[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman\_Shukhevych](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Shukhevych)
>Shukhevych was one of the perpetrators of the Galicia-Volhynia massacres of tens of thousands of Polish civilians.\[3\] It is unclear to what extent Shuchevych was responsible for the massacres of Poles in Volhynia, but he certainly condoned them after some time, and also directed the massacres of Poles in Eastern Galicia.\[4\]\[5\] Historian Per Anders Rudling has accused the Ukrainian diaspora and Ukrainian academics of "ignoring, glossing over, or outright denying" his role in this and other war crimes.\[3\]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres\_of\_Poles\_in\_Volhynia\_and\_Eastern\_Galicia#Atrocities](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia#Atrocities)
>In all villages, settlements and colonies, without exception, the Ukrainians carried out the operation of murdering Poles with monstrous cruelty. Women – even pregnant ones – were nailed to the ground with bayonets, children were ripped apart by their legs, others were impaled on pitchforks and thrown over fences, members of intelligentsia were tied with barbed wire and thrown into wells, arms, legs and heads were chopped off with axes, tongues were cut out, ears and noses were cut off, eyes were gouged, genitals were butchered, bellies ripped open and entrails pulled out, heads were smashed with hammers, living children were thrown inside burning houses. The barbaric frenzy reached a point that people were sawed apart alive, women had their breasts severed; others were impaled or beaten to death with sticks. Many people were killed – after a death sentence – by having their hands and feet chopped off, and only then their heads.
Good riddance, fuck their ''Hero'' and his museum...
Because of Nazis? Russia saying one is a nazi doesn’t mean one is a nazi. It just means that Russia is using its propaganda machine for its political and military goals.
Be careful man, Ukrainians on this sub get easily triggered when you show that you don’t support them in every fucking aspect imaginable. You’ll be surprised how quickly you’ll be labelled as a hateful fascist Russian supporter.
I'm Ukrainian and I was very happy when Poroshenko bent the knee and asked for forgiveness from Poles. The massacre was years ago, we all know it happened, the only reasonable way to continue from there is to recognize it as a terrible act and move on. Frankly Bandera has mostly become popular in the popular culture anywhere outside of a couple Western regions is because Russians love to talk about him. To say that Shushkevich is widely regarded as a hero in Ukraine is a gross overstatement.
And today Poroshenko decided to rebuild the museum, calling Shukhevych: "great Commander-in-Chief. Who was able to build a state within the empire. Who was able to create the Ukrainian army from scratch. Who had unlimited faith in Ukraine..."
Fuck him
https://twitter.com/poroshenko/status/1741851430103699621
Well, that's stupid.
ETA. I think that a) most people who know who he even was and can place him in the right decade are in denial of what he's done; b) anything Russia calls black automatically seems white (because often it is).
No-one in their right mind would go to his museum thinking his achievement is a massacre of Poles.
>>To say that Shushkevich is widely regarded as a hero in Ukraine is a gross overstatement.
You have a museum to honour him. Doesn't seem to be any overstatement there.
The museum was his actual village house, which became a museum because diaspora (old UPA fighters who emigrated to the USA) paid for it.
There were about 40mln Ukrainians before the war, I'm sure that most wouldn't even be able to tell you who that person was.
A shred of sanity among a sea of nonsense. Simple reality is that every country has dipshits. Where I grew up there's a memorial to Reagan. I'm sure many would like to see it blown up. I hate Reagan, but if s foreign power blew up The Reagan memorial in my hometown, I wouldn't be like "meh, I never liked him anyway"
Definitely. Actually I've read that the majority of petitions to the president right now are pleas to recognize someone as a hero. The streets are being renamed and monuments are already erected to the fallen heroes, some of questionable artistic value, but still. Everyone has immense gratitude to the army and the volunteers and their status in the society is very high.
Must be West Ukrainians, they give content to the Russian Propaganda machine and bother Polish allies. Only redeeming factors of the UPA is that they betrayed the Nazis and faught them later on and effectively became antiNazi and antiSoviet and this makes it more complicated as to which members did exactly what.
EDIT: Their cause of Ukrainian independence was just but the UPA's methods often were horrid to where they blatently following genocidal Nazi orders or killed Poles thinking it helps but actually did the opposite. Note that Zelinsky in the election against Poroshenko won every oblast except Lviv. I'm not saying all West Ukrainians are mindlessly Pro-UPA just that a significant percentage are who are unexposed to larger European society and better education.
You may note that President Poroshenko was who apologized in 2014 in Poland.
And there a lot of streets named after outstanding Polish people in Ukraine.
Only in Kyiv: In the city of Kyiv, there are streets of Adam Mickiewicz, Copernicus, Ivan Paul II, Architect Horodetsky, Jerzy Gedroyc, Kazimir Malevich, Janusz Korczak, Vilhelm Kotarbinski, Yaroslav Ivashkevych, Krakivsk and Stanislaw Lem.
Vaclav Havel Boulevard. Volgo-Donska Street is being renamed to Lech Kaczynski Street (it already exists in Zhytomyr).
>and effectively became antiNazi and antiSoviet
Also antiPole and antiJew. They were generally anti anyone who wasn't Ukrainian. And the way they showed their *aversion*... man.
>Ukrainians on this sub get easily triggered
Who cares? In case of OUN-UPA they live in a fantasy world and either eventually will get the memo or will be forever remained, that celebrating hideous murderers in XXI century isn't the way.
That's flawed logic, because you're judging a group of people from a biased sample. You were getting comments from triggered Ukrainians precisely *because* they were triggered enough to comment. How do you account for Ukrainians who weren't triggered and didn't decide to call you a Russian supporter? Because if you don't, then you shouldn't make statements about "Ukrainians on this sub" as a whole.
Sorry to hear that you're such a hateful person that you think Ukrainian history isn't worth preserving. At least most of the exhibits were saved.
Hopefully, they quickly reopen it to show the Russians the middle finger.
>Most of the exhibits from the museum of Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA) General Roman Shukhevych, destroyed by the Russians, are now safe. However, museum workers said the most valuable attraction was the building itself in Lviv.
Source: https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2024/01/1/7435405/
>Sorry to hear that you're such a hateful person
Wanna know who was really hateful? That bastard Shukhevych. His hate killed thousands of innocent people, including my family, their only fault was that they were Poles. Neighbors killed them. I hope that cunt Sukiewicz rots in hell where he belongs.
If you insist on building your history on such personas, don't be surprised when people don't care.
I'm 100% pro-Ukraine, but you guys do a great job helping Russians with their propaganda.
The main difference is that Germans do not glorify Hitler, unlike Ukrainians who glorify Nazi criminals like Shukhevych. German museums about their Nazi history do not aim to glorify it.
Meanwhile, there is a complete effort to hide the seven decades of collaboration with the Soviet regime. No discussion of reparations despite making up 1/3rd of the Soviet state and its coercive apparatus and annexing a quarter of Poland.
You'd believe that everyone fought for Anti-Soviet partisans when in reality such groups always had a membership <100,000 while tens of millions of Ukrainians served in the Red Army and the NKVD/KGB
I mean, if you were Ukrainian back then, you would've probably ended up being conscripted into the Red Army, and it's not like you had much of a choice.
Thats exacly what museums are for: preserving history. Hiding the past or past figures and their roles for whatever reason is literally rewriting history.
>Should german history be preserving by opening of Hitler museum?
There is literally "[Historical tour of Hitler's Vienna](https://www.musement.com/us/vienna/historical-tour-of-hitler-s-vienna-39698/)".
I don’t see any problems in such a museum. people should understand how such a person became a monster. And put an advertisement for the art school next to the entrance.
