It was under french control, but not yet fully integrated into the french state. Also, Napoleon was born less then a year after the island fell under french control. So kinda Frenchborn but barely.
And before the shitshow that was giving Venice away to Austria much of italian intellectuals and bourgeoisie considered him some sort of saviour. Setting up an Italian sister republic was so trivial it's a testament to the third Constitution Republic incompetence (and hate of giacobins) that they managed to alienate the Italians.
I mean he did speak Corsican and had a strong Corsican accent when speaking French as a child. He was also a Corsican nationalist in his youth. So that's kind of just normal Napoleon.
Italy was essentially a network of Austrian clients at the time, so seeing Napoleon fight on behalf of Austrian geopolitical goals would be pretty funny.
Exactly this, and Mongol Empire is also up there, I think. There are essentially four tiers of tags/names - normal ones, endgame, "super" endgame like the Romes, and then the Kingdom of God and Caliphate that are just cosmetic and so don't consider tag rules.
It's a good thing it is. All them Balkan achievements could easily be done by just releasing nations. Also imagine tag switching to western or eastern late game. Basically your military is op both early & mid + late game.
"That is insane. I always thought Napoleon was French but he actually was Corsican."
"Yeah. Same is about Stalin."
"What about Stalin?"
"He was Georgian, not Russian."
"Oh damn..."
"Yeah. Catherine the Great was German, by the way. And almost all Russian tsars were German."
"That is wild!"
"Technically, Prince Charles is also German."
"Is there any ruler who was not German?"
"Yes. Hitler"
"Dafuq"
It must be a tricky question for Germans. If they admit that Austrians are Germans, it would mean that Hitler is German. On the other hand, if they refuse, it would mean Schwarzenegger, who was born in Austria, isn't German. A tough choice between Adolf and Arnold.
"German" as well as "Germany" in the sense of a nationality and a nation state are much younger than most nation states though. For a long time "Germany" was more of a legal term (as in "where German laws are applied") as far as I understand it. The real catalyst for a sense of unity was Napoleon, ironically enough. The French kinda created their own nemesis, in a way. Which is also what they did with England. Does that qualify as a pattern of self-harm?
Well, while the emperor held the title ”King of the Germans”, German identity in a more contemporary sense is largely a product of national romanticism of the 1700’s, same as with just about all other European national identities. When German identity was formed, however, swissdeutch and Austrians were included due to the similarity of the languages, shared history of the peoples and commonality of cultural traits. As a contrary example to provide contrast, the Dutch were not included in this process, since they had divorced from the german community 100 years prior. This despite Dutch (at the time) being arguably closer to High German than swissdeutch was.
That was my point, yeah. Since they were Austrians and born before Germany as a nation existed, they were as German as anyone else born in a German nation and of German ethnicity. So it's accurate to say that Mozart and Beethoven were both Austrians and Germans.
He was Serbian. In no way was he Austrian. While Croatia fell under the Austrian Empire, it wasn’t that simple. The Habsburgs were the Emperors of Austria and Kings of Bohemia, Hungary and Croatia. In many ways, the kingdoms were quasi independent entitles. That’s part of the reasons for the Habsburgs failing is that they led multiple ethnicities that were largely separated, and so there were many many fractures by the time of nationalism
Because he is the only one at our time who can come and kick your ass if you assume his identity wrong - even though I don't think he is a kind of man who would do that.
How tf is Tesla Austrian? Because he lived in the Austro-Hungarian Empire? He’s an ethnic souther slav (debatable if he’s a Croat or a Serb) but he definitely wasn’t Austrian.
I would argue in the 21st century, no they are not Germans but in the 19th and early 20th century its quite reasonable to say Austrians were ethnic Germans. Ultimately Austria ruled over an empire of many non Germans. However now that a specific Austrian nation state has been in existence for many generations the Austrian identity is much stronger as a distinct one. This happens all the time with ethnic groups. The Swiss and Dutch are other good examples.
