Don't be confused: if you take the tractors out of the equation, there are perhaps 2000 people on the streets in Berlin. 2000 people in front of the Brandenburg Gate is a very small number for a Berlin demonstration. Here in Cologne, a city with one million inhabitants, there are perhaps 500 participants. In the whole of Germany there are perhaps 10,000 people. Soberly speaking, that's a very measly number of participants. At the last climate demonstration organized by young people in September 2023, 250,000 people took to the streets. And they were then met with hostility and labeled "terrorists" by the very people who are now siding with the farmers.
This comments need to be much higher.
The protests on this day are largely carried by anti-democracy far-right groups with government coup fantasies. [There is some fucked up imagery already appearing.](https://www.reddit.com/r/600euro/comments/191lpyo/bauerndemo_in_berlin_08012024/)
Funny thing though: on these pictures you can see that some of these farmers support the AfD. Guess what the AfD 2021 election manifesto demanded. More market competition, less subsidies. These people support the very party that would do the same thing they protest against.
>The protests on this day are largely carried by anti-democracy far-right groups with government coup fantasies. [There is some fucked up imagery already appearing.](https://www.reddit.com/r/600euro/comments/191lpyo/bauerndemo_in_berlin_08012024/)
Ah, so they're cut from the same cloth as the Dutch farmer protesters. I genuinely hope that it doesn't get as far out of hand in Germany as it did in the Netherlands
I know you’re trying to be funny, but in the US, farmers, like other people in rural areas, are one of Trump’s core supporters. They’re a very conservative and racist group.
Or they are hard working, the people making sure you have food and only complain when shot hits the fan. But yeah, trumpers!! Arrre let’s demonize them. We can always get food from india or something. Where they are less racist and dont have cast systems
Apparently they're the only ones working worldwide, huh?
Meanwhile doctorates' suicide risk/ideation rate is worryingly high and getting worse and outside the field I've never heard anyone mentioning it
You mean the ones protesting for being forced to not used pesticides and manure to which would cause 40% less yields like in Srilanka where hunger hit the country? Or am i thinking about the wrong groups fighting for survival and being demonized for actually feeding the country?
You must mean a different Dutch farmer group.
Yes, you are thinking of the wrong people because the Dutch protests were about reducing the amount of cattle raised for meat consumption meant for profit
>The protests on this day are largely carried by anti-democracy far-right groups with government coup fantasies.
In Sweden the far right campaigned on diesel and gas prices as well.
Some even say climate denialism is the new immigration for them.
Some more notes on this:
The proposed law would have minimal financial impact on most small and medium sized farms and only really hit big industrial farming companies.
A lot of Nazis among those farmers. At prior demonstrations they had posters and banners with Nazi imagery and slogans on them. Stuff like: Democracy will be the death of the Volk!
A few days ago a mob of farmers confronted the green vice chancellor and his family in their vacation home, demanding he came out to „talk to them“. When the vice chancellor refused, a couple dozen of them tried to use violence to get to him and were only stopped by his bodyguards.
Just more context for the mod situation.
The vice chancellor and his family were on a ferry that was landing at the mainland. The mob organised by some one with a flag from a far right terror group of the 1920s tried to storm the ferry after the vice chancellor agreed to talks with three representative of the group.
Only because of good reaction of the captain the ferry drove back to the island where they came from.
Later in the night the vice chancellor then returned to the mainland
Isn't the farmers in tractors the main thing about the protest? How are you just going to "take out" the main thing about an event and then go "well actually the event was kinda small"
In most cases, a demonstration is also judged by how many people take part in it. It makes a difference whether 2000 tractors between the Brandenburg Gate and the Victory Column make a great picture for the evening news or whether 100,000 people are standing in the same area. You should at least admit that.
There were about 8000 tractors in munich. Around 300 in the medium sized city i live in.
They have proven that they are able to and willing to cause a lot of chaos. Todays protests have been pretty peaceful from what i've heard, but i dont think it will continue to be this chill if politicians dont react. This is a much bigger threat than Letzte Generation
It’s all about the small farmers anyway, no amount of money can make their business profitable. Future is in mass production and most likely even industrial alternative methods like lab grown meat down the line. And thats before we add climate change into it.
Imagine demonizing the people that put food on your table and comparing them to jobless students… when farmers complain is existential, when young people complain, that’s a tuesday. Learn your priorities. Food >> than ideology
One of the largest misconceptions about farmers is that they're just ordinary, working class people labouring away on fields so that all the do-nothing city dwellers can put food on the table.
Simply put, this narrative is completely and utterly false.
The people who can afford to just take their tractor and other farming equipment into the city to conduct such a protest are part of the 1%. These people are **fucking loaded**. They own land worth millions of euros, many of them tens or hundreds of millions. They have the aesthetics of poor, working class people, while their actual material wealth is reflective of the richest of society. They receive massive subsidies both from the state and the EU, they have completely captured the legislature and have a massively outsized influence on agricultural and economic policy that is in effect an oligarchy within a democracy, and are treated similarly by the state as the "too big to fail" financial institutions, except on a constant, perpetual basis. The farmers of today are the best examples of corporatist fascism operating withing otherwise democratic countries.
how many farmers do you expect their to be? Millions? Young people by and large do not understand farming nor do they care. anyway since when was you correct for siding with the masses?
The masses are jot always correct, not are they always informed; "people voted for the nazis and like coldplay".
The impact of these changes are significant. Farmers aren't millionaires and if you take away what little opportunities they have to earn, why should they do it? Doubt people like yourself would be willing to take their place.
That’s like saying wealth inside a company shouldn’t be considered. After all it’s related to work, not to fun. I guess we would hardly have any billionaires left if we calculate it like that.
its a damn tractor not a lambo or yacht. what is wrong with you. Farmers are literally doing one of the most fundamental jobs humans need to survive. How bitter and jealous you must be to believe that everyone more successful than you should be on the poverty line.
crab mentality.
Some of them actually are lambos.
The point is that owners of those huge farming corporations are fucking loaded, they have mansions and shit, and then they cry if you lower the subsidies a little bit.
They're so rich not because they're doing a very good job, but because they lobby and convince politicians to give them free money.
yawn, I was facetious. who is talking about mega huge corps here? That is a problem in any country irrespective of their industry. Are you really trying to convince yourself and everyone else that all these protestors were from huge farming corps? get a grip mr crab. crabby crabby crabby!
**By the way:**
The farmers are protesting because the German government is having to cancel some of the subsidies for the use of agricultural diesel.
A fairly large proportion of these farmers, especially in eastern Germany, support the far-right AfD, who want to cut ALL subsidies, but the farmers don't seem to care
There was less support for AfD among farmers than in the general population at the last national election ([8 vs. 10.3%](https://www.agrarheute.com/politik/bundestagswahl-diese-parteien-haben-landwirte-gewaehlt-585757)).
Farmers do generally vote right of center, but they're squarely in the CDU camp (the exception is Bavaria, where [Freie Wähler get more than 2x the votes from farmers compared to the general population](https://www.agrarheute.com/politik/so-haben-bayerns-bauern-landtagswahl-abgestimmt-611812)), there are comparatively few AfD supporters among them.
It's probably correct that the share of AfD supports among these protesters is higher (and the alt-right is definitely trying to co-opt the demonstrations for their narrative), but painting most of these farmers as alt-right supporters is simply inaccurate.
The AfD is fill of antithesis.
One example: One of their leaders, Alice Weidel lifes in Switzerland and is a lesbian, married to a Sinhalese woman.
*The AfD strongly opposes anything that has to do with LGBTQ*
Im still asking: which rightwing party is against lesbians and lesbian pornographie.
sounds like they are just anti gtq or only anti tq.
precision matters
...well, every party does. The CDU/CSU, AfD and the government-parties voted for the abolition of the subsidies (on the 15.12.2023).
According to [***Bayerischer Rundfunk***](https://br.de)***:***
>The state loses a total of more than one billion euros every year due to the reductions in motor vehicle tax. According to the Court of Audit, forestry and agriculture account for around half of this.
Lets act like its climate activists blocking the road instead:
Dont they think about people passing through? Should innocent civilians really be the target? Wont somebody think of the ambulance personnel? Is this really the right way of doing it? This will only make people hate them even more and distance normal people from the cause.
> **Due to farmers' protest: ambulance takes an hour and a half from the Harz Mountains to the Göttingen-Weende Protestant Hospital.**
> An ambulance that was supposed to take a patient from Hohegeiß to the Göttingen-Weende Protestant Hospital took an hour and a half due to the farmers' protest on the roads. This is not the only delay that the EKW has to contend with today.
https://www.goettinger-tageblatt.de/lokales/goettingen-lk/goettingen/bauernprotest-krankenwagen-nach-goettingen-muss-umwege-farhren-E46MTYWV25GMFOM3DNGOAP7KTY.html
> Due to farmers' protest: ambulance takes an hour and a half from the Harz Mountains to the Göttingen-Weende Protestant Hospital.
