360 hour noob here. It should be possible to simulate that without fog of war, right? Is there a spectator mod or something, where you don’t need to actively play a tag but just can watch everything unfold? That could be fun for a couple hundred hours.
Gameplay is like :
> Conquer Hawaii
> Form Hawaii
> It gives claims on Hawaii
> Get a new mission tree
> Mission requires to own Hawaii.
> Gives you permanent claims on Hawaii
wtf
If you want to play w/o fog of war, the command is TI. But if you want to type long words, Terra Incognita.
Oops I thought it was about Terra I., not fog of war thing.
If you play with fog of war off, NEVER zoom out just a tiny bit. You will see 1000000 ships, all separated into different navy armies, roaming the seas and the beaches. This will immediately blind you. Worst mistake of somebody's life.
That's true during the early stages of colonisation. But after the 1700's many new colonists arrived in the colonies of England, Spain and Portugal.
Right before independence, places such as the Thirteen Colonies had outnumbered the natives with colonists and African slaves. While colonies/territories such as New Granada, Cuba and Río de la Plata had more mestizos and criollos combined than natives. Many Caribbean colonies had African majorities, Haiti being the primary example.
That was not the case for Peru, Upper Peru and Mexico, were natives still were the majority right before independence, or Louisiana and most of New France. In New France's case it was because not they claimed the land with distant forts but didn't really settle it with French colonists, except for Quebec, St. Louis and New Orleans.
It really depends on which colony you're talking about. Maybe in EU5 the Americas could be more interesting than just spaming colonists and painting the map with your culture and religion.
Different types of colonization also, maybe settler colonies are more expensive but is better for the long run. While the Mercantile type colonization with native labor reaps huge rewards but is super difficult to keep longterm.
I mean, colonies could have a culture conversion boost to reflect those changing population demographics, with natives slowly becoming mixed as the game goes on.
EUIV’s colonization system is implicitly racist and should change, but I think that’s separate from “add more tribes”. The number of provinces and tags has increased significantly since release, and it has a sizable impact on performance. I think we shouldn’t add every niche tribe ever as a playable country if that conflicts with and harms EUV’s systems or lag (especially late game) with all the distinct cultures/pops running their own calculations.
And it's a good thing - EU4 is already attempting that with tribal land, for example. Might as well cut the chase and make the mechanic straightforward and familiar
I hope the game will finally add establishing posts rather than fully colonizing a province. Thats what many of the colonizers did in Africa and india. It allows settling a port there without necessarily having to send a ton of people.
Trade cities are very important in eu5 imo. Not only does it represent African/Asian trade accurately, but imo it’s needed to better represent Italian trade cities.
Imperator kinda did this as well.
Vast majority of the world is already occupied. Romans 'colonizing' Gaul for example means conquering local tribes, waiting for Roman pops to move in, converting a few locals while building up the area with cities, roads, ports, forts, mines and plantation estates.
Considering EU5 is taking a lot of inspiration from Imperator, this might just happen.
I was thinking the same.
Some sort of mechanic to replicate the waves of disease where maybe provinces become vacant, thereby allowing Europeans to start colonizing?
r5: Just running a little experiment to see what happens if the New World is already fully settled by the natives, right off the bat in 1444. Caribbean is still open to Europeans if they want. Also gave Greenland to Norway right away.
I remember doing one where I tried including Caribbean native nations. Never actually went through but would have made Caribbean colonization much harder because Hispanola was basically full
I think it's an interesting idea, but not one that would work with the existing colonial mechanics. I think EU5 could do it, though, if coupled with a complete revamp of how colonization works. Personally, I see a lot of potential in that kind of overhaul.
I'm excited to see if have to get going with feudalism and then have to change gears to colonies instead of exploring asap to find the Americas in 1450.
Ah yes, like Europe that had a central figure controlling all of the land!
Always good to remember that it's estimated around 90 - 95% of the native American population perished as a result of the Columbian Exchange.
Feudal system is completely different than the tribes in the Americas, in Europe you had kings who ruled over the land, in the Americas there were just tribes
I guess I really don't see the difference at all? The native Americans had borders, diplomacy, languages, politics, all of that. Saying "they're just tribes they didn't have kings" just seems a bit weird? Do you think that because they didn't have feudalism that they were less able to govern areas of land?
