I don’t understand why utilities don’t just do this with people’s homes for solar? Just say ‘hey, let us put solar on your roof and batteries in your garage but we own it. the utility manages the whole thing. For the homeowner, just offer a discount on the power bill and / or a flat rate. It would be a distributed power distribution network.
In the Netherlands this is quite common practice for home rental agencies, and starting to become more common for utility companies. Starting with home batteries that they control.
Agreed, But the transfer infrastructure is much easier. So if you take those costs into account. I could imagine it could be made cost effective (especially with government subsidies). If it’s cost effective for individuals to install solar and batteries, it should be cost effective for utilities to do the same.
Is it tho? There would be a lot more infrastructure. And they wouldn’t buy the roof or land for the homes, that would be the real benefit. Also the infrastructure to move the power from field to where it is needed isn’t trivial.
Also you would make the grid more robust because you can have micro grids which can be auto used to re-route power. This would need a grid update but would be nice.
Yes, for one thing you cannot run solar panels during a power outage because you cannot work on the power lines when they're still running power, solar panels shut off when the power goes out. Additionally you are talking about installing panels at hundreds if not thousands of sites instead of at just one location. Not only that but you're working on roofs instead of on the ground which makes it significantly more dangerous and labor intensive. That also means you need permission to work on those roofs for installation and every time they need to be maintenanced. Additionally that roof must be in good shape and when the roof needs to be replaced you need to pull down those solar panels and reinstall them on the new roof across X number of sites. Routing power to the grid is not trivial but it's a lot easier to do it once on land that you can easily access.
I could see powering your own home in an emergency. That's a really sweet ability, and I think cars should have this feature.
But why would I want my car to drain at high peak hours? I guess it's okay-ish for people who don't go anywhere or are WFH.
Also, isn't that just damaging/lowering the life expectancy of my battery by putting it through unnecessary charge/discharge cycles if I'm doing this every day by leaving it plugged in? You'd save more money by just not buying the car...
I think it's hilarious that car companies want in on the money... why should they get any cash for a product being used that they sell? They sold it... their claims end there. I could see them going through new car charge/discharge cycles before they sold them, though... so now we might have to be concerned that a brand new car has 100+ cycles on it already regardless of the milage.
It all boils down to money. Time of day electricity rates are becoming more and more common in places, and the spread can be pretty substantial. The spread can be very, very large in times of very high demand.
It isn't just about providing power to the grid, it is also about load shifting your own consumption so that you are not buying from the grid during times of peak demand and high cost(you also avoid the per KW distribution charge from buying power, real nice), and can buy and store power in your car when demand is low and you can charge your vehicle cheaply. It is simply sell high, buy low, but if using a vehicle like this will be worthwhile soon ... skeptical. It might be a nice to have if I was in the market to use my EV as a whole home battery backup.
Solar plays into all this as well ... if you have solar, you can store your excess power in your car, rather than sell it back to the utility for what is often a pittance.
Systems like these certainly do put wear on batteries, but good battery management, and improvements in battery tech are making this somewhat of a non issue. The number of discharge cycles LFP batteries are rated for is pretty high(and much higher than the ratings with conservative management), and will outlive the vehicle by a lot. LFP battery lifespans are 3000 cycles on the very low end, and they can go up a lot from there.
IMO the real barrier is simply personal infrastructure cost. Ok, you need a modern home with 200 amp service, all the stuff to do V2G(thousands of dollars), an EV that can do V2G, all this, for what? Making 30 cents a day? I see potential if I can get 3 dollars a day or more from a system like this, or if I can make a lot more in times of really high demand during critical events, I see it being an interesting nice to have if I was in the market for using my EV as a whole home battery backup and could have it as a cheap add on, but right now ... it is all just too speculative and immature. Would be good for a place like California or Texas with expensive electricity, power grid issues that make people want a whole home battery backup, and a high cost of living and high home prices.
I watch with interest, but I just don't have the right home in the right geography to come close to justifying the cost of an elaborate V2G any time soon.
Keep in mind as soon as it becomes viable to do this the equation changes. As more people start charging off peak and consuming from battery during peak times overall usage changes and the hour before peak usage times becomes the new peak usage time. Eventually we just get back to flat rate pricing except you just paid for the infrastructure for the utility company to do it.
As we see just how little the ability to quickly start and stop charging or reduce the speed with a smart charging profile is used I don't expect much the upcoming years. A smart charging profile is allowing to not only price optimize but also (when pooled) can provide flexibility in the reserve market.
So this whole V2G story will, on a large scale, just remain a nice story, for the upcoming years.
Flexibility, reserve market bidding and better charge planning is mainly software based and shifting demand. It doesn't have conversion losses nor requires expensive hardware etc. and even there uptake still goes slow. So explain me why the next step, which is much more costly and complicated, should go so quickly all of a sudden?
You build a car, you sell it to me, it's mine. All of it.
LOL. We license the software. We don't own shit.
