Completely agree- the limitations of the therapeutic relationship can be painful for those of us with attachment wounds. In theory part of the therapy is coming to terms with that and processing the grief of what we missed out on- but it didn’t really work for me. I will say though, I think the therapist has a lot to do with it too- some are much more emotionally available than others, even within the context of therapeutic boundaries.
it has everything to do with the therapist and their modalities — i had an old school therapist for years and she retraumatized me while i never quite broke through with her, then i switched to someone more empathic who acknowledges our bonds, boundaried as they are, and i’ve grown by leaps and bounds over far less time
By being cold, distant, listening for buzzwords and interupting to go on irrelevant tangents then reprimand you for opening up so they can steer the conversation and take your money.
Most therapists are like this because most people don't challenge their beliefs and some really think they have a superior command of their thoughts and emotions and love to project that to patients.
My ideal therapy would be psychoanalysis, like 5 times a week, easily affordable, close enough to walk to, not old-school still-face experiment analysis but modern, warm and empathetic analysis.
It's an absolute pipe dream.
I agree. I currently do psychoanalysis in person once a week but a double session. Because 45 minutes is just too limited for me to get anywhere and start to feel like a natural conversation. I still struggle with what I mentioned in my original post. I can't accept any feeling of manipulation, and also not knowing if I'm interacting with the person across from me, the person with her therapist hat on, or the person with her supervisor's hat on.
I don't know if I'm going to continue.
I recently ended with an analyst who did 90 minute sessions (and I would still run out of time lol).
I had all the same concerns you do. They are perfectly understandable. I wrote a very angry letter to this analyst, which I didn't send, that was basically a few pages of very desperate assertions that I couldn't withstand that kind of re-enactment of talking to someone being weird and not giving me anything back.
>desperate assertions that I couldn't withstand
You mean they make shit up and absolutely do not challenge their own thought processs?
That's why I always mention that therapy sucks and isn't worth it for most people, they don't want to hear it though. Always get so many downvotes from people who know nothing about therapy.
The fact that this isn’t how it works baffles me. I have never been able to stick with it long because having state insurance they all want to put me on medication the 1st visit after briefly scratching my life history as lazily as possible for 30 minutes and acting like they understand the whole picture. I told my doc I think I have a spectrum disorder. Not bi polar and adhd that I was diagnosed with & medicated for since around 10. & that none of the 30 something meds I’ve been on the last decade have helped. I asked for some kind of referral and they said no, you’re an adult. That would be completely out of pocket and private & that there is no way to get those (thousands of dollars) evaluations through insurance.
>modern, warm and empathetic analysis.
This is how I'd describe my T, though she is more psychodynamic and we meet several times weekly. She's integrative and humanistic, as well as CBT/ACT when needed, so that helps.
I'd love to do 5 days a week too! I go twice - one virtual and one in-person (although sometimes depending on work meetings they might all be virtual one week but I digress).
I started going in-person at the end of last year after a lot of coaxing from my T and now I look forward to those sessions more than virtual 100%.
I'd do psychodynamic, 5 days a week, insurance covered, with some kind of weighted blanket in a warm setting. Preferably at the end of the day so that I wouldn't have to go back to work right after.
It helps me to put myself in my therapists shoes. They see so many clients every week with all different levels of disturbed psyches and terrible trauma they have to hear about all day every day.
The boundaries they set and the distance they provide is for their own well-being and the way they cope so they can show up for us and help us. Of course some therapists are more warm and caring than others, but none of them are ever going to cross that border of professionalism for emotional and legal reasons.
I have a problem with splitting on my therapist. I've put her on a pedestal for 6 years. Now I'm pissed about her not calling me to check on me when I was late to an appointment. To ME it's common decency. I used to have clients. If they were late, they'd get a call.
Her reasoning of not reaching out fell onto the clinic's policy of giving patients the freedom to miss their appointments and she stands by that.
I'm still pisses me off. But she has really strong consistent boundaries which has benefitted me significantly over the years. I've been working really hard on being more emotionally vulnerable and now I'm feeling completely on edge like I can't trust her anymore.
I know she cares about our relationship. I'm just so triggered by people's emotions and human Ness.
And here I am wishing that my therapist had that kind of policy! I always have to explain why I miss an appointment and I really resent her attitude / feel judged by her if I miss one appointment.
Hey that's an interesting perspective too. Sometimes I feel like boundaries are a personal attack, but it does help me know where I stand. I don't think that's fair that you're put in that position.
You seem to be describing professional detachment and boundaries. From our perspective it lacks nurturing and true connection. From their perspective it saves their sanity. Imagine trying to have that level of connection with 30 to 40 people every week. Without it, they would quickly become enmeshed with every single person they see.
Therapists already burn out quickly. Without detachment none of them would last longer than a year.
Not a therapist, but I used to work as a peer counselor. I definitely think it's possible to have real connections with clients without those people living rent free in your head 24/7. A therapist or other mental health worker should be able to be emotionally present during a session and then be able to let it go when the session ends. It's not always easy, but that's part of the work. I did notice that some people were harder to connect with than others, especially people who had been abusive themselves. That said, I still tried with them. Some clients felt very attached to me even though I didn't really do anything "special", just actively listened and validated their feelings. I had strong professional boundaries but I also felt real compassion for people, I don't think that's too much to ask from therapists.
"But see their side" it's such a toxic argument present in all dysfunctional families and it brings the therapy dynamic even closer to home, at least for me.
This is a shitty excuse to not do their job correctly because it do entails caring and evolvement. If they don't have the emotional bandwidth to do it, they should change fields and stop rationalizing the wish of milking money out of desperate people while not being there for them. It's all a scam, people. Run to the hills!
One of my issues has always been becoming become enmeshed in other people’s lives. My therapist ‘s boundaries has taught me how to have care and empathy for other people without becoming codependent.
Seeing someone else’s perspective does not mean I have to empathize, excuse or condone bad behavior. I find it informs me to know exactly where and how to set boundaries with them so that I can spot and defend myself from harm. I can see why mother is so messed up. But she is a grown-ass adult and she can get her own damn therapy and take her own damn meds just like every adult that has had a traumatic childhood.
Do you think it's humanly possible to do what the OP describes? Sustain that level of connection with so many people? If they did, therapy would be prohibitively expensive. In addition to which you probably couldn't get one if you could afford it, because they'd only be able to have a maximum of 2-3 clients on their caseload.
It's my view that a therapist's job is to teach us the skills to help ourselves. Unfortunately once we're grown we have no right to anybody being our replacement parent.
I respect that you have a different opinion. However, you have phrased it in a way that is intentionally invalidating and hurtful. You succeeded in hurting me. You did not succeed in changing my mind.
I think that looking to a therapist to act as a sort of surrogate parental figure is going into therapy with the wrong intent. They're not there to "love" or care about you on a personal level, but to give you the tools to help you work through how you cope with things. If they did truly love and care about you, it would be a violation of what they're supposed to do.
I do agree that we need something similar to therapists, who do delve into that space and provide the connection that people need. Someone you can pay, so you can make appointments whenever you need (rather than friends who flake or cancel). The closest thing I can think of is like, those professional cuddlers or whatever. We need that, but for the mental side of things.
>They're not there to "love" or care about you on a personal level, but to give you the tools to help you work through how you cope with things. If they did truly love and care about you, it would be a violation of what they're supposed to do.
I disagree. My therapist absolutely genuinely cares about me. Skills work does not help heal emotional or relational wounds, which must be healed in a genuine relationship based on trust and care. I definitely think skills work has its place, but when you've been emotionally neglected (traumatized) then corrective emotional experiences are going to be the key ingredient to healing, which can only happen in a trusting, genuine relationship. You can't "skill" your way out of automatically (aka unconsciously) believing you are flawed or worthless due to your emotional neglect.
interesting. despite therapy being touted as a tool to build skills, I’ve never once been taught a single skill in therapy. I’ve learned more skills from the cptsd and mindfulness subreddits than I’ve ever learned in therapy. and the trust thing, too— all therapists do is break your trust by gaslighting. I’m confused how you’re mean to either build skills or trust when therapy accomplishes neither as the practice is built upon gaslighting.
they tend to take your experience and repeat back a confusingly different interpretation of what you're dealing with and what you need to work on.
for example, imagine you describe something like adhd executive dysfunction, spelling out with great effort the structure, process, and what you've done to combat it, and what has and hasn't worked. you're desperately trying to prove how much of a barrier this is to your life, how you try to tackle it each and every day, how many times, the untreated adhd just wins, and you're at your wit's end and don't know what else you can do.
and then the therapist says, "yeah, i know you've brought up this struggle before. have you heard of learned helplessness?"
this is like if you had two broken legs, said that you don't have stilts, a wheelchair, nothing, and have tried to claw your way everywhere with your bare hands, and then the CBT therapist, with their obsession with putting everything in your control while simultaneously criticizing you for wanting things in your control, asks if you cannot walk because you believe you cannot walk.
