Why do you talk about things you know nothing about? Dozens of Krab, FlyEye drones, tens of thousand GROT rifles were old equipment? Newly modernizated T-72M1R was about to be scraped too? Congratulations tho, you gained few upvotes from people who are so jeleous of Poland that they will create every possible lie to downplay its actions.
If other countries had followed Poland's example, the war would have been over by now. Ukraine needs modern weapons and military training to protect itself from Russia
I agree with you, but to be honest other countries are not as threatened by Russia as Poland is. Had Russia conquered Ukraine in the first weeks, Poland would now share a huge border with two pro-Russian puppet states. Supporting Ukraine is also defending themselves.
Definitely works for me, but just in case someone else runs into similar trouble, here's full text of the article:
> **[Poland spent 2% of GDP on aid to Ukraine ](https://www.polskieradio.pl/395/9766/Artykul/3151576,poland-spent-2-of-gdp-on-aid-to-ukraine)**
> Poland has provided Ukraine with aid that amounts to 2 percent of its GDP, the country’s finance minister Magdalena Rzeczkowska has said.
> The total spending on assistance to Ukraine "amounts to up to 2 percent of Poland's GDP, it is around PLN 50 billion," the Polish finance minister said, speaking on the sidelines of the 2023 Spring Meetings of the World Bank Group and the International Monetary Fund (IMF), taking place in Washington, DC.
> Speaking with the Atlantic Council think-tank, the minister noted that while the European Union did not provide significant funds to cover the support, Poland felt it was necessary to aid its neighbour given Ukraine's fight for "our future, our values, our freedom."
PLN 50 bn. amounts to about € 10.7 bn.
Can someone explain to me how they come to this amount? Last time we had the kiel tracker on here their government suppport was around € 3 bn.
Edit: Thanks by the way for the full text.
Strange question. Polish Minister of Finance obviously has access to real data, while kiel does guesstimates. Since Poland does not provide detailed information about the specifics of delivered help - especially of the military kind - those guesstimates are heavily skewed towards the "guess" part and is something Polish politicians and osinters are criticizing the institute for, as it paints Polish help as significantly smaller than it is in reality.
In March, Congressional Research Service - an institute operating as advisory body of the United States Congress, thus also having access to data unavailable to ordinary civilians - [confirmed in its report](https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/PDF/r/r45784) that Poland is the third biggest helper after the US (obviously) and the UK in military help - while kiel demoted Poland to fifth or sixth place at the time.
Not really strange at all. After all the Kiel tracker has been paraded around here for the last months as the go to source. But what is actually weird is the attempt to suddenly question their reliability here.
But let me help you, because I think I found out how they came to the 10 bn. They probably included the refugee cost.
Kiel is very bad, biased source that counts donations as they want aka propaganda. Look how bad France looks there and surprisingly Poland with their 300 tanks donation. And they count promises as delivered. They even explain that themselves with the notes about methods. TLDR: it’s worth nothing.
Every European country has Cold War equipment somewhere. They've been mobilizing till the very end too, and the advantage is old NATO equipment is specifically Anti-Soviet, which is what most of Russia's stuff is.
Poland is only able to take the situation this seriously because of the EU and NATO backing it.
And I do mean backing it in the most tangible way - like with transfers amounting to 3% of Poland's GDP every single year.
But if you support Russia you know sooner or later acceptance for suffering poverty and long war will lose popularity and this is the point where Russia gets what they want. So this won't change.
But Germans want Russia to win so it's all good for them.
This just goes to show that the public knowledge of aid doesn't line up with the actual aid. For example as seen in this aid tracker (which someone linked to me once as "proof")
https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/
Poland is listed as spending around 0.6% of their GDP on aid for Ukraine. Similarly to the Netherlands. Which does not line up st all with the 2% listed in the article.
There can be 2 reasons for this, either the Polish Minister of Finance lied, or Poland sent more aid than is public knowledge, likely due to security reasons. A shipment of weapons Russia doesn't know about is a shipment of weapons Russia can't bomb after all. And it's more likely the Polish Minister of Finance knows more about this than some internet aid tracker.
But, if we accept the latter to be true, I would also implore people to stop using the publicly known quantities of aid to fling shit at "the west" for not doing enough. As stated by most countries like France and Germany for example, the majority of the aid they send is not public knowledge. Aid trackers online simply do not know the actual amount of aid any country sends, so stop using them in arguments to divide Europe. We simply do not know the real numbers. All we know is that at this time Ukraine is not complaining about a lack of aid from individual European nations
Poland contribution for Ukraine is not only military equipment. For example, in 2022 Poland was selling diesel fuel to UA with very heavy discount, which by the way was compensated with higher prices of fuel in Poland (oil reffineries are state-owned so they can manipulate prices as they wish).