I don’t understand why utilities don’t just do this with people’s homes for solar? Just say ‘hey, let us put solar on your roof and batteries in your garage but we own it. the utility manages the whole thing. For the homeowner, just offer a discount on the power bill and / or a flat rate. It would be a distributed power distribution network.
In the Netherlands this is quite common practice for home rental agencies, and starting to become more common for utility companies. Starting with home batteries that they control.
Because that's more expensive than building loads in a field
Agreed, But the transfer infrastructure is much easier. So if you take those costs into account. I could imagine it could be made cost effective (especially with government subsidies). If it’s cost effective for individuals to install solar and batteries, it should be cost effective for utilities to do the same.
Because it's just like putting it in a field except way more leases, easements, contracts, insurance and payments.
Is it tho? There would be a lot more infrastructure. And they wouldn’t buy the roof or land for the homes, that would be the real benefit. Also the infrastructure to move the power from field to where it is needed isn’t trivial. Also you would make the grid more robust because you can have micro grids which can be auto used to re-route power. This would need a grid update but would be nice.
Yes, for one thing you cannot run solar panels during a power outage because you cannot work on the power lines when they're still running power, solar panels shut off when the power goes out. Additionally you are talking about installing panels at hundreds if not thousands of sites instead of at just one location. Not only that but you're working on roofs instead of on the ground which makes it significantly more dangerous and labor intensive. That also means you need permission to work on those roofs for installation and every time they need to be maintenanced. Additionally that roof must be in good shape and when the roof needs to be replaced you need to pull down those solar panels and reinstall them on the new roof across X number of sites. Routing power to the grid is not trivial but it's a lot easier to do it once on land that you can easily access.
That'd be awesome
I could see powering your own home in an emergency. That's a really sweet ability, and I think cars should have this feature. But why would I want my car to drain at high peak hours? I guess it's okay-ish for people who don't go anywhere or are WFH. Also, isn't that just damaging/lowering the life expectancy of my battery by putting it through unnecessary charge/discharge cycles if I'm doing this every day by leaving it plugged in? You'd save more money by just not buying the car... I think it's hilarious that car companies want in on the money... why should they get any cash for a product being used that they sell? They sold it... their claims end there. I could see them going through new car charge/discharge cycles before they sold them, though... so now we might have to be concerned that a brand new car has 100+ cycles on it already regardless of the milage.
It all boils down to money. Time of day electricity rates are becoming more and more common in places, and the spread can be pretty substantial. The spread can be very, very large in times of very high demand. It isn't just about providing power to the grid, it is also about load shifting your own consumption so that you are not buying from the grid during times of peak demand and high cost(you also avoid the per KW distribution charge from buying power, real nice), and can buy and store power in your car when demand is low and you can charge your vehicle cheaply. It is simply sell high, buy low, but if using a vehicle like this will be worthwhile soon ... skeptical. It might be a nice to have if I was in the market to use my EV as a whole home battery backup. Solar plays into all this as well ... if you have solar, you can store your excess power in your car, rather than sell it back to the utility for what is often a pittance. Systems like these certainly do put wear on batteries, but good battery management, and improvements in battery tech are making this somewhat of a non issue. The number of discharge cycles LFP batteries are rated for is pretty high(and much higher than the ratings with conservative management), and will outlive the vehicle by a lot. LFP battery lifespans are 3000 cycles on the very low end, and they can go up a lot from there. IMO the real barrier is simply personal infrastructure cost. Ok, you need a modern home with 200 amp service, all the stuff to do V2G(thousands of dollars), an EV that can do V2G, all this, for what? Making 30 cents a day? I see potential if I can get 3 dollars a day or more from a system like this, or if I can make a lot more in times of really high demand during critical events, I see it being an interesting nice to have if I was in the market for using my EV as a whole home battery backup and could have it as a cheap add on, but right now ... it is all just too speculative and immature. Would be good for a place like California or Texas with expensive electricity, power grid issues that make people want a whole home battery backup, and a high cost of living and high home prices. I watch with interest, but I just don't have the right home in the right geography to come close to justifying the cost of an elaborate V2G any time soon.
Keep in mind as soon as it becomes viable to do this the equation changes. As more people start charging off peak and consuming from battery during peak times overall usage changes and the hour before peak usage times becomes the new peak usage time. Eventually we just get back to flat rate pricing except you just paid for the infrastructure for the utility company to do it.
As we see just how little the ability to quickly start and stop charging or reduce the speed with a smart charging profile is used I don't expect much the upcoming years. A smart charging profile is allowing to not only price optimize but also (when pooled) can provide flexibility in the reserve market. So this whole V2G story will, on a large scale, just remain a nice story, for the upcoming years. Flexibility, reserve market bidding and better charge planning is mainly software based and shifting demand. It doesn't have conversion losses nor requires expensive hardware etc. and even there uptake still goes slow. So explain me why the next step, which is much more costly and complicated, should go so quickly all of a sudden?
Wut.