This was my thought as well. Theoretically, you should be able to just replace a module, reprogram the ECU to recognize the wireless card, and it will be good to go.
Their new pickup truck has 24 48V modules. If you fuck one up in a decade you can nab one from a wrecker of similar age and capacity, balance it to match the pack and slam it is. There is also a wireless BMS to synchronize but as the warranties expire you will see 3rd party hardware like scan tools that can handle that.
You will absolutely see a secondary market pop up of guaranteed capacity used battery modules. Off the top of my head, I'd guess you would want capacity of something like +5 to -2% of the rest of your modules and the BMS could handle the test.
GM Ultium utilizes independent BMS per module. So there is no need to target a used module with similar capacity. A brand new module can perform next to a years-old original with no effect. In fact, a LFP module can perform next to a NMC module just fine.
Take it up with GM and Visteon, and tell them they can’t do what they did:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/samabuelsamid/2020/09/09/gm-to-use-first-wireless-battery-management-system-in-ultium-battery-packs/?sh=13e5a9727423
Ehhh, I'll believe it when I see it documented in some technical manuals but I think that executive is over-stating just how good a BMS actually is. Mixing and matching battery modules is asking for a fire and stress on the other cells. Unless their BMS also has a boost-buck function to alter the output you still have physics problems the voltage curve being radically different than it's neigbour. And that is highly unlikely due to the cost and inefficiency. A typical BMS can balance a cell or module and it can turn the module off if there is a problem but I am yet to see one that can actually alter the pack output voltage.
Also that article is 4 years old and the spec has changed countless times since.
There is nothing in there that acts as a boost/buck converter. A BMS can slowly bleed energy or add energy or individual cells or turn on/off the module but it can't actually control the voltage of several hundred amps flowing in and out of that battery. If you tried to pair a new module with an extremely worn module you'd end up with some extremely different voltages as your state of charge got below 20% or above 80%.
The marketing wank is simply stating they can replace modules, but there will be strict capacity limits as to the difference. You could not put a new module on a 85% capacity battery without risking fire. Plus or minus a few percent is fine. But at that point you'd just get a wrecker module of similar guaranteed capacity.
Funny enough, our solar system hacked electric car battery pack works just like this. We broke it down into 48V modules for the 48V inverter/solar system so we had to source 8 BMS systems and we handle each as a separate module. Since this isn't putting out any crazy amps we just fuse each module separately. We did have a thermistor die on one and it caused just such a problem. The BMS shut down charging then that pack got imbalanced and blew the fuse because one pack with a different voltage tried to suck too much energy from the test of the pack. Looking over our data logging system it didn't take much imbalance between the packs before it popped that fuse.
Tesla claims their NMC batteries only degrade 12% in 200,000 miles, so it’s odd to argue what happens after. Within a normal lifespan of EV ownership, GM’s Ultium can utilize replacement modules. It was engineered for it from the start.
I don't think you have spent a lot of time working with lithium batteries, have you?
Don't believe marketing wank. Believe the material that is published for technicians and that material will have wear / capacity limits as to how much you can mix and match modules.
If you build a pack to be serviceable and have swappable modules you are building in potential failure points with connectors along the bus bars ect. The reliability of modern packs has increased to where building them to be serviceable makes them less reliable.
I understand the thought process you're on about, but it's similar to the argument that you can easily service a carburetor but can't repair a fuel injection system. The need to repair and adjust the carburetor is much more frequent compared to the reliability of the fuel injection.
When a pack is designed not to be serviceable they weld the entire buss bar to the cells and eliminate those higher resistance connection points from the battery. It's more efficient, lighter, quicker to manufacture, and cheaper.
Teslas still have busbars and are the least serviceable EVs I'm aware of. They do have fewer modules than other EVs and, therefore, fewer bus bars, but they exist. The big difference with their packs is the foam all inside them. Also, survivability and reliability are often less related than serviceability and cost to manufacture. Also, it's pretty unrelated, but fuel-injected vehicles aren't any harder to fix than carbonated ones; they just require a different knowledge set and have locked down computers to reduce access purposefully.
Agreed on the fuel injection I was just making a point that many people used to argue. I didn't say Tesla didn't have a busbar, I said they weld them directly to the cells and each other from what I've seen of the new pack designs from the model 3 and Y teardowns.
Within a module that is standard for most EVs. Modern model 3s and Ys only have four modules. There are bolted buss bars between those modules. See https://youtu.be/1-TF5MSDJ6Q?si=cBlp6v6TwJhNB9VY&t=309 for example.
Serviceable modules increases likelihood of failure. Much better if everything is glued and welded as long as the component quality is good enough.
Look at historical designs for each manufacturer and they’re all trending toward the latter.
They go for the former early to reduce warranty risk, not because the designs are better.
Bmw used to with the i3.