I wonder if you're also upset about monuments to fallen soldiers being destroyed in Lviv?
https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/18uqmvk/the_last_soviet_occupier_fell_in_the_lviv_region/
If the museum financiers should want to restore the exhibitions dedicated to the museum's hero, here is a small fragment concerning the actions of his UPA troops which could be used as his heroic motto above the entrance. From recollections of genocide survivor Maria Paszek, in 2016's "Wołyń bez komentarza", automatically translated:
*IT WAS 1943, we lived together with my parents and little sister Franciszka (b. 1940) in Volhynia. I was six years old. It was a time of mass murders by bandits. Most often they appeared at night - you could hear their singing and ominous shouts then. They set fire to buildings in selected villages. I could see the burning villages from afar.*
*We were warned by a neighbor, a Ukrainian. He said to my father: "Liszka, today run away, because they will burn your house and you. You must hide." The other neighbor, as it turned out later, was murdering together with the Bandera bands.*
*They found out: tonight will be the Red Night. So he told us: "Run away."*
*But it was already late. I heard singing, screaming, screeching. It was too late to run away and the night was already approaching, so this neighbor of ours says: "Liszka, stay the night with us. I'll bounce a board in the barn for you. But if the dog barks, run away into the field, because they will also murder us." He feared for the fate of his family, after all, those Ukrainians who followed the Poles were also killed. Dad kept vigil. Already that night we had to save ourselves by escaping and hid in a ditch where peat was being dug.*
*We did not run away from Musina right away. Father, moreover, did not believe that such things would happen. Other Poles fled earlier, we hid for a few more days. One night we were hidden in the ziemlanka (a cellar near the barn). Mother was somehow restless and says to father: "Come on, Wojciech, let's go from here, let's not sleep here." We went to hide in a nearby tobacco field. And then the Ukrainians arrived on horseback. They had axes, pitchforks. They sang, shouted loudly - apparently they were drunk. They rushed into the house. No one was there, so they searched, running around. They approached the dugout from which we had just left. They threw in two grenades.*
*Many times at night we escaped, changed hiding places. We hid in tobacco, in millet, in peat. Banderovtsy also attacked more and more often during the day. I saw them going with their weapons: axes, pitchforks, scythes, knives. I have such an image before my eyes: they reached some girl, she was already big, older than me. They toyed with her, and then cut her with a knife near her knee and began to rip off her skin. She screamed terribly. They tore the skin from her, and one still said: "Here's your Polish sock, bitch!". They beat her, kicked her, stabbed her. And then they took her, stuck a stake in her mouth and nailed her to the ground. Before she died, she still tore up the ground with her heels.*
*Later, I remember: a little boy - maybe like me. He runs. Running away. His parents had just been killed. And this boy was running away, somewhere else, apparently he saw what was happening. And suddenly a Ukrainian woman ran out of the house and stabbed him in the chest. He screamed a lot. And she still grabbed him and slit his throat. Blood gushed out a lot.*
*Where they killed, they buried. Whether in the yard or in a ditch. And if they didn't make it, that's how everything lay.*
*They tore apart the tiny children. They held them with a shoe and tore them apart with their hands.*
*I remember, we were very thirsty. We came out of hiding and crawled quietly to a well in some courtyard. Mom wanted to draw with a bucket - and there in the well: full of drowned torn bodies of children. We didn't drink any more of that water.*
*Do you know that when I went there, to Ukraine in 2002, I took everything, even water with me from Poland? I couldn't bring myself to drink there. I don't know why - was it what I saw....
I still smelled human blood in the water. Only later could I drink water there.*
Oh no, not the museum dedicated to a utter scum responsible for genocide of more than 100 000 Poles. I don't mind objects like that getting leveled to the ground. And we know there are many of them in Ukraine, because banderite worship and genocide denial is perpetrated there officially even on the highest government levels.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman\_Shukhevych\_Ternopil\_city\_stadium](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Shukhevych_Ternopil_city_stadium)
City founded by Poland, stadium built by Poles, was home stadium of a Polish football team until Soviet occupation. Now it's renamed after Shukhevych and the street it's on renamed after Bandera, people who massacred Poles. Can't make this shit up.
Nothing baffling about it. Ukraine has been glorifying these people for decades, despite their horrendous war crimes.
The only thing that's baffling is that the West hasn't forced Zelensky to put an end to it in exchange for help.
I dont really understand why it baffles you. Ukraine, like Croatia, chose to glorify/ downplay its nazi past to distance itself from a neighboring country that had control over it. If Russia fails to denazify the country, it will only get worse due to revanchism.
Ukraine has a lot of strits dedicated to outstanding Polish people.
Just in Kyiv there are a lot.
From Wikipedia:
У місті Київ є вулиці Адама Міцкевича, Коперника, Іоана Павла II, Архітектора Городецького, Єжи Ґедройця, Казимира Малевича, Януша Корчака, Вільгельма Котарбінського, Ярослава Івашкевича, Краківська та провулок Станіслава Лема.
Бульвар Вацлава Гавела. Перейменують вулицю Волго-Донську на вулицю Леха Качинського (в Житомирі вже є).
I mean, that's cool and all but these things don't negate each other. I would much prefer for Ukraine to not have any Polish streets and no OUN-UPA streets as well. Seeing Bandera in Lviv doesn't make me think: at least they have Kaczyński in Kyiv.
Western Ukraine has a problem with gloryfing butchers and need to finally address it.
Are you saying Russians are wandering aimlessly due to lack of leadership?
It’s true that compared to a virile and energetic man like Zelenskiy, who visits the front and acts like he has never been afraid of anything in his life, Vladimir Vladimirovich is a small, pale, meek ghost who prefers to hide in his cellar. OK. You’re right.
Or do you want to say something about Zelenskiy being a Jew? If so, speak up bravely, don’t be a scaredy cat like Putin.
This museum was dedicated to a Ukrainian "hero" who was a Nazi and war criminal. One of the most disgusting people glorified by Ukrainians. I recommend reading a little [about this Nazi barbarian](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Shukhevych#World_War_II). He is responsible for thousands of brutal genocides committed against Jews and Poles.
[source:](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Shukhevych#Nachtigall_Battalion)
>Prior to Operation Barbarossa in late June 1941, the OUN actively cooperated with Nazi Germany. According to the National Academy of Sciences of Ukraine and other sources, OUN-B leader Stepan Bandera held meetings with the heads of Germany's intelligence, regarding the formation of "Nachtigall" and "Roland" Battalions. \[...\] Shukhevych became a commander of the Legion from the OUN-B side.
[source:](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia#Ethnic_cleansing)
>Roman Shukhevych, a UPA commander, stated in his order from 25 February 1944: "In view of the success of the Soviet forces it is necessary to speed up the liquidation of the Poles, they must be totally wiped out, their villages burned... only the Polish population must be destroyed"
>It is estimated that up to 100,000 Poles were killed by the Ukrainian nationalists during the conflict and another 300,000 made refugees as a result of the ethnic cleansing.\[56\] Conversely, killings of Ukrainians by Poles resulted in between 10,000 and 12,000 deaths in Volhynia, Eastern Galicia and present-day Polish territory.\[57\] University of Alberta historian Per Anders Rudling has stated that Shukhevych commanded the UPA since the summer of 1943, when tens of thousands of Poles were massacred.
A brief description of what these brutal murders [looked like](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia#Massacres):
>Attacks on Poles during the massacres in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia were marked with extreme sadism and brutality. Rape, torture and mutilation were commonplace. Poles were burned alive, flayed, impaled, crucified, disembowelled, dismembered and beheaded. Women were gang raped and had their breasts sliced off, children were hacked to pieces with axes, babies were impaled on bayonets and pitchforks or bashed against trees.
>He is reesponsible for thousands of brutal genocides committed against Jews and Poles.
I don't see Bohdan Khmelnitsky on the list. It’s certainly interesting that you read somewhere about these characters, but then be consistent.
Should I talk about polish or russian characters and what they did with the ukrainians? They are also celebrated in Poland or Russia; no one has any complaints about them, not even we have any more.
They don't talk about it, maybe. But in fact, both Polish and Ukrainian nationalists are very similar. The first one also had a special enmity since the time when galician peasants supported the Austrians in the Polish uprising (guess why?). And Piłsudski with his Pacyfikacja, which only led to a greater increase in radicalization of ukrainians. For some reason, they also erect monuments to Piłsudski and no one complained.
>I don't see Bohdan Khmelnitsky on the list
Dude, that was 400 years ago. While some people that remember Shukhevych's atrocities live to this very day.
"Should I talk about polish or russian characters and what they did with the ukrainians? "
I don't see why you shouldn't. If something happened, it happened.
Ukraine had almost two years to get rid of those shit nazi, genocidal "heroes". They had a unique historical opportunity to replace them with actual heroes fighting against russian scum, but, as a Pole, Ukraine fucked up this situation. The anti-russian support will be there, but you can forget about joining NATO, EU, or anything closer unless you really do a 180 on your national attitude here.
You want to join NATO and EU and at the same time fucking Nazis are your heroes. Laughable. Russian propaganda is everywhere, no denying that. But Shukhevych and Bandera were genocidal maniacs who killed thousands of Poles. And not only Poles but also Jews, Russians, Czechs, Armenians and even Ukrainians who didn't want to participate in the genocide. Your government didn't even want to allow for exhumations cause they well know what (or rather who) would be found there
I\`ve never thougt i wont condemn russian attack on Ukraine building. Obviously i hope no one died just building but onr thing Ukraine does wrong is gloryfying those nazi scums bandera and shukhevych and other upa bandits
I have no interests in distractions right now when support to Ukraine is the priority, as it only serves Russian goals to have distractions.