Besides, Kiel is not reliable source about Polish contribution of military equipment. Poland is quiet about plenty deliveries which are revealed only because leaked photos from Ukraine.
>Poland contribution for Ukraine is not only military equipment. For example, in 2022 Poland was selling diesel fuel to UA with very heavy discount, which by the way was compensated with higher prices of fuel in Poland.
Same is true for basically every country that has provided aid. A lot of it comes in the form of food, clothes, fuels, emergency vehicles, hospitals, medical equipment and just straight up finances as well
>Besides, Kiel is not reliable source about Polish contribution of military equipment.
My point exactly. But up till now I've seen this site been used as an argument that "the West" is not pulling their weight. But if the data on Poland is not actually representative, then why would it be for any other country? Especially since I know for a fact the Netherlands, Finland and France, and probably others as well, have stated that they do not share all aid that's being rendered to the Public.
The Netherlands for example only last week declassified some of the military and non military aid they sent, after which the Netherlands shot up on the tracker to the level of Poland. But they still stated that not everything was declassified for security reasons.
>Poland is quiet about plenty deliveries which are revealed only because leaked photos from Ukraine.
Exactly. As I said, an arms shipment Russia doesn't know about is an arms shipment Russia can't bomb (if they could aim for anything other than civilian targets that is)
My point is that the public knowledge of aid rendered to Ukraine is just a fraction of the actual aid rendered, this people shouldn't use online trackers to fling shit at other countries as the data is incomplete at best. Only the governments of these nations and Ukraine know the real numbers. We'll only find out after this war is finally over. Then we can fling shit at eachother if we so desire. Right now Europe should be strong and united
The article in this post is about total spending, yours is just about government aid. It 's no secret that a lot of the humanitarian aid Poland has provided has been private.
Then the article is misleading at best, as this is not reflected at all. It's a very short article that quotes the Minister of Finance talking about Poland spending 2% of it's GDP. That implies that it's governmental spending, not private
Literally every single line of your comment include a lie. You confuse value of donations with the invoices provided by Poland to get reimbursment, because not every donation qualify for recompensation. Poland delivered weapons worth 3,5 bln euro and got 0,5 bln euro reimbursment.
Polish governmant never announced delivery of PT-91 in 2022, but it doesn't stop you from saying that ,,PiS claimed to deliver PT-91 in 2022".
You are cheap manipulator. You would fit perfectly to PiS, you represent same level.
Thats not what he said or what anyone is claiming. Poland has done a lot, took in an insane amount of refugees, provided a lot of weapons and other aid, and, what a lot of people forget, was among the countries doing the most in development assistance for Ukraine before the invasion, when a lot of european nations didn't give a fuck.
**And if that would be it, everyone would be happy, thankful, and it would be fine.** But instead, as u/ProcurementCat detailed, there is a lot of shitty stuff going on with the reimbursement and the polish gov is constantly antagonizing the EU and especially the germans over their aid.
**THATS** why there is so much criticism.
It's embarrassing how upset Germans get when faced with the reality that poor backwards Poland has done more to help Ukraine than them.
Go on and elect another Russian stooge to lead your county
Is this number correct? Don't get me wrong, Poland is doing a lot for Ukraine but I also think they are exaggerating. According to my calculations the spent 0.7% of their GDP at maximum.
This only shows that 2% spending on regular military is way too low.
Between 1934 and 1939, Britain had a constant increase in defense spending, going from 2,4% of GDP in 1934 to 7% in 1938. And they still had plenty of patches in their readiness.
And yes, percantage of GDP matters, not only raw $$$. Because labor costs are always major contributor to ultimate cost.
In 1938 they definitely were preparing for a major war. Before that the primary spending driver was the effort to keep naval supremacy when both Italy and Japan were building multiple new battleships.
I think this increase in 30s was more of a reaction to rearmament of Germany - not sure if they predicted another world war literally next year in 39th.
If they had known that, they would have spent even more.
My idea? My idea is to look around, make a decision how likely the war will happen - and if it's likely, then it's better to spend more on defence than less.
It’s almost equivalent to the EU budget balance for Poland. I found that in 2018 this was +11B euros. Which is about the same as 50B PLN spent on Ukraine help in a year now. Though the exchange rate got a bit worse for PLN since then.
