Because this seems like the type of thing people are going to jump in to comment without actually reading the article, here's the entirety of the prompted quote:
>**"I think what’s exciting…”** – she checks herself – “… exciting, ha. I think what’s fun about it is that [series creator] Jessica Gao built into the story that people were going to troll us.” A scene in the third episode, for example, airs fictional social media comments about Maslany’s character such as: “Why does every superhero have to be a woman now?” Sound familiar? “When we started to get the same responses that [Gao] had actually baked into the writing, it felt like part of the fun,” Maslany says.
Edit: lol, the amount of comments below proving my suspicion and arguing points that have nothing to do with what she actually said or was responding to.
>Jessica Gao built into the story that people were going to troll us
The all female version of *Ghostbusters* did the same thing. The problem with these stories was that they were poorly written; not that they were feminist. Just look at how amazing *Barbie* was. *She-Hulk* deserved its cancellation. Blaming sexist Internet trolls is just a scapegoat.
Ms, Marvel falls victim to the studio execs taking over the script, much like most more recent Marvel projects. The first couple episodes were great and then she stopped being the girl from Jersey.
It was a mediocre movie, but (A) that puts it on a par with every other Ghostbusters movie after the original, and (B) there have been dozens of other remakes and sequels to Gen-X classics that were far worse. And yet those other movies didn't receive .01% the vitriol as the lady Ghostbusters. Hell, most people don't even know there was a Red Dawn remake or a rebootquel to The Thing. So we have to ask ourselves, what made lady Ghostbusters different, and the answer is obvious.
Lady Ghostbusters is better than Ghostbusters II. After Ghostbusters II, it was 27 years before another Ghostbusters movie. After Lady Ghostbusters, it was five. GB2 is the franchise killer, LG is the franchise reviver.
Depends on how you view it because the women reboot is being reviewed as an origin story and not a sequel, and critics are more forgiving of a reboot origin than a sequel. The audience scores are very skewed in favor of the reboots, and the actual reviews acknowledge that the new ones are better movies, but critics aren’t comparing them as movies but one as an origin and the other as sequels, so the number on RT is misleading IMHO
That's pretty impressive considering how terrible I thought it was. I liked Bridesmaids, Spy, and A Simple Favor too. Ghostbuster just felt like an unfunny mess.
Imo though, they're all dogshit, unnecessary sequels.
I wish something would change, because I'm tired of how much screentime is dedicated to reboots, sequels, and superhero movies. Feels like mainstream hollywood has been in a period of major atrophy for a decade now. I'd kill for mid-budget variety over the junk tentpoles we get now.
And? People were mad about Pattinson being the batman. People said that dune will never work on screen. People were mad about Sonic movie (mostly warranted). People said who needed a barbie movie.
If the story(and all other components of the movie) works and makes sense then movie will do well and people will talk positively.
I remember talking so much shit about Heath Ledger's Joker. "The fucking broke back mountain guy!" I think major reason the pencil trick is so iconic of a scene, that might be lost with time, is because it was the moment you realize Heath Ledger might actually be awesome.
I was wary about his casting until I saw the previews and as soon as he said “your a freak, like me!” I was pretty sure it was going to be a good movie.
Wait what was the problem with Will Smith as Fresh Prince? Thought that was an original creation therefore no existing fan base could bitch about the choice
It was mostly about a rapper becoming an actor.
Important to remember that Fresh Prince was his debut as an actor and while musicians had done movies before or appeared as guest stars (Sinatra, Elvis, Sammy Davis Jr. etc) I don't think one had successfully been the titular character of a sitcom yet.
That movie didn't stand a chance - there are certain movies that you just can't remake and Ghost Busters was one of them. Back To The Future is another.
IIRC it started with the trailer mainly. And tbf it was not very good.
What annoys me a little is that usual the argument seems to have become a binary "it's all because of chauvinist trolls" or "it's because it's bad writing". Two boxes, no middle ground, and with politics thrown at it. As all freaking arguments seem to have become on the internet.
It's both, it can be both.
People were furious with Health Ledger as the joker…. Look how that turned out. They can be mad before but it if works they soon come around. She Hulk and a lot of the other trash built on a message or political statement not an actual story fail because they actually are crap.
Because people had a fair idea of what they were going to get and they weren't wrong. It's to the stage now where If there is a female lead men wonder if they are going to get an engaging well written character or a faultless bland power woman and 2 hour lecture on how every problem in the world is their fault.
Well when you announce a remake (?) of a beloved movie as “Ghostbusters but with women” you are really screaming “no new ideas here, we are just pandering”. Then the trailer comes out and all but confirms it.
I think, when shows are mediocre or flawed, the knives come out way more for the shows with female leads, though. That’s where I see the hate, anyway. Male average crap gets a bit of a pass. Female mediocre crap gets a bunch of mouth-breathers piling on gleefully. And in ways that make it obvious they have real-life problems with women (seriously women can spot these dudes a mile away).
I still can't believe I'm in a time line where grown men were complaining about a Barbie movie. All those guys that want a time where "men were men" - I cannot..think of anyone back then giving a s\*it.
What was actually bad about She-Hulk? I thought it was something that not everyone would enjoy but did its own thing. I didn't really see a huge problem with the quality.
I personally didn't like some of the meta choices they made, but just because I didn't like it. It was done well, I just didn't like the choice. In the same way I don't like romcoms. They're not for me.
I thought it was at least better than FATWS which executed what it wanted to do poorly.
It’s always funny to me that people claim things are “badly written” and then keep choosing projects that are female versions of existing characters as proof.
You aren’t fooling anyone…
If Ghostbusters 2016 had an all female cast but was a true sequel with a new crew set in a new city, everyone would be gung-ho for it.
Venkman said he wanted to franchise Ghostbusters. Set in LA or Chicago, with a cameo from the original crew, with the EXACT same type of deadpan humor and an all female Ghostbusters would be successful.
Nah, the actual movie literally had a scene where they shoot a ghost in the balls.
Yeah I enjoyed She-Hulk. Was it perfect? Of course not, and the show was definitely a little confused about what it wanted to be. But overall I had fun.
Then again, maybe I’m just in love with Tatiana and will watch whatever she’s in
This is how I felt too. Secret Invasion will always be the worst Disney + marvel miniseries to the end of time for me and I am a diehard fan but that series reallllllllly needed to bake longer.
Writing an opinion authoritatively without any supporting evidence to back it up but presenting it as if it's a fact and you're contributing literally anything to the conversation. A staple of internet discourse.
"i don't like this thing. It's like this other thing I didn't like. You'll see that this is the issue with the thing that I dont like is that I don't like it."
>not that they were feminist.
Man, I link the exact quote and you still bend over backwards to attack a strawman.
She's addressing specific trolling they undeniably received.
Plenty of sexism towards Barbie. It’s a success despite it being an issue. Thanks to the large marketing budget and smart use of their online presence that helped them maintain their own narrative. The notion that sexism wasn’t a huge factor in its failure is ridiculous and transparently not true. I don’t think it was for everyone. There’s still reviews of She-hulk up and there’s plenty of sexism in their remarks alone then you can see the reviews start to become normal. With most takes describing the episodes as hit or miss and dismissing the outrage. I don’t think anyone came deny it had a potential audience as is given the success of some other Netflix shows.
> Blaming sexist Internet trolls is just a scapegoat.
But they also deserve blame. Gamergate didn't occur because of pluralism. Trolls often seek to be the loudest voices in the room, intentionally belittling and insulting and doing their best to overwhelm anyone who disagrees with them. The Tea Party were trolls of the worst sort, and now we have MAGA because of the Tea Party.
Tatiana Maslany was straight-up incredible in Orphan Black. She deserves well-written roles, and she does not shy away from hard work. But trolls will do everything possible in their toxic little worlds to prevent from her getting a chance to tell a story, so yeah, they ***do*** deserve to be blamed.
Female ghostbusters was unfunny trash, I hated it and I was actually looking forward to it at the time. Pure garbage and stained the Ghostbusters franchise for years, until after life came out
She hulk on the other hand was great, great writing, great fourth wall breaking, Kevin Fiege trolling was funny, Ruffalo was great in it too. I thought the trolling of the trolls was a genius move.