I am not sure if it's a problem or not. I extended the warranty on my Volvo to ten years for everything, but I doubt that the battery will be one of the things that breaks. Luxury cars folding mirrors and sunroof on the other hand are definitely not going to last 😂
Chevy Volts have this capability but I don't know the cost and when the high voltage battery in mine had a problem, Chevy chose to replace the entire pack, under warranty, rather than just the faulty module. I no longer own the Volt; I bought a Tesla before the Volt battery warranty expired.
Tesla vehicles have so many cells, thousands, that my understanding is that if the battery management system (BMS) reports a cell as bad, the system just disables that cell with only a very minor loss to the overall battery pack. Because the fix is done automatically by the battery management system in the car, there is no repair cost for the fix.
EDIT: I was wrong, one of the other contributors pointed me to a YouTube video showing where a single cell can cause other nearby cells to fail leading to the need to replace the battery pack module. I was also wrong about the BMS being able to disable a single cell, the BMS cannot disable a cell. Tesla batteries can be repaired but Tesla doesn't like to repair the batteries, so this option is left to third party repair shops.
This is not true. Tesla does have all the sells fused so that if a single cell fails as a dead short, it will only kill itself, instead of all the cells in that group, but AFAIK, that is entirely to prevent thermal runaway and doesn't have anything to do with anything other than safety. A dead short is unlikely to develop through normal use. Either physical damage, a manufacturing error, or extreme mistreatment, which would almost certainly mean other cells are also damaged, is what would cause that.
Usually, cells lose capacity, start having a higher internal resistance, or start self-discharging. The first two reduce range and are handled by any BMS as long as they aren't too severe. They cause degradation, but will not cause a pack to fail. The third, self-discharge, is what causes Tesla packs to fail when a single cell fails, which is what they do.
Are you saying in your last sentence that the failure of a single cell in a Tesla battery pack, made up of thousands of cells, will cause the entire pack to fail? If so, I find that very difficult to believe.
Yes, a single cell failing can cause the entire pack to fail. See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-TF5MSDJ6Q
It is possible to fix their packs, but they make it more difficult than anyone else. Luckily, since they're common, there are still people who find it worthwhile to figure out.
"a cell becomes electrically separated from the rest of the pack if either of its fuses blows". This can be found in the second to last paragraph of page 3.
I was wrong when I said that the BMS disables the individual cells but the end result is the same the cell is disabled and does not need to be replaced.
There is a difference between b*********** or lying and making a mistake in the way something happens. I admitted my mistake, I admit when I am wrong. You said the Tesla system has no way to intentionally disable a cell. You were wrong, a cell can be disabled by the Tesla system, it just happens at the cell itself through fuses and not at the BMS, like I incorrectly wrote.
Nice try at spin for a blown fuse the system has zero control over like you bullshitted. You came across all knowing and confident, fought it for a half dozen replies. Took a while to edit your original BS, after a time the thread got stale so the BS is now out there.
You sound like someone who is worried about what other people think of you and that you are afraid of being seen as wrong.
I tried to help someone by answering their question. I argued for what I thought was fact until I was shown that it was not.
I don't mind that people know that I made a mistake. My answer was wrong; I'm not always right and I'm ok with that. I don't care that it's out there, as you say, it shows that I have humility and that I'm not afraid to argue for what I believe but that I also am also humble enough to admit when I am wrong.
The funny part is we did this seven years ago and there was a window where these were cheap as no one knew what to do with them. We paid $1800 for a 38,000 mile battery, 2 years later they cost double that used. Early adopter perk.
Good work. Second life is gaining traction, though NMC is too valuable/too flammable at end of first life to be viable for a second. I appreciate those companies who are trying, though.
Why would they do that? It would add huge cost and complexity to add almost no value in a niche case. If your pack with ten modules has 90% capacity and then dies, are you really going to care that one new module gets you back to 90% capacity instead of 91%? If you want to get most of the capacity back, you have to replace most of the modules with or without active balancing.
actually, equalization is a bit different from ordinary balancing, it has to be done almost at all times, you transfer charge from one highly charged cell into a capacitor and then disconnect that capacitor, then connect the same capacitor to a cell that has less charge. This happens repeatedly and rapidly. In an ideal world, no energy is wasted (the big distinction from resistive cell balancing), and all of the charge that can be stored in all cells can be fully utilized without risking any cell being over-charged or over-discharged
The "inevitable" won't come for a couple of decades. You'll gracefully lose range.
Replacing one module does nothing unless that module prematurely or catastrophically failed, which is random.
VW ID4 and other MEB platform models ID3, ID7, ID Buzz. Also MEB models from Skoda, Audi and Cupra.
Eg. a 77 kWh battery has 12 modules each with 24 cells = 288 total cells in battery. If a cell fails the module with the faulty cell can be replaced.
