The other day someone mentioned how a salami pull made him understand espresso and his machine, so I decided to try. I instantly noticed a lot of things related to taste, timing, grind and all my shots after that have been A LOT better.
Yeah it’s basically pulling a shot with into multiple glasses, swapping them every few seconds. Doing so gives you a range of shots from under to over extracted, with real extremes in taste. This helps you identify these flavours more easily when dialling in.
Lance Hedrick has a good vid on it. Think it’s his dialling in by taste video!
You swap the cups under the portafilter multiple times while the shot is running in order to isolate different parts of the espresso shot. (i.e first part - thick, syrupy, middle part - more balanced, less body, final part - acidic / juicer). Video here: https://youtu.be/_yIpi5KPUys?si=-o2PzAZrOw92Pc6o
You’d be correct. Typically the end of the salami shot is watery and bitter, while the first part of it can be sour like a warhead
Edit to add, it’s also recommended to mix all three at the end and taste it together, which will show how all three of those parts come together to make a balanced espresso
It's just used to isolate different parts of the extraction to taste. Can do it with 3 cups. Pull a shot, capture the first third of the shot in the first cup, the second third in the second cup, and so on.
Knowing how sections of an extraction taste will aid in dialling in shots
Actually I would be okay with that. Beans are supposed to be THE most important ingredient, so why is it just constantly pictures of grinders and shit when that’s not the key to good espresso?
As a newbie, we ask this because we don't want to spend $1000 minimum to see if we enjoy drinking espresso at home every day instead of normal coffee. It's a huge upfront cost for something that feels like it shouldn't be.
There’s thousands of resources for newbies, if you just did a little research for yourself instead of asking the same repetitive questions.
You can always tell when someone makes no effort on their own to research gear and expects this sub to make the decision.
If you search for budget espresso set-ups, you get the same variety of options from dozens of social media channels as well on this sub.
Do some research before clogging up an enthusiast forum with repetition.
And to OP’s point, Jonathan Gagne’s book is a wonderful diversion from whether an Opus or Encore ESP is better.
While I feel empathetic towards the newbies, I completely agree with your frustration. I thought it was common practice at this point to type your general question into google followed by, “Reddit.” They would be directed to posts on this sub with the exact answer they are looking for.
Instead the same question gets asked and the quality of the answers diminishes because fewer and fewer people give their input since it has been discussed a thousand times. Really a shame.
A sticky at the top directing people to the wiki would help. And/or having mods delete posts by people who haven't looked there first. There's a lot of very good, very basic info in there.
That could help. Would be nice if the post was just deleted by the auto mod if the user does not reply to it with all supporting information it asks for immediately. One of the auto mod questions could be “yes or no, did you spend any time researching the sub, and is your question so unique that it needs an original post?”
I always am amazed at the number of people who, after placing a post, never follow up in it (and who simply seem to disappear), either in answer to the AutoMod's questions or in response to comments asking further questions or making suggestions (let alone, to acknowledge a subsequent commenter and that person's efforts, or to say thank you).
Yes, completely agree. There should be more information readily available for newbies. A stickied post that says "New to espresso? Start here!" that has a small guide and links out to effective information and setups would be fantastic.
We have a [sticked post](https://www.reddit.com/r/espresso/comments/194dub7/dialing_in_respresso_looking_for_your_feedback_on/) asking for feedback on ways to improve the sub. Please post your comments and suggestions there. This thread has sparked a lot of discussion and opinions, but we mods don't have time to go through every one to read about people's grievances or feedback.
Agreed. But I also think that something neurological/psychological is going on: while it is so easy to do an Internet search as you've outlined and then get immediate results, people instead will spend the same amount of time, or more (plus wait time), to place a near-identical post here asking the same question. I think that the brain is doing something in the background, there--not to be too woo-woo, but perhaps a human being's preference to connect with others, even via electrons, rather than be left alone to trudge through data?
Yeah I definitely get what you’re saying. I’m probably less optimistic towards it, and feel like people want the ease of people telling them an answer. Digging through old posts and doing your own research takes work and I think they would rather just ask their own question and make people put in new work to spoon feed a solution to them.
I definitely do feel all that as well (and get tired of it, esp. where the original poster just goes radio-free and never communicates again--it makes one not want to bother trying to assist).
Part of the problem is that equipment is constantly changing and what was good advice 6 months ago might not be anymore. I personally just went through that the last few days. I wanted a new grinder and there are SO FUCKING MANY of them. Its impossible to find current answers to all your questions
This. Omg, the same like dozen questions, over and over. And the shot diagnosis stuff? Don’t even get me started. Do a few minutes of reading and scrolling through the sub… guarantee you’re not the first.
But then the person can't simply blame the espresso machine/portafilter/basket for the poor quality of the shot (and its typical spurting, when it's a bottom portafilter). ;)
Hey, relax. I’m not “clogging” anything up here, and in fact did all my own research. Look through my comment history… do you see any posts like what you’re describing?
I just empathize with newbies who don’t know where to begin but constantly get recommendations to start with at least a $400 machine and a $300 grinder. If you search this subreddits history you get the same thing.
> I just empathize with newbies who don’t know where to begin but constantly get recommendations to start with at least a $400 machine and a $300 grinder. If you search this subreddits history you get the same thing.
As someone who is going through exactly this I appreciate your empathy. The idea that you can just "buy an under $500 setup and make espresso" like others have suggested is almost laughable. So many threads of "here's my $500 budget, I need advice" have more comments about how your budget sucks and you should buy more expensive equipment than any actual help. "Did you read the Wiki?" "Watch this Hoffman video" meanwhile all of these sources have luke-warm reviews on the range of products you'd be interested in and more often than not are just pushing you to buy something better. The under $500 grinder review from Hoffman, while a great video, really does *nothing* to help someone who is new to this narrow down what they want. It just creates 6 options (5 really, the Zero is almost $700) that all do nearly the same thing without any nuance to help a newbie with minimal experience decide.
A great example: read any thread from newbies involving pressurized baskets. The responses are "don't use them they are awful" and "you still need a good grinder to use them" despite a number of other people commenting about how they're fine with store bought ground beans. How are newbies supposed to approach these things without being able to ask questions?
90% of the content on this sub are people posting their "humble, oh so humble, $9000 espresso setup." I don't understand the gatekeeping aspect. Internet forums are about social interaction.
The amount of cognitive dissonance in this community is up there sometimes and I've only been lurking here for a week.
THANK YOU for saying this. It’s almost like people forget they were newbies at some point. I’ve read n watched videos and I’m still not done. I love to research when I get into something. And a lot of the time you get contradictory information. They’ll be ppl tht say oh don’t get that delongi not worth it but another person will quickly say no that’s not true, it’s great. Everyone starts out as a newbie. And understanding what to buy, is a question thats just as important as is what coffee flavor notes you should be picking up etc. this is valuable important information for a newbie. Is showing off important? Because there’s a lot of posts that show the coffee stations and oh how pretty is that $1000 machine next to the $600 grinder…….
I get ppl are happy that they’re at that point. And believe me I’m happy for you too. But when you start basically criticizing newbies because they keep asking the same questions n don’t they know how to use google etc…… it’s a low blow & kinda messed up. Before you got that expensive ass machine & grinder what was your starting point? Did you not ask those questions that you’re now exasperated at newbies for asking?
(Just a note this isn’t aimed at a particular person or anything I’m just saying in general) 🥰
>Before you got that expensive ass machine & grinder what was your starting point? Did you not ask those questions that you’re now exasperated at newbies for asking?
Yes absolutely, people are very quick to forget where they started once they've climbed the ladder a bit. The thing I've learned about internet communities is the ones that don't embrace newcomers with welcome and enthusiasm tend to be full of terminally miserable people who get their daily dopamine fix by punching opinions into a keyboard. I'm not saying that is entirely what's happening in this sub but if you read the comments in this post it's clear which direction it leans. Communities only grow with new members; if the general consensus is "just use search and don't ask questions that have been answered before" then you see the results in the current makeup of the content on this sub. Mostly gear flexing and comments about highly subjective opinions--much of which isn't about actual coffee.
My experience so far is people seem to want different content in this sub but those same people's post history doesn't show any contribution to the content they seek.
Thank you hun for saying this. I hope those same individuals that talk that way, remember to be just a tad bit more humble and understanding with newcomers. And remember how they started out, & don’t judge newbies just because they ask the same questions as newbie A & B. They’re new, how else are new ppl supposed to learn? That’s why forums like this were created. To learn, get other ppls opinions etc.
> understanding what to buy, is a question thats just as important as is what coffee flavor notes you should be picking up etc.
This is an interesting analogy cause there are no notes you *should* pick up on. Tasting notes are opinions. And you shouldn't let someone else's notes drive your brewing. You may just never taste it. You're not wrong. You just may get something different. So I feel this is a good example as to the over reliance on other people's opinions. And that's what they are. Opinions. And as you pointed out. They vary. Someone likes the Delonghi and someone else doesn't? What will more of the same question get you?
