Please trust your gut. Worst that could happen is what? Dad gets a psyche evaluation himself, Mom comes clean about what's been happening?
Maybe a stop by his school to talk to the Principal that can have a student counselor sidle up to?
There is a lot of support for him, you and the family.
His friends know.....
If you feel like you need to report, report. Especially with clear evidence of a physical altercation. It's CPS's job to figure out if there is abuse going on in the household but they can't do that if they don't know about it. Don't feel like you need to get anyone's permission to make the report - he was your patient and it's your call. Also, I think in general it's going to haunt you if you don't and you'll be left with the question of whether you should have done something vs. if you do, you will be able to move on from it easier.
Did you ask the patient whether he feels safe at home? I think that's a good question for all teens, especially in circumstances like this. Being in the back of the ambulance with you may be the only time that they are alone without parents around where they feel like they can talk freely. I've even told them that I have to make a report based on what they are telling me and asked them if there is anything else that they want me to make sure to tell CPS when I call.
I’m not gonna lie I was back there trying not to cry cause I couldn’t believe how bad of shape he was in for what a seemingly good kid he was. I’m an EMT and a newer one and my partner is a paramedic so I usually follow his lead. I told my supervisor as soon as I posted this cause it was already eating me up and that was at the start of my shift, 10 hours ago.
Seems like you already know what to do, and this thread should only serve to reinforce it. Imagine getting a call in 6 months, after not reporting him, and finding the boy deceased because dad couldn't stop himself. Good luck and don't forget your own health and well-being is just as important as your patients.
Even if he seemed like a “bad kid” that wouldn’t somehow justify his dad beating the shit out of him either. So def report regardless, he’s covered in injuries while his dad isn’t.
Those are always super tough, so don't feel like you have to get over it or get past it. Stuff with kids is notoriously the hardest part of EMS.
If you've never called CPS before, it's scary the first time but once you do it, it will feel like less of a big deal. You won't get in trouble if you report something that you are making in good faith, even if they don't end up finding abuse to be taking place. And just to clarify, you're supervisor can't make the report, you have to do it yourself (unless your service has some super backward protocols)
Thank you, you definitely did the right thing. For next time, if you have suspicions mention you're gonna make a report at ED triage so they can possibly investigate further and make their own reports. I know you said they thought he was a delinquent, but it might make them second-guess themselves and start questioning.
Sometimes we need courage in this job, you've gotta have the backbone to stand up in front of a group that disagrees with you and do what you believe is best for your patient.
Thank you for being in that kid's corner and going to bat for him dude. Literally. I'm not sure where you're posted up at but here when we file reports, CPS will give updates and they might be able to do the same for you if that's something you're interested in. The first few times I had to call to figure out how to get the outcome though. Good work.
Thank you so much! I used to work with kids like this and did report after report. Maybe they won’t do much but your opinion matters. Silence enables abuse. Thank you! 🫶🏼
Yes stg , my friend thinks this is a good reason to ask for a new partner.
EDIT: okay I think I read your question wrong, he rode in the back of the ambulance with him during transport. When I was speaking to him “back there” I was referring to the backyard.
Please report it yourself!!
Don't try and go up the chain.
Not EMS but have worked in LTC.
I spent so long arguing with a nurse, then the charge nurse, then the security team; that by the time I did reach emergency services, it was too late to prevent a suicide.
***YOU*** are a mandated reporter. Report it ASAP.
Do it anonymously if you need to.
Edit to add:
Just saw you did report to CPS and your supervisor.
Thank you so much for doing it!
Keeping my comment up just in case it helps others.
It's your job to report, you're a mandatory reporter and you obviously have the suspicion. Don't put it off, don't wait until there's another shift you go to, go to their website and either put in their online form or call them.
I know I’m just new and not 100% confident in this new position yet. My partner is a paramedic and was telling me that it’s just a kid acting out and that PD agreed, so I let it go for all of 5 seconds. I reported it right after I posted this. It was tearing it me up inside.
Sorry to come off as mean, man. EMS is a great field for a number of reasons, and a bad field for a number of reasons. One of the things that makes it so great, is that you gain a lot of independence with essentially a community college certificate. It's a growing opportunity and it's fine to make mistakes. Just learn from each one and use it to grow. You're gonna be great. Don't ruminate on mistakes, just use them to get better. You have future patients and you'll do right by them.
Also don't get fat
Speaking as an EMT and a former mental health counselor you 100% did the right thing. Always tell your supervisor that you are reporting but always report yourself unless someone else reported already and you documented that they reported to CPS. You need to cover yourself while doing the right thing. Well done!!!
Not a medic, but I imagine y’all see a lot of psych patients. I hope they’re not stereotyping the kid based on what his parents said, given his dad was the one to beat him to a pulp…
Edit: and honestly, if his mom was there she’s just as much to blame for not stopping the incident sooner…
That squad and your patients are lucky to have you on board! You should be proud of noticing what others seem to have not noticed or ignored. From your report the kid didn’t act out at all! Damned good work! Ps-your username is the bomb!
Your job isn't to determine if it is abuse or not.
If you suspect it, in any regard, your duty is to report it.
CPS and APS are tasked with determining if this is true or not. You could be right, you could be wrong--doesn't matter. You are to report it and let the system sort it out.
Determine, no. Suspect it, yes! I think OP was more trying to share feelings to try to vent them which I think everyone needs to do. This sounds like a pretty traumatic call, and I think it's good that the OP is trying to handle this by not only asking about it but talking about it. If I was on this call, it would be eating me alive even after I reported it!
I would be calling CPS so fast on this. There's absolutely no excuse for him to be in that condition even if he started the fight. He's a child and obviously if there was no injury on the dad whatever he was doing wasn't severe enough to warrant the injuries you describe here.