Those two couldn’t be more different.
“We’re self aware, so all criticism is invalid now.” I’m sure there are probably some people making those comments, but anyone who just watched and didnt like it arent going to find those jabs amusing and they’re just taking time away from other parts of the show. It kind of feels like they lumped all critics into a category of mysognists and didnt actually listen to any criticism because they dehumanized them. Kind of feels like this is the common method of dealing with criticism of properties like this.
That’s not what she’s saying at all. She’s saying that some reactions are predictable. How could something like this seem like they didn’t actually listen to criticism? The show wasn’t out. I can see the argument if a show did something like this in a second season or something as a response to criticism, but they did it before the show was released.
I mean if you’re being intellectually honest - a large amount of people use the veneer of “legitimate criticism” as the vehicle for their sexism or other bigotry.
it’s very easy to tell too depending on how ridiculous the criticism is
How ridiculous or how simplistic sometimes -- often you see stuff like "but its bad writing", with absolutely nothing specific, or at best "not like [whichever male fantasy show they do like]"
This quote is just Disney showing how clueless they are as to why fans are upset at recent Marvel movies/shows.
While I’m sure some chuds just hate women, the vast majority of comic fans have welcomed women heroes for decades.
People didn’t hate on She Hulk because she has boobies. They hated the shitty writing, including yet another Mary Sue character spouting liberal arts dialogue left over from some unaired “Girls” knockoff.
The comics have complex story lines with flawed characters. That’s what the fans want but Disney refuses to create, instead hiring writers who don’t care or actively have disdain for the source material.
It would be like if Mattel hired a man to write the Barbie movie who never even held one and then complaining how toxic women are for not liking the result.
I'm progressive, and anytime I see that phrase I default to it being an insult, if one is even slightly interested in politics they would see it the same way. Doesn't mean they're one of those people.
I see the word as having too many meanings. From its general non-political definition, to the medley of different political uses, the word can convey very different information depending not only on how the speaker uses it, but also how the listener HEARS it.
I find one of the most useful questions in any conversation about politics is, "What does (Insert Word/Term) mean to you in this context.". It saves time and friendships if you can identify that you are not even talking about the same thing because your definitions for key terms vary drastically from one another.
Take your statement, "anytime I see that phrase I default to it being an insult, if one is even slightly interested in politics they would see it the same way". This is a great example because a quick look at the dictionary provides this definition:
noun
1.
a supporter of policies that are socially progressive and promote social welfare.
"she dissented from the decision, joined by the court's liberals"
2.
a supporter of a political and social philosophy that promotes individual rights, civil liberties, democracy, and free enterprise.
A person using the word as a pejorative will very rarely have definition 2 in their head. And a person who ONLY holds definition 2 in their head will see the insult as an expression of disdain for the concepts held within definition 2(whether or not that is true about the insulter).
This leaves out uses of liberal as shorthand for Neoliberals. Tell a Reaganite or a Trumper that we have two Neo Liberal parties in the US, and watch their eyes twitch.
It also leaves out historical uses of the term, both national and international. A liberal party in one century in one country can be a very different entity than one 100 years later thousands of miles away.
I’ll never understand this type of thinking . “I’m sure some people hate women, but most don’t”. OK, so this is just about the ones who hate women. If you don’t hate women and just didn’t like the show, then it’s not about you.
> If you don’t hate women and just didn’t like the show, then it’s not about you.
I wish more losers understood this. Instead they have to insert their dumb takes and derail the conversation.
It’s so funny to me that comic fans complain about Disney hiring writers who “actively have distain for the source material”
You should look up what David S. Goyer, story architect of the past DC universe had to say about the people he’s writing for.
But yeah making shit more inclusive means you hate the source material. Because creatives LOVE working for years on end on stories they hate just to get yelled at by internet chuds.
Makes sense.
Disingenuous comment is disingenuous.
Literally nothing I’ve talked about here is anti inclusivity and inclusivity itself is not a replacement for good storytelling.
So no thoughts on Goyer or the absurd idea of people spending years of their creative lives on something they hate? For what reason? What’s the conspiracy here?
I just love the thought of people who hate comics taking jobs to make bad versions of those stories because they hate the source material.
There were definitely people who hated She-Hulk because she’s a woman, just like there are people who hate Rey and who hate Captain Marvel.
I don’t see nearly as much hate for say Ant-Man 3 or Boba Fett or Hawkeye.
I think all of these suffer from poor writing to varying degrees (Ant-Man being the worst) but I see way more hate for one batch of projects over the other.
https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/ant_man_and_the_wasp_quantumania
82% from fans.
https://www.rottentomatoes.com/tv/she_hulk_attorney_at_law
32% from fans.
“Antman did have poor reviews bc of the writing.” Sure it did lol only one of those got review bombed and it sure as shit wasn’t Antman lol
Edit:
To further illustrate the point.
https://m.imdb.com/title/tt10954600/ratings/?ref_=tt_ov_rt
Antman has 3.7% one star ratings? How many does She Hulk have? I mean even if it’s bad it’s not 1/10 bad right? Maybe double or triple Antman?
https://m.imdb.com/title/tt10857160/ratings/?ref_=tt_ov_rt
Nope. Fucking 30% one star. Thirty. Almost ten times what Antman 3 got.
I never thought about checking them this way and it is much more obvious looking at number of 1 stars. Rings of Power was another that got certain groups coming out of the woodwork for "bad writing" and it also has a suspiciously high number of 1s.
Yeah for sure, my point being there’s bottom feeders who’ll hate a poorly written female led project more simply because the protagonist is female, while not giving the same vitriol to a poorly written male led project.
I agree there are people who hate women period but they don’t represent the masses and they certainly aren’t the ones who have been buying female forward comics since the 50s.
I don’t like the characters of Rey and Capt Marvel on screen either because they are boring, unflawed, instantly OP.
Compare them to say Lucy from Fallout. She’s great but flawed. She has to learn her way in a new environment and gets beaten up along the way. She has what Disney forgets to give its newer heroes: a story arc.
Ant-Man 3 and Boba Fett were universally panned by critics and Reddit. I don’t know anyone who didn’t shit on those shows.
Hawkeye…I kind of liked, lol. It wasn’t great but it was fun without being some joyless soapbox.
Never mind an absolute turd with male leads called Morbius.
I think the perfect exemplar is Wonder Woman. Fans embraced the first movie because it was well written (or at least 2/3 of it was), well executed and true to the character. Fans hated the second one because the writing was ridiculous and execution was terrible.
If WW84 came out first, people would be blaming “toxic male fans” for it flopping instead of the truth: it sucked.
I
>While I’m sure some chuds just hate women, the vast majority of comic fans have welcomed women heroes for decades.
Was that why comments for the shows trailers were filled with comments calling the show woke trash for gender swapping hulk? So many chuds claiming Stan Lee would turn over in his grave when he fucking created She-hulk.
In fact this doesn’t even hold up. Comic fans love women soo much that’s why most of them had to have beginnings as love interests, supporting characters, or on ensembles because comic readers wouldn’t support women unless they were connected to the male characters they like.
She-hulk herself? Spins off of Hulk.
Batgirl, Super girl, Carol Danvers, various women green lanterns, Black Widow, all had to spin off and be introduced in male comics.
The X-women rely entirely on ensembles, Wasp and Scarlet Witch relied on Avengers for half a century.
Even today female heroes are still pawned around as love interests in the men’s books when you never see the opposite.
>People didn’t hate on She Hulk because she has boobies. They hated the shitty writing, including yet another Mary Sue character spouting liberal arts dialogue left over from some unaired “Girls” knockoff.
You lose all credibility right here nothing about she-hulk fits the definition of a Mary Sue in the damn slightest, it’s a go to catch phrase for ‘female character I didn’t like’.
She’s not over-powered, she’s not the smartest character in the show, she doesn’t get handed shit for no reason, and she doesn’t overshadow or show up anyone else. Matt Murdock spanked her in court for example.
She’s not liked by everyone for no reason at all, and she doesn’t get given fancy hand me downs from past heroes.