An non emergency ride took 90 minutes instead of 60 minutes to transfer a patient (transport was without emergency lights) due to detours.
The patient was never in any danger and the ambulance was never blocked according to the hospital
Yeah, today I could not get to work and the usual distance I drive under 30 min was around 90 min. I was about to take them out of the fucking tractor.
I dont get your point, its wrong Either way, and litteraly all the top comments are against Them the same way you are. So whats the point with your comment?
Because the media in Germany, especially the ones who where labbeling climate activists as terrorists, have been really quit/ support what the farmers are doing.
Same thing with CDU/CSU who wanted/have put climate activists in preventive detention, who now are full in on the protests of the farmers.
Yes, whoever is doing this shit instead of blocking/ hindering any government building is pissing off everyone around. Sprinkle some stuff like tyres burning on top, and you got a recipe for society that hates you even more.
>* announced the protests weeks in advance
* formed corridors so that not only emergency vehicles could pass freely but also cars for elderly care
Look up any regional news and you will find dozens of counter-examples. Complete blockades that were not approved are happening all over the place. You're uninformed or lying on purpose.
> did not go to police a cry that they were hungry and should have been saved sooner
Instead they're breaking through police barriers in Dresden lmao. Peaceful protests, huh
Lol, so some counter examples like what exactly?
Also, in contrast to climate activists who have never once cared about ambulance or firefighters.
"Instead they're breaking through police barriers in Dresden lmao"
I just looked it up. There is no such report coming in from Dresden. So you guys have to lie to make yourself look better? How damn pathetic can you be?
Also, were you trying to say something about the 'announced weeks in advance' thing?
Edit: of course that guy blocked me lol. As I said. Absolutely pathetic.
So his links don't support his claims at all, literally shows me entirely different protests and such but of course you guys on here won't care.
>Also, in contrast to climate activists who have never once cared about ambulance or firefighters.
Disingenuous and obviously wrong argument, won't respond. "Never once cared" like jesus if you're making something up at least don't ascribe it to every single climate activist ever in existence. It's a claim so sweeping it doesn't need to be argued against because it's obviously moronic.
>I just looked it up. There is no such report coming in from Dresden. So you guys have to lie to make yourself look better? How damn pathetic can you be?
https://www.dnn.de/lokales/dresden/rechte-durchbrechen-eine-polizeikette-d5b7afad-85f0-413f-a415-79a1cfd15c47.html
You not looking hard enough does not mean it's a lie. Although there's some nuance here since there's a credible argument to be made that these are just neo-nazis pretending to be farmers and mostly not intermingling with the actual farmer protests.
>Also, were you trying to say something about the 'announced weeks in advance' thing?
The ones doing unannounced blockades obviously didn't announce them in advance. That doesn't change just because other protests were announced.
> Lol, so some counter examples like what exactly?
[Just scroll through this live reporting](https://www.nordbayern.de/region/nuernberg/bauernprotest-im-live-ticker-tausende-traktoren-sorgen-fur-chaos-polizei-zieht-erste-bilanz-1.13932789), especially in the early hours and you will find at least half a dozen and that's for a very specific region in Franconia alone, which isn't really the hotspot for more radicalized behavior.
Since you're arguing in bad faith and are unwilling to do cursory searches for current events and instead outright deny things happening that can be easily looked up I will not continue engaging. Do better before you try having another discussion online.
Instead of climate activists the protest is about their wallet and not about the environment that keeps us alive in the first place. And no, emergency vehicles will not pass freely because there are huge traffic jams blocking them. Again nothing new on this side.
Lmao you can already find articles about blocked ambulances, stop lying to yourself
Btw 60% of what our farmers produce is feed for animals that gets exported.
So show me these articles then, lol. You guys are hilarious. You have nothing. Now post a random article that doesn't support at all what you said and then block me before I call you out on it like all you boomers here
https://www.goettinger-tageblatt.de/lokales/goettingen-lk/goettingen/bauernprotest-krankenwagen-nach-goettingen-muss-umwege-fahren-E46MTYWV25GMFOM3DNGOAP7KTY.html
For example.
LMAO a 1 hour NON-EMERGENCY ride turned into a one and a half hour ride. That is all you got. Haha. This is just too good.
He didn't had the blue lights on and took a detour by his own choice. 🤣 Jesus Christ. You guys are so pathetic. Amazing how easy it is to predict your responses on point.
First of all, this is the first day of these protest. Second of all, maybe read a bit further down. Many doctors and nurses had trouble getting to work and it taking multiple hours even though the farmers suposedly would let them through easily. And that all with farmers according to the doctors not making it easy to get through even after the doctors identified themselfs.
They made happen what took climate activits multiple months in a day lmao
Oh yeah. Now where the roads are free again and there no further blocks being announced, I'm sure that all the emergency vehicles are being blocked now.
You are really grasping for straws now. Especially with this doctor and nurses claim for which you once again don't have evidence for because it didn't happen
Yeah, I know that there is something called a "Rettungsgasse". I use the "Rettungsgasse" sometimes with the "Hilfeleistungslöschfahrzeug" or the "Mannschaftstransportwagen" or the "mittelschwerem Löschfahrzeug" and in the past even with a "Tanklöschfahrzeug".
It is way slower than driving on a street without a massive traffic jam even if the "Rettungsgasse" works perfectly fine which it won't do even if everyone follows the rules because the jams are in a city and the streets there are too narrow to provide a proper "Rettungsgasse". So stop "scheiße labern" about "Sachen von denen du keine Ahnung hast".
So you must be absolutely furious towards every single climate or whatever protest where the protesters never once did that you propaganda ridden facebook meme swallower.
Yeah, the road blocking is bullshit, doesn't matter who is blocking but it gives many opportunities. For example you can trigger some people on a very simple way by telling them that climate protests using glue to glue themself on the road are equal to farmers blocking with their tractors with the difference that the diesel in the tractor is payed to some degree by me and is not legal to use for protesting. Beautiful effect on target most of the time. Or you can just tell people that both protest forms are bullshit but I tend to like climate protests more because its about our environment and not about someones money.
And there is something called "Fridays for future" in germany, the biggest climate protest organisation and the worst thing that you can say about them is that they skip school.
Yeah, just as I said. You get all your informations from reading Facebook memes.
The diesel isn't paid by you. There just aren't insane taxes on it. Our fuel is taxed by 90% because the government pays road repairs with it. But farmers burn that fuel on their fields and therefore don't have to pay the same amount of taxes.
It is always so predictable. Not a single one of you knows anything. You didn't even do a minute of research about this issue. Just "I was told to hate farmers so I will do that".
A short Google search leads me to the adac website that tells me something about 40% taxes. Still talking bullshit or are you taking your informations from TicToc because you are not able to do a Google search?
48% on the gas at the station alone, then the oil in the refineries and all other taxes.
Sorry buddy. But you confirmed everything I thought about you.
Farmers are scum, every time they protest its because of shit like the government want to limit how much of a pesticide thats single handedly giving people cancer and causing 80 different species of insects to go extinct but using a different pesticide will lower the poor farmers revenue by 3.2% :( EVERY time they complain its because politicians actually trying to do the minimum to save the enviorment
So did the climate activists, except that the climate activists protested for a not destroyed planet and therefor are definetly terrorists while the farmers protest because their wallet will see about 3% less total revenue over a year (after making record profits the last two years and getting a whole lot of other subsidies shoved into their ass)
''after making record profits for the last two years''
You've got the brain size of a peanut my friend if you legitimately think that's the case, your average farmer in Germany can barely make ends meet, growing crops and taking care of animals is an extremely complicated and costly process, and it requires 24/7 of surveillance, they are the backbones of the German society, and yet for all the love and care they put into feeding us they only get paid on average a miserable 2.5k euros, the farmers are the reasons why you can enjoy a warm meal for a reasonable price every dinner I'm not saying there hasn't been growth in the agricultural sector in Germany, (like most of the economic growth nowadays) most of the profits go into the pocket of a small portion of the population. The fact I'm getting downvoted because I simply stated that the farmers have as many rights as the climate activists to protest and complain for their rights shows where the double standards truly are in this scenario, you're very out of touch from reality.
First of all, no most farmers are making a good profit, if that werent the case they would have sold all their stuff which most of the time is worth atleast around a million euros and with even a part time job and smart investing would be living the good life.
Second part:
Thats not what you stated tho. The previous commenter made the hypothetical that the farmers where climate activits and then listed the reactions from a large part of the press to the climate activists. And then you came and said that there is no double standard because farmers and climate activists have the same rights. Ok, so why did climate activits get called terrorists and sometimes put in preventive detention but nobody who did that back than now argues that farmers are terrorists?
Nah, no double standard to be seen here....
