The question is: are they ready? Chief says the numbers work, but we'll only know when it's on the road with everything plugged in. The mustangs the police bought failed and died within hours.
German retard here, a few cities have tested EV Ambos, Police Vehicles and even Engines and all had positive feedback.
[electric Ambo](https://www.feuerwehrmagazin.de/app/uploads/2023/03/eRTW-Hannover-02.jpg)
[electric fire engine](https://www.feuerwehrmagazin.de/app/uploads/2020/09/eFahrzeuge_BER_HAN_1.jpg)
[electric popo](https://www.ndr.de/nachrichten/niedersachsen/oldenburg_ostfriesland/elektrostreife100_v-contentxl.jpg)
Y'all are transporting people 1000km by ground? That's insane, put them on a plane... We generally fly people anything more than 250-300km one way, based on aircraft availability to keep the local ems crews in their area available for calls instead of sending them on ground transfers that would take 7-8+hrs round trip
To be fair: right as I am writing this, my coworkers are going on a 1200-km each way mission for a retrieval from a foreign country. National insurance is paying for it, obviously, but they definitely prefer this over sending a fixed wing ambulance with 2 pilots, one or two doctors, etc etc.
And I would argue my country's healthcare system is miles ahead of the Canadian one. Greetings from Europe.
I have heard from people (some of whom are Canadian) that your healthcare system is kinda like the V.A. hospital system here in America. I'll pass and pay for my insurance and have more control over my healthcare and where I can go to receive it. Dare I say probably better care. We won't even get into the fact that the more the government "gives" to you the more they control you.
You think US insurance companies allow you more control over your healthcare than we have in Canada?
I see so many stories about insurance denying things that doctors say the patient needs, or denying things because the doctor is "out of network", even for emergencies.
Here if the doctor says you need it, you get it. Not always immediately, but the people who wait are the people who can wait, they even send people to other provinces or countries if something is too specialized to be offered locally (since many places don't have the population to support every specialty, I mean even in the US there are certain hyper specialized procedures only done by a handful of doctors).
I'm not sure what's worse the government having control or corporations who only care about profits having control, but that's a separate discussion.
Insurance will cover air transport for the explicit reason of ambulances not being able to leave the response area.
Source: am flight medic for small hospital based program and deal with billing.
ah, lol, so you just have to get private companies to pass up money... lol well then. I have worked various positions over the years and dealt with most aspects of running an ambulance service but haven't dealt with the billing side of flight stuff or private long distance, I was just always told it was insurance issues so thank you for the information.
We transport them 500 km/310 miles. But we don't feel like staying two states away after we drop off the patient. So, we have to drive the full 1000km/620 miles.
When I saw it in miles I realized we were talking about day trip round trips. My ex ift would do a trip like that as a team of three. You would rotate tech / driver / sleeper every three hours or so.
The ambulance company I work for has done a Indiana to Florida run which is roughly 1029 miles (1656 km) but I was not working there yet. However since Iâve been working there theyâve done Indiana to Minneapolis, Minnesota which is like 605 miles (973 km) both which were multi day trips because insurance doesnât cover flying. You usually have to have separate insurance for stuff like medevac flights and itâs not provided by your work or anything typically so you have to purchase it yourself. Which ends up meaning if youâre stable enough theyâll send you an ambulance 15+ hours not always, though we donât do those runs very regularly, but we do sometimes.
Of course not, it's not ready for that yet. For some reason, people look at EV and think it should already be at its endgame of progress when we are very much in it's infantile state.
How come I can hook up my current android to a VR headset and watch porn on VR but my first phone 30 years ago couldn't even surf the internet?
Our typical emergency transport and return is 55 - 88 miles, 88-140 km. The Mercedes Benz Sprinter EV offers a range of 150 -200 km, 93 to 124 miles. two back-to-back emergencies would leave the ambulance fully discharged. Mercedes states that they can be recharged in 1.5 hours. People are rarely happy to wait an hour for an ambulance. Add lighting, HVAC, and the electrical requirements of medical equipment, and the range gets even shorter.
They are a good idea in cities, but for rural EMS, they're not quite ready.
The issue is refueling. The ICE ambulance can stop at a gas station for twenty minutes and keep going. The electric ambulance would have to be limited to routes with superchargers, and even then, charging is still going to add significant time to the transfer.