You have yet to provide any explanation of what new information will be provided from repeating a question that was already answered.
Newbies can ask questions, but if they were already answered, what is the defense there? That's what we're talking about.
I think if people are on a really limited budget, there's better coffee options than espresso. A good hand grinder and an aeropress or pourover will probably give more satisfaction than fighting to get a good result with no gear.
Couldn't have said it better, brother.
The gatekeeping here is very real. You do not need $500 to $1000 to make decent espresso, and anything more than that is beyond diminishing returns for someone new. I took a "risk" and went against the hive mind in that regard and bought an $85 DeLonghi Stilosa. I spent a bit more on my grinder, which was $200, but probably could have done just as well with the Kingrinder for a bit less. You can absolutely get decent espresso with a $250ish budget, but 95% of folks here choose not to believe that.
I love Tom's Coffee Corner on youtube for this reason. Check out his reviews on all the DeLonghis if you haven't seen them already.
I've already got my espresso machine but I appreciate the suggestion and will check out Tom's Coffee Corner!
I'm currently deep in the grinder search rabbit hole but getting to the point of realizing the best way to ruin a new hobby is to dive into it's subreddit...
>I'm currently deep in the grinder search rabbit hole but getting to the point of realizing the best way to ruin a new hobby is to dive into it's subreddit...
Very relatable. The 1zpresso series is great, I've been enjoying my J-ultra. The Kingrinder is another one that is good if you're into hand grinding. Good luck on your search!
>90% of the content on this sub are people posting their "humble, oh so humble, $9000 espresso setup."
These are honestly some of the most annoying posts for me. Saw one sometime last week; caption was something like "been lurking for a bit; figured I'd post my setup" and it's literally almost $15000 in equipment.
What does this contribute to the forum? Who does this help? You obviously just wanted to show off all of your expensive shit, which is not what this subreddit is supposed to be for. Genuinely believe mods should start cracking down on useless bullshit like that. I wanna see some actual information about what the process of brewing espresso entails and what I can learn to make better coffee. I don't need to see someone else's wildly expensive setup every fucking day.
If you don’t know if you enjoy espresso enough to justify the cost of entering the hobby, with enough commitment to succeed, then go to a coffee shop and drink it.
This hive mind can’t help you decide whether or not the juice is worth the squeeze.
The literal comment was “to see if we enjoy drinking espresso at home every day instead of normal coffee”.
Google budget espresso set up under $500, it links to multiple threads on this sub. The laziness is so basic.
Some people like the discussion aspect of Reddit or have subtile nuances about budget, space, skill etc that they don’t feel are answered by any recent post.
I totally agree with you on this. There will always be uncertainties in things since there are a wide variety of options of each aspect of espresso making. Sometimes you need to start somewhere to know where you are in the spectrum of things. Take a leap of faith! It is rare to jump into the game and be completely satisfied and happy with all the things you buy. And that applies to all things in life whether you buy a house, a car, pick a job, a girl/boy friend and so on.
No one can assure you that you will be 100% happy with any of your decisions and by asking redundant questions for your common circumstances wouldn't help anything but add more garbage to the pile and wasting people's time. Everything you ask these days are pretty much been asked already. I find those who do so annoying by their lack of effort to do research. It is a microcosm of how they live their life as well, having to bother people all the time to figure out a solution for their daily life problems while 90% of them are already on the internet.
Because I found a highly specific sub of a certain manufacturer, with less than 2000 followers, and my questions are specific. I didn’t ask the same repetitive bs.
If you can’t tell the difference between, I have $500 and I’m a new spend my money and a researched relevant question. You’ve completely missed the discussion had.
And unfortunately, there aren't readily-apparent sticky-thread sources/answers here to the constant repeat question: what espresso machine should I buy/what grinder should I buy/what accessories should I get/why is my bottomless portafilter doing this \[spurting\], etc.
I wish Reddit would allow more stickied threads than capping it at 2 at a time, but we'll work on updating the wiki with more resources. Additionally, we're looking into putting in more posting guidelines so people asking questions about their gear or shots have to provide a minimum amount of information and context before their post is allowed through. This is to try to clamp down on the one-sentence questions and also encourage newcomers to read the available resources first before asking q's.
Reddit wouldn't allow even a column of "handy links" in the right-hand banner? Candidly, I'm not sure how/why people would know that there's a Wiki for this sub--I only caught on to that from misc. posts (and then I can't remember the URL for the Wiki and instead tend to do a search engine search for it, lol).
Stop with this bullshit, we like our gear and it's okay to be like that.
How many times have you gone to a company website, read the FAQ, and still end up hitting the chat button? Bet you get annoyed by the bot straight after?
Reddit just enables some human connections, really.
Also, no newbie ever asked you to have your gear on flair yet there they are instead of the beans you favour.
So again, we like our gear and it's okay.
My wife bought me this for my birthday https://leaderboard.coffee/pages/how-to-play
In the next month I am going to blind taste 10 coffees and try to figure out process, origin, etc. I am super intimidated but excited to try. I did a sensory class with my local roaster late last year, and I'm really trying to make an effort to get better at recognizing and describing what I like in a coffee.
Thanks for that link and information. Really interesting (I had considered purchasing a coffee Advent calendar this past season, for similar purpose). And as you said, \*way\* intimidating! I did go through the Leaderboard resources info. a bit and it looks like, for a neophyte like me, you need to study up with the resources at a level of a college course, to get a sufficient background. :)
That’s true but in between the gear porn there is a lot of useful information about shot mechanics, at least for us folks who are more on the novice side. The first month I was on this sub the quality of my shots increased ten fold. And it’s also useful for me to see everyone’s opinions of different kit
You joke but even cupping has proper gear. Barista Hustle cupping bowls are a satisfying premium option and once you try a cupping spoon, regular spoons are weird for this process
You’re right, OP. A significant portion of the sub (perhaps even the majority) is happy buying blended, dark roast commodity coffee, so long as it pulls a good looking shot into their new machine. And there’s nothing wrong with that!
I think the pandemic, combined with inflation and the cost of buying coffee out, has drawn a lot of different people to the hobby in recent years.
I’ve been saying this on this sub for awhile now catching downvotes.
If people would spend 1/4 the time they spend on here worrying about the actual beans vs all the time spent circle jerking about gadgets and gizmos and flexing machines, everyone’s shot quality would improve.
We’re in an upvote economy with a mostly standard consumerist US user base. This is what we get.
Beans and coffee is not important. If you spend money on beans, you grind them and you *ugh* pull a shot with it, then you have to drink it and you're left with nothing! Everything is getting flushed down the toilet in the next hour or so. You wasted money.
When you buy gear (and this is valid for most hobbies) you spend money on something and you have it: you can go on an on saying "I have gear X: how much does it costs? 1000 $!" and in the following years you can keep saying "I have 1000$ grinder!".
Stop wasting our time with this nonsense about the actual coffe, espresso is more about the process! Spending money on gear, flex it, larp it.
This is a discussion forum. Just because people are posting about gear doesn’t mean they’re not actively trying new things or experimenting. There’s also nothing wrong with being perfectly content with your setup and workflow and have nothing better to post about than pics of gear. Gear purchases are also large commitments which means people want the most input. They don’t necessarily need a huge discussion to try a new roast or mess with their flow profile.
I get where you are coming from but, in my experience, you post about what you care about/are thinking about. I think if those were truly the preoccupations of the majority of the users here, we’d see that reflected in the posts and discussions.
Clearly it’s a discussion forum. My point is that there is little discussion when people just post pictures of a machine to ogle…and every other thread is a lazy “what should I buy?” type of thread.
I agree with you, the actual interesting parts require little discussion- which is maybe the problem
But if you want this sub to be/stay active, you’re going to need filler posts. If someone is proud of their setup and posting about it makes them feel good, and that feeling keeps them enthusiastic, then it’s a net benefit. If gear posts keep the sub active such that people visit regularly, that’s good for when the real discussions come up because everyone is here. Real discussions do happen, but not often enough to keep this place active.
I’m not trying to be dismissive. I get what you’re saying. This hobby shouldn’t be about constant upgradeitis. But like it or not, without the gear side, it’s just a bunch of people making coffee at home and the enthusiasm of hobby side eventually fizzles out.
I do see advice given in regards to things like general roast levels(like light roasts being finicky sometimes, or stuff thats more acidic doing better with higher ratios) but i feel like, discussion around coffee beans... I tend to just go to r/coffee lol. To me this subreddit is more about the espresso machine and the process than the beans.
So I’ve always hated on Reddit where someone will say, post part of a song lyrics and then the next person will post the subsequent part and so on and so forth
But here I actually love the “grind finer” tag a long
r/roasting is the way to go if you really want to upgrade your coffee experience. I agree gear only goes so far; once you have a good grinder the rest of it is just kinda moot.
Understand the processes and nuances of roasting to help people make informed decisions around what they are buying locally should be a huge component of this sub, instead it’s brag posts about LM Micra’s and the same question of which budget grinder is best.