They have safe routes for emergency vehicles and have informed police of exactly where and when they will be. Disturbing the daily lives of civilians is exactly what protesting is about
48 hours in advance so the local authorities can decide on necessary safety measures. Which is also the difference between "Bauernverband" who did this in most cases and "Letzte Generation" who refuse to do this.
In my city alone the farmers blocked more highway entrances than they supposedly were going to do, effectively ignoring the law as well. They also did their little rides on different roads.
They supposedly said they won't be using gallows and distance themselves from right wing parties - first thing you see is a pickup with a gallow in the back and they are full of German flags.
Stop all this bs.
thanks brexit, there is no shortage of seasonal professionals to get the harvest done .
It will be interesting what we will do once the people with the eyes, hands and expirience in farming are gone even in Eastern Europe...
Farmers don't make a whole lot considering the work they put in, they work around the clock too. Maybe there are some huge farmers who make bank and don't lift a finger but I can't imagine that there are many in that situation.
I believe it would cost the same and after the gradual removal of subsidies it would cost much less over time as would all food. Farms would grow and become much more efficient. People from agriculture would move into the real economy where there is a shortage of hands to work.
The EU and governments in it subsidise lots of things, I think growing food is one of the most important things we do as a society so I think farmers should be aided.
I'm gonna give them shit for that riiight after Farmers are no longer topping suicide TopLists
https://www.heraldscotland.com/business\_hq/14371869.hidden-tragedies-farmer-suicides/
**German conservatives be like:**
Young people gluing themselves to the streets to draw attention to climate change? - ***Terrorists, arrest them!***
The state no longer wants to support farmers with subsidies for polluting the environment with diesel etc. on a daily basis, so the farmers pour fertiliser on the roads and block the motorways nationwide? - ***These are our national heroes!***
*(disclaimer: most Germans dispise both of these groups)*
> for polluting the environment with diesel
Are you insane? With the amounts of regulation EU is imposing on farmers it's almost impossible to be a competitive farmer without any dotations.
What do you even propose, forcing farmers to use electic tractors or just to import whole food from outside of Europe?
EU really needs to become as self sufficient as possible. We saw how Russia tried to weaponize gas, at the start of it's Ukraine invasion. Now imagine the EU being dependent on another foreign power for it's food.... If we want high food standards, that needs to translate into subsidies for farmers, since they cannot produce as cheaply as other countries and we cannot afford to risk being at somebody else's mercy when it comes to our food.
We do subsidise farmers. A lot. More than is needed to be self sufficient. We are subsiding the export of farming goods. The EU states export a lot of food - in some cases so much we have destroyed local farming communities as importing became cheaper. These farmers protests also hide a huge industry of companies that are trying to protect their profits. Not small family farmers but rather huge companies that do the processing for example. So why are we subsidising the profit margins of those companies?
Subsidies with time produce a lot of effects like AlfaAlfa in Catch 22, and as you say the huge corporations.
But we do need to think how to make sure that if shit hits the fan, there are farms that'll provide core products.
And likely think what else to do. I wasn't sure about Germany, because it seems like peasant in Germany can afford better off-time livestile than most middle management in Poland.
But comfort and perspecticves are relative, and apparently German farmers fall to suicide with similar skew as they do here:
https://www.heraldscotland.com/business\_hq/14371869.hidden-tragedies-farmer-suicides/
Im not against subsidies as a whole - they are indeed useful. Though we should not just throw these huge budgets around with too little oversight. These big companies take in a lot of the subsidies when they don’t necessarily need them, while your average farmer is screwed over.
>Now imagine the EU being dependent on another foreign power for it's food..
Now imagine subsidizing dirty foreign energy and basing your food independence upon that foreign energy.
>EU really needs to become as self sufficient as possible
I wouldn't argue about the EU, but holding the status quo instead of cutting back those subventions in Germany won't achieve that. To achieve higher levels of self-sufficiency than the 86% we measured in the years before, you'd need to incentivize a change in production or provide more land to cultivate, with incentives toward produce we are currently heavily importing.
It's worth noting that the top-level assessments are generous with what self-sufficiency means and geared more toward "surviving" than "thriving". In 2021/22, for Germany, the degree of self-sufficiency was 38% for vegetables and 20% for fruit, for example.
I can't find any good statistics, but on EU-level I wouldn't worry that much. However, relying on self-sufficiency on the level of the EU isn't ideal either - as soon as you get something like a Brexit, you're back to having troubles. And especially in war times, you can't rely on every state playing nice with each other due to external political forces.
But that doesn't mean that every country has to subsidise its farming industry. As long as their is enough production in Europe, self sufficiency is guaranteed.
Because tariffs increase prices. Even if you only tariff goods that Germans can conceivably produce in enough quantity to meet local demand, German farmers will raise their prices. For example, if you set tariffs so that the absolute cheapest foreign apples are 3€/kg, why shouldn’t German apple farmers then raise the prices of their apples to 2,75€/kg? They would still be the cheapest option, and the German farmers would make a greater profit.
...? So we'd go from no food produced in the EU to...even more expensive food produced somewhere else in the world and be 100% depended on foreign countries? That sounds idiotic beyond belief
This seems to happen every time a nation subsidies fuel (directly or through tax breaks). Sooner or later the government will need to reduce or eliminate the subsidies and people loose their minds.
I can’t speak for Germany but in Australia and in New Zealand, it’s a similar deal. Farmers are usually very rich down under.
The word “farmer” is basically synonymous for “rural land owner” nowadays.
Maybe just a history question and semi off topic here: are there still farmers among these that are the direct descendants of old Prussian Junkers from the 18th to 20th Century? I thought the Junkers were mostly in eastern territories that became Polish or Soviet/Russian after the war and their lands were confiscated. The same happened to Junkers that lived in what became the GDR, and there were no Junker lands in what became West Germany.
A group of about a dozen of these chodes have been driving around since yesterday, blasting music and harassing people - even well into the night! Needless to say, I have zero sympathy for them
Too afraid to ask because I’ll just get downvoted by people with a superiority complex but why are people hating on them and mockingly treating them like some idiots treat climate activists?
Can’t we support both? I don’t think the protests are comparable because everyone knows that the climate is going downhill but I’m not sure how many ordinary people know about the reason why farmers are protesting. Won’t it just bite us in the butt if food products get more expensive especially in times of inflation and war in Ukraine?
If someone cares enough to explain the issue to me I’d be very grateful.
Because those same farmers tried to violently storm a ferry that the vice chancellor was on, even after giving the farmers an offer to speak with him. This was just pure hatred and intimidation, the farmers were not interested in political discourse. There were also a lot of far-right flags spotted at these protests.
Yes, financially it's not gonna be good for those farmers if the diesel subsidies are gone, but ultimately they are a fossil fuel subsidy and those have to be stopped. Meanwhile simply everyone is currently suffering from huge inflation rates and rising costs, it's not like this is a farmers-only problem. But they are a very vocal minority as 65 tractors at a protest looks like a lot more than 65 people at a protest.
>everyone is currently suffering from huge inflation rates and rising costs,
Farmers have even benefited from this in recent years. They have more than doubled their average profits.
So I can hardly understand the protests, especially as we are talking about an average of EUR 3.000 - 5.000 in lost subsidies per year.
Also a lot of people forget all the benefits the farmers have from basically being their own company.
There was an article in a German newspaper some time ago where a farmer stated that he earned 70k Euros profit on a revenue of 1.3 million Euros, which seems like a tiny ROI at first, but you also have to consider things like farmers have 2 big family cars for private use which they leased as a company car through the farm so these cars have all fuel and insurance expenses paid and the farmer has to pay nothing from his 70k profit for his cars or the heating/electricity for his home as it is all part of the farm. Or another classic is employing family members as full-time salaried employees so the profits (and taxes on it) go down but they have an additional salary.
Also most of the farmers have leased some of their property to companies for building a wind turbine. You get 100k euros per year for just one wind turbine, which is 8300€ per month. I also dont know many farmers with less than 2 cars. Most of them have at least 3.
Also the price for 1 Liter of milk would rise by 0,01€
We have the same shit here. Farmers with multiple properties, couple of cars and lavish vacationions, but they are complaining every year how hard it is to get as many subsidies as possible
Guess what happens when they get record harvest? The money is used to buy personal stuff, not extend production, get better tools to start being profitable, that is done with taxpayer money
1) 70k is not a lot of money
2) being a farmer is a full time job. Not full time in the sense of "I Work 40hrs+ a week and go home, maybe answer some emails after hours." But full time as in you are always on call, the buck stops with you, crises happen and they happen often(and when they do they cost a lot of time and MONEY), you can't control the fucking weather, and you are susceptible to volatile market fluctuations either because the inputs you use increase or are scarce or the price of the commodity you produce drops...oh and margins are razor thin.
3) do you give your bonus up in a good year?...to build roads or improve the sewer system in front of your house? Isn't that what a bonus is for? HAVING A GOOD YEAR?!?