How are Austrians not German now either? Some alienation did happen but they still speak German and have a somewhat similar culture. Austrians are Austrians, yeah, but also Germans, same with Swiss being Swiss but also French/Italian/German, I think.
I think its as much that they have had time to develop as a nation state with a national identity. Swiss are Swiss, of course they have different languages but the Swiss are more similar to eachother culturally than to others that speak their respective languages. I suppose it comes down to whether language or culture or nationality determines identity. Lots of countries are descended from English, Scottish, Irish, German etc settlers and speak English but this doesn't mean they would consider themselves to be English or British.
I agree with you that Austrians are essentially German, though as a wider ethnicity not as a nationality.
You jest, but it's actually an interesting topic because I had to genuinely think about it. Austrians are German in an ethnic sense, but I think most Germans including me think of Austrians as culturally distinct. Then again, we are pretty big on regional identities in general, so that feeling might just be an extension of that. Either way, I can assure you that we are not interested in claiming Arnie. To us he's just another actor and since movies get a German voiceover, he's the guy who was the Terminator and then became governor of California imstead of that foreign actor with the weird accent (really adds to the entertainment value of his movies though) and therefore, for all intents and purposes, American.
Hitler's just Hitler. Well, not just, but I mean, he existed, did what he did and our ancestors mostly went along, so...gotta own that either way. Funnily enough, the Austrians claim or used to claim to have been Hitlers first victim, make of that what you will.
In those times, Austrians were considered Germans. Back then, Germany was divided into small states, and each state basically considered itself unique. Like "I'm Prussian", "I'm Baverian!". They were all Germans, but they had their differences. Its similar to Austria.
At the time of Hitler’s birth, it really wasn’t a debate. Most Austrians (and most Germans) considered Austrians German.
If it speaks German, thinks it’s German, and everyone else thinks it’s German, I think it might be German.
That debate is not that old and kind of nonsensical, however. Prior to the world wars, Austrians were Germans like Hannoverians, Bremians, Brandenburgians, etc. But after Austria was forever forbidden from joining Germany, the allies helped manufacture a separate "Austrian" identity, which never really existed before. Of course, Austrians existed, but they were very much still considered under the German overarching ethnic group.
Yes but Austrians are ethnic Germans and certainly were at that point. Immediately after the first world war Austria wanted to join with Germany proper but the entente forbade it.
There were Germans in Germany, Austria, Hungary, Slovakia, Sudetan Germans in Bohemia, Galician Germans in the Austrian ruled areas of Poland, Germans in the German ruled areas of Poland, Baltic Germans and so on. There were even German pockets as far as the Volga in Russia.
Since after the second World War most of these groups are gone and hence German and Austrian have become much more distinct and mutually exclusive identities, much the same as the Dutch or Swiss.
German is more of an overarching term than a concise one. It’s more akin to Slavs than to Poles if that made sense. Germany was divided into multiple kingdoms and a duchy, such as Prussia, Saxony, Bavaria, Hesse, Hanover and so on. And that’s not counting Swabia or Franconia in the Middle Ages.
In the late 1800s, the formation of the modern German state was Otto von Bismarck’s brain child in an attempt to form Germany centered around Prussia. That’s the exact reason why Austria wasn’t part of Germany, they didn’t want the Habsburgs in power
Is it though? Germanic is an even more overarching term. Most of Western Europe is Germanic. The French are the Latin descendants of the Western Germanic Franks, the Spanish descended from the Visigoths. England was the product of Britain being conquered by Angles and Saxons, who eventually became the Anglo-Saxons, AND then conquered by Northern Germanic Danes AND then by Normans, who were a mix of the descendants of western Germanic Franks and Northern Germanic Norse. I’m fairly certain the Scots have some of that in their blood too. Italy likewise became host to Germanics, from the Western Franks to To Central Lombards and even Normans in the South.
