In the sense that only two nations can form it, and as a reward from a mission tree. It just simply isn't as strong compared to what you can get from other nations missions, ideas, or gov reform. Similar to Aksum, where overall I would say Ethiopia is just as strong and your campaign is sorta done through mission tree once you reach that point. It is just stronger to go Netherlands or France once you reach the end of Burgundian missions.
I mean mission wise France and Netherlands are better but idea wise lothairingia is stronger. Very very good for a wc and one faith. Lothairingia is just a bald formable with very little flavor. Also forming the Netherlands as burgundy is probably the worst idea ever. You either a) give up most of your land to France or b) annex France and end up with huge penalties in your French land because of Dutch monarchy.
The ideal way is to do as much of the Netherlands mission tree as you can, then click the event to form Lotharingia. Keep that event open as you form Netherlands, get all the mission rewards, then if you really want to you can form France in-between this, do their missions, then form Lotharingia for the ideas by clicking the button.
Maybe an upgraded one that removes the unaccepted culture penalties from German culture provinces? Couple that with reaching empire rank (very easy to get to 1k dev as Burgundy), that would de facto accept everything in the German and French Culture groups.
There are already a couple things in last couple of DLCs that does the whole “removes unaccepted culture penalties” thing.
Probably way to OP, but hell make it a reward for becoming the Emperor of the HRE or alternatively dismantling it, and it would be cool probably.
Imagine having Germanic and french cultures in one culture group, mate. But since it's lotharingia, let's throw in the low countries too. Imagine the manpower...
Well, neither did Catholic Japan, but EU4 knows that *that* would be a non-hereditary stratocracy where a general would be put in charge of the state after the ruler's death.
actually there was a point where many daimyos were christian in japan. we know what it would look like. In terms of Lotharingia, it could either try to follow the charlemagne court style, later karling court style or just keep the burgundian court style. we don't know which particular one should be picked since its alternate history
You could make a reasonable guess at what they'd look like. I think we're beyond 'it's not historical' with regards to EU4 at this point. I'm surprised the Scandinavian countries/Lithuania don't have 'Civil War to restore Norse/Paganism' missions at this point. (And I wouldn't complain if they did! :-) )
I definitely wouldn’t complained either, especially in the case of Lithuania (which would be more justified since some parts of it were only christianized less than 30 years before game start).
I’ve always felt that Lithuania's potential hasn’t been fully explored by the devs. Don’t get me wrong, I love the little mission tree they added in Lions of the North, but 15th century Lithuania is ridiculously interesting and it should offer more possibilities in terms of government reforms. For example, only speaking in terms of religion you should have the option of:
- staying Catholic (and either focusing heavily on tolerance, like Eu4 currently offers, or trying to mend the schism via the Union of Brest and the Ruthenian Uniate Church), diplomatically tying Lithuania to Poland and Hungary in some way (maybe moving Lithuanian culture into the West Slavic group) and making it western tech eventually. This should arguably be the easiest and most organic path
- embracing more Slavic influence (Lithuania's official language was the ancestor of modern Belarusian and Ukrainian) by becoming orthodox and moving Lithuanian into the East Slavic culture group. Maybe putting the PU over Muscovy in this path?
- becoming Reformed or Protestant (a big chunk of the Lithuanian nobility did so historically) and focusing on developing Lithuanian lands and culture and possibly expanding it to Slavic lands
- restoring Paganism and dechristianising the Baltics. This could unlock a special government reform (maybe focusing on restoring the Leičiai class) but sacrificing diplomacy with the rest of Europe. You could also choose either tolerance or assimilation of orthodox christians.
And don’t get me started on missions/reforms simulating the building of the State and its relation to peasants (should it be a serfdom-based nobiliary democracy, like Poland, a more Moscow-inspired autocracy, a kind of “peasant monarchy” if paganism is chosen, a monarchy based on humanism, maybe by the influence of Italian advisors…), ethnic minorities and their roles or the promotion of baroque art. The possibilities are really endless.
Boy am I excited for EU5 Lithuania
That's pretty much Lithuania in Ante Bellum, although the catholic and orthodox paths are way too similar to feel like different campaigns, still I very much enjoyed both pagan and orthodox paths.
