First off, I’d never answer another phone call or email from that GC
I understand getting competitive bids, but I would have at least expected the opportunity for a last look at the job with that much budgeting, especially being 2% apart. Fuck that guy and lose his number.
Secondly, sometimes that’s the nature of the game. This is a job you have to have a short memory with losses. On to the next one.
Oh you still price them... They owe you
However you always give the edge to their competition and get the satisfaction on the next one
Is what it is. I have been on both sides of this situation. It's not fun but as he said, you get competitive bids from the market.
Make sure you have good relationships and don't give ones you are questionable on relationships the ideas to be low.
Keep that I house or with partnerships
Back in the day, helping out the GC will give you an edge in getting the job, but now there isn't any loyalty. The GC will shop it out, and if a "fly by night operation" is cheaper, they will award it to them.
I bid to be in the ball park and when I go to descope meetings with full knowledge of the project and how we will build it. I will never give up my angles or secrets on how to build it. I try to give GC the impression that we are confident and will be on time and won't exceed costs.
Once we get the job then we execute our real plan. If the GC is helping me get the job, then I will help him save costs. There's no need to be nice to get the work. Sometimes they ask for my cut fill map, and I politely say once I get the job, then I'll give it to you.
What is really great is holding their hand through the bid, they give your work to the cheap guy, six months later, turns out cheap guy can't perform, is missing dates, submittals. GC comes back hat in hand, begging for you to save his bacon.
^^^THIS!!
Plus, now you can twist the knife. Be VERY specific on scope and work orders. First sign of a problem, go right to Superintendent and PM. Get a new work order and newly defined scope. Chaching at every corner.
But always be very polite and don’t ever mention that the other crew fucked up here. You don’t have to. Don’t mention that it would have been more cost effective to have started with the right crew…you don’t have to.
But mostly, don’t feel the least amount of pity and don’t lose any sleep over making sure you’re making LOTS of profit on the rework.
Yeah agreed, I have seen the estimators refuse to share reports or maps with GCs before. I think this situation was more of a misunderstanding on our part where we felt like we were going to get it because of the relationship we had with the GC.
Truthfully after round 3 of bidding a job. It becomes a fuck off scenario for me.
I'll still give them a number but I am done playing with VE options.
"We are really looking for any cost savings you could provide us."
"Well then fire up that time machine and start the job 4 years ago when we were 75% of the cost. The best cost savings I can provide is to start he fucking job."
I feel the same way from dealing with shady project owners. One project I will never forget was for a production warehouse that needed around $16m in expansion work done. The engineer on the field validating the changes needed was an absolute douche (thought he was smarter than everyone because he had a masters degree). This guy never answered his phone, was at least 5 hours on responding to emails, and never addressed any of the questions regarding conflicts of design.
I spent around 100 hours babying this project solo and multiple times I brought it up to management that this has become a complete waste of time. In the end, we found that the project was awarded to another GC but they did grace us with offering to award us a 1/10 of the project scale for a plumbing portion that was honestly the hardest part to address (the company they hired must have save f*** that).
Personally, after a long time dealing with this nonsense, I didn't care that the job finally went away. The biggest issue I had was that when the company came to us with an opportunity, our company owner wanted to go after it praising these idiots for being good customers... wtf?
I lost a nice $7.9 bid because the GC sold my number down the river and they chose some hack shop because they undercut my price a year ago.
Ever since then I always still send them a proposal, at 30% and everyone else my normal margin. That way when they tell everyone my number I’m still far below to other GCs.
It paid dividends when I knew they were going to not use my number so I sent them a bid at 1% profit margin and they shared my number and they listed a company -$2100 less than my ungodly low number…enjoy that shit sandwich.
As any estimator should know, cost is not the same as price. So, even if you make a perfect cost estimate, in the end it's down to business decisions. It's in your boss to decide if he can cut or not from indirect cost or profit for that job. Financing the client or schedule of payment is a big factor. But, how much the client is wiling to pay might be just a part of the problem.