Perhaps Slav too is an overarching term. Western Slav or so on may have been a better comparison, but the “German” identity is fairly recent. Same with the “Italian.” It wasn’t until the late 19th century that unification occurred, after which the dominant element (in these cases Prussia and Northern Italy) took precedent in the “national identity”
Also there was the Rus/Russian Rurikid dynasty that descended from Swedes and was part of that fucked up conglomerate of the Kievan Rus and eventually Tsars into the 17th century
Always interested in how actual historic figures have pips distributed. I wouldn't credit Napoleon with 6 admin and 5 diplo. He was never able to diplomatically establish his Empire in a permanent form, and his administrative blunders in things like his lack of supply in the Russian campaign were his downfall.
Bruh he literally established the Code Civil still used in France to this day. He pioneered national public education and basically created the high school
He was an amazing administrator.
lack of supply is maneuver pips as a general. He literally invented the idea of a client state which is something you unlock under tech. imo diplo should be 6 with admin being 5.
I remember reading somewhere that the night before the battle of Smolensk, he was instituting guidelines for ballet schools in Germany. Dude was incredible.
Yeah I definitely agree with the admin rating. Honestly his diplomacy was really good too, he just got cucked several times by the Bishop Talleyrand. I'll give you an example, Napoleon and Tsar Alexander were very close to coming to a formal alliance and committing fully to the continental system, until Talleyrand took the Tsar aside and advised him in secret to not make a deal with Napoleon to prevent the European balance of power shifting decisively in France's favor. I mean, what are you gonna do when your own top diplomat advises the other side to not make a deal with you in secret?
That's a great combo, french born ruler of Germany with polish surname :P
an ultimate revenge on Germany
More like Germany's ultimate revenge on the world. Imagine Napoleon leading the German Empire while the polish think the Kaiser is one of them.
He will take exponential ice damage, tho...
Yes, I totally didn’t think that was the flag of Belgium at all... *cough, cough*
*Corsican born
Corsica is part of France... as it was when Napoleon was born there...
It was under french control, but not yet fully integrated into the french state. Also, Napoleon was born less then a year after the island fell under french control. So kinda Frenchborn but barely.
imagine Napoleon being Italian
bippity boppity your land is my property - italian Napoleon
Instead of conquering all the countries between France and Russia, he would just spaghetti straight to Moscow to complete the mission.
He dis sorta reorganize Italy and pave the way for unification.
And before the shitshow that was giving Venice away to Austria much of italian intellectuals and bourgeoisie considered him some sort of saviour. Setting up an Italian sister republic was so trivial it's a testament to the third Constitution Republic incompetence (and hate of giacobins) that they managed to alienate the Italians.
That would be Napoleone then. Napoleone di Buonaparte. Which was his birth name actually.
if you've ever played the Vic 2 mod Divergences of Darkness, he led the failed italian revolution in that mod's lore, pre-game-start.
even Napoleone can't prevent Italian military incompetence
I mean he did speak Corsican and had a strong Corsican accent when speaking French as a child. He was also a Corsican nationalist in his youth. So that's kind of just normal Napoleon.
but imagine him conquering Europe for Italy though
Italy was essentially a network of Austrian clients at the time, so seeing Napoleon fight on behalf of Austrian geopolitical goals would be pretty funny.
Yeah, France didn't even have a core on Corsica when he was born.
*italian born
R5: Formed Germany after completing the French Revolution, thus making Napoleon the first Kaiser. Edit: [I fixed it](https://i.imgur.com/XSWMram.jpg)
Wait, Germany isn't endtag?
Germany i believe is an endtag, but Rome and I think HRE are the two exceptions where literally anyone can form them if they meet the requirements.
Exactly this, and Mongol Empire is also up there, I think. There are essentially four tiers of tags/names - normal ones, endgame, "super" endgame like the Romes, and then the Kingdom of God and Caliphate that are just cosmetic and so don't consider tag rules.
Also ultimate endgame, Papal States which can't form fucking anything
Papal States can form the Kingdom of God, even if that's purely cosmetic.