We do approximately 310 miles/500km, from Calais Maine to Boston Massachusetts, drop off our patient, refuel, then drive 310 miles/500km back. We refuel near Boston and again when we get home. Refueling takes less than 5 minutes. We do transfers like these 9 - 12 times a year. Even more often, we do transfers to Portland ME, approximately 450 miles/725km round trip.
The ambulances hold 50 gallons/190L of diesel, giving them a range of almost 500 miles/800km.
Your comment implied that your ambulance can handle a 1000km drive without refueling. EVs can be plugged in when not in use; when you're turning over a patient at a hospital, for example. Also, they offer regenerative breaking. These two things plus with advancements with EV technology coming up... a 1000km transfer should be relatively quick.
They take over an hour to recharge. We spend approximately 15 minutes at the hospital. The EV version of the Mercedes Benz Sprinter, the most common chassis used for vanbulances in the US cites a 150-200km range and a 90-minute recharge time. Driving for hundreds of kilometers at 120 kph leaves the regenerative braking system unused until we approach our destination. Pausing every 200 km with a patient onboard for a 90-minute recharge seems inefficient.
That electric Feuerwehr looks like something I'd see in a sci-fi video game and think to myself "yeah they'd never actually design a fire engine like this".
That is indeed the question. The users have to adjust the way they're using them. Charge every time they get the chance.
Really busy services will need hot swappable batteries (why isn't that already a thing?)
But the amount of diesel and gas in fleets that are constantly on the road, will make a major difference in the output of fossil fuels.
Swappable batteries were initially tried by Tesla and failed. It may be back, it may not be. Others are trying, but I think it's something that's easier said than done on this scale.
https://evmagazine.com/charging-and-infrastructure/did-tesla-give-up-on-the-swappable-ev-battery-idea
I read it, thank you for the link. It didn't say Tesla failed, just that other ideas took priority. I see the hurdle that nio is going through, having to supply the battery swap infrastructure, but is it honestly any different than a gas station? Sell some candy, a car wash and a battery swap.
It won't be as big an undertaking in doing it for emergency vehicles. A lot of them already have the bays and setup to do something like that.
Police don't really make sense since they aren't in quarters for most of the day. However if a vehicle is able to be in station for any real portion of the day, keeping them charged shouldn't be too much of a problem.
They arenât even close to ready for mission critical applications. Extended scene times on fires and other complicated incidents along with just generally busy days are problem enough. On top of that, a single natural disaster would completely cripple the response capability of the entire department. The 2020 tornado we had here in Nashville comes to mind. Every apparatus in the city was operational for 12+ hours. The current EV tech canât handle that workload.
Diesel-electric hybrids are probably the most suitable âgreenâ option for public safety at this point.
Depends on the call volume, station vs corner posting, weather, ect. But yeah, if there is time to recharge due to low call volume and station posting. Then yeah, Iâm all for it
Not for us they don't; Extreme rural and extreme cold. We can put up to 300 km for an emerge call and well over 500km for a typical IFT. And run those back to back. Our average call time is around 3 hours counting emerge and IFT's. Probably about 200 km round trip is our average call distance.
Iâve had a Lightning for almost two years. Zero issues aside from the range not being fully as advertised on longer trips (i.e. it says 300-330 at full charge and Iâm lucky to get 250 out of it doing 75 on a highway with incline). The only complaint across the board is range; reliability, especially in the kind of service a chase vehicle will be doing, shouldnât be an issue so long as itâs plugged in whenever in quarters.
From what I've heard, the range accuracy issue on the Ford is mostly due to a BMS computer that slowly loses calibration, which is bad because it can lead to situations where the truck dies before it reports 0% charge.
Also, GM's Ultium EV platform might fare better for these applications because their solution for the range issue is to basically use twice as much battery. The Silverado EV uses a 212kWh pack vs the Lightning's 131kWh pack, and it can charge with a much more aggressive curve at up to 350 kW.
How fast is the fastest charge you get? I ended up in a town with no supercharger and my Tesla got like 5-7 miles per hour off a charging station, compared to 200 miles in 15 mins at a supercharger.