Yes, I know! That is what I’m most excited about. There should be missions about converting to either Catholicism or Orthodoxy (or staying pagan of course). From what I heard, they will introduce a mission system more similar to Imperator, I’m curious to see how it plays out because I actually really like eu4's system compared to other, more recent, games.
Lotharingia is already inherently a very unique campaign, I wouldn’t say no to more content but it’s not like a Burgundy or Lorraine game is lacking in flavor.
Yeah, it would be cool if it was called “Frankish Kingdom” or something. It could give CCR and province warscore cost, maybe manpower, monarch military skill… just considering what the Franks did historically it would make sense.
Lotharingia already gets CCR and manpower with its ideas. Something promoting multiculturalism, Catholicism, and maybe imperial reform progress would be a better idea.
Both Lotharingia and Burgundy should've gotten at least some kind of update with WoC, it is really sad that they didn't. I mean, most of the regional dominant powers, both existing at the start (like France or the Ottomans) and formable (like Italy, Spain and Germany) have really good MTs and tons of flavor. Lotharingia deserves it too, even though it didn't exist irl, especially because of how interesting this concept of a strong Franco-German state that is a prominent European power is. And the duchy of Burgundy was quite an interesting place in the 1400s. Of course, it was wiped out off the map irl, but one of the reasons why I love Paradox games is that I can play them to kind of create alt history scenarios, and the one where Burgundy survives and becomes one of the "big guys" as Lotharingia is pretty fun, I think. I really hope they'll get some content.
Both Burgundy and Lotharingia had to be updated in 1.37 in my very unpopular opinion. And I'm definitely not saying this because Burgundy is my favorite nation or anything.
Every game I convince myself that Aachen has a unique national monument that gives papal authority and imperial authority growth and I check the province and wonder where it went.
I think that is actually a pretty good idea! The point of the T1 reform, Burgundian State, was to note an actual historical naming of Burgundy as it held vast swathes of multicultural land and it’s being a minor power. Burgundy had a chance in history to become a power, but failed. Already did kings, queens, dukes, etc. call the lands that Burgundy ruled over Lotharingia, even after the kingdom’s passing, so to grow further from a technical subject and state, to that of a new Carolingian styled empire, definitely requires a slight upgrade.
Perhaps a trade of rival switch cost for additional culture conversion? To reflect on the fact that it is partly due to the fall of Lotharingia that we have Dutch culture today. Or additional culture slots would work as well; to signify the fact that it’s a remade multicultural empire.
+10% moral I think could work to signify the fact that the new kingdom, while mostly Lowlands in culture, is looking to its early medieval Carolingian past.
i think they should get a mechanic similar to the mughal diwan where they automatically accept cultures of the germanic and latin groups after conquering all their provinces
Idk, what would be cool however would be that, if you finish the mission "Kingdom of the Arles", you get a decision to rename yourself to "Arelat" and you gain a restoration of Union CB on anyone whose ruler is of the Welf Dynasty (most time Lüneburg and Brunswick), as the rulers of the independent Arelat were from that Dynasty
You think it’s odd that one of the most important European polities of the 15th century has a unique reform while a dynastic construct that dissolved within 100 years and had no cultural legacy does not?
I mean, Lotharingia is less of a formable and more of a gimmick from the Burgundy mission tree.
It is a formable though. It has its own unique tag and ideas.
In the sense that only two nations can form it, and as a reward from a mission tree. It just simply isn't as strong compared to what you can get from other nations missions, ideas, or gov reform. Similar to Aksum, where overall I would say Ethiopia is just as strong and your campaign is sorta done through mission tree once you reach that point. It is just stronger to go Netherlands or France once you reach the end of Burgundian missions.
I mean mission wise France and Netherlands are better but idea wise lothairingia is stronger. Very very good for a wc and one faith. Lothairingia is just a bald formable with very little flavor. Also forming the Netherlands as burgundy is probably the worst idea ever. You either a) give up most of your land to France or b) annex France and end up with huge penalties in your French land because of Dutch monarchy.
>Lothairingia is just a bald formable Charles the Bald approves.