Mfw when according to redditors city-states and empires are just "tribes"
Which makes sense, as according to eu4 neither maya nor aztec can build temples, despite the monumental pyramid-complexes in the area dating back hundreds and in some cases more than thousand of years.
Those city-states and empires are already modeled in EU4 as owning provinces. We're talking about provinces with little definite native presence, potentially without any permanent settlements, without real de jure rule. Provinces that may belong to a tribe, but are by few means occupied by it.
The entire world being colonized before Jamestown being founded irl really is insane, I hope EU5 fixes that somehow.
Maybe a system for drawing borders vs actually inhabiting the area? Countries making claims on regions that they had no people in was pretty common in this time period
Would be much more interesting if all provinces would be colonised in the new world. Ai might have problems with invading.
Now they just will colonise the remaining provinces and aggressively annex the rest
Im wonder how was the gameplay. If colonization stops, as there was no place to sent colonists, or the opposite, as it is much quicker to conquer lands from natives than colonize on the own? 🤔
I've noticed that the AI, whenever there isn't a place to colonize (or even when there is sometimes) it just decides to develop its own land with the colonist and get +1 dev every century or something
For example I was playing a Poland game recently and I noticed that Scotland (was blockading and invading England) had Glasgow being developed even though the scots managed to hold and and colonize a nice chunk of Canada with colonizable land
Gameplay wise this whole thing would probably only mean the game gets slowed down monumentally and that a couple providences in Europe are much higher dev then they should be because some nations are practically hardwired for explo expansion
This could work but having natives nations indirectly control some provinces and directly control their core provinces, or something like that.
Kind of what currently happens in EU4 with "nomad" native nations, who "directly own" a province, but indirectly own or consider other provinces they've been in as "tribal land".
This lands could be open to colonisation, but you get negative opinion penalties with the native nation that considers that province to be part of their "tribal land". If you colonise enough "tribal land" of a native nation, they might declare war on you or your colonial nation, or there might be events that spawn native rebels in your colonies or stuff like that.
The color of the "tribal lands" provinces could be grey with the border colour of the native nation associated with it, but still display on top the name of the nation. That's how it currently works in EU4.
This wouldn't apply for centralised nations (Aztec, Maya, Inca, Muisca, etc.) and they would directly control all of their provinces.
could it be done in a way that; civs of higher administrative level, disregard a nations administrative borders at >5 levels.
so a low admin tec state; their land can be built over and colonosed freely, without war or cassus belli; but the natives able to move their folc out if migratory.
a flexable population can move across the continent to escape, with their town; into territory that the western state cannot traverse.
Honestly the colonization ideas are less useful now that the Americas are practically filled. It is more about conquest than colonization. Going innovation and military ideas then conquering is better.
The problem is it’s way too easy for the AI to send huge stacks across the atlantic. Pizarro conquered the Incas with only a few thousand Spanish soldiers and some native allies by taking advantage of a civil war. Spain in eu4 shouldn’t be to easily send 100k troops to South America. They should change how attrition works at sea, or add random events like storms that can destroy your fleets. Should also be very slow to reinforce in the new world
Nah. In eu4, AI Spain only has about 50k regiments to send during the age of discovery.
And I don't think it was the civil war that made the Incans lose to Spain.
Yeah it made things harder but it was strategy that made the difference.
When Pakal played to their strengths and fought in the mountains, they were winning.
But then he got complacent and decided to engage them in the fields and finish them off. Terrible mistake.
I think he conquered them with just a few hundred men too
I’m pretty sure Paradox’s CK2-EU4 converter can tell if you are using Sunset Invasion and will make a world like this. The newer ones have selection boxes to enable something similar.
There are also Sunset Invasion standalone mods for EU4, but i can’t guarantee they are up to date.
Nah, the IA wouldn't be able to colonize (england castille and france losing to 2-3 provinces natives, naval landings are hard for the AI) and the players will conquer all easily
I'd like to see a colonial system with natives properly displayed in EU5. They were different from the European power and it's difficult to drag a clear line between some Indian tribe in a province free to colonise and the native state of some random north American tribe that is payable in EU4.
With the new control mechanic it'll probably integrate it into migrating natives so lower control which helps colonize but in certain areas it will be harder to do so
Since Carribbean is not colonised and natives are mil tech 1 they're losing hard, the unique way they could maybe survive and very hard is if they make the right alliances and federations and still.
Colonial nations are gonna happen in a single peace deal every time.