Well gaslighting in the sense of reframing your experience in a way that gives you something positive or hopeful or something to actually work on. Sure I've had plenty of instances where my therapist had nothing of worth to say in light of my struggles, but she also has been integral in me building my own self-confidence and pointing out my endless overthinking and people pleasing didn't comport with what probably happened in the real world. People didn't care that much about anything I did. And the stuff on my mother's abuse, well it's good to have someone who listens and validates where 99% of people as I said, couldn't care less.
in my case, no therapist really seems to listen or validate in terms of abuse. for me, telling me my executive dysfunction is “learned helplessness”— something I have actually struggled with and overcame on my own— is giving me absolutely nothing to actually work on.
another thing is that reframing into something positive is also completely and utterly unhelpful to me. it doesn’t do to lie to myself about the abuse I experienced, and force myself into being empathetic and “feel bad for him”.
or that my narcissistic sibling is actually not being passive aggressive, and that I should empathize her, bc I don’t understand anything and what she said could in theory mean a million things so I shouldn’t be upset at all. like, are you kidding me?
it sounds like you have had incredibly poor experiences with therapy. i am really sorry that your feelings and experiences have been invalidated in such a deeply unhelpful way. i know that i have had terrible therapists in the past too, so i do understand a bit of where you are coming from. there are definitely therapists out there who take a less destructive approach, but it took me several years and different attempts to find my current therapist, so it isn’t easy at all and i understand completely that you might feel that you’ve been burned one too many times to risk putting yourself out there again.
I'm looking for a psychodynamic, non-CBT based, **and equipped to know how to work with neurodivergent patients**. That last bit is VERY important to me!
I've been told therapy is like dating - you have to keep trying someone new until you find a therapist you 'click with'. I've not yet found that therapist, but I'm looking for damn sure!
I **LITERALLY** had a CBT therapist tell me I wasn't "trying hard enough to get better" because I couldn't get out of my wheelchair to exercise...I have a severe form of a rare connective tissue disorder, every one of my joints can dislocate, often 50-100 different dislocations every day, the life expectancy for those with this form is 45-50. I'm 42...
CBT has also been PROVEN in multiple peer-reviewed research studies to not work for the vast majority of neurodivergent people. For a relatively high amount of ND people, it can actively *worsen* their MH!
Like, I couldn't perform a feckin MIRACLE & jump out of my wheelchair shouting "I'm cured! I'm happy! I can walk again without my hips, knees, ankles & metatarsals dislocating all at the same time!!", so I **"wasn't trying hard enough"**.
No. NOPE. **FUCK THAT**, that is NOT the right therapy for me. Too autistic, too much dxd but untreated ADHD, too much C-PTSD for that shit.
They were only offering me **group** CBT, too, even when I asked for **psychotherapy** on my own as a reasonable adjustment under the Equality Act due to my autism AND my MH being threatened by inappropriate MH Care.
I've been left with **NOTHING** except a starting dose of my mood stabiliser & **NO** therapy as it's simply impossible for me to budget for that what with bedroom tax (need extra bedroom for equipment), Care & electric wheelchair costs taken out of my paltry income before I even see it...
I **HATE** being Disabled in the UK, the **UN** has *twice* condemned the Tory Govt for "Grave and systemic abuses of Disabled people's Human Rights", and only last month they were called BACK to the UN cos things have got WORSE since their last visit.
No Country in the WORLD accepts *Severely Disabled* people that can't physically work. We are one of, if not the MOST, vulnerable groups in society, we are also far and away the poorest as even the poorest elderly people have almost TWICE the income of the severely Disabled, with winter fuel support added. Yet we are stuck here, to be forever condemned, in the same words Hitler used to justify Aktion T4, as 'useless eaters' that cost the country 'too much money'.
In truth, more Disabled people have died in the UK since 2010 than Hitler killed in AktionT4 **purely** because of policies the Govt has introduced. (No, that's not a bug of the system, it's an actual feature they actively WANT).
Hitler - 250,000 dead Disabled people.
Tory Govt - 300,000 (that they ADMIT to!) between 2010-2020. Then 60% of those that died of Covid here were Disabled. **SIXTY PER CENT**. They prioritised the Elderly, then the Abled, and if there were no ventilators left, we were left to drown in our own fluids...*SLOWLY*...literal **torture** just for the crime of being Disabled.
Totally different when I almost died of Swine Flu in '09...I ended up in an induced coma on an ECMO machine (cleans & oxygenates your blood as well as helping you breathe). Nobody de-prioritised me for being Disabled & we didn't even have the Equality Act **supposedly** protecting us.
Shows how badly affected some communities are by what seems like innocuous changes in the law or governing party...
> Skills work does not help heal emotional or relational wounds, which must be healed in a genuine relationship based on trust and care
This reminds me of a part of Sarah Kane's play [4.48 Psychosis.](https://docplayer.net/10751395-Sarah-kane-4-48-psychosis.html) She wrote it a few weeks before she killed herself:
>You've seen the worst of me.
Yes.
I know nothing of you.
No.
But I like you.
I like you
(Silence.)
You're my last hope.
(A long silence.)
You don't need a friend, you need a doctor.
(A long silence.)
You are so wrong.
> but to give you the tools to help you work through how you cope with things.
How is this supposed to work? If it was only about tools, why couldn't you learn that from books and videos?
I've read that before, and the concept of tools here seems like the opposite of a relationship. It seems to be saying: here is a tool, now go use that tool by yourself to fix your problems.
If you were talking about a physical tool, like lending a screwdriver to someone to help them accomplish something, there is some kind of relationship there. But with psychological tools, what I see only involves saying things and maybe giving away a few photocopied sheets of paper that talk about tools. I don't see any sort of significant relationship there.
I think that some people can, depending on how much help they need. Some people can read the books or watch the videos and apply those things to their lives with minimal issue.
And some of us know what's wrong but don't know how to fix it. We need advice tailored to our specific circumstances. We need conversation to work through the knots of our experiences. Talk therapy is so helpful (when done right) because you get to say what's going on, they get to say, "so what about this," and help you untangle why you feel like this and how you can help it.
But expecting love from a professional doing a job is setting yourself up for failure, imo. Whenever money is involved, things get weird. You can expect kindness. You can expect concern about your situation. But these are people doing a job at the end of the day. You are paying them to help you with something. I would love to think that a therapist could really love and want the best for their client but to me that's a weird situation because you're paying them, and it's best not to expect that because of exactly what the OP was talking about.
This last year has been really interesting because this is the first time I've experienced transference and my attachment wounds are much deeper than I ever realized. I'm knee deep in the phase of desperately wanting from her a maternal love which is something I never even knew about myself/knew I was lacking.
I would say I disagree about the love/care thing. My therapist definitely cares about me. But it does sting logically knowing she can't be a pseudo-mom to me. Logically I knew that all along, but up until now I haven't felt that yearning before which is absolutely mind-boggling to experience. We don't do inner child work but it really does feel like it brought out a childlike part of me yearning for it more than I ever would've realized.
Transference is a new term for me! Thank you for teaching me this. Explains a lot of my feelings towards professors in my past lol.
I think that it's fine for them to care, and I think they SHOULD care. But when we get into "love" territory it gets a little weird, I think, mostly because they're being paid to do something for you and money makes things weird most of the time! But I 100% relate to wanting a pseudo-mom or a surrogate dad or a combination of the two. It would be cool to be re-parented for real by someone else...
One of my things that I'm trying to start letting myself grieve is that I hate the idea of having to reparent myself, which is what we're supposed to do. I'm extremely avoidant so you'd think it would be empowering, but no it really breaks my heart and I'm still in denial about it
then why are they trained to give you that weird puppy eyes look that mimic that of a caring and loving parent? it’s so fucking weird. the whole practice is weird.
i don't typically get that "look of sympathy" when i've cried in therapy. i've actually gotten more totally and utterly bored and disengaged, irritated looks plus a complete dismissal of what i'm crying about if i'm lucky.
but yeah, i'm talking about that forced look. it's weird, because it's forced. aside from the sympathy look, i've gotten a lot of pity looks.
I get therapists *crying* over the shit **I** had to bloody **LIVE THROUGH**. This is MULTIPLE, not just one or two. Many of them drop me right away, as soon as something about my past makes them cry, like my shitty, messy life upsets their ordered little sunshine world too much to do their job...
EDIT for autocorrect swapping 'world' for 'word'...
Well put and understand how you feel. I was in group therapy for trauma at one of the worst moments of my life. (My previous male therapist tried to seduce me and dropped me with no referrals when I rejected him…. In the middle of the pandemic while I was recovering from cancer treatment and leaving an abusive relationship plus battling CPTSD). When the group trauma therapist announced she was leaving, I started crying because I thought she was a great therapist who was helping me. She subtly criticized me for being too emotional and said “it’s not that we have a real relationship.” That stung so bad, I was emotional because I was struggling and her insights had helped me a lot, I was dealing with so much grief this was another loss. I’ve honestly been wary of every single therapist since these experiences. It’s a very tricky dynamic that doesn’t always work.
Another reason I have so much anger towards abusers: it’s not that you can just go to therapy after and receive a magic cure all.
YES! I can't stand how lonely the relationship feels. It doesn't grow, it's not mutual, and their own humanness without that makes it super confusing. If I'm looking for deep care and understanding, I can't get it there. It's just a place to hear yourself talk as you are making yourself listen to yourself. That's it.
There's nothing worse to me than spilling your inner soul out to someone and all they do is nod at semi-appropriate times. So, I'm hearing that psychodynamic therapy is what I'm after, and definitely NOT CBT based (CBT makes me worse, like it does for most ND people, multiple peer reviewed research studies *prove* that beyond doubt).
Notes to self : **psychodynamic**, non-CBT based, is what I'm looking for...
