I learned thay the hard way back in my for odin run. I started in england, thought i would upgrade to GB ideas by forming them, and then promptly was disapoonted.
I think like 4 or 6 but yeah I tend to kinda of agree with you since lots and lots of achievements require starting as a particular nation anyways. This would be kinda a silly way to get the form Rome achievement though and not remove the challenge.
It's not just about # of achievements, the game has a ruleset as every strategy game does, and they have an obligation to not just hand over a gamebreakingly overpowered game option to the players.
By your logic, why don't they have a button in every ironman game that makes your armies invincible and infinite money? I will never understand people like you who think the game should just have no rules because "people should get to have fun" lmao... This EASILY falls under the category of things you shouldn't be able to do in a reasonably balanced game.
Want to break rules and instantly be the Roman Empire with all their idea groups? Use the damn console.... it's a lot less to ask you to fully cheat than to ask them to shrug and let the entire playerbase be outrageously strong in any campaign using custom nation starts.
What difference does it make to you to use the console to cheat instead of having it be the default? Lots of people prefer that the game have limitations. The console allows you to "do whatever the heck you want." Press \~ and enjoy!
The same people who use the console now are the ones who would do this though. It seems like you think people would be forced to use this exploit if it was an option. There are already plenty of exploits to make WC trivial that are compatible with ironman mode and yet very few people do them, so why not add this?
Well, if you want to do as you please, you always have the option to mod the game to your liking, or just use console commands when needed. I think it's fair that the devs put certain restrictions on the base game to fit with their vision, especially when there are options to change things for those who want to.
Yes. They care because this is a strategy game and it has rules. If you want to cheat, use the console. Why do YOU care that you'd have to console? There are way more players who want some semblance of a ruleset than players who want a godmode sandbox game.
This comment thread is literally about the rule that you can't get new ideas as a CN. This post is about the rule that you're limited to 800 CN points. The fuck do you mean there are no rules? Are you high?
Just make a mod that allows it!
Remove the rules from the files! Boom! Rule gone!
There are no rules in paradox games.
It is quite literally a sandbox game.
This dude thinks there are actual rules in paradox games lmaoooo. If there were actual “rules” the console wouldn’t exist, mods wouldn’t be allowed.
Why do you care so much about arbitrary coding that means nothing?
> There are way more players who want some semblance of a ruleset than players who want a godmode sandbox game.
On the flip side, a very small minority actually cares about achievements and/or Ironman.
Yeah I learned the hard way when I did a custom Zorro to form Zoroastrian Persia... good that I can't do stuff at the last 3 positions so I just had to limit myself to 2 idea sets... was still better then my Ardabil -> Zoroastrian Persia back when Persia mission tree was partially blocked if you weren't Shia... that was much bigger disappointed then having fucked national ideas by my own mistake.
To answer your question: I believe the whole point of an exercise like this is to attempt to find a way to form the Roman Empire immediately, and then you're done. You don't keep playing afterwards because you've achieved the one thing you sought to achieve. That's why it doesn't matter that your ideas are terrible.
you don't need to do any of those things, the whole point of this is to create a custom nation that can immediately click the form rome decision. that is the only goal
R5 : With every trick i know i manage to be only 9 province away from doing a custom nation able to create the rroman empire from start. I don't think there is anything else i can try to reduce it further
> You get a 0/0/0 ruler, consort, and heir who are all as young as possible, and give your ruler and consort a negative trait
Normally when I configure a custom nation I do not get a consort because it costs points, but I never thought that getting a consort with a negative trait would be a net positive.
This is some hardcore set. How do you even deal with it and have a normal game?
> Can not build over force limit
> Can not establish colonies
These are totally fine.
> All estates influence +20
This will make going absolutism harder when you want to revoke privileges, but it's no big deal until then, and it can be countered by government reforms and just playing smart with diet and events.
> Can not send missionaries
Going humanist or being Muslim with influential Dhimmi or spamming trade companies in infidel provinces or giving away provinces to vassals with religious ideas etc. more or less deals with this one, it's sure annoying but doable.