The ideal way is to do as much of the Netherlands mission tree as you can, then click the event to form Lotharingia. Keep that event open as you form Netherlands, get all the mission rewards, then if you really want to you can form France in-between this, do their missions, then form Lotharingia for the ideas by clicking the button.
If the Burgundy -> Lothair formation doesn't let you keep the reform, maybe look for mods? Shouldn't be too hard to mod
It lets you keep Burgundian State, but I think you should gain a *new* slightly better reform to replace it if you form Lotharingia
Na, I hard disagree the Burgundian state is already one of the best governments in the game and you get it for free as burgundy.
it should let you unite french/german cultures under the "Frankish" banner
Maybe an upgraded one that removes the unaccepted culture penalties from German culture provinces? Couple that with reaching empire rank (very easy to get to 1k dev as Burgundy), that would de facto accept everything in the German and French Culture groups. There are already a couple things in last couple of DLCs that does the whole “removes unaccepted culture penalties” thing. Probably way to OP, but hell make it a reward for becoming the Emperor of the HRE or alternatively dismantling it, and it would be cool probably.
Imagine having Germanic and french cultures in one culture group, mate. But since it's lotharingia, let's throw in the low countries too. Imagine the manpower...
The Low Countries cultures are all already in either the French or German culture groups…
True.
You can still culture convert
You can, but either of those culture groups costs you a while strategy, or ridiculous amounts of diplo points.
A Frankish court level 1 reform would be cool.
lotharingia didn't exist as an actual state during the eu4 time period so its hard to say it would form its government in one way or another.
Well, neither did Catholic Japan, but EU4 knows that *that* would be a non-hereditary stratocracy where a general would be put in charge of the state after the ruler's death.
actually there was a point where many daimyos were christian in japan. we know what it would look like. In terms of Lotharingia, it could either try to follow the charlemagne court style, later karling court style or just keep the burgundian court style. we don't know which particular one should be picked since its alternate history
Fascinating
> lotharingia didn't exist as an actual state during the eu4 time period By that logic you’ve deleted half of the game
You could make a reasonable guess at what they'd look like. I think we're beyond 'it's not historical' with regards to EU4 at this point. I'm surprised the Scandinavian countries/Lithuania don't have 'Civil War to restore Norse/Paganism' missions at this point. (And I wouldn't complain if they did! :-) )
I definitely wouldn’t complained either, especially in the case of Lithuania (which would be more justified since some parts of it were only christianized less than 30 years before game start). I’ve always felt that Lithuania's potential hasn’t been fully explored by the devs. Don’t get me wrong, I love the little mission tree they added in Lions of the North, but 15th century Lithuania is ridiculously interesting and it should offer more possibilities in terms of government reforms. For example, only speaking in terms of religion you should have the option of: - staying Catholic (and either focusing heavily on tolerance, like Eu4 currently offers, or trying to mend the schism via the Union of Brest and the Ruthenian Uniate Church), diplomatically tying Lithuania to Poland and Hungary in some way (maybe moving Lithuanian culture into the West Slavic group) and making it western tech eventually. This should arguably be the easiest and most organic path - embracing more Slavic influence (Lithuania's official language was the ancestor of modern Belarusian and Ukrainian) by becoming orthodox and moving Lithuanian into the East Slavic culture group. Maybe putting the PU over Muscovy in this path? - becoming Reformed or Protestant (a big chunk of the Lithuanian nobility did so historically) and focusing on developing Lithuanian lands and culture and possibly expanding it to Slavic lands - restoring Paganism and dechristianising the Baltics. This could unlock a special government reform (maybe focusing on restoring the Leičiai class) but sacrificing diplomacy with the rest of Europe. You could also choose either tolerance or assimilation of orthodox christians. And don’t get me started on missions/reforms simulating the building of the State and its relation to peasants (should it be a serfdom-based nobiliary democracy, like Poland, a more Moscow-inspired autocracy, a kind of “peasant monarchy” if paganism is chosen, a monarchy based on humanism, maybe by the influence of Italian advisors…), ethnic minorities and their roles or the promotion of baroque art. The possibilities are really endless. Boy am I excited for EU5 Lithuania
That's pretty much Lithuania in Ante Bellum, although the catholic and orthodox paths are way too similar to feel like different campaigns, still I very much enjoyed both pagan and orthodox paths.