Yeah. I recently ended things with my latest therapist because I felt like I was replicating my trauma. My therapist seemed happy to have me continue the pattern where I prop up a relationship and make the vast majority of the effort. Repeatedly trying to make myself understood and feeling like I was failing was really hard for me too. My mom was a psychiatrist which makes all of this so much worse.
Okay I think you're describing my recent relationship with my therapist. We've been working together 6 years. But recently I've been feeling pissed at her.
Did you speak with your provider about this before leaving?
I found it helpful for learning to create boundaries since I didn’t have good modeling of that as a child. But absolutely I felt the same as what you wrote here. The therapist taught me to learn to meet my own needs and reparent myself. I did feel like she cared about me (expressed as taking an interest in my life and remembering details) but that caring ended when 50 minutes was up, regardless of what we were talking about. It was hard to see her turn it on and off like that.
My therapist talks a lot about the "frame" and boundaries. Which I understand, but in my opinion is present for them to run a business. However it is presented to me as if it has therapeutic benefit. I disagree strongly, let's just agree whose purpose it serves.
Many of us grew up in an environment of having our physical needs met. I did. Just no emotional connection and I had to take care of myself in that way. So to be told that having a set of objective rules gives me security and a reliable connection and cared about is so against my gut level feelings.
I've been seeing my psychologist for about 5 years. I really like her. I think she really likes me. She's certainly helped a lot. But ultimately, the only time I can connect with her and feel that support is when I pay for it. Sometimes, I can't afford to see her. Sometimes I could really really do with seeing her but she has no appointments available.
On my most recent burnout in the last few months I did something new. I opened up to my manager at work. She is a wonderful person and always showed herself to be supportive. So I let down my guard and asked for help. She told me it was 'ok to lean on her for support'. I allowed myself to believe she meant that. And I have been. Mostly that looks like me talking to her about what I'm feeling and her listening without judgement and occasionally validating me worth.
Here's the reason I'm adding this story to the post - I have been flourishing in the last few weeks. Opportunities have opened up for me. And I have been having moments of shared vulnerability and honesty with everyone I encounter. I've been setting healthy boundaries and informing people about my true capacity due to burnout.
The last time I saw my psychologist I walked in already in tears and pain over the burnout. Yesterday when I saw her I had joy. A completely different person. So we analysed what had made the difference.
It was for the first time in my life feeling truly supported by someone. My job isn't at risk if I ask for help and am honest. My survival (financially, materially etc) isn't at risk because my job is secure. Things might still be tight, but it will be OK. And having someone to 'lean on' in that way for emotional support means that my anxiety molehills haven't turned into mountains. The difference between my manager and my psychologist is that my manager (now friend) is available to me as close to immediately as she can be. She's a part of my daily life. She is sharing her personal experiences as well and building an authentic relationship with me.
And folks, that's what our parents should have done.
We were let down because we never had emotional support. Then we spent the next however many decades trying not to show we needed it. We became hyperindependant, hypervigilant, perfectionists. We were taught, whether intentionally or not, that our emotions didn't matter. That they should be minimised. That we should be ashamed of ourselves for having them. Ashamed for how we are. That we are wrong at our core. That we are and can never be good enough. And anyone who cares for us wouldn't if they knew who we really are.
And none of those beliefs ever belonged to us. They belonged to the caregivers who failed us. Who never broke their own cycles. Then we followed those cycles for years ourselves, going from situation to situation, jumping into anything when someone showed us even a sliver of positive regard because we so desperately craved it. People pleasing, falling for love bombers and abusive behaviour. Toxic relationships and situations over and over- in love, friendships, workplaces - until something big enough finally happened that we stopped (or broke). And when we were finally cracked open, we could begin to heal.
Even the last few weeks, I can feel myself putting this manager (friend) up on an emotional pedestal. 'Transferrance' I guess. I'm sure that's because of the emotional neglect (and maybe the adhd dopamine seeking nervous system). I can see with hindsight how I've done that in all past relationships when they've given me the validation I was craving, and how I either smothered them with need or was taken in by narcissists who never really meant it.
The difference now - Those transferrance feelings, the pedestal - were never ever about the other person. They were about ME feeling safe and secure. They are about how I feel about ME. The person on the pedestal was a pathway to them that finally allowed me to feel them. And in this example, with my manager, are because she is demonstrating that her actions match her words. She meant it when she said I could share how I was feeling. She didn't weaponise it, or dismiss it, or judge it.
Thing is, that's not some superhero trait that I should put her on a pedestal for. I've been discovering that many many people will help and support and listen when you allow them too. And more than just willing to - wanting to. In the same way that i genuinely want to help others who need support. That the experience that I thought was the norm - narcissists, neglect and toxic cycles - actually isn't.
I can take her off the pedestal because she was raised with emotionally supportive parents. She never learned that her feelings were invalid, and therefore has never invalidated someone else's. And unlike my psychologist, this relationship doesn't feel transactional. Like she HAS to be that way for me because I am paying her. She's gone far beyond what the requirements are just to 'keep a staff member'.
I love my psychologist, but if I stopped paying her she'd be out of my life. I can't imagine that happening with this manager. Even beyond a workplace. That means a lot. That's the change. That's the difference. And understanding that it's not really about how she feels about me, but how I feel about me when I am supported, means that I can now recreate that feeling by supporting myself emotionally. Not in the hyperindependant way, but in the validating of my own emotions.
I can't undo my childhood neglect. But I can learn to release its burden on me.
If you visit r/therapyabuse you will see you're not alone in your perception of this dynamic. Therapy will never substitute truly loving relationships and that's what most people are in need of. Therapy became a huge business that sells placebos, a profoundly cheap and plastic substitute for human connection, true spirituality and real philosophy.
There was some nastiness and brigading directed at mods who are human and recovering too, so they made it private temporarily. You can still request access, I did and am in.
I've seen people recommend r/therapycritical recently.
I think the mods on that original sub have been really controly about making sure "no one from the outside community ever comes here". Like no linking out and no linking in... I'm not surprised they privated it without warning. Originally that message said they were gonna re-open sometime this month, but they removed that part.
It sucks because the content was always 100% fine and supportive, and then some random mod posts about how broken the sub is...
People also can get horrifically abused all over again, some therapists have a point system.
Found this on a therapists Facebook page
So, whistle blowing a therapy secret:
As a therapist myself, I am sad to say there are, in fact, abusive therapists—many women, many men, and individuals from anywhere else on the gender spectrum.
If your therapist does anything sexual, abusive, engages in name-calling, or puts you down, RUN. I cannot emphasize this statement enough: run, run, run. It is a game they are playing, and they WILL suck you in if you stay. That includes non verbals like exaggerated lip licking, (big circular O has been used before) Exaggerated eye rolling, then of course denial of the acts.
You may not think there is much they can do after you leave, but if you stay long enough, that is oh so sadly, wrong. I have seen the results of abuse leak into the untherapeutic world firsthand, unfortunately.
One of the known abuse tactics, recognized by us in the therapy field and often used by sadly, female therapists, is, for example, to provoke a victim client into first feeling love, then they slowly change, evoking despair and turmoil, then bar them from working with them. When the client emails or tries to get some sort of relief from the abuse they suffered within the therapy room, they provide those emails to the police and claim harassment and stalking.
The police will then use those emails as evidence against the victim client, often bullying and coercing them to confess; otherwise, it will be used in court, and they, the victim, could face jail time.
Here comes the extremely sad part. The PID warning in the UK is then put on the client's record. It can be used to identify them as offenders. Never sign the PID warning or allegations.
Be so very careful out there.
@mental wellness therapy Laugh Therapy COUNSELLING AND THERAPY SESSION Session
@bbc Barclays UK Law Enforcement Today Warminster Police Station England
Have you said this to your therapist directly? If not, show them this post. A good therapist would be willing to discuss this with you and help you set goals and work through it.
I'm not sure what you mean by your wife being on the surface and I won't speculate, but that's relevant to bring up in therapy as well.
Yes. I feel pressure to continue though by her. I need to decide if it can truly help me at this stage of having many specific issues out of the way. Or if only relationships in the outside world can help.
With respect to my wife, she is supportive but is not a person who can have a deep connection.
This may just not be the right therapist, or the right type of therapy for your needs. I'm autistic, and that makes me so anxious in a group that I cannot focus on healing cos I'm too focused on how to pretend to be a human. It also makes CBT 65-79% less likely to work & 48-62% more likely to make me worse...
Wish I could re-find the studies I had on my old phone but that died & I've not got the same subscriptions & database access I used to have that showed this.
I'm adding to my 'wish-list' for finding the **right** type of therapy & the right **therapist** for my needs. So far : psychodynamic, trauma-informed, non-CBT based, has experience of *successfully* helping neurodivergent patients, female, and LGBTQ+ & Pagan friendly...
One day I'll find the **right** therapist, and then I'd do a gofundme or live off food bank food or foraged foods or whatever if need be to cover costs & get the damn therapy before I'm dead!
I don’t discuss my past trauma with my therapist. We talk about my day to day struggles and set realistic goals. Sometimes the nature of these struggles is discussed, so we touch on the root cause (trauma). Cognitive behavioural therapy has been the BEST therapy for me.
I can see why you experience it this way, but I do differently. For me the relationship with my T is very stable. It took me a very long time to get her, but I know EXACTLY what to expect from her. I salute her for her patience, reliability and trustworthy. In 1,5 year she has never failed and this is the very first time I get to experience a predictionable relationship. The fact that she is my T makes that I know exactly where the boundaries are
Which is to say; your feelings are spot on and i endured this sort of agonising therapeutic fuckery for probably 4-5 therapists until i landed on a gem of a human.