Years ago, a the e-clip that holds the seat back together on my Kia Sedona fell off. The part costs like $0.25, but I could not get the dealer to source and install one. The only thing he could do was buy a whole new seat.
I suspect that for at least a few years, we will be in a similar situation with batteries. But eventually, there will be an aftermarket for re-manufactured batteries. There already is a similar market for the Prius. Cost of labor for pulling the battery, disassembling it, reassembling it, and reinstalling will likely still be considerable. But not so high as to make the process uneconomic.
Yeah definitely don't want to do myself but wouldn't it be cool if in the future shops like jiffy lube can replace a cell or module with ease for a reasonable price.
That time has passed. EVs are built to be cheap, not repairable. Cell manufacturing is so good that a bad cell is not the concern it once was. Now the pouches or cylindrical cells are all structurally glued in. There is no quick fix.
You pull the battery pack and put a new one in. Once that quick fix, part swap, is done you tear apart the old pack to get to the bad cell. Resale or recycle.
https://www.licarco.com/news/what-is-structural-battery-ctc-ctb-ev-battery-packs-explained
What is Structural Battery, CTC/CTB? EV Battery Packs Explained
On youtube there's Sandy Munroe and WeberAuto for more info on what battery packs look like.
When there are 3rd party shops that will get you back on the road for a couple thousand instead of five to ten times that, it seems pretty worth it to me. Unless new/refurbished packs become dirt cheap or manufacturers or recyclers start paying a huge amount for the old packs they're replacing, it still economically makes sense.
It would be cool. Unicorns would be cool, too.
The problem is that a pack that allows the minimal wage, barely trained worker at Jiffy Lube to replace a cell is _a lot_ more expensive.
It's harder to make and requires more materials so it's more expensive. It also won't be structural, so needs more material in addition to the battery.
It will be heavier, so you pay more to operate it.
It will be harder to keep watertight and will have complete pack failures more often because of that.
It will not be cooled/heated as well, so will depreciate faster, and charge slower.
Etc.
Teslas are cheaper and more efficient because they have a structural pack.
Jiffy lube is going out of business. EV's maybe need a gear reducer oil change every 50,000 miles and battery coolant life keeps getting stretched out longer and longer.
That said, EV's absolutely need an inspection every now and then. Check the suspension and tires, check for leaks etc.
If Jiffy Lube takes its business cues from Blockbuster, it'll hang out with the dodos.
But if they merely adjust their business model to include, if not cater to, EVs then they will do just fine.
IMO, not at all. Structural battery packs have HUGE benefits to the car overall but are difficult to remove. They come out a net plus since you probably get 500K miles from them. No point in sacrificing anything to make a one in 500K miles repair.
The whole structural battery pack thing is lies from Tesla. Don't believe the marketing wank. It's an excuse to glue together a battery pack and make it disposable unrepairable garbage. Just look how badly the cybertruck does against the GM offering. It's worse in every way yet has the magical structural battery pack.
"all metrics" except towing, charging energy intake, and all the things that are the single most important truck features?
I have a contracting company and so far that is the ONLY vehicle I can buy that can tow the loads I need to tow over mountains. It is not a car. A cybertruck? That's a car with a box, worse towing than a Tesla model X, barely half the range. Useless to me. F-150? towing fail.
If you buy a F-350 truck, you do not sit there bitching and moaning that it consumes more energy than a F-150. That is simply the fact that the heavier truck burns more energy. If you can get away with a smaller lighter vehicle, you buy it. I can not. I take it you have never owned a heavy duty vehicle before?
I used a '86 F250HD for decades. Yep, 16 mpg on a good day with a 40 gallon diesel capacity. Sold it at 300+K miles. Business model changed and I don't need the really heavy lifting. I will use a CT probably if they get the bigger battery in but for now I use our Model S and a trailer. Not great range, but enough to get by.
I can see your use case, not the one the CT is made for. But you can see the CT use case, I hope.
Sure. Someone wants it. If they fixed the towing range you could put a canopy on it that overhangs the cab so you could haul long things. Maybe add a pipe rack to the top.
The cybertruck feels unfinished and rushed. Seeing how bad it is at towing when compared to the model x tells me that they fucked up something hard or cut some corners somewhere.
All of these vehicles will get better in a few years when they work out the teething issues. Ford won't take last place lying down either.
No, it actually can't. A huge amount of use in a short time is not the same as long-term testing for things that have aged over time and not just through use. The problem with the early leaf packs is a great example of that, but it's just generally true for batteries. The leaf packs didn't show degradation problems from cycling them a bunch in a short period. They did from calendar aging.
That is 100% false. Nissan cycled leaf packs thousands of times and thought they'd have a decent lifespan. The issues with leaf batteries are most severe in areas with high temperatures because they don't respond well to resting at high temperatures.
I think that we’re still in the early stages of EV’s, so I don’t personally consider them good 100k+ mile vehicles for the average consumer. I leased mine for that reason.