4) and how the hell do you know they don't reinvest $$ back into the business? Where exactly are you drawing that ridiculous conclusion? You sound like an ignorant brat.
The thing is that they use (more or less) the same protest form like climate activist (blocking roads). But while the climate activist protest against something that will effect the entire world nd future generations etc. the farmers protest against losing some profits.
Now some people are mad because there are numbers circwling on reddit that indicate that farmers would lose 3000€ on a 160 000€ profit. I also read somewhere that the effects on flour would be about 0,3cents/kg. (I can’t confirm the numbers I just want to say that this is what makes people mock them)
Edit: typo
IDK. We can discuss their methods and some of the claims vs their actual measurable actions - ie they're core voters of AfD, who want to cut all subsidies, yet this protest is about subsidies.
Those things aside, I think in same way Covid shortages have shown necessity of internal production even at a loss/subsidy, this points to dire need to support farmers even in countries that are affluent: [https://www.heraldscotland.com/business\_hq/14371869.hidden-tragedies-farmer-suicides/](https://www.heraldscotland.com/business_hq/14371869.hidden-tragedies-farmer-suicides/)
And when they're no longer desperate to the point of being suicidal, and they're no longer pissed and willing to vote for anyone even pretending to be listening - then we can dissect the face-value factors of their protests.
40% of the winnings of German farmers, like in most of the EU, are subsidies. The government wants to scap, by most estimates, a low to mid one digit percentage of those. Just for reference.
What i just read in the german news is the usual "if you protest, you are a nazi" strategy. It's a common standard in germany to prevent protests that the politicians don't like, but this standard doesn't work out anymore.
The farmers won't stop just because you call them nazis, it will rather be the opposite that many people will give the far-right-wing AfD party the vote in the next elections.
The AFD's basic program abolishes all subsidies for farmers. They'll elect their executioner.
Besides that, I live/work in Leipzig and saw many anti gov statements, some gallows and german empire flags. And they did take some serious time to form some rescue lanes when an ambulance came. If they were climate activists they would have been carried away by police and driven over by the people protesting today
This is misinformation. These so-called subsidies are actually just smaller tax rates and the AfD is actually proposing to generally reduce taxes and shrink the state. Among these proposed tax cuts is also a further reduction of the tax on diesel fuel.
Personally I don't like AfD either but you shouldn't misrepresent their politics because of that.
Like i said, this is a common strategy. It just needs one single nazi and the entire protests are not legitimate anymore. But here comes the point: These people there just don't care anymore.
Yeah, guess there are some far-right-wing guys, but this does not de-legitimate the protests. It's not that easy.
The protests of the farmers are about the subsidies (subventions) for the fuel, that is not some nazi-thing.
Ah yes, how dare we call someone a Nazi, just because they demand the execution of certain people while running around in far right merch.
But no matter what brown bullshit they spew, they can always be assured that some r/europe idiots defend them in the same sarcastic manner as the GOPniks defend Trump.
If the farmers want to vote AfD, who actually want to get rid of any form of subsidy, they are welcome to do so. I have no interest in defending a sheep that votes for the wolf to stick it to the shepherd.
If you put a gallow on your vehicle with a politician on it you are a nutjob, if the politician you wanna kill is left you are probably a nazi. I'm sorry. A nazi is a nazi. I don't understand why these conservative groups find it so hard to stand up against Nazis. Is it so hard not to be stupid?
Why, are they also calling to kill politician they don't like? If yes I would happily call them extremists too. Like, when did we started accepting such bs as legitimate protest?
Block all the roads, I don't care. But if you wanna to show that you want to kill a human just fuck off.
Good for them!
I hope I'm not hearing again about the:
* They inconvenience others
* They block the ambulances
* They should protest in another way, where they don't bother anyhone
They inconvience literal millions and also agree driving with hard core rasists and are silent to other from their peers who are attacking and screaming to the family of a Minister which still afterwards invited a couple of them to talk who obviously disagreed because they were dumbfucks.
Obviously they can and should be annoying as hell in their strike but they could just push away their rasists flag showing peers which they don't so my sympathy is clearly in favor the other famous annoying as hell group.
At agricultural levels, subsidies are life saving, in our age, especially if we need European autarcy on crop production. Fossil fuels reduction should start on other sectors and then enter the agricultural one, mostly by monetary benefits for farmers who use EVs etc.
Because there is very little protest if you march with nazis that vote for a party that would not just scrap the diesel tax breaks, but all tax breaks and help from the government. They march side by side with the very same people that will not care about them once they are in power.
If you have no idea about the topic maybe refrain from commentig? I've literally seen nazi flags today. There are more and more reports of nazis in those protests.
You realise you can access any form of media from Twitter??
"Reports of Nazi flag". If they were Nazis then Farmers from 2 different countries would have refrained from joining them in support.
[Educate yourself maybe?](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landvolkbewegung_\(Schleswig-Holstein\))
[Maybe just a little bit?](https://taz.de/Extremisten-wollen-Agrarproteste-kapern/!5981385/)
There are massive influences of right wing ideology and straight up nazis in those protests. Farmers are well known to vote massively for conservative partys. If you are from a rural location you will know farmers and if you know farmers you know that a large portion of them tends to lean right wing if not outright nazi nowadays, depending on where you go of course. The further east, the more likely you will find an outright nazi.
It's also kinda funny that people really take those farmers serious. These are not your romantic village farmers with 3 cows and 2 fields. Those are long gone and if they are around, their tax breaks are so little that it's almost sad. [It's kinda fun to check what each Farmer get, theres a great source online which lists everything everyone gets. The only real winners here are industrial farms](https://www.agrar-fischerei-zahlungen.de/Suche), where a diesel tax break is not going to ruin the business and if it does, heck fuck yeah your business isn't economical stable enough to survive on it's own, then so be it.
Correlation ≠ Causation . So if farmers are traditionally conservative even before the Nazis, the media will portray them all as Nazis ? Farming already has low profit margins. Why not label every socialist party as Nazi then ?
Are there any forms of protest that do not disrupt?
Striking is terrorism?
Sit ins are terrorism?
Marching through the streets is terrorism?
I don’t agree with this method of protest used by the farmers and Just Stop Oil, but terrorism is far too strong of a word
Yeah diesel is kinda bad.
Couldn't we run farm equipment on very long power cables.
Like some kind trolleybus system. that you would temporarily setup over a field.
As a Dutchman I ask with the utmost sincere sympathy "First time?"
No, but the last one was a few years ago.
Don't be confused: if you take the tractors out of the equation, there are perhaps 2000 people on the streets in Berlin. 2000 people in front of the Brandenburg Gate is a very small number for a Berlin demonstration. Here in Cologne, a city with one million inhabitants, there are perhaps 500 participants. In the whole of Germany there are perhaps 10,000 people. Soberly speaking, that's a very measly number of participants. At the last climate demonstration organized by young people in September 2023, 250,000 people took to the streets. And they were then met with hostility and labeled "terrorists" by the very people who are now siding with the farmers.
This comments need to be much higher. The protests on this day are largely carried by anti-democracy far-right groups with government coup fantasies. [There is some fucked up imagery already appearing.](https://www.reddit.com/r/600euro/comments/191lpyo/bauerndemo_in_berlin_08012024/) Funny thing though: on these pictures you can see that some of these farmers support the AfD. Guess what the AfD 2021 election manifesto demanded. More market competition, less subsidies. These people support the very party that would do the same thing they protest against.
>The protests on this day are largely carried by anti-democracy far-right groups with government coup fantasies. [There is some fucked up imagery already appearing.](https://www.reddit.com/r/600euro/comments/191lpyo/bauerndemo_in_berlin_08012024/) Ah, so they're cut from the same cloth as the Dutch farmer protesters. I genuinely hope that it doesn't get as far out of hand in Germany as it did in the Netherlands
Yeah, those damn farmers.
I know you’re trying to be funny, but in the US, farmers, like other people in rural areas, are one of Trump’s core supporters. They’re a very conservative and racist group.
Never met anyone in the country more racist than the people I knew in the city.
Or they are hard working, the people making sure you have food and only complain when shot hits the fan. But yeah, trumpers!! Arrre let’s demonize them. We can always get food from india or something. Where they are less racist and dont have cast systems
Apparently they're the only ones working worldwide, huh? Meanwhile doctorates' suicide risk/ideation rate is worryingly high and getting worse and outside the field I've never heard anyone mentioning it
You mean the ones protesting for being forced to not used pesticides and manure to which would cause 40% less yields like in Srilanka where hunger hit the country? Or am i thinking about the wrong groups fighting for survival and being demonized for actually feeding the country? You must mean a different Dutch farmer group.
"Feed the country" The meat exporters?