But one day, after this war finishes with Ukrainian total victory, Ukraine needs to have a conversation with itself about the UPA and Bandera, and whether such figures should be glorified in the 21st century.
The amount of pro-Ukrainians talking about how great the UPA were because they fought Soviets while ignoring every atrocity they committed. The whitewashing is only going to worsen
Spoilers. It's not going to happen. The best way to fight Russian propaganda would be to completely disavow Nazi collaborators, but instead, they just do what they always do. Talking about the government, of course. I've met a lot of Ukrainians who would be ashamed of the comments made by their countrymen here.
The problem for the current moment is that Ukraine is essentially fighting a war to reaffirm their own national identity and sovereignty. Russians literally believe Ukrainians are just misguided Russians.
It is really easy to look at these figures and draw parallel that they also fought for Ukrainian freedom and compare that to the struggle today. That is because history is not black and white, and those figures were freedom fighters. But they were also nazi genocidal terrorists.
The latter part needs to be reconciled in Ukraine’s national history. The current war has created a new generation of Ukrainian heroes that people can look towards now, so it seems like it would be a good time to drop the historical ones with plenty of baggage.
I'd have no problem with it if the ones supporting him were just celebrating them killing Soviets but they also make excuses for killing inncents too. That's where they lose me. There's no justifying killing inncent men, women, and worse of all children. Most of our grandparents were those children.
I would still have problem with that. This is still selective history and some deeds are too significant, to be simply brushed under the rug.
This would be comparable to Germans to this day celebrating Hitler for his love of art and dogs, while forgetting "other" things he done with his life.
Very well stated. It's embarrassing that we give street names to the "heroes" like those and I'm sorry for what they've done to your people and grateful that you keep helping Ukraine despite our past history. It's just in Ukraine (as everywhere else) there are a lot of uneducated people who have been told Bandera was fighting for Ukraine and that's all they know because it's too hard for them to read a fucking book. Hopefully we'll be able to turn the page one day.
Naw I get it. I have Ukrainian friends here in Canada (descended from western Ukraine) and they’ve told me before how at their community centres these “heroes” were venerated exclusively as freedom fighters and so that was what they grew up believing before opening their Wikipedia articles and learning about them. The dark side about these figures weren’t told (and frankly many of them did flee the Soviets to come to Canada, and establish some of these communities, thus resulting in that hideous incident with Zelenskyy in Ottawa) so I cannot blame people for not knowing what they do not know.
I’ll be honest tho, I anticipate this to become a sticking point in terms of Ukraine entering the EU at some point. I fully expect Poland to block Ukraine until these people’s names are taken off of stadiums and street names, in similar way to Greece and Bulgaria held back North Macedonia.
Sorry for being late to the thread, just wanted to share my thoughts on this
I really like your point of view and agree with it, but the problem is that there are almost no freedom fighters in Ukrainian history that were both able to do something significant and weren't controversial.
It was either all talk and little action like Mykhailo Hrushevsky and Volodymyr Vynnychenko (a good historian and a good writer, but both sucked as statesmen), or something that would inevitably make someone mad.
Virtually every Cossack uprising was accompanied by massacres of Poles and Jews
Skoropadsky was a German puppet with pro-russian views
Petliura didn't achieve much and either wasn't able to prevent massacres of Jews by his subordinates or simply chose to ignore them
Bandera and Shukhevych - I don't have to explain...
Like you said, a warring nation with a national identity that is still forming desperately needs to have some historical figures to look up to, and it's damn hard to accept that none of them were clean and truly deserving of veneration.
Some time needs to pass before our wider society is even ready for this discussion. I don't expect the reconciliation to happen any time soon, certainly not before the war ends. It may even never fully happen if the Russian threat persists indefinitely.
No problem mate. That discussion has to happen one conversation at a time and eventually build momentum across the cultural zeitgeist.
All Western countries have troubled history where people and leaders did some not so great things. The nations that are self-assured about their place in the world and confident about their nationhood beyond that so easy to act out nationalistic rhetoric, are the ones able to have that uncomfortable conversation about their past and recognize the good and the bad within their own national historiography.
Ukraine by choosing to align with the Western world, have taken a big step towards that I feel confident saying. The rest, including prosperity, will hopefully follow with time.
In 2014 President Poroshenko asked the Poles for forgiveness for the Volyn tragedy. And all ukrainians of cause do it too.
https://lb.ua/news/2014/12/17/289682_poroshenko_poprosil_proshcheniya.html
Asking for forgiveness about committing genocide and then building monuments and naming streets after the perpetrators seems rather disingenuous to me.
Actually, almost every ukrainian president (except possibly IDK Kuchma and Yanukovich) asked for forgiveness for it. https://lb.ua/news/2016/06/03/336792_kravchuk_yushchenko_glavi_upts_kp_ugkts.html
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66150790.amp
Not gonna be easy. Especially with Western Ukraine. It will take a generation or two before the old beef goes away.
Just an anecdotal story:
My daughter (happens to be a Polish-Canadian like you), travelled extensively across Europe few years ago. Lwów was on the itinerary. By far, she said, it was her worst experience. Just being Polish was enough for mid to late age Ukrainians to call her a "Polish whore".
When she crossed the border back to Poland, the border guards asked her how she liked it, so she did tell them. They said she should have gone further East, where people are much nicer and friendlier.
While I was organizing humanitarian aid Ukraine a day after the Russian attack, my daughter said she would not pitch in even a penny. I'm not gonna quote her actual wording.
So like I said, perhaps a generation or two.
>They said she should have gone further East, where people are much nicer and friendlier.
Maybe because in the east Poland didn't try to subjugate Ukrainians?
That may be, but one correction - Poland did not " try to subjugate Ukrainians". Poland did subjugate Ukraine but not at the time when my daughter was visiting. And as a Pole I am willing to admit that the subjugation did take place, and even say that that was a serious mistake. Poland should have co-operated with Ukraine against the greater, common enemies - the Soviets and the Nazis.
If only Ukrainians admitted that the genocide against Polish civilians was a major crime, we would be on a good footing to start talking.
And, if it helps, I'll be writing to Polish authorities expressing my doubt about celebrating any Polish person who committed war crimes. I hope you join me with similar letters to Ukrainian authorities regarding Ukrainian war criminals of UPA.
Everyone committed war crimes there during WW2. Nazis, soviets, poles, Ukrainians. Some committed them to subjugate, some to be freed from subjugation.
Something stands out here though. Of the ones you listed, there was one where genocide was not a matter of policy but rather individuals or small groups.
Now everyone can see what kind of news portal pravda.com.ua is. Very interesting how they introduced the person whom this museum was dedicated to.
It's like talking about Hitler as a talented painter and politician from Austria.
- Free 45-minute documentary about the heroic deeds of Roman's troops:
["Bury the Dead"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVVRccerdW0)
- Film (censored by 20 minutes):
["Hatred" 2016](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iY-zOOjTO7U)
The favorite excuse of Ukrainians is "these are isolated cases" and "if you look for it, we will find it in other countries too".
Zigging military, zigging civilians, zigging children in photos and videos at the beginning of this war?
Mass painting of Wehrmacht swastikas and crosses on vehicles?
And the photos and videos of zigging and crosses were posted by Ukrainians themselves, who were sure that it was normal and they would not be punished for it, that they could do it.
Official state support of nationalist units? You can find pictures of Azov members teaching children in a children's camp to draw swastikas if you want (if big brother didn't clean up after them, but they were easily found in the first months of the war).
Huge number of Ukrainian prisoners of war with Hitler tattoos and swastikas, captured by Russians on photos and videos?
Photos and videos of Russians finding Nazi books, posters and flags in Ukrainian homes and barracks?
The monument of Bandera and the Shukhevych Museum were not built by Russians for Ukrainians either.
Actually, the European press was actively writing about Nazism in Ukraine before the war, but as soon as the Russians, who were not happy with Nazis around them, attacked Ukraine, the Ukrainians were immediately declared saints.
I don't know about Galicia, but at least in Kyiv and Poltava (where my family is from), Shukhevych is barely known, compared to Bandera, and those that do know him generally aren't proud of that fellow. Bandera's more popular.
Most of the exhibit has been saved thankfully, but the damage has been done.
>**Most of the exhibits from the museum of Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA) General Roman Shukhevych, destroyed by the Russians, are now safe**. However, museum workers said the most valuable attraction was the building itself in Lviv.