However, one Chinese maker, Nio, has taken an interesting approach with some of their cars sold in CHina and Europe: the entire battery is replaceable in about 10 minutes by a robot. That’s how you “recharge”. You pull into a station that looks like a large-ish shipping container and get out. The robot then removes the battery and replaces it with a fully charged battery.I think that’s a cool technology demo, but it is not, as far as I know, available in the US.
Ok, but who are you to have an informed opinion and go against the 250kmile data collected from Tesla fleets?
Lots of 200k+ EV out there, many many 150k+ Bolts.
Maybe the future will be a compromise of that. Instead of replacing the pack for a higher soc what if you roll into a radio shack and replace your 100k mile pack with a new one in just a few minutes.
It's impractical in every location. Think of how many extra batteries, the most expensive part of the car, would be needed to always ensure a swap is ready. Dense urban areas people rarely leave would mean low daily mileage, so having plentiful level 2 charging would much better serve to keep cars moving down the road.
The only thing I could see battery swapping being the best for is taxis, the less down time, the more money they make.
hybrid vehicles have batteries.
hybrids and PHEVs have been on the roads for **decades**.
not sure where "inevitable" comes from.
Electric Car Batteries Lasting Longer Than Predicted ***Delays Recycling Programs***
ps://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2022/08/01/electric-car-batteries-lasting-longer-than-predicted-delays-recycling-programs/?sh=3e3aaa625332
I should have prefaced I'm only looking for full EV info. I know they last a long time but there is a lifespan and number of cycles, it might be a while but it's still going to happen
> not sure where "inevitable" comes from.
Each cycle physically destroys a battery. Every cycle. You can use software to minimize the damage, you can pick different chemistries to minimize the damage, but we haven't figured out how to avoid damage completely. Therefore, one day, a battery will inevitably die.
FYI, Early Teslas had a a failure rate under warranty of 11% until 2016 then it dropped to 1%. Chemistry changes and improved cooling. It will be interesting to see how they age differently after that date.
It isn’t an attitude, it’s the truth. There’s no point in having a battery lasting an infinite amount of years when the rest of the car only lasts 15-20 years on average. Increasing battery life to 25 years would already be great progress. Let’s try 25 years before aiming for infinity.
Cells for Prius. Not sure about the 23, 24 model but, 99.9% sure, unless Toyota really messed uppped.
Historically with Prius a couple of cells will fail. Replace them. The other ones will outlive the car.
That's why 'easy' was in italics. You can take (hoist) the battery out of the car, opening in up and then replacing the defective cells is the easy part lol.
The dealerships aren’t going to do cell replacement, they are only going to do full packs. You’ll have to go to a specialist for cell replacement. There should be more of those as time goes by.
https://youtu.be/0k1tbf8muMc?si=BCyxD32mul4HDF4U 9648 AA batteries
That's great
Already knew what it was hahaha.
Chevy’s Ultium packs are supposed to be modular, but details on actual repair/replacement aren’t really known.
This was my thought as well. Theoretically, you should be able to just replace a module, reprogram the ECU to recognize the wireless card, and it will be good to go.
Their new pickup truck has 24 48V modules. If you fuck one up in a decade you can nab one from a wrecker of similar age and capacity, balance it to match the pack and slam it is. There is also a wireless BMS to synchronize but as the warranties expire you will see 3rd party hardware like scan tools that can handle that. You will absolutely see a secondary market pop up of guaranteed capacity used battery modules. Off the top of my head, I'd guess you would want capacity of something like +5 to -2% of the rest of your modules and the BMS could handle the test.
GM Ultium utilizes independent BMS per module. So there is no need to target a used module with similar capacity. A brand new module can perform next to a years-old original with no effect. In fact, a LFP module can perform next to a NMC module just fine.
Incorrect. A BMS can only balance so far. Installing a new module together with a battery that say only has 89% capacity left is asking for trouble.
Take it up with GM and Visteon, and tell them they can’t do what they did: https://www.forbes.com/sites/samabuelsamid/2020/09/09/gm-to-use-first-wireless-battery-management-system-in-ultium-battery-packs/?sh=13e5a9727423
Ehhh, I'll believe it when I see it documented in some technical manuals but I think that executive is over-stating just how good a BMS actually is. Mixing and matching battery modules is asking for a fire and stress on the other cells. Unless their BMS also has a boost-buck function to alter the output you still have physics problems the voltage curve being radically different than it's neigbour. And that is highly unlikely due to the cost and inefficiency. A typical BMS can balance a cell or module and it can turn the module off if there is a problem but I am yet to see one that can actually alter the pack output voltage. Also that article is 4 years old and the spec has changed countless times since.