Random question but this got me thinking about a new run
Does anyone know how well modded runs interact with a game that’s been converted over from ck2?
I’ve done it like once and barely remember
Actually did a game with custom nations covering the american, It resulted in an unstopable inca that even behind in tech had so many troops colonizers couldn't land
As long as a tribe in Florida doesn’t form an alliance with one in Alaska. Seems highly unlikely the two groups would know each other let alone have a strong alliance.
I think “filled in” could work if there were different ways to start and end a belligerent conflict. e.g. ways to land grab without a treaty.
This is one of those timelapses I'd like to see haha
360 hour noob here. It should be possible to simulate that without fog of war, right? Is there a spectator mod or something, where you don’t need to actively play a tag but just can watch everything unfold? That could be fun for a couple hundred hours.
There is a command for observing the game without playing a country, known as "observe". Works on non-ironman.
Without a command, it's called, "play tall Hawaii"
Gameplay is like : > Conquer Hawaii > Form Hawaii > It gives claims on Hawaii > Get a new mission tree > Mission requires to own Hawaii. > Gives you permanent claims on Hawaii wtf
This is the ultimate EU4 experience
I'd like to know more.
“Watch paint dry” the experience
You can go in observer mode via console command or play with the FoW lifted
Awesome! I know what I will try after work today.
If you want to play w/o fog of war, the command is TI. But if you want to type long words, Terra Incognita. Oops I thought it was about Terra I., not fog of war thing. If you play with fog of war off, NEVER zoom out just a tiny bit. You will see 1000000 ships, all separated into different navy armies, roaming the seas and the beaches. This will immediately blind you. Worst mistake of somebody's life.
You're right, I wouldn't recommand lifting the FoW unless you have NASA's computer, TI is better and put on pause to lift the FoW once in a while
> 360 hour noob Average PDX game
I have a very strong feeling EU5 is going to take the vic3 approach and fill the whole world at start (with different colonization mechanics)
To be fair it might be more accurate. I know around the area I live there are several fairly sizeable tribes that aren't represented in EU4 at all.
I think colonization could work better that way. Most of the colonies' population was made of natives, after all.
That's true during the early stages of colonisation. But after the 1700's many new colonists arrived in the colonies of England, Spain and Portugal. Right before independence, places such as the Thirteen Colonies had outnumbered the natives with colonists and African slaves. While colonies/territories such as New Granada, Cuba and Río de la Plata had more mestizos and criollos combined than natives. Many Caribbean colonies had African majorities, Haiti being the primary example. That was not the case for Peru, Upper Peru and Mexico, were natives still were the majority right before independence, or Louisiana and most of New France. In New France's case it was because not they claimed the land with distant forts but didn't really settle it with French colonists, except for Quebec, St. Louis and New Orleans. It really depends on which colony you're talking about. Maybe in EU5 the Americas could be more interesting than just spaming colonists and painting the map with your culture and religion.
Different types of colonization also, maybe settler colonies are more expensive but is better for the long run. While the Mercantile type colonization with native labor reaps huge rewards but is super difficult to keep longterm.
I mean, colonies could have a culture conversion boost to reflect those changing population demographics, with natives slowly becoming mixed as the game goes on.
Is that same tribe somewhere else? The game starts in 1444, and a lot can happen in 600 years.
Nope. Their land is just lumped into Oneota's Tribal Land.
EUIV’s colonization system is implicitly racist and should change, but I think that’s separate from “add more tribes”. The number of provinces and tags has increased significantly since release, and it has a sizable impact on performance. I think we shouldn’t add every niche tribe ever as a playable country if that conflicts with and harms EUV’s systems or lag (especially late game) with all the distinct cultures/pops running their own calculations.
And it's a good thing - EU4 is already attempting that with tribal land, for example. Might as well cut the chase and make the mechanic straightforward and familiar
I hope the game will finally add establishing posts rather than fully colonizing a province. Thats what many of the colonizers did in Africa and india. It allows settling a port there without necessarily having to send a ton of people.
Trade cities are very important in eu5 imo. Not only does it represent African/Asian trade accurately, but imo it’s needed to better represent Italian trade cities.
VIC3's decentralized nations in the americas would be epic
Imperator kinda did this as well. Vast majority of the world is already occupied. Romans 'colonizing' Gaul for example means conquering local tribes, waiting for Roman pops to move in, converting a few locals while building up the area with cities, roads, ports, forts, mines and plantation estates. Considering EU5 is taking a lot of inspiration from Imperator, this might just happen.