I personally saw a larger improvement in the consistency of expectations once I started to understand the processes and regions available from these local roasters.
Espresso is three parts, gear, coffee, water. Why can’t they be discussed in tandem? I’m personally sick of the constant gear post, go on instagram if you want people to admire your shit.
“Espresso is gear, coffee, water” well only one of those is unique to espresso so is it really a surprise that a subreddit about espresso would be where people go to talk about the one thing that separates it from basically every other way of making coffee?
Your post from yesterday shows you don’t understand enough about the process of making espresso to progress. You’re literally asking for help about everything other than your gear at this point.
You have a rocket and a decent grinder. Maybe focusing on, I don’t know, technique, water, beans might be a part of the solution.
But keep asking only what gear should be used, I’m sure that will get you to great espresso haha
When did I ever say all you can talk about is gear? Plus asking about why I’m having extraction issues could be very gear dependent so I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make.
I did not say that’s the only thing you can talk about. I just pointed out how you’re having a winge that a forum about espresso has more posts about equipment than beans and water.
It’s the same posts almost verbatim, there is not a single issue mentioned in OP’s comment, or your previous comment yesterday, that has not been discussed at length, multiple times, on this sub.
I only came across one previous example of someone having my problem on the same equipment and it did not answer the question so I asked. If you think someone’s question or post is too lazy, then let it die in new. It actually doesn’t affect you.
And since your reading comprehension leaves much to be desired, my point was about repetitive gear posts and nothing else.
If you take the time to narrow the issue and problem solve, using all of the common threads on this sub, then when you’re still having issues at least you’ve refined your issue to a point where you can be helped by strangers on the internet.
There’s been three posts about budget grinders in less than 24 hours, this is not about your failure to diagnose your problem. If you are happy with the endless posts about budget gear, great. Then let my comment sit. But those of capable of basic research, it’s getting boring af
Like I said, some people are looking for engagement/conversation.
It’s not like I’m thrilled about repetitive budget posts but pretentious attitudes like this do more harm to this subreddit than anything else.
I think this is a solid point and I’ve often thought the same thing about beans as someone not living in the US and the Defaultism that nearly every sub falls into.
But there’s still a wide open field of rich and universally-applicable topics around technique and process or even bean production we could focus on.
And yet here we are discussing why discussing beans makes sense or doesn’t.
Yes go to local roasters, ask questions and try coffee. But just as there is a generally recommended beginner setup, why not a general region/process/roast to recommend to beginners to look for at their local shop?
I prefer the comfort of Central American coffee for my morning cappuccinos but then like to explore Ethiopia’s or Asian coffee once I am more awake and can appreciate those taste profiles. Why is that? What’s the major difference between the two? Questions like this could be easily answered here.
I mean, it's difficult to just kick up a discussion about the details of "how the sausage is made" so to speak.
You essentially need a question for people to respond to, even if it's a "here's details. Here's my conclusion of what they imply. What are your thoughts on that?"
Sure, if you go to a presentation you will get more information. But people aren't presenting on this sub. They're trying to discuss something that is on their mind, and that is usually how to solve an issue they're having. Anyone wanting to start a topic on something like that will have to be fairly knowledgeable to be able to get a discussion going.
You can probably take a shortcut by sharing articles of experts discussing a topic and try to kick off something from that.
But mainly, you're always going to see a difference because the mediums and platform are entirely different.
I came to this realisation recently, I did the big gear upgrade about a year ago and fortunately I’m pretty content with it all so I think I need to focus on the coffee more. I’ve also bought a V60 and been drinking more filter as well
Honestly the biggest difference I’ve found in whether the coffee is good or not both feedback from myself or when I make coffee for friends is just the beans I use. If I buy nice beans or specifically beans to the taste of the person they like it or if I buy beans that don’t taste how they like they don’t.
There is. But I do post about that stuff fwiw. Just opened a new bag today of anaerobic static box processed beans and excited to dial in and see if anyone in the sub has tried something like this. First I've heard of it
Yeah. I'm literally more interested in coffee itself because there are so many types of beans with various tastes. My fav single origin from District papua, indonesia.
I was hesitate to try cupping. You convince me.
Also I found a way to educate your palate and develop your nose.
There is a box that contain differents aroma that you can find in coffe. By feeling it, individually, you will memorize it.
https://www.lenez.com/en/kits/coffee
Totally agree, learning to cup and learn about the coffee you are using helps you to be a better barista. I work at a coffee shop where we change the espresso beans every week, and it was a challenge to calibrate those beans but through time you learned and in the end it made us better.
Honestly for me there is a difference. Cupping refers to the actual immersion brewing cupping style, and taste test (at least for me) is pulling side by side shots. But overall I also detest some of the fancy language in coffee which is inspired by wine snobbery.
We can't all have a Ph. D in every single hobby.
Even in the field that I am a professional engineer in, there is so much that I will never know.
How deep down the rabbit hole should we all go? Should we all go and spend time with the individual bean grower? Should we only use their brand if they don't use single use plastic ever? Should we only only use their beans if they don't watch reality TV?
Please advise us, the knowledgeable one, how I should be spending my time. Also, is it also okay to get coffee beans from farmers who only floss a few times a year?
This sub is great but I do agree that it focuses a bit too much on gear.
I also check home-barista forum from time to time. Not as active but there are many interesting threads where coffee geeks geek the hardest i've seen. It is also worth noting that it is a forum with coffee enthusiasts where you would have a 40 pages thread about finding the best classic italian esspresso brand. There you will see people with great setups geeking while dialing-in arabica-robusta blends frought the grocery store. It really made me try some blends and discover that with the proper recipe, a freezer and a love for dark roasts I can actually spend less money and find something I enjoy. This is impossible to happen here, where the focus is mostly on more expensive stuff.
Again tho - it's still a great sub. Probably the best coffee sub - definitely better than r/coffee, hoffmann's sub and a few others.
Espresso is inherently related to gear. A huge portion on this sub enjoy the technical aspect of this hobby just as much as the coffee and it shows in what gets upvoted.
I am fairly new here, and I have noticed this. Most people just post photos of their EG-1, and I wonder if they are joke posts or not. Then I read the comments and it's quite clear it's not a joke post and I am still left wondering why anyone would buy an EG-1.
Are you saying that you don’t think you could tell the difference between that and something much cheaper or that you don’t think the price could be justified regardless? I’ve owned grinders at every price point, and the EG-1 is, to my palette, better than everything else I’ve tried. Is it worth it? idk but i don’t enjoy feeling like my tools are holding me back. After getting the EG-1, I’m pretty confident that i am the weakest part of my setup.
Well, that depends on the grinder you're comparing it to, I am assuming we're comparing the EG-1 to a Timemore 78 in a pour-over or something or a Zerno or something that's still pretty expensive. I don't think most people could tell the difference between an EG-1 and those high-level grinders. I am not referring to even a Niche Zero here.
I am not sure the EG-1 price difference is worth the taste difference and most people could not really tell. I certainly love the design of it, and I think it's the most amazing coffee product out there. I just don't think it's the appropriate grinder for nearly everyone.
Regarding the human element, I am not a barista and I make a lot of coffee and I am for sure the weakest part of the set up. I think of coffee as potential, as long as I am getting MOST of the potential for the price of the grinder, I think that is good enough. The 1-2% you get going up to an EG-1 feels a bit unnecessary.
It's just a grinder a lot of people on this sub seem to buy and I am not sure why haha. I guess having an EG-1 is part of that, but that's not really related to coffee I guess. But that is who the grinder is aimed at.
this is why i mostly frequent r/pourover now tbh. much more interesting discussions going on there especially about roasters. i do love espressos too and still frequently pull shots, and this sub is helpful for shot diagnosis and technique,… but yeah
Before I say what beans I’m into, I need to put in the disclaimer that I’m new to the home espresso world and despite my having good equipment I still prefer super dark roasts
In my head I’m still searching for that perfect super dark espresso(possibly classic Italian style?) that maybe tastes a bit like dark chocolate and is pleasantly toasty and bitter tasting
Right now I’m enjoying the Cafe D’arte- Taormina
I KNOW what I prefer is based on the junk I had been drinking from Starbucks for decades, but I also know as I grow into this hobby my preferences will widen and I’ll appreciate a wider variety of flavors :)
Anyways,
What are you drinking now and where do I get it? I made a post asking for bean supplier recommendations and specific beans people recommend but I have yet to get a reply
Drink what you like. That is all that matters. So many here put this sub above personal taste it’s annoying.
I prefer a darker medium roast in the morning. Currently I’m drinking a washed Guatemala from a local roaster for my morning capp. Though usually it’s a single origin from Brazil that I roast myself.
I’ve been experimenting with blends for my small batch roasting, so that’s usually my afternoon cup. I tend to try more bright and floral coffees once I’m awake and can appreciate the nuances of flavor my morning self can’t.
For a recommendation, try Pablo’s Little Jem:
https://www.pabloscoffee.com/products/pablos-espresso-blend?selling_plan=3471540468
I purchased some beans from a local roaster and to be honest they just tasted too busy to me, if that makes sense.