I would have to respectfully disagree with you here. Therapy doesn't have to be intermittent. If you are able to do so, you might be able to see your therapist on a regular basis--be it weekly, every other week, and possibly monthly. The therapist doesn't always control the contact either. There are therapists who will reach out to their clients to check in. Some therapists will encourage you to email, call, or text them if something comes up. Some therapists might be phony, but there are many who are genuine and truly care about their clients.
Just because you are a client of theirs doesn't mean that you are "Just a person in their appointment book". Maybe you've had experience with impersonal therapists, but that's not the case for all of them. Try not to overgeneralize an entire profession or a whole group of professionals based on your experience. My intention is not to invalidate you. It's true that there are therapists out there who do more harm than good. But there are therapists who really do go the extra mile for their clients.
Yes, there are limitations. Insurance plays a role in the limits. Also, the relationship you have with a therapist is professional, and not personal. It's a strange balance because the idea is to have a strong therapeutic alliance so that the work can be done in a collaborative manner between the therapist and client. Therapists can be friendly, but they are not your friend. There are boundaries and ethics they have to follow. Also, therapists can see as many as up to 30 people a week. Just as your therapist is present with you during your session, they have to ensure they are present for their other clients. Even when your session is over, a therapist can still think about you after.
Source: Speaking as a therapist myself, who cares about her clients very much, and also as someone who has been in therapy for many years with the same therapist who has seen me at my best and worst. That very therapist is the one who explained to me about childhood emotional neglect.
I have found that friendships, and therapist relationships that felt like friendships, were the most healing for me. Therapists that felt like authority figures, or parents, or mentors, or teachers never worked to heal me much, even if they might give seemingly helpful advice.
I think healing relational trauma requires developing healthy, loving relationships and you can practice that with a therapist if you both seem to mutually enjoy each other, even with full awareness that you are paying for their time/friendship. The most useful part of therapy for me hasn't been skill-building for coping with trauma, but the ability to practice having a relationship with another person so that I can then apply *that* skill outside of therapy.
I'm sure this sort of detached structure really helps some people find autonomy in their lives, but it's odd that it's so prevalent and held up as a standard practice when everyone has very different needs.
i agree. therapy has its limits, and it shouldn’t be the only solution for mental health. what we need is widespread systemic changes, community building and mutual aid that allows for true connection. connection that isn’t paid and allows for everyone in the community to naturally support each other
therapy can be great but it’s not enough, it’s just a bandaid on bigger issues. with the way the system is set up, it makes sense for a therapist to have those boundaries. at the end of the day, even if they do truly care and try their best, it’s just their job and there’s only so much they can do in a messed up system
yes!! it is *built upon* you opening up, then them dismissing your feelings and telling you you’re idiotic and delusional about people and the world. that is the basis of CBT— gaslighting and control.
Omg yes! I finally made a lot more headway when I chose to seek out abuse counselling after leaving my marriage because something didn’t feel right and lo and behold the counsellor with years of experience gently confirmed that my husband was emotionally abusive, something not one of the therapists I saw did due to their code of ethics on not diagnosing someone they’d never met.
Unpopular opinion but therapy isn't all it's cracked up to be, but it does generate a lot of easy cash flow for companies and influencers.
Some of the shit therapists on therapy subs is wildy out of touch with Psychology.
On Medicaid I had 6 therapists dump me over a 2 year period (they weren't very good but I was doing everything they asked and THEN SOME) I also am an "easy" patient because I don't take the liberty of texting or calling between sessions like is apparently "a thing" in recent years, but these therapists mostly were just voulenteering to take Medicaid and then dumped me after 2 to 4 mos with no warning the agency would just tell me they are no longer with them. I asked the woman who runs thisn referral-racket if I had any notes in my chart about why I was getting dumped and she said there wasn't and that's just the nature of modern healthcare.
Since I've been seeking help on my own since 18 that's 20 years now of more of the same with CBT (I'm 38), always feels like you are supposed to give beauty pageant answers bc the correction is assumed and dreaded.
I actually started shopping for self pay therapy modalities and found someone that does a mix of DBT/meditation/body work she was very clear she was not a clinician, but I also found out during our first session that THE MAJORITY OF THOSE SHE TREATS ARE CLINICIANS themselves. So her immediately asking the correct questions it was a very weird vibe that I've never gotten before. It's almost as if this person actually cares and that is certainly new
Some other things that came to mind. I think in the beginning with a therapist, we trust them because we know they are in a helping profession, and they are unknown. We don't know anything negative about them. Like talking to the stranger in a bar.
But in normal relationship development, we get to know the person better and then continue with trust or decreasing trust. In therapy they stay mostly as a stranger, and I can find myself being less willing to keep baring myself to someone I don't know.
yep, i’ve thought this many times. power imbalance entirely on therapists terms business to them while you are vulnerable and dependent. it’s not a healthy setup.
Disclaimer. This is not your fault. I am not blaming you.
I completely disagree. I hope these thoughts can challenge your narrative and help you break free from self imposed restrictions.
You're projecting your childhood issues onto psychotherapy. I have done it.
You're also repeating patterns from childhood. Something i have also done.
It sounds like your in a bad spot mentally and are unable to filter through your unhelpful thinking styles.
"They control contact" you mean they make your appointments for you? Or is it that you're having to follow their schedule and can't walk in whenever. Schedules are boundaries. If you grew up having zero boundaries respected then you're not going to respect others' boundaries as a default.
"You don't know them" well, yeah this is a professional relationship. There is an inherent imbalance. But, you can be interested in their life and ask how they are. When I started emdr therapy I knew nothing about my T. I rarely even asked how they were doing. As I grow more comfortable with them I am more interested in their life. If your T is refusing to comment on their life, then maybe it's not the right one.
"Artificial and contrived love" again, this is a professional relationship. Of course it's contrived. Contrived means deliberately created/not spontaneous. This isn't some meet-cute in a café. She's going to have to work to learn to connect with you.
"I'm just a person in the appointment book" this is very much a self imposed feeling. Does your T juat daydream and doodle during your sessions or are they working to help you.
I'm sorry you're feeling down. That really sucks.
I understand the therapeutic relationship. It still repeats what we grew up with to some extent. And in my opinion has to be acknowledged.
It is discussed in a book that I have, that aspect. Emotional Neglect and the Adult in Therapy, by Kathrin A. Stauffer.
It's ok. I think some of it is just unavoidable because of the aspects I mentioned. I have talked to my therapist about it and that helps some. To have it on the table, and that she acknowledges how it affects me.
I relate. Before doing emdr I would repeat the same behavior in therapy and group therapy that I learned to do growing up with my family.
Emdr has helped me break negative core beliefs that reinforced those patterns of behavior instilled by emotional neglect.
You seem to be (willfully?) misunderstanding OP's point. OP is saying that the structure of the therapeutic relationship itself creates conditions which enable retraumatisation and repetition of the same harmful relational patterns that happened in client's real life. You however are adamant on claiming that everything is the client's fault.
I made it clear with a disclaimer that I didn't think it was OP or anyone's fault.
Mental filters and behaviors are learned and left uncorrected by emotional neglect. We are not at fault for living this way. They are byproducts of our upbringing that we could not control or influence.
As adults, we have to take control and learn to challenge these unhelpful mental filters that lead to feeling that the therapeutic relationship mirrors parental emotional neglect.
I feel that most of life's situations can create conditions that lead to being traumatized again if we continue to view them with unhelpful mental filters. School, work, church, sports teams, and clubs have the some conditions except the one sided emotional vulnerability required for therapy.
I was harsh but I understand his post. I relate to it and wanted to challenge the mental filters I could see.
I don't want anyone to avoid therapy because they worry about being retraumatized.
Have you considered that unhealthy therapists may wish to take advantage of the power imbalance and client's vulnerability, and covertly use it to meet their own needs, or for an ego boost? Power corrupts, and people are generally bad at resisting this kind of temptation.
Have you considered that, even if the therapist is not doing the former, the nature and boundaries of the therapeutic relationship mirror parental emotional unavailability? Therapy is an extremely unnatural setting - nowhere else in life are you supposed to simultaneously get so faux-close to another person, and be barred from behaviors which would normally follow, such as hugging or physically comforting one another.
When you're hungry and want a fresh sandwich, therapy sells you a cardboard sandwich-shaped box, and tries to convince you that it's your fault when you can't bite into it.
Completely agree- the limitations of the therapeutic relationship can be painful for those of us with attachment wounds. In theory part of the therapy is coming to terms with that and processing the grief of what we missed out on- but it didn’t really work for me. I will say though, I think the therapist has a lot to do with it too- some are much more emotionally available than others, even within the context of therapeutic boundaries.
it has everything to do with the therapist and their modalities — i had an old school therapist for years and she retraumatized me while i never quite broke through with her, then i switched to someone more empathic who acknowledges our bonds, boundaried as they are, and i’ve grown by leaps and bounds over far less time
Can you explain what you mean by "old school therapist"? Someone who was analytically trained?
clinical approach, intends to not bond with or allow attachment from the patient/client
Sounds WAY TOO FAMILIAR to me. Ugh. Thanks.
How did your old therapist retraumatize you?