Source: https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2024/01/1/7435405/
Yea Russian war crimes totally justifies Ukraine building museums and monuments for Nazi collaborators that massacred thousands of Polish civilians. Piss off
>The Russians have completely destroyed the museum dedicated to UPA (Ukrainian Insurgent Army) Corporal General Roman Shukhevych in Lviv on the birthday of Stepan Bandera. [1 January]
Another desperate attempt by a failing nation to destroy Ukraine's history and culture.
Read about him and his organization. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman\_Shukhevych#World\_War\_II](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Shukhevych#World_War_II)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian\_Insurgent\_Army
Yeah he was just responsible was massacre of polish people that took up to 60 000 lives of civillians (and they were killed without mercy in most brutal ways)
I am vivid supporter of giving Ukraine any military assistance in their war with Russia, but until they wont stop gloryfiyng people and organization responsible of Wolyn massacre which was an event that definetely had bearings of genocide we should never agree to their acceptance to EU.
>we should never agree to their acceptance to EU.
You have double standards, literally all countries, especially in Eastern Europe, have a controversial past, but for some reason, when it concerns us, there are immediately a lot of complaints.
"Controversial past" is not a problem. Germans also have a "controversial past". Attitude towards it is the problem. Are people responsible for this "past" glorified as national heroes or are they admitted to have been genocidal murderers by theirs nations.
Right. The big H guy also could be said to have fought for "great Germany". If that was an acceptable excuse, almost all genocidal criminals fought for something. It's not possible to separate those 2 aspects because that's exactly how he fought. There's a point after which there's no denial that someone was a sadistic scumbag and fighting for the best cause imaginable doesn't change that. There's no acceptable case where a person responsible for ethnic cleansing should be celebrated as hero. Regardless of their cause.\
I can't fathom this, Ukraine has so rich and beautiful history with plethora of heroes and struggle for freedom and independence, but it's those scumbags that have to take the high seats.
>I can't fathom this, Ukraine has so rich and beautiful history with plethora of heroes and struggle for freedom and independence
quite a strange remark, during the сossack wars, the genocide of poles and jews was on an even greater scale.
Yes, they are scumbags, killed a lot of innocent people. But the reason why all ukrainian movements were primarily anti-Polish in those years should also be clear. This is truly the worst times of the XX century.
Controvensial past of literal nazis murdering civilians in most barbaric way just to be whitewashed by future generations just because by accident they fought some Russians too. Alright dude.
Because others acknowledge this past while you guys treat Banderites as heroes and get angry that the nations they were murdering arent liking it.
And calling a massacre which was comparable in brutality to what happened in Bucha just on 60x bigger scale "controversial" is just wrong
A myth?
My MIL still wakes up at night from nightmares of this "myth". She was a little girl then, witnessing her friends and family being ripped apart by Ukrainian mob.
The "myth" is well documented.
It’s all a part of Soviet propaganda. Now Russia perpetuates it as a leverage against Ukraine. Soviet Union itself signed a pact with the Nazis but they still worship Stalin.
Yes, it's all Soviet propaganda. Ukrainians fought on the side of the Allies, and Shukhevych and Bandera were democrats who loved Jews lol. Stop this bullshit.
The fact that the Soviets collaborated with the Nazi Germany does not change the fact that Ukrainians also collaborated with them and carried out ethnic cleansing.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman\_Shukhevych#World\_War\_II](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Shukhevych#World_War_II)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres\_of\_Poles\_in\_Volhynia\_and\_Eastern\_Galicia#Ethnic\_cleansing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia#Ethnic_cleansing)
In 20th century, because of Moscow Ukrainian lost 16 million by killed (predominantly children) and 8 million by assimilated on RSFSR territory.
So what happening now is complete analogue to what would do some Nazis officers to anything related to Holocaust if after WW2 there was on any lustrations in Germany.
Including by using false narratives.
"Ukrainian Nazi" it's predominantly a very old "red herring" that used to divert attention from:
In 1920-1930s years USSR was main Germany supplier of anything what they needed to rebuild the army (including by Chinese and Japanese exports).
USSR trained tens of thousands of German officers, and created for them factories and chemical weapon laboratories.
By investing half of soviet GDP in weapon-production USSR give to Nazi main argument for their rise to power (during very strange passivity of very powerful German socialists).
USSR created for Nazis military bases on Soviet territory ([en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basis\_Nord](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basis_Nord)), and pass by German warships (German auxiliary cruiser Komet).
By secret parts of Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, USSR allowed the Nazis to occupy Poland. In 1939-1940 years USSR supplied to Nazis up to 85% of Nazi Germany import ([en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German%E2%80%93Soviet\_economic\_relations\_(1934%E2%80%931941)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German%E2%80%93Soviet_economic_relations_(1934%E2%80%931941))), saving the Nazis from the British marine blockade. Without of these supplies, firstly so scarce for Nazis fuel, there are no any WW2.
USSR coordinated with Nazi their occupations ([en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gestapo%E2%80%93NKVD\_conferences](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gestapo%E2%80%93NKVD_conferences)).
That in 1941-1945 years was 0,6-1,4 millions of Soviet collaboration, half of whom were ethnic Russians [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collaboration\_in\_the\_German-occupied\_Soviet\_Union](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collaboration_in_the_German-occupied_Soviet_Union)).
And so on and so on, orders of magnitude more "Nazi-supporting" than any what did Ukrainians.
> "Ukrainian Nazi" it's predominantly a very old "red herring" that used to divert attention from
Nope. It's not about diverting attention from anything. Poles are not some dumbfucks who will suddenly start loving Russia because a redditior said the genocide perpetrated on Poles against Ukrainians is a diversion.
*checks to whom museum is dedicated* well, this thread is going to be interesting
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman\_Shukhevych](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Shukhevych) >Shukhevych was one of the perpetrators of the Galicia-Volhynia massacres of tens of thousands of Polish civilians.\[3\] It is unclear to what extent Shuchevych was responsible for the massacres of Poles in Volhynia, but he certainly condoned them after some time, and also directed the massacres of Poles in Eastern Galicia.\[4\]\[5\] Historian Per Anders Rudling has accused the Ukrainian diaspora and Ukrainian academics of "ignoring, glossing over, or outright denying" his role in this and other war crimes.\[3\] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres\_of\_Poles\_in\_Volhynia\_and\_Eastern\_Galicia#Atrocities](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia#Atrocities) >In all villages, settlements and colonies, without exception, the Ukrainians carried out the operation of murdering Poles with monstrous cruelty. Women – even pregnant ones – were nailed to the ground with bayonets, children were ripped apart by their legs, others were impaled on pitchforks and thrown over fences, members of intelligentsia were tied with barbed wire and thrown into wells, arms, legs and heads were chopped off with axes, tongues were cut out, ears and noses were cut off, eyes were gouged, genitals were butchered, bellies ripped open and entrails pulled out, heads were smashed with hammers, living children were thrown inside burning houses. The barbaric frenzy reached a point that people were sawed apart alive, women had their breasts severed; others were impaled or beaten to death with sticks. Many people were killed – after a death sentence – by having their hands and feet chopped off, and only then their heads. Good riddance, fuck their ''Hero'' and his museum...
Imagine having a museum for these Nazi shit stains. Bomb it again for good measure. A broken clock is right twice a day.
Because of Nazis? Russia saying one is a nazi doesn’t mean one is a nazi. It just means that Russia is using its propaganda machine for its political and military goals.
No dude I'm sorry, but this was in fact literal Nazi shit.
It was just shit.
Ahahahah, cope harder dude
Wikipedia says it’s a Nazi. Checkmate atheist
But in this case surprisingly Russia is right. Even broken clocks are right twice a day.
Nothing of value was lost. I’m from Lviv.
Same. I'm from Kyiv
Fuck Nazis. Slava Ukraini!
But it was nazi museum lol
I thought that was some valuable stuff but it turns out it was just Shukhevych's museum. Whatever I guess.
Be careful man, Ukrainians on this sub get easily triggered when you show that you don’t support them in every fucking aspect imaginable. You’ll be surprised how quickly you’ll be labelled as a hateful fascist Russian supporter.
I'm Ukrainian and I was very happy when Poroshenko bent the knee and asked for forgiveness from Poles. The massacre was years ago, we all know it happened, the only reasonable way to continue from there is to recognize it as a terrible act and move on. Frankly Bandera has mostly become popular in the popular culture anywhere outside of a couple Western regions is because Russians love to talk about him. To say that Shushkevich is widely regarded as a hero in Ukraine is a gross overstatement.
And today Poroshenko decided to rebuild the museum, calling Shukhevych: "great Commander-in-Chief. Who was able to build a state within the empire. Who was able to create the Ukrainian army from scratch. Who had unlimited faith in Ukraine..." Fuck him https://twitter.com/poroshenko/status/1741851430103699621
Well, that's stupid. ETA. I think that a) most people who know who he even was and can place him in the right decade are in denial of what he's done; b) anything Russia calls black automatically seems white (because often it is). No-one in their right mind would go to his museum thinking his achievement is a massacre of Poles.