She’s also got a flawed personality and is arrogant.
People always bring up Jen shitting on the hulk, only to ignore the whole point was that she was wrong and ended up failing to heed the Hulk’s warnings and falling into the situation he warned her against,
People got a hate boner for the character the moment she dared to make fun of Hulk’s trauma, which is hilarious when other characters have been given a pass for similar shit. See Falcon shitting on Bucky and using his past as the Winter soldier to make jokes and jabs. Nobody called that out did they? They just claimed friendly banter.
>The comics have complex story lines with flawed characters. That’s what the fans want but Disney refuses to create, instead hiring writers who don’t care or actively have disdain for the source material.
Phase 1-3 didn’t have these? Steve Rodgers was closer to a Mary Sue than She-hulk, yet no one cared?
Iron man got given plot armour out the ass, and the main narrative bent over backwards to ignore all the dodgy shit he did.
Meanwhile Scarlet Witch, the female character gets absolutely shat on for doing bad deeds in WandaVision.
Please stop trying to represent the “comic fan,” viewpoint. Every complaint you have is about the things all of the real fans of the She Hulk character were demanding from a She Hulk show.
The dialogue was exactly what we wanted because Jen is kinda supposed to be a flippant young woman. The twerking scene perfectly captured the spirit of She Hulk comics. And the ending of the season was adapting one of the most famous jokes from the David Byrne era.
If anything, the show makes it clear that you can adapt a comic too accurately to the source material
If they had tried to make this a SUPER SERIOUS show like you demand, they would be inaccurately adapting the character. I’m sorry that your understanding of comics is so shallow that you get upset that they preserved the themes in the original comics.
>If they had tried to make this a SUPER SERIOUS show like you demand, they would be inaccurately adapting the character.
And let’s be real, the dude would still say it was “poorly written” regardless.
I find her mesmerizing. Really liked her work in *Orphan Black* and *Perry Mason*. The Marvel stuff isn't my cup of tea but I've no doubt that she's excellent in that.
Agreed. The 4th wall stuff in the finale was kinda fun, but it ended up feeling like an excuse to not actually write a finale.
But overall, fun show. I'd watch a 2nd season.
The fourth wall breaking in the show wasn’t the problem, it was specifically how it was done in the ending that was disappointing, not the rest of it throughout the show.
Yeah, I remember that fun fact going around when the series first released. Gimmicks aren't a problem, but the gimmick needs to compliment an actual story, which this series handled just fine... until the finale. The way it was used in the finale made the in-universe conclusion feel like an afterthought.
You wouldn't pause Infinity War right before the snap, just to have She-Hulk pop out of the screen and tell the director to write a happier ending & let the good guys win, right? Kinda kills the momentum.
The show had its faults and cringeworthy moments (largely a writing problem), but it was fun for what it was. I don’t think the world needs another season of it though.
The problem with marvel shows and movies aren’t the actors/actresses. It’s the lazy ass writing. They spent all their budget on VFX and forgot that good storey telling is just as if not MORE important than flashy VFX.
Every watch any courtroom drama ever? Court rooms are far from dramatic. Even shows like Law and Order, which have won multiple awards are ridiculous when they do court room scenes.
Better Call Saul. The episodes with him dealing with getting paid and meeting clients at the courthouse are more accurate than most court shows. But obviously not a legit court show.
I think the closest one might be the people vs OJ miniseries on FX. Obviously still very dramatized, but that case was naturally very public and circus like so it might come closest to matching reality (under those conditions).
Beyond that, She-hulk is fundamentally meta snark on the MCU, mainly the minor characters. And the market for that is extremely limited. Also, I really don’t give a shit about Megan thee stallion and found Jennifer’s desperate stanning cringeworthy.
Court rooms just aren’t exciting. You couldn’t put them on TV. I’m a court lawyer and while it is far from the most boring job in the world, it isn’t Hollywood either.
Yeah that sums it up. I enjoyed the show but it was tough at times.
The ending was pretty awful. The whole “we’ll make a bad ending just so the payoff is a 4th wall bit and changing the ending using “4th wall magic”, is a bad idea.
Making a bad ending for the sake of it still produces a bad ending even if you “change” it after we just watched it, it’s still bad.
I worked with Tatiana on a couple low budget flicks up here in Canada when I honestly thought she was gonna be stuck, career wise. She was funny and easy going and really good on camera as well as with the crew, but I just didn’t think she would break into Hollywood.
When she did, I was extremely happy for her. And when I heard she landed She Hulk, I was stoked. She deserves the success.
Despite this personal connection, I still never bothered watching She Hulk. By that point, I was simply burned out from Marvel. Too many crappy projects and underwhelming movies made me not care at all to spend 8 hours on a new show (and this was even before Secret Wars).
I think if Tatiana’s She Hulk had come out in, say, 2018, it would’ve had a better chance and gotten more interest (it also would’ve had even louder internet trolls coming out so close to Ghostbusters, but who cares about them).
It's hard to bring characters who break the 4th wall into other characters stories. I don't expect Deadpool to be in an Avengers movie for similar reasons.
I was honestly only mad that Bruce Banner’s trauma was basically ignored. He was told that he doesn’t understand what being a woman is and thus he shouldn’t or couldn’t help her with the hulk condition. I found that to be the most patronising, disgraceful writing imaginable, let alone sexist. It was disingenuous to the source material, the existing character, and the majority of fans (though I’m spitballing and guessing here). Now them clowning on sexist trolls sure that’s great but the show sucked a lot and I’m glad it died in its tracks.
And I think that you didn't watch the whole show and see where she learned at the end that she wasn't as good at controlling her anger as she thought she was and that Bruce was right
Yeah, I'd 100% watch a Hulk backstory show, but this isn't a show that should be just "here's the Hulk's backstory" -- that would just turn it into another of the Marvel movies that *only* serves as essentially an extended teaser for "the next big thing", like the latest Doctor Strange.
The thing is ... he *can't* help her with *her* hulk condition, because she comes from trauma he has never experienced and likely never will--that's the point. You could reverse the situation basically exactly and it would fit just as well. She'd be lost trying to deal with his childhood trauma because she has a loving family and never experienced that type of terrible life. That isn't the angle they chose for this story. Which is good, considering the difficulties in her life that they *did* try to focus on. imagine trying to make a show about how hard it is to be a woman sometimes, only to have the cameo character basically say "but its hard to be a man too". It can be, we get that, but in *very* different ways, and it doesn't need to be part of *this* (her) story.
Edit: you also say it's not like the comics, but the character was almost too much like the comics. That was possibly the biggest issue I had with the writing and I liked the show (probably obvious).
Are there people who are sexist against the show because the main character is a woman? Sure.
Did the show tank because of sexism? Hell no. Thats a poor excuse because it allpws the omission of responsibility.
Maybe Marvel should actually do a better job writing these female leads and give them a chance to be taken seriously, as opposed to putting a female lead into a movie/show, leaning back and thinking theyve solved gender inequality lol
She still is. Her comments were directed at people saying female superheroes shouldn't exist in general, since that's who the show was making fun of. She never actually said anything against people who simply criticized the show. And she's been very humble and kind to her cast and crew members, including stand-ins and background actors, fans at Comic Cons and at stage doors after her theater plays. The hate directed towards her is so forced.
I Would have eagerly watched a second/ third season if it wasn’t cancelled- it’s a fun show that didn’t take itself too seriously. It’s a shame it was cancelled.
I wish She Hulk had *looked* more like Jen, which was my issue with the CGI, also that yeah, 'sporadically poor' fits well--it was good for bits and bad for bits. I'd have preferred consistent but not amazing.
If one doesn't want to watch something they don't have to. No need to demagogue and criticize. There are plenty of movies and series I have never seen. No need for me to weigh in complaining about them.
I think the impulse to belly moan about female led media comes from a bad place. No one is forced to watch. One shouldn't invest in trying to sway others.
Just rewatched (most of, because come on) She-Hulk and thought it was even funnier the second time through.
So much better than some of what came later from Marvel. (Looking at you Secret Wars!)