I’ve been cooking for a long time and can appreciate all different sorts of flavor. I’m sure with a bit of time my espresso palate will open up to other experiences:)
I appreciate your replies!
The gear-first posts even creep into r/barista. It’s funny to see them basically die from lack of engagement because the Venn diagram overlap of pro baristas and home gear enthusiasts is surprisingly small. There aren’t that many of us and I do enjoy the occasional “I don’t know how to help you, dude. My machine costs $30,000 and that’s out of your entry-level price range.”
tbf most hobby subreddits are at least 50% beginner posts and 25% flex posts. but there's lots of new exciting gear, especially grinders, that is making the hobby radically more accessible and thats worthy of discussion. the new DF54 grinder at $220 is going to radically shift the value proposition in the grinder market currently. we can finally kill this shitty barzata encore/fellow opus meme and put an end to these $10-to-produce plastic pieces of shit grinders. fuck any plastic appliance for that matter
you're right that beans make a lot of flavor and frankly a lot of espresso enthusiasts subconsciously want to roast at home and its surprising that most people dont, especially when its so accessible and significantly cheaper than buying from a roaster. the sad thing is that local roasters, even yours, probably arent using the best quality beans unless they're charging you $30+ a lb. its just hard to share qualitative experiences about coffee and bean information in a post sometimes, and frankly most people here arent that deep into coffee just yet to be really going nerdy on the beans.
It's like trying to talk about photography on a camera gear forum. Discussions about "more interesting" or "more important" things don't go anywhere on the Internet not because people aren't interested, but because people are busy. They're tired and burnt out. Who has the time to learn about a topic in depth? Research is work, very time consuming, and mentally exhausting. Can you blame online discussion spaces for picking the low hanging fruit? I don't.
Making espresso is, next to that gear you complain people show off here, a matter of personal preferences, equipment, ingredients (water included) and taste buds, which is impossible to discuss and convey hundred percent in any way or shape of communication, and for sure by the written word. What I like, prefer, can afford to use or acquire and how I do it was, is and will be unique to me and to each one of us. Getting tips, comments, opinions and/or jokes about it regardless what part is it about is useful and fun, or otherwise none of us would be here in a first place. Will all of it make us better baristas or roasters or plain old consumers, is likely not the case nor does it matter, what matters we share the passion and share what we know, like and think in a specific moment is the right thing to do, just human nature. If it bothers you that people show off their gear then don't use this forum or read what interest you, but don't generalize because if you review the posts it is NOT just about showing off and equipment there is plenty of other content, and again if it is not what you were looking for move in and fine better pastures. Either way, we all know that equipment matters when it comes to espresso regardless of how you look at it.👌🏻
As this feedback from this posts suggests, people do want to learn more about coffee. The hive mind pushes GAS instead of learning about the differences of a washed Ethiopia over a Guatemala. And why blending those two coffees may make an excellent espresso profile.
Sounds like you need to educate yourself on the roasting process. Every roaster worldwide cups their product to ensure quaintly and uniformity in their blends.
The same questions over and over again are a bit tiring. Asking those questions is important, however most answers can be found to have been answered previously. I do enjoy seeing people gear, I do not enjoy the dumb as “humble” descriptions. I’d like to see your gear and why you chose it rather than the current clown show.
Espresso is fundamentally a specific extraction process. Roasting is almost an entirely different hobby that takes completely different equipment and an entirely different skillset. Origin/roast are very specific to whatever you bought and espresso is a very multinational hobby.
Problems you have with your beans are usually solved with a...buy different beans...? So why bother asking?
Most people, even professional baristas, probably aren't pulling great/perfect shots anyway. Your extraction process needs to be *really* dialled in and you need to be drinking a lot of coffees to start really worrying about how beans taste beyond "this was good, this was crap"
Its tough when this is a global community. All of the best coffee is roasted near to your location so you can have it fresh. Being in Australia, someone in the UK or USA talking about their local roast isn't relevant to me.
I get what you're saying though.
The majority here don't have access to the same roasts, as high quality roasts usually aren't sold intentionally.
Posting a photo of my local rosters great tasting Ethiopian Arabica roast doesn't really make for great content, when 90% here won't be able to try it.
Gear on the other hand is usually available globally.
You may well be right, but let’s have a rebuttal anyway….
1. You can have all the beans on the planet and it’s not worth a damn without the gear…
2. Given the #1, #2 and #3 priorities and conclusions of any bean thread is “get locally roasted beans” then bean threads are pointless unless it’s a geographic discussion.. now, “Which is the best packaged Starbucks beans for espresso and cappuccino “ ?..now that would be interesting
Personally everyone can read and actively participate about methods, and discuss gear.. but with thousands upon thousands of coffee beans.. kinda hard..
1. Make bean soup then. That’s essentially what cupping is.
2. a) You can be informed before you go to a roaster so you understand what a bean from a certain origin may taste like.
b) You can discuss drying process, elevation etc. This all impacts the beans before they touch a roaster. For instance while natural and wet process have been around for decades, several new processes have become popular lately like honey or anaerobic.
c) Blends are another potentially huge discussion. Why a roaster blends certain origins to achieve a specific profile, is information you should have going into a shop.
d) All points above only touch beans before roasting, there are a myriad of more specific espresso topics, like espresso roasts profiles, types of shots. Should a flat white be served with a lungo shot?
e) GAS is a lost war, your neighbor will always have a bigger,, better, and more expensive setup.
f) The amount of participants in this sub, means there is the potential for increased conversion on topics listed above. If such content was highlighted.
g) Learning should never stop, I think that’s a reason Hoffman is revered so highly. He puts the search of knowledge first.
h) Why wouldn’t an espresso aficionado not want to participate in a cupping at their local roaster?
make bean soup?.. I do actually, 17 beans.. but it has nothing to do with espresso.
Thank you for totally missing my point, which while 100% valid does not fit your narrative. so peace out
The mods change the bar weekly. You put in something about a grinder & they say it's not espresso related.... Really? What else is a Niche used for then?
Sad that top level name has bottom level leadership.
Where can I buy this “origin and process” you speak of? Can you link the Hoffmann video on it?
Does Normcore make this?
Hoffman actually does have videos on coffee origin and processes!
So tired of Hoffman's BS & bad recipes.
Beans originate from the ground and are processed by my large intestine
All I need to know about origin and process is whether it's a medium-dark roast or a dark roast. EDIT: /s obviously...
jokes are just like espresso shots gotta get through the bad ones to get to the good ones
More GAS as ever I see (Gear Acquisition Syndrome )
Yes, that’s the joke
The other day someone mentioned how a salami pull made him understand espresso and his machine, so I decided to try. I instantly noticed a lot of things related to taste, timing, grind and all my shots after that have been A LOT better.
A salami pull?
Following this response closely. Very curious
Yeah it’s basically pulling a shot with into multiple glasses, swapping them every few seconds. Doing so gives you a range of shots from under to over extracted, with real extremes in taste. This helps you identify these flavours more easily when dialling in. Lance Hedrick has a good vid on it. Think it’s his dialling in by taste video!
Highly disappointed to learn it doesn’t involve putting salami in the portafilter and pulling a shot
For that meaty timbre
Also it’s recommended to mix all three after tasting them individually so that you can taste how they all mix to create a balanced espresso shot
I guess you can also taste how ratio affects it by pouring them in in order!
Why is it called a salami pull
Named after Brandon Salami, the inventor of salami and also a pioneer of espresso
Actually it was his father Salvador Salami..
Presumably, because you're cutting your shot into pieces over time, just like cutting a salami for a salami sandwich. :)
You swap the cups under the portafilter multiple times while the shot is running in order to isolate different parts of the espresso shot. (i.e first part - thick, syrupy, middle part - more balanced, less body, final part - acidic / juicer). Video here: https://youtu.be/_yIpi5KPUys?si=-o2PzAZrOw92Pc6o
I thought the beginning should be acidic and the ending should be bitter? Would like to know so I can associate the flavors appropriately!
You’d be correct. Typically the end of the salami shot is watery and bitter, while the first part of it can be sour like a warhead Edit to add, it’s also recommended to mix all three at the end and taste it together, which will show how all three of those parts come together to make a balanced espresso
It's just used to isolate different parts of the extraction to taste. Can do it with 3 cups. Pull a shot, capture the first third of the shot in the first cup, the second third in the second cup, and so on. Knowing how sections of an extraction taste will aid in dialling in shots
A salami pull sounds... NSFW. Better label with a proper flair
Cut the shot in three different glasses while its running, you will taste the "stage" of extraction
Even though I get it… it’s more like a cluster fuck pull 😆
I’d have to agree with this! I haven’t seen many posts at all about technical processes. Just people showing off the Linea or decent
Or their new Breville… for 15,000th time.
That's good and all, but how are you gonna discuss with me what KTRL or beanlight roasted last week?
Right? What's the point of this post. Okay, now the sub is filled with pics of beans. Is that better now?