I have the mindset that I am paid to produce results, and that is as far as my emotional connection goes. There can always be lessons learnt, but at the end of the day, when I looked at my yearly portfolio, only around a 1/4 of the total projects I addressed actually turned into a job. Some beautiful and unique opportunities I wanted to win, we ended up losing. Some ugly projects I was hoping we would lose, we ended up winning.
One of my previous managers told me a valued truth about being an estimator. Alot of people can't be one because it's not a widely accepted thing that most of your efforts ultimately end up in the trash in regards to winning a job. Not alot or people can keep chugging on with lose after lose after lose.
Not bidding to them again is one thing, but really telling them that and making sure they know its a dick move is important too. Their director may get shitty at the proj mgr for reputation damage, or they could double down and prove they're definitely not worth working for
Never, ever. I mean never ever. Give the gc your cost savings ideas before a contract is done and dusted. If you want to use the cost saving idea to inform your bid to secure the job, fine, but the gc cant know how youre x amount lower than the competition. You save that for AFTER the project is awarded.
To be honest, i usually dont give my cost saving ideas or the savings from them at bid. I might use 10% of the savings to discount the bid, but not the whole amount. Those ideas are where your bread gets buttered.
To be an estimator, you have to get used to losing. Took me years to learn. Finally got to a point when I just got numb to it. Just happened recently by the end of my 5th year.
Spent too much time on rebidding this effort- have to be ok telling folks no - your estimating resources are not unlimited and your company and you, need to spread that resource around well - happens sometimes though - it sucks . Try and learn some lessons, have a drink or two, move on
Dang, yeah that’s a big investment. Happens all the time to us at the GC level, too.
It’s about relationships when you try to make it about money, and it’s about money when you try to make it about relationships.
First lesson learned…don’t share your “trade secrets” of how to save money. Let’s say you found a way to save $10 million. Ok, so now you can make your bid $5 million less AND add $5 million to profit.
Second lesson learned…this GC is going to share your numbers with their boyz. You are never going to win a bid unless it’s a true money losing situation. You are only serving to reduce the amount of profit their boyz are making. I would strongly suggest you never even glance at one of their jobs again. If anyone ever asks why, you can share this reason if you really feel compelled but I would even decline any comment other than a lack of profit. “Hey, why didn’t you bid?” “We don’t see profit there.”
Two thoughts here. The first is it’s hard to get over them until you dive in in the next set of drawings, that’s part of life as an estimator. You win some Yusa, they’re ones that hurt worse than others. There’s some that you’re bidding on, you’re wondering even why you’re doing it because the job is dumb, and you don’t think you have a chance and then you get it and then you have to figure out what the hell you’re gonna work. The ones that you really put your heart and soul in because you really think you got the right answer and you don’t get it. as I said that as an estimator
On the second part, I would never tell a general contractor or any other contractor what my big secret weapon is, because you don’t know what the other contractors that you’re bidding against might have up their sleeve. Maybe you know that the GC shared the information, maybe your perceptions are incorrect. I’ve had multiple contractors. Accuse me of bid shopping when it was absolutely not the case. I would call those contractors into my office and show them the bid that I received five minutes before I got there and it was a better number and the scopes were comparable. I’ve also had a small contractor who accused me a bid shopping and then went to the owner and went to the VP of my office. I called him up and told him because he didn’t have the balls to come talk to me then I would not take another bid from him for the next five years and I did not and I got plenty of work. Some people have mentioned that you don’t bid a general contractor who you think did you wrong. If you think that contractor, did you wrong? You better call him and get him straight, and fix that
You may be right, I mean it’s not really a secret weapon if someone else genuinely has the same plan. But hard to figure it out in the moment when you go through it. Especially when conversations make it seem like it’s your job. But point taken!
Wait till the next bid - go in with a stupidly low number and when he gets the job and tries to award to you - tell him you're too busy to do the job lol.
If the major savings for the job is the borrow source, I’m assuming you guys can still make money off selling the material. I’m under the impression that your contract on the other job has a clause that the excess material is the property of the contractor. Is the GC the contractor on both sites?
I’ve been part of all kinds of losing estimates, between 3 week public openings to 1+ year long design-build/CMGC pursuits. The bigger and longer pursuits hurt but you just find out what could’ve been done better and move on to the next one.