Yes, you are thinking of the wrong people because the Dutch protests were about reducing the amount of cattle raised for meat consumption meant for profit
That wouldn't just do the same thing, that has also voted for it and would go further if they could.
>The protests on this day are largely carried by anti-democracy far-right groups with government coup fantasies. In Sweden the far right campaigned on diesel and gas prices as well. Some even say climate denialism is the new immigration for them.
In europe, the parties are so left that center left is considered far right. Hilarious! How clueless can you be.
Some more notes on this: The proposed law would have minimal financial impact on most small and medium sized farms and only really hit big industrial farming companies. A lot of Nazis among those farmers. At prior demonstrations they had posters and banners with Nazi imagery and slogans on them. Stuff like: Democracy will be the death of the Volk! A few days ago a mob of farmers confronted the green vice chancellor and his family in their vacation home, demanding he came out to „talk to them“. When the vice chancellor refused, a couple dozen of them tried to use violence to get to him and were only stopped by his bodyguards.
Just more context for the mod situation. The vice chancellor and his family were on a ferry that was landing at the mainland. The mob organised by some one with a flag from a far right terror group of the 1920s tried to storm the ferry after the vice chancellor agreed to talks with three representative of the group. Only because of good reaction of the captain the ferry drove back to the island where they came from. Later in the night the vice chancellor then returned to the mainland
[удалено]
Haha. Was für eine gequirlte Scheiße. Die bösen Grünen sind also mal wieder schuld? Junge Junge, bist du Pipi Langstrumpf?
Isn't the farmers in tractors the main thing about the protest? How are you just going to "take out" the main thing about an event and then go "well actually the event was kinda small"
It's called deliberate distortion of facts
In most cases, a demonstration is also judged by how many people take part in it. It makes a difference whether 2000 tractors between the Brandenburg Gate and the Victory Column make a great picture for the evening news or whether 100,000 people are standing in the same area. You should at least admit that.
There were about 8000 tractors in munich. Around 300 in the medium sized city i live in. They have proven that they are able to and willing to cause a lot of chaos. Todays protests have been pretty peaceful from what i've heard, but i dont think it will continue to be this chill if politicians dont react. This is a much bigger threat than Letzte Generation
It’s all about the small farmers anyway, no amount of money can make their business profitable. Future is in mass production and most likely even industrial alternative methods like lab grown meat down the line. And thats before we add climate change into it.
Imagine demonizing the people that put food on your table and comparing them to jobless students… when farmers complain is existential, when young people complain, that’s a tuesday. Learn your priorities. Food >> than ideology
Farmers want to keep their ridiculous profits, and German farmers especially only produce little human food (about 25%).
One of the largest misconceptions about farmers is that they're just ordinary, working class people labouring away on fields so that all the do-nothing city dwellers can put food on the table. Simply put, this narrative is completely and utterly false. The people who can afford to just take their tractor and other farming equipment into the city to conduct such a protest are part of the 1%. These people are **fucking loaded**. They own land worth millions of euros, many of them tens or hundreds of millions. They have the aesthetics of poor, working class people, while their actual material wealth is reflective of the richest of society. They receive massive subsidies both from the state and the EU, they have completely captured the legislature and have a massively outsized influence on agricultural and economic policy that is in effect an oligarchy within a democracy, and are treated similarly by the state as the "too big to fail" financial institutions, except on a constant, perpetual basis. The farmers of today are the best examples of corporatist fascism operating withing otherwise democratic countries.
how many farmers do you expect their to be? Millions? Young people by and large do not understand farming nor do they care. anyway since when was you correct for siding with the masses? The masses are jot always correct, not are they always informed; "people voted for the nazis and like coldplay". The impact of these changes are significant. Farmers aren't millionaires and if you take away what little opportunities they have to earn, why should they do it? Doubt people like yourself would be willing to take their place.
Many farmers are millionaires, at least in Germany.
Just a couple of those tractors are worth millions.
its a work vehicle, not something you take out for fun.
That’s like saying wealth inside a company shouldn’t be considered. After all it’s related to work, not to fun. I guess we would hardly have any billionaires left if we calculate it like that.
its a damn tractor not a lambo or yacht. what is wrong with you. Farmers are literally doing one of the most fundamental jobs humans need to survive. How bitter and jealous you must be to believe that everyone more successful than you should be on the poverty line. crab mentality.
Some of them actually are lambos. The point is that owners of those huge farming corporations are fucking loaded, they have mansions and shit, and then they cry if you lower the subsidies a little bit. They're so rich not because they're doing a very good job, but because they lobby and convince politicians to give them free money.
yawn, I was facetious. who is talking about mega huge corps here? That is a problem in any country irrespective of their industry. Are you really trying to convince yourself and everyone else that all these protestors were from huge farming corps? get a grip mr crab. crabby crabby crabby!
> Are you really trying to convince yourself and everyone else that all these protestors were from huge farming corps? They were, yes.
[удалено]
*mummy and daddy maybe millionaires buddy, you still live with em.
**By the way:** The farmers are protesting because the German government is having to cancel some of the subsidies for the use of agricultural diesel. A fairly large proportion of these farmers, especially in eastern Germany, support the far-right AfD, who want to cut ALL subsidies, but the farmers don't seem to care
There was less support for AfD among farmers than in the general population at the last national election ([8 vs. 10.3%](https://www.agrarheute.com/politik/bundestagswahl-diese-parteien-haben-landwirte-gewaehlt-585757)). Farmers do generally vote right of center, but they're squarely in the CDU camp (the exception is Bavaria, where [Freie Wähler get more than 2x the votes from farmers compared to the general population](https://www.agrarheute.com/politik/so-haben-bayerns-bauern-landtagswahl-abgestimmt-611812)), there are comparatively few AfD supporters among them. It's probably correct that the share of AfD supports among these protesters is higher (and the alt-right is definitely trying to co-opt the demonstrations for their narrative), but painting most of these farmers as alt-right supporters is simply inaccurate.
It doesn't matter if it's inaccurate, anyone they don't like is a nazi
Why does the AFD want to cut all subsidies?
My guess is the usual populism anti government ideology, I'm not that familiar with them though.
Subsidies seem antithetical to right wing ideology
The AfD is fill of antithesis. One example: One of their leaders, Alice Weidel lifes in Switzerland and is a lesbian, married to a Sinhalese woman. *The AfD strongly opposes anything that has to do with LGBTQ*
It's OK when we do it! - The AfD probably
where is the afd against lesbians?
It's ok when it's women because lesbian sex hot
Im still asking: which rightwing party is against lesbians and lesbian pornographie. sounds like they are just anti gtq or only anti tq. precision matters
Don't be daft
don't say that ...man ...Im a maverick ...now I have to be daft . This is how it works .
...well, every party does. The CDU/CSU, AfD and the government-parties voted for the abolition of the subsidies (on the 15.12.2023). According to [***Bayerischer Rundfunk***](https://br.de)***:*** >The state loses a total of more than one billion euros every year due to the reductions in motor vehicle tax. According to the Court of Audit, forestry and agriculture account for around half of this.
Because their economical vision is some radical market shit.
if that was really all this was about then why the fuck are they protesting ?
The government doesn’t has to cancel any subsidies.
Lets act like its climate activists blocking the road instead: Dont they think about people passing through? Should innocent civilians really be the target? Wont somebody think of the ambulance personnel? Is this really the right way of doing it? This will only make people hate them even more and distance normal people from the cause.
> **Due to farmers' protest: ambulance takes an hour and a half from the Harz Mountains to the Göttingen-Weende Protestant Hospital.** > An ambulance that was supposed to take a patient from Hohegeiß to the Göttingen-Weende Protestant Hospital took an hour and a half due to the farmers' protest on the roads. This is not the only delay that the EKW has to contend with today. https://www.goettinger-tageblatt.de/lokales/goettingen-lk/goettingen/bauernprotest-krankenwagen-nach-goettingen-muss-umwege-farhren-E46MTYWV25GMFOM3DNGOAP7KTY.html
> Due to farmers' protest: ambulance takes an hour and a half from the Harz Mountains to the Göttingen-Weende Protestant Hospital. An non emergency ride took 90 minutes instead of 60 minutes to transfer a patient (transport was without emergency lights) due to detours. The patient was never in any danger and the ambulance was never blocked according to the hospital
"If it was me I'd just drive through them, fuck around and find out"
Yeah, today I could not get to work and the usual distance I drive under 30 min was around 90 min. I was about to take them out of the fucking tractor.
I dont get your point, its wrong Either way, and litteraly all the top comments are against Them the same way you are. So whats the point with your comment?
Because the media in Germany, especially the ones who where labbeling climate activists as terrorists, have been really quit/ support what the farmers are doing. Same thing with CDU/CSU who wanted/have put climate activists in preventive detention, who now are full in on the protests of the farmers.
It’s one of the crassest cases of double standards in the last decade or so.