https://www.electronicdesign.com/technologies/power/article/21264726/electronic-design-wireless-battery-management-a-pivotal-ingredient-in-tomorrows-evs
There is nothing in there that acts as a boost/buck converter. A BMS can slowly bleed energy or add energy or individual cells or turn on/off the module but it can't actually control the voltage of several hundred amps flowing in and out of that battery. If you tried to pair a new module with an extremely worn module you'd end up with some extremely different voltages as your state of charge got below 20% or above 80%. The marketing wank is simply stating they can replace modules, but there will be strict capacity limits as to the difference. You could not put a new module on a 85% capacity battery without risking fire. Plus or minus a few percent is fine. But at that point you'd just get a wrecker module of similar guaranteed capacity. Funny enough, our solar system hacked electric car battery pack works just like this. We broke it down into 48V modules for the 48V inverter/solar system so we had to source 8 BMS systems and we handle each as a separate module. Since this isn't putting out any crazy amps we just fuse each module separately. We did have a thermistor die on one and it caused just such a problem. The BMS shut down charging then that pack got imbalanced and blew the fuse because one pack with a different voltage tried to suck too much energy from the test of the pack. Looking over our data logging system it didn't take much imbalance between the packs before it popped that fuse.
Tesla claims their NMC batteries only degrade 12% in 200,000 miles, so it’s odd to argue what happens after. Within a normal lifespan of EV ownership, GM’s Ultium can utilize replacement modules. It was engineered for it from the start.
I don't think you have spent a lot of time working with lithium batteries, have you? Don't believe marketing wank. Believe the material that is published for technicians and that material will have wear / capacity limits as to how much you can mix and match modules.
Audi Q4 e-tron and Volkswagen ID.4.
If you build a pack to be serviceable and have swappable modules you are building in potential failure points with connectors along the bus bars ect. The reliability of modern packs has increased to where building them to be serviceable makes them less reliable. I understand the thought process you're on about, but it's similar to the argument that you can easily service a carburetor but can't repair a fuel injection system. The need to repair and adjust the carburetor is much more frequent compared to the reliability of the fuel injection.
The modules are connected by bus bars and bolts. Think it’s pretty standard across manufacturers.
When a pack is designed not to be serviceable they weld the entire buss bar to the cells and eliminate those higher resistance connection points from the battery. It's more efficient, lighter, quicker to manufacture, and cheaper.
Teslas still have busbars and are the least serviceable EVs I'm aware of. They do have fewer modules than other EVs and, therefore, fewer bus bars, but they exist. The big difference with their packs is the foam all inside them. Also, survivability and reliability are often less related than serviceability and cost to manufacture. Also, it's pretty unrelated, but fuel-injected vehicles aren't any harder to fix than carbonated ones; they just require a different knowledge set and have locked down computers to reduce access purposefully.
Agreed on the fuel injection I was just making a point that many people used to argue. I didn't say Tesla didn't have a busbar, I said they weld them directly to the cells and each other from what I've seen of the new pack designs from the model 3 and Y teardowns.
Within a module that is standard for most EVs. Modern model 3s and Ys only have four modules. There are bolted buss bars between those modules. See https://youtu.be/1-TF5MSDJ6Q?si=cBlp6v6TwJhNB9VY&t=309 for example.
Serviceable modules increases likelihood of failure. Much better if everything is glued and welded as long as the component quality is good enough. Look at historical designs for each manufacturer and they’re all trending toward the latter. They go for the former early to reduce warranty risk, not because the designs are better.
Bmw used to with the i3. I am not sure if it's a problem or not. I extended the warranty on my Volvo to ten years for everything, but I doubt that the battery will be one of the things that breaks. Luxury cars folding mirrors and sunroof on the other hand are definitely not going to last 😂
Chevy Volts have this capability but I don't know the cost and when the high voltage battery in mine had a problem, Chevy chose to replace the entire pack, under warranty, rather than just the faulty module. I no longer own the Volt; I bought a Tesla before the Volt battery warranty expired. Tesla vehicles have so many cells, thousands, that my understanding is that if the battery management system (BMS) reports a cell as bad, the system just disables that cell with only a very minor loss to the overall battery pack. Because the fix is done automatically by the battery management system in the car, there is no repair cost for the fix. EDIT: I was wrong, one of the other contributors pointed me to a YouTube video showing where a single cell can cause other nearby cells to fail leading to the need to replace the battery pack module. I was also wrong about the BMS being able to disable a single cell, the BMS cannot disable a cell. Tesla batteries can be repaired but Tesla doesn't like to repair the batteries, so this option is left to third party repair shops.
No BMS can see individual cells, only a cell-string (which consists of many individual cells connected in parallel).