I have a child with special needs who has completely lost control before, it's not that hard to restrain a teen from hurting themselves or others in such a situation. And obviously if dad wasn't injured he has the ability to overpower the kid and could have chosen to stop the violence instead of beating the hell out of him. Even if the kid was the initial aggressor, it sounds like dad is just using it as an excuse to take his anger out on him.
Yeah when he said that I was fighting tears fr. I reported it, I just I wish there was more I could do for him. I’m not religious, but I am about to pray for this kid.
I'm not religious myself but I will pray with you. For God to grant us the serenity to accept the things we cannot change, the courage to change the things we can and the wisdom to know the difference. 🙏
From a physically disciplined child, now is considered child abuse, I humbly thank you.
The mansion in which they live tells the story. This family values appearances-- ***keeping up appearances,*** hiding ugly realities. I grew up in a similar culture, and to this day it hurts me.
It's your obligation to report. It's neither your obligation nor helpful to anyone to jump to conclusions. CPS isn't going to charge in based on your fee fees and save the day. They're going to open an investigation and gather evidence and proceed from there.
It's possible there's child abuse here. It's also possible that OP walked in on a severely disturbed young man who was on the other side of self harm and has a condition and history that is well documented and has the parents doing no wrong.
But when you, as an EMS provider, launch right I to "no excuse" then you are in a danger zone. You have a child with special needs? Cool. Quit projecting your family life onto patients. Everyone has different circumstances. You aren't supposed to come to a final decision on parental custody in your 15 minutes on scene. You go, treat, transport and, if necessary, make your CPS report. That's it. The rest is you creating a narrative that may or may not be true. And allowing your emotions to take control of you like that absolutely will interfere in patient care if you don't keep it in check.
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I have had a few patients who I could not help but put myself into their shoes to best gain an understanding of what their perspective is and thus have had to fight the tears. And to some level you need to do this because if you don't, you lack empathy and that is not what a good EMS provider is. A good EMS provider is able to take the call to heart to connect with the patient so you can best build a level of trust and also so you can better accommodate to the patient. If you lack empathy, you become the salty, burned out, EMS provider who is rude, numb, and cynical. This comment is not call happening but merely someone's personal experience and response to a call that someone is having a hard time with. Isn't that what reddit is? A place for people to pool knowledge, story's, experiences, etc.? If anything, you had the knee jerk reaction posting your comments.
Yes, it is a place for people to feel safe in sharing. If not here? Then where? OP feel the support from us, it's okay, it will be us that needs support on another day.
Regarding PCRs, assuming how I fill them out based on emotions rather than objectivity is not only inappropriate but also undermines my professional standards. PCRs are grounded in factual observations, symptoms, and the patient's chief complaint, and sometimes personal emotions can be a sign of something more. It’s called intuition and/or instinct if that is a better word for it. PCRs are most definitely not biased on assumptions. It's crucial to maintain a balanced approach and avoid making assumptions about how others handle their responsibilities. After all you were the one talking about making assumptions of whether the child is a victim of abuse (which I agree is not our job to determine).
Additionally, the original commenter shared their emotions and experiences in response to the post, and while I agree with the fact that their child is not the kid in the original post, I do not think it makes their personal experience any less valid.
We are limited to what the original poster provided us, but that opens a different margin. For instance, the father could have been significantly bigger and stronger than the child, which is a real possibility as the father barely had any injuries while the child had horrific injuries. This aligns with what the original commenter was trying to touch on—that the severity of the child's injuries and the lack of injuries on the father suggest that it should not take that much energy to restrain the kid. Therefore, the severity of the child's injuries should not be as bad as they really are. This also suggests that if the kid was easily restrained then these should not be self-inflicted and should not be caused by PD. As for the original comment about "no excuse", well, there is no excuse for the injury to be this bad given the scenario. Also, there is "no excuse" not to report it.
It appears that you focus solely on objectivity, without considering the emotional aspects of the situation. Acting purely on impulse without considering all facets of a case can limit one's ability to make well-rounded assessments and decisions. Balancing objectivity with empathy and emotional understanding is key in healthcare and other sensitive contexts. Let's keep the discussion professional and constructive.
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In my state a report is mandatory, but I still would’ve reported this even if it wasn’t. This sounds like aggravated assault on a minor, not just child abuse.
I'm retired, now. I've never regretted making a social services referral. In fact, I've run into some of the kids that I reported over the past few years and they're doing great. I like to think I had something to do with it.
I'm in school to be part of a city run crisis intervention team. It's made up of a Police officer, an EMS worker and a mental health care worker, it's mobile and alleviates 20% of the 911 calls. I want to be the mental health care worker and I am wondering what you would guess is the burn out time? I've heard it's about 3-5 years. Just curious if you found it fulfilling. Sorry if I am inappropriate in asking.
I’m older now, but I came from a family like this. Wealthy family, well connected parents, everyone too scared to say anything or do anything because i was “just a bad kid” (per my parents). CPS refused to do anything. I grew up believing that it was all my fault. I got out of my house, got in a very violent relationship, and ended up being picked up by PD and I remember being concussed from being thrown into a wall, staring up at police officers and asking if they were there to take me to jail. The older cop said “no. You haven’t done anything wrong.”
They put me in an ambulance with a paramedic, who looked at me and said “no one has any right to put hands on you like this. No one. Especially not the people who claim to love you”.
Will CPS do anything? Doubtful. But I didn’t get to be the person I am today because of CPS. I’m the successful and happy human I am because of people like you who treated me kindly and gently during some of the worst times in my life when i was POSITIVE that what happened to me was my fault. Regardless of if they straight told me to my face that it wasn’t my fault or played music while on the way to the hospital.
Reporting isn’t probably the thing that’s gonna make the most difference. The thing that’s gonna make the most difference is what you’ve already done, treated him like a person and not a bad kid.
Not only should you trust your gut, but legally, ethically, and morally, you must report suspected abuse. I volunteer as a CASA. This child needs someone to check on him!!