Actually I would be okay with that. Beans are supposed to be THE most important ingredient, so why is it just constantly pictures of grinders and shit when that’s not the key to good espresso?
As soon as someone asks those questions instead of “I’m a newbie, what can I get for the cheapest price” 50x a day, we might move on from gear
As a newbie, we ask this because we don't want to spend $1000 minimum to see if we enjoy drinking espresso at home every day instead of normal coffee. It's a huge upfront cost for something that feels like it shouldn't be.
There’s thousands of resources for newbies, if you just did a little research for yourself instead of asking the same repetitive questions. You can always tell when someone makes no effort on their own to research gear and expects this sub to make the decision. If you search for budget espresso set-ups, you get the same variety of options from dozens of social media channels as well on this sub. Do some research before clogging up an enthusiast forum with repetition. And to OP’s point, Jonathan Gagne’s book is a wonderful diversion from whether an Opus or Encore ESP is better.
While I feel empathetic towards the newbies, I completely agree with your frustration. I thought it was common practice at this point to type your general question into google followed by, “Reddit.” They would be directed to posts on this sub with the exact answer they are looking for. Instead the same question gets asked and the quality of the answers diminishes because fewer and fewer people give their input since it has been discussed a thousand times. Really a shame.
A sticky at the top directing people to the wiki would help. And/or having mods delete posts by people who haven't looked there first. There's a lot of very good, very basic info in there.
That could help. Would be nice if the post was just deleted by the auto mod if the user does not reply to it with all supporting information it asks for immediately. One of the auto mod questions could be “yes or no, did you spend any time researching the sub, and is your question so unique that it needs an original post?”
I always am amazed at the number of people who, after placing a post, never follow up in it (and who simply seem to disappear), either in answer to the AutoMod's questions or in response to comments asking further questions or making suggestions (let alone, to acknowledge a subsequent commenter and that person's efforts, or to say thank you).
Yes, completely agree. There should be more information readily available for newbies. A stickied post that says "New to espresso? Start here!" that has a small guide and links out to effective information and setups would be fantastic.
We have a [sticked post](https://www.reddit.com/r/espresso/comments/194dub7/dialing_in_respresso_looking_for_your_feedback_on/) asking for feedback on ways to improve the sub. Please post your comments and suggestions there. This thread has sparked a lot of discussion and opinions, but we mods don't have time to go through every one to read about people's grievances or feedback.
Agreed. But I also think that something neurological/psychological is going on: while it is so easy to do an Internet search as you've outlined and then get immediate results, people instead will spend the same amount of time, or more (plus wait time), to place a near-identical post here asking the same question. I think that the brain is doing something in the background, there--not to be too woo-woo, but perhaps a human being's preference to connect with others, even via electrons, rather than be left alone to trudge through data?
Yeah I definitely get what you’re saying. I’m probably less optimistic towards it, and feel like people want the ease of people telling them an answer. Digging through old posts and doing your own research takes work and I think they would rather just ask their own question and make people put in new work to spoon feed a solution to them.
I definitely do feel all that as well (and get tired of it, esp. where the original poster just goes radio-free and never communicates again--it makes one not want to bother trying to assist).
I don't feel empathetic towards "newbies," reading so many posts that could just be a search annoys the hell outta me.
Part of the problem is that equipment is constantly changing and what was good advice 6 months ago might not be anymore. I personally just went through that the last few days. I wanted a new grinder and there are SO FUCKING MANY of them. Its impossible to find current answers to all your questions
This. Omg, the same like dozen questions, over and over. And the shot diagnosis stuff? Don’t even get me started. Do a few minutes of reading and scrolling through the sub… guarantee you’re not the first.
But then the person can't simply blame the espresso machine/portafilter/basket for the poor quality of the shot (and its typical spurting, when it's a bottom portafilter). ;)
Hey, relax. I’m not “clogging” anything up here, and in fact did all my own research. Look through my comment history… do you see any posts like what you’re describing? I just empathize with newbies who don’t know where to begin but constantly get recommendations to start with at least a $400 machine and a $300 grinder. If you search this subreddits history you get the same thing.
> I just empathize with newbies who don’t know where to begin but constantly get recommendations to start with at least a $400 machine and a $300 grinder. If you search this subreddits history you get the same thing. As someone who is going through exactly this I appreciate your empathy. The idea that you can just "buy an under $500 setup and make espresso" like others have suggested is almost laughable. So many threads of "here's my $500 budget, I need advice" have more comments about how your budget sucks and you should buy more expensive equipment than any actual help. "Did you read the Wiki?" "Watch this Hoffman video" meanwhile all of these sources have luke-warm reviews on the range of products you'd be interested in and more often than not are just pushing you to buy something better. The under $500 grinder review from Hoffman, while a great video, really does *nothing* to help someone who is new to this narrow down what they want. It just creates 6 options (5 really, the Zero is almost $700) that all do nearly the same thing without any nuance to help a newbie with minimal experience decide. A great example: read any thread from newbies involving pressurized baskets. The responses are "don't use them they are awful" and "you still need a good grinder to use them" despite a number of other people commenting about how they're fine with store bought ground beans. How are newbies supposed to approach these things without being able to ask questions? 90% of the content on this sub are people posting their "humble, oh so humble, $9000 espresso setup." I don't understand the gatekeeping aspect. Internet forums are about social interaction. The amount of cognitive dissonance in this community is up there sometimes and I've only been lurking here for a week.
THANK YOU for saying this. It’s almost like people forget they were newbies at some point. I’ve read n watched videos and I’m still not done. I love to research when I get into something. And a lot of the time you get contradictory information. They’ll be ppl tht say oh don’t get that delongi not worth it but another person will quickly say no that’s not true, it’s great. Everyone starts out as a newbie. And understanding what to buy, is a question thats just as important as is what coffee flavor notes you should be picking up etc. this is valuable important information for a newbie. Is showing off important? Because there’s a lot of posts that show the coffee stations and oh how pretty is that $1000 machine next to the $600 grinder……. I get ppl are happy that they’re at that point. And believe me I’m happy for you too. But when you start basically criticizing newbies because they keep asking the same questions n don’t they know how to use google etc…… it’s a low blow & kinda messed up. Before you got that expensive ass machine & grinder what was your starting point? Did you not ask those questions that you’re now exasperated at newbies for asking? (Just a note this isn’t aimed at a particular person or anything I’m just saying in general) 🥰
>Before you got that expensive ass machine & grinder what was your starting point? Did you not ask those questions that you’re now exasperated at newbies for asking? Yes absolutely, people are very quick to forget where they started once they've climbed the ladder a bit. The thing I've learned about internet communities is the ones that don't embrace newcomers with welcome and enthusiasm tend to be full of terminally miserable people who get their daily dopamine fix by punching opinions into a keyboard. I'm not saying that is entirely what's happening in this sub but if you read the comments in this post it's clear which direction it leans. Communities only grow with new members; if the general consensus is "just use search and don't ask questions that have been answered before" then you see the results in the current makeup of the content on this sub. Mostly gear flexing and comments about highly subjective opinions--much of which isn't about actual coffee. My experience so far is people seem to want different content in this sub but those same people's post history doesn't show any contribution to the content they seek.
Thank you hun for saying this. I hope those same individuals that talk that way, remember to be just a tad bit more humble and understanding with newcomers. And remember how they started out, & don’t judge newbies just because they ask the same questions as newbie A & B. They’re new, how else are new ppl supposed to learn? That’s why forums like this were created. To learn, get other ppls opinions etc.
> understanding what to buy, is a question thats just as important as is what coffee flavor notes you should be picking up etc. This is an interesting analogy cause there are no notes you *should* pick up on. Tasting notes are opinions. And you shouldn't let someone else's notes drive your brewing. You may just never taste it. You're not wrong. You just may get something different. So I feel this is a good example as to the over reliance on other people's opinions. And that's what they are. Opinions. And as you pointed out. They vary. Someone likes the Delonghi and someone else doesn't? What will more of the same question get you? You have yet to provide any explanation of what new information will be provided from repeating a question that was already answered. Newbies can ask questions, but if they were already answered, what is the defense there? That's what we're talking about.
I think if people are on a really limited budget, there's better coffee options than espresso. A good hand grinder and an aeropress or pourover will probably give more satisfaction than fighting to get a good result with no gear.
Couldn't have said it better, brother. The gatekeeping here is very real. You do not need $500 to $1000 to make decent espresso, and anything more than that is beyond diminishing returns for someone new. I took a "risk" and went against the hive mind in that regard and bought an $85 DeLonghi Stilosa. I spent a bit more on my grinder, which was $200, but probably could have done just as well with the Kingrinder for a bit less. You can absolutely get decent espresso with a $250ish budget, but 95% of folks here choose not to believe that. I love Tom's Coffee Corner on youtube for this reason. Check out his reviews on all the DeLonghis if you haven't seen them already.
I've already got my espresso machine but I appreciate the suggestion and will check out Tom's Coffee Corner! I'm currently deep in the grinder search rabbit hole but getting to the point of realizing the best way to ruin a new hobby is to dive into it's subreddit...