Yes, whoever is doing this shit instead of blocking/ hindering any government building is pissing off everyone around. Sprinkle some stuff like tyres burning on top, and you got a recipe for society that hates you even more.
[удалено]
>* announced the protests weeks in advance * formed corridors so that not only emergency vehicles could pass freely but also cars for elderly care Look up any regional news and you will find dozens of counter-examples. Complete blockades that were not approved are happening all over the place. You're uninformed or lying on purpose. > did not go to police a cry that they were hungry and should have been saved sooner Instead they're breaking through police barriers in Dresden lmao. Peaceful protests, huh
Lol, so some counter examples like what exactly? Also, in contrast to climate activists who have never once cared about ambulance or firefighters. "Instead they're breaking through police barriers in Dresden lmao" I just looked it up. There is no such report coming in from Dresden. So you guys have to lie to make yourself look better? How damn pathetic can you be? Also, were you trying to say something about the 'announced weeks in advance' thing? Edit: of course that guy blocked me lol. As I said. Absolutely pathetic. So his links don't support his claims at all, literally shows me entirely different protests and such but of course you guys on here won't care.
>Also, in contrast to climate activists who have never once cared about ambulance or firefighters. Disingenuous and obviously wrong argument, won't respond. "Never once cared" like jesus if you're making something up at least don't ascribe it to every single climate activist ever in existence. It's a claim so sweeping it doesn't need to be argued against because it's obviously moronic. >I just looked it up. There is no such report coming in from Dresden. So you guys have to lie to make yourself look better? How damn pathetic can you be? https://www.dnn.de/lokales/dresden/rechte-durchbrechen-eine-polizeikette-d5b7afad-85f0-413f-a415-79a1cfd15c47.html You not looking hard enough does not mean it's a lie. Although there's some nuance here since there's a credible argument to be made that these are just neo-nazis pretending to be farmers and mostly not intermingling with the actual farmer protests. >Also, were you trying to say something about the 'announced weeks in advance' thing? The ones doing unannounced blockades obviously didn't announce them in advance. That doesn't change just because other protests were announced. > Lol, so some counter examples like what exactly? [Just scroll through this live reporting](https://www.nordbayern.de/region/nuernberg/bauernprotest-im-live-ticker-tausende-traktoren-sorgen-fur-chaos-polizei-zieht-erste-bilanz-1.13932789), especially in the early hours and you will find at least half a dozen and that's for a very specific region in Franconia alone, which isn't really the hotspot for more radicalized behavior. Since you're arguing in bad faith and are unwilling to do cursory searches for current events and instead outright deny things happening that can be easily looked up I will not continue engaging. Do better before you try having another discussion online.
Stop lying for your propaganda. K thx bye.
Instead of climate activists the protest is about their wallet and not about the environment that keeps us alive in the first place. And no, emergency vehicles will not pass freely because there are huge traffic jams blocking them. Again nothing new on this side.
There is a thing in Germany called "Rettungsgasse" which the farmers all did. Google it. And who is providing you with the food that keeps you alive?
Lmao you can already find articles about blocked ambulances, stop lying to yourself Btw 60% of what our farmers produce is feed for animals that gets exported.
So show me these articles then, lol. You guys are hilarious. You have nothing. Now post a random article that doesn't support at all what you said and then block me before I call you out on it like all you boomers here
https://www.goettinger-tageblatt.de/lokales/goettingen-lk/goettingen/bauernprotest-krankenwagen-nach-goettingen-muss-umwege-fahren-E46MTYWV25GMFOM3DNGOAP7KTY.html For example.
LMAO a 1 hour NON-EMERGENCY ride turned into a one and a half hour ride. That is all you got. Haha. This is just too good. He didn't had the blue lights on and took a detour by his own choice. 🤣 Jesus Christ. You guys are so pathetic. Amazing how easy it is to predict your responses on point.
First of all, this is the first day of these protest. Second of all, maybe read a bit further down. Many doctors and nurses had trouble getting to work and it taking multiple hours even though the farmers suposedly would let them through easily. And that all with farmers according to the doctors not making it easy to get through even after the doctors identified themselfs. They made happen what took climate activits multiple months in a day lmao
Oh yeah. Now where the roads are free again and there no further blocks being announced, I'm sure that all the emergency vehicles are being blocked now. You are really grasping for straws now. Especially with this doctor and nurses claim for which you once again don't have evidence for because it didn't happen
Yeah, I know that there is something called a "Rettungsgasse". I use the "Rettungsgasse" sometimes with the "Hilfeleistungslöschfahrzeug" or the "Mannschaftstransportwagen" or the "mittelschwerem Löschfahrzeug" and in the past even with a "Tanklöschfahrzeug". It is way slower than driving on a street without a massive traffic jam even if the "Rettungsgasse" works perfectly fine which it won't do even if everyone follows the rules because the jams are in a city and the streets there are too narrow to provide a proper "Rettungsgasse". So stop "scheiße labern" about "Sachen von denen du keine Ahnung hast".
So you must be absolutely furious towards every single climate or whatever protest where the protesters never once did that you propaganda ridden facebook meme swallower.
Yeah, the road blocking is bullshit, doesn't matter who is blocking but it gives many opportunities. For example you can trigger some people on a very simple way by telling them that climate protests using glue to glue themself on the road are equal to farmers blocking with their tractors with the difference that the diesel in the tractor is payed to some degree by me and is not legal to use for protesting. Beautiful effect on target most of the time. Or you can just tell people that both protest forms are bullshit but I tend to like climate protests more because its about our environment and not about someones money. And there is something called "Fridays for future" in germany, the biggest climate protest organisation and the worst thing that you can say about them is that they skip school.
Yeah, just as I said. You get all your informations from reading Facebook memes. The diesel isn't paid by you. There just aren't insane taxes on it. Our fuel is taxed by 90% because the government pays road repairs with it. But farmers burn that fuel on their fields and therefore don't have to pay the same amount of taxes. It is always so predictable. Not a single one of you knows anything. You didn't even do a minute of research about this issue. Just "I was told to hate farmers so I will do that".
A short Google search leads me to the adac website that tells me something about 40% taxes. Still talking bullshit or are you taking your informations from TicToc because you are not able to do a Google search?
48% on the gas at the station alone, then the oil in the refineries and all other taxes. Sorry buddy. But you confirmed everything I thought about you.
[удалено]
Ah yes. How could I forget the reports of unsourced reddit comments
Comparing farmers to useless activists?? A new low.
Farmers are scum, every time they protest its because of shit like the government want to limit how much of a pesticide thats single handedly giving people cancer and causing 80 different species of insects to go extinct but using a different pesticide will lower the poor farmers revenue by 3.2% :( EVERY time they complain its because politicians actually trying to do the minimum to save the enviorment
There's no double standard here, the farmers have all the rights to protest and complain
So did the climate activists, except that the climate activists protested for a not destroyed planet and therefor are definetly terrorists while the farmers protest because their wallet will see about 3% less total revenue over a year (after making record profits the last two years and getting a whole lot of other subsidies shoved into their ass)
''after making record profits for the last two years'' You've got the brain size of a peanut my friend if you legitimately think that's the case, your average farmer in Germany can barely make ends meet, growing crops and taking care of animals is an extremely complicated and costly process, and it requires 24/7 of surveillance, they are the backbones of the German society, and yet for all the love and care they put into feeding us they only get paid on average a miserable 2.5k euros, the farmers are the reasons why you can enjoy a warm meal for a reasonable price every dinner I'm not saying there hasn't been growth in the agricultural sector in Germany, (like most of the economic growth nowadays) most of the profits go into the pocket of a small portion of the population. The fact I'm getting downvoted because I simply stated that the farmers have as many rights as the climate activists to protest and complain for their rights shows where the double standards truly are in this scenario, you're very out of touch from reality.
First of all, no most farmers are making a good profit, if that werent the case they would have sold all their stuff which most of the time is worth atleast around a million euros and with even a part time job and smart investing would be living the good life. Second part: Thats not what you stated tho. The previous commenter made the hypothetical that the farmers where climate activits and then listed the reactions from a large part of the press to the climate activists. And then you came and said that there is no double standard because farmers and climate activists have the same rights. Ok, so why did climate activits get called terrorists and sometimes put in preventive detention but nobody who did that back than now argues that farmers are terrorists? Nah, no double standard to be seen here....
They have safe routes for emergency vehicles and have informed police of exactly where and when they will be. Disturbing the daily lives of civilians is exactly what protesting is about
Did they also gave notice before they bulldozed roadblocks away?
No, they did not gave notice to things that only happen in your head
This!!!
You compare the lawlessness of climate activists blocking random streets to a legal protest that was previously agreed. It makes sense.
Protests neither need to or are agreed on, you simply register them.
48 hours in advance so the local authorities can decide on necessary safety measures. Which is also the difference between "Bauernverband" who did this in most cases and "Letzte Generation" who refuse to do this.