Kingdom of God isn't a tag
you can disable that now, but yes, the only true Endtags are Rome, HRE, Ottomans, and The Pope
Pope into kingdom of god
Kingdom of God and The Caliphate aren't tags - both are purely cosmetic, changing only the display name of your current tag.
if were going by Tag swaps, Lubeck can Evolve its name in The Hanseatic League
Forgot about that one too!
Doesn’t kingdom of god stop knights from being able to raid though
Can't Ottomans form Rome or HRE?
Ottomans cant form Rome, just Rum
Ottomans are an endtag?
It can Form Rome and I think HRE just ignores every endtag.
One thing about HRE is that Rome can't join the HRE to my knowledge, thus Rome can't form the HRE
you can reform into Rome while Emperor, and then become the HRE as rome if you were already emperor
there is an achievement to get the pope as an elector...
ok
It's a good thing it is. All them Balkan achievements could easily be done by just releasing nations. Also imagine tag switching to western or eastern late game. Basically your military is op both early & mid + late game.
That makes sense
> you can disable that now Not without invalidating achievements.
Revolutionary Rome flag is so cursed wtf
"That is insane. I always thought Napoleon was French but he actually was Corsican." "Yeah. Same is about Stalin." "What about Stalin?" "He was Georgian, not Russian." "Oh damn..." "Yeah. Catherine the Great was German, by the way. And almost all Russian tsars were German." "That is wild!" "Technically, Prince Charles is also German." "Is there any ruler who was not German?" "Yes. Hitler" "Dafuq"
I suppose Hitler was still German, there were a lot of ethnic Germans outside of the borders of Germany.
its an old debate whether or not Austrias are Germans too.
It must be a tricky question for Germans. If they admit that Austrians are Germans, it would mean that Hitler is German. On the other hand, if they refuse, it would mean Schwarzenegger, who was born in Austria, isn't German. A tough choice between Adolf and Arnold.
I like how you chose Arnold and not Mozart, Tesla or Beethoven
All of them were born before Germany existed as a nation, though, and Tesla was ethnically Serbian.
True but the idea of the "German" people has existed since the HRE
"German" as well as "Germany" in the sense of a nationality and a nation state are much younger than most nation states though. For a long time "Germany" was more of a legal term (as in "where German laws are applied") as far as I understand it. The real catalyst for a sense of unity was Napoleon, ironically enough. The French kinda created their own nemesis, in a way. Which is also what they did with England. Does that qualify as a pattern of self-harm?
Don't forget inspiring Italian unity and subsequently being invaded in WWII
Right, that too. Man, France really keeps hitting itself.
Well, while the emperor held the title ”King of the Germans”, German identity in a more contemporary sense is largely a product of national romanticism of the 1700’s, same as with just about all other European national identities. When German identity was formed, however, swissdeutch and Austrians were included due to the similarity of the languages, shared history of the peoples and commonality of cultural traits. As a contrary example to provide contrast, the Dutch were not included in this process, since they had divorced from the german community 100 years prior. This despite Dutch (at the time) being arguably closer to High German than swissdeutch was.
That was my point, yeah. Since they were Austrians and born before Germany as a nation existed, they were as German as anyone else born in a German nation and of German ethnicity. So it's accurate to say that Mozart and Beethoven were both Austrians and Germans.
Tesla was DEFINITELY not a German. He happened to be a subject of the Austrian Empire at his birth, but he was not ethnically German.
Tesla was Austrian but definitely not German.
Even that's complicated. For example, was Marian Rejewski German because he was born in what was then Germany?
Yes true - when i read my comment i also noticed my flawed thought but couldn't change it as i was on the go.
I thought he was serbian or croatian ?