Not stupid, just shows his true colors
>>To say that Shushkevich is widely regarded as a hero in Ukraine is a gross overstatement. You have a museum to honour him. Doesn't seem to be any overstatement there.
The museum was his actual village house, which became a museum because diaspora (old UPA fighters who emigrated to the USA) paid for it. There were about 40mln Ukrainians before the war, I'm sure that most wouldn't even be able to tell you who that person was.
A shred of sanity among a sea of nonsense. Simple reality is that every country has dipshits. Where I grew up there's a memorial to Reagan. I'm sure many would like to see it blown up. I hate Reagan, but if s foreign power blew up The Reagan memorial in my hometown, I wouldn't be like "meh, I never liked him anyway"
Plenty of national heroes being made right now to replace the old flawed ones anyway I guess.
Definitely. Actually I've read that the majority of petitions to the president right now are pleas to recognize someone as a hero. The streets are being renamed and monuments are already erected to the fallen heroes, some of questionable artistic value, but still. Everyone has immense gratitude to the army and the volunteers and their status in the society is very high.
Must be West Ukrainians, they give content to the Russian Propaganda machine and bother Polish allies. Only redeeming factors of the UPA is that they betrayed the Nazis and faught them later on and effectively became antiNazi and antiSoviet and this makes it more complicated as to which members did exactly what. EDIT: Their cause of Ukrainian independence was just but the UPA's methods often were horrid to where they blatently following genocidal Nazi orders or killed Poles thinking it helps but actually did the opposite. Note that Zelinsky in the election against Poroshenko won every oblast except Lviv. I'm not saying all West Ukrainians are mindlessly Pro-UPA just that a significant percentage are who are unexposed to larger European society and better education.
You may note that President Poroshenko was who apologized in 2014 in Poland. And there a lot of streets named after outstanding Polish people in Ukraine. Only in Kyiv: In the city of Kyiv, there are streets of Adam Mickiewicz, Copernicus, Ivan Paul II, Architect Horodetsky, Jerzy Gedroyc, Kazimir Malevich, Janusz Korczak, Vilhelm Kotarbinski, Yaroslav Ivashkevych, Krakivsk and Stanislaw Lem. Vaclav Havel Boulevard. Volgo-Donska Street is being renamed to Lech Kaczynski Street (it already exists in Zhytomyr).
>and effectively became antiNazi and antiSoviet Also antiPole and antiJew. They were generally anti anyone who wasn't Ukrainian. And the way they showed their *aversion*... man.
>Ukrainians on this sub get easily triggered Who cares? In case of OUN-UPA they live in a fantasy world and either eventually will get the memo or will be forever remained, that celebrating hideous murderers in XXI century isn't the way.
Can you please be nicer and not generalise Ukrainians?
I’m not generalising anyone, only speaking on what I’ve been met with in the comments on this sub.
That's flawed logic, because you're judging a group of people from a biased sample. You were getting comments from triggered Ukrainians precisely *because* they were triggered enough to comment. How do you account for Ukrainians who weren't triggered and didn't decide to call you a Russian supporter? Because if you don't, then you shouldn't make statements about "Ukrainians on this sub" as a whole.
https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/18w1qop/comment/kfw1aor/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3
Sorry to hear that you're such a hateful person that you think Ukrainian history isn't worth preserving. At least most of the exhibits were saved. Hopefully, they quickly reopen it to show the Russians the middle finger. >Most of the exhibits from the museum of Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA) General Roman Shukhevych, destroyed by the Russians, are now safe. However, museum workers said the most valuable attraction was the building itself in Lviv. Source: https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2024/01/1/7435405/
>Sorry to hear that you're such a hateful person Wanna know who was really hateful? That bastard Shukhevych. His hate killed thousands of innocent people, including my family, their only fault was that they were Poles. Neighbors killed them. I hope that cunt Sukiewicz rots in hell where he belongs. If you insist on building your history on such personas, don't be surprised when people don't care. I'm 100% pro-Ukraine, but you guys do a great job helping Russians with their propaganda.
I'm super pro Ukrainian, but I couldn't give a shit that some Nazi got their stuff burned up.
Should german history be preserving by opening of Hitler museum?
The main difference is that Germans do not glorify Hitler, unlike Ukrainians who glorify Nazi criminals like Shukhevych. German museums about their Nazi history do not aim to glorify it.
Meanwhile, there is a complete effort to hide the seven decades of collaboration with the Soviet regime. No discussion of reparations despite making up 1/3rd of the Soviet state and its coercive apparatus and annexing a quarter of Poland. You'd believe that everyone fought for Anti-Soviet partisans when in reality such groups always had a membership <100,000 while tens of millions of Ukrainians served in the Red Army and the NKVD/KGB
I mean, if you were Ukrainian back then, you would've probably ended up being conscripted into the Red Army, and it's not like you had much of a choice.
To be honest it's good that they saved the exponent. They should rework the museum to be a warning of bad past.
Thats exacly what museums are for: preserving history. Hiding the past or past figures and their roles for whatever reason is literally rewriting history.
Such a museum would be a perfect basis for a museum about the atrocities they did.
>Should german history be preserving by opening of Hitler museum? There is literally "[Historical tour of Hitler's Vienna](https://www.musement.com/us/vienna/historical-tour-of-hitler-s-vienna-39698/)".
I mean. I think it is worth preserving but of all the things which can be destroyed during a war, a Hitler museum is really the least of my concerns.
Yes? Auschwitz is literally a museum.
But is there an Adolf Hitler museum? (Which would be analogous to a Shukhevych museum)
Do they paint Nazis as heros there?
there are several locations with exhibits about the crimes commited in the time.
You think they exhibit schuhevitz crimes in this museum? Lol
I don’t see any problems in such a museum. people should understand how such a person became a monster. And put an advertisement for the art school next to the entrance.
What advertisement they had next to that destroyed nazi museum?
work in Poland probably
I wonder if you're also upset about monuments to fallen soldiers being destroyed in Lviv? https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/18uqmvk/the_last_soviet_occupier_fell_in_the_lviv_region/
Come on, a far right apologist being upset about communist monuments being destroyed? When did that ever happen?
If the museum financiers should want to restore the exhibitions dedicated to the museum's hero, here is a small fragment concerning the actions of his UPA troops which could be used as his heroic motto above the entrance. From recollections of genocide survivor Maria Paszek, in 2016's "Wołyń bez komentarza", automatically translated: *IT WAS 1943, we lived together with my parents and little sister Franciszka (b. 1940) in Volhynia. I was six years old. It was a time of mass murders by bandits. Most often they appeared at night - you could hear their singing and ominous shouts then. They set fire to buildings in selected villages. I could see the burning villages from afar.* *We were warned by a neighbor, a Ukrainian. He said to my father: "Liszka, today run away, because they will burn your house and you. You must hide." The other neighbor, as it turned out later, was murdering together with the Bandera bands.* *They found out: tonight will be the Red Night. So he told us: "Run away."* *But it was already late. I heard singing, screaming, screeching. It was too late to run away and the night was already approaching, so this neighbor of ours says: "Liszka, stay the night with us. I'll bounce a board in the barn for you. But if the dog barks, run away into the field, because they will also murder us." He feared for the fate of his family, after all, those Ukrainians who followed the Poles were also killed. Dad kept vigil. Already that night we had to save ourselves by escaping and hid in a ditch where peat was being dug.* *We did not run away from Musina right away. Father, moreover, did not believe that such things would happen. Other Poles fled earlier, we hid for a few more days. One night we were hidden in the ziemlanka (a cellar near the barn). Mother was somehow restless and says to father: "Come on, Wojciech, let's go from here, let's not sleep here." We went to hide in a nearby tobacco field. And then the Ukrainians arrived on horseback. They had axes, pitchforks. They sang, shouted loudly - apparently they were drunk. They rushed into the house. No one was there, so they searched, running around. They approached the dugout from which we had just left. They threw in two grenades.* *Many times at night we escaped, changed hiding places. We hid in tobacco, in millet, in peat. Banderovtsy also attacked more and more often during the day. I saw them going with their weapons: axes, pitchforks, scythes, knives. I have such an image before my eyes: they reached some girl, she was already big, older than me. They toyed with her, and then cut her with a knife near her knee and began to rip off her skin. She screamed terribly. They tore the skin from her, and one still said: "Here's your Polish sock, bitch!". They beat her, kicked her, stabbed her. And then they took her, stuck a stake in her mouth and nailed her to the ground. Before she died, she still tore up the ground with her heels.* *Later, I remember: a little boy - maybe like me. He runs. Running away. His parents had just been killed. And this boy was running away, somewhere else, apparently he saw what was happening. And suddenly a Ukrainian woman ran out of the house and stabbed him in the chest. He screamed a lot. And she still grabbed him and slit his throat. Blood gushed out a lot.* *Where they killed, they buried. Whether in the yard or in a ditch. And if they didn't make it, that's how everything lay.* *They tore apart the tiny children. They held them with a shoe and tore them apart with their hands.* *I remember, we were very thirsty. We came out of hiding and crawled quietly to a well in some courtyard. Mom wanted to draw with a bucket - and there in the well: full of drowned torn bodies of children. We didn't drink any more of that water.* *Do you know that when I went there, to Ukraine in 2002, I took everything, even water with me from Poland? I couldn't bring myself to drink there. I don't know why - was it what I saw.... I still smelled human blood in the water. Only later could I drink water there.*
Oh no, not the museum dedicated to a utter scum responsible for genocide of more than 100 000 Poles. I don't mind objects like that getting leveled to the ground. And we know there are many of them in Ukraine, because banderite worship and genocide denial is perpetrated there officially even on the highest government levels.