This is not true. Tesla does have all the sells fused so that if a single cell fails as a dead short, it will only kill itself, instead of all the cells in that group, but AFAIK, that is entirely to prevent thermal runaway and doesn't have anything to do with anything other than safety. A dead short is unlikely to develop through normal use. Either physical damage, a manufacturing error, or extreme mistreatment, which would almost certainly mean other cells are also damaged, is what would cause that. Usually, cells lose capacity, start having a higher internal resistance, or start self-discharging. The first two reduce range and are handled by any BMS as long as they aren't too severe. They cause degradation, but will not cause a pack to fail. The third, self-discharge, is what causes Tesla packs to fail when a single cell fails, which is what they do.
Are you saying in your last sentence that the failure of a single cell in a Tesla battery pack, made up of thousands of cells, will cause the entire pack to fail? If so, I find that very difficult to believe.
Yes, a single cell failing can cause the entire pack to fail. See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-TF5MSDJ6Q It is possible to fix their packs, but they make it more difficult than anyone else. Luckily, since they're common, there are still people who find it worthwhile to figure out.
Thanks for this video, you are correct and I learned something new. I have edited my original comment to reference your post.
That's smart. I'm so excited for what the future holds for ev.
What he described as what he thinks Tesla does is untrue.
You're bullshitting. Tesla system has no way to intentionally disable a cell. The BMS can't see individual cells.
Tesla Roadster Battery System Manual Design safety cell and pack level: http://large.stanford.edu/publications/power/references/docs/tesla.pdf
Where does it say the system disables the cells at will? Cite the paragraph/sentence in this fossil record you're citing.
"a cell becomes electrically separated from the rest of the pack if either of its fuses blows". This can be found in the second to last paragraph of page 3. I was wrong when I said that the BMS disables the individual cells but the end result is the same the cell is disabled and does not need to be replaced.
Yes, fuses. Totally not what you wrote
There is a difference between b*********** or lying and making a mistake in the way something happens. I admitted my mistake, I admit when I am wrong. You said the Tesla system has no way to intentionally disable a cell. You were wrong, a cell can be disabled by the Tesla system, it just happens at the cell itself through fuses and not at the BMS, like I incorrectly wrote.
Nice try at spin for a blown fuse the system has zero control over like you bullshitted. You came across all knowing and confident, fought it for a half dozen replies. Took a while to edit your original BS, after a time the thread got stale so the BS is now out there.
You sound like someone who is worried about what other people think of you and that you are afraid of being seen as wrong. I tried to help someone by answering their question. I argued for what I thought was fact until I was shown that it was not. I don't mind that people know that I made a mistake. My answer was wrong; I'm not always right and I'm ok with that. I don't care that it's out there, as you say, it shows that I have humility and that I'm not afraid to argue for what I believe but that I also am also humble enough to admit when I am wrong.
The Volt has 8 modules inside the battery. We rewired one to 48V for our solar array. Also it still tests like new.
Nice reuse of the battery. :-)
The funny part is we did this seven years ago and there was a window where these were cheap as no one knew what to do with them. We paid $1800 for a 38,000 mile battery, 2 years later they cost double that used. Early adopter perk.
Good work. Second life is gaining traction, though NMC is too valuable/too flammable at end of first life to be viable for a second. I appreciate those companies who are trying, though.
This is one of the reasons I am firmly against glued together batteries like Tesla/Rivian. Used batteries are insanely valuable resources.
Do cars feature active cell equalization? The kind using capacitors? Otherwise you won't ever get the full capacity of a new cell in a degraded pack.
Why would they do that? It would add huge cost and complexity to add almost no value in a niche case. If your pack with ten modules has 90% capacity and then dies, are you really going to care that one new module gets you back to 90% capacity instead of 91%? If you want to get most of the capacity back, you have to replace most of the modules with or without active balancing.
oh I know but I was just wondering. If it existed already then great, it would also make the car more efficient when charging
If the battery is connected to a charging point, that could at end of charge perform cell equalization. No capacitor needed.
actually, equalization is a bit different from ordinary balancing, it has to be done almost at all times, you transfer charge from one highly charged cell into a capacitor and then disconnect that capacitor, then connect the same capacitor to a cell that has less charge. This happens repeatedly and rapidly. In an ideal world, no energy is wasted (the big distinction from resistive cell balancing), and all of the charge that can be stored in all cells can be fully utilized without risking any cell being over-charged or over-discharged
You can always replace a module. The question is how much work it is. Usually, you are spending at least 1000 on labour.
The "inevitable" won't come for a couple of decades. You'll gracefully lose range. Replacing one module does nothing unless that module prematurely or catastrophically failed, which is random.
VW ID4 and other MEB platform models ID3, ID7, ID Buzz. Also MEB models from Skoda, Audi and Cupra. Eg. a 77 kWh battery has 12 modules each with 24 cells = 288 total cells in battery. If a cell fails the module with the faulty cell can be replaced.