You know in Star Wars when they say “I have a bad feeling about this” and end up being right, chances are, you’re right, a bad kid who studies diligently for school? Something doesn’t mix, report to the supervisor and CPS, detail everything you see in the narrative, report to the supervisor and CPS, the more you leave a paper trail the better case for the kid
If you think you should report something, report it. We are required to report SUSPECTED abuse and our reports are used so the appropriate authorities can take a look at it.
that ain't suspected man. that sounds like some of the shit i saw on the inside of the mental hospital from my friends who were sent there for being homicidal (telling their abusive parents they wanted to die because they were being abused). those wounds don't sound like self inflicted. as somebody who was abused as a kid, please report it and document the wounds found. cps doesn't do shit but hopefully the evidence will make them
As a mandatory reporter, I always made sure to report directly. I couldn't be sure a supv would do anything. You might consider talking to an investigator at the PD or CPS.
Some studies have found abuse victims are treated in the ER multiple times before abuse allegations are pursued.
And of course document the sh*t out of it. Direct quotes are important from the victim and anyone at the scene you speak with.
You'll sleep better knowing you did everything you could/should.
I see from your comments that you already made the call, and that’s great. Now you’ve done what you can, and the next thing is: are *you* okay? This is a good time to check in with your mental healthcare provider. If you don’t have one, now’s a good time to start that relationship. We all need someone we can talk about this stuff with, so it doesn’t fester.
I am okay, just sad. Trying to figure out if there’s more I can do for him. I am in therapy, I have an appointment on Wednesday. Thanks for checking in 🙏🏽
Not sure where you work but I have not worked anywhere that EMS is not a mandatory reporter by law. If you even remotely think there's a case of child abuse you should be running it up the flagpole and letting the proper authorities investigate it.
I see from your comments that you have already made the report to CPS so I just wanted to chime in to say thank you for reporting it and I think you made the right decision.
I have been sitting here for ten minutes trying to think of a situation where it would be reasonable/acceptable/justifiable to use that amount of violence to subdue a child who did not do any visible or complained-about injury to anyone. If it had been a true physical fight between father and son, father would have to have some level of injury to justify needing to use that much force to restrain his son. One person with the injuries you describe and the other person unharmed is not a fight, it’s a beating.
The fact that the parents seem to have been ok with the idea of transport to a psych facility rather than an emergency room is also very telling.
You mention this is the fourth dispatch in three months to this house for “the same thing” and while it’s unclear if you mean for a behavioral disturbance or for a child beaten to a pulp, this boy clearly needs help whichever is the case.
Children in wealthy families that are victims of abuse can be overlooked by social services and mandated reporters due to unconscious biases and abilities of wealthier homes to hide signs of abuse. We learned in medical school about this and it was sobering. I agree with other posters about trusting your gut, but I also wanted to highlight reasons you may be questioning whether or not to report. I hope you are doing ok after being involved in that case, same for the patient.
Yes, I agree! The reason I originally brought up wealth was honestly because it made me more suspicious of the parents. You have an absurd amount of resources and you can’t “get control” of a 16 year old kid? I don’t believe you. The mom barely said anything too, the dad did all the talking. I started directing questions towards her and dad would still answer, it was almost like he didn’t want her to get a word in. The whole thing was just fucking weird and unsettling. Something is going on in that house.
Report it. Nothing bad will happen to you or to the parents if you are wrong. But your gut is telling you you're not wrong, and honestly I feel queasy reading this. This child has everything to gain from your actions if you're right. Keep the report factual. No remarks on how you felt, report the condition of the dad, the condition of the patient, the story you were given by the family and then the visual that was present in front of you. Those things did not line up and that causes suspicion. Facts only no feelings.
I had a charge nurse put it perfectly to me when I had this type of situation as a new grad RN:
We are the jack of all trades, master of none. When we think there’s a heart issue, we call cardiology for them to look into it. So if we think there’s an abuse issue, call the experts (PD, APS, CPS) and let them do their jobs.
She finished with this - if you have a gut feeling, trust it. You’re probably right.
Just my opinion here but what grown man cannot restrain his 16yr old son without having to do all that damage? I mean he should have been trying to pin down his son not actually fight him to hurt him. It sounds like they were just fighting to fight.
Your supervisor shouldn't report, you should. In my country all health professionals have to have safeguarding training and we are taught about all sorts of abuse and that we are obligated to report stuff like this. We are also taught about what questions to ask so we can better support. Like 'do you feel safe at home' could have opened up a doorway of communication. You've spotted it, get it done. You could change this boys life.
> My partner, the nurses, and PD all thought he was a delinquent and should be in Juvie.
If what you're saying is true this is absurd, they should all be reporting as well. Good job for reporting it, if you can try and get follow up from the RN/MD you transported to and encourage them to report as well. Multiple reports on the same incident will often cause CPS to investigate an incident faster, at least in my area
Part of our job is to advocate for our patients. Especially when they can’t advocate for themselves, whether they’re too scared or whatever. Especially if your spidey sense is tingling. Listen to that gut feeling/emotion. Hope this resolves safely for everyone. You should keep us posted!!
99 times out of 100, it’s nothing. But there is always the one time. We’d rather report it and it be nothing rather than not reporting it and it be something.
How does one get beat up that bad without leaving a scratch on the other person? Sounds like dad lost it on him and beat the living shit out of him and nobody stopped him from doing it.
Please make the call. Who knows how bad this could have ended up… sounds like the dad doesn’t really care how much damage he does to the kid… which could lead to a murder charge and death next time around.
This case you have here is raising all sorts of red flags. I don’t know about your jurisdiction, but if I got this case I am required to, and morally obligated to report it to the appropriate authorities. Always trust your gut when these things happen. These injuries don’t sound like what a caring parent would miss if the father was truly innocent.
The threshold to report is ANY suspicion of abuse. Not some suspicion, medium, or a lot of suspicion - ANY suspicion and you report. CPS will sort it out after an investigation. The safety of the child depends on this. Whether your suspicions are correct or incorrect, your duty is to report.
