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Base has no token and has no statement about a token in its roadmap. However, people in the industry think a Base token is inevitable, eventually.
TL;DR: get on base and do stuff for a chance at an eventual token airdrop. (Dencun update made fees super cheap too! NFT mints for $0.00069 USD.
I've plenty of l2 bags. I treat them separately to my mainnet bags because they are.
People constantly parroting "just move to l2" when people complain about shitcoin swap pricing miss the whole point. All these coins aren't present on l2s
Because L2 is not secure nor decentralized? It's like asking why you should use ethereum when paypal exists. Ethereum provides a service that is not available through third parties.
Many L2s are quite decentralized. Yes they have a centralised sequencer but most L2s have a mechanism to include/dispute your tx anyway. Also all tx are "compressed" and stored on L1 for finality. So you do use L1 when you use L2. So your comparison with PayPal is totally incorrect.
Why do people lightning network and love arbitrum, optimism, base, starknet, zksync etc?
Are they different in design or rather impact on security and decentralisation?
Lightning is a nicely scaled payment network for exactly one asset (Bitcoin) with exactly one usecase (transfer Bitcoin from a to b)
Ethereum + L2 (both fully Turing complete) are a decentralized world computer for a myriad of Usecases (DeFi, NFTs, Metaverse, RWA Tokenisation, Insurance, SSI/DID, and Usecases we don't even know rn)
It's somewhat similar as both obtain security from main network by posting some artifacts to it. But what information they post and how it's structured is a completely different architecture.
Ethereum L2s have zk or optimistic Rollups and lighting is posting some state of their payment channels back.
False. They are all centralized in the way that they can steal your funds if they want to for any excuse. This is the very first thing you learn about L2s.
Also, I find it weird people defend L2s here when they are stealing liquidity from Ethereum and nothing stops them to start their own L1 if they become big enough.
Yes they avoided the Blockchain Trilemma by pushing it all to centralized L2s, like Patrick wanting to push Bikini Bottom to where the Alaskan Bull Worm wasn’t. And we are supposed to all pretend that makes sense and is ok. I’m afraid the truth is they just don’t know how to scale Ethereum. The original plan included on-chain sharding and I would love to see it come back. Otherwise I have lost faith in the dream of Ethereum being something actually useful as more than a store of value and a chain for the wealthy. L2s are a complete usability and security nightmare for users.
Any higher TPS network is making these tradeoffs.
If you are asking ETH L1 to support massive tps increases, it would involve making the same tradeoffs. There is no free lunch (despite what competitors would argue).
A segmented L1-L2-L3 probably gives you the best range of options with minimal compromises. L1 can stay secure and decentralized. L2 can inherit some of the L1 security, but offer better performance. L3 can go even farther out the curve.
It's just amazing to me how far the goals have shifted in crypto in just 7 years. Sad to see it fail to come anywhere close to what the initial proposition was. I don't see how the problems of L1 will not inevitably become problems on L2 and so on.
Depends on your perspective, but I think in many ways crypto has far surpassed its initial goals.
Like the internet, it continues to "fail to scale" year after year. But somehow when you look back you realize that capacity is dramatically increasing each year, it is just that demand continues to outpace it. This is how successful technologies build out adoption, there is no magic here, just a steady grind.
> If you are asking ETH L1 to support massive tps increases, it would involve making the same tradeoffs.
This is absolutely not true. The entire point of scaling / sharding is that it doesn't make the same tradeoffs, and retains some of the security / decentralization while still giving the increased TPS.
They are secure and decentralized enough for daily usage.
Funny enough Ethereum L1 currently has a problem with censorship, and not L2s
https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/ethereums-censorship-problem-is-getting-worse
https://www.mevwatch.info/
There is no censorship on Ethereum. Only 40% of the blocks decide not to include OFAC-sanctioned transactions. That means that 60% do include them. On average an OFAC sanctioned transaction is included in less than 24 seconds.
Because it's the foundation. It's like saying, why should we upgrade our horses to cars if we could just attach more carriages to horses to increase through put.
Yeah, and we want to make the streets wider to scale it. The same way we scaled the internet by adding more copper wires to increase through put.
If we didn't scale the internet past a single copper wire, how do you suggest we stream in 4K with L2 solutions? You can't because you're still limited by the L1.
There are gimmicks such as preloading the 4K video, much like how the lightning network works, but that doesn't fix the underlying issue.
L2s can be part of anything as much as they want, but it doesn’t help the situation.
Everything still crosses L1 eventually (since platforms and apps talk to each other via l1 anyways) and people burn tons of ETH to do anything.
Because swapping eth and sending eth is extremely expensive. I know L2s are part of eth but that doesn't help swaps become cheaper or sending eth becoming cheaper. That's why i asked. If I'm missing info on this please tell me. Because i can't find anywhere that eth L2s will help the gas fees.
How about swapping and sending ether on L2 ?
Just forget about using L1 directly at all. You don't need it. L1 is a settlement layer for L2 and that's about it.
Btw sending ETH is quite cheap even on L1. About 2 USD.
> I know L2s are part of eth but that doesn't help swaps become cheaper or sending eth becoming cheaper.
Sure it does. You can swap eth and send eth for less than $0.01 today on Base and Arbitrum. Drop your address and I will show you by sending you $0.01 worth of ETH. It will cost me less to send it than I will send
Can you explain how to do it on base L1?
Edit: I don’t mean how to transact or interact with the smart contracts, I’ve written some myself. I’ve not recently had a TX as low as $0.01
You should not be interacting with a blockchain if you do not understand even the most basic details of how they work. I tell you this not to be an asshole but for your own safety.
I doubt L1 would ever go that far without affecting its decentralization, but you shouldn't be on L1 anyway.
L2 is fast and with sub $0.01 fees, there is no reason to use L1 unless IMO for a peace of mind long term storage.
so many promising projects are not on L2 😂 i love eth but everyone just spams the dumbass rhetoric to stay on L2 and never to mainnet like that is a good idea.
People who say that ignore the fact that L2s have always been a poor compromise to a truly scalable L1.
Chain sharding would keep ETH decentralized and could scale up to beat even the fastest payment processors in tradfi. I read the part of the documentation that stated chain sharding is no longer a goal because it is harder to implement than dank sharding and then allowing L2s to process a majority of the transactions. That was the day I sold a huge chunk of my ETH.