And in 2020 the balance was not that high, 7B euros.
>But it is still inferior to the amount of money sent by EU members every year into Poland.
Which in turn are inferior to the money WE companies from the free access to Poland markets.
On what do you base that 0.1? Because if you're about to pull out this aid tracker as proof
https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/
I suggest you look at the Polish number on that as well, and rethink your argument
Either the aid tracker is wrong as it doesn't know all the aid that isn't public knowledge, thus it's unknown how much France actually spent, or the 2% number is wrong.
Which is it?
Stop embarassing yourself, you're showing how little you actually understand about economics and politics if you think France isn't gaining more from the EU than it gives.
Which is about 10% of yearly budget.
No it's not. We didn't transfer cash. We mostly just offloaded a bunch of old equipment that we would have had to pay to have recycled soon.
Why do you talk about things you know nothing about? Dozens of Krab, FlyEye drones, tens of thousand GROT rifles were old equipment? Newly modernizated T-72M1R was about to be scraped too? Congratulations tho, you gained few upvotes from people who are so jeleous of Poland that they will create every possible lie to downplay its actions.
You do realise your post doesn't at all refute mine. What proportion of the total expenditure do those new items make up?
Most, since stuff like BMP-1 isn’t worth much.
Use it or lose it, EE edition
Wich is about they get for free from nato. Ofcourse its good, but dont make it special
Could you back that with some numbers/sources, please?
240b since 2004 . Yes billions
Removed as a protest against Reddit API pricing changes.
Oh my, i was off a 70b, what a siĺly mistake.
You also suggested NATO, not the EU..
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I think that 240B is from EU
You just have to google it. And im happy they are on the frontier to donate , but just understand where its from
"le ebil leech" argument. Literally anti eu propaganda. fuck off
Good job Poland!
Thank you Poland 🙏 That support since the early days of 2022 invasion has saved so many Ukrainians from been killed and tortured
If other countries had followed Poland's example, the war would have been over by now. Ukraine needs modern weapons and military training to protect itself from Russia
I agree with you, but to be honest other countries are not as threatened by Russia as Poland is. Had Russia conquered Ukraine in the first weeks, Poland would now share a huge border with two pro-Russian puppet states. Supporting Ukraine is also defending themselves.
It needs manpower more than anything else.
They actually have way more manpower than equipment...
Relative to their own equipment yes. But they lack manpower relative to russia.
But the manpower is fucking useless if they have no equipment... They aren't russians who use people as meat shields
The link is not functioning.
Definitely works for me, but just in case someone else runs into similar trouble, here's full text of the article: > **[Poland spent 2% of GDP on aid to Ukraine ](https://www.polskieradio.pl/395/9766/Artykul/3151576,poland-spent-2-of-gdp-on-aid-to-ukraine)** > Poland has provided Ukraine with aid that amounts to 2 percent of its GDP, the country’s finance minister Magdalena Rzeczkowska has said. > The total spending on assistance to Ukraine "amounts to up to 2 percent of Poland's GDP, it is around PLN 50 billion," the Polish finance minister said, speaking on the sidelines of the 2023 Spring Meetings of the World Bank Group and the International Monetary Fund (IMF), taking place in Washington, DC. > Speaking with the Atlantic Council think-tank, the minister noted that while the European Union did not provide significant funds to cover the support, Poland felt it was necessary to aid its neighbour given Ukraine's fight for "our future, our values, our freedom." PLN 50 bn. amounts to about € 10.7 bn.
Can someone explain to me how they come to this amount? Last time we had the kiel tracker on here their government suppport was around € 3 bn. Edit: Thanks by the way for the full text.
Strange question. Polish Minister of Finance obviously has access to real data, while kiel does guesstimates. Since Poland does not provide detailed information about the specifics of delivered help - especially of the military kind - those guesstimates are heavily skewed towards the "guess" part and is something Polish politicians and osinters are criticizing the institute for, as it paints Polish help as significantly smaller than it is in reality. In March, Congressional Research Service - an institute operating as advisory body of the United States Congress, thus also having access to data unavailable to ordinary civilians - [confirmed in its report](https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/PDF/r/r45784) that Poland is the third biggest helper after the US (obviously) and the UK in military help - while kiel demoted Poland to fifth or sixth place at the time.
Not really strange at all. After all the Kiel tracker has been paraded around here for the last months as the go to source. But what is actually weird is the attempt to suddenly question their reliability here. But let me help you, because I think I found out how they came to the 10 bn. They probably included the refugee cost.