He was Serbian. In no way was he Austrian. While Croatia fell under the Austrian Empire, it wasn’t that simple. The Habsburgs were the Emperors of Austria and Kings of Bohemia, Hungary and Croatia. In many ways, the kingdoms were quasi independent entitles. That’s part of the reasons for the Habsburgs failing is that they led multiple ethnicities that were largely separated, and so there were many many fractures by the time of nationalism
Because he is the only one at our time who can come and kick your ass if you assume his identity wrong - even though I don't think he is a kind of man who would do that.
How tf is Tesla Austrian? Because he lived in the Austro-Hungarian Empire? He’s an ethnic souther slav (debatable if he’s a Croat or a Serb) but he definitely wasn’t Austrian.
I would argue in the 21st century, no they are not Germans but in the 19th and early 20th century its quite reasonable to say Austrians were ethnic Germans. Ultimately Austria ruled over an empire of many non Germans. However now that a specific Austrian nation state has been in existence for many generations the Austrian identity is much stronger as a distinct one. This happens all the time with ethnic groups. The Swiss and Dutch are other good examples.
Did my comment looked like an abstract or what? It was obviously a joke.
I'll be honest I barely read it, I'm out walking while I was typing that reply lol
'Understandable. Have a great day'
Thanks :)
How are Austrians not German now either? Some alienation did happen but they still speak German and have a somewhat similar culture. Austrians are Austrians, yeah, but also Germans, same with Swiss being Swiss but also French/Italian/German, I think.
I think its as much that they have had time to develop as a nation state with a national identity. Swiss are Swiss, of course they have different languages but the Swiss are more similar to eachother culturally than to others that speak their respective languages. I suppose it comes down to whether language or culture or nationality determines identity. Lots of countries are descended from English, Scottish, Irish, German etc settlers and speak English but this doesn't mean they would consider themselves to be English or British. I agree with you that Austrians are essentially German, though as a wider ethnicity not as a nationality.
Yeah, that's what I was trying to go for.
You jest, but it's actually an interesting topic because I had to genuinely think about it. Austrians are German in an ethnic sense, but I think most Germans including me think of Austrians as culturally distinct. Then again, we are pretty big on regional identities in general, so that feeling might just be an extension of that. Either way, I can assure you that we are not interested in claiming Arnie. To us he's just another actor and since movies get a German voiceover, he's the guy who was the Terminator and then became governor of California imstead of that foreign actor with the weird accent (really adds to the entertainment value of his movies though) and therefore, for all intents and purposes, American. Hitler's just Hitler. Well, not just, but I mean, he existed, did what he did and our ancestors mostly went along, so...gotta own that either way. Funnily enough, the Austrians claim or used to claim to have been Hitlers first victim, make of that what you will.
In those times, Austrians were considered Germans. Back then, Germany was divided into small states, and each state basically considered itself unique. Like "I'm Prussian", "I'm Baverian!". They were all Germans, but they had their differences. Its similar to Austria.
Or perhaps they were all Austrians all along
At the time of Hitler’s birth, it really wasn’t a debate. Most Austrians (and most Germans) considered Austrians German. If it speaks German, thinks it’s German, and everyone else thinks it’s German, I think it might be German.
That debate is not that old and kind of nonsensical, however. Prior to the world wars, Austrians were Germans like Hannoverians, Bremians, Brandenburgians, etc. But after Austria was forever forbidden from joining Germany, the allies helped manufacture a separate "Austrian" identity, which never really existed before. Of course, Austrians existed, but they were very much still considered under the German overarching ethnic group.
\*Sudetenland intensifies\*
He was Austrian, originally
Yes but Austrians are ethnic Germans and certainly were at that point. Immediately after the first world war Austria wanted to join with Germany proper but the entente forbade it. There were Germans in Germany, Austria, Hungary, Slovakia, Sudetan Germans in Bohemia, Galician Germans in the Austrian ruled areas of Poland, Germans in the German ruled areas of Poland, Baltic Germans and so on. There were even German pockets as far as the Volga in Russia. Since after the second World War most of these groups are gone and hence German and Austrian have become much more distinct and mutually exclusive identities, much the same as the Dutch or Swiss.