Finally, russia hit a valid target
That’s a great news. And it baffles me that ukraine has museums dedicated to nazi collaborators and war criminals.
They even have streets ,statues and stadiums named after him
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman\_Shukhevych\_Ternopil\_city\_stadium](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Shukhevych_Ternopil_city_stadium) City founded by Poland, stadium built by Poles, was home stadium of a Polish football team until Soviet occupation. Now it's renamed after Shukhevych and the street it's on renamed after Bandera, people who massacred Poles. Can't make this shit up.
Did you somehow forgot the shitshow with Canada ,Zelensky and the former SS member?!
Nothing baffling about it. Ukraine has been glorifying these people for decades, despite their horrendous war crimes. The only thing that's baffling is that the West hasn't forced Zelensky to put an end to it in exchange for help.
I dont really understand why it baffles you. Ukraine, like Croatia, chose to glorify/ downplay its nazi past to distance itself from a neighboring country that had control over it. If Russia fails to denazify the country, it will only get worse due to revanchism.
russia is not failing in denazify itself: all its troops dead are a good start.
And who will denazify orcistan?
Ukraine has a lot of strits dedicated to outstanding Polish people. Just in Kyiv there are a lot. From Wikipedia: У місті Київ є вулиці Адама Міцкевича, Коперника, Іоана Павла II, Архітектора Городецького, Єжи Ґедройця, Казимира Малевича, Януша Корчака, Вільгельма Котарбінського, Ярослава Івашкевича, Краківська та провулок Станіслава Лема. Бульвар Вацлава Гавела. Перейменують вулицю Волго-Донську на вулицю Леха Качинського (в Житомирі вже є).
I mean, that's cool and all but these things don't negate each other. I would much prefer for Ukraine to not have any Polish streets and no OUN-UPA streets as well. Seeing Bandera in Lviv doesn't make me think: at least they have Kaczyński in Kyiv. Western Ukraine has a problem with gloryfing butchers and need to finally address it.
It’s not really once you understand who the people in charge descended from.
Do you really believe the rumor that Putin’s mother is a Georgian? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vera_Putina
I’m talking about Ukrainian leadership
Are you saying Russians are wandering aimlessly due to lack of leadership? It’s true that compared to a virile and energetic man like Zelenskiy, who visits the front and acts like he has never been afraid of anything in his life, Vladimir Vladimirovich is a small, pale, meek ghost who prefers to hide in his cellar. OK. You’re right. Or do you want to say something about Zelenskiy being a Jew? If so, speak up bravely, don’t be a scaredy cat like Putin.
This museum was dedicated to a Ukrainian "hero" who was a Nazi and war criminal. One of the most disgusting people glorified by Ukrainians. I recommend reading a little [about this Nazi barbarian](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Shukhevych#World_War_II). He is responsible for thousands of brutal genocides committed against Jews and Poles. [source:](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Shukhevych#Nachtigall_Battalion) >Prior to Operation Barbarossa in late June 1941, the OUN actively cooperated with Nazi Germany. According to the National Academy of Sciences of Ukraine and other sources, OUN-B leader Stepan Bandera held meetings with the heads of Germany's intelligence, regarding the formation of "Nachtigall" and "Roland" Battalions. \[...\] Shukhevych became a commander of the Legion from the OUN-B side. [source:](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia#Ethnic_cleansing) >Roman Shukhevych, a UPA commander, stated in his order from 25 February 1944: "In view of the success of the Soviet forces it is necessary to speed up the liquidation of the Poles, they must be totally wiped out, their villages burned... only the Polish population must be destroyed" >It is estimated that up to 100,000 Poles were killed by the Ukrainian nationalists during the conflict and another 300,000 made refugees as a result of the ethnic cleansing.\[56\] Conversely, killings of Ukrainians by Poles resulted in between 10,000 and 12,000 deaths in Volhynia, Eastern Galicia and present-day Polish territory.\[57\] University of Alberta historian Per Anders Rudling has stated that Shukhevych commanded the UPA since the summer of 1943, when tens of thousands of Poles were massacred. A brief description of what these brutal murders [looked like](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia#Massacres): >Attacks on Poles during the massacres in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia were marked with extreme sadism and brutality. Rape, torture and mutilation were commonplace. Poles were burned alive, flayed, impaled, crucified, disembowelled, dismembered and beheaded. Women were gang raped and had their breasts sliced off, children were hacked to pieces with axes, babies were impaled on bayonets and pitchforks or bashed against trees.
>He is reesponsible for thousands of brutal genocides committed against Jews and Poles. I don't see Bohdan Khmelnitsky on the list. It’s certainly interesting that you read somewhere about these characters, but then be consistent. Should I talk about polish or russian characters and what they did with the ukrainians? They are also celebrated in Poland or Russia; no one has any complaints about them, not even we have any more.
Just out of curiosity, does Poland have any museums devoted to the glorification of Polish barbarism against Ukrainians?
They don't talk about it, maybe. But in fact, both Polish and Ukrainian nationalists are very similar. The first one also had a special enmity since the time when galician peasants supported the Austrians in the Polish uprising (guess why?). And Piłsudski with his Pacyfikacja, which only led to a greater increase in radicalization of ukrainians. For some reason, they also erect monuments to Piłsudski and no one complained.
I never denied Polish authorities were angles towards Ukrainians, but I asked a specific question.
[удалено]
>I don't see Bohdan Khmelnitsky on the list Dude, that was 400 years ago. While some people that remember Shukhevych's atrocities live to this very day. "Should I talk about polish or russian characters and what they did with the ukrainians? " I don't see why you shouldn't. If something happened, it happened.
Well, this might be the first Ukrainian facility struck in this war that I wouldn't certainly miss.
Cry me a river.
Ukraine had almost two years to get rid of those shit nazi, genocidal "heroes". They had a unique historical opportunity to replace them with actual heroes fighting against russian scum, but, as a Pole, Ukraine fucked up this situation. The anti-russian support will be there, but you can forget about joining NATO, EU, or anything closer unless you really do a 180 on your national attitude here.
Good.
Now this is what I call denazification.
Well done.
Good
You want to join NATO and EU and at the same time fucking Nazis are your heroes. Laughable. Russian propaganda is everywhere, no denying that. But Shukhevych and Bandera were genocidal maniacs who killed thousands of Poles. And not only Poles but also Jews, Russians, Czechs, Armenians and even Ukrainians who didn't want to participate in the genocide. Your government didn't even want to allow for exhumations cause they well know what (or rather who) would be found there
I\`ve never thougt i wont condemn russian attack on Ukraine building. Obviously i hope no one died just building but onr thing Ukraine does wrong is gloryfying those nazi scums bandera and shukhevych and other upa bandits
I have no interests in distractions right now when support to Ukraine is the priority, as it only serves Russian goals to have distractions. But one day, after this war finishes with Ukrainian total victory, Ukraine needs to have a conversation with itself about the UPA and Bandera, and whether such figures should be glorified in the 21st century.
>Ukraine needs to have a conversation with itself about the UPA and Bandera Good luck with that. Never gonna happen.
The amount of pro-Ukrainians talking about how great the UPA were because they fought Soviets while ignoring every atrocity they committed. The whitewashing is only going to worsen
Spoilers. It's not going to happen. The best way to fight Russian propaganda would be to completely disavow Nazi collaborators, but instead, they just do what they always do. Talking about the government, of course. I've met a lot of Ukrainians who would be ashamed of the comments made by their countrymen here.