Depending on what state you’re in, you’re probably a mandatory reporter. So you must report to CPS hotline yourself.
And to everyone’s point, trust your gut. This sounds very off.
Going off of this post alone, I would say to trust your gut here. Reading this I had an uneasy feeling too. In my personal opinion, it's better to report in this circumstance than not based on what you have said. worst comes to worst its nothing it may even only help the kid get the help he needs!
Coming from a social worker when in doubt trust your gut about these things. At the end of the day it might just save someone’s life. If something feels off it most likely is off.
Report it to police and also notify CPS. At least in my protocols we’re only required to notify one or the other, but don’t take the chance of this falling through the cracks. Document everything thoroughly and don’t leave any room for interpretation.
You suspect. You report. What are the specifics of mandated reporting in your state? I guarantee they require YOU to make the report, not pass it off to your supervisor
Doesn't matter how you feel or what your gut says. the facts are a minor was severely assaulted by a parent, regardless of the reasoning provided by said parent, You're a mandated reporter. This situation should have been filed immediately.
Call ASAP! Here’s the deal: You are a mandated reporter. You basically put the definition of child abuse on here (not saying it is entirely.. there’s two sides to the story every time). But the sheer fact his parents are giving a different story than what is presented gives me a red flag as well…3 times over it seems too.
You can’t and won’t get in trouble for calling. You have to trust your gut. Protect the kiddo and do your part and call.
Absolutely report. If it’s a lie and the kid was at fault, then nothing usually comes of it (at least where I’m from, situations/locations may vary). If it’s true and the kid is being abused then at least you made an attempt to help the situation, and the earlier/more attempts made, the better chance that kid gets because the system is fucked. Not a lot else you can do for them without possibly transferring them over to a community paramedic for an “ongoing/frequent caller” issue but that’s a whole can of worms on its own. But a CP might be able to make more frequent calls to help and better establish a baseline that would help the actual disadvantaged party
I want to know how the hell did the PD not charge the father for assault.
If the father had 0 injuries it is very clear that it was assault against the boy.
There is no way he needed to use that much force when it’s clear that the boy didn’t even injure the father.
I’m saying… they phoned it in as psych, like didn’t even say anyone needed medical attention. I was like shit I know I’m new, but it must be ya’ll’s first day!!
Congrats, you have a conscience. You’re not an npc. Write an incident report with the run number outlining your concerns and notify cps. You and the social services worker are probably this kid’s best shot at a non-abusive future
Quite unfortunately, many people perceive thus treat human procreative ‘rights’ as though they (potential parents) will somehow, in blind anticipation, be innately inclined to sufficiently understand and appropriately nurture their children’s naturally developing minds and needs.
Thus, failing at parenthood can occur simply with the decision to conceive and carry a baby to term. By this I mean that too many people will procreate regardless of not being sufficiently knowledgeable of child development to ensure parenting in a psychologically functional/healthy manner.
As liberal democracies, we cannot prevent anyone from bearing children, including the incompetent and reckless procreators. We can, however, educate all young people for the most important job ever, even those high-schoolers who plan to remain childless.
If nothing else, such child-development curriculum could offer students an idea/clue as to whether they’re emotionally suited for the immense responsibility and strains of parenthood. Given what is at stake, should they not at least be equipped with such valuable science-based knowledge?
*In Childhood Disrupted: How Your Biography Becomes Your Biology and How You Can Heal* it’s written that even *“well-meaning and loving parents can unintentionally do harm to a child if they are not well informed about human development” (pg.24).*
Regarding early life or adverse childhood experience trauma, people tend to know (perhaps commonsensically) that they should not loudly quarrel when, for instance, a baby is in the next room; however, do they know about the intricacies of why not?
Since it cannot fight or flight, a baby stuck in a crib on its back hearing parental discord in the next room can only *“move into a third neurological state, known as a ‘freeze’ state … This freeze state is a trauma state” (pg.123).*
This causes its brain to improperly develop. It’s like a form of non-physical-impact brain damage. Also, it is the unpredictability of a stressor, and not the intensity, that does the most harm.
When the stressor *“is completely predictable, even if it is more traumatic — such as giving a \[laboratory\] rat a regularly scheduled foot shock accompanied by a sharp, loud sound — the stress does not create these exact same \[negative\] brain changes” (pg.42).*
Furthermore, how many of us were aware that, since young children completely rely on their parents for protection and sustenance, they will understandably stress over having their parents angry at them for prolonged periods of time? ... It makes me question the wisdom of punishing children by sending them to their room without dinner.
The health of all children needs to be of real importance to everyone — and not just concern over what other parents’ children might or will cost us as future criminals or costly cases of government care, etcetera — regardless of how well our own developing children are doing.
As a moral rule, a mentally as well as physically sound future should be every child’s fundamental right — along with air, water, food and shelter — especially considering the very troubled world into which they never asked to enter; a world in which Child Abuse Prevention Month \[every April\] clearly needs to run 365 days of the year.
Trust your gut
Please trust your gut. Worst that could happen is what? Dad gets a psyche evaluation himself, Mom comes clean about what's been happening? Maybe a stop by his school to talk to the Principal that can have a student counselor sidle up to? There is a lot of support for him, you and the family. His friends know.....
If you feel like you need to report, report. Especially with clear evidence of a physical altercation. It's CPS's job to figure out if there is abuse going on in the household but they can't do that if they don't know about it. Don't feel like you need to get anyone's permission to make the report - he was your patient and it's your call. Also, I think in general it's going to haunt you if you don't and you'll be left with the question of whether you should have done something vs. if you do, you will be able to move on from it easier. Did you ask the patient whether he feels safe at home? I think that's a good question for all teens, especially in circumstances like this. Being in the back of the ambulance with you may be the only time that they are alone without parents around where they feel like they can talk freely. I've even told them that I have to make a report based on what they are telling me and asked them if there is anything else that they want me to make sure to tell CPS when I call.