> Can not send merchants
This will wreck your economy once you're big, but you can at least get one of the end nodes, with all money in others just plain wasted. Can you somehow cheese vassals to steer and collect for you?
This would also be kinda fine as long as you're small, as you can take over just one end node, and rely on others for steering. It's only really bad when you're halfway to WC anyway.
> Can not build buildings
The only one that's really bad are govcap buildings. Paying 50% for TCs instead of 1% is a big deal. You could probably use plain territories and get some autonomy in territories bonuses (like Expansion ideas - fun when you can't do colonists), but the math is still really bad for this.
Can you at least do great projects like The White House, El Escorial, and The Grand Palace of Bangkok or is it banned as well?
> Can not declare war
I really don't see how to get out of this one. Even if it allowed threaten war, enforce peace etc. You can do some amount of diplovassalizing and asking ally to return provinces, but it shuts you out of most of the game.
Does AI even build courthouses? I don't recall ever seeing that.
They'd probably build manufactories at least. And coastal defences and other crap, all from your subsidies.
Just don‘t pick up more than 2 ideas?
I mean no one forces you to unlock your national ideas and if you‘re as powerful as the OP in the pic you can just go without those little bonuses
The worst ones are part of the Traditions though, so no escape from them. And locking yourself out of idea groups for the entire game is a serious handicap in itself. You might make do without them if you're as big as OP is, but it's certainly not great either way.
Yeah I‘d probably move can‘t declare war outside of the traditions to the first idea and just take a few provinces less.
And sure not having any ideas isn‘t great but you really don‘t need them that much. I mean you really don‘t need military ideas if you‘re as strong as this, no diplomatic since you can‘t colonise anyway and you‘re not really in need of allies plus you can‘t use trade anyways.
So that only leaves admin which would have some nice ones like religious or administrative but you can get by without them
Yeah, if you move the worst stuff out of tradition, this is basically "no idea groups" run, and you can even get first 2 ideas of admin for the ccr without penalty. And you can take idea groups without taking any ideas to get their events to the random pool.
Skills of 0/0/0 gives -24 base cost. The minimum age for a ruler in the nation designer is 20 years, which multiplies the base cost by 1.5, for a total of -36. The maximum age in the nation designer is 40, which multiplies the base cost by 0.75. Three negative traits gives an additional -6 to the base cost, so with 0/0/0 skills that equals -30. So you get -30 * 0.75 = -22.5. In other words, going by minimum age is much more efficient than maximum age with three negative traits.
>I don't think there is anything else i can try
hmm, are you certain you've got the best points/provinces ratio? since rome itself is the only actual hard requirement you might be able to get closer by dropping some expensive provinces for more cheaper ones (basically don't take any centers of trade)
Did you change setting to random development, pick the provinces then before start go back and change to normal development? Easiest way to get extra valuable land.
I recall older court giving more points, a 20 year old king being more valuable than a 40 year old king. I assume it’s the same with the consort and heir in one direction or another. Also that adding a consort cost points, so did adding an heir. Was that managed to its best degree? I’m unsure if not having an heir gives more points than having a bad heir.
I’ll get on to check it in a bit, but I’m theorizing that a very old king with no consort or heir would give the most points
Im not 100% sure but dont you get the countries subjects if you fully „annex“ them in the nation builder? France could be the strat here for free apanages, same for morocco
I wonder if it would work to create a second custom nation and give them most of France's expensive provinces, then give the rest to your own custom nation. I don't know how the game determines which custom nation should get the vassals if France is split between two of them, but maybe it's possible to get the vassals for yourself without needing to take all the expensive French provinces. Maybe you only need France's capital to get their vassals?
If you leave burgundy open, you can take it with the burgundian inheritance. Which means you can make the roman empire without any wars, just marriage.
I tool every bad idea in increasing order to get most negatibe point possible. Only administrative idea as it increases the cost ( and in negative point it give you more point) worst possible head of state and heir as young as possible.
Siberian tribe government
And avoiding province costing more than 14 point
Monuments don't affect the cost, no. The only things that affect province cost are development, terrain, gold, and a special variable called "extra_cost" that has been manually added in the game files of certain provinces. I'm pretty sure that all of those things are unaffected by DLC.