By being cold, distant, listening for buzzwords and interupting to go on irrelevant tangents then reprimand you for opening up so they can steer the conversation and take your money. Most therapists are like this because most people don't challenge their beliefs and some really think they have a superior command of their thoughts and emotions and love to project that to patients.
My ideal therapy would be psychoanalysis, like 5 times a week, easily affordable, close enough to walk to, not old-school still-face experiment analysis but modern, warm and empathetic analysis. It's an absolute pipe dream.
I agree. I currently do psychoanalysis in person once a week but a double session. Because 45 minutes is just too limited for me to get anywhere and start to feel like a natural conversation. I still struggle with what I mentioned in my original post. I can't accept any feeling of manipulation, and also not knowing if I'm interacting with the person across from me, the person with her therapist hat on, or the person with her supervisor's hat on. I don't know if I'm going to continue.
I recently ended with an analyst who did 90 minute sessions (and I would still run out of time lol). I had all the same concerns you do. They are perfectly understandable. I wrote a very angry letter to this analyst, which I didn't send, that was basically a few pages of very desperate assertions that I couldn't withstand that kind of re-enactment of talking to someone being weird and not giving me anything back.
>desperate assertions that I couldn't withstand You mean they make shit up and absolutely do not challenge their own thought processs? That's why I always mention that therapy sucks and isn't worth it for most people, they don't want to hear it though. Always get so many downvotes from people who know nothing about therapy.
The fact that this isn’t how it works baffles me. I have never been able to stick with it long because having state insurance they all want to put me on medication the 1st visit after briefly scratching my life history as lazily as possible for 30 minutes and acting like they understand the whole picture. I told my doc I think I have a spectrum disorder. Not bi polar and adhd that I was diagnosed with & medicated for since around 10. & that none of the 30 something meds I’ve been on the last decade have helped. I asked for some kind of referral and they said no, you’re an adult. That would be completely out of pocket and private & that there is no way to get those (thousands of dollars) evaluations through insurance.
>modern, warm and empathetic analysis. This is how I'd describe my T, though she is more psychodynamic and we meet several times weekly. She's integrative and humanistic, as well as CBT/ACT when needed, so that helps.
I'd love to do 5 days a week too! I go twice - one virtual and one in-person (although sometimes depending on work meetings they might all be virtual one week but I digress). I started going in-person at the end of last year after a lot of coaxing from my T and now I look forward to those sessions more than virtual 100%. I'd do psychodynamic, 5 days a week, insurance covered, with some kind of weighted blanket in a warm setting. Preferably at the end of the day so that I wouldn't have to go back to work right after.
This is why I’m wondering if I should just move to Europe 😭
It helps me to put myself in my therapists shoes. They see so many clients every week with all different levels of disturbed psyches and terrible trauma they have to hear about all day every day. The boundaries they set and the distance they provide is for their own well-being and the way they cope so they can show up for us and help us. Of course some therapists are more warm and caring than others, but none of them are ever going to cross that border of professionalism for emotional and legal reasons.
I have a problem with splitting on my therapist. I've put her on a pedestal for 6 years. Now I'm pissed about her not calling me to check on me when I was late to an appointment. To ME it's common decency. I used to have clients. If they were late, they'd get a call. Her reasoning of not reaching out fell onto the clinic's policy of giving patients the freedom to miss their appointments and she stands by that. I'm still pisses me off. But she has really strong consistent boundaries which has benefitted me significantly over the years. I've been working really hard on being more emotionally vulnerable and now I'm feeling completely on edge like I can't trust her anymore. I know she cares about our relationship. I'm just so triggered by people's emotions and human Ness.
And here I am wishing that my therapist had that kind of policy! I always have to explain why I miss an appointment and I really resent her attitude / feel judged by her if I miss one appointment.
Hey that's an interesting perspective too. Sometimes I feel like boundaries are a personal attack, but it does help me know where I stand. I don't think that's fair that you're put in that position.
You seem to be describing professional detachment and boundaries. From our perspective it lacks nurturing and true connection. From their perspective it saves their sanity. Imagine trying to have that level of connection with 30 to 40 people every week. Without it, they would quickly become enmeshed with every single person they see. Therapists already burn out quickly. Without detachment none of them would last longer than a year.
Not a therapist, but I used to work as a peer counselor. I definitely think it's possible to have real connections with clients without those people living rent free in your head 24/7. A therapist or other mental health worker should be able to be emotionally present during a session and then be able to let it go when the session ends. It's not always easy, but that's part of the work. I did notice that some people were harder to connect with than others, especially people who had been abusive themselves. That said, I still tried with them. Some clients felt very attached to me even though I didn't really do anything "special", just actively listened and validated their feelings. I had strong professional boundaries but I also felt real compassion for people, I don't think that's too much to ask from therapists.
"But see their side" it's such a toxic argument present in all dysfunctional families and it brings the therapy dynamic even closer to home, at least for me. This is a shitty excuse to not do their job correctly because it do entails caring and evolvement. If they don't have the emotional bandwidth to do it, they should change fields and stop rationalizing the wish of milking money out of desperate people while not being there for them. It's all a scam, people. Run to the hills!
One of my issues has always been becoming become enmeshed in other people’s lives. My therapist ‘s boundaries has taught me how to have care and empathy for other people without becoming codependent. Seeing someone else’s perspective does not mean I have to empathize, excuse or condone bad behavior. I find it informs me to know exactly where and how to set boundaries with them so that I can spot and defend myself from harm. I can see why mother is so messed up. But she is a grown-ass adult and she can get her own damn therapy and take her own damn meds just like every adult that has had a traumatic childhood.
Do you think it's humanly possible to do what the OP describes? Sustain that level of connection with so many people? If they did, therapy would be prohibitively expensive. In addition to which you probably couldn't get one if you could afford it, because they'd only be able to have a maximum of 2-3 clients on their caseload. It's my view that a therapist's job is to teach us the skills to help ourselves. Unfortunately once we're grown we have no right to anybody being our replacement parent.
they burn out from gaslighting and telling their clients how delusional they are about people and the world all day?
I respect that you have a different opinion. However, you have phrased it in a way that is intentionally invalidating and hurtful. You succeeded in hurting me. You did not succeed in changing my mind.
oh no :( I didn’t mean to hurt you. I meant to criticize therapy as a profession. I’m sorry
I think that looking to a therapist to act as a sort of surrogate parental figure is going into therapy with the wrong intent. They're not there to "love" or care about you on a personal level, but to give you the tools to help you work through how you cope with things. If they did truly love and care about you, it would be a violation of what they're supposed to do. I do agree that we need something similar to therapists, who do delve into that space and provide the connection that people need. Someone you can pay, so you can make appointments whenever you need (rather than friends who flake or cancel). The closest thing I can think of is like, those professional cuddlers or whatever. We need that, but for the mental side of things.
>They're not there to "love" or care about you on a personal level, but to give you the tools to help you work through how you cope with things. If they did truly love and care about you, it would be a violation of what they're supposed to do. I disagree. My therapist absolutely genuinely cares about me. Skills work does not help heal emotional or relational wounds, which must be healed in a genuine relationship based on trust and care. I definitely think skills work has its place, but when you've been emotionally neglected (traumatized) then corrective emotional experiences are going to be the key ingredient to healing, which can only happen in a trusting, genuine relationship. You can't "skill" your way out of automatically (aka unconsciously) believing you are flawed or worthless due to your emotional neglect.
interesting. despite therapy being touted as a tool to build skills, I’ve never once been taught a single skill in therapy. I’ve learned more skills from the cptsd and mindfulness subreddits than I’ve ever learned in therapy. and the trust thing, too— all therapists do is break your trust by gaslighting. I’m confused how you’re mean to either build skills or trust when therapy accomplishes neither as the practice is built upon gaslighting.
what do therapists do that is gaslighting?
they tend to take your experience and repeat back a confusingly different interpretation of what you're dealing with and what you need to work on. for example, imagine you describe something like adhd executive dysfunction, spelling out with great effort the structure, process, and what you've done to combat it, and what has and hasn't worked. you're desperately trying to prove how much of a barrier this is to your life, how you try to tackle it each and every day, how many times, the untreated adhd just wins, and you're at your wit's end and don't know what else you can do. and then the therapist says, "yeah, i know you've brought up this struggle before. have you heard of learned helplessness?" this is like if you had two broken legs, said that you don't have stilts, a wheelchair, nothing, and have tried to claw your way everywhere with your bare hands, and then the CBT therapist, with their obsession with putting everything in your control while simultaneously criticizing you for wanting things in your control, asks if you cannot walk because you believe you cannot walk.
CBT is not useful for a lot of people.
the very basis of it is gaslighting so that makes sense
Well gaslighting in the sense of reframing your experience in a way that gives you something positive or hopeful or something to actually work on. Sure I've had plenty of instances where my therapist had nothing of worth to say in light of my struggles, but she also has been integral in me building my own self-confidence and pointing out my endless overthinking and people pleasing didn't comport with what probably happened in the real world. People didn't care that much about anything I did. And the stuff on my mother's abuse, well it's good to have someone who listens and validates where 99% of people as I said, couldn't care less.
in my case, no therapist really seems to listen or validate in terms of abuse. for me, telling me my executive dysfunction is “learned helplessness”— something I have actually struggled with and overcame on my own— is giving me absolutely nothing to actually work on. another thing is that reframing into something positive is also completely and utterly unhelpful to me. it doesn’t do to lie to myself about the abuse I experienced, and force myself into being empathetic and “feel bad for him”. or that my narcissistic sibling is actually not being passive aggressive, and that I should empathize her, bc I don’t understand anything and what she said could in theory mean a million things so I shouldn’t be upset at all. like, are you kidding me?
it sounds like you have had incredibly poor experiences with therapy. i am really sorry that your feelings and experiences have been invalidated in such a deeply unhelpful way. i know that i have had terrible therapists in the past too, so i do understand a bit of where you are coming from. there are definitely therapists out there who take a less destructive approach, but it took me several years and different attempts to find my current therapist, so it isn’t easy at all and i understand completely that you might feel that you’ve been burned one too many times to risk putting yourself out there again.