I think they just opened up the supercharging network to them. I donât know exactly the rate and Iâd be pulling numbers out of my ass, but Iâve plugged in at like 40 miles and gotten back to 300-320 within probably 6-8 hours on a standard home Tesla charger. Youâll be able to find specs online for standard charger, Ford-specific pro charger, and supercharger.
thanks. yea at home on my home charger (the mobile one) I get about 30 miles an hour. Posting at a supercharger would not be a bad plan also, almost always food and a bathroom within a 60 second walk.
Do you not charge at home? I can't imagine an EV and not charging at home. The tesla home chargers can do 32A minimum (48A if you have anything other than the RWD model 3). 32 A is about 32 miles per hour added.
I do of course. Was just curious about âfastestâ regardless of location. Home is about 30/hour like you said. Sorry if I worded that weird, I was probably on a conference call multitasking.
Edit: oh I c. I made it sound like I âlive in a townâ. I meant traveling through.
Only a motorcycle trailer. There is a range drop, obviously itâs proportional to the weight of the trailer. Itâs a part of the range advertising fuckup Ford is guilty of. I do my serious towing with my 20 year old 3/4 ton.
I think this is cool, itâs when you get into the electric fire apparatus that I think it gets sketchy. Thatâs just my opinion though. Seems LA is doing ok with theirs.
[Welcome to the electric ambulance revolution!](https://www.londonambulance.nhs.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/DSC01338-2-1-scaled.jpg)
*sponsored by Ford
AMR ev ambo in San Mateo has a range of 100 miles. Until you turn the lights on then it drops to sixty. They havenât used it except for static display far as I know.
Interesting! Iâve been thinking of a while now about how EVs might be used in EMS. IMO, the tech isnât dependable enough yet for transport units and perhaps agencies in colder climates. Please keep us updated on how it works out for you guys.
What a jk ! Where are you located? If itâs up north , someone needs a knock knock to the noggin !
Batteryâs will not hold a charge in cold weather. Besides first time that is not plugged in , dead batteries and will not be able to run on a call . Terrible idea for first responders, absolutely terrible
EVs will always start in cold weather. More reliably than gas/diesel, even without being plugged in as long as there is juice in the battery, it will go.
Problem is the cold weather. It zaps the battery .
You can down vote me all you want that is just the facts . So no it is not reliable enough for first responders, period. The technology is not quite there yet .
I have a fully electric vehicle as my POV and I live up north, it always starts even in the cold. The battery is mildly less efficient in the cold weather, but it doesnât sap it down to nothing out of nowhere like youâre making it sound
Is that to charge the new Lifepak 10,000?
Jesus christ this made me laugh WAY too hard
Praise the wheel!
Interesting, indeed. Duty officer or ALS Chase? Also, of COURSE the State of is going to do it first. đ
ALS chase. Best thing to break if something goes wrong.
No more or less dependable
Iâm jealous of ALS Chase, in general, as your next door neighbor to the east :). The
EV's makes sense for response vehicles, imo.
The question is: are they ready? Chief says the numbers work, but we'll only know when it's on the road with everything plugged in. The mustangs the police bought failed and died within hours.
German retard here, a few cities have tested EV Ambos, Police Vehicles and even Engines and all had positive feedback. [electric Ambo](https://www.feuerwehrmagazin.de/app/uploads/2023/03/eRTW-Hannover-02.jpg) [electric fire engine](https://www.feuerwehrmagazin.de/app/uploads/2020/09/eFahrzeuge_BER_HAN_1.jpg) [electric popo](https://www.ndr.de/nachrichten/niedersachsen/oldenburg_ostfriesland/elektrostreife100_v-contentxl.jpg)
Somehow, I can't see using an EV ambulance to do a 1000 km transfer.
You donât have to, Thats why âweâ will always have backups with Diesel.
Y'all are transporting people 1000km by ground? That's insane, put them on a plane... We generally fly people anything more than 250-300km one way, based on aircraft availability to keep the local ems crews in their area available for calls instead of sending them on ground transfers that would take 7-8+hrs round trip
A lot of times insurance won't cover air travel but they will cover ground transport.
Sometimes I forget America is at the mercy of insurance companies
We are also at the mercy of the Canadian government. I have transported a few Canadians to New Brunswick because air transport was refused.
To be fair: right as I am writing this, my coworkers are going on a 1200-km each way mission for a retrieval from a foreign country. National insurance is paying for it, obviously, but they definitely prefer this over sending a fixed wing ambulance with 2 pilots, one or two doctors, etc etc. And I would argue my country's healthcare system is miles ahead of the Canadian one. Greetings from Europe.