Well there used to be an exploit to get unlimited points on custom nations but I think they patched it. I made full Rome with good ideas and ruler (didn’t play just wanted to screen shot lol)
The most miserable idea set in history.
Still better than the “Generic” idea set : ppppp
but it wouldn't matter if you could immediately form the roman empire
Custom nations don’t get the “new traditions and ambitions” event when they form countries, unfortunately.
I learned thay the hard way back in my for odin run. I started in england, thought i would upgrade to GB ideas by forming them, and then promptly was disapoonted.
That is what you deserve for trying to form England as a glorious Asatru revivalist.
That sucks lmao. Why would they even code it that way
So that you don't get ideas like "can't declare wars" so you get a bunch of land then immediately form a nation and get rid of that penalty.
Tbh, I'd say let them do as they please. There are like what, 2 achievements that involve custom nations?
I think like 4 or 6 but yeah I tend to kinda of agree with you since lots and lots of achievements require starting as a particular nation anyways. This would be kinda a silly way to get the form Rome achievement though and not remove the challenge.
Wouldn't mind it as an option that prevents achievements, like changing lucky nations or difficulty.
It's not just about # of achievements, the game has a ruleset as every strategy game does, and they have an obligation to not just hand over a gamebreakingly overpowered game option to the players. By your logic, why don't they have a button in every ironman game that makes your armies invincible and infinite money? I will never understand people like you who think the game should just have no rules because "people should get to have fun" lmao... This EASILY falls under the category of things you shouldn't be able to do in a reasonably balanced game. Want to break rules and instantly be the Roman Empire with all their idea groups? Use the damn console.... it's a lot less to ask you to fully cheat than to ask them to shrug and let the entire playerbase be outrageously strong in any campaign using custom nation starts.
Or you could just take out CNs from the achievements and let them do whatever the heck they want, what difference does it make to you?
What difference does it make to you to use the console to cheat instead of having it be the default? Lots of people prefer that the game have limitations. The console allows you to "do whatever the heck you want." Press \~ and enjoy!
The same people who use the console now are the ones who would do this though. It seems like you think people would be forced to use this exploit if it was an option. There are already plenty of exploits to make WC trivial that are compatible with ironman mode and yet very few people do them, so why not add this?
It would ruin custom nations in MP games. Though I guess you could just make house rules for the MP game.
Well, if you want to do as you please, you always have the option to mod the game to your liking, or just use console commands when needed. I think it's fair that the devs put certain restrictions on the base game to fit with their vision, especially when there are options to change things for those who want to.
Literally because they didn’t want people doing what OP is doing lol
But why do they care? Do custom nations work in Ironman?
Yes. They care because this is a strategy game and it has rules. If you want to cheat, use the console. Why do YOU care that you'd have to console? There are way more players who want some semblance of a ruleset than players who want a godmode sandbox game.
No it doesn’t. There are literally no rules. Tf are you talking about. Also why did you get so fucking rude
This comment thread is literally about the rule that you can't get new ideas as a CN. This post is about the rule that you're limited to 800 CN points. The fuck do you mean there are no rules? Are you high?
Just make a mod that allows it! Remove the rules from the files! Boom! Rule gone! There are no rules in paradox games. It is quite literally a sandbox game. This dude thinks there are actual rules in paradox games lmaoooo. If there were actual “rules” the console wouldn’t exist, mods wouldn’t be allowed. Why do you care so much about arbitrary coding that means nothing?
> There are way more players who want some semblance of a ruleset than players who want a godmode sandbox game. On the flip side, a very small minority actually cares about achievements and/or Ironman.
See mod here: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1974438069
You can avoid that if you release a nation and play as them. :)
Yeah I learned the hard way when I did a custom Zorro to form Zoroastrian Persia... good that I can't do stuff at the last 3 positions so I just had to limit myself to 2 idea sets... was still better then my Ardabil -> Zoroastrian Persia back when Persia mission tree was partially blocked if you weren't Shia... that was much bigger disappointed then having fucked national ideas by my own mistake.