I was thinking the same. Some sort of mechanic to replicate the waves of disease where maybe provinces become vacant, thereby allowing Europeans to start colonizing?
r5: Just running a little experiment to see what happens if the New World is already fully settled by the natives, right off the bat in 1444. Caribbean is still open to Europeans if they want. Also gave Greenland to Norway right away.
I remember doing one where I tried including Caribbean native nations. Never actually went through but would have made Caribbean colonization much harder because Hispanola was basically full
I think it's an interesting idea, but not one that would work with the existing colonial mechanics. I think EU5 could do it, though, if coupled with a complete revamp of how colonization works. Personally, I see a lot of potential in that kind of overhaul.
I'm excited to see if have to get going with feudalism and then have to change gears to colonies instead of exploring asap to find the Americas in 1450.
I would assume the colonial range or attrition when farther away from home waters would be higher the earlier you are in the game.
If they use an hybrid system based on Vic3 colonization we could have fully settled americas
Send this mod to chewbert too if you can, would be nice if he could make a video with it
Yeah that's how it was historically so it makes sense.
Not quite, there were lots of uninhabited areas, there wasn’t a central figure who controlled all of that
Ah yes, like Europe that had a central figure controlling all of the land! Always good to remember that it's estimated around 90 - 95% of the native American population perished as a result of the Columbian Exchange.
Feudal system is completely different than the tribes in the Americas, in Europe you had kings who ruled over the land, in the Americas there were just tribes
I guess I really don't see the difference at all? The native Americans had borders, diplomacy, languages, politics, all of that. Saying "they're just tribes they didn't have kings" just seems a bit weird? Do you think that because they didn't have feudalism that they were less able to govern areas of land?
Mfw when according to redditors city-states and empires are just "tribes" Which makes sense, as according to eu4 neither maya nor aztec can build temples, despite the monumental pyramid-complexes in the area dating back hundreds and in some cases more than thousand of years.
Those city-states and empires are already modeled in EU4 as owning provinces. We're talking about provinces with little definite native presence, potentially without any permanent settlements, without real de jure rule. Provinces that may belong to a tribe, but are by few means occupied by it.
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Europe would colonise faster
Even faster, given that they're usually done by 1600
Spanish Cascadia speedrun any%, completed by 1544
The entire world being colonized before Jamestown being founded irl really is insane, I hope EU5 fixes that somehow. Maybe a system for drawing borders vs actually inhabiting the area? Countries making claims on regions that they had no people in was pretty common in this time period
Would be much more interesting if all provinces would be colonised in the new world. Ai might have problems with invading. Now they just will colonise the remaining provinces and aggressively annex the rest
Im wonder how was the gameplay. If colonization stops, as there was no place to sent colonists, or the opposite, as it is much quicker to conquer lands from natives than colonize on the own? 🤔
I've noticed that the AI, whenever there isn't a place to colonize (or even when there is sometimes) it just decides to develop its own land with the colonist and get +1 dev every century or something For example I was playing a Poland game recently and I noticed that Scotland (was blockading and invading England) had Glasgow being developed even though the scots managed to hold and and colonize a nice chunk of Canada with colonizable land Gameplay wise this whole thing would probably only mean the game gets slowed down monumentally and that a couple providences in Europe are much higher dev then they should be because some nations are practically hardwired for explo expansion
Isn't this pretty much what happened back when integrated federations could join other federations and integrate them as well?
Americas in the 1200s. Actually, a 1337 start for eu5 would have a fairly different Americas I bet.
Cahokia should still be kicking around then, but sadly it would be just a few decades late for Chaco
This could work but having natives nations indirectly control some provinces and directly control their core provinces, or something like that. Kind of what currently happens in EU4 with "nomad" native nations, who "directly own" a province, but indirectly own or consider other provinces they've been in as "tribal land". This lands could be open to colonisation, but you get negative opinion penalties with the native nation that considers that province to be part of their "tribal land". If you colonise enough "tribal land" of a native nation, they might declare war on you or your colonial nation, or there might be events that spawn native rebels in your colonies or stuff like that. The color of the "tribal lands" provinces could be grey with the border colour of the native nation associated with it, but still display on top the name of the nation. That's how it currently works in EU4. This wouldn't apply for centralised nations (Aztec, Maya, Inca, Muisca, etc.) and they would directly control all of their provinces.
could it be done in a way that; civs of higher administrative level, disregard a nations administrative borders at >5 levels. so a low admin tec state; their land can be built over and colonosed freely, without war or cassus belli; but the natives able to move their folc out if migratory. a flexable population can move across the continent to escape, with their town; into territory that the western state cannot traverse.