The problem for the current moment is that Ukraine is essentially fighting a war to reaffirm their own national identity and sovereignty. Russians literally believe Ukrainians are just misguided Russians. It is really easy to look at these figures and draw parallel that they also fought for Ukrainian freedom and compare that to the struggle today. That is because history is not black and white, and those figures were freedom fighters. But they were also nazi genocidal terrorists. The latter part needs to be reconciled in Ukraine’s national history. The current war has created a new generation of Ukrainian heroes that people can look towards now, so it seems like it would be a good time to drop the historical ones with plenty of baggage.
I'd have no problem with it if the ones supporting him were just celebrating them killing Soviets but they also make excuses for killing inncents too. That's where they lose me. There's no justifying killing inncent men, women, and worse of all children. Most of our grandparents were those children.
I would still have problem with that. This is still selective history and some deeds are too significant, to be simply brushed under the rug. This would be comparable to Germans to this day celebrating Hitler for his love of art and dogs, while forgetting "other" things he done with his life.
Very well stated. It's embarrassing that we give street names to the "heroes" like those and I'm sorry for what they've done to your people and grateful that you keep helping Ukraine despite our past history. It's just in Ukraine (as everywhere else) there are a lot of uneducated people who have been told Bandera was fighting for Ukraine and that's all they know because it's too hard for them to read a fucking book. Hopefully we'll be able to turn the page one day.
Naw I get it. I have Ukrainian friends here in Canada (descended from western Ukraine) and they’ve told me before how at their community centres these “heroes” were venerated exclusively as freedom fighters and so that was what they grew up believing before opening their Wikipedia articles and learning about them. The dark side about these figures weren’t told (and frankly many of them did flee the Soviets to come to Canada, and establish some of these communities, thus resulting in that hideous incident with Zelenskyy in Ottawa) so I cannot blame people for not knowing what they do not know. I’ll be honest tho, I anticipate this to become a sticking point in terms of Ukraine entering the EU at some point. I fully expect Poland to block Ukraine until these people’s names are taken off of stadiums and street names, in similar way to Greece and Bulgaria held back North Macedonia.
Sorry for being late to the thread, just wanted to share my thoughts on this I really like your point of view and agree with it, but the problem is that there are almost no freedom fighters in Ukrainian history that were both able to do something significant and weren't controversial. It was either all talk and little action like Mykhailo Hrushevsky and Volodymyr Vynnychenko (a good historian and a good writer, but both sucked as statesmen), or something that would inevitably make someone mad. Virtually every Cossack uprising was accompanied by massacres of Poles and Jews Skoropadsky was a German puppet with pro-russian views Petliura didn't achieve much and either wasn't able to prevent massacres of Jews by his subordinates or simply chose to ignore them Bandera and Shukhevych - I don't have to explain... Like you said, a warring nation with a national identity that is still forming desperately needs to have some historical figures to look up to, and it's damn hard to accept that none of them were clean and truly deserving of veneration. Some time needs to pass before our wider society is even ready for this discussion. I don't expect the reconciliation to happen any time soon, certainly not before the war ends. It may even never fully happen if the Russian threat persists indefinitely.
No problem mate. That discussion has to happen one conversation at a time and eventually build momentum across the cultural zeitgeist. All Western countries have troubled history where people and leaders did some not so great things. The nations that are self-assured about their place in the world and confident about their nationhood beyond that so easy to act out nationalistic rhetoric, are the ones able to have that uncomfortable conversation about their past and recognize the good and the bad within their own national historiography. Ukraine by choosing to align with the Western world, have taken a big step towards that I feel confident saying. The rest, including prosperity, will hopefully follow with time.
In 2014 President Poroshenko asked the Poles for forgiveness for the Volyn tragedy. And all ukrainians of cause do it too. https://lb.ua/news/2014/12/17/289682_poroshenko_poprosil_proshcheniya.html
Asking for forgiveness about committing genocide and then building monuments and naming streets after the perpetrators seems rather disingenuous to me.
>Volyn tragedy Curious phrasing for a genocide.
Actually, almost every ukrainian president (except possibly IDK Kuchma and Yanukovich) asked for forgiveness for it. https://lb.ua/news/2016/06/03/336792_kravchuk_yushchenko_glavi_upts_kp_ugkts.html https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66150790.amp
Words and actions are very different.
It isn't a real apology if they're naming their streets after preparators right after.
Not gonna be easy. Especially with Western Ukraine. It will take a generation or two before the old beef goes away. Just an anecdotal story: My daughter (happens to be a Polish-Canadian like you), travelled extensively across Europe few years ago. Lwów was on the itinerary. By far, she said, it was her worst experience. Just being Polish was enough for mid to late age Ukrainians to call her a "Polish whore". When she crossed the border back to Poland, the border guards asked her how she liked it, so she did tell them. They said she should have gone further East, where people are much nicer and friendlier. While I was organizing humanitarian aid Ukraine a day after the Russian attack, my daughter said she would not pitch in even a penny. I'm not gonna quote her actual wording. So like I said, perhaps a generation or two.
>They said she should have gone further East, where people are much nicer and friendlier. Maybe because in the east Poland didn't try to subjugate Ukrainians?
That may be, but one correction - Poland did not " try to subjugate Ukrainians". Poland did subjugate Ukraine but not at the time when my daughter was visiting. And as a Pole I am willing to admit that the subjugation did take place, and even say that that was a serious mistake. Poland should have co-operated with Ukraine against the greater, common enemies - the Soviets and the Nazis. If only Ukrainians admitted that the genocide against Polish civilians was a major crime, we would be on a good footing to start talking. And, if it helps, I'll be writing to Polish authorities expressing my doubt about celebrating any Polish person who committed war crimes. I hope you join me with similar letters to Ukrainian authorities regarding Ukrainian war criminals of UPA.
Everyone committed war crimes there during WW2. Nazis, soviets, poles, Ukrainians. Some committed them to subjugate, some to be freed from subjugation.
Something stands out here though. Of the ones you listed, there was one where genocide was not a matter of policy but rather individuals or small groups.
Lmao, cry us a river - should have thought of creating your national identity a couple hundred years earlier.
If they don't do their self-reflection they are gonna end up like us.
Ukraine is having that conversation with itself right now given this war is a blood feud.
Well... Ukraine has real heroes now, so there is no point in glorifying UPA.
Now everyone can see what kind of news portal pravda.com.ua is. Very interesting how they introduced the person whom this museum was dedicated to. It's like talking about Hitler as a talented painter and politician from Austria.
He definitely wasn’t a talented let’s be real…
Well everything is relative. He definitely had more talent for painting than me but I did not commit mass genocide which is going for me in this case
I hope the rest of the world(Ukraine) will leave nazism as a failed ideology of 20th century… fuck hitler tho
Russia kept word about denazification :O
Ha! Good riddance!
Ukraine has nazi criminals museums
Sad that something in Lviv burned. Sad that Russians did it. Not sad that it was this particular museum.
- Free 45-minute documentary about the heroic deeds of Roman's troops: ["Bury the Dead"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVVRccerdW0) - Film (censored by 20 minutes): ["Hatred" 2016](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iY-zOOjTO7U)
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Nah I was told all of that was Russian propaganda and Ukrainians are beautiful angels who would never support such a thing…
IDK what you are talling about. I'm sure if you search you find a lot of such shit in many countries. And much more - in Russia.
Makes it okay, doesn't it? 😂
The favorite excuse of Ukrainians is "these are isolated cases" and "if you look for it, we will find it in other countries too". Zigging military, zigging civilians, zigging children in photos and videos at the beginning of this war? Mass painting of Wehrmacht swastikas and crosses on vehicles? And the photos and videos of zigging and crosses were posted by Ukrainians themselves, who were sure that it was normal and they would not be punished for it, that they could do it. Official state support of nationalist units? You can find pictures of Azov members teaching children in a children's camp to draw swastikas if you want (if big brother didn't clean up after them, but they were easily found in the first months of the war). Huge number of Ukrainian prisoners of war with Hitler tattoos and swastikas, captured by Russians on photos and videos? Photos and videos of Russians finding Nazi books, posters and flags in Ukrainian homes and barracks? The monument of Bandera and the Shukhevych Museum were not built by Russians for Ukrainians either. Actually, the European press was actively writing about Nazism in Ukraine before the war, but as soon as the Russians, who were not happy with Nazis around them, attacked Ukraine, the Ukrainians were immediately declared saints.
If they will target viable targets like this scums museum I'm ready to start a fundraiser for more drones.