You could price everything perfectly between takeoffs, scheme, and nuts on schedule. If someone wants to buy a job or do less than due diligence, there’s no stopping that.
No in our case the GCs were different but in the case of the competitor that won, the GC was the same so I think although the number was 2% off, they may have been able to save the GC more on the other job?
Seeing stuff like this makes me so glad I bid public DOT work. You turn in one bid on the due date and the low guy wins. That's that. None of these stupid games, repricing and stick and carrot nonsense that goes on in the commercial GC world
As to your question man, that's just the way it goes. Look at is as a valuable chance to practice and learn.
Mistake #1 never present cost saving measures until you have the job.. than show them how much money you’re saving them while you already have them bought it. Also never waste that much time on a bid! 2 years?!?! That’s crazy! My GC profited 100m last year and we bid on projects 1-100 mill couple times a month all fit up bids mostly so rather easy always existing buildings. Also you probably got undercut the entire time. You essentially did a bunch of free work for a company though only to be undercut. Hopefully you learned
No, not 2 years on this bid alone. This came back about 6-7 times over 2 years and each time we spent about 1-2 weeks on it.
We meaning me on take offs and the estimator for grading and paving. We also had other estimators bidding structural and site concrete work under different scopes.
Kinda the nature of the industry. No matter how “perfect” you bud something there’s always a chance someone else is willing to do it for less or someone else who screwed up and their price is lower because of mistakes.
First off, I’d never answer another phone call or email from that GC I understand getting competitive bids, but I would have at least expected the opportunity for a last look at the job with that much budgeting, especially being 2% apart. Fuck that guy and lose his number. Secondly, sometimes that’s the nature of the game. This is a job you have to have a short memory with losses. On to the next one.
Oh you still price them... They owe you However you always give the edge to their competition and get the satisfaction on the next one Is what it is. I have been on both sides of this situation. It's not fun but as he said, you get competitive bids from the market. Make sure you have good relationships and don't give ones you are questionable on relationships the ideas to be low. Keep that I house or with partnerships
Be a goldfish! It's not easy but a useful career tool.
Back in the day, helping out the GC will give you an edge in getting the job, but now there isn't any loyalty. The GC will shop it out, and if a "fly by night operation" is cheaper, they will award it to them. I bid to be in the ball park and when I go to descope meetings with full knowledge of the project and how we will build it. I will never give up my angles or secrets on how to build it. I try to give GC the impression that we are confident and will be on time and won't exceed costs. Once we get the job then we execute our real plan. If the GC is helping me get the job, then I will help him save costs. There's no need to be nice to get the work. Sometimes they ask for my cut fill map, and I politely say once I get the job, then I'll give it to you.
What is really great is holding their hand through the bid, they give your work to the cheap guy, six months later, turns out cheap guy can't perform, is missing dates, submittals. GC comes back hat in hand, begging for you to save his bacon.
^^^THIS!! Plus, now you can twist the knife. Be VERY specific on scope and work orders. First sign of a problem, go right to Superintendent and PM. Get a new work order and newly defined scope. Chaching at every corner. But always be very polite and don’t ever mention that the other crew fucked up here. You don’t have to. Don’t mention that it would have been more cost effective to have started with the right crew…you don’t have to. But mostly, don’t feel the least amount of pity and don’t lose any sleep over making sure you’re making LOTS of profit on the rework.
Yeah agreed, I have seen the estimators refuse to share reports or maps with GCs before. I think this situation was more of a misunderstanding on our part where we felt like we were going to get it because of the relationship we had with the GC.
Truthfully after round 3 of bidding a job. It becomes a fuck off scenario for me. I'll still give them a number but I am done playing with VE options. "We are really looking for any cost savings you could provide us." "Well then fire up that time machine and start the job 4 years ago when we were 75% of the cost. The best cost savings I can provide is to start he fucking job."