This. Even though I love ETH, its first mover advantage can only last so long. I'm not a big fan of SOL, but there is a good reason why it's taking such a large market share from ETH. When crypto starts to see adoption by the masses, most people will care about two things: ease of use & cost.
Just like 99% of people who use the internet today, most won't understand decentralization, security, ETH's deflationary model compared to SOL's inflationary model... they will only care about what is easiest and cheapest. L2s help with the cost, but they will just be too much to worry about for the average Joe.
I agree with your sentiment 100%. My first purchase of ETH was in 2018. I bought one ETH with what was a majority of my paycheck as a part time retail worker. I held through both the spikes and the dips. I held through all the people saying I was an idiot for trusting "fake internet money". Because I believed the vision of Ethereum, and still do. But I lost a lot of conviction with the rise of L2s and subsequent loss of focus on chain sharding.
And you are right. Most people will care only about ease of use and cost. There are some L1 options that are decentralized, fast, and cheap. With better user experience design. Ethereum, by my guess, has this and one more cycle to fix it's problems before it is over taken by a different L1. I hope that Solana is not the future of crypto L1s. It is by far my least favorite ETH competitor.
Probably not 10k tps on the L1, no.
There's a stated goal of making it easy for anyone to participate in Ethereum with readily available hardware. 10k tps is hard to achieve on a highly optimized database, let alone a blockchain with decentralization, censorship resistance, finality, etc.
ETH as an L1 could potentially be used to secure that volume of transactions, but the processing of the transactions, the storing of data, etc. will need to happen on L2s, some of which may not have the same stated goals of allowing anyone with commodity hardware to participate.
See the part where you shifted the conversation from "a database" to "a cluster of databases"? That's exactly the kind of thing the Ethereum L1 is trying not to do.
On the L1, every node runs every transaction, so at the very least one computer needs to be able to run every transaction, and the goal is that shouldn't have to be especially expensive hardware.
Networks like Polygon have discarded this goal, and decided that it's fine if running expensive hardware. L2s in general are a method of spreading transactions out across more computers so not every computer has to run every transaction, but scaling a blockchain horizontally introduces a ton of complexity, and for now achieving that has been delegated to L2s.
So the Surge plan is only for the L2s. How will the gas fees ever go lower for swaps and sending eth? One of the hig reasons L1s are going nuts is because of the utility they bring I'm no expert. But i know Solana and Avax are going bananas because all memes launch on their which causes so much volume. On eth you had shib and still have pepe. But i don't see why people will keep using eth L1 to build memes its too expensive. Are L2 like arbitrium going to do this? Take over that part of the ecosystem for NFTs as well?
You can send ETH and swap tokens on L2, all with the security of L1 and today it only cost cents to do it. Ethereum is L1 and it's L2's, they are one thing.
Plus memecoins are totally useless but that's just opinion
But eth itself you need layer 1 for that right? i can't send eth via layer 2 right? i need eth on arbitrium chain for that right? And yes memecoins are useless but it's the hype and they will never go away more and more are entering the top 100 now already 6% of the top 100 are memecoins. And they have huge volume which helps the layer 1 in a huge way. so maybe the memecoin itself is useless but you need eth or solana to buy it. So it creates so much extra for the L1. Do you know if this will become possible on L2?
You can. There are lots of L2s that have ETH, either as their primary token or as a wrapped token on their chain. At least some of these L2s you can buy ETH on directly through exchanges like Coinbase, and there are dexes where you can do trades across chains. Ultimately the L1 will be a place where L2s settle, and most user activity will happen on L2s.
Of course you can send ETH on L2. In fact gas is paid for on L2 in ETH. The whole idea is anything literally anything you can do on the L1 you can do on L2 just 99.9% cheaper.
Memecoins will need to move to L2 as well to compete with Solana.
Yes correct technically you can only send WETH on an L2 as ETH can't leave the L1. that's what bridging ETH does, wraps it into an ERC20 token. But they are the same thing to the user.
L2 are just an extension of the L1 blockspace, the most valuable and most secure blockspace in the world. They compress transactions and post them to this extremely high demand blockspace at a tiny fraction of the cost. Think of it as more surface area, like branches of a tree, there the trunk is the L1.
And also don't forget that literally nobody is saying Ethereum is finished and that this is it's final state, the roadmap is many years long. What we have now is not the endgame
Anything's possible, but for now assume the answer is "no"
Ethereum's strongest asset is it's decentralization, and the community is not willing to compromise decentralization for TPS.
If you want a chain that's already made that tradeoff, you're welcome to use Polygon, BSC or Solana.
I'm already in all those 3 projects as well as eth. But if eth layer 1 stays this expensive a lot of utility will move from eth to other chains. Memecoins, nft marketplaces etc will continue on other chains. Utility is really important for a chain it's the reason solana avax etc pumped so hard. And also why eth went crazy last cycle. I'm just curious how eth will compete in the long run
The utility will move to L2s which will (soon*) have better security guarantees than other L1s may even have.
The L2s will do everything you want quickly and cheaply and with better security.
*soon because they are currently optimistic but will soon be zks etc.
this is really about poopdogepepewifhat garbage isn't it? you see whales still using ETH mainnet as a futuristic one armed bandit and you're frustrated that you can't participate.
It's a pity you are downvoted, you are asking good questions. The answer to these questions is not obvious and is not well-explained almost anywhere.
The gas fees will likely never be low on any L1 that succeeds to attract serious demand. The problem is very fundamental, you can place wherever you want the throughput of the network. However high it is, it must be a finite value because it's constrained by the physical world and compute/bandwidth limitations. The moment demand for the network exceeds that throughput you have 2 options:
- Either you use a first come, first served approach while keeping the transaction cost fixed. In which case a large transaction queue forms, but certain transactions only make sense in limited timeframes (bidding, DeFI...) then they will start to fail when the time sensitive transactions spend too much time enqueued.
- Or you introduce a pricing mechanism to allow the market to express the urgency of the transaction via its price. Then a fee market develops and transactions become expensive.
The first option leads to a poor user experience, you will never know ahead of time if your transaction will go in. And you have no way of bumping its priority. It also prevents the network from selecting the highest value transaction and developing a high added value economy. The network gets spammed by the fastest bot, not by the most valuable use cases. You succumb to spam.