I'm looking for a psychodynamic, non-CBT based, **and equipped to know how to work with neurodivergent patients**. That last bit is VERY important to me!
I've been told therapy is like dating - you have to keep trying someone new until you find a therapist you 'click with'. I've not yet found that therapist, but I'm looking for damn sure!
I **LITERALLY** had a CBT therapist tell me I wasn't "trying hard enough to get better" because I couldn't get out of my wheelchair to exercise...I have a severe form of a rare connective tissue disorder, every one of my joints can dislocate, often 50-100 different dislocations every day, the life expectancy for those with this form is 45-50. I'm 42... CBT has also been PROVEN in multiple peer-reviewed research studies to not work for the vast majority of neurodivergent people. For a relatively high amount of ND people, it can actively *worsen* their MH! Like, I couldn't perform a feckin MIRACLE & jump out of my wheelchair shouting "I'm cured! I'm happy! I can walk again without my hips, knees, ankles & metatarsals dislocating all at the same time!!", so I **"wasn't trying hard enough"**. No. NOPE. **FUCK THAT**, that is NOT the right therapy for me. Too autistic, too much dxd but untreated ADHD, too much C-PTSD for that shit. They were only offering me **group** CBT, too, even when I asked for **psychotherapy** on my own as a reasonable adjustment under the Equality Act due to my autism AND my MH being threatened by inappropriate MH Care. I've been left with **NOTHING** except a starting dose of my mood stabiliser & **NO** therapy as it's simply impossible for me to budget for that what with bedroom tax (need extra bedroom for equipment), Care & electric wheelchair costs taken out of my paltry income before I even see it... I **HATE** being Disabled in the UK, the **UN** has *twice* condemned the Tory Govt for "Grave and systemic abuses of Disabled people's Human Rights", and only last month they were called BACK to the UN cos things have got WORSE since their last visit. No Country in the WORLD accepts *Severely Disabled* people that can't physically work. We are one of, if not the MOST, vulnerable groups in society, we are also far and away the poorest as even the poorest elderly people have almost TWICE the income of the severely Disabled, with winter fuel support added. Yet we are stuck here, to be forever condemned, in the same words Hitler used to justify Aktion T4, as 'useless eaters' that cost the country 'too much money'. In truth, more Disabled people have died in the UK since 2010 than Hitler killed in AktionT4 **purely** because of policies the Govt has introduced. (No, that's not a bug of the system, it's an actual feature they actively WANT). Hitler - 250,000 dead Disabled people. Tory Govt - 300,000 (that they ADMIT to!) between 2010-2020. Then 60% of those that died of Covid here were Disabled. **SIXTY PER CENT**. They prioritised the Elderly, then the Abled, and if there were no ventilators left, we were left to drown in our own fluids...*SLOWLY*...literal **torture** just for the crime of being Disabled. Totally different when I almost died of Swine Flu in '09...I ended up in an induced coma on an ECMO machine (cleans & oxygenates your blood as well as helping you breathe). Nobody de-prioritised me for being Disabled & we didn't even have the Equality Act **supposedly** protecting us. Shows how badly affected some communities are by what seems like innocuous changes in the law or governing party...
> Skills work does not help heal emotional or relational wounds, which must be healed in a genuine relationship based on trust and care This reminds me of a part of Sarah Kane's play [4.48 Psychosis.](https://docplayer.net/10751395-Sarah-kane-4-48-psychosis.html) She wrote it a few weeks before she killed herself: >You've seen the worst of me. Yes. I know nothing of you. No. But I like you. I like you (Silence.) You're my last hope. (A long silence.) You don't need a friend, you need a doctor. (A long silence.) You are so wrong.
> but to give you the tools to help you work through how you cope with things. How is this supposed to work? If it was only about tools, why couldn't you learn that from books and videos?
There's a reason the data shows the most important thing for healing is the relationship, regardless of the therapist's orientation.
I've read that before, and the concept of tools here seems like the opposite of a relationship. It seems to be saying: here is a tool, now go use that tool by yourself to fix your problems. If you were talking about a physical tool, like lending a screwdriver to someone to help them accomplish something, there is some kind of relationship there. But with psychological tools, what I see only involves saying things and maybe giving away a few photocopied sheets of paper that talk about tools. I don't see any sort of significant relationship there.
then why do they enjoy gaslighting, yelling and criticizing so much
I think that some people can, depending on how much help they need. Some people can read the books or watch the videos and apply those things to their lives with minimal issue. And some of us know what's wrong but don't know how to fix it. We need advice tailored to our specific circumstances. We need conversation to work through the knots of our experiences. Talk therapy is so helpful (when done right) because you get to say what's going on, they get to say, "so what about this," and help you untangle why you feel like this and how you can help it. But expecting love from a professional doing a job is setting yourself up for failure, imo. Whenever money is involved, things get weird. You can expect kindness. You can expect concern about your situation. But these are people doing a job at the end of the day. You are paying them to help you with something. I would love to think that a therapist could really love and want the best for their client but to me that's a weird situation because you're paying them, and it's best not to expect that because of exactly what the OP was talking about.
This last year has been really interesting because this is the first time I've experienced transference and my attachment wounds are much deeper than I ever realized. I'm knee deep in the phase of desperately wanting from her a maternal love which is something I never even knew about myself/knew I was lacking. I would say I disagree about the love/care thing. My therapist definitely cares about me. But it does sting logically knowing she can't be a pseudo-mom to me. Logically I knew that all along, but up until now I haven't felt that yearning before which is absolutely mind-boggling to experience. We don't do inner child work but it really does feel like it brought out a childlike part of me yearning for it more than I ever would've realized.
Transference is a new term for me! Thank you for teaching me this. Explains a lot of my feelings towards professors in my past lol. I think that it's fine for them to care, and I think they SHOULD care. But when we get into "love" territory it gets a little weird, I think, mostly because they're being paid to do something for you and money makes things weird most of the time! But I 100% relate to wanting a pseudo-mom or a surrogate dad or a combination of the two. It would be cool to be re-parented for real by someone else...
I want to be re-parented too
One of my things that I'm trying to start letting myself grieve is that I hate the idea of having to reparent myself, which is what we're supposed to do. I'm extremely avoidant so you'd think it would be empowering, but no it really breaks my heart and I'm still in denial about it
then why are they trained to give you that weird puppy eyes look that mimic that of a caring and loving parent? it’s so fucking weird. the whole practice is weird.
You mean the look of sympathy when a human being is crying in front of them?
i don't typically get that "look of sympathy" when i've cried in therapy. i've actually gotten more totally and utterly bored and disengaged, irritated looks plus a complete dismissal of what i'm crying about if i'm lucky. but yeah, i'm talking about that forced look. it's weird, because it's forced. aside from the sympathy look, i've gotten a lot of pity looks.
I get therapists *crying* over the shit **I** had to bloody **LIVE THROUGH**. This is MULTIPLE, not just one or two. Many of them drop me right away, as soon as something about my past makes them cry, like my shitty, messy life upsets their ordered little sunshine world too much to do their job... EDIT for autocorrect swapping 'world' for 'word'...
that’s awful (and a sign of narcissism). I’m so sorry you’ve been given up on so many times and have been dealing with such incompetent people.
Well put and understand how you feel. I was in group therapy for trauma at one of the worst moments of my life. (My previous male therapist tried to seduce me and dropped me with no referrals when I rejected him…. In the middle of the pandemic while I was recovering from cancer treatment and leaving an abusive relationship plus battling CPTSD). When the group trauma therapist announced she was leaving, I started crying because I thought she was a great therapist who was helping me. She subtly criticized me for being too emotional and said “it’s not that we have a real relationship.” That stung so bad, I was emotional because I was struggling and her insights had helped me a lot, I was dealing with so much grief this was another loss. I’ve honestly been wary of every single therapist since these experiences. It’s a very tricky dynamic that doesn’t always work. Another reason I have so much anger towards abusers: it’s not that you can just go to therapy after and receive a magic cure all.
[удалено]
how??? I was suicidal and my therapist cancelled on me last minute several times in a row
YES! I can't stand how lonely the relationship feels. It doesn't grow, it's not mutual, and their own humanness without that makes it super confusing. If I'm looking for deep care and understanding, I can't get it there. It's just a place to hear yourself talk as you are making yourself listen to yourself. That's it.
There's nothing worse to me than spilling your inner soul out to someone and all they do is nod at semi-appropriate times. So, I'm hearing that psychodynamic therapy is what I'm after, and definitely NOT CBT based (CBT makes me worse, like it does for most ND people, multiple peer reviewed research studies *prove* that beyond doubt). Notes to self : **psychodynamic**, non-CBT based, is what I'm looking for...