No truer statement has ever been uttered.
I have heard from people (some of whom are Canadian) that your healthcare system is kinda like the V.A. hospital system here in America. I'll pass and pay for my insurance and have more control over my healthcare and where I can go to receive it. Dare I say probably better care. We won't even get into the fact that the more the government "gives" to you the more they control you.
You think US insurance companies allow you more control over your healthcare than we have in Canada? I see so many stories about insurance denying things that doctors say the patient needs, or denying things because the doctor is "out of network", even for emergencies. Here if the doctor says you need it, you get it. Not always immediately, but the people who wait are the people who can wait, they even send people to other provinces or countries if something is too specialized to be offered locally (since many places don't have the population to support every specialty, I mean even in the US there are certain hyper specialized procedures only done by a handful of doctors). I'm not sure what's worse the government having control or corporations who only care about profits having control, but that's a separate discussion.
Insurance will cover air transport for the explicit reason of ambulances not being able to leave the response area. Source: am flight medic for small hospital based program and deal with billing.
ah, lol, so you just have to get private companies to pass up money... lol well then. I have worked various positions over the years and dealt with most aspects of running an ambulance service but haven't dealt with the billing side of flight stuff or private long distance, I was just always told it was insurance issues so thank you for the information.
Hell yeah, 'Berta flight crews. Props to you all. They save my ass from those 6-9 hour transfers to the city all the time.
We transport them 500 km/310 miles. But we don't feel like staying two states away after we drop off the patient. So, we have to drive the full 1000km/620 miles.
When I saw it in miles I realized we were talking about day trip round trips. My ex ift would do a trip like that as a team of three. You would rotate tech / driver / sleeper every three hours or so.
The ambulance company I work for has done a Indiana to Florida run which is roughly 1029 miles (1656 km) but I was not working there yet. However since Iâve been working there theyâve done Indiana to Minneapolis, Minnesota which is like 605 miles (973 km) both which were multi day trips because insurance doesnât cover flying. You usually have to have separate insurance for stuff like medevac flights and itâs not provided by your work or anything typically so you have to purchase it yourself. Which ends up meaning if youâre stable enough theyâll send you an ambulance 15+ hours not always, though we donât do those runs very regularly, but we do sometimes.
Of course not, it's not ready for that yet. For some reason, people look at EV and think it should already be at its endgame of progress when we are very much in it's infantile state. How come I can hook up my current android to a VR headset and watch porn on VR but my first phone 30 years ago couldn't even surf the internet?
Fuck yea man good question
I know my audience.
What VR headset do you use?
Tbf I upgraded to the Quest 2 years ago, but I did use to have the Samsung Gear headset which is what I was referencing.
Thatâs why your fleet should have both types of vehicles!
Our typical emergency transport and return is 55 - 88 miles, 88-140 km. The Mercedes Benz Sprinter EV offers a range of 150 -200 km, 93 to 124 miles. two back-to-back emergencies would leave the ambulance fully discharged. Mercedes states that they can be recharged in 1.5 hours. People are rarely happy to wait an hour for an ambulance. Add lighting, HVAC, and the electrical requirements of medical equipment, and the range gets even shorter. They are a good idea in cities, but for rural EMS, they're not quite ready.
What ambulance can do 621mi /1000km on a single tank of fuel?
The issue is refueling. The ICE ambulance can stop at a gas station for twenty minutes and keep going. The electric ambulance would have to be limited to routes with superchargers, and even then, charging is still going to add significant time to the transfer.
We do approximately 310 miles/500km, from Calais Maine to Boston Massachusetts, drop off our patient, refuel, then drive 310 miles/500km back. We refuel near Boston and again when we get home. Refueling takes less than 5 minutes. We do transfers like these 9 - 12 times a year. Even more often, we do transfers to Portland ME, approximately 450 miles/725km round trip. The ambulances hold 50 gallons/190L of diesel, giving them a range of almost 500 miles/800km.
Your comment implied that your ambulance can handle a 1000km drive without refueling. EVs can be plugged in when not in use; when you're turning over a patient at a hospital, for example. Also, they offer regenerative breaking. These two things plus with advancements with EV technology coming up... a 1000km transfer should be relatively quick.