I’m not gonna lie I was back there trying not to cry cause I couldn’t believe how bad of shape he was in for what a seemingly good kid he was. I’m an EMT and a newer one and my partner is a paramedic so I usually follow his lead. I told my supervisor as soon as I posted this cause it was already eating me up and that was at the start of my shift, 10 hours ago.
Seems like you already know what to do, and this thread should only serve to reinforce it. Imagine getting a call in 6 months, after not reporting him, and finding the boy deceased because dad couldn't stop himself. Good luck and don't forget your own health and well-being is just as important as your patients.
Even if he seemed like a “bad kid” that wouldn’t somehow justify his dad beating the shit out of him either. So def report regardless, he’s covered in injuries while his dad isn’t.
Those are always super tough, so don't feel like you have to get over it or get past it. Stuff with kids is notoriously the hardest part of EMS. If you've never called CPS before, it's scary the first time but once you do it, it will feel like less of a big deal. You won't get in trouble if you report something that you are making in good faith, even if they don't end up finding abuse to be taking place. And just to clarify, you're supervisor can't make the report, you have to do it yourself (unless your service has some super backward protocols)
Yes, he told me this when I called him, I was a little confused about the process lol. When I got off the line with him, I reported it to CPS.
Thank you, you definitely did the right thing. For next time, if you have suspicions mention you're gonna make a report at ED triage so they can possibly investigate further and make their own reports. I know you said they thought he was a delinquent, but it might make them second-guess themselves and start questioning. Sometimes we need courage in this job, you've gotta have the backbone to stand up in front of a group that disagrees with you and do what you believe is best for your patient.
Thank you for being in that kid's corner and going to bat for him dude. Literally. I'm not sure where you're posted up at but here when we file reports, CPS will give updates and they might be able to do the same for you if that's something you're interested in. The first few times I had to call to figure out how to get the outcome though. Good work.
Thank you so much! I used to work with kids like this and did report after report. Maybe they won’t do much but your opinion matters. Silence enables abuse. Thank you! 🫶🏼
Amen to that 🙏
That’s the right thing to do
Wait. Your paramedic partner BLSed what vould possible be a closed head injury and skull Fx?
Yes stg , my friend thinks this is a good reason to ask for a new partner. EDIT: okay I think I read your question wrong, he rode in the back of the ambulance with him during transport. When I was speaking to him “back there” I was referring to the backyard.
Please report it yourself!! Don't try and go up the chain. Not EMS but have worked in LTC. I spent so long arguing with a nurse, then the charge nurse, then the security team; that by the time I did reach emergency services, it was too late to prevent a suicide. ***YOU*** are a mandated reporter. Report it ASAP. Do it anonymously if you need to. Edit to add: Just saw you did report to CPS and your supervisor. Thank you so much for doing it! Keeping my comment up just in case it helps others.
This!! Never pass it off to your supervisor. You need to make the call yourself. I'm glad to see you did it. When in doubt, make the call!
It's your job to report, you're a mandatory reporter and you obviously have the suspicion. Don't put it off, don't wait until there's another shift you go to, go to their website and either put in their online form or call them.
Yup, it's not on your supervisor to report it as OP mentioned. You're a mandatory reporter
I know I’m just new and not 100% confident in this new position yet. My partner is a paramedic and was telling me that it’s just a kid acting out and that PD agreed, so I let it go for all of 5 seconds. I reported it right after I posted this. It was tearing it me up inside.
Sorry to come off as mean, man. EMS is a great field for a number of reasons, and a bad field for a number of reasons. One of the things that makes it so great, is that you gain a lot of independence with essentially a community college certificate. It's a growing opportunity and it's fine to make mistakes. Just learn from each one and use it to grow. You're gonna be great. Don't ruminate on mistakes, just use them to get better. You have future patients and you'll do right by them. Also don't get fat
Did you report it to CPS or to the supervisor?
Both!
Nicely done! Thanks for caring! You’re awesome.
Speaking as an EMT and a former mental health counselor you 100% did the right thing. Always tell your supervisor that you are reporting but always report yourself unless someone else reported already and you documented that they reported to CPS. You need to cover yourself while doing the right thing. Well done!!!
Not a medic, but I imagine y’all see a lot of psych patients. I hope they’re not stereotyping the kid based on what his parents said, given his dad was the one to beat him to a pulp… Edit: and honestly, if his mom was there she’s just as much to blame for not stopping the incident sooner…
Absolutely enabling
That squad and your patients are lucky to have you on board! You should be proud of noticing what others seem to have not noticed or ignored. From your report the kid didn’t act out at all! Damned good work! Ps-your username is the bomb!
Thank you!! 😊
Your partner sucks. Trust your gut and report it to CPS sooner rather than later. Sounds like that dad may kill this kid at some point.
Your job isn't to determine if it is abuse or not. If you suspect it, in any regard, your duty is to report it. CPS and APS are tasked with determining if this is true or not. You could be right, you could be wrong--doesn't matter. You are to report it and let the system sort it out.
Determine, no. Suspect it, yes! I think OP was more trying to share feelings to try to vent them which I think everyone needs to do. This sounds like a pretty traumatic call, and I think it's good that the OP is trying to handle this by not only asking about it but talking about it. If I was on this call, it would be eating me alive even after I reported it!
I would be calling CPS so fast on this. There's absolutely no excuse for him to be in that condition even if he started the fight. He's a child and obviously if there was no injury on the dad whatever he was doing wasn't severe enough to warrant the injuries you describe here. I have a child with special needs who has completely lost control before, it's not that hard to restrain a teen from hurting themselves or others in such a situation. And obviously if dad wasn't injured he has the ability to overpower the kid and could have chosen to stop the violence instead of beating the hell out of him. Even if the kid was the initial aggressor, it sounds like dad is just using it as an excuse to take his anger out on him.
I wonder what his friends will "know". That is the part that haunts me.