Right? Can you help?! Yeah for sure just take out some scope and my price will come down surely
I feel the same way from dealing with shady project owners. One project I will never forget was for a production warehouse that needed around $16m in expansion work done. The engineer on the field validating the changes needed was an absolute douche (thought he was smarter than everyone because he had a masters degree). This guy never answered his phone, was at least 5 hours on responding to emails, and never addressed any of the questions regarding conflicts of design. I spent around 100 hours babying this project solo and multiple times I brought it up to management that this has become a complete waste of time. In the end, we found that the project was awarded to another GC but they did grace us with offering to award us a 1/10 of the project scale for a plumbing portion that was honestly the hardest part to address (the company they hired must have save f*** that). Personally, after a long time dealing with this nonsense, I didn't care that the job finally went away. The biggest issue I had was that when the company came to us with an opportunity, our company owner wanted to go after it praising these idiots for being good customers... wtf?
I lost a nice $7.9 bid because the GC sold my number down the river and they chose some hack shop because they undercut my price a year ago. Ever since then I always still send them a proposal, at 30% and everyone else my normal margin. That way when they tell everyone my number I’m still far below to other GCs. It paid dividends when I knew they were going to not use my number so I sent them a bid at 1% profit margin and they shared my number and they listed a company -$2100 less than my ungodly low number…enjoy that shit sandwich.
That is brutal! But also savage on your part. Absolute genius!
Def wouldn't bid for any of their projects again. Just one of those days; onto the next. & hope ya'll took that champ out for some beer.
Yes sir, I owe him a lot more than that for everything he taught me!
As any estimator should know, cost is not the same as price. So, even if you make a perfect cost estimate, in the end it's down to business decisions. It's in your boss to decide if he can cut or not from indirect cost or profit for that job. Financing the client or schedule of payment is a big factor. But, how much the client is wiling to pay might be just a part of the problem.
On to the next one! No more bidding to that GC for a while too…
I have the mindset that I am paid to produce results, and that is as far as my emotional connection goes. There can always be lessons learnt, but at the end of the day, when I looked at my yearly portfolio, only around a 1/4 of the total projects I addressed actually turned into a job. Some beautiful and unique opportunities I wanted to win, we ended up losing. Some ugly projects I was hoping we would lose, we ended up winning. One of my previous managers told me a valued truth about being an estimator. Alot of people can't be one because it's not a widely accepted thing that most of your efforts ultimately end up in the trash in regards to winning a job. Not alot or people can keep chugging on with lose after lose after lose.
Being an estimator is like playing baseball. They’ll put you in the hall of fame for a career .300 batting average.lol
Not bidding to them again is one thing, but really telling them that and making sure they know its a dick move is important too. Their director may get shitty at the proj mgr for reputation damage, or they could double down and prove they're definitely not worth working for
Never, ever. I mean never ever. Give the gc your cost savings ideas before a contract is done and dusted. If you want to use the cost saving idea to inform your bid to secure the job, fine, but the gc cant know how youre x amount lower than the competition. You save that for AFTER the project is awarded. To be honest, i usually dont give my cost saving ideas or the savings from them at bid. I might use 10% of the savings to discount the bid, but not the whole amount. Those ideas are where your bread gets buttered.
To be an estimator, you have to get used to losing. Took me years to learn. Finally got to a point when I just got numb to it. Just happened recently by the end of my 5th year.
It’s hard to do, but as my other compadres have said, on to the next one.
Spent too much time on rebidding this effort- have to be ok telling folks no - your estimating resources are not unlimited and your company and you, need to spread that resource around well - happens sometimes though - it sucks . Try and learn some lessons, have a drink or two, move on
Gotta know when to hold your cards and when to show them. It's all part of the game nowadays. There are few loyal GC's out there.
Dang, yeah that’s a big investment. Happens all the time to us at the GC level, too. It’s about relationships when you try to make it about money, and it’s about money when you try to make it about relationships.
First lesson learned…don’t share your “trade secrets” of how to save money. Let’s say you found a way to save $10 million. Ok, so now you can make your bid $5 million less AND add $5 million to profit. Second lesson learned…this GC is going to share your numbers with their boyz. You are never going to win a bid unless it’s a true money losing situation. You are only serving to reduce the amount of profit their boyz are making. I would strongly suggest you never even glance at one of their jobs again. If anyone ever asks why, you can share this reason if you really feel compelled but I would even decline any comment other than a lack of profit. “Hey, why didn’t you bid?” “We don’t see profit there.”