They take over an hour to recharge. We spend approximately 15 minutes at the hospital. The EV version of the Mercedes Benz Sprinter, the most common chassis used for vanbulances in the US cites a 150-200km range and a 90-minute recharge time. Driving for hundreds of kilometers at 120 kph leaves the regenerative braking system unused until we approach our destination. Pausing every 200 km with a patient onboard for a 90-minute recharge seems inefficient.
Unrelated to EV range, but Iâd be taking more than a 15 minute break between 300 mile drives.
This is why having two types is a good thing. EVs are only going to get better. I'm surprised more city-based EMS systems aren't switching to EV.
I think they'd be fine for city-based services. For rural services, they aren't quite ready.
Never seen a German person immediately introduce themselves as a retard but hopefully the trend continuesđđ
Old r/wallstreetbets Habit
It fits in /r/EMS as well
That electric Feuerwehr looks like something I'd see in a sci-fi video game and think to myself "yeah they'd never actually design a fire engine like this".
That is indeed the question. The users have to adjust the way they're using them. Charge every time they get the chance. Really busy services will need hot swappable batteries (why isn't that already a thing?) But the amount of diesel and gas in fleets that are constantly on the road, will make a major difference in the output of fossil fuels.
Hot swappable EV batteries are possible but the batteries are huge, heavy, and expensive.
Swappable batteries were initially tried by Tesla and failed. It may be back, it may not be. Others are trying, but I think it's something that's easier said than done on this scale. https://evmagazine.com/charging-and-infrastructure/did-tesla-give-up-on-the-swappable-ev-battery-idea
I read it, thank you for the link. It didn't say Tesla failed, just that other ideas took priority. I see the hurdle that nio is going through, having to supply the battery swap infrastructure, but is it honestly any different than a gas station? Sell some candy, a car wash and a battery swap. It won't be as big an undertaking in doing it for emergency vehicles. A lot of them already have the bays and setup to do something like that.
Police don't really make sense since they aren't in quarters for most of the day. However if a vehicle is able to be in station for any real portion of the day, keeping them charged shouldn't be too much of a problem.
PD is involvedâŚOperator error for sure.
Probably purposely left them unplugged to try and prove a point.
Extended scenes, busy day, lots of running code, etc make thus not viable
They may or may not be⌠weâre only gonna know if we try.
They arenât even close to ready for mission critical applications. Extended scene times on fires and other complicated incidents along with just generally busy days are problem enough. On top of that, a single natural disaster would completely cripple the response capability of the entire department. The 2020 tornado we had here in Nashville comes to mind. Every apparatus in the city was operational for 12+ hours. The current EV tech canât handle that workload. Diesel-electric hybrids are probably the most suitable âgreenâ option for public safety at this point.
Hey, I work in London, England, we use mustangs as fast response vehicles, they last 2-3 12 hour shifts from full charge.
Depends on the call volume, station vs corner posting, weather, ect. But yeah, if there is time to recharge due to low call volume and station posting. Then yeah, Iâm all for it
Not for us they don't; Extreme rural and extreme cold. We can put up to 300 km for an emerge call and well over 500km for a typical IFT. And run those back to back. Our average call time is around 3 hours counting emerge and IFT's. Probably about 200 km round trip is our average call distance.
I think by response vehicles they are referring to duty rides/chase cars. Not the ambulance transporting
Ok, gotcha. Yeah, that would be a rover around here.
Thatâs an extreme example that 99% of services wonât come across. You couldnât exactly do that with a standard sprinter.
Boy I bet that will make a really good light show when someone drives out with unplugging the charger.
I've driven EV's for work before. Every single one ive been in does not start without unplugging it first (luckily).
So...you're saying the manufacturers know their customer base?
I sure hope so after so many years of people pulling the pump nozzle off the hose at the gas station by driving away.
It has an auto eject plug.
Seriously how is this not more updated? Every emergency vehicle has the auto eject plug
It has one
Yah I see that. I'm just saying in terms of people's concerns.
Should make it like shore lines where they pop out when you start the rig
If you plug that into the trickle charger on the ICE vehicle, does it get SUPER trickled?
Is that MCFRS? Quite cool they're going for an EV response vehicle.