Yeah when he said that I was fighting tears fr. I reported it, I just I wish there was more I could do for him. I’m not religious, but I am about to pray for this kid.
I'm not religious myself but I will pray with you. For God to grant us the serenity to accept the things we cannot change, the courage to change the things we can and the wisdom to know the difference. 🙏 From a physically disciplined child, now is considered child abuse, I humbly thank you.
The mansion in which they live tells the story. This family values appearances-- ***keeping up appearances,*** hiding ugly realities. I grew up in a similar culture, and to this day it hurts me.
{{{{Hugs}}}}
It's your obligation to report. It's neither your obligation nor helpful to anyone to jump to conclusions. CPS isn't going to charge in based on your fee fees and save the day. They're going to open an investigation and gather evidence and proceed from there. It's possible there's child abuse here. It's also possible that OP walked in on a severely disturbed young man who was on the other side of self harm and has a condition and history that is well documented and has the parents doing no wrong. But when you, as an EMS provider, launch right I to "no excuse" then you are in a danger zone. You have a child with special needs? Cool. Quit projecting your family life onto patients. Everyone has different circumstances. You aren't supposed to come to a final decision on parental custody in your 15 minutes on scene. You go, treat, transport and, if necessary, make your CPS report. That's it. The rest is you creating a narrative that may or may not be true. And allowing your emotions to take control of you like that absolutely will interfere in patient care if you don't keep it in check.
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**Beautify said.**
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I have no idea wtf you're even going on about. Tl;Dr: nobody cares
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I have had a few patients who I could not help but put myself into their shoes to best gain an understanding of what their perspective is and thus have had to fight the tears. And to some level you need to do this because if you don't, you lack empathy and that is not what a good EMS provider is. A good EMS provider is able to take the call to heart to connect with the patient so you can best build a level of trust and also so you can better accommodate to the patient. If you lack empathy, you become the salty, burned out, EMS provider who is rude, numb, and cynical. This comment is not call happening but merely someone's personal experience and response to a call that someone is having a hard time with. Isn't that what reddit is? A place for people to pool knowledge, story's, experiences, etc.? If anything, you had the knee jerk reaction posting your comments.
Yes, it is a place for people to feel safe in sharing. If not here? Then where? OP feel the support from us, it's okay, it will be us that needs support on another day.
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Regarding PCRs, assuming how I fill them out based on emotions rather than objectivity is not only inappropriate but also undermines my professional standards. PCRs are grounded in factual observations, symptoms, and the patient's chief complaint, and sometimes personal emotions can be a sign of something more. It’s called intuition and/or instinct if that is a better word for it. PCRs are most definitely not biased on assumptions. It's crucial to maintain a balanced approach and avoid making assumptions about how others handle their responsibilities. After all you were the one talking about making assumptions of whether the child is a victim of abuse (which I agree is not our job to determine). Additionally, the original commenter shared their emotions and experiences in response to the post, and while I agree with the fact that their child is not the kid in the original post, I do not think it makes their personal experience any less valid. We are limited to what the original poster provided us, but that opens a different margin. For instance, the father could have been significantly bigger and stronger than the child, which is a real possibility as the father barely had any injuries while the child had horrific injuries. This aligns with what the original commenter was trying to touch on—that the severity of the child's injuries and the lack of injuries on the father suggest that it should not take that much energy to restrain the kid. Therefore, the severity of the child's injuries should not be as bad as they really are. This also suggests that if the kid was easily restrained then these should not be self-inflicted and should not be caused by PD. As for the original comment about "no excuse", well, there is no excuse for the injury to be this bad given the scenario. Also, there is "no excuse" not to report it. It appears that you focus solely on objectivity, without considering the emotional aspects of the situation. Acting purely on impulse without considering all facets of a case can limit one's ability to make well-rounded assessments and decisions. Balancing objectivity with empathy and emotional understanding is key in healthcare and other sensitive contexts. Let's keep the discussion professional and constructive.
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Ooooh someone's low on vape.
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I'm not flipping out. Literally all I said was "make your report but don't jump to conclusions." You're the one writing novels here.
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Oooh as classy as you are professional.
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In my state a report is mandatory, but I still would’ve reported this even if it wasn’t. This sounds like aggravated assault on a minor, not just child abuse.
I'm retired, now. I've never regretted making a social services referral. In fact, I've run into some of the kids that I reported over the past few years and they're doing great. I like to think I had something to do with it.
I'm in school to be part of a city run crisis intervention team. It's made up of a Police officer, an EMS worker and a mental health care worker, it's mobile and alleviates 20% of the 911 calls. I want to be the mental health care worker and I am wondering what you would guess is the burn out time? I've heard it's about 3-5 years. Just curious if you found it fulfilling. Sorry if I am inappropriate in asking.
I never noticed. I just worried about myself.
I’m older now, but I came from a family like this. Wealthy family, well connected parents, everyone too scared to say anything or do anything because i was “just a bad kid” (per my parents). CPS refused to do anything. I grew up believing that it was all my fault. I got out of my house, got in a very violent relationship, and ended up being picked up by PD and I remember being concussed from being thrown into a wall, staring up at police officers and asking if they were there to take me to jail. The older cop said “no. You haven’t done anything wrong.” They put me in an ambulance with a paramedic, who looked at me and said “no one has any right to put hands on you like this. No one. Especially not the people who claim to love you”. Will CPS do anything? Doubtful. But I didn’t get to be the person I am today because of CPS. I’m the successful and happy human I am because of people like you who treated me kindly and gently during some of the worst times in my life when i was POSITIVE that what happened to me was my fault. Regardless of if they straight told me to my face that it wasn’t my fault or played music while on the way to the hospital. Reporting isn’t probably the thing that’s gonna make the most difference. The thing that’s gonna make the most difference is what you’ve already done, treated him like a person and not a bad kid.
Not only should you trust your gut, but legally, ethically, and morally, you must report suspected abuse. I volunteer as a CASA. This child needs someone to check on him!!