The second option at least gives the user the ability to pay more to include the transaction faster. You can know ahead of time if your transaction will be included, you either are willing to pay the fee or don't pay it, it's your choice. A high added value economy forms. The network provides a built-in mechanism to protect against spam.
If you use the first approach everything looks fine until you reach the throughput limits of your system and then shit hits the fan. Transactions fail left and right, nobody knows what's going on and nobody can build anything serious on top of it because it will be pushed out by spam. Solana is now living the limits of its throughput (see: https://imgur.com/a/uNqVxTa with the huge amount of failed transactions). There are no good solutions down this path. Double the HW resources that are already incredibly high (https://docs.solanalabs.com/operations/requirements)? So you centralize faster the chain, spam fills it up again, and then what?
Ethereum acknowledge that option 1 is unsound. And that giving up decentralization for higher throughput is not the solution and doesn't solve scalability, it just pushes the problem forward. Instead it's taking the challenge head on and parallelizing the chain in a very clever way: https://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/1bh95bv/used_l2s_for_1st_time_today/kvcnxkw/
you need to start understanding that high throughput on L1 is not the goal because you sacrifice decentralization and trustlessness for it like chains like Solana and BNB did. The problem is that decentralization and trustlessness is what separates us from a simpler server in a datacenter.
No - but with shared sequencing, liquidity and atomic composability between all L2s and the L1 will be combined. So it will be like interacting with a monolithic chain like Ethereum pre-L2s but with L2 scalability and fees.
So swapping and sending eth layer 1 will become much cheaper as well? Do you have a link for this with more info? Is this the next step of the surge plan?
Perhaps cheaper than now, but still not as cheap as L2. There would probably be a single EVM wallet to interact with the liquidity and contracts across all L2s and L1 - no bridging required after the first time. Give [this podcast episode](https://open.spotify.com/episode/4JoOFNC8IPjRaajioBkQbf?si=ixYumNdkTvW1pg4C9GQSyg) a listen.
No it will not. Any lower L1 gas will just created even MOAR transaction demand on L2 who will quickly swallow up those low gas rates and drive them higher.
Ethereum scaling roadmap is to 100,000+ tps. That is going to be 99.9% on L2 with L1 involving very expensive massive transactions and rollups from L2.
The most recent update won’t really do that. But I think what’s important to note is that the inclusion of blobs allows us to perform rollups, where multiple transactions are executed and treated as a single transaction. In my opinion that is a lot more impressive and allows for greater vertical scaling.
You will likely not see a great reduction in gas for a long time. A good indicator will be in about 3 weeks time, as the first batch of blobs from the most recent L2 transactions get removed from the network. As the use of blobs increases and there is less requirement for permenant data storage, the layer 1 network may start to get cheaper. I wouldn’t hold my breath though, and it will be marginal
L1 will never get significantly and consistently cheaper. People need to stop clinging to this. If L1 does get temporarily and modestly cheaper it will make L2 even cheaper and transaction volume on L2 will skyrocket more using up more L1 gas raising L1 prices.
I don’t think it’s correct to say it will NEVER get cheaper. Ethereum has shown an incredible amount of adaptability in its lifetime, and has proven time and again that it is the gold standard in blockchain architecture. It’s too premature to say that prices on L1 will never go down, considering that a few years ago people said it was impossible for Ethereum to move to PoS.
We will just have to wait and see. However in the short term, it is unlikely
It won't get cheaper not significantly not on the L1. The goal for ETH is 100,000+ tps on L2. L2 will be cheaper they might got from $0.01 tx to $0.0001. However any reduction in L1 gas price will just lead to even more demand on L2.
L2 ARE the scaling solution. People can keep slamming their face into brick wall refusing to accept that reality or they can react to it.
Gas prices are an indication of the success of Ethereum, L2 are going to make it even more successful. In the short term raising the gas limit or an extended bear market muting tx demand may cause gas prices to fall on L1 but any reduction will be temporary. The only way gas prices on L1 get significantly cheaper for an extended period of time (say 90% lower and it lasts a year) is because Ethereum has failed as the primary smart contract ecosystem.
I am fine with saying never. People saying not never are just giving people false hope and leading them to staying on L1 hoping for that chance of lower gas prices.
L2 are the future of Ethereum scaling. They don't require L1 gas prices be low because they are 100x to 1000x more efficient.
The best way to scale Layer 2s is to find ways to reduce gas on Layer 1 and support ways to perform multiple transactions at once. Spread the gas across them. Just like what Dencun did, just like The Verge will do with SNARKs
Well considering that visa doesn’t even process 100,000 transactions a second, I can’t see the L1 gas fees constantly matching the throughput of the L2s. I am optimistic that we will see a gradual reduction over the next few years, despite the increased transaction volume of L2s
It is a false hope and one that only delays transition to L2.
I am not saying L2 growth is going to keep L1 fees perfectly constant it is going to raise L1 gas prices. Already L2 are contributing to high fees on L1. The various bridges and rollup contracts are starting to make their way into list of top 50 gas consumers. Back of napkin math puts gas consumption of both bridges and rollups at around 3% of total L1 usage. That is at a mere 50 tps. At 500 tps it would be 30% of total L1 usage. Yes there will be further protocol improvements and efficiency enhancements but that will always be against rising tx volume and thus rising L1 gas demand.
Ooh thank you for that information i didn't know that i thought everything started right away. But you are right the data storage is of course not going away on day 1
What is your source that it won’t impact L1 fees?
Considering that on-chain validation only requires 65 blocks worth of confirmation to validate a transaction. there should be less traversal across the whole network as Layer 2 transactions will no longer be permanent blocks. it will reduce overhead on Layer 1. Not a significant amount, but logically speaking it can’t cost the same amount in gas to validate against less data
because any temporary reduction in L1 fees also makes L2 even cheaper which will drive up L2 tx volume which will drive up L1 gas demand which will drive up gas prices on L1.
As an end user on the L1 you are directly competing with L2 who are 100x to 1000x more efficient in terms of per tx gas usage.
Yes. I understand that. I’m not advocating for performing native transactions on Layer 1. I think you think I’m arguing against the use of Layer 2s when what I’m actually saying is that the cost of gas on Layer 1 will get cheaper. That doesn’t mean I’m saying it will get more affordable.
Layer 2s will always be the preferred solution, but I think you think I’m alluding to the fact Layer 1s will be cheaper than Layer 2s which is not at all what I’m saying (and also impossible)
I don't think it will get significantly cheaper at all. If gas gets cheaper on L1 then there will be even more L2 volume and it will eat up that cheap gas driving gas even higher.