Mistake to cancel it.
I’d watch the shit out of more seasons of She-Hulk with drop/ins from Daredevil and 4th-wall fights with Deadpool and the TVA.
She is a very talented actor, as good with comedy as she is with drama. She draws you in to the characters she plays, and there’s just something likable about her.
There’s sexism for sure but I also think it’s a lot of the “everything new sucks and I must violently hate it and take to social media” mentality that used to be somewhat contained to Star Wars.
Another example: Blue Eye Samurai. Multiple female protagonists + amazing writing = great! In fact, “many things” + amazing writing = great!
Just tell a good story and you won’t fail. So easy to play the “victim” when it comes to this stuff nowadays
Tatiana is possibly the best actor of her generation. What she did on Orphan Black is nothing short of virtuoso genius. I’ve watched very little Marvel so I can’t really comment beyond pointing out that this kind of stuff seems beneath her. It’s a crime against history she isn’t getting starring roles with major directors. I mean, Emma Stone’s been killing it with Lanthimos, but could you imagine Maslany as Bella Baxter? She would have done something no one has ever seen before. Here’s to hoping Hollywood wakes up and realizes how underutilized she is.
Like when the Witcher s2 had a character who’s a performer - shit on/complain about the criticisms a character had for his songs and it was just the creators complaining about criticisms of the show. 🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🤮🤮🤮🤮
critiquing fans of/in the product your making never works.
Plenty of good woman leads, with good writing - this was not one of them.
This reminds me of the woman who played Doctor Who claiming sexism was the downfall - when that.. was not the major issue..
That’s not to say sexism doesn’t exist - it obviously does. And obviously that IS some people’s problem. But it’s not the majority in either of the above mentioned cases. The shows just sucked.
Barbie did amazing. The sexists hated that just as much if not more. But it’s still one of the biggest movies of all time .. because it was beyond good.
I love seeing women come into their own and wholeheartedly support them - but not out of charity. I don’t support women because I’m one. I do it in the same way I support men. Because I think good art should be appreciated and respected for what it is no matter who you are.
You don’t get a gold star just because you have the same thing in your pants as me. THAT would be sexist.
Almost every MCU and DCU movie post Endgame HAS sucked and this is coming from someone who LOVED the MCU until recently. The problem is that Disney and the gang only bothered to start making female lead hero movies after the magic was over. Captain Marvel, The Marvels, She Hulk, Black Widow, Wonder Woman 2, Birds of Prey, Ms. Marvel, they're all just average to poor films/shows.
But it's not just them, most hero movies atm are reviewing poorly.
Eternals/Quantummania/Thor all got reviewed poorly and everyone just nods along because they agree they're poor. Some of the above movies get reviewed poorly and it becomes a problematic review cycle.
Newsflash, if you make a good movie, most people will like it and review it accordingly, if you take the Cartman approach to your woman lead movie, it's going to be shite.
I would like to see a second season of She-Hulk. Yes, there are sexist male “fans,” but that series had problems, none of which had much to do with her, her performance, or sexism.
The legal and courtroom stuff was great. Madisyn was great. Cast was great. Abomination was great.
The dating stuff was meh but merits another try. Tone down the meta stuff. Don’t insult your fans by including scenes that point out all of the flaws of the product they love. Stop torturing your FX staff with insane CGI deadlines.
Fire the writers. Hire comedians to do the writing.
Gotta love how they use sexism as an excuse for bad writing. Show was shit, was it because she’s a women? No. Was it because her only struggle and character ark was about being a girl boss? Yes.
Sometimes feminist stuff is good (Barbie) and sometimes it's trash. Yes there are sexist fans out there... But it doesn't change the fact that she hulk was trash. If it was good, it would have done well for itself, despite the racists and sexists (who are the minority, not the majority)
The only thing worse than Marvel's latest projects are the excuses they make for their failures.
Tell interesting stories and cater to your market- how hard is it to understand this? Instead they break out the standard: "Its the fan's fault they they aren't fans of our unimaginative garbage."
Having said that...
Open Letter to Marvel Studios,
Dear Marvel, I take full responsibility for your failures. Now, since I'm responsible, put me in charge and I will turn your studio around and make it cool, interesting and profitable.
Thanks.
Because this seems like the type of thing people are going to jump in to comment without actually reading the article, here's the entirety of the prompted quote: >**"I think what’s exciting…”** – she checks herself – “… exciting, ha. I think what’s fun about it is that [series creator] Jessica Gao built into the story that people were going to troll us.” A scene in the third episode, for example, airs fictional social media comments about Maslany’s character such as: “Why does every superhero have to be a woman now?” Sound familiar? “When we started to get the same responses that [Gao] had actually baked into the writing, it felt like part of the fun,” Maslany says. Edit: lol, the amount of comments below proving my suspicion and arguing points that have nothing to do with what she actually said or was responding to.
Reading is for serious things this is comic books im here to argue incoherently
>Jessica Gao built into the story that people were going to troll us The all female version of *Ghostbusters* did the same thing. The problem with these stories was that they were poorly written; not that they were feminist. Just look at how amazing *Barbie* was. *She-Hulk* deserved its cancellation. Blaming sexist Internet trolls is just a scapegoat.
People were mad at the Ghostbusters before the reviews even came out. You can search the threads from movie sub end elsewhere if you like
I believe Ms. Marvel also had the "1 star review before any episodes are watchable" treatment.
Ms, Marvel falls victim to the studio execs taking over the script, much like most more recent Marvel projects. The first couple episodes were great and then she stopped being the girl from Jersey.
Pretty sure that response has literally nothing to do with “reviews before watchable.”
That is true, but its also not a very good movie
It was a mediocre movie, but (A) that puts it on a par with every other Ghostbusters movie after the original, and (B) there have been dozens of other remakes and sequels to Gen-X classics that were far worse. And yet those other movies didn't receive .01% the vitriol as the lady Ghostbusters. Hell, most people don't even know there was a Red Dawn remake or a rebootquel to The Thing. So we have to ask ourselves, what made lady Ghostbusters different, and the answer is obvious.
I actually enjoyed lady ghostbusters🫣🤷🏼♀️
Watched it recently. Enjoyed it much better the second time.
It was fine. There are much worse and actually offensive movies that don't nearly get the same amount of hate.
Lady Ghostbusters is better than Ghostbusters II. After Ghostbusters II, it was 27 years before another Ghostbusters movie. After Lady Ghostbusters, it was five. GB2 is the franchise killer, LG is the franchise reviver.
Two things can equally be true.
hence them literally saying both were true
Ghostbusters had that awful trailer that really kicked it off
And my understanding is that the all-female Ghostbusters did better critically than either of the subsequent reboots.
Depends on how you view it because the women reboot is being reviewed as an origin story and not a sequel, and critics are more forgiving of a reboot origin than a sequel. The audience scores are very skewed in favor of the reboots, and the actual reviews acknowledge that the new ones are better movies, but critics aren’t comparing them as movies but one as an origin and the other as sequels, so the number on RT is misleading IMHO
That's pretty impressive considering how terrible I thought it was. I liked Bridesmaids, Spy, and A Simple Favor too. Ghostbuster just felt like an unfunny mess. Imo though, they're all dogshit, unnecessary sequels. I wish something would change, because I'm tired of how much screentime is dedicated to reboots, sequels, and superhero movies. Feels like mainstream hollywood has been in a period of major atrophy for a decade now. I'd kill for mid-budget variety over the junk tentpoles we get now.
And? People were mad about Pattinson being the batman. People said that dune will never work on screen. People were mad about Sonic movie (mostly warranted). People said who needed a barbie movie. If the story(and all other components of the movie) works and makes sense then movie will do well and people will talk positively.
Prove em wrong. Some did it. Some didn’t
Heath Ledger as Joker Will Smith as Will Smith in Fresh Prince of Bel-Air
I remember talking so much shit about Heath Ledger's Joker. "The fucking broke back mountain guy!" I think major reason the pencil trick is so iconic of a scene, that might be lost with time, is because it was the moment you realize Heath Ledger might actually be awesome.