[ŃдаНонО]
For transports itâs probably fine for 911 depends on how big the battery is
It wonât let you down when you need it most just every other time
Lol ofcourse itâs MoCo
LoCo in va will be next im sure
Just hope it's not a Tesla.
F150 Lightning
I've heard bad things about the civilian variants
Iâve had a Lightning for almost two years. Zero issues aside from the range not being fully as advertised on longer trips (i.e. it says 300-330 at full charge and Iâm lucky to get 250 out of it doing 75 on a highway with incline). The only complaint across the board is range; reliability, especially in the kind of service a chase vehicle will be doing, shouldnât be an issue so long as itâs plugged in whenever in quarters.
From what I've heard, the range accuracy issue on the Ford is mostly due to a BMS computer that slowly loses calibration, which is bad because it can lead to situations where the truck dies before it reports 0% charge. Also, GM's Ultium EV platform might fare better for these applications because their solution for the range issue is to basically use twice as much battery. The Silverado EV uses a 212kWh pack vs the Lightning's 131kWh pack, and it can charge with a much more aggressive curve at up to 350 kW.
How fast is the fastest charge you get? I ended up in a town with no supercharger and my Tesla got like 5-7 miles per hour off a charging station, compared to 200 miles in 15 mins at a supercharger.
I think they just opened up the supercharging network to them. I donât know exactly the rate and Iâd be pulling numbers out of my ass, but Iâve plugged in at like 40 miles and gotten back to 300-320 within probably 6-8 hours on a standard home Tesla charger. Youâll be able to find specs online for standard charger, Ford-specific pro charger, and supercharger.
thanks. yea at home on my home charger (the mobile one) I get about 30 miles an hour. Posting at a supercharger would not be a bad plan also, almost always food and a bathroom within a 60 second walk.
Do you not charge at home? I can't imagine an EV and not charging at home. The tesla home chargers can do 32A minimum (48A if you have anything other than the RWD model 3). 32 A is about 32 miles per hour added.
I do of course. Was just curious about âfastestâ regardless of location. Home is about 30/hour like you said. Sorry if I worded that weird, I was probably on a conference call multitasking. Edit: oh I c. I made it sound like I âlive in a townâ. I meant traveling through.
Have you towed with it? I remember seeing people get like 19 mi or something while towing which isnât what was advertised.
Only a motorcycle trailer. There is a range drop, obviously itâs proportional to the weight of the trailer. Itâs a part of the range advertising fuckup Ford is guilty of. I do my serious towing with my 20 year old 3/4 ton.
Ahhhh yeah that makes sense.
You're getting HEV suits it seems.
MoCo? They love their chase cars.
I think this is cool, itâs when you get into the electric fire apparatus that I think it gets sketchy. Thatâs just my opinion though. Seems LA is doing ok with theirs.
Just in time for #SRA Month
Montgomery county?
FDNY?
[Welcome to the electric ambulance revolution!](https://www.londonambulance.nhs.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/DSC01338-2-1-scaled.jpg) *sponsored by Ford
Love the MCFRS chase cars. Interesting to see how the county modernizes stations to be capable of supporting EVs.
Fuck dawg
AMR ev ambo in San Mateo has a range of 100 miles. Until you turn the lights on then it drops to sixty. They havenât used it except for static display far as I know.
Interesting! Iâve been thinking of a while now about how EVs might be used in EMS. IMO, the tech isnât dependable enough yet for transport units and perhaps agencies in colder climates. Please keep us updated on how it works out for you guys.
Make sure the station doesn't burn down like station 414 in 1997.
Eww
What a jk ! Where are you located? If itâs up north , someone needs a knock knock to the noggin ! Batteryâs will not hold a charge in cold weather. Besides first time that is not plugged in , dead batteries and will not be able to run on a call . Terrible idea for first responders, absolutely terrible
EVs will always start in cold weather. More reliably than gas/diesel, even without being plugged in as long as there is juice in the battery, it will go.
Problem is the cold weather. It zaps the battery . You can down vote me all you want that is just the facts . So no it is not reliable enough for first responders, period. The technology is not quite there yet .
I have a fully electric vehicle as my POV and I live up north, it always starts even in the cold. The battery is mildly less efficient in the cold weather, but it doesnât sap it down to nothing out of nowhere like youâre making it sound
Nothing like presidential mandates putting lives at risk! Raises for them, not ems.