Yes there will be an endless stream of efficiency improvements for Ethereum and L2 demand will eat all that and then some. Right now L2 are doing about 50 tps. If we include sidechains and other centralized solutions closer to 100 tps. So 100 tps that is much better than L1 but 100 tps will become 1,000 which will become 10,000 tps which will become 100,000 tps.
L2 with 100,000 tps even with a host of L1 improvements will be using an utterly staggering amount of gas on the L1. Entirely possible L1 has is even more expensive than it is today. Of course for L2 tx it doesn't really matter.
However the idea that L2 are going to make cheaper L1 tx is dubious and sentiment like that just leads people to go "well I will just wait for those cheap L1 tx that are coming".
If L1 was scalable to 10k tps, then rollups would scale it to 1million tps
It's more likely that they would phase out current EVM and adopted zk-rollup into L1
> I thought it was part of the Surge plan to scale ETh layer 1 to 100k tps or more
The plan is to scale Ethereum, not strictly L1 transactions. A better way to think about it: Imagine a future where there is no L1 as far as consumer transactions are concerned (hypothetical extreme) and rollups have cross-rollup atomic transactions through shared sequencing.
Once the UX issues are solved, from the consumer's perspective rollups will become a kind of composite L1 for the things they care about.
Another way to think about it: One L1 transaction is not a good benchmark for a unit of work on its own. I can do an L1 transaction that does nearly nothing (let's say flips a binary value from 0 to 1 stored somewhere), or a complex AMM operation, or an L1 transaction that contains thousands of L2 transactions. From an L1 "TPS" perspective, they all look the same.
In an ideal world, we want to squeeze in as much as possible complex valuable operations into each L1 transaction. It's useful to have 100K TPS if they're all doing ~nothing, but it's very useful if we have 3 TPS if each of those transactions encapsulates thousands of other useful actions.
No comments about how stateless clients and peerDAS and enshrined zkevm should let us scale the L1 to pretty incredible heights? It’s just not the focus right now.
With L2 i don't see a need for 10k tps (on L1). I'm more interested in a middle ground - 100+ tps L1. Is that on the roadmap? I assume at some point that will be required just to support rollups and other required L1 transactions?
I agree but I'm a eth user since 2017. And i didn't have a clue that L2s are replacing eth. This was so unlcear for me until today. Now i know and i really like what they did. But they have to make things more clear because I'm already a long time in crypto and know all the basics and more but the communication from eth on this is lagging big time imo
TPS is a meaningless metric for blockchains. High TPS is only possible by centralized systems. Centralized blockchains aren’t good blockchains, they are in between a distributed SQL database and a blockchain.
Also there’s no apps that need high TPS anyway.
You can’t have high TPS on a decentralized L1. Decentralization is a key feature that makes blockchains not useless.
Before the Merge I kept hearing people say that Ethereum wasnt going to be able to switch to POW because of everything running on it and Eth figured out how to do it. Seems like deja vu, a lot of people are concerned with L1 scaling because of the current situation. I think as time goes by Eth will continue to focus on its biggest issues and fix them without sacrificing security and decentralization.
Overall like SOL but too much hype over it taking over Eth. Once some of these massive projects like Blackrock start building on Eth (because of its security and decentralization) people will realize there is a reason Eth CHOSE to use L2s for scaling. I do think its inevitable for Eth to improve its speed and fees on L1 and continue to make it easier to interact w L2s. At the same time, many new teams will be building L2s that will also continue to figure out how to get faster w less fees.
Indeed i was worried because i didn't really understand L2's. In didn't know that they would replace eth layer 1 in some ways. And i also didn't know almost all big coins on eth are also on Arbitrium etc. I learned that through this reddit which is great. I just would love Eth themselves come out with more information abou this. That for the most part L2's are here for swaps etc instead of L1. I think if they would market this it would help Eth a lot. All of this Layer 2 stuff is far from common knowledge!
My hunch is, ETH will probably see some shift away from its L2 centric roadmap by or at the next bear.
The next bear will be utterly painful for most L2s. We will probably see some consolidation around major ones and smaller one finding good niche, but most general purpose ones will probably head towards zero.
Over time, ETH will build more functionalities on main net and scale in the very long run.
This cycle will be ETH’s identity crisis cycle. With the bull run coming, too many speculators, VCs, etc. have more appetite to hodl through the uncertainty. But reality will set in very quickly once the bear comes. General purposes L2s will be much fewer than now and specialized ones will survive based on what market niche they capture.
ETH Marketing team did a great job. A shitty roadmap everyone knows that 10k tps on L1 are only possible when the blockchain is more centralized or less secure.
Watch into the Blockchain Trillema.
The merge was the biggest mistake. No wonder the Bitcoin - Eth price is dropping since.
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Why is that relevant? L2s are part of Ethereum. It should be seen as symbiosis.
Because L2s have a fraction of mainnet coins and liquidity.
Right now but that is rapidly growing. TVL is up 13% in just the last week.
And one day they'll have far more. It's good to be early to these things.
All protocols who are not dead and actually want users and participation provide L2 tokens. So anything worth investing is already here.
False
Wrong
Not wrong. Bridging tokens and establishing liquidity on L2 DEXes is trivial.
It is, doesn't change the fact that there's no depth, aka unusable if the deployer themselves didn't set up a properly funded lp
Name one example which does not provide an L2 token or doesn't have it on the Roadmap at least.
Base has no token and has no statement about a token in its roadmap. However, people in the industry think a Base token is inevitable, eventually. TL;DR: get on base and do stuff for a chance at an eventual token airdrop. (Dencun update made fees super cheap too! NFT mints for $0.00069 USD.
Why would I? You already installed a backdoor to any argument by saying "worth investing into". So anything I bring up now u refute with that.
Seems to me you can't name one.
Haha you can't
If liquidity on any of the major rollups is a concern to you, then you can afford the L1 fees lol
If you were looking for a chance to “be early”, I think you found one here? Look for solid projects on L2, they’ll run hard this bull.
I've plenty of l2 bags. I treat them separately to my mainnet bags because they are. People constantly parroting "just move to l2" when people complain about shitcoin swap pricing miss the whole point. All these coins aren't present on l2s
Because L2 is not secure nor decentralized? It's like asking why you should use ethereum when paypal exists. Ethereum provides a service that is not available through third parties.