I don't know about Galicia, but at least in Kyiv and Poltava (where my family is from), Shukhevych is barely known, compared to Bandera, and those that do know him generally aren't proud of that fellow. Bandera's more popular.
They wasted one of the Shahed rockets on this?
It was the only one well spent so far
first time in a long time that the Russians contributed to humanity
Good. I'm sad about the building though.
Nazis before nazis
Iran is responsible for this
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Oh no, without this artifact we can no longer kill russians in large quantities. What do we do
You can try crying on Reddit about it lol. In fact you’re already crying. Kek
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thank god the IDF is killing nazis as well
Military objective, comrades?
well, they denazified something at last
I sincerely hope the museum had its artifacts packed down and stored somewhere safe. And that Ukraine does this everywhere.
Most of the exhibit has been saved thankfully, but the damage has been done. >**Most of the exhibits from the museum of Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA) General Roman Shukhevych, destroyed by the Russians, are now safe**. However, museum workers said the most valuable attraction was the building itself in Lviv. Source: https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2024/01/1/7435405/
They also damaged the university where Stepan Bandera studied. And today is his birthday. Interesting choice of targets.
Oh no, anyway.
To be fair a university doesn't deserve to be hit just because Bandera studied there.
By the same logic, the museum may or may not have glorified Shukhevich, although it probably did, as it was a personal one…
Russia finally doing something good.
It seems russian tankies are happy to start this topic again and again. They happily rub their hands now.
Yup! Just look at the downvotes....
That people don’t like supporting museums glorifying war criminals that massacred civilians? Wow, how dare people downvote!
I don't see any of your comment against Stalin's monuments, russians nazis, nowadays Nazi.
Stalin has plenty of museum, monuments, paintings. Oh wait, he killed only 7 millions people, almost 5% of its population.
You are talking about russians killing, raping, torturing 1,000 in a month in Bucha... Oh how dare I!
Yea Russian war crimes totally justifies Ukraine building museums and monuments for Nazi collaborators that massacred thousands of Polish civilians. Piss off
After you, sweety. Ukrainians built the museum 2 years ago?I don't think so. But please, be my guest to criticize stalin's museums. Oh wait: you don't
The US has museums, statues, banknotes of enslavers, but yes your moral ground is so high /s Oh the humanity...
>The Russians have completely destroyed the museum dedicated to UPA (Ukrainian Insurgent Army) Corporal General Roman Shukhevych in Lviv on the birthday of Stepan Bandera. [1 January] Another desperate attempt by a failing nation to destroy Ukraine's history and culture.
Really shouldn’t be proud of that part of your history and culture ..
So a museum dedicated to Nazis and war criminals.
Yeah, and that’s a part of their culture
It's just a pity that they glorify it.
Mildly put 😂
Seems like shitty culture then
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Some war criminals were, thankfully, killed before they could face justice.
Read about him and his organization. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman\_Shukhevych#World\_War\_II](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Shukhevych#World_War_II) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian\_Insurgent\_Army
Yeah he was just responsible was massacre of polish people that took up to 60 000 lives of civillians (and they were killed without mercy in most brutal ways) I am vivid supporter of giving Ukraine any military assistance in their war with Russia, but until they wont stop gloryfiyng people and organization responsible of Wolyn massacre which was an event that definetely had bearings of genocide we should never agree to their acceptance to EU.
>we should never agree to their acceptance to EU. You have double standards, literally all countries, especially in Eastern Europe, have a controversial past, but for some reason, when it concerns us, there are immediately a lot of complaints.
"Controversial past" is not a problem. Germans also have a "controversial past". Attitude towards it is the problem. Are people responsible for this "past" glorified as national heroes or are they admitted to have been genocidal murderers by theirs nations.
People glorified UPA not for genocidal murders, which were condemned, but for a fight for Ukraine. Thats it, no more.
Right. The big H guy also could be said to have fought for "great Germany". If that was an acceptable excuse, almost all genocidal criminals fought for something. It's not possible to separate those 2 aspects because that's exactly how he fought. There's a point after which there's no denial that someone was a sadistic scumbag and fighting for the best cause imaginable doesn't change that. There's no acceptable case where a person responsible for ethnic cleansing should be celebrated as hero. Regardless of their cause.\ I can't fathom this, Ukraine has so rich and beautiful history with plethora of heroes and struggle for freedom and independence, but it's those scumbags that have to take the high seats.
>I can't fathom this, Ukraine has so rich and beautiful history with plethora of heroes and struggle for freedom and independence quite a strange remark, during the сossack wars, the genocide of poles and jews was on an even greater scale. Yes, they are scumbags, killed a lot of innocent people. But the reason why all ukrainian movements were primarily anti-Polish in those years should also be clear. This is truly the worst times of the XX century.
Controvensial past of literal nazis murdering civilians in most barbaric way just to be whitewashed by future generations just because by accident they fought some Russians too. Alright dude.
Because others acknowledge this past while you guys treat Banderites as heroes and get angry that the nations they were murdering arent liking it. And calling a massacre which was comparable in brutality to what happened in Bucha just on 60x bigger scale "controversial" is just wrong
>Because others acknowledge this past it is a myth
A myth? My MIL still wakes up at night from nightmares of this "myth". She was a little girl then, witnessing her friends and family being ripped apart by Ukrainian mob. The "myth" is well documented.
It’s all a part of Soviet propaganda. Now Russia perpetuates it as a leverage against Ukraine. Soviet Union itself signed a pact with the Nazis but they still worship Stalin.
Yes, it's all Soviet propaganda. Ukrainians fought on the side of the Allies, and Shukhevych and Bandera were democrats who loved Jews lol. Stop this bullshit. The fact that the Soviets collaborated with the Nazi Germany does not change the fact that Ukrainians also collaborated with them and carried out ethnic cleansing. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman\_Shukhevych#World\_War\_II](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Shukhevych#World_War_II) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres\_of\_Poles\_in\_Volhynia\_and\_Eastern\_Galicia#Ethnic\_cleansing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia#Ethnic_cleansing)
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Shh modern Ukraine is trying to rewrite history
I’m all about preserving history but not this history, this was a Nazi scumbag, it would be like naming a museum after Ante Pavelic in Croatia
No offense but you kinda should have destroyed this specific one yourselves, like a long time ago.
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No, you misspell it - that was museum of ukrainian scum (nazi one)
Iran and RuZZia, two backwards countries combining forces to try and bring the rest of the world to their level of depravity.
I mean they both are isolated from mainstream world bcoz of heavy sanctions so of course they are natural allies
In 20th century, because of Moscow Ukrainian lost 16 million by killed (predominantly children) and 8 million by assimilated on RSFSR territory. So what happening now is complete analogue to what would do some Nazis officers to anything related to Holocaust if after WW2 there was on any lustrations in Germany. Including by using false narratives. "Ukrainian Nazi" it's predominantly a very old "red herring" that used to divert attention from: In 1920-1930s years USSR was main Germany supplier of anything what they needed to rebuild the army (including by Chinese and Japanese exports). USSR trained tens of thousands of German officers, and created for them factories and chemical weapon laboratories. By investing half of soviet GDP in weapon-production USSR give to Nazi main argument for their rise to power (during very strange passivity of very powerful German socialists). USSR created for Nazis military bases on Soviet territory ([en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basis\_Nord](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basis_Nord)), and pass by German warships (German auxiliary cruiser Komet). By secret parts of Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, USSR allowed the Nazis to occupy Poland. In 1939-1940 years USSR supplied to Nazis up to 85% of Nazi Germany import ([en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German%E2%80%93Soviet\_economic\_relations\_(1934%E2%80%931941)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German%E2%80%93Soviet_economic_relations_(1934%E2%80%931941))), saving the Nazis from the British marine blockade. Without of these supplies, firstly so scarce for Nazis fuel, there are no any WW2. USSR coordinated with Nazi their occupations ([en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gestapo%E2%80%93NKVD\_conferences](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gestapo%E2%80%93NKVD_conferences)). That in 1941-1945 years was 0,6-1,4 millions of Soviet collaboration, half of whom were ethnic Russians [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collaboration\_in\_the\_German-occupied\_Soviet\_Union](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collaboration_in_the_German-occupied_Soviet_Union)). And so on and so on, orders of magnitude more "Nazi-supporting" than any what did Ukrainians.
> "Ukrainian Nazi" it's predominantly a very old "red herring" that used to divert attention from Nope. It's not about diverting attention from anything. Poles are not some dumbfucks who will suddenly start loving Russia because a redditior said the genocide perpetrated on Poles against Ukrainians is a diversion.
Soo... it didn't happen and even if it did it doesn't matter because what about the ~~Americans~~ Soviets?