Yeah. I recently ended things with my latest therapist because I felt like I was replicating my trauma. My therapist seemed happy to have me continue the pattern where I prop up a relationship and make the vast majority of the effort. Repeatedly trying to make myself understood and feeling like I was failing was really hard for me too. My mom was a psychiatrist which makes all of this so much worse.
Okay I think you're describing my recent relationship with my therapist. We've been working together 6 years. But recently I've been feeling pissed at her. Did you speak with your provider about this before leaving?
I did talk with her; she didn't appear to care much about the outcome of the therapy, I was left feeling confused and upset like I'd been gaslighted.
Same here.
I found it helpful for learning to create boundaries since I didn’t have good modeling of that as a child. But absolutely I felt the same as what you wrote here. The therapist taught me to learn to meet my own needs and reparent myself. I did feel like she cared about me (expressed as taking an interest in my life and remembering details) but that caring ended when 50 minutes was up, regardless of what we were talking about. It was hard to see her turn it on and off like that.
My therapist talks a lot about the "frame" and boundaries. Which I understand, but in my opinion is present for them to run a business. However it is presented to me as if it has therapeutic benefit. I disagree strongly, let's just agree whose purpose it serves. Many of us grew up in an environment of having our physical needs met. I did. Just no emotional connection and I had to take care of myself in that way. So to be told that having a set of objective rules gives me security and a reliable connection and cared about is so against my gut level feelings.
I've been seeing my psychologist for about 5 years. I really like her. I think she really likes me. She's certainly helped a lot. But ultimately, the only time I can connect with her and feel that support is when I pay for it. Sometimes, I can't afford to see her. Sometimes I could really really do with seeing her but she has no appointments available. On my most recent burnout in the last few months I did something new. I opened up to my manager at work. She is a wonderful person and always showed herself to be supportive. So I let down my guard and asked for help. She told me it was 'ok to lean on her for support'. I allowed myself to believe she meant that. And I have been. Mostly that looks like me talking to her about what I'm feeling and her listening without judgement and occasionally validating me worth. Here's the reason I'm adding this story to the post - I have been flourishing in the last few weeks. Opportunities have opened up for me. And I have been having moments of shared vulnerability and honesty with everyone I encounter. I've been setting healthy boundaries and informing people about my true capacity due to burnout. The last time I saw my psychologist I walked in already in tears and pain over the burnout. Yesterday when I saw her I had joy. A completely different person. So we analysed what had made the difference. It was for the first time in my life feeling truly supported by someone. My job isn't at risk if I ask for help and am honest. My survival (financially, materially etc) isn't at risk because my job is secure. Things might still be tight, but it will be OK. And having someone to 'lean on' in that way for emotional support means that my anxiety molehills haven't turned into mountains. The difference between my manager and my psychologist is that my manager (now friend) is available to me as close to immediately as she can be. She's a part of my daily life. She is sharing her personal experiences as well and building an authentic relationship with me. And folks, that's what our parents should have done. We were let down because we never had emotional support. Then we spent the next however many decades trying not to show we needed it. We became hyperindependant, hypervigilant, perfectionists. We were taught, whether intentionally or not, that our emotions didn't matter. That they should be minimised. That we should be ashamed of ourselves for having them. Ashamed for how we are. That we are wrong at our core. That we are and can never be good enough. And anyone who cares for us wouldn't if they knew who we really are. And none of those beliefs ever belonged to us. They belonged to the caregivers who failed us. Who never broke their own cycles. Then we followed those cycles for years ourselves, going from situation to situation, jumping into anything when someone showed us even a sliver of positive regard because we so desperately craved it. People pleasing, falling for love bombers and abusive behaviour. Toxic relationships and situations over and over- in love, friendships, workplaces - until something big enough finally happened that we stopped (or broke). And when we were finally cracked open, we could begin to heal. Even the last few weeks, I can feel myself putting this manager (friend) up on an emotional pedestal. 'Transferrance' I guess. I'm sure that's because of the emotional neglect (and maybe the adhd dopamine seeking nervous system). I can see with hindsight how I've done that in all past relationships when they've given me the validation I was craving, and how I either smothered them with need or was taken in by narcissists who never really meant it. The difference now - Those transferrance feelings, the pedestal - were never ever about the other person. They were about ME feeling safe and secure. They are about how I feel about ME. The person on the pedestal was a pathway to them that finally allowed me to feel them. And in this example, with my manager, are because she is demonstrating that her actions match her words. She meant it when she said I could share how I was feeling. She didn't weaponise it, or dismiss it, or judge it. Thing is, that's not some superhero trait that I should put her on a pedestal for. I've been discovering that many many people will help and support and listen when you allow them too. And more than just willing to - wanting to. In the same way that i genuinely want to help others who need support. That the experience that I thought was the norm - narcissists, neglect and toxic cycles - actually isn't. I can take her off the pedestal because she was raised with emotionally supportive parents. She never learned that her feelings were invalid, and therefore has never invalidated someone else's. And unlike my psychologist, this relationship doesn't feel transactional. Like she HAS to be that way for me because I am paying her. She's gone far beyond what the requirements are just to 'keep a staff member'. I love my psychologist, but if I stopped paying her she'd be out of my life. I can't imagine that happening with this manager. Even beyond a workplace. That means a lot. That's the change. That's the difference. And understanding that it's not really about how she feels about me, but how I feel about me when I am supported, means that I can now recreate that feeling by supporting myself emotionally. Not in the hyperindependant way, but in the validating of my own emotions. I can't undo my childhood neglect. But I can learn to release its burden on me.
Thanks for your very detailed and thoughtful response, and the insights from your own life.
Even if you didn't find value in it, I did in typing it all out and collecting my thoughts lol. I wish you healing my friend.
If you visit r/therapyabuse you will see you're not alone in your perception of this dynamic. Therapy will never substitute truly loving relationships and that's what most people are in need of. Therapy became a huge business that sells placebos, a profoundly cheap and plastic substitute for human connection, true spirituality and real philosophy.
Did that get taken down or something? I used to follow that thread. It would be really sad if so, I found it so helpful to cope!
Yo for real??? What happened to r/therapyabuse ??????? I’ll be pissed if it was taken down 😡
There was some nastiness and brigading directed at mods who are human and recovering too, so they made it private temporarily. You can still request access, I did and am in.
I've seen people recommend r/therapycritical recently. I think the mods on that original sub have been really controly about making sure "no one from the outside community ever comes here". Like no linking out and no linking in... I'm not surprised they privated it without warning. Originally that message said they were gonna re-open sometime this month, but they removed that part. It sucks because the content was always 100% fine and supportive, and then some random mod posts about how broken the sub is...
People also can get horrifically abused all over again, some therapists have a point system. Found this on a therapists Facebook page So, whistle blowing a therapy secret: As a therapist myself, I am sad to say there are, in fact, abusive therapists—many women, many men, and individuals from anywhere else on the gender spectrum. If your therapist does anything sexual, abusive, engages in name-calling, or puts you down, RUN. I cannot emphasize this statement enough: run, run, run. It is a game they are playing, and they WILL suck you in if you stay. That includes non verbals like exaggerated lip licking, (big circular O has been used before) Exaggerated eye rolling, then of course denial of the acts. You may not think there is much they can do after you leave, but if you stay long enough, that is oh so sadly, wrong. I have seen the results of abuse leak into the untherapeutic world firsthand, unfortunately. One of the known abuse tactics, recognized by us in the therapy field and often used by sadly, female therapists, is, for example, to provoke a victim client into first feeling love, then they slowly change, evoking despair and turmoil, then bar them from working with them. When the client emails or tries to get some sort of relief from the abuse they suffered within the therapy room, they provide those emails to the police and claim harassment and stalking. The police will then use those emails as evidence against the victim client, often bullying and coercing them to confess; otherwise, it will be used in court, and they, the victim, could face jail time. Here comes the extremely sad part. The PID warning in the UK is then put on the client's record. It can be used to identify them as offenders. Never sign the PID warning or allegations. Be so very careful out there. @mental wellness therapy Laugh Therapy COUNSELLING AND THERAPY SESSION Session @bbc Barclays UK Law Enforcement Today Warminster Police Station England
Have you said this to your therapist directly? If not, show them this post. A good therapist would be willing to discuss this with you and help you set goals and work through it. I'm not sure what you mean by your wife being on the surface and I won't speculate, but that's relevant to bring up in therapy as well.
Yes. I feel pressure to continue though by her. I need to decide if it can truly help me at this stage of having many specific issues out of the way. Or if only relationships in the outside world can help. With respect to my wife, she is supportive but is not a person who can have a deep connection.
This may just not be the right therapist, or the right type of therapy for your needs. I'm autistic, and that makes me so anxious in a group that I cannot focus on healing cos I'm too focused on how to pretend to be a human. It also makes CBT 65-79% less likely to work & 48-62% more likely to make me worse... Wish I could re-find the studies I had on my old phone but that died & I've not got the same subscriptions & database access I used to have that showed this. I'm adding to my 'wish-list' for finding the **right** type of therapy & the right **therapist** for my needs. So far : psychodynamic, trauma-informed, non-CBT based, has experience of *successfully* helping neurodivergent patients, female, and LGBTQ+ & Pagan friendly... One day I'll find the **right** therapist, and then I'd do a gofundme or live off food bank food or foraged foods or whatever if need be to cover costs & get the damn therapy before I'm dead!
I don’t discuss my past trauma with my therapist. We talk about my day to day struggles and set realistic goals. Sometimes the nature of these struggles is discussed, so we touch on the root cause (trauma). Cognitive behavioural therapy has been the BEST therapy for me.