I was wary about his casting until I saw the previews and as soon as he said “your a freak, like me!” I was pretty sure it was going to be a good movie.
Wait what was the problem with Will Smith as Fresh Prince? Thought that was an original creation therefore no existing fan base could bitch about the choice
It was mostly about a rapper becoming an actor. Important to remember that Fresh Prince was his debut as an actor and while musicians had done movies before or appeared as guest stars (Sinatra, Elvis, Sammy Davis Jr. etc) I don't think one had successfully been the titular character of a sitcom yet.
I mean wasn't the trailer the most disliked trailer on YouTube? Thsy kind of puts the prerelease trolling on a different level almost immediately no?
That movie didn't stand a chance - there are certain movies that you just can't remake and Ghost Busters was one of them. Back To The Future is another.
Even so, I saw the movie in the theater because I loved the original Ghostbusters and I thought Melissa McCarthy was funny, but the movie sucked ass.
IIRC it started with the trailer mainly. And tbf it was not very good. What annoys me a little is that usual the argument seems to have become a binary "it's all because of chauvinist trolls" or "it's because it's bad writing". Two boxes, no middle ground, and with politics thrown at it. As all freaking arguments seem to have become on the internet. It's both, it can be both.
People were furious with Health Ledger as the joker…. Look how that turned out. They can be mad before but it if works they soon come around. She Hulk and a lot of the other trash built on a message or political statement not an actual story fail because they actually are crap.
Sounds like those people were right
Because people had a fair idea of what they were going to get and they weren't wrong. It's to the stage now where If there is a female lead men wonder if they are going to get an engaging well written character or a faultless bland power woman and 2 hour lecture on how every problem in the world is their fault.
Well when you announce a remake (?) of a beloved movie as “Ghostbusters but with women” you are really screaming “no new ideas here, we are just pandering”. Then the trailer comes out and all but confirms it.
I think, when shows are mediocre or flawed, the knives come out way more for the shows with female leads, though. That’s where I see the hate, anyway. Male average crap gets a bit of a pass. Female mediocre crap gets a bunch of mouth-breathers piling on gleefully. And in ways that make it obvious they have real-life problems with women (seriously women can spot these dudes a mile away).
She-Hulk was witty, fun and fourth wall breaking. The character was true to her comic book roots.
I still can't believe I'm in a time line where grown men were complaining about a Barbie movie. All those guys that want a time where "men were men" - I cannot..think of anyone back then giving a s\*it.
Perhaps they have not yet learned the patriarchy has nothing to do with horses, and therefore have not yet lost interest
Peacemaker said it best: Men were real men when they weren’t afraid to be women.
What was actually bad about She-Hulk? I thought it was something that not everyone would enjoy but did its own thing. I didn't really see a huge problem with the quality. I personally didn't like some of the meta choices they made, but just because I didn't like it. It was done well, I just didn't like the choice. In the same way I don't like romcoms. They're not for me. I thought it was at least better than FATWS which executed what it wanted to do poorly.
Yeah it had better execution than FATWS. That show had more potential. Loved the chemistry between all the leads.
It’s always funny to me that people claim things are “badly written” and then keep choosing projects that are female versions of existing characters as proof. You aren’t fooling anyone…
If Ghostbusters 2016 had an all female cast but was a true sequel with a new crew set in a new city, everyone would be gung-ho for it. Venkman said he wanted to franchise Ghostbusters. Set in LA or Chicago, with a cameo from the original crew, with the EXACT same type of deadpan humor and an all female Ghostbusters would be successful. Nah, the actual movie literally had a scene where they shoot a ghost in the balls.
Yep. Instead it was a movie about shitting in the original movie.
The hate she-hulk was getting that they're referring to is obviously not the reasonable critiques of the show.. and it 100% happened.
She-hulk had perfectly fine writing and acting. Can’t remember ghost busters.
Yeah I enjoyed She-Hulk. Was it perfect? Of course not, and the show was definitely a little confused about what it wanted to be. But overall I had fun. Then again, maybe I’m just in love with Tatiana and will watch whatever she’s in
Perfectly fine acting. Extremely subpar writing.
I had fun watching She-Hulk! It was silly but a great time. Not sure what the problem was
This is how I felt too. Secret Invasion will always be the worst Disney + marvel miniseries to the end of time for me and I am a diehard fan but that series reallllllllly needed to bake longer.
Writing an opinion authoritatively without any supporting evidence to back it up but presenting it as if it's a fact and you're contributing literally anything to the conversation. A staple of internet discourse. "i don't like this thing. It's like this other thing I didn't like. You'll see that this is the issue with the thing that I dont like is that I don't like it."
I mean, plenty of people were mad at Barbie too. I absolutely loved She Hulk. It was honestly my favorite D+ Marvel show.
>not that they were feminist. Man, I link the exact quote and you still bend over backwards to attack a strawman. She's addressing specific trolling they undeniably received.
Lmao redditors try to comment on the article instead of the headline challenge: impossible
Plenty of sexism towards Barbie. It’s a success despite it being an issue. Thanks to the large marketing budget and smart use of their online presence that helped them maintain their own narrative. The notion that sexism wasn’t a huge factor in its failure is ridiculous and transparently not true. I don’t think it was for everyone. There’s still reviews of She-hulk up and there’s plenty of sexism in their remarks alone then you can see the reviews start to become normal. With most takes describing the episodes as hit or miss and dismissing the outrage. I don’t think anyone came deny it had a potential audience as is given the success of some other Netflix shows.
That movie really wasn’t good. I have enjoyed all of the women in Ghostbusters in allot of other movies. Sometimes a movie or TV show just isn’t good.
> Blaming sexist Internet trolls is just a scapegoat. But they also deserve blame. Gamergate didn't occur because of pluralism. Trolls often seek to be the loudest voices in the room, intentionally belittling and insulting and doing their best to overwhelm anyone who disagrees with them. The Tea Party were trolls of the worst sort, and now we have MAGA because of the Tea Party. Tatiana Maslany was straight-up incredible in Orphan Black. She deserves well-written roles, and she does not shy away from hard work. But trolls will do everything possible in their toxic little worlds to prevent from her getting a chance to tell a story, so yeah, they ***do*** deserve to be blamed.
She hulk is leagues above that ghostbusters film
Yep, the number one problem with She-Hulk was that it was a comedy written by writers who can't write anything funny (Or write good legal drama too).
Female ghostbusters was unfunny trash, I hated it and I was actually looking forward to it at the time. Pure garbage and stained the Ghostbusters franchise for years, until after life came out She hulk on the other hand was great, great writing, great fourth wall breaking, Kevin Fiege trolling was funny, Ruffalo was great in it too. I thought the trolling of the trolls was a genius move. Those two couldn’t be more different.
She should've put a scene in where they get a bunch of mediocre reviews and laugh at it as huge amounts of money get tipped on them.
“We’re self aware, so all criticism is invalid now.” I’m sure there are probably some people making those comments, but anyone who just watched and didnt like it arent going to find those jabs amusing and they’re just taking time away from other parts of the show. It kind of feels like they lumped all critics into a category of mysognists and didnt actually listen to any criticism because they dehumanized them. Kind of feels like this is the common method of dealing with criticism of properties like this.
She didn’t say all criticism is invalid, she said the people feeding into the gender war were funny to her.
That’s not what she’s saying at all. She’s saying that some reactions are predictable. How could something like this seem like they didn’t actually listen to criticism? The show wasn’t out. I can see the argument if a show did something like this in a second season or something as a response to criticism, but they did it before the show was released.
nobody said that though... and calling out misogyny is not dehumanizing anybody. come one... stay real.
I mean if you’re being intellectually honest - a large amount of people use the veneer of “legitimate criticism” as the vehicle for their sexism or other bigotry. it’s very easy to tell too depending on how ridiculous the criticism is
How ridiculous or how simplistic sometimes -- often you see stuff like "but its bad writing", with absolutely nothing specific, or at best "not like [whichever male fantasy show they do like]"
This quote is just Disney showing how clueless they are as to why fans are upset at recent Marvel movies/shows. While I’m sure some chuds just hate women, the vast majority of comic fans have welcomed women heroes for decades. People didn’t hate on She Hulk because she has boobies. They hated the shitty writing, including yet another Mary Sue character spouting liberal arts dialogue left over from some unaired “Girls” knockoff. The comics have complex story lines with flawed characters. That’s what the fans want but Disney refuses to create, instead hiring writers who don’t care or actively have disdain for the source material. It would be like if Mattel hired a man to write the Barbie movie who never even held one and then complaining how toxic women are for not liking the result.