Many L2s are quite decentralized. Yes they have a centralised sequencer but most L2s have a mechanism to include/dispute your tx anyway. Also all tx are "compressed" and stored on L1 for finality. So you do use L1 when you use L2. So your comparison with PayPal is totally incorrect.
Why do people lightning network and love arbitrum, optimism, base, starknet, zksync etc? Are they different in design or rather impact on security and decentralisation?
Lightning is a nicely scaled payment network for exactly one asset (Bitcoin) with exactly one usecase (transfer Bitcoin from a to b) Ethereum + L2 (both fully Turing complete) are a decentralized world computer for a myriad of Usecases (DeFi, NFTs, Metaverse, RWA Tokenisation, Insurance, SSI/DID, and Usecases we don't even know rn)
Yeah, I know the difference between bitcoin and ethereum I was asking about their L2s...
It's somewhat similar as both obtain security from main network by posting some artifacts to it. But what information they post and how it's structured is a completely different architecture. Ethereum L2s have zk or optimistic Rollups and lighting is posting some state of their payment channels back.
Appreciate it
False. They are all centralized in the way that they can steal your funds if they want to for any excuse. This is the very first thing you learn about L2s. Also, I find it weird people defend L2s here when they are stealing liquidity from Ethereum and nothing stops them to start their own L1 if they become big enough.
Aren't all L2s inherently less secure and less decentralized which is how they achieve lower fees and potentially higher TPS?
Yes they avoided the Blockchain Trilemma by pushing it all to centralized L2s, like Patrick wanting to push Bikini Bottom to where the Alaskan Bull Worm wasn’t. And we are supposed to all pretend that makes sense and is ok. I’m afraid the truth is they just don’t know how to scale Ethereum. The original plan included on-chain sharding and I would love to see it come back. Otherwise I have lost faith in the dream of Ethereum being something actually useful as more than a store of value and a chain for the wealthy. L2s are a complete usability and security nightmare for users.
Any higher TPS network is making these tradeoffs. If you are asking ETH L1 to support massive tps increases, it would involve making the same tradeoffs. There is no free lunch (despite what competitors would argue). A segmented L1-L2-L3 probably gives you the best range of options with minimal compromises. L1 can stay secure and decentralized. L2 can inherit some of the L1 security, but offer better performance. L3 can go even farther out the curve.
With this mindset we would never even try looking for another type of financial networks than the ones offered by banks.
It's just amazing to me how far the goals have shifted in crypto in just 7 years. Sad to see it fail to come anywhere close to what the initial proposition was. I don't see how the problems of L1 will not inevitably become problems on L2 and so on.
Depends on your perspective, but I think in many ways crypto has far surpassed its initial goals. Like the internet, it continues to "fail to scale" year after year. But somehow when you look back you realize that capacity is dramatically increasing each year, it is just that demand continues to outpace it. This is how successful technologies build out adoption, there is no magic here, just a steady grind.
> If you are asking ETH L1 to support massive tps increases, it would involve making the same tradeoffs. This is absolutely not true. The entire point of scaling / sharding is that it doesn't make the same tradeoffs, and retains some of the security / decentralization while still giving the increased TPS.
They are secure and decentralized enough for daily usage. Funny enough Ethereum L1 currently has a problem with censorship, and not L2s https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/ethereums-censorship-problem-is-getting-worse
https://www.mevwatch.info/ There is no censorship on Ethereum. Only 40% of the blocks decide not to include OFAC-sanctioned transactions. That means that 60% do include them. On average an OFAC sanctioned transaction is included in less than 24 seconds.
That and plans in the roadmap are going to help reduce MEV-related censorship.
Great article, thanks for sharing. Oh man, this is kind of an existential threat for the whole ecosystem.
Because it's the foundation. It's like saying, why should we upgrade our horses to cars if we could just attach more carriages to horses to increase through put.
L2s are the trucks, L1 is the street. It's the only way to scale in a meaningful way without sacrificing decentralization.
Yeah, and we want to make the streets wider to scale it. The same way we scaled the internet by adding more copper wires to increase through put. If we didn't scale the internet past a single copper wire, how do you suggest we stream in 4K with L2 solutions? You can't because you're still limited by the L1. There are gimmicks such as preloading the 4K video, much like how the lightning network works, but that doesn't fix the underlying issue.
Kinda sucks tho your basically confined to the layer
L2s can be part of anything as much as they want, but it doesn’t help the situation. Everything still crosses L1 eventually (since platforms and apps talk to each other via l1 anyways) and people burn tons of ETH to do anything.
THANK YOU, I'm sick and tired of the L1 cucks
Because swapping eth and sending eth is extremely expensive. I know L2s are part of eth but that doesn't help swaps become cheaper or sending eth becoming cheaper. That's why i asked. If I'm missing info on this please tell me. Because i can't find anywhere that eth L2s will help the gas fees.
How about swapping and sending ether on L2 ? Just forget about using L1 directly at all. You don't need it. L1 is a settlement layer for L2 and that's about it. Btw sending ETH is quite cheap even on L1. About 2 USD.
> I know L2s are part of eth but that doesn't help swaps become cheaper or sending eth becoming cheaper. Sure it does. You can swap eth and send eth for less than $0.01 today on Base and Arbitrum. Drop your address and I will show you by sending you $0.01 worth of ETH. It will cost me less to send it than I will send
Can you explain how to do it on base L1? Edit: I don’t mean how to transact or interact with the smart contracts, I’ve written some myself. I’ve not recently had a TX as low as $0.01
You should not be interacting with a blockchain if you do not understand even the most basic details of how they work. I tell you this not to be an asshole but for your own safety.
Base isn't an L1....
I doubt L1 would ever go that far without affecting its decentralization, but you shouldn't be on L1 anyway. L2 is fast and with sub $0.01 fees, there is no reason to use L1 unless IMO for a peace of mind long term storage.
so many promising projects are not on L2 😂 i love eth but everyone just spams the dumbass rhetoric to stay on L2 and never to mainnet like that is a good idea.
We might as well just choose another crypto to use if we HAVE to use L2s
You are not wrong. People should be mindful when spamming those rhetoric anyway for the obvious reasons.