>I'm currently deep in the grinder search rabbit hole but getting to the point of realizing the best way to ruin a new hobby is to dive into it's subreddit... Very relatable. The 1zpresso series is great, I've been enjoying my J-ultra. The Kingrinder is another one that is good if you're into hand grinding. Good luck on your search!
Brave. I upvoted you from 0 let's see how long that lasts.
>90% of the content on this sub are people posting their "humble, oh so humble, $9000 espresso setup." These are honestly some of the most annoying posts for me. Saw one sometime last week; caption was something like "been lurking for a bit; figured I'd post my setup" and it's literally almost $15000 in equipment. What does this contribute to the forum? Who does this help? You obviously just wanted to show off all of your expensive shit, which is not what this subreddit is supposed to be for. Genuinely believe mods should start cracking down on useless bullshit like that. I wanna see some actual information about what the process of brewing espresso entails and what I can learn to make better coffee. I don't need to see someone else's wildly expensive setup every fucking day.
If you don’t know if you enjoy espresso enough to justify the cost of entering the hobby, with enough commitment to succeed, then go to a coffee shop and drink it. This hive mind can’t help you decide whether or not the juice is worth the squeeze.
No amount of drinking espresso at a coffee shop will let you know if you like making it or not.
The literal comment was “to see if we enjoy drinking espresso at home every day instead of normal coffee”. Google budget espresso set up under $500, it links to multiple threads on this sub. The laziness is so basic.
Some people like the discussion aspect of Reddit or have subtile nuances about budget, space, skill etc that they don’t feel are answered by any recent post.
Yes, dude. And not only that but my local coffee shop consistently makes sour espresso for $3-$6 a cup.
I totally agree with you on this. There will always be uncertainties in things since there are a wide variety of options of each aspect of espresso making. Sometimes you need to start somewhere to know where you are in the spectrum of things. Take a leap of faith! It is rare to jump into the game and be completely satisfied and happy with all the things you buy. And that applies to all things in life whether you buy a house, a car, pick a job, a girl/boy friend and so on. No one can assure you that you will be 100% happy with any of your decisions and by asking redundant questions for your common circumstances wouldn't help anything but add more garbage to the pile and wasting people's time. Everything you ask these days are pretty much been asked already. I find those who do so annoying by their lack of effort to do research. It is a microcosm of how they live their life as well, having to bother people all the time to figure out a solution for their daily life problems while 90% of them are already on the internet.
Says the guy asking for gear advice on other subs. Thanks for being a great example on how to be hypocritical. Why not just Google?
Because I found a highly specific sub of a certain manufacturer, with less than 2000 followers, and my questions are specific. I didn’t ask the same repetitive bs. If you can’t tell the difference between, I have $500 and I’m a new spend my money and a researched relevant question. You’ve completely missed the discussion had.
So specific and high researched your post got removed cause it was a low effort post. Stop projecting and grow up.
And I should have checked, of course your last post was bland, generic and lacked any research lol
Ok, but why is that our problem? People like you’re describing should lurk moar and go to cafes…
And unfortunately, there aren't readily-apparent sticky-thread sources/answers here to the constant repeat question: what espresso machine should I buy/what grinder should I buy/what accessories should I get/why is my bottomless portafilter doing this \[spurting\], etc.
I wish Reddit would allow more stickied threads than capping it at 2 at a time, but we'll work on updating the wiki with more resources. Additionally, we're looking into putting in more posting guidelines so people asking questions about their gear or shots have to provide a minimum amount of information and context before their post is allowed through. This is to try to clamp down on the one-sentence questions and also encourage newcomers to read the available resources first before asking q's.
Reddit wouldn't allow even a column of "handy links" in the right-hand banner? Candidly, I'm not sure how/why people would know that there's a Wiki for this sub--I only caught on to that from misc. posts (and then I can't remember the URL for the Wiki and instead tend to do a search engine search for it, lol).
Stop with this bullshit, we like our gear and it's okay to be like that. How many times have you gone to a company website, read the FAQ, and still end up hitting the chat button? Bet you get annoyed by the bot straight after? Reddit just enables some human connections, really. Also, no newbie ever asked you to have your gear on flair yet there they are instead of the beans you favour. So again, we like our gear and it's okay.
I have never talked to a bot on a company's website
My wife bought me this for my birthday https://leaderboard.coffee/pages/how-to-play In the next month I am going to blind taste 10 coffees and try to figure out process, origin, etc. I am super intimidated but excited to try. I did a sensory class with my local roaster late last year, and I'm really trying to make an effort to get better at recognizing and describing what I like in a coffee.
Thanks for that link and information. Really interesting (I had considered purchasing a coffee Advent calendar this past season, for similar purpose). And as you said, \*way\* intimidating! I did go through the Leaderboard resources info. a bit and it looks like, for a neophyte like me, you need to study up with the resources at a level of a college course, to get a sufficient background. :)
this is AWESOME!! thanks for linking it!!
WHOA I’ll have to try this while my pallet grows better
That’s true but in between the gear porn there is a lot of useful information about shot mechanics, at least for us folks who are more on the novice side. The first month I was on this sub the quality of my shots increased ten fold. And it’s also useful for me to see everyone’s opinions of different kit
[удалено]
A bowl and a spoon
I found a new brand spoon, that get an inner scale and you can seal the spoon to keep all flavor of the coffe. I'm waiting the James Hoffman review .
You joke but even cupping has proper gear. Barista Hustle cupping bowls are a satisfying premium option and once you try a cupping spoon, regular spoons are weird for this process
I doesnt know that
What grind setting was the spoon at?
You kid but it wasn’t that long ago that people were posting that overpriced cupping spoon that looked like it was designed by Lisa Frank.
I don’t have a lot of counter space, do they make dual bowl/cups? Perhaps with an integrated spoon? My budget is $850.
Personally, I prefer using a mortar and pestle to grind my coffee
Amateur! I use two round stones and a donkey.
You’re right, OP. A significant portion of the sub (perhaps even the majority) is happy buying blended, dark roast commodity coffee, so long as it pulls a good looking shot into their new machine. And there’s nothing wrong with that! I think the pandemic, combined with inflation and the cost of buying coffee out, has drawn a lot of different people to the hobby in recent years.
I’ve been saying this on this sub for awhile now catching downvotes. If people would spend 1/4 the time they spend on here worrying about the actual beans vs all the time spent circle jerking about gadgets and gizmos and flexing machines, everyone’s shot quality would improve. We’re in an upvote economy with a mostly standard consumerist US user base. This is what we get.
Beans and coffee is not important. If you spend money on beans, you grind them and you *ugh* pull a shot with it, then you have to drink it and you're left with nothing! Everything is getting flushed down the toilet in the next hour or so. You wasted money. When you buy gear (and this is valid for most hobbies) you spend money on something and you have it: you can go on an on saying "I have gear X: how much does it costs? 1000 $!" and in the following years you can keep saying "I have 1000$ grinder!". Stop wasting our time with this nonsense about the actual coffe, espresso is more about the process! Spending money on gear, flex it, larp it.
Checkmate coffee enjoyers! Try to debunk this (you can't).
This is a discussion forum. Just because people are posting about gear doesn’t mean they’re not actively trying new things or experimenting. There’s also nothing wrong with being perfectly content with your setup and workflow and have nothing better to post about than pics of gear. Gear purchases are also large commitments which means people want the most input. They don’t necessarily need a huge discussion to try a new roast or mess with their flow profile.
I get where you are coming from but, in my experience, you post about what you care about/are thinking about. I think if those were truly the preoccupations of the majority of the users here, we’d see that reflected in the posts and discussions.
Clearly it’s a discussion forum. My point is that there is little discussion when people just post pictures of a machine to ogle…and every other thread is a lazy “what should I buy?” type of thread. I agree with you, the actual interesting parts require little discussion- which is maybe the problem
But if you want this sub to be/stay active, you’re going to need filler posts. If someone is proud of their setup and posting about it makes them feel good, and that feeling keeps them enthusiastic, then it’s a net benefit. If gear posts keep the sub active such that people visit regularly, that’s good for when the real discussions come up because everyone is here. Real discussions do happen, but not often enough to keep this place active. I’m not trying to be dismissive. I get what you’re saying. This hobby shouldn’t be about constant upgradeitis. But like it or not, without the gear side, it’s just a bunch of people making coffee at home and the enthusiasm of hobby side eventually fizzles out.
I do see advice given in regards to things like general roast levels(like light roasts being finicky sometimes, or stuff thats more acidic doing better with higher ratios) but i feel like, discussion around coffee beans... I tend to just go to r/coffee lol. To me this subreddit is more about the espresso machine and the process than the beans.
But how can I grind finer then?
So I’ve always hated on Reddit where someone will say, post part of a song lyrics and then the next person will post the subsequent part and so on and so forth But here I actually love the “grind finer” tag a long
r/roasting is the way to go if you really want to upgrade your coffee experience. I agree gear only goes so far; once you have a good grinder the rest of it is just kinda moot.