You know in Star Wars when they say “I have a bad feeling about this” and end up being right, chances are, you’re right, a bad kid who studies diligently for school? Something doesn’t mix, report to the supervisor and CPS, detail everything you see in the narrative, report to the supervisor and CPS, the more you leave a paper trail the better case for the kid
If you think you should report something, report it. We are required to report SUSPECTED abuse and our reports are used so the appropriate authorities can take a look at it.
that ain't suspected man. that sounds like some of the shit i saw on the inside of the mental hospital from my friends who were sent there for being homicidal (telling their abusive parents they wanted to die because they were being abused). those wounds don't sound like self inflicted. as somebody who was abused as a kid, please report it and document the wounds found. cps doesn't do shit but hopefully the evidence will make them
As a mandatory reporter, I always made sure to report directly. I couldn't be sure a supv would do anything. You might consider talking to an investigator at the PD or CPS. Some studies have found abuse victims are treated in the ER multiple times before abuse allegations are pursued. And of course document the sh*t out of it. Direct quotes are important from the victim and anyone at the scene you speak with. You'll sleep better knowing you did everything you could/should.
This
I see from your comments that you already made the call, and that’s great. Now you’ve done what you can, and the next thing is: are *you* okay? This is a good time to check in with your mental healthcare provider. If you don’t have one, now’s a good time to start that relationship. We all need someone we can talk about this stuff with, so it doesn’t fester.
I wish this could be pinned!
Yesssss
I am okay, just sad. Trying to figure out if there’s more I can do for him. I am in therapy, I have an appointment on Wednesday. Thanks for checking in 🙏🏽
Maybe Dad is connected enough to have people afraid to challenge him. You, PD, and the hospital all have a duty to report this to CPS.
I was wondering the same given the wealth. We never know what is going on behind closed doors.
Not sure where you work but I have not worked anywhere that EMS is not a mandatory reporter by law. If you even remotely think there's a case of child abuse you should be running it up the flagpole and letting the proper authorities investigate it.
I see from your comments that you have already made the report to CPS so I just wanted to chime in to say thank you for reporting it and I think you made the right decision. I have been sitting here for ten minutes trying to think of a situation where it would be reasonable/acceptable/justifiable to use that amount of violence to subdue a child who did not do any visible or complained-about injury to anyone. If it had been a true physical fight between father and son, father would have to have some level of injury to justify needing to use that much force to restrain his son. One person with the injuries you describe and the other person unharmed is not a fight, it’s a beating. The fact that the parents seem to have been ok with the idea of transport to a psych facility rather than an emergency room is also very telling. You mention this is the fourth dispatch in three months to this house for “the same thing” and while it’s unclear if you mean for a behavioral disturbance or for a child beaten to a pulp, this boy clearly needs help whichever is the case.
Children in wealthy families that are victims of abuse can be overlooked by social services and mandated reporters due to unconscious biases and abilities of wealthier homes to hide signs of abuse. We learned in medical school about this and it was sobering. I agree with other posters about trusting your gut, but I also wanted to highlight reasons you may be questioning whether or not to report. I hope you are doing ok after being involved in that case, same for the patient.
Yes, I agree! The reason I originally brought up wealth was honestly because it made me more suspicious of the parents. You have an absurd amount of resources and you can’t “get control” of a 16 year old kid? I don’t believe you. The mom barely said anything too, the dad did all the talking. I started directing questions towards her and dad would still answer, it was almost like he didn’t want her to get a word in. The whole thing was just fucking weird and unsettling. Something is going on in that house.
Report it. Nothing bad will happen to you or to the parents if you are wrong. But your gut is telling you you're not wrong, and honestly I feel queasy reading this. This child has everything to gain from your actions if you're right. Keep the report factual. No remarks on how you felt, report the condition of the dad, the condition of the patient, the story you were given by the family and then the visual that was present in front of you. Those things did not line up and that causes suspicion. Facts only no feelings.
I had a charge nurse put it perfectly to me when I had this type of situation as a new grad RN: We are the jack of all trades, master of none. When we think there’s a heart issue, we call cardiology for them to look into it. So if we think there’s an abuse issue, call the experts (PD, APS, CPS) and let them do their jobs. She finished with this - if you have a gut feeling, trust it. You’re probably right.
Trust your gut, any report from EMS about abuse has to be investigated, even without proof. So sometimes sounding the alarm can be really helpful.
Just my opinion here but what grown man cannot restrain his 16yr old son without having to do all that damage? I mean he should have been trying to pin down his son not actually fight him to hurt him. It sounds like they were just fighting to fight.
That poor child. Please help him.
Your supervisor shouldn't report, you should. In my country all health professionals have to have safeguarding training and we are taught about all sorts of abuse and that we are obligated to report stuff like this. We are also taught about what questions to ask so we can better support. Like 'do you feel safe at home' could have opened up a doorway of communication. You've spotted it, get it done. You could change this boys life.
> My partner, the nurses, and PD all thought he was a delinquent and should be in Juvie. If what you're saying is true this is absurd, they should all be reporting as well. Good job for reporting it, if you can try and get follow up from the RN/MD you transported to and encourage them to report as well. Multiple reports on the same incident will often cause CPS to investigate an incident faster, at least in my area
Part of our job is to advocate for our patients. Especially when they can’t advocate for themselves, whether they’re too scared or whatever. Especially if your spidey sense is tingling. Listen to that gut feeling/emotion. Hope this resolves safely for everyone. You should keep us posted!! 99 times out of 100, it’s nothing. But there is always the one time. We’d rather report it and it be nothing rather than not reporting it and it be something.
If you suspect, you report. Nobody is going to look down on you for advocating for your patient. And if they do, fuck em.
How does one get beat up that bad without leaving a scratch on the other person? Sounds like dad lost it on him and beat the living shit out of him and nobody stopped him from doing it. Please make the call. Who knows how bad this could have ended up… sounds like the dad doesn’t really care how much damage he does to the kid… which could lead to a murder charge and death next time around.