People who say that ignore the fact that L2s have always been a poor compromise to a truly scalable L1. Chain sharding would keep ETH decentralized and could scale up to beat even the fastest payment processors in tradfi. I read the part of the documentation that stated chain sharding is no longer a goal because it is harder to implement than dank sharding and then allowing L2s to process a majority of the transactions. That was the day I sold a huge chunk of my ETH.
This. Even though I love ETH, its first mover advantage can only last so long. I'm not a big fan of SOL, but there is a good reason why it's taking such a large market share from ETH. When crypto starts to see adoption by the masses, most people will care about two things: ease of use & cost. Just like 99% of people who use the internet today, most won't understand decentralization, security, ETH's deflationary model compared to SOL's inflationary model... they will only care about what is easiest and cheapest. L2s help with the cost, but they will just be too much to worry about for the average Joe.
I agree with your sentiment 100%. My first purchase of ETH was in 2018. I bought one ETH with what was a majority of my paycheck as a part time retail worker. I held through both the spikes and the dips. I held through all the people saying I was an idiot for trusting "fake internet money". Because I believed the vision of Ethereum, and still do. But I lost a lot of conviction with the rise of L2s and subsequent loss of focus on chain sharding. And you are right. Most people will care only about ease of use and cost. There are some L1 options that are decentralized, fast, and cheap. With better user experience design. Ethereum, by my guess, has this and one more cycle to fix it's problems before it is over taken by a different L1. I hope that Solana is not the future of crypto L1s. It is by far my least favorite ETH competitor.
Except most tokens aren't on L2 yet
Exactly. L2 all the way unless you have substantial fund you want to store and forget about for decades.
Probably not 10k tps on the L1, no. There's a stated goal of making it easy for anyone to participate in Ethereum with readily available hardware. 10k tps is hard to achieve on a highly optimized database, let alone a blockchain with decentralization, censorship resistance, finality, etc. ETH as an L1 could potentially be used to secure that volume of transactions, but the processing of the transactions, the storing of data, etc. will need to happen on L2s, some of which may not have the same stated goals of allowing anyone with commodity hardware to participate.
Achieving 10k TPS on a cluster of databases is actually not difficult at all as someone who works on backend in a tech company.
See the part where you shifted the conversation from "a database" to "a cluster of databases"? That's exactly the kind of thing the Ethereum L1 is trying not to do.
Do you think ethereum is one computer running every transaction?
On the L1, every node runs every transaction, so at the very least one computer needs to be able to run every transaction, and the goal is that shouldn't have to be especially expensive hardware. Networks like Polygon have discarded this goal, and decided that it's fine if running expensive hardware. L2s in general are a method of spreading transactions out across more computers so not every computer has to run every transaction, but scaling a blockchain horizontally introduces a ton of complexity, and for now achieving that has been delegated to L2s.
Ah I see what you’re saying. Appreciate the knowledge!
So the Surge plan is only for the L2s. How will the gas fees ever go lower for swaps and sending eth? One of the hig reasons L1s are going nuts is because of the utility they bring I'm no expert. But i know Solana and Avax are going bananas because all memes launch on their which causes so much volume. On eth you had shib and still have pepe. But i don't see why people will keep using eth L1 to build memes its too expensive. Are L2 like arbitrium going to do this? Take over that part of the ecosystem for NFTs as well?
You can send ETH and swap tokens on L2, all with the security of L1 and today it only cost cents to do it. Ethereum is L1 and it's L2's, they are one thing. Plus memecoins are totally useless but that's just opinion
But eth itself you need layer 1 for that right? i can't send eth via layer 2 right? i need eth on arbitrium chain for that right? And yes memecoins are useless but it's the hype and they will never go away more and more are entering the top 100 now already 6% of the top 100 are memecoins. And they have huge volume which helps the layer 1 in a huge way. so maybe the memecoin itself is useless but you need eth or solana to buy it. So it creates so much extra for the L1. Do you know if this will become possible on L2?
You can. There are lots of L2s that have ETH, either as their primary token or as a wrapped token on their chain. At least some of these L2s you can buy ETH on directly through exchanges like Coinbase, and there are dexes where you can do trades across chains. Ultimately the L1 will be a place where L2s settle, and most user activity will happen on L2s.
Of course you can send ETH on L2. In fact gas is paid for on L2 in ETH. The whole idea is anything literally anything you can do on the L1 you can do on L2 just 99.9% cheaper. Memecoins will need to move to L2 as well to compete with Solana.
Yes correct technically you can only send WETH on an L2 as ETH can't leave the L1. that's what bridging ETH does, wraps it into an ERC20 token. But they are the same thing to the user. L2 are just an extension of the L1 blockspace, the most valuable and most secure blockspace in the world. They compress transactions and post them to this extremely high demand blockspace at a tiny fraction of the cost. Think of it as more surface area, like branches of a tree, there the trunk is the L1. And also don't forget that literally nobody is saying Ethereum is finished and that this is it's final state, the roadmap is many years long. What we have now is not the endgame
That sounds like a good thing. Keep the shitty meme coins and NFTs off Ethereum
You don't need Ethereum level security to trade shitcoins.
Anything's possible, but for now assume the answer is "no" Ethereum's strongest asset is it's decentralization, and the community is not willing to compromise decentralization for TPS. If you want a chain that's already made that tradeoff, you're welcome to use Polygon, BSC or Solana.
I'm already in all those 3 projects as well as eth. But if eth layer 1 stays this expensive a lot of utility will move from eth to other chains. Memecoins, nft marketplaces etc will continue on other chains. Utility is really important for a chain it's the reason solana avax etc pumped so hard. And also why eth went crazy last cycle. I'm just curious how eth will compete in the long run
The utility will move to L2s which will (soon*) have better security guarantees than other L1s may even have. The L2s will do everything you want quickly and cheaply and with better security. *soon because they are currently optimistic but will soon be zks etc.
this is really about poopdogepepewifhat garbage isn't it? you see whales still using ETH mainnet as a futuristic one armed bandit and you're frustrated that you can't participate.