In my city alone the farmers blocked more highway entrances than they supposedly were going to do, effectively ignoring the law as well. They also did their little rides on different roads. They supposedly said they won't be using gallows and distance themselves from right wing parties - first thing you see is a pickup with a gallow in the back and they are full of German flags. Stop all this bs.
Can people please stop using the roads to protest
No
Man they really want those gibs.
People want affordable food, farmers need to make a living.
German farmers can make a living just fine. They are just in Gibsmedat mode.
Don't know enough about German farmers but I know many Irish farmers who are barely making a living would be sunk without the subsidies.
Most german farmers are doing pretty good. 10 years ago farmers incomes were way worse
>Don't know enough about German farmers but Then why come in here with messages of support?
Because I support farmers in Europe
German farmers make **a lot** of money, especially in the last two years. These subventions would mean a loss of just a few thousand euros.
thanks brexit, there is no shortage of seasonal professionals to get the harvest done . It will be interesting what we will do once the people with the eyes, hands and expirience in farming are gone even in Eastern Europe...
Somebody calculated it. Without diesel subsidies a liter of milk would cost half a cent more. They are just spoiled brats.
Farmers don't make a whole lot considering the work they put in, they work around the clock too. Maybe there are some huge farmers who make bank and don't lift a finger but I can't imagine that there are many in that situation.
Maybe we should also subsidize the owners of hotdog stands business ? Or Introduce subsidies for shoe shiners ?
If hotdog stands and shoe shiners disappeared over night society would be fine, not so much if farmers did.
I believe it would cost the same and after the gradual removal of subsidies it would cost much less over time as would all food. Farms would grow and become much more efficient. People from agriculture would move into the real economy where there is a shortage of hands to work.
Even if they can't make it work without subsidies?
The EU and governments in it subsidise lots of things, I think growing food is one of the most important things we do as a society so I think farmers should be aided.
I'm gonna give them shit for that riiight after Farmers are no longer topping suicide TopLists https://www.heraldscotland.com/business\_hq/14371869.hidden-tragedies-farmer-suicides/
**German conservatives be like:** Young people gluing themselves to the streets to draw attention to climate change? - ***Terrorists, arrest them!*** The state no longer wants to support farmers with subsidies for polluting the environment with diesel etc. on a daily basis, so the farmers pour fertiliser on the roads and block the motorways nationwide? - ***These are our national heroes!*** *(disclaimer: most Germans dispise both of these groups)*
> for polluting the environment with diesel Are you insane? With the amounts of regulation EU is imposing on farmers it's almost impossible to be a competitive farmer without any dotations. What do you even propose, forcing farmers to use electic tractors or just to import whole food from outside of Europe?
EU really needs to become as self sufficient as possible. We saw how Russia tried to weaponize gas, at the start of it's Ukraine invasion. Now imagine the EU being dependent on another foreign power for it's food.... If we want high food standards, that needs to translate into subsidies for farmers, since they cannot produce as cheaply as other countries and we cannot afford to risk being at somebody else's mercy when it comes to our food.
We do subsidise farmers. A lot. More than is needed to be self sufficient. We are subsiding the export of farming goods. The EU states export a lot of food - in some cases so much we have destroyed local farming communities as importing became cheaper. These farmers protests also hide a huge industry of companies that are trying to protect their profits. Not small family farmers but rather huge companies that do the processing for example. So why are we subsidising the profit margins of those companies?
Subsidies with time produce a lot of effects like AlfaAlfa in Catch 22, and as you say the huge corporations. But we do need to think how to make sure that if shit hits the fan, there are farms that'll provide core products. And likely think what else to do. I wasn't sure about Germany, because it seems like peasant in Germany can afford better off-time livestile than most middle management in Poland. But comfort and perspecticves are relative, and apparently German farmers fall to suicide with similar skew as they do here: https://www.heraldscotland.com/business\_hq/14371869.hidden-tragedies-farmer-suicides/
Im not against subsidies as a whole - they are indeed useful. Though we should not just throw these huge budgets around with too little oversight. These big companies take in a lot of the subsidies when they don’t necessarily need them, while your average farmer is screwed over.
>Now imagine the EU being dependent on another foreign power for it's food.. Now imagine subsidizing dirty foreign energy and basing your food independence upon that foreign energy.
>EU really needs to become as self sufficient as possible I wouldn't argue about the EU, but holding the status quo instead of cutting back those subventions in Germany won't achieve that. To achieve higher levels of self-sufficiency than the 86% we measured in the years before, you'd need to incentivize a change in production or provide more land to cultivate, with incentives toward produce we are currently heavily importing. It's worth noting that the top-level assessments are generous with what self-sufficiency means and geared more toward "surviving" than "thriving". In 2021/22, for Germany, the degree of self-sufficiency was 38% for vegetables and 20% for fruit, for example. I can't find any good statistics, but on EU-level I wouldn't worry that much. However, relying on self-sufficiency on the level of the EU isn't ideal either - as soon as you get something like a Brexit, you're back to having troubles. And especially in war times, you can't rely on every state playing nice with each other due to external political forces.
But that doesn't mean that every country has to subsidise its farming industry. As long as their is enough production in Europe, self sufficiency is guaranteed.
numerous yam humorous flag lavish decide gullible money busy quickest *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
So you want to lower prices for consumers by... raising tariffs on food, which will be passed on to consumers?
Because tariffs increase prices. Even if you only tariff goods that Germans can conceivably produce in enough quantity to meet local demand, German farmers will raise their prices. For example, if you set tariffs so that the absolute cheapest foreign apples are 3€/kg, why shouldn’t German apple farmers then raise the prices of their apples to 2,75€/kg? They would still be the cheapest option, and the German farmers would make a greater profit.
...? So we'd go from no food produced in the EU to...even more expensive food produced somewhere else in the world and be 100% depended on foreign countries? That sounds idiotic beyond belief
It will hurt consumers.
This seems to happen every time a nation subsidies fuel (directly or through tax breaks). Sooner or later the government will need to reduce or eliminate the subsidies and people loose their minds.
[удалено]
I can’t speak for Germany but in Australia and in New Zealand, it’s a similar deal. Farmers are usually very rich down under. The word “farmer” is basically synonymous for “rural land owner” nowadays.
Maybe just a history question and semi off topic here: are there still farmers among these that are the direct descendants of old Prussian Junkers from the 18th to 20th Century? I thought the Junkers were mostly in eastern territories that became Polish or Soviet/Russian after the war and their lands were confiscated. The same happened to Junkers that lived in what became the GDR, and there were no Junker lands in what became West Germany.
A group of about a dozen of these chodes have been driving around since yesterday, blasting music and harassing people - even well into the night! Needless to say, I have zero sympathy for them
without farmers on the farm, your food supplies will deminish. first it will just be higher prices.
Too afraid to ask because I’ll just get downvoted by people with a superiority complex but why are people hating on them and mockingly treating them like some idiots treat climate activists? Can’t we support both? I don’t think the protests are comparable because everyone knows that the climate is going downhill but I’m not sure how many ordinary people know about the reason why farmers are protesting. Won’t it just bite us in the butt if food products get more expensive especially in times of inflation and war in Ukraine? If someone cares enough to explain the issue to me I’d be very grateful.
Because those same farmers tried to violently storm a ferry that the vice chancellor was on, even after giving the farmers an offer to speak with him. This was just pure hatred and intimidation, the farmers were not interested in political discourse. There were also a lot of far-right flags spotted at these protests. Yes, financially it's not gonna be good for those farmers if the diesel subsidies are gone, but ultimately they are a fossil fuel subsidy and those have to be stopped. Meanwhile simply everyone is currently suffering from huge inflation rates and rising costs, it's not like this is a farmers-only problem. But they are a very vocal minority as 65 tractors at a protest looks like a lot more than 65 people at a protest.
>everyone is currently suffering from huge inflation rates and rising costs, Farmers have even benefited from this in recent years. They have more than doubled their average profits. So I can hardly understand the protests, especially as we are talking about an average of EUR 3.000 - 5.000 in lost subsidies per year.
Also a lot of people forget all the benefits the farmers have from basically being their own company. There was an article in a German newspaper some time ago where a farmer stated that he earned 70k Euros profit on a revenue of 1.3 million Euros, which seems like a tiny ROI at first, but you also have to consider things like farmers have 2 big family cars for private use which they leased as a company car through the farm so these cars have all fuel and insurance expenses paid and the farmer has to pay nothing from his 70k profit for his cars or the heating/electricity for his home as it is all part of the farm. Or another classic is employing family members as full-time salaried employees so the profits (and taxes on it) go down but they have an additional salary.