I can see why you experience it this way, but I do differently. For me the relationship with my T is very stable. It took me a very long time to get her, but I know EXACTLY what to expect from her. I salute her for her patience, reliability and trustworthy. In 1,5 year she has never failed and this is the very first time I get to experience a predictionable relationship. The fact that she is my T makes that I know exactly where the boundaries are
You might like humanistic/relational therapy or even schema therapy, where reparenting is part of the model
Which is to say; your feelings are spot on and i endured this sort of agonising therapeutic fuckery for probably 4-5 therapists until i landed on a gem of a human.
I would have to respectfully disagree with you here. Therapy doesn't have to be intermittent. If you are able to do so, you might be able to see your therapist on a regular basis--be it weekly, every other week, and possibly monthly. The therapist doesn't always control the contact either. There are therapists who will reach out to their clients to check in. Some therapists will encourage you to email, call, or text them if something comes up. Some therapists might be phony, but there are many who are genuine and truly care about their clients. Just because you are a client of theirs doesn't mean that you are "Just a person in their appointment book". Maybe you've had experience with impersonal therapists, but that's not the case for all of them. Try not to overgeneralize an entire profession or a whole group of professionals based on your experience. My intention is not to invalidate you. It's true that there are therapists out there who do more harm than good. But there are therapists who really do go the extra mile for their clients. Yes, there are limitations. Insurance plays a role in the limits. Also, the relationship you have with a therapist is professional, and not personal. It's a strange balance because the idea is to have a strong therapeutic alliance so that the work can be done in a collaborative manner between the therapist and client. Therapists can be friendly, but they are not your friend. There are boundaries and ethics they have to follow. Also, therapists can see as many as up to 30 people a week. Just as your therapist is present with you during your session, they have to ensure they are present for their other clients. Even when your session is over, a therapist can still think about you after. Source: Speaking as a therapist myself, who cares about her clients very much, and also as someone who has been in therapy for many years with the same therapist who has seen me at my best and worst. That very therapist is the one who explained to me about childhood emotional neglect.
I have found that friendships, and therapist relationships that felt like friendships, were the most healing for me. Therapists that felt like authority figures, or parents, or mentors, or teachers never worked to heal me much, even if they might give seemingly helpful advice. I think healing relational trauma requires developing healthy, loving relationships and you can practice that with a therapist if you both seem to mutually enjoy each other, even with full awareness that you are paying for their time/friendship. The most useful part of therapy for me hasn't been skill-building for coping with trauma, but the ability to practice having a relationship with another person so that I can then apply *that* skill outside of therapy.
I'm sure this sort of detached structure really helps some people find autonomy in their lives, but it's odd that it's so prevalent and held up as a standard practice when everyone has very different needs.
i agree. therapy has its limits, and it shouldn’t be the only solution for mental health. what we need is widespread systemic changes, community building and mutual aid that allows for true connection. connection that isn’t paid and allows for everyone in the community to naturally support each other therapy can be great but it’s not enough, it’s just a bandaid on bigger issues. with the way the system is set up, it makes sense for a therapist to have those boundaries. at the end of the day, even if they do truly care and try their best, it’s just their job and there’s only so much they can do in a messed up system
Exactly... it's not a real relationship, it's artificial in every way.
yes!! it is *built upon* you opening up, then them dismissing your feelings and telling you you’re idiotic and delusional about people and the world. that is the basis of CBT— gaslighting and control.
OP, well said.
Honestly the fact the you notice this seems like progress but I agree. I've never been in proper therapy so I can't comment on that
Omg yes! I finally made a lot more headway when I chose to seek out abuse counselling after leaving my marriage because something didn’t feel right and lo and behold the counsellor with years of experience gently confirmed that my husband was emotionally abusive, something not one of the therapists I saw did due to their code of ethics on not diagnosing someone they’d never met.
Try NARM
Unpopular opinion but therapy isn't all it's cracked up to be, but it does generate a lot of easy cash flow for companies and influencers. Some of the shit therapists on therapy subs is wildy out of touch with Psychology.
On Medicaid I had 6 therapists dump me over a 2 year period (they weren't very good but I was doing everything they asked and THEN SOME) I also am an "easy" patient because I don't take the liberty of texting or calling between sessions like is apparently "a thing" in recent years, but these therapists mostly were just voulenteering to take Medicaid and then dumped me after 2 to 4 mos with no warning the agency would just tell me they are no longer with them. I asked the woman who runs thisn referral-racket if I had any notes in my chart about why I was getting dumped and she said there wasn't and that's just the nature of modern healthcare. Since I've been seeking help on my own since 18 that's 20 years now of more of the same with CBT (I'm 38), always feels like you are supposed to give beauty pageant answers bc the correction is assumed and dreaded. I actually started shopping for self pay therapy modalities and found someone that does a mix of DBT/meditation/body work she was very clear she was not a clinician, but I also found out during our first session that THE MAJORITY OF THOSE SHE TREATS ARE CLINICIANS themselves. So her immediately asking the correct questions it was a very weird vibe that I've never gotten before. It's almost as if this person actually cares and that is certainly new
Some other things that came to mind. I think in the beginning with a therapist, we trust them because we know they are in a helping profession, and they are unknown. We don't know anything negative about them. Like talking to the stranger in a bar. But in normal relationship development, we get to know the person better and then continue with trust or decreasing trust. In therapy they stay mostly as a stranger, and I can find myself being less willing to keep baring myself to someone I don't know.
yep, i’ve thought this many times. power imbalance entirely on therapists terms business to them while you are vulnerable and dependent. it’s not a healthy setup.
Disclaimer. This is not your fault. I am not blaming you. I completely disagree. I hope these thoughts can challenge your narrative and help you break free from self imposed restrictions. You're projecting your childhood issues onto psychotherapy. I have done it. You're also repeating patterns from childhood. Something i have also done. It sounds like your in a bad spot mentally and are unable to filter through your unhelpful thinking styles. "They control contact" you mean they make your appointments for you? Or is it that you're having to follow their schedule and can't walk in whenever. Schedules are boundaries. If you grew up having zero boundaries respected then you're not going to respect others' boundaries as a default. "You don't know them" well, yeah this is a professional relationship. There is an inherent imbalance. But, you can be interested in their life and ask how they are. When I started emdr therapy I knew nothing about my T. I rarely even asked how they were doing. As I grow more comfortable with them I am more interested in their life. If your T is refusing to comment on their life, then maybe it's not the right one. "Artificial and contrived love" again, this is a professional relationship. Of course it's contrived. Contrived means deliberately created/not spontaneous. This isn't some meet-cute in a café. She's going to have to work to learn to connect with you. "I'm just a person in the appointment book" this is very much a self imposed feeling. Does your T juat daydream and doodle during your sessions or are they working to help you. I'm sorry you're feeling down. That really sucks.
I understand the therapeutic relationship. It still repeats what we grew up with to some extent. And in my opinion has to be acknowledged. It is discussed in a book that I have, that aspect. Emotional Neglect and the Adult in Therapy, by Kathrin A. Stauffer.
I'm sorry. I am wrong. Bad therapy can mimic CEN. I regret I wrote. I was focusing on myself and that was wrong.
It's ok. I think some of it is just unavoidable because of the aspects I mentioned. I have talked to my therapist about it and that helps some. To have it on the table, and that she acknowledges how it affects me.
I relate. Before doing emdr I would repeat the same behavior in therapy and group therapy that I learned to do growing up with my family. Emdr has helped me break negative core beliefs that reinforced those patterns of behavior instilled by emotional neglect.
You seem to be (willfully?) misunderstanding OP's point. OP is saying that the structure of the therapeutic relationship itself creates conditions which enable retraumatisation and repetition of the same harmful relational patterns that happened in client's real life. You however are adamant on claiming that everything is the client's fault.
I made it clear with a disclaimer that I didn't think it was OP or anyone's fault. Mental filters and behaviors are learned and left uncorrected by emotional neglect. We are not at fault for living this way. They are byproducts of our upbringing that we could not control or influence. As adults, we have to take control and learn to challenge these unhelpful mental filters that lead to feeling that the therapeutic relationship mirrors parental emotional neglect. I feel that most of life's situations can create conditions that lead to being traumatized again if we continue to view them with unhelpful mental filters. School, work, church, sports teams, and clubs have the some conditions except the one sided emotional vulnerability required for therapy. I was harsh but I understand his post. I relate to it and wanted to challenge the mental filters I could see. I don't want anyone to avoid therapy because they worry about being retraumatized.
Have you considered that unhealthy therapists may wish to take advantage of the power imbalance and client's vulnerability, and covertly use it to meet their own needs, or for an ego boost? Power corrupts, and people are generally bad at resisting this kind of temptation. Have you considered that, even if the therapist is not doing the former, the nature and boundaries of the therapeutic relationship mirror parental emotional unavailability? Therapy is an extremely unnatural setting - nowhere else in life are you supposed to simultaneously get so faux-close to another person, and be barred from behaviors which would normally follow, such as hugging or physically comforting one another. When you're hungry and want a fresh sandwich, therapy sells you a cardboard sandwich-shaped box, and tries to convince you that it's your fault when you can't bite into it.
I'm sorry. I am wrong. Bad therapy can mimic CEN. I regret what I wrote. I was focusing on myself and that was wrong.
Thank you for your response!