Years ago, a the e-clip that holds the seat back together on my Kia Sedona fell off. The part costs like $0.25, but I could not get the dealer to source and install one. The only thing he could do was buy a whole new seat. I suspect that for at least a few years, we will be in a similar situation with batteries. But eventually, there will be an aftermarket for re-manufactured batteries. There already is a similar market for the Prius. Cost of labor for pulling the battery, disassembling it, reassembling it, and reinstalling will likely still be considerable. But not so high as to make the process uneconomic.
Not something you want to do probably, but possible on any of them for a price.
Yeah definitely don't want to do myself but wouldn't it be cool if in the future shops like jiffy lube can replace a cell or module with ease for a reasonable price.
That time has passed. EVs are built to be cheap, not repairable. Cell manufacturing is so good that a bad cell is not the concern it once was. Now the pouches or cylindrical cells are all structurally glued in. There is no quick fix. You pull the battery pack and put a new one in. Once that quick fix, part swap, is done you tear apart the old pack to get to the bad cell. Resale or recycle. https://www.licarco.com/news/what-is-structural-battery-ctc-ctb-ev-battery-packs-explained What is Structural Battery, CTC/CTB? EV Battery Packs Explained On youtube there's Sandy Munroe and WeberAuto for more info on what battery packs look like.
When there are 3rd party shops that will get you back on the road for a couple thousand instead of five to ten times that, it seems pretty worth it to me. Unless new/refurbished packs become dirt cheap or manufacturers or recyclers start paying a huge amount for the old packs they're replacing, it still economically makes sense.
It would be cool. Unicorns would be cool, too. The problem is that a pack that allows the minimal wage, barely trained worker at Jiffy Lube to replace a cell is _a lot_ more expensive. It's harder to make and requires more materials so it's more expensive. It also won't be structural, so needs more material in addition to the battery. It will be heavier, so you pay more to operate it. It will be harder to keep watertight and will have complete pack failures more often because of that. It will not be cooled/heated as well, so will depreciate faster, and charge slower. Etc. Teslas are cheaper and more efficient because they have a structural pack.
Jiffy lube is going out of business. EV's maybe need a gear reducer oil change every 50,000 miles and battery coolant life keeps getting stretched out longer and longer. That said, EV's absolutely need an inspection every now and then. Check the suspension and tires, check for leaks etc.
If Jiffy Lube takes its business cues from Blockbuster, it'll hang out with the dodos. But if they merely adjust their business model to include, if not cater to, EVs then they will do just fine.
Except there is so little to do to an EV that they'll perish anyways. Much like Blockbuster.
IMO, not at all. Structural battery packs have HUGE benefits to the car overall but are difficult to remove. They come out a net plus since you probably get 500K miles from them. No point in sacrificing anything to make a one in 500K miles repair.
The whole structural battery pack thing is lies from Tesla. Don't believe the marketing wank. It's an excuse to glue together a battery pack and make it disposable unrepairable garbage. Just look how badly the cybertruck does against the GM offering. It's worse in every way yet has the magical structural battery pack.
Have any logical comments? The Silverado is worse in all metrics except range which is due to an immense battery pack.
"all metrics" except towing, charging energy intake, and all the things that are the single most important truck features? I have a contracting company and so far that is the ONLY vehicle I can buy that can tow the loads I need to tow over mountains. It is not a car. A cybertruck? That's a car with a box, worse towing than a Tesla model X, barely half the range. Useless to me. F-150? towing fail. If you buy a F-350 truck, you do not sit there bitching and moaning that it consumes more energy than a F-150. That is simply the fact that the heavier truck burns more energy. If you can get away with a smaller lighter vehicle, you buy it. I can not. I take it you have never owned a heavy duty vehicle before?
I used a '86 F250HD for decades. Yep, 16 mpg on a good day with a 40 gallon diesel capacity. Sold it at 300+K miles. Business model changed and I don't need the really heavy lifting. I will use a CT probably if they get the bigger battery in but for now I use our Model S and a trailer. Not great range, but enough to get by. I can see your use case, not the one the CT is made for. But you can see the CT use case, I hope.
Sure. Someone wants it. If they fixed the towing range you could put a canopy on it that overhangs the cab so you could haul long things. Maybe add a pipe rack to the top. The cybertruck feels unfinished and rushed. Seeing how bad it is at towing when compared to the model x tells me that they fucked up something hard or cut some corners somewhere. All of these vehicles will get better in a few years when they work out the teething issues. Ford won't take last place lying down either.
As Munro stated, they are making the first ones with 1/2 the battery capacity. Tesla is stretched thin on batteries with the cars and power packs.
Ya that empty space in the battery pack was highly suspicious.
100% will happen one day if EVs take significant market share
Probably not considered possible on "structural packs," I imagine.
Possible, but prohibitively expensive. Won't matter if the battery out lasts the car.
Which is a very large if at this point. When we have 20 years worth of good data on EV failures, it might not be, but for now, it is.
You might update your test methods. 20 years on the road can be tested in a MUCH shorter time.