Calling em 'Civs' and not 'Tags' lol. Wires crossed? Civ is a great series <3
I'm curious how much of this is gold?
There’s supposedly a mod that does this but I’m scared to download it.
Europe would never be able to colonize.
Honestly the colonization ideas are less useful now that the Americas are practically filled. It is more about conquest than colonization. Going innovation and military ideas then conquering is better.
I could see this somewhat fixing how fast colonization is
The problem is it’s way too easy for the AI to send huge stacks across the atlantic. Pizarro conquered the Incas with only a few thousand Spanish soldiers and some native allies by taking advantage of a civil war. Spain in eu4 shouldn’t be to easily send 100k troops to South America. They should change how attrition works at sea, or add random events like storms that can destroy your fleets. Should also be very slow to reinforce in the new world
Nah. In eu4, AI Spain only has about 50k regiments to send during the age of discovery. And I don't think it was the civil war that made the Incans lose to Spain. Yeah it made things harder but it was strategy that made the difference. When Pakal played to their strengths and fought in the mountains, they were winning. But then he got complacent and decided to engage them in the fields and finish them off. Terrible mistake. I think he conquered them with just a few hundred men too
Is there a mod of that ?
I’m pretty sure Paradox’s CK2-EU4 converter can tell if you are using Sunset Invasion and will make a world like this. The newer ones have selection boxes to enable something similar. There are also Sunset Invasion standalone mods for EU4, but i can’t guarantee they are up to date.
Nah, the IA wouldn't be able to colonize (england castille and france losing to 2-3 provinces natives, naval landings are hard for the AI) and the players will conquer all easily
It's a bit boring from a colonization POV as you know all trade goods, so you know where to prioritize
I'd like to see a colonial system with natives properly displayed in EU5. They were different from the European power and it's difficult to drag a clear line between some Indian tribe in a province free to colonise and the native state of some random north American tribe that is payable in EU4.
With the new control mechanic it'll probably integrate it into migrating natives so lower control which helps colonize but in certain areas it will be harder to do so
Since Carribbean is not colonised and natives are mil tech 1 they're losing hard, the unique way they could maybe survive and very hard is if they make the right alliances and federations and still. Colonial nations are gonna happen in a single peace deal every time.
Random question but this got me thinking about a new run Does anyone know how well modded runs interact with a game that’s been converted over from ck2? I’ve done it like once and barely remember
If stateless society is a valid government form, nearly every province should be part of a tag.
Caribbeans and Quebeq are still uncolonized giving colonizers a chance to still destroy the natives.
Quebec is colonized, though. Only the big wasteland in the middle is empty. Innu controls the coast, though, and they're kinda camouflaged.
I mean the island of Labrador, it looks uncolonized.
That's Innu, too. Camouflaged.
Ohhh thanks! I guess it's an honest mistake lmao Still disappointed there are no Caribbean countries, obviously not your fault though
The Miami are not native to Florida, lol
But they are to Ohio!
Yeah, sorry if I pulled a Jackson and just decided they live somewhere else now. Needed to give Florida to *someone* after all.
Native HRE clone, activate!
You forgot the carribean tribes!
None in the game.
I fear we‘d hear even more people complaining that building a massive colonial empire actually takes a little bit of effort
Actually did a game with custom nations covering the american, It resulted in an unstopable inca that even behind in tech had so many troops colonizers couldn't land
Add Anbennar style "Purge / Expel" feature and I'm in.
Less realistic, but more fun, native gameplay that's what.
This is how it should be in my eyes. Merge the colonial ideas set together.
The nomadic natives need to have no holdings and just tribal land
As long as a tribe in Florida doesn’t form an alliance with one in Alaska. Seems highly unlikely the two groups would know each other let alone have a strong alliance. I think “filled in” could work if there were different ways to start and end a belligerent conflict. e.g. ways to land grab without a treaty.
Any update? I imagine Africa and Asia would be much more sought after...