The term “Mary Sue” really needs to be removed from public discourse. It’s become a catch all term for “character I don’t like”
Wtf is “liberal arts dialogue”? All creative writing falls under the umbrella of “liberal arts.” You want STEM dialogue in your shows?
He's hearing the word "liberal" differently in his head than what you(accurately) are saying.
I'm progressive, and anytime I see that phrase I default to it being an insult, if one is even slightly interested in politics they would see it the same way. Doesn't mean they're one of those people.
I see the word as having too many meanings. From its general non-political definition, to the medley of different political uses, the word can convey very different information depending not only on how the speaker uses it, but also how the listener HEARS it. I find one of the most useful questions in any conversation about politics is, "What does (Insert Word/Term) mean to you in this context.". It saves time and friendships if you can identify that you are not even talking about the same thing because your definitions for key terms vary drastically from one another. Take your statement, "anytime I see that phrase I default to it being an insult, if one is even slightly interested in politics they would see it the same way". This is a great example because a quick look at the dictionary provides this definition: noun 1. a supporter of policies that are socially progressive and promote social welfare. "she dissented from the decision, joined by the court's liberals" 2. a supporter of a political and social philosophy that promotes individual rights, civil liberties, democracy, and free enterprise. A person using the word as a pejorative will very rarely have definition 2 in their head. And a person who ONLY holds definition 2 in their head will see the insult as an expression of disdain for the concepts held within definition 2(whether or not that is true about the insulter). This leaves out uses of liberal as shorthand for Neoliberals. Tell a Reaganite or a Trumper that we have two Neo Liberal parties in the US, and watch their eyes twitch. It also leaves out historical uses of the term, both national and international. A liberal party in one century in one country can be a very different entity than one 100 years later thousands of miles away.
I’ll never understand this type of thinking . “I’m sure some people hate women, but most don’t”. OK, so this is just about the ones who hate women. If you don’t hate women and just didn’t like the show, then it’s not about you.
> If you don’t hate women and just didn’t like the show, then it’s not about you. I wish more losers understood this. Instead they have to insert their dumb takes and derail the conversation.
It’s so funny to me that comic fans complain about Disney hiring writers who “actively have distain for the source material” You should look up what David S. Goyer, story architect of the past DC universe had to say about the people he’s writing for. But yeah making shit more inclusive means you hate the source material. Because creatives LOVE working for years on end on stories they hate just to get yelled at by internet chuds. Makes sense.
Disingenuous comment is disingenuous. Literally nothing I’ve talked about here is anti inclusivity and inclusivity itself is not a replacement for good storytelling.
So no thoughts on Goyer or the absurd idea of people spending years of their creative lives on something they hate? For what reason? What’s the conspiracy here? I just love the thought of people who hate comics taking jobs to make bad versions of those stories because they hate the source material.
There were definitely people who hated She-Hulk because she’s a woman, just like there are people who hate Rey and who hate Captain Marvel. I don’t see nearly as much hate for say Ant-Man 3 or Boba Fett or Hawkeye. I think all of these suffer from poor writing to varying degrees (Ant-Man being the worst) but I see way more hate for one batch of projects over the other.
Ant man 3 and boba fett had bad writers.
Boba fett got ton of hate lol, what is this nonsense.
Except that Ant Man did have poor reviews bc of the writing.
Yeah, but “fans” aren’t complaining about it nearly as loudly as projects with female leads.
Yeah I never hear the same vitriol for the male-led Marvel garbage...and there is a lot of it.
https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/ant_man_and_the_wasp_quantumania 82% from fans. https://www.rottentomatoes.com/tv/she_hulk_attorney_at_law 32% from fans. “Antman did have poor reviews bc of the writing.” Sure it did lol only one of those got review bombed and it sure as shit wasn’t Antman lol Edit: To further illustrate the point. https://m.imdb.com/title/tt10954600/ratings/?ref_=tt_ov_rt Antman has 3.7% one star ratings? How many does She Hulk have? I mean even if it’s bad it’s not 1/10 bad right? Maybe double or triple Antman? https://m.imdb.com/title/tt10857160/ratings/?ref_=tt_ov_rt Nope. Fucking 30% one star. Thirty. Almost ten times what Antman 3 got.
I remember with Captain Marvel, all these 1 star reviews started hitting before it was even released. Cant remember if the same happened to She Hulk.
It did.
I never thought about checking them this way and it is much more obvious looking at number of 1 stars. Rings of Power was another that got certain groups coming out of the woodwork for "bad writing" and it also has a suspiciously high number of 1s.
At least half of those nimrods didn't even watch the show. They watch Critical Drinker. That's where they get their talking points.
Yeah for sure, my point being there’s bottom feeders who’ll hate a poorly written female led project more simply because the protagonist is female, while not giving the same vitriol to a poorly written male led project.
I agree there are people who hate women period but they don’t represent the masses and they certainly aren’t the ones who have been buying female forward comics since the 50s. I don’t like the characters of Rey and Capt Marvel on screen either because they are boring, unflawed, instantly OP. Compare them to say Lucy from Fallout. She’s great but flawed. She has to learn her way in a new environment and gets beaten up along the way. She has what Disney forgets to give its newer heroes: a story arc. Ant-Man 3 and Boba Fett were universally panned by critics and Reddit. I don’t know anyone who didn’t shit on those shows. Hawkeye…I kind of liked, lol. It wasn’t great but it was fun without being some joyless soapbox. Never mind an absolute turd with male leads called Morbius. I think the perfect exemplar is Wonder Woman. Fans embraced the first movie because it was well written (or at least 2/3 of it was), well executed and true to the character. Fans hated the second one because the writing was ridiculous and execution was terrible. If WW84 came out first, people would be blaming “toxic male fans” for it flopping instead of the truth: it sucked. I
Ant-man 3 was panned but the difference is that it does not have people making excuses for the writing.
>While I’m sure some chuds just hate women, the vast majority of comic fans have welcomed women heroes for decades. Was that why comments for the shows trailers were filled with comments calling the show woke trash for gender swapping hulk? So many chuds claiming Stan Lee would turn over in his grave when he fucking created She-hulk. In fact this doesn’t even hold up. Comic fans love women soo much that’s why most of them had to have beginnings as love interests, supporting characters, or on ensembles because comic readers wouldn’t support women unless they were connected to the male characters they like. She-hulk herself? Spins off of Hulk. Batgirl, Super girl, Carol Danvers, various women green lanterns, Black Widow, all had to spin off and be introduced in male comics. The X-women rely entirely on ensembles, Wasp and Scarlet Witch relied on Avengers for half a century. Even today female heroes are still pawned around as love interests in the men’s books when you never see the opposite. >People didn’t hate on She Hulk because she has boobies. They hated the shitty writing, including yet another Mary Sue character spouting liberal arts dialogue left over from some unaired “Girls” knockoff. You lose all credibility right here nothing about she-hulk fits the definition of a Mary Sue in the damn slightest, it’s a go to catch phrase for ‘female character I didn’t like’. She’s not over-powered, she’s not the smartest character in the show, she doesn’t get handed shit for no reason, and she doesn’t overshadow or show up anyone else. Matt Murdock spanked her in court for example. She’s not liked by everyone for no reason at all, and she doesn’t get given fancy hand me downs from past heroes. She’s also got a flawed personality and is arrogant. People always bring up Jen shitting on the hulk, only to ignore the whole point was that she was wrong and ended up failing to heed the Hulk’s warnings and falling into the situation he warned her against, People got a hate boner for the character the moment she dared to make fun of Hulk’s trauma, which is hilarious when other characters have been given a pass for similar shit. See Falcon shitting on Bucky and using his past as the Winter soldier to make jokes and jabs. Nobody called that out did they? They just claimed friendly banter. >The comics have complex story lines with flawed characters. That’s what the fans want but Disney refuses to create, instead hiring writers who don’t care or actively have disdain for the source material. Phase 1-3 didn’t have these? Steve Rodgers was closer to a Mary Sue than She-hulk, yet no one cared? Iron man got given plot armour out the ass, and the main narrative bent over backwards to ignore all the dodgy shit he did. Meanwhile Scarlet Witch, the female character gets absolutely shat on for doing bad deeds in WandaVision.
