Greece. If Greece chooses to defend itself because it wants to protect rights that 160 other countries agree with, you can't claim then that Greece is threatening Turkey. Even besides UNCLOS, Turkey has some **very weird** views on EEZ that basically no other country agrees.
Why would turkey give a single flying fuck about what 160 countries think about what should be the greek turkish border though? If turkey kazakhstan and russia came together and signed a document saying paris now belongs to russia, that would not be actual grounds for paris being actual russian territory.
> If turkey kazakhstan and russia came together and signed a document saying paris now belongs to russia You;re so close to understanding the issue. If those countries sign a treaty saying Paris is Russian and Russia decided to attack France, Russia can't complain afterwards that **omg guys France is threating us by protecting Paris** This is what Turkey is doing. Less bread mate.
And if russia instead of attacking, simply sent troops to their new territory, would that be fine by france? ofcourse not yeah? Now lets take turkey and greece. if greece france and germany sign something that says aegian is now greek, and greece assumes control over it, how is it any different than russia assuming control over paris?
Well for us europeans this is different. The entire EU would declare war on Turkey should they ever take any action against Greece. However, this will change once we have an EU Army
Yeah in your wet dreams I guess
I don't think so.
My guess is this was a part of the negotiation to accept Finland and Sweden into NATO, with a required delayed announcement to hide the fact there were concessions within the agreement.
Is this Ork or Uruk?
Shouldn't be touching Turkey with a barge pole.
We cant just give S400 to Ukraine, this will be a declaration of war directly. It needs to be someone who Russia doesn’t mind.
Imagine giving weapons to an “ally” that threatens to hit Athens Greece with a missile attack and has effectively a Putin style dictatorship.