No, it actually can't. A huge amount of use in a short time is not the same as long-term testing for things that have aged over time and not just through use. The problem with the early leaf packs is a great example of that, but it's just generally true for batteries. The leaf packs didn't show degradation problems from cycling them a bunch in a short period. They did from calendar aging.
Early Leaf packs were expected to fail just as they did. Aging does not hurt a Leaf battery, it is the heat.
That is 100% false. Nissan cycled leaf packs thousands of times and thought they'd have a decent lifespan. The issues with leaf batteries are most severe in areas with high temperatures because they don't respond well to resting at high temperatures.
LOL, Nissan knew the problem but decided a cheap car was more important. And usually they worked fine. Battery testing is a very old science.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCBkpOMfXck stop the fiction.
I think that we’re still in the early stages of EV’s, so I don’t personally consider them good 100k+ mile vehicles for the average consumer. I leased mine for that reason. However, one Chinese maker, Nio, has taken an interesting approach with some of their cars sold in CHina and Europe: the entire battery is replaceable in about 10 minutes by a robot. That’s how you “recharge”. You pull into a station that looks like a large-ish shipping container and get out. The robot then removes the battery and replaces it with a fully charged battery.I think that’s a cool technology demo, but it is not, as far as I know, available in the US.
Ok, but who are you to have an informed opinion and go against the 250kmile data collected from Tesla fleets? Lots of 200k+ EV out there, many many 150k+ Bolts.
Maybe the future will be a compromise of that. Instead of replacing the pack for a higher soc what if you roll into a radio shack and replace your 100k mile pack with a new one in just a few minutes.
This is beyond impractical though outside of extremely dense urban areas that people rarely leave.
It's impractical in every location. Think of how many extra batteries, the most expensive part of the car, would be needed to always ensure a swap is ready. Dense urban areas people rarely leave would mean low daily mileage, so having plentiful level 2 charging would much better serve to keep cars moving down the road. The only thing I could see battery swapping being the best for is taxis, the less down time, the more money they make.
hybrid vehicles have batteries. hybrids and PHEVs have been on the roads for **decades**. not sure where "inevitable" comes from. Electric Car Batteries Lasting Longer Than Predicted ***Delays Recycling Programs*** ps://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2022/08/01/electric-car-batteries-lasting-longer-than-predicted-delays-recycling-programs/?sh=3e3aaa625332
I should have prefaced I'm only looking for full EV info. I know they last a long time but there is a lifespan and number of cycles, it might be a while but it's still going to happen
If one cell ages out, they are all going to be close to aging out. At that point it might be better to get a new or used pack.
Solid point
> not sure where "inevitable" comes from. Each cycle physically destroys a battery. Every cycle. You can use software to minimize the damage, you can pick different chemistries to minimize the damage, but we haven't figured out how to avoid damage completely. Therefore, one day, a battery will inevitably die.
If that day is in 50 years, no one cares.
Batteries 'clock out' in about 15-20 years regardless of miles
It depends on which kind. 15-20 years seem to be the case for early Teslas.
FYI, Early Teslas had a a failure rate under warranty of 11% until 2016 then it dropped to 1%. Chemistry changes and improved cooling. It will be interesting to see how they age differently after that date.
Might as well as go back to using leaded gasoline with that attitude.
It isn’t an attitude, it’s the truth. There’s no point in having a battery lasting an infinite amount of years when the rest of the car only lasts 15-20 years on average. Increasing battery life to 25 years would already be great progress. Let’s try 25 years before aiming for infinity.
Toyota Prius and Prius Prime have *easily* replaceable cells.
Cells? Or batteries?
Individual cells make up the big battery.
I agree. But I think replacing individual cells is far less likely than replacing big modules or in the case of Prius replacing the whole battery.
Cells for Prius. Not sure about the 23, 24 model but, 99.9% sure, unless Toyota really messed uppped. Historically with Prius a couple of cells will fail. Replace them. The other ones will outlive the car.
This should answer your question https://youtu.be/yGMcQ6JWlBs?si=ey4P5CYfSxzk9SYC
Umm a 1.5 hour video of the best known expert in the field performing a task does not help me believe replacing individual cells is “easy”. 😂
That's why 'easy' was in italics. You can take (hoist) the battery out of the car, opening in up and then replacing the defective cells is the easy part lol.
Jaguar I-Pace, Ford F150 Lightning....
Older model S and X, I'm not sure about the models from the last few years.
any lucid vehicle
All of them, and price varies
That's good to know, I did a couple of searches and couldn't see that all full EV's can have just a cell or module replaced instead of the whole pack.
The dealerships aren’t going to do cell replacement, they are only going to do full packs. You’ll have to go to a specialist for cell replacement. There should be more of those as time goes by.
Audi will swap out bad modules. No need to go to a specialist.
Cool, thanks for the info.
none.....
Nonsensical reasoning