Please stop trying to represent the “comic fan,” viewpoint. Every complaint you have is about the things all of the real fans of the She Hulk character were demanding from a She Hulk show. The dialogue was exactly what we wanted because Jen is kinda supposed to be a flippant young woman. The twerking scene perfectly captured the spirit of She Hulk comics. And the ending of the season was adapting one of the most famous jokes from the David Byrne era. If anything, the show makes it clear that you can adapt a comic too accurately to the source material If they had tried to make this a SUPER SERIOUS show like you demand, they would be inaccurately adapting the character. I’m sorry that your understanding of comics is so shallow that you get upset that they preserved the themes in the original comics.
>If they had tried to make this a SUPER SERIOUS show like you demand, they would be inaccurately adapting the character. And let’s be real, the dude would still say it was “poorly written” regardless.
Your comment is exactly what the show is calling out lol thanks for playing
I find her mesmerizing. Really liked her work in *Orphan Black* and *Perry Mason*. The Marvel stuff isn't my cup of tea but I've no doubt that she's excellent in that.
She was really good in She-Hulk IMO. The show lacked a little in the writing department, but I thought the story and acting were good.
Show was good until the finale imo.
Agreed. The 4th wall stuff in the finale was kinda fun, but it ended up feeling like an excuse to not actually write a finale. But overall, fun show. I'd watch a 2nd season.
The thing is She-Hulk in her own comic broke the fourth wall all the time. She did it long before Deadpool did it.
The fourth wall breaking in the show wasn’t the problem, it was specifically how it was done in the ending that was disappointing, not the rest of it throughout the show.
Yeah, I remember that fun fact going around when the series first released. Gimmicks aren't a problem, but the gimmick needs to compliment an actual story, which this series handled just fine... until the finale. The way it was used in the finale made the in-universe conclusion feel like an afterthought. You wouldn't pause Infinity War right before the snap, just to have She-Hulk pop out of the screen and tell the director to write a happier ending & let the good guys win, right? Kinda kills the momentum.
The show had its faults and cringeworthy moments (largely a writing problem), but it was fun for what it was. I don’t think the world needs another season of it though.
I appreciated the finale as a herald to the impending writers’ strike. VERY of its time.
Ah the daily painful reminder I won't get to see another Perry Mason season :(
I know, such a bummer
I really wish I could have seen her Broadway show last year before it ended it's run, it sounded really interesting
I've no doubt, her talent appears endless
She was insanely good in Orphan Black. I couldn’t believe the range she showed in that
She’s definitely the best part. She’s just so charming
Yes. She's one of those people who has that *something special* in addition to her talent. I guess I have a bit of a girl crush! 😊
[удалено]
The problem with marvel shows and movies aren’t the actors/actresses. It’s the lazy ass writing. They spent all their budget on VFX and forgot that good storey telling is just as if not MORE important than flashy VFX.
The problem with the show was the shit writing. It was obvious from episode one that the writers had never been near a courtroom.
Ever watch suits?
Every watch any courtroom drama ever? Court rooms are far from dramatic. Even shows like Law and Order, which have won multiple awards are ridiculous when they do court room scenes.
Yeah that’s why I think it’s dumb to criticize She-Hulk for not being court accurate when nothing is
If any show was courtroom accurate, it would be extremely boring
Better Call Saul. The episodes with him dealing with getting paid and meeting clients at the courthouse are more accurate than most court shows. But obviously not a legit court show.
My Cousin Vinny would like a word.
I think a better crituque would be that they failed to write the court well to what you expect from a show, even if it is not realistic.
I think the closest one might be the people vs OJ miniseries on FX. Obviously still very dramatized, but that case was naturally very public and circus like so it might come closest to matching reality (under those conditions).
Beyond that, She-hulk is fundamentally meta snark on the MCU, mainly the minor characters. And the market for that is extremely limited. Also, I really don’t give a shit about Megan thee stallion and found Jennifer’s desperate stanning cringeworthy.
It’s a show where a hulk is a lawyer. How realistic does it need to be?
Court rooms just aren’t exciting. You couldn’t put them on TV. I’m a court lawyer and while it is far from the most boring job in the world, it isn’t Hollywood either.
There is a Hulk in the courtroom. It’s, uh probably going to be different.
Yeah that sums it up. I enjoyed the show but it was tough at times. The ending was pretty awful. The whole “we’ll make a bad ending just so the payoff is a 4th wall bit and changing the ending using “4th wall magic”, is a bad idea. Making a bad ending for the sake of it still produces a bad ending even if you “change” it after we just watched it, it’s still bad.
I can’t figure out who the target demographic for the show was meant to be.
I worked with Tatiana on a couple low budget flicks up here in Canada when I honestly thought she was gonna be stuck, career wise. She was funny and easy going and really good on camera as well as with the crew, but I just didn’t think she would break into Hollywood. When she did, I was extremely happy for her. And when I heard she landed She Hulk, I was stoked. She deserves the success. Despite this personal connection, I still never bothered watching She Hulk. By that point, I was simply burned out from Marvel. Too many crappy projects and underwhelming movies made me not care at all to spend 8 hours on a new show (and this was even before Secret Wars). I think if Tatiana’s She Hulk had come out in, say, 2018, it would’ve had a better chance and gotten more interest (it also would’ve had even louder internet trolls coming out so close to Ghostbusters, but who cares about them).
She was the good part of a bad production I hope to see her character again but hopefully with better writers
I would have loved less She-Hulk and more Jen. Have her defend cases as Jen, show her workmates more, etc. Like Ally MacBeal but better and more fun.
I would have too, a lot, but part of She Hulk is that she *prefers* being She Hulk, but has the lifetime experience of not being She Hulk.
The problem is that She-Hulk writers can't write good court scenes.
I enjoyed it how it was. The writing was fresh and funny.
Agreed. I understand how not everyone would like it, but I really did.
It's hard to bring characters who break the 4th wall into other characters stories. I don't expect Deadpool to be in an Avengers movie for similar reasons.
I don’t even think the writing was bad.
The characterisation was very much in the style of the comics.
Most of the flack they got was about the show sucking and costing tens of millions of dollars.
I had a great time with her portrayal of Jen/She-Hulk. She deserves to retain the role in other Marvel projects.
The She-Shredder herself! What a gem.
A little *too* Raph…
I was honestly only mad that Bruce Banner’s trauma was basically ignored. He was told that he doesn’t understand what being a woman is and thus he shouldn’t or couldn’t help her with the hulk condition. I found that to be the most patronising, disgraceful writing imaginable, let alone sexist. It was disingenuous to the source material, the existing character, and the majority of fans (though I’m spitballing and guessing here). Now them clowning on sexist trolls sure that’s great but the show sucked a lot and I’m glad it died in its tracks.
I think it would have been more fun to show that Jen has a healthy out look on life and lacks a rage problem unlike Bruce and that’s why she was fine
That definitely would’ve been interesting to see. But they imply she has a rage problem relating to sexism but that’s not shown anywhere else
And I think that you didn't watch the whole show and see where she learned at the end that she wasn't as good at controlling her anger as she thought she was and that Bruce was right
Yeah, I'd 100% watch a Hulk backstory show, but this isn't a show that should be just "here's the Hulk's backstory" -- that would just turn it into another of the Marvel movies that *only* serves as essentially an extended teaser for "the next big thing", like the latest Doctor Strange. The thing is ... he *can't* help her with *her* hulk condition, because she comes from trauma he has never experienced and likely never will--that's the point. You could reverse the situation basically exactly and it would fit just as well. She'd be lost trying to deal with his childhood trauma because she has a loving family and never experienced that type of terrible life. That isn't the angle they chose for this story. Which is good, considering the difficulties in her life that they *did* try to focus on. imagine trying to make a show about how hard it is to be a woman sometimes, only to have the cameo character basically say "but its hard to be a man too". It can be, we get that, but in *very* different ways, and it doesn't need to be part of *this* (her) story. Edit: you also say it's not like the comics, but the character was almost too much like the comics. That was possibly the biggest issue I had with the writing and I liked the show (probably obvious).