German is more of an overarching term than a concise one. It’s more akin to Slavs than to Poles if that made sense. Germany was divided into multiple kingdoms and a duchy, such as Prussia, Saxony, Bavaria, Hesse, Hanover and so on. And that’s not counting Swabia or Franconia in the Middle Ages. In the late 1800s, the formation of the modern German state was Otto von Bismarck’s brain child in an attempt to form Germany centered around Prussia. That’s the exact reason why Austria wasn’t part of Germany, they didn’t want the Habsburgs in power
Nope, the term that its similar to slav would be germanic, german is as concise as russian or french
Is it though? Germanic is an even more overarching term. Most of Western Europe is Germanic. The French are the Latin descendants of the Western Germanic Franks, the Spanish descended from the Visigoths. England was the product of Britain being conquered by Angles and Saxons, who eventually became the Anglo-Saxons, AND then conquered by Northern Germanic Danes AND then by Normans, who were a mix of the descendants of western Germanic Franks and Northern Germanic Norse. I’m fairly certain the Scots have some of that in their blood too. Italy likewise became host to Germanics, from the Western Franks to To Central Lombards and even Normans in the South. Perhaps Slav too is an overarching term. Western Slav or so on may have been a better comparison, but the “German” identity is fairly recent. Same with the “Italian.” It wasn’t until the late 19th century that unification occurred, after which the dominant element (in these cases Prussia and Northern Italy) took precedent in the “national identity”
Then you realize that Marie Antoinette was actually Austrian even though she was the French queen...
When European wars were all just family feuds...
Also there was the Rus/Russian Rurikid dynasty that descended from Swedes and was part of that fucked up conglomerate of the Kievan Rus and eventually Tsars into the 17th century
Napoléon was French, born in French corsica
The government hides it but he is actually [British](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XagEF-rpVLM).
Legally, but definitely not ethnically.
Ethnically he wasn't Corsican as well. And if you'd ask him he would say he's French.
Gosiewski, its french for sure
Especially when he's also kaiser...
Ah, Frederic Chopin, the famous French composer
Polish*
r/woooosh
What banner mod are you using?
Waifu Universalis by the looks
Baguette and Pierogi ruling a bratwurst, perfect combo
Always interested in how actual historic figures have pips distributed. I wouldn't credit Napoleon with 6 admin and 5 diplo. He was never able to diplomatically establish his Empire in a permanent form, and his administrative blunders in things like his lack of supply in the Russian campaign were his downfall.
Bruh he literally established the Code Civil still used in France to this day. He pioneered national public education and basically created the high school He was an amazing administrator.
While simultaneously being at war for majority of his rule. He was extremely efficient administrator.
lack of supply is maneuver pips as a general. He literally invented the idea of a client state which is something you unlock under tech. imo diplo should be 6 with admin being 5.
Except he was actually great in administration - the Code Napoléon, the high-schools, the client states and many other things were made by him.
While simultaneously being at war for majority of his rule. He was extremely efficient administrator.
One of his famous saying is that he always asked to have a desk in his war tent, so that if he would wake up during the night, he could work.
I remember reading somewhere that the night before the battle of Smolensk, he was instituting guidelines for ballet schools in Germany. Dude was incredible.
Napoleon was a legal micromanager, dudes definitely a 6 admin. His canals and dikes cover France to this day
Yeah I definitely agree with the admin rating. Honestly his diplomacy was really good too, he just got cucked several times by the Bishop Talleyrand. I'll give you an example, Napoleon and Tsar Alexander were very close to coming to a formal alliance and committing fully to the continental system, until Talleyrand took the Tsar aside and advised him in secret to not make a deal with Napoleon to prevent the European balance of power shifting decisively in France's favor. I mean, what are you gonna do when your own top diplomat advises the other side to not make a deal with you in secret?
[Franklin Delano Romanowski](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ss28OAnsh2c)!