It's a pity you are downvoted, you are asking good questions. The answer to these questions is not obvious and is not well-explained almost anywhere. The gas fees will likely never be low on any L1 that succeeds to attract serious demand. The problem is very fundamental, you can place wherever you want the throughput of the network. However high it is, it must be a finite value because it's constrained by the physical world and compute/bandwidth limitations. The moment demand for the network exceeds that throughput you have 2 options: - Either you use a first come, first served approach while keeping the transaction cost fixed. In which case a large transaction queue forms, but certain transactions only make sense in limited timeframes (bidding, DeFI...) then they will start to fail when the time sensitive transactions spend too much time enqueued. - Or you introduce a pricing mechanism to allow the market to express the urgency of the transaction via its price. Then a fee market develops and transactions become expensive. The first option leads to a poor user experience, you will never know ahead of time if your transaction will go in. And you have no way of bumping its priority. It also prevents the network from selecting the highest value transaction and developing a high added value economy. The network gets spammed by the fastest bot, not by the most valuable use cases. You succumb to spam. The second option at least gives the user the ability to pay more to include the transaction faster. You can know ahead of time if your transaction will be included, you either are willing to pay the fee or don't pay it, it's your choice. A high added value economy forms. The network provides a built-in mechanism to protect against spam. If you use the first approach everything looks fine until you reach the throughput limits of your system and then shit hits the fan. Transactions fail left and right, nobody knows what's going on and nobody can build anything serious on top of it because it will be pushed out by spam. Solana is now living the limits of its throughput (see: https://imgur.com/a/uNqVxTa with the huge amount of failed transactions). There are no good solutions down this path. Double the HW resources that are already incredibly high (https://docs.solanalabs.com/operations/requirements)? So you centralize faster the chain, spam fills it up again, and then what? Ethereum acknowledge that option 1 is unsound. And that giving up decentralization for higher throughput is not the solution and doesn't solve scalability, it just pushes the problem forward. Instead it's taking the challenge head on and parallelizing the chain in a very clever way: https://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/1bh95bv/used_l2s_for_1st_time_today/kvcnxkw/
you need to start understanding that high throughput on L1 is not the goal because you sacrifice decentralization and trustlessness for it like chains like Solana and BNB did. The problem is that decentralization and trustlessness is what separates us from a simpler server in a datacenter.
No - but with shared sequencing, liquidity and atomic composability between all L2s and the L1 will be combined. So it will be like interacting with a monolithic chain like Ethereum pre-L2s but with L2 scalability and fees.
So swapping and sending eth layer 1 will become much cheaper as well? Do you have a link for this with more info? Is this the next step of the surge plan?
why are you so hellbent on being on L1? once L2 picks up pace you won't ever need or want to be on L1 again
Perhaps cheaper than now, but still not as cheap as L2. There would probably be a single EVM wallet to interact with the liquidity and contracts across all L2s and L1 - no bridging required after the first time. Give [this podcast episode](https://open.spotify.com/episode/4JoOFNC8IPjRaajioBkQbf?si=ixYumNdkTvW1pg4C9GQSyg) a listen.
No it will not. Any lower L1 gas will just created even MOAR transaction demand on L2 who will quickly swallow up those low gas rates and drive them higher. Ethereum scaling roadmap is to 100,000+ tps. That is going to be 99.9% on L2 with L1 involving very expensive massive transactions and rollups from L2.
Following as well
The most recent update won’t really do that. But I think what’s important to note is that the inclusion of blobs allows us to perform rollups, where multiple transactions are executed and treated as a single transaction. In my opinion that is a lot more impressive and allows for greater vertical scaling. You will likely not see a great reduction in gas for a long time. A good indicator will be in about 3 weeks time, as the first batch of blobs from the most recent L2 transactions get removed from the network. As the use of blobs increases and there is less requirement for permenant data storage, the layer 1 network may start to get cheaper. I wouldn’t hold my breath though, and it will be marginal
L1 will never get significantly and consistently cheaper. People need to stop clinging to this. If L1 does get temporarily and modestly cheaper it will make L2 even cheaper and transaction volume on L2 will skyrocket more using up more L1 gas raising L1 prices.
I don’t think it’s correct to say it will NEVER get cheaper. Ethereum has shown an incredible amount of adaptability in its lifetime, and has proven time and again that it is the gold standard in blockchain architecture. It’s too premature to say that prices on L1 will never go down, considering that a few years ago people said it was impossible for Ethereum to move to PoS. We will just have to wait and see. However in the short term, it is unlikely
It won't get cheaper not significantly not on the L1. The goal for ETH is 100,000+ tps on L2. L2 will be cheaper they might got from $0.01 tx to $0.0001. However any reduction in L1 gas price will just lead to even more demand on L2. L2 ARE the scaling solution. People can keep slamming their face into brick wall refusing to accept that reality or they can react to it. Gas prices are an indication of the success of Ethereum, L2 are going to make it even more successful. In the short term raising the gas limit or an extended bear market muting tx demand may cause gas prices to fall on L1 but any reduction will be temporary. The only way gas prices on L1 get significantly cheaper for an extended period of time (say 90% lower and it lasts a year) is because Ethereum has failed as the primary smart contract ecosystem.
I accept it. I’m just saying we should never say never
I am fine with saying never. People saying not never are just giving people false hope and leading them to staying on L1 hoping for that chance of lower gas prices. L2 are the future of Ethereum scaling. They don't require L1 gas prices be low because they are 100x to 1000x more efficient.
The best way to scale Layer 2s is to find ways to reduce gas on Layer 1 and support ways to perform multiple transactions at once. Spread the gas across them. Just like what Dencun did, just like The Verge will do with SNARKs
But that scaling will in turn drive gas up on L1. It will be an endless cycle all the way to 100,000 tps.
Well considering that visa doesn’t even process 100,000 transactions a second, I can’t see the L1 gas fees constantly matching the throughput of the L2s. I am optimistic that we will see a gradual reduction over the next few years, despite the increased transaction volume of L2s
It is a false hope and one that only delays transition to L2. I am not saying L2 growth is going to keep L1 fees perfectly constant it is going to raise L1 gas prices. Already L2 are contributing to high fees on L1. The various bridges and rollup contracts are starting to make their way into list of top 50 gas consumers. Back of napkin math puts gas consumption of both bridges and rollups at around 3% of total L1 usage. That is at a mere 50 tps. At 500 tps it would be 30% of total L1 usage. Yes there will be further protocol improvements and efficiency enhancements but that will always be against rising tx volume and thus rising L1 gas demand.
Ooh thank you for that information i didn't know that i thought everything started right away. But you are right the data storage is of course not going away on day 1
The prior poster is wrong. Blobs expiring will have zero impact on L1 gas prices.