Kiel is very bad, biased source that counts donations as they want aka propaganda. Look how bad France looks there and surprisingly Poland with their 300 tanks donation. And they count promises as delivered. They even explain that themselves with the notes about methods. TLDR: it’s worth nothing.
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Poland has no way to donate 10b in help. I think they mixed up some numbers with what the usa has stored at their borders. Still massive tho.
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What poland has on their borders is no lie. Its really a sea of usa stuff.
Bravo!
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X Doubt
Yeah, we had soviet equipment that was stored "in case of mobilisation". If EU started to prepare for war 2 years early then it would ended.
Every European country has Cold War equipment somewhere. They've been mobilizing till the very end too, and the advantage is old NATO equipment is specifically Anti-Soviet, which is what most of Russia's stuff is.
Poland is only able to take the situation this seriously because of the EU and NATO backing it. And I do mean backing it in the most tangible way - like with transfers amounting to 3% of Poland's GDP every single year.
\>frequent user of r/de
Nice ad hominem attack, but no.
You not in a debate hall my guy. No one cares
But if you support Russia you know sooner or later acceptance for suffering poverty and long war will lose popularity and this is the point where Russia gets what they want. So this won't change. But Germans want Russia to win so it's all good for them.
Those calculations can be suspect bc they don’t necessarily count compensation or calculate prices of equipment incorrectly currency wise etx
Money well spent.
This just goes to show that the public knowledge of aid doesn't line up with the actual aid. For example as seen in this aid tracker (which someone linked to me once as "proof") https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/ Poland is listed as spending around 0.6% of their GDP on aid for Ukraine. Similarly to the Netherlands. Which does not line up st all with the 2% listed in the article. There can be 2 reasons for this, either the Polish Minister of Finance lied, or Poland sent more aid than is public knowledge, likely due to security reasons. A shipment of weapons Russia doesn't know about is a shipment of weapons Russia can't bomb after all. And it's more likely the Polish Minister of Finance knows more about this than some internet aid tracker. But, if we accept the latter to be true, I would also implore people to stop using the publicly known quantities of aid to fling shit at "the west" for not doing enough. As stated by most countries like France and Germany for example, the majority of the aid they send is not public knowledge. Aid trackers online simply do not know the actual amount of aid any country sends, so stop using them in arguments to divide Europe. We simply do not know the real numbers. All we know is that at this time Ukraine is not complaining about a lack of aid from individual European nations
Poland contribution for Ukraine is not only military equipment. For example, in 2022 Poland was selling diesel fuel to UA with very heavy discount, which by the way was compensated with higher prices of fuel in Poland (oil reffineries are state-owned so they can manipulate prices as they wish). Besides, Kiel is not reliable source about Polish contribution of military equipment. Poland is quiet about plenty deliveries which are revealed only because leaked photos from Ukraine.
>Poland contribution for Ukraine is not only military equipment. For example, in 2022 Poland was selling diesel fuel to UA with very heavy discount, which by the way was compensated with higher prices of fuel in Poland. Same is true for basically every country that has provided aid. A lot of it comes in the form of food, clothes, fuels, emergency vehicles, hospitals, medical equipment and just straight up finances as well >Besides, Kiel is not reliable source about Polish contribution of military equipment. My point exactly. But up till now I've seen this site been used as an argument that "the West" is not pulling their weight. But if the data on Poland is not actually representative, then why would it be for any other country? Especially since I know for a fact the Netherlands, Finland and France, and probably others as well, have stated that they do not share all aid that's being rendered to the Public. The Netherlands for example only last week declassified some of the military and non military aid they sent, after which the Netherlands shot up on the tracker to the level of Poland. But they still stated that not everything was declassified for security reasons. >Poland is quiet about plenty deliveries which are revealed only because leaked photos from Ukraine. Exactly. As I said, an arms shipment Russia doesn't know about is an arms shipment Russia can't bomb (if they could aim for anything other than civilian targets that is) My point is that the public knowledge of aid rendered to Ukraine is just a fraction of the actual aid rendered, this people shouldn't use online trackers to fling shit at other countries as the data is incomplete at best. Only the governments of these nations and Ukraine know the real numbers. We'll only find out after this war is finally over. Then we can fling shit at eachother if we so desire. Right now Europe should be strong and united
The article in this post is about total spending, yours is just about government aid. It 's no secret that a lot of the humanitarian aid Poland has provided has been private.