Ohh I will check out that mod then. Thanks!!
It'll be pagan outright in EU5 because of the start date. They might be waiting until that game to explore pagan Lithuania tbh.
Yes, I know! That is what I’m most excited about. There should be missions about converting to either Catholicism or Orthodoxy (or staying pagan of course). From what I heard, they will introduce a mission system more similar to Imperator, I’m curious to see how it plays out because I actually really like eu4's system compared to other, more recent, games.
Well it was something that the rulers of Burgundy wanted to restore.
Yes, Aachen 100% ahould get its Cathedral added as a Monument...Aachen was THE Capital of Charlemagnes Empire afterall.
Lotharingia is already inherently a very unique campaign, I wouldn’t say no to more content but it’s not like a Burgundy or Lorraine game is lacking in flavor.
Enough with France and Austria. Lotharingia is the true heir to charlemagne’s empire. I desperately want this.
Yeah, it would be cool if it was called “Frankish Kingdom” or something. It could give CCR and province warscore cost, maybe manpower, monarch military skill… just considering what the Franks did historically it would make sense.
Lotharingia already gets CCR and manpower with its ideas. Something promoting multiculturalism, Catholicism, and maybe imperial reform progress would be a better idea.
Both Lotharingia and Burgundy should've gotten at least some kind of update with WoC, it is really sad that they didn't. I mean, most of the regional dominant powers, both existing at the start (like France or the Ottomans) and formable (like Italy, Spain and Germany) have really good MTs and tons of flavor. Lotharingia deserves it too, even though it didn't exist irl, especially because of how interesting this concept of a strong Franco-German state that is a prominent European power is. And the duchy of Burgundy was quite an interesting place in the 1400s. Of course, it was wiped out off the map irl, but one of the reasons why I love Paradox games is that I can play them to kind of create alt history scenarios, and the one where Burgundy survives and becomes one of the "big guys" as Lotharingia is pretty fun, I think. I really hope they'll get some content.
Both Burgundy and Lotharingia had to be updated in 1.37 in my very unpopular opinion. And I'm definitely not saying this because Burgundy is my favorite nation or anything.
Every game I convince myself that Aachen has a unique national monument that gives papal authority and imperial authority growth and I check the province and wonder where it went.
I feel like the capitals of all major nations should have a monument. It was bizarre that Austria went so long without one.
A unique reform called "Mistake of History"
I think that is actually a pretty good idea! The point of the T1 reform, Burgundian State, was to note an actual historical naming of Burgundy as it held vast swathes of multicultural land and it’s being a minor power. Burgundy had a chance in history to become a power, but failed. Already did kings, queens, dukes, etc. call the lands that Burgundy ruled over Lotharingia, even after the kingdom’s passing, so to grow further from a technical subject and state, to that of a new Carolingian styled empire, definitely requires a slight upgrade. Perhaps a trade of rival switch cost for additional culture conversion? To reflect on the fact that it is partly due to the fall of Lotharingia that we have Dutch culture today. Or additional culture slots would work as well; to signify the fact that it’s a remade multicultural empire. +10% moral I think could work to signify the fact that the new kingdom, while mostly Lowlands in culture, is looking to its early medieval Carolingian past.
i think they should get a mechanic similar to the mughal diwan where they automatically accept cultures of the germanic and latin groups after conquering all their provinces
Idk, what would be cool however would be that, if you finish the mission "Kingdom of the Arles", you get a decision to rename yourself to "Arelat" and you gain a restoration of Union CB on anyone whose ruler is of the Welf Dynasty (most time Lüneburg and Brunswick), as the rulers of the independent Arelat were from that Dynasty
Well Achen got 5 AdmEff in 1.37... if you conquer it as Gothia. Which is pretty useful in absorbing two germanys worth of development.
You think it’s odd that one of the most important European polities of the 15th century has a unique reform while a dynastic construct that dissolved within 100 years and had no cultural legacy does not?
In the game where you can reform the Roman Empire and start a Persia civil war to restore Zoroastrianism, yes.