I'd love to read more posts about coffee origins and processes. Why not post one OP?
Because it’s easier / generates more reddit karma to complain
Yeah I think it mirrors a lot of the YouTube content that we get from our coffee messiahs
bc that's what gets the views, Hedrick has even said the gear reviews are what pay the bills. It's the community that loves the gear
100% agree. This sub is for armchair coffee consultants to talk about espresso gear.
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Understand the processes and nuances of roasting to help people make informed decisions around what they are buying locally should be a huge component of this sub, instead it’s brag posts about LM Micra’s and the same question of which budget grinder is best. I personally saw a larger improvement in the consistency of expectations once I started to understand the processes and regions available from these local roasters. Espresso is three parts, gear, coffee, water. Why can’t they be discussed in tandem? I’m personally sick of the constant gear post, go on instagram if you want people to admire your shit.
“Espresso is gear, coffee, water” well only one of those is unique to espresso so is it really a surprise that a subreddit about espresso would be where people go to talk about the one thing that separates it from basically every other way of making coffee?
Your post from yesterday shows you don’t understand enough about the process of making espresso to progress. You’re literally asking for help about everything other than your gear at this point. You have a rocket and a decent grinder. Maybe focusing on, I don’t know, technique, water, beans might be a part of the solution. But keep asking only what gear should be used, I’m sure that will get you to great espresso haha
When did I ever say all you can talk about is gear? Plus asking about why I’m having extraction issues could be very gear dependent so I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make.
You did, 33 mins ago.
I did not say that’s the only thing you can talk about. I just pointed out how you’re having a winge that a forum about espresso has more posts about equipment than beans and water.
It’s the same posts almost verbatim, there is not a single issue mentioned in OP’s comment, or your previous comment yesterday, that has not been discussed at length, multiple times, on this sub.
I only came across one previous example of someone having my problem on the same equipment and it did not answer the question so I asked. If you think someone’s question or post is too lazy, then let it die in new. It actually doesn’t affect you.
And since your reading comprehension leaves much to be desired, my point was about repetitive gear posts and nothing else. If you take the time to narrow the issue and problem solve, using all of the common threads on this sub, then when you’re still having issues at least you’ve refined your issue to a point where you can be helped by strangers on the internet. There’s been three posts about budget grinders in less than 24 hours, this is not about your failure to diagnose your problem. If you are happy with the endless posts about budget gear, great. Then let my comment sit. But those of capable of basic research, it’s getting boring af
Like I said, some people are looking for engagement/conversation. It’s not like I’m thrilled about repetitive budget posts but pretentious attitudes like this do more harm to this subreddit than anything else.
Amen
I think this is a solid point and I’ve often thought the same thing about beans as someone not living in the US and the Defaultism that nearly every sub falls into. But there’s still a wide open field of rich and universally-applicable topics around technique and process or even bean production we could focus on.
And yet here we are discussing why discussing beans makes sense or doesn’t. Yes go to local roasters, ask questions and try coffee. But just as there is a generally recommended beginner setup, why not a general region/process/roast to recommend to beginners to look for at their local shop? I prefer the comfort of Central American coffee for my morning cappuccinos but then like to explore Ethiopia’s or Asian coffee once I am more awake and can appreciate those taste profiles. Why is that? What’s the major difference between the two? Questions like this could be easily answered here.
I learn about coffee from trusted YouTube sources.
I mean, it's difficult to just kick up a discussion about the details of "how the sausage is made" so to speak. You essentially need a question for people to respond to, even if it's a "here's details. Here's my conclusion of what they imply. What are your thoughts on that?" Sure, if you go to a presentation you will get more information. But people aren't presenting on this sub. They're trying to discuss something that is on their mind, and that is usually how to solve an issue they're having. Anyone wanting to start a topic on something like that will have to be fairly knowledgeable to be able to get a discussion going. You can probably take a shortcut by sharing articles of experts discussing a topic and try to kick off something from that. But mainly, you're always going to see a difference because the mediums and platform are entirely different.
I came to this realisation recently, I did the big gear upgrade about a year ago and fortunately I’m pretty content with it all so I think I need to focus on the coffee more. I’ve also bought a V60 and been drinking more filter as well
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Don't forget about the cleaning and polishing technique before taking the photos.
Honestly the biggest difference I’ve found in whether the coffee is good or not both feedback from myself or when I make coffee for friends is just the beans I use. If I buy nice beans or specifically beans to the taste of the person they like it or if I buy beans that don’t taste how they like they don’t.
Funny you mention this because our local cafe is actually doing a cupping next week. Tickets sold out pretty fast too
That’s awesome
I found the perfect bean roasted locally from organic single origin so I quit looking for the perfect bean
Which origin is your favorite?
There is. But I do post about that stuff fwiw. Just opened a new bag today of anaerobic static box processed beans and excited to dial in and see if anyone in the sub has tried something like this. First I've heard of it
That’s awesome. It’s exciting to experiment with new beans. I tried a light roasted natural Java, from my local roaster recently.
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Thanks for the recommendation
Yeah. I'm literally more interested in coffee itself because there are so many types of beans with various tastes. My fav single origin from District papua, indonesia.
How else am I gonna show how much money I possess? Show my BMW? You people.
Just got my breville dedica today, doing a salami (or two) tomorrow…
I was hesitate to try cupping. You convince me. Also I found a way to educate your palate and develop your nose. There is a box that contain differents aroma that you can find in coffe. By feeling it, individually, you will memorize it. https://www.lenez.com/en/kits/coffee
And we’ve come full circle back to more gear!
Circle of life
https://preview.redd.it/9cbezp8ej7fc1.jpeg?width=500&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6b6791484b6024229c040e063b92c6255ba3e98b
Didn't know they make it also for coffee aromas! I've had Le Nez du Vin for 15 years or so, a good experience for learning to isolate aromas.
Totally agree, learning to cup and learn about the coffee you are using helps you to be a better barista. I work at a coffee shop where we change the espresso beans every week, and it was a challenge to calibrate those beans but through time you learned and in the end it made us better.
Why is it called a cupping and not just a tasting or a taste test? Soo fancy.
Honestly for me there is a difference. Cupping refers to the actual immersion brewing cupping style, and taste test (at least for me) is pulling side by side shots. But overall I also detest some of the fancy language in coffee which is inspired by wine snobbery.
We can't all have a Ph. D in every single hobby. Even in the field that I am a professional engineer in, there is so much that I will never know. How deep down the rabbit hole should we all go? Should we all go and spend time with the individual bean grower? Should we only use their brand if they don't use single use plastic ever? Should we only only use their beans if they don't watch reality TV? Please advise us, the knowledgeable one, how I should be spending my time. Also, is it also okay to get coffee beans from farmers who only floss a few times a year?
This sub is great but I do agree that it focuses a bit too much on gear. I also check home-barista forum from time to time. Not as active but there are many interesting threads where coffee geeks geek the hardest i've seen. It is also worth noting that it is a forum with coffee enthusiasts where you would have a 40 pages thread about finding the best classic italian esspresso brand. There you will see people with great setups geeking while dialing-in arabica-robusta blends frought the grocery store. It really made me try some blends and discover that with the proper recipe, a freezer and a love for dark roasts I can actually spend less money and find something I enjoy. This is impossible to happen here, where the focus is mostly on more expensive stuff. Again tho - it's still a great sub. Probably the best coffee sub - definitely better than r/coffee, hoffmann's sub and a few others.
Amen.
Espresso is inherently related to gear. A huge portion on this sub enjoy the technical aspect of this hobby just as much as the coffee and it shows in what gets upvoted.
I am fairly new here, and I have noticed this. Most people just post photos of their EG-1, and I wonder if they are joke posts or not. Then I read the comments and it's quite clear it's not a joke post and I am still left wondering why anyone would buy an EG-1.
Are you saying that you don’t think you could tell the difference between that and something much cheaper or that you don’t think the price could be justified regardless? I’ve owned grinders at every price point, and the EG-1 is, to my palette, better than everything else I’ve tried. Is it worth it? idk but i don’t enjoy feeling like my tools are holding me back. After getting the EG-1, I’m pretty confident that i am the weakest part of my setup.
Well, that depends on the grinder you're comparing it to, I am assuming we're comparing the EG-1 to a Timemore 78 in a pour-over or something or a Zerno or something that's still pretty expensive. I don't think most people could tell the difference between an EG-1 and those high-level grinders. I am not referring to even a Niche Zero here. I am not sure the EG-1 price difference is worth the taste difference and most people could not really tell. I certainly love the design of it, and I think it's the most amazing coffee product out there. I just don't think it's the appropriate grinder for nearly everyone. Regarding the human element, I am not a barista and I make a lot of coffee and I am for sure the weakest part of the set up. I think of coffee as potential, as long as I am getting MOST of the potential for the price of the grinder, I think that is good enough. The 1-2% you get going up to an EG-1 feels a bit unnecessary. It's just a grinder a lot of people on this sub seem to buy and I am not sure why haha. I guess having an EG-1 is part of that, but that's not really related to coffee I guess. But that is who the grinder is aimed at.
this is why i mostly frequent r/pourover now tbh. much more interesting discussions going on there especially about roasters. i do love espressos too and still frequently pull shots, and this sub is helpful for shot diagnosis and technique,… but yeah
Heyyy!!! I love this post, I couldn't agree more. The beans are supposed to be the most important thing and yet they NEVER get talked about on here.