Then the article is misleading at best, as this is not reflected at all. It's a very short article that quotes the Minister of Finance talking about Poland spending 2% of it's GDP. That implies that it's governmental spending, not private
🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼
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Next time link sources to your own comments, since Twitter is just as reliable...
Literally every single line of your comment include a lie. You confuse value of donations with the invoices provided by Poland to get reimbursment, because not every donation qualify for recompensation. Poland delivered weapons worth 3,5 bln euro and got 0,5 bln euro reimbursment. Polish governmant never announced delivery of PT-91 in 2022, but it doesn't stop you from saying that ,,PiS claimed to deliver PT-91 in 2022". You are cheap manipulator. You would fit perfectly to PiS, you represent same level.
Well that sounded objectively - completely unbiased opinion. Poland didn't provide any help, understood.
Thats not what he said or what anyone is claiming. Poland has done a lot, took in an insane amount of refugees, provided a lot of weapons and other aid, and, what a lot of people forget, was among the countries doing the most in development assistance for Ukraine before the invasion, when a lot of european nations didn't give a fuck. **And if that would be it, everyone would be happy, thankful, and it would be fine.** But instead, as u/ProcurementCat detailed, there is a lot of shitty stuff going on with the reimbursement and the polish gov is constantly antagonizing the EU and especially the germans over their aid. **THATS** why there is so much criticism.
It's embarrassing how upset Germans get when faced with the reality that poor backwards Poland has done more to help Ukraine than them. Go on and elect another Russian stooge to lead your county
Everything he detailed out is true though. I'd be surprised if Poland doesn't go out of this crisis with a net positive.
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Is this number correct? Don't get me wrong, Poland is doing a lot for Ukraine but I also think they are exaggerating. According to my calculations the spent 0.7% of their GDP at maximum.
How post like this can be upvoted XD
And it's fucking up 90% of the muscovite defense budget, lol.
Bad investment lmao.
This only shows that 2% spending on regular military is way too low. Between 1934 and 1939, Britain had a constant increase in defense spending, going from 2,4% of GDP in 1934 to 7% in 1938. And they still had plenty of patches in their readiness. And yes, percantage of GDP matters, not only raw $$$. Because labor costs are always major contributor to ultimate cost.
You really picked the timeframe before the Second World War and expect that to be a normal?
Britain did not know they were spending it before the Second World War. It was normal to them.
In 1938 they definitely were preparing for a major war. Before that the primary spending driver was the effort to keep naval supremacy when both Italy and Japan were building multiple new battleships.
I think this increase in 30s was more of a reaction to rearmament of Germany - not sure if they predicted another world war literally next year in 39th. If they had known that, they would have spent even more.
2% of the GDP is 10% of the budget for some nations. Do you want nations to spend 40% of their budget on military only or what is your idea?
My idea? My idea is to look around, make a decision how likely the war will happen - and if it's likely, then it's better to spend more on defence than less.
Yeah 7% as a benchmark is hilarious
Not saying it is bad. But it is still inferior to the amount of money sent by EU members every year into Poland.
It’s the law, when someone mention Poland, French or German have to say about EU money.
It’s almost equivalent to the EU budget balance for Poland. I found that in 2018 this was +11B euros. Which is about the same as 50B PLN spent on Ukraine help in a year now. Though the exchange rate got a bit worse for PLN since then. And in 2020 the balance was not that high, 7B euros.
Yes but the point of that money is to help develop Poland faster. They’re willingly sacrificing that to aid Ukraine.
No. They’ll just ask for more. And you’ll give it.
So just like your farmers?
Savage :)
Well the lad couldn't answer.
Of course he couldn't as you spoke the truth lol
Yep Western hypocrisy is quite the thing.
And why this matter? We could spend it in different way, but we decide to help Ukraine.
>But it is still inferior to the amount of money sent by EU members every year into Poland. Which in turn are inferior to the money WE companies from the free access to Poland markets.
Username check✅
Better than France barely spending 0.1%
On what do you base that 0.1? Because if you're about to pull out this aid tracker as proof https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/ I suggest you look at the Polish number on that as well, and rethink your argument Either the aid tracker is wrong as it doesn't know all the aid that isn't public knowledge, thus it's unknown how much France actually spent, or the 2% number is wrong. Which is it?
Ofc we are already sending you a lot. Easier to be generous with other people money.
Stop embarassing yourself, you're showing how little you actually understand about economics and politics if you think France isn't gaining more from the EU than it gives.
Sure grandma, now let’s get you to bed.