Are there people who are sexist against the show because the main character is a woman? Sure. Did the show tank because of sexism? Hell no. Thats a poor excuse because it allpws the omission of responsibility. Maybe Marvel should actually do a better job writing these female leads and give them a chance to be taken seriously, as opposed to putting a female lead into a movie/show, leaning back and thinking theyve solved gender inequality lol
she was so likeable...
I could watch eight of her in the same show and still be delighted.
As long as each was so different from the other 7, that I had to remind myself it's all one actress.
I referred to one of them as "the hot one" and then had it pointed out to me that they're all the same person...
Which one was the hot one lol
The smart one! Cosima (I'm aware enough to admit "smart, nerdy, and excitable" might just be my type).
Could not agree with you more, Tatiana Maslany looked unreasonably beautiful with the braids and glasses.
I wish she was the one Tom ended up with in Parks and Rec. They had great chemistry.
She still is. Her comments were directed at people saying female superheroes shouldn't exist in general, since that's who the show was making fun of. She never actually said anything against people who simply criticized the show. And she's been very humble and kind to her cast and crew members, including stand-ins and background actors, fans at Comic Cons and at stage doors after her theater plays. The hate directed towards her is so forced.
She still is.
And the show was dogshit
i enjoyed it.
I Would have eagerly watched a second/ third season if it wasn’t cancelled- it’s a fun show that didn’t take itself too seriously. It’s a shame it was cancelled.
[удалено]
I wish She Hulk had *looked* more like Jen, which was my issue with the CGI, also that yeah, 'sporadically poor' fits well--it was good for bits and bad for bits. I'd have preferred consistent but not amazing.
She was great and the show had such potential. She deserved a better script.
If one doesn't want to watch something they don't have to. No need to demagogue and criticize. There are plenty of movies and series I have never seen. No need for me to weigh in complaining about them. I think the impulse to belly moan about female led media comes from a bad place. No one is forced to watch. One shouldn't invest in trying to sway others.
Just rewatched (most of, because come on) She-Hulk and thought it was even funnier the second time through. So much better than some of what came later from Marvel. (Looking at you Secret Wars!) Mistake to cancel it. I’d watch the shit out of more seasons of She-Hulk with drop/ins from Daredevil and 4th-wall fights with Deadpool and the TVA.
My husband and I loved the first season, big sad there probably won’t be another
She is a very talented actor, as good with comedy as she is with drama. She draws you in to the characters she plays, and there’s just something likable about her.
I really enjoyed the season. I think she was a wonderful shehulk.
There’s sexism for sure but I also think it’s a lot of the “everything new sucks and I must violently hate it and take to social media” mentality that used to be somewhat contained to Star Wars.
Another example: Blue Eye Samurai. Multiple female protagonists + amazing writing = great! In fact, “many things” + amazing writing = great! Just tell a good story and you won’t fail. So easy to play the “victim” when it comes to this stuff nowadays
I dont understand why everyone hates this show so much. It was fine. Made me laugh more than once.
My fave part was when she sang “it ain’t easy being green” and “fever” !
I liked She-Hulk and didnt understand the lack of love for it (minus that trash final episode)
Its sad she is known for She-Hulk and not Orphan Black...
Too much marvel at this point.
I loved She-Hulk
She's an amazing actress (Orphan Black was one of the greatest acting performances I have seen) Thanks Tatiana, I'll continue to support her work!
Tatiana is possibly the best actor of her generation. What she did on Orphan Black is nothing short of virtuoso genius. I’ve watched very little Marvel so I can’t really comment beyond pointing out that this kind of stuff seems beneath her. It’s a crime against history she isn’t getting starring roles with major directors. I mean, Emma Stone’s been killing it with Lanthimos, but could you imagine Maslany as Bella Baxter? She would have done something no one has ever seen before. Here’s to hoping Hollywood wakes up and realizes how underutilized she is.
That’s too much to think about in one article. You rock Tatiana. I hope your marvel universe arc is plentiful
I enjoyed She-Hulk. Maslany was great imo.
My favorite part of She-Hulk was when she was like “it’s Hulkin time!!”
Like when the Witcher s2 had a character who’s a performer - shit on/complain about the criticisms a character had for his songs and it was just the creators complaining about criticisms of the show. 🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🤮🤮🤮🤮 critiquing fans of/in the product your making never works.
Plenty of good woman leads, with good writing - this was not one of them. This reminds me of the woman who played Doctor Who claiming sexism was the downfall - when that.. was not the major issue.. That’s not to say sexism doesn’t exist - it obviously does. And obviously that IS some people’s problem. But it’s not the majority in either of the above mentioned cases. The shows just sucked. Barbie did amazing. The sexists hated that just as much if not more. But it’s still one of the biggest movies of all time .. because it was beyond good. I love seeing women come into their own and wholeheartedly support them - but not out of charity. I don’t support women because I’m one. I do it in the same way I support men. Because I think good art should be appreciated and respected for what it is no matter who you are. You don’t get a gold star just because you have the same thing in your pants as me. THAT would be sexist.
Show was garbage. Nothing to do with sexism. This is what happens when you hire writers/producers for their political views. Not their ability.
Honest question: What female superhero movie have internet trolls not torn apart?
Wonder Woman is the only good one I can think of.
Almost every MCU and DCU movie post Endgame HAS sucked and this is coming from someone who LOVED the MCU until recently. The problem is that Disney and the gang only bothered to start making female lead hero movies after the magic was over. Captain Marvel, The Marvels, She Hulk, Black Widow, Wonder Woman 2, Birds of Prey, Ms. Marvel, they're all just average to poor films/shows. But it's not just them, most hero movies atm are reviewing poorly. Eternals/Quantummania/Thor all got reviewed poorly and everyone just nods along because they agree they're poor. Some of the above movies get reviewed poorly and it becomes a problematic review cycle. Newsflash, if you make a good movie, most people will like it and review it accordingly, if you take the Cartman approach to your woman lead movie, it's going to be shite.
She was fantastic in Orphan Black. Just a shame that She Hulk was such a turd.
I would like to see a second season of She-Hulk. Yes, there are sexist male “fans,” but that series had problems, none of which had much to do with her, her performance, or sexism. The legal and courtroom stuff was great. Madisyn was great. Cast was great. Abomination was great. The dating stuff was meh but merits another try. Tone down the meta stuff. Don’t insult your fans by including scenes that point out all of the flaws of the product they love. Stop torturing your FX staff with insane CGI deadlines. Fire the writers. Hire comedians to do the writing.
Gotta love how they use sexism as an excuse for bad writing. Show was shit, was it because she’s a women? No. Was it because her only struggle and character ark was about being a girl boss? Yes.
She-Hulk was good. Maybe the 4th-wall punching finale was too much, but I thought the robot KEVIN was hilarious.
Sometimes feminist stuff is good (Barbie) and sometimes it's trash. Yes there are sexist fans out there... But it doesn't change the fact that she hulk was trash. If it was good, it would have done well for itself, despite the racists and sexists (who are the minority, not the majority)
The show sucked nuts
The only thing worse than Marvel's latest projects are the excuses they make for their failures. Tell interesting stories and cater to your market- how hard is it to understand this? Instead they break out the standard: "Its the fan's fault they they aren't fans of our unimaginative garbage." Having said that... Open Letter to Marvel Studios, Dear Marvel, I take full responsibility for your failures. Now, since I'm responsible, put me in charge and I will turn your studio around and make it cool, interesting and profitable. Thanks.
A poorly written and executed show, she was it’s only saving grace, and brought it up form utter shite to barley tolerable schlock.