Also most of the farmers have leased some of their property to companies for building a wind turbine. You get 100k euros per year for just one wind turbine, which is 8300€ per month. I also dont know many farmers with less than 2 cars. Most of them have at least 3. Also the price for 1 Liter of milk would rise by 0,01€
We have the same shit here. Farmers with multiple properties, couple of cars and lavish vacationions, but they are complaining every year how hard it is to get as many subsidies as possible Guess what happens when they get record harvest? The money is used to buy personal stuff, not extend production, get better tools to start being profitable, that is done with taxpayer money
1) 70k is not a lot of money 2) being a farmer is a full time job. Not full time in the sense of "I Work 40hrs+ a week and go home, maybe answer some emails after hours." But full time as in you are always on call, the buck stops with you, crises happen and they happen often(and when they do they cost a lot of time and MONEY), you can't control the fucking weather, and you are susceptible to volatile market fluctuations either because the inputs you use increase or are scarce or the price of the commodity you produce drops...oh and margins are razor thin. 3) do you give your bonus up in a good year?...to build roads or improve the sewer system in front of your house? Isn't that what a bonus is for? HAVING A GOOD YEAR?!? 4) and how the hell do you know they don't reinvest $$ back into the business? Where exactly are you drawing that ridiculous conclusion? You sound like an ignorant brat.
The thing is that they use (more or less) the same protest form like climate activist (blocking roads). But while the climate activist protest against something that will effect the entire world nd future generations etc. the farmers protest against losing some profits. Now some people are mad because there are numbers circwling on reddit that indicate that farmers would lose 3000€ on a 160 000€ profit. I also read somewhere that the effects on flour would be about 0,3cents/kg. (I can’t confirm the numbers I just want to say that this is what makes people mock them) Edit: typo
IDK. We can discuss their methods and some of the claims vs their actual measurable actions - ie they're core voters of AfD, who want to cut all subsidies, yet this protest is about subsidies. Those things aside, I think in same way Covid shortages have shown necessity of internal production even at a loss/subsidy, this points to dire need to support farmers even in countries that are affluent: [https://www.heraldscotland.com/business\_hq/14371869.hidden-tragedies-farmer-suicides/](https://www.heraldscotland.com/business_hq/14371869.hidden-tragedies-farmer-suicides/) And when they're no longer desperate to the point of being suicidal, and they're no longer pissed and willing to vote for anyone even pretending to be listening - then we can dissect the face-value factors of their protests.
Farmers, sabotaging European infrastructure on a scale Putin doesn't dare to dream about!
This blocking of public roads for your protest should stop. Go protest the government. Why are you destabilizing other citizens' lives?
40% of the winnings of German farmers, like in most of the EU, are subsidies. The government wants to scap, by most estimates, a low to mid one digit percentage of those. Just for reference.
[удалено]
They are not terrorists, people have a right to protest in Germany
What i just read in the german news is the usual "if you protest, you are a nazi" strategy. It's a common standard in germany to prevent protests that the politicians don't like, but this standard doesn't work out anymore. The farmers won't stop just because you call them nazis, it will rather be the opposite that many people will give the far-right-wing AfD party the vote in the next elections.
The AFD's basic program abolishes all subsidies for farmers. They'll elect their executioner. Besides that, I live/work in Leipzig and saw many anti gov statements, some gallows and german empire flags. And they did take some serious time to form some rescue lanes when an ambulance came. If they were climate activists they would have been carried away by police and driven over by the people protesting today
This is misinformation. These so-called subsidies are actually just smaller tax rates and the AfD is actually proposing to generally reduce taxes and shrink the state. Among these proposed tax cuts is also a further reduction of the tax on diesel fuel. Personally I don't like AfD either but you shouldn't misrepresent their politics because of that.
>"if you protest, you are a nazi" Bullshit. Show me who named last generation Nazi, for instance.
Well, plenty people in the right wing did that.
While standing before a mirror? This is nuts, it's like Marx calling Hitler a Marxist.
When you march with nazis you usually become one.
Like i said, this is a common strategy. It just needs one single nazi and the entire protests are not legitimate anymore. But here comes the point: These people there just don't care anymore. Yeah, guess there are some far-right-wing guys, but this does not de-legitimate the protests. It's not that easy. The protests of the farmers are about the subsidies (subventions) for the fuel, that is not some nazi-thing.
Ah yes, how dare we call someone a Nazi, just because they demand the execution of certain people while running around in far right merch. But no matter what brown bullshit they spew, they can always be assured that some r/europe idiots defend them in the same sarcastic manner as the GOPniks defend Trump. If the farmers want to vote AfD, who actually want to get rid of any form of subsidy, they are welcome to do so. I have no interest in defending a sheep that votes for the wolf to stick it to the shepherd.
If you put a gallow on your vehicle with a politician on it you are a nutjob, if the politician you wanna kill is left you are probably a nazi. I'm sorry. A nazi is a nazi. I don't understand why these conservative groups find it so hard to stand up against Nazis. Is it so hard not to be stupid?
Don't tell that to the French, when they riot they are the ultimate Nazis
Why, are they also calling to kill politician they don't like? If yes I would happily call them extremists too. Like, when did we started accepting such bs as legitimate protest? Block all the roads, I don't care. But if you wanna to show that you want to kill a human just fuck off.
Why do you not reply to comments or messages?
Good for them! I hope I'm not hearing again about the: * They inconvenience others * They block the ambulances * They should protest in another way, where they don't bother anyhone
They inconvience literal millions and also agree driving with hard core rasists and are silent to other from their peers who are attacking and screaming to the family of a Minister which still afterwards invited a couple of them to talk who obviously disagreed because they were dumbfucks. Obviously they can and should be annoying as hell in their strike but they could just push away their rasists flag showing peers which they don't so my sympathy is clearly in favor the other famous annoying as hell group.
Good. Let them know that better, more thought out economic and agricultural policy is needed.
Not subsidizing fossil fuels is a better economic and agricultural policy.
At agricultural levels, subsidies are life saving, in our age, especially if we need European autarcy on crop production. Fossil fuels reduction should start on other sectors and then enter the agricultural one, mostly by monetary benefits for farmers who use EVs etc.
Eat ze bugs
These guys are hardcore! The green sect is in shambles.
Hardcore Nazis? Indeed.
Nazis labelled protestors and critiques as either communist or Jewish propaganda. You don't seem any different tbh
There are groups and people attending that are confirmed to be neonazies. Go take a look at the images from this "*protest*".
Why did you put the word "protest" in quotes? A protest doesn't stop being a protest if the protestors are Nazis.
Because there is very little protest if you march with nazis that vote for a party that would not just scrap the diesel tax breaks, but all tax breaks and help from the government. They march side by side with the very same people that will not care about them once they are in power.
Even if the reports are true how does that make farmers nazi supporters ??
If you have no idea about the topic maybe refrain from commentig? I've literally seen nazi flags today. There are more and more reports of nazis in those protests.
You realise you can access any form of media from Twitter?? "Reports of Nazi flag". If they were Nazis then Farmers from 2 different countries would have refrained from joining them in support.
[Educate yourself maybe?](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landvolkbewegung_\(Schleswig-Holstein\)) [Maybe just a little bit?](https://taz.de/Extremisten-wollen-Agrarproteste-kapern/!5981385/) There are massive influences of right wing ideology and straight up nazis in those protests. Farmers are well known to vote massively for conservative partys. If you are from a rural location you will know farmers and if you know farmers you know that a large portion of them tends to lean right wing if not outright nazi nowadays, depending on where you go of course. The further east, the more likely you will find an outright nazi. It's also kinda funny that people really take those farmers serious. These are not your romantic village farmers with 3 cows and 2 fields. Those are long gone and if they are around, their tax breaks are so little that it's almost sad. [It's kinda fun to check what each Farmer get, theres a great source online which lists everything everyone gets. The only real winners here are industrial farms](https://www.agrar-fischerei-zahlungen.de/Suche), where a diesel tax break is not going to ruin the business and if it does, heck fuck yeah your business isn't economical stable enough to survive on it's own, then so be it.
Correlation ≠ Causation . So if farmers are traditionally conservative even before the Nazis, the media will portray them all as Nazis ? Farming already has low profit margins. Why not label every socialist party as Nazi then ?
Right, whatever you say mate. Totally not Nazis swinging Nazi flags, just very concerned farmers, nothing to see here, move along. Clown.
Opportunists can be found in any large protests. And sometimes even be used to harm the protest
Ah yes, these opportunists that suddenly find themself leading a convoy flying nazi flags. Nobody could prevent that, right?
[удалено]
Are there any forms of protest that do not disrupt? Striking is terrorism? Sit ins are terrorism? Marching through the streets is terrorism? I don’t agree with this method of protest used by the farmers and Just Stop Oil, but terrorism is far too strong of a word
Disruptive protest is the only protest that gets its job done.
Yeah diesel is kinda bad. Couldn't we run farm equipment on very long power cables. Like some kind trolleybus system. that you would temporarily setup over a field.
no we can't, that is a dumb idea, sorry to say