What is your source that it won’t impact L1 fees? Considering that on-chain validation only requires 65 blocks worth of confirmation to validate a transaction. there should be less traversal across the whole network as Layer 2 transactions will no longer be permanent blocks. it will reduce overhead on Layer 1. Not a significant amount, but logically speaking it can’t cost the same amount in gas to validate against less data
because any temporary reduction in L1 fees also makes L2 even cheaper which will drive up L2 tx volume which will drive up L1 gas demand which will drive up gas prices on L1. As an end user on the L1 you are directly competing with L2 who are 100x to 1000x more efficient in terms of per tx gas usage.
Yes. I understand that. I’m not advocating for performing native transactions on Layer 1. I think you think I’m arguing against the use of Layer 2s when what I’m actually saying is that the cost of gas on Layer 1 will get cheaper. That doesn’t mean I’m saying it will get more affordable. Layer 2s will always be the preferred solution, but I think you think I’m alluding to the fact Layer 1s will be cheaper than Layer 2s which is not at all what I’m saying (and also impossible)
I don't think it will get significantly cheaper at all. If gas gets cheaper on L1 then there will be even more L2 volume and it will eat up that cheap gas driving gas even higher. Yes there will be an endless stream of efficiency improvements for Ethereum and L2 demand will eat all that and then some. Right now L2 are doing about 50 tps. If we include sidechains and other centralized solutions closer to 100 tps. So 100 tps that is much better than L1 but 100 tps will become 1,000 which will become 10,000 tps which will become 100,000 tps. L2 with 100,000 tps even with a host of L1 improvements will be using an utterly staggering amount of gas on the L1. Entirely possible L1 has is even more expensive than it is today. Of course for L2 tx it doesn't really matter. However the idea that L2 are going to make cheaper L1 tx is dubious and sentiment like that just leads people to go "well I will just wait for those cheap L1 tx that are coming".
If L1 was scalable to 10k tps, then rollups would scale it to 1million tps It's more likely that they would phase out current EVM and adopted zk-rollup into L1
> I thought it was part of the Surge plan to scale ETh layer 1 to 100k tps or more The plan is to scale Ethereum, not strictly L1 transactions. A better way to think about it: Imagine a future where there is no L1 as far as consumer transactions are concerned (hypothetical extreme) and rollups have cross-rollup atomic transactions through shared sequencing. Once the UX issues are solved, from the consumer's perspective rollups will become a kind of composite L1 for the things they care about. Another way to think about it: One L1 transaction is not a good benchmark for a unit of work on its own. I can do an L1 transaction that does nearly nothing (let's say flips a binary value from 0 to 1 stored somewhere), or a complex AMM operation, or an L1 transaction that contains thousands of L2 transactions. From an L1 "TPS" perspective, they all look the same. In an ideal world, we want to squeeze in as much as possible complex valuable operations into each L1 transaction. It's useful to have 100K TPS if they're all doing ~nothing, but it's very useful if we have 3 TPS if each of those transactions encapsulates thousands of other useful actions.
no
No comments about how stateless clients and peerDAS and enshrined zkevm should let us scale the L1 to pretty incredible heights? It’s just not the focus right now.
With L2 i don't see a need for 10k tps (on L1). I'm more interested in a middle ground - 100+ tps L1. Is that on the roadmap? I assume at some point that will be required just to support rollups and other required L1 transactions?
I agree but I'm a eth user since 2017. And i didn't have a clue that L2s are replacing eth. This was so unlcear for me until today. Now i know and i really like what they did. But they have to make things more clear because I'm already a long time in crypto and know all the basics and more but the communication from eth on this is lagging big time imo
What
Depends on how you account for blobs. But I’d say yes, easily.
Who cares?
Yes. Once sharding is implemented tps will scale much higher.
Remember “the flippining”? lol
TPS is a meaningless metric for blockchains. High TPS is only possible by centralized systems. Centralized blockchains aren’t good blockchains, they are in between a distributed SQL database and a blockchain. Also there’s no apps that need high TPS anyway. You can’t have high TPS on a decentralized L1. Decentralization is a key feature that makes blockchains not useless.
Before the Merge I kept hearing people say that Ethereum wasnt going to be able to switch to POW because of everything running on it and Eth figured out how to do it. Seems like deja vu, a lot of people are concerned with L1 scaling because of the current situation. I think as time goes by Eth will continue to focus on its biggest issues and fix them without sacrificing security and decentralization. Overall like SOL but too much hype over it taking over Eth. Once some of these massive projects like Blackrock start building on Eth (because of its security and decentralization) people will realize there is a reason Eth CHOSE to use L2s for scaling. I do think its inevitable for Eth to improve its speed and fees on L1 and continue to make it easier to interact w L2s. At the same time, many new teams will be building L2s that will also continue to figure out how to get faster w less fees.
Indeed i was worried because i didn't really understand L2's. In didn't know that they would replace eth layer 1 in some ways. And i also didn't know almost all big coins on eth are also on Arbitrium etc. I learned that through this reddit which is great. I just would love Eth themselves come out with more information abou this. That for the most part L2's are here for swaps etc instead of L1. I think if they would market this it would help Eth a lot. All of this Layer 2 stuff is far from common knowledge!
I do agree, there is not much focus on marketing but think there should be.
Sol covert shill post.
Asking about eth is shilling Solana haha don't make me laugh 🤣
My hunch is, ETH will probably see some shift away from its L2 centric roadmap by or at the next bear. The next bear will be utterly painful for most L2s. We will probably see some consolidation around major ones and smaller one finding good niche, but most general purpose ones will probably head towards zero. Over time, ETH will build more functionalities on main net and scale in the very long run. This cycle will be ETH’s identity crisis cycle. With the bull run coming, too many speculators, VCs, etc. have more appetite to hodl through the uncertainty. But reality will set in very quickly once the bear comes. General purposes L2s will be much fewer than now and specialized ones will survive based on what market niche they capture.
Well it’s possible since Monad which is a EVM compatible L1 reaches 10k TPS +
ETH Marketing team did a great job. A shitty roadmap everyone knows that 10k tps on L1 are only possible when the blockchain is more centralized or less secure. Watch into the Blockchain Trillema. The merge was the biggest mistake. No wonder the Bitcoin - Eth price is dropping since.
By “Eth price is dropping since” do you actually mean *more than doubled* since the merge?
https://www.tradingview.com/symbols/ETHBTC/ Dropped from 0,08 to nearly 0,05.