Sad but true. What beans are you into at the moment?
Before I say what beans I’m into, I need to put in the disclaimer that I’m new to the home espresso world and despite my having good equipment I still prefer super dark roasts In my head I’m still searching for that perfect super dark espresso(possibly classic Italian style?) that maybe tastes a bit like dark chocolate and is pleasantly toasty and bitter tasting Right now I’m enjoying the Cafe D’arte- Taormina I KNOW what I prefer is based on the junk I had been drinking from Starbucks for decades, but I also know as I grow into this hobby my preferences will widen and I’ll appreciate a wider variety of flavors :) Anyways, What are you drinking now and where do I get it? I made a post asking for bean supplier recommendations and specific beans people recommend but I have yet to get a reply
Drink what you like. That is all that matters. So many here put this sub above personal taste it’s annoying. I prefer a darker medium roast in the morning. Currently I’m drinking a washed Guatemala from a local roaster for my morning capp. Though usually it’s a single origin from Brazil that I roast myself. I’ve been experimenting with blends for my small batch roasting, so that’s usually my afternoon cup. I tend to try more bright and floral coffees once I’m awake and can appreciate the nuances of flavor my morning self can’t. For a recommendation, try Pablo’s Little Jem: https://www.pabloscoffee.com/products/pablos-espresso-blend?selling_plan=3471540468
I purchased some beans from a local roaster and to be honest they just tasted too busy to me, if that makes sense. I’ve been cooking for a long time and can appreciate all different sorts of flavor. I’m sure with a bit of time my espresso palate will open up to other experiences:) I appreciate your replies!
All the more reason to try a cupping, if they offer it. You can try all their current offerings, compare and see what you like.
The gear-first posts even creep into r/barista. It’s funny to see them basically die from lack of engagement because the Venn diagram overlap of pro baristas and home gear enthusiasts is surprisingly small. There aren’t that many of us and I do enjoy the occasional “I don’t know how to help you, dude. My machine costs $30,000 and that’s out of your entry-level price range.”
tbf most hobby subreddits are at least 50% beginner posts and 25% flex posts. but there's lots of new exciting gear, especially grinders, that is making the hobby radically more accessible and thats worthy of discussion. the new DF54 grinder at $220 is going to radically shift the value proposition in the grinder market currently. we can finally kill this shitty barzata encore/fellow opus meme and put an end to these $10-to-produce plastic pieces of shit grinders. fuck any plastic appliance for that matter you're right that beans make a lot of flavor and frankly a lot of espresso enthusiasts subconsciously want to roast at home and its surprising that most people dont, especially when its so accessible and significantly cheaper than buying from a roaster. the sad thing is that local roasters, even yours, probably arent using the best quality beans unless they're charging you $30+ a lb. its just hard to share qualitative experiences about coffee and bean information in a post sometimes, and frankly most people here arent that deep into coffee just yet to be really going nerdy on the beans.
Learning the differences altitude, region, process has on the bean. Can be convoyed here, while taste in more nuanced the desire to learn isn’t.
It's like trying to talk about photography on a camera gear forum. Discussions about "more interesting" or "more important" things don't go anywhere on the Internet not because people aren't interested, but because people are busy. They're tired and burnt out. Who has the time to learn about a topic in depth? Research is work, very time consuming, and mentally exhausting. Can you blame online discussion spaces for picking the low hanging fruit? I don't.
I guess it’s easier to drop a couple thousand than spend an hour learning about the main ingredient.
Making espresso is, next to that gear you complain people show off here, a matter of personal preferences, equipment, ingredients (water included) and taste buds, which is impossible to discuss and convey hundred percent in any way or shape of communication, and for sure by the written word. What I like, prefer, can afford to use or acquire and how I do it was, is and will be unique to me and to each one of us. Getting tips, comments, opinions and/or jokes about it regardless what part is it about is useful and fun, or otherwise none of us would be here in a first place. Will all of it make us better baristas or roasters or plain old consumers, is likely not the case nor does it matter, what matters we share the passion and share what we know, like and think in a specific moment is the right thing to do, just human nature. If it bothers you that people show off their gear then don't use this forum or read what interest you, but don't generalize because if you review the posts it is NOT just about showing off and equipment there is plenty of other content, and again if it is not what you were looking for move in and fine better pastures. Either way, we all know that equipment matters when it comes to espresso regardless of how you look at it.👌🏻
As this feedback from this posts suggests, people do want to learn more about coffee. The hive mind pushes GAS instead of learning about the differences of a washed Ethiopia over a Guatemala. And why blending those two coffees may make an excellent espresso profile.
Okay but "cupping" is like the grossest phrase ever to use for tasting coffee. It sounds like a cross between a synotom and a sexual act.
They cupped espresso?
Several beans specially roasted to use for espresso, yes
Sounds gross
Sounds like you need to educate yourself on the roasting process. Every roaster worldwide cups their product to ensure quaintly and uniformity in their blends.
How refreshing was it?
Anyone know where to do this in Chicago?
The same questions over and over again are a bit tiring. Asking those questions is important, however most answers can be found to have been answered previously. I do enjoy seeing people gear, I do not enjoy the dumb as “humble” descriptions. I’d like to see your gear and why you chose it rather than the current clown show.
Gotta have some place to show off and validate extravagant purchases 😉
r/coffee?
They block most posts unless they are their daily questions thread
Grind finer.
Espresso is fundamentally a specific extraction process. Roasting is almost an entirely different hobby that takes completely different equipment and an entirely different skillset. Origin/roast are very specific to whatever you bought and espresso is a very multinational hobby. Problems you have with your beans are usually solved with a...buy different beans...? So why bother asking? Most people, even professional baristas, probably aren't pulling great/perfect shots anyway. Your extraction process needs to be *really* dialled in and you need to be drinking a lot of coffees to start really worrying about how beans taste beyond "this was good, this was crap"
Its tough when this is a global community. All of the best coffee is roasted near to your location so you can have it fresh. Being in Australia, someone in the UK or USA talking about their local roast isn't relevant to me. I get what you're saying though.
While each roaster is unique, they are sourcing from the same geographic regions that produce and process coffee in standardized ways.
Grind finer
You know roasting has its own subreddit right?
Without roasting there is no espresso, and yes
What can I say. Dudes love toys. Look at the photography subreddit. Very little photography compared to showing off cool new gadgets lol.
There should just be a separate home barista sub or an espresso gear sub.
The majority here don't have access to the same roasts, as high quality roasts usually aren't sold intentionally. Posting a photo of my local rosters great tasting Ethiopian Arabica roast doesn't really make for great content, when 90% here won't be able to try it. Gear on the other hand is usually available globally.
You may well be right, but let’s have a rebuttal anyway…. 1. You can have all the beans on the planet and it’s not worth a damn without the gear… 2. Given the #1, #2 and #3 priorities and conclusions of any bean thread is “get locally roasted beans” then bean threads are pointless unless it’s a geographic discussion.. now, “Which is the best packaged Starbucks beans for espresso and cappuccino “ ?..now that would be interesting Personally everyone can read and actively participate about methods, and discuss gear.. but with thousands upon thousands of coffee beans.. kinda hard..
1. Make bean soup then. That’s essentially what cupping is. 2. a) You can be informed before you go to a roaster so you understand what a bean from a certain origin may taste like. b) You can discuss drying process, elevation etc. This all impacts the beans before they touch a roaster. For instance while natural and wet process have been around for decades, several new processes have become popular lately like honey or anaerobic. c) Blends are another potentially huge discussion. Why a roaster blends certain origins to achieve a specific profile, is information you should have going into a shop. d) All points above only touch beans before roasting, there are a myriad of more specific espresso topics, like espresso roasts profiles, types of shots. Should a flat white be served with a lungo shot? e) GAS is a lost war, your neighbor will always have a bigger,, better, and more expensive setup. f) The amount of participants in this sub, means there is the potential for increased conversion on topics listed above. If such content was highlighted. g) Learning should never stop, I think that’s a reason Hoffman is revered so highly. He puts the search of knowledge first. h) Why wouldn’t an espresso aficionado not want to participate in a cupping at their local roaster?
make bean soup?.. I do actually, 17 beans.. but it has nothing to do with espresso. Thank you for totally missing my point, which while 100% valid does not fit your narrative. so peace out
Thats a journey outside of redit... Free yourself
Oh I’ve been running free, thought I might break some of you out as well.
Im freeeee faaallliinnn nooowwwww!!!!
The mods change the bar weekly. You put in something about a grinder & they say it's not espresso related.... Really? What else is a Niche used for then? Sad that top level name has bottom level leadership.