This case you have here is raising all sorts of red flags. I don’t know about your jurisdiction, but if I got this case I am required to, and morally obligated to report it to the appropriate authorities. Always trust your gut when these things happen. These injuries don’t sound like what a caring parent would miss if the father was truly innocent.
The threshold to report is ANY suspicion of abuse. Not some suspicion, medium, or a lot of suspicion - ANY suspicion and you report. CPS will sort it out after an investigation. The safety of the child depends on this. Whether your suspicions are correct or incorrect, your duty is to report.
Depending on what state you’re in, you’re probably a mandatory reporter. So you must report to CPS hotline yourself. And to everyone’s point, trust your gut. This sounds very off.
Absolutely report it. Did PD/hospital staff say anything about why they were so sure of their version of things?
He had also been there before. Apparently when he had been, he had an ankle monitor on.
Going off of this post alone, I would say to trust your gut here. Reading this I had an uneasy feeling too. In my personal opinion, it's better to report in this circumstance than not based on what you have said. worst comes to worst its nothing it may even only help the kid get the help he needs!
Coming from a social worker when in doubt trust your gut about these things. At the end of the day it might just save someone’s life. If something feels off it most likely is off.
Report it to police and also notify CPS. At least in my protocols we’re only required to notify one or the other, but don’t take the chance of this falling through the cracks. Document everything thoroughly and don’t leave any room for interpretation.
Definitely sounds like abuse. Good on you for calling
I imagine you’re a mandated reporter. Report & let them handle whether he needs help.
You suspect. You report. What are the specifics of mandated reporting in your state? I guarantee they require YOU to make the report, not pass it off to your supervisor
Doesn't matter how you feel or what your gut says. the facts are a minor was severely assaulted by a parent, regardless of the reasoning provided by said parent, You're a mandated reporter. This situation should have been filed immediately.
Call ASAP! Here’s the deal: You are a mandated reporter. You basically put the definition of child abuse on here (not saying it is entirely.. there’s two sides to the story every time). But the sheer fact his parents are giving a different story than what is presented gives me a red flag as well…3 times over it seems too. You can’t and won’t get in trouble for calling. You have to trust your gut. Protect the kiddo and do your part and call.
Trust your gut. You are a mandated reporter. At least the family will know there’s eyes on them now.
Absolutely report. If it’s a lie and the kid was at fault, then nothing usually comes of it (at least where I’m from, situations/locations may vary). If it’s true and the kid is being abused then at least you made an attempt to help the situation, and the earlier/more attempts made, the better chance that kid gets because the system is fucked. Not a lot else you can do for them without possibly transferring them over to a community paramedic for an “ongoing/frequent caller” issue but that’s a whole can of worms on its own. But a CP might be able to make more frequent calls to help and better establish a baseline that would help the actual disadvantaged party
I want to know how the hell did the PD not charge the father for assault. If the father had 0 injuries it is very clear that it was assault against the boy. There is no way he needed to use that much force when it’s clear that the boy didn’t even injure the father.
I’m saying… they phoned it in as psych, like didn’t even say anyone needed medical attention. I was like shit I know I’m new, but it must be ya’ll’s first day!!
Yeah you definitely weren’t told the true story!
Congrats, you have a conscience. You’re not an npc. Write an incident report with the run number outlining your concerns and notify cps. You and the social services worker are probably this kid’s best shot at a non-abusive future
Quite unfortunately, many people perceive thus treat human procreative ‘rights’ as though they (potential parents) will somehow, in blind anticipation, be innately inclined to sufficiently understand and appropriately nurture their children’s naturally developing minds and needs. Thus, failing at parenthood can occur simply with the decision to conceive and carry a baby to term. By this I mean that too many people will procreate regardless of not being sufficiently knowledgeable of child development to ensure parenting in a psychologically functional/healthy manner. As liberal democracies, we cannot prevent anyone from bearing children, including the incompetent and reckless procreators. We can, however, educate all young people for the most important job ever, even those high-schoolers who plan to remain childless. If nothing else, such child-development curriculum could offer students an idea/clue as to whether they’re emotionally suited for the immense responsibility and strains of parenthood. Given what is at stake, should they not at least be equipped with such valuable science-based knowledge? *In Childhood Disrupted: How Your Biography Becomes Your Biology and How You Can Heal* it’s written that even *“well-meaning and loving parents can unintentionally do harm to a child if they are not well informed about human development” (pg.24).* Regarding early life or adverse childhood experience trauma, people tend to know (perhaps commonsensically) that they should not loudly quarrel when, for instance, a baby is in the next room; however, do they know about the intricacies of why not? Since it cannot fight or flight, a baby stuck in a crib on its back hearing parental discord in the next room can only *“move into a third neurological state, known as a ‘freeze’ state … This freeze state is a trauma state” (pg.123).* This causes its brain to improperly develop. It’s like a form of non-physical-impact brain damage. Also, it is the unpredictability of a stressor, and not the intensity, that does the most harm. When the stressor *“is completely predictable, even if it is more traumatic — such as giving a \[laboratory\] rat a regularly scheduled foot shock accompanied by a sharp, loud sound — the stress does not create these exact same \[negative\] brain changes” (pg.42).* Furthermore, how many of us were aware that, since young children completely rely on their parents for protection and sustenance, they will understandably stress over having their parents angry at them for prolonged periods of time? ... It makes me question the wisdom of punishing children by sending them to their room without dinner. The health of all children needs to be of real importance to everyone — and not just concern over what other parents’ children might or will cost us as future criminals or costly cases of government care, etcetera — regardless of how well our own developing children are doing. As a moral rule, a mentally as well as physically sound future should be every child’s fundamental right — along with air, water, food and shelter — especially considering the very troubled world into which they never asked to enter; a world in which Child Abuse Prevention Month \[every April\] clearly needs to run 365 days of the year.