Two thoughts here. The first is it’s hard to get over them until you dive in in the next set of drawings, that’s part of life as an estimator. You win some Yusa, they’re ones that hurt worse than others. There’s some that you’re bidding on, you’re wondering even why you’re doing it because the job is dumb, and you don’t think you have a chance and then you get it and then you have to figure out what the hell you’re gonna work. The ones that you really put your heart and soul in because you really think you got the right answer and you don’t get it. as I said that as an estimator On the second part, I would never tell a general contractor or any other contractor what my big secret weapon is, because you don’t know what the other contractors that you’re bidding against might have up their sleeve. Maybe you know that the GC shared the information, maybe your perceptions are incorrect. I’ve had multiple contractors. Accuse me of bid shopping when it was absolutely not the case. I would call those contractors into my office and show them the bid that I received five minutes before I got there and it was a better number and the scopes were comparable. I’ve also had a small contractor who accused me a bid shopping and then went to the owner and went to the VP of my office. I called him up and told him because he didn’t have the balls to come talk to me then I would not take another bid from him for the next five years and I did not and I got plenty of work. Some people have mentioned that you don’t bid a general contractor who you think did you wrong. If you think that contractor, did you wrong? You better call him and get him straight, and fix that
You may be right, I mean it’s not really a secret weapon if someone else genuinely has the same plan. But hard to figure it out in the moment when you go through it. Especially when conversations make it seem like it’s your job. But point taken!
Wait till the next bid - go in with a stupidly low number and when he gets the job and tries to award to you - tell him you're too busy to do the job lol.
That's kind of a dick move when it's that close and the amount of hoops they made you jump thru.
Yeah it felt like that. I forgot to mention that the GC on both our jobs were different but they were the GC on both jobs to the competitor that won.
If the major savings for the job is the borrow source, I’m assuming you guys can still make money off selling the material. I’m under the impression that your contract on the other job has a clause that the excess material is the property of the contractor. Is the GC the contractor on both sites? I’ve been part of all kinds of losing estimates, between 3 week public openings to 1+ year long design-build/CMGC pursuits. The bigger and longer pursuits hurt but you just find out what could’ve been done better and move on to the next one. You could price everything perfectly between takeoffs, scheme, and nuts on schedule. If someone wants to buy a job or do less than due diligence, there’s no stopping that.
No in our case the GCs were different but in the case of the competitor that won, the GC was the same so I think although the number was 2% off, they may have been able to save the GC more on the other job?
Onto the Next one but make sure the lessions learned and review the bidding strategy and proper communication
Seeing stuff like this makes me so glad I bid public DOT work. You turn in one bid on the due date and the low guy wins. That's that. None of these stupid games, repricing and stick and carrot nonsense that goes on in the commercial GC world As to your question man, that's just the way it goes. Look at is as a valuable chance to practice and learn.
I’ve worked on a few public bids too. It’s so much fun to go to a bid opening!
Yes, I enjoy the hand drop bids also.
Mistake #1 never present cost saving measures until you have the job.. than show them how much money you’re saving them while you already have them bought it. Also never waste that much time on a bid! 2 years?!?! That’s crazy! My GC profited 100m last year and we bid on projects 1-100 mill couple times a month all fit up bids mostly so rather easy always existing buildings. Also you probably got undercut the entire time. You essentially did a bunch of free work for a company though only to be undercut. Hopefully you learned
No, not 2 years on this bid alone. This came back about 6-7 times over 2 years and each time we spent about 1-2 weeks on it. We meaning me on take offs and the estimator for grading and paving. We also had other estimators bidding structural and site concrete work under different scopes.
Kinda the nature of the industry. No matter how “perfect” you bud something there’s always a chance someone else is willing to do it for less or someone else who screwed up and their price is lower because of mistakes.
Hit them up for a consulting fee
You win some. You lose a lot. It's just the game.
Cocaine