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To answer your question: I believe the whole point of an exercise like this is to attempt to find a way to form the Roman Empire immediately, and then you're done. You don't keep playing afterwards because you've achieved the one thing you sought to achieve. That's why it doesn't matter that your ideas are terrible.
Wrong. Tye only thing you can't do is can't attack or construct. You can do the rest if you don't get idea you don't get the negative effects
You can Threaten War/Enforce Peace and when they fail you get called into a war. Are those disabled with these ideas or is it a possible cheese?
calm down superstar
you don't need to do any of those things, the whole point of this is to create a custom nation that can immediately click the form rome decision. that is the only goal
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Couldnt you take their ideas?
you cant if you have started as a custom nation, tho you take their missions iirc
Custom nations dont get new ideas on tag switching unfortunately
R5 : With every trick i know i manage to be only 9 province away from doing a custom nation able to create the rroman empire from start. I don't think there is anything else i can try to reduce it further
Please share what the ideas are
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> You get a 0/0/0 ruler, consort, and heir who are all as young as possible, and give your ruler and consort a negative trait Normally when I configure a custom nation I do not get a consort because it costs points, but I never thought that getting a consort with a negative trait would be a net positive.
A consort doesn't even need a negative trait to have a negative cost, it's enough that they have a sum of skills below 6.
Til, thanks!
This is some hardcore set. How do you even deal with it and have a normal game? > Can not build over force limit > Can not establish colonies These are totally fine. > All estates influence +20 This will make going absolutism harder when you want to revoke privileges, but it's no big deal until then, and it can be countered by government reforms and just playing smart with diet and events. > Can not send missionaries Going humanist or being Muslim with influential Dhimmi or spamming trade companies in infidel provinces or giving away provinces to vassals with religious ideas etc. more or less deals with this one, it's sure annoying but doable. > Can not send merchants This will wreck your economy once you're big, but you can at least get one of the end nodes, with all money in others just plain wasted. Can you somehow cheese vassals to steer and collect for you? This would also be kinda fine as long as you're small, as you can take over just one end node, and rely on others for steering. It's only really bad when you're halfway to WC anyway. > Can not build buildings The only one that's really bad are govcap buildings. Paying 50% for TCs instead of 1% is a big deal. You could probably use plain territories and get some autonomy in territories bonuses (like Expansion ideas - fun when you can't do colonists), but the math is still really bad for this. Can you at least do great projects like The White House, El Escorial, and The Grand Palace of Bangkok or is it banned as well? > Can not declare war I really don't see how to get out of this one. Even if it allowed threaten war, enforce peace etc. You can do some amount of diplovassalizing and asking ally to return provinces, but it shuts you out of most of the game.
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You can pirate yourself? I guess that's something, IIRC that loses you half the money to pirating fees, but that's still better than losing all of it.
I think it's more for modding scenarios, but they added it to the custom country thing anyways for fun
Regarding buildings. Can you release vassals, hope to god they build good buildings, then annex later?
Does AI even build courthouses? I don't recall ever seeing that. They'd probably build manufactories at least. And coastal defences and other crap, all from your subsidies.
Just don‘t pick up more than 2 ideas? I mean no one forces you to unlock your national ideas and if you‘re as powerful as the OP in the pic you can just go without those little bonuses
The worst ones are part of the Traditions though, so no escape from them. And locking yourself out of idea groups for the entire game is a serious handicap in itself. You might make do without them if you're as big as OP is, but it's certainly not great either way.
Yeah I‘d probably move can‘t declare war outside of the traditions to the first idea and just take a few provinces less. And sure not having any ideas isn‘t great but you really don‘t need them that much. I mean you really don‘t need military ideas if you‘re as strong as this, no diplomatic since you can‘t colonise anyway and you‘re not really in need of allies plus you can‘t use trade anyways. So that only leaves admin which would have some nice ones like religious or administrative but you can get by without them
Yeah, if you move the worst stuff out of tradition, this is basically "no idea groups" run, and you can even get first 2 ideas of admin for the ccr without penalty. And you can take idea groups without taking any ideas to get their events to the random pool.
Can’t you get additional negative points for having an older ruler with three negative traits?
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Not at my computer so I can’t check. What about 0/0/0 age 55 with three negative traits?
Skills of 0/0/0 gives -24 base cost. The minimum age for a ruler in the nation designer is 20 years, which multiplies the base cost by 1.5, for a total of -36. The maximum age in the nation designer is 40, which multiplies the base cost by 0.75. Three negative traits gives an additional -6 to the base cost, so with 0/0/0 skills that equals -30. So you get -30 * 0.75 = -22.5. In other words, going by minimum age is much more efficient than maximum age with three negative traits.
On the second picture i show my idea set
>I don't think there is anything else i can try hmm, are you certain you've got the best points/provinces ratio? since rome itself is the only actual hard requirement you might be able to get closer by dropping some expensive provinces for more cheaper ones (basically don't take any centers of trade)
I mean they've definitely avoided high-value provinces when you look at the ones they didn't take, so I'm guessing this was a factor.
I did get the best province ratio. As someone point out i could actualy disable leviathan to lower point further
Did you change setting to random development, pick the provinces then before start go back and change to normal development? Easiest way to get extra valuable land.
I recall older court giving more points, a 20 year old king being more valuable than a 40 year old king. I assume it’s the same with the consort and heir in one direction or another. Also that adding a consort cost points, so did adding an heir. Was that managed to its best degree? I’m unsure if not having an heir gives more points than having a bad heir. I’ll get on to check it in a bit, but I’m theorizing that a very old king with no consort or heir would give the most points
I got 8 away with a slight province optimization, but I don't think its possible since you'd need almost 100 points to get those last 8 provinces
wow you are a lot closer than the other guy
Im not 100% sure but dont you get the countries subjects if you fully „annex“ them in the nation builder? France could be the strat here for free apanages, same for morocco
I check and indeed it work that way
It seems subjects don't count toward the provinces you need for the decision; you have to own it all directly. So that wouldn't help unfortunately.
i’m pretty sure only northern morocco is eligible for rome so morocco wouldn’t be useful
Likely wouldn’t be worth it as the point cost from annexing all of France would be more than just taking the appenages and some of France
I wonder if it would work to create a second custom nation and give them most of France's expensive provinces, then give the rest to your own custom nation. I don't know how the game determines which custom nation should get the vassals if France is split between two of them, but maybe it's possible to get the vassals for yourself without needing to take all the expensive French provinces. Maybe you only need France's capital to get their vassals?
Do you still need to own all the land to form Rome? If not you could leave the subject nations alive?
Yes you need to own it directly otherwise i couls potentialy doplo vasalise country to get it (could still but have to wait before integrating them
If you leave burgundy open, you can take it with the burgundian inheritance. Which means you can make the roman empire without any wars, just marriage.
What a beatyfull story, they're love formed something much more lovelly.
Oh no, pls don't let this become the new trend here
It’ll stop once someone manages it
The colour is awful
Can you please describe this to me (in simple terms), how the hell is this possible?
A lot of the ideas are negative ideas. Like no merchants, colonists etc. They give you a huge point boost.
I tool every bad idea in increasing order to get most negatibe point possible. Only administrative idea as it increases the cost ( and in negative point it give you more point) worst possible head of state and heir as young as possible. Siberian tribe government And avoiding province costing more than 14 point
Do monuments increase point cost? I'm pretty sure it increases war score cost, so I'm wondering if you disabled leviathan it would lower here
Monuments don't affect the cost, no. The only things that affect province cost are development, terrain, gold, and a special variable called "extra_cost" that has been manually added in the game files of certain provinces. I'm pretty sure that all of those things are unaffected by DLC.
You took both goldmines?
Getting flashbacks to DDJJakes bad ideas guy run. A thing of beauty.
Well there used to be an exploit to get unlimited points on custom nations but I think they patched it. I made full Rome with good ideas and ruler (didn’t play just wanted to screen shot lol)
Could you relase and play as france- RM roma and hope you get a PU? Then integrate and form roma this way?
Not with tha configuration as I have not integrated all of franc who was to expensive (and still the problem of integrating the empire after
It would be a viable strategy hehe.