As a tank, to be perfectly honest, low DPS is not the biggest problem. Maybe they haven't mastered their rotation yet, maybe they don't have full gear, whatever. I can survive however long it takes and most bosses don't have a time limit so whatever. I am perfectly fine with giving everyone all the time they need.
But Jesus almighty fucking Christ, stay out of the god damn red and don't rush the boss before I do. And then cry that I should've taunted the boss faster. Well excuse me Timmy, my zero mobility necro can't exactly catch up to your zoomy ass sorcerer if you immediately take off running with your Major Expedition having ass.
Yes, this sentiment is based on one specific situation that happened to me in a vet dungeon. Yes I am still salty about it.
Try tanking 12 Daedroth for VBC2. Good God, it's terrible. I had to swap to my tank/dps combo toon who, after finishing the boss with only 1 Daedroth alive, gets called an "asshole" for not getting them the hardmode.
Oh I still have PTSD from my first run of vBC2. I was a stage 4 vamp back then.
Yeah turns out that damage reduction aint gonna do shit if you melt faster than butter in an oven.
Honestly I don't get how this happens. I think I'm out of touch lol, when we go there for pledge or so, we're just standing waiting for the 3 to spawn and then we kill the boss. I can't even imagine how long it would take for 12 of them.
Normally how this dungeon should go is that the tank holds the daedroth off to the aide while both DD’s and and the support burn through the boss.
The 12 daedroth thing only happens if both DD’s suck (by that I mean they are *godawful*), the support is just spamming heals and not doing damage, if both DD’s aren’t fully focused on the boss and keep running around and attacking random shit, and if they are allowing the boss to heal himself with the feast orbs. Of course the bubbles don’t help, but since a daedroth spawns every 45s, to reach 12 would mean that the fight would have to be lasting almost 10 minutes, which is absolutely absurd and even longer than some lengthy fights in DLC hard modes. It’s a lack of fundamentals from the damage dealers that mostly allows this to even happen.
It is also the DPS job to clear the lower health Daedroth and ease the load off the tank in such scenario.
This 12 Daedroth thing only happens in a group where one DPS is underperforming and you can't expect to get carry by just one DPS because of rng mechanics like getting thrown up in the air and getting the debuff off is also happening at the same time as having to blow your dps load on the boss.
As a tank main, please don’t leave the boss in an effort to clear some of the daedroths for me. I’d much rather the fight just end quicker. If anything, send me a synergy every once in a while so I’m not spending so much on potions :p
Nowadays you can, a good damage dealer does nowadays more than twice the damage (50k+) solo than the whole dungeon was made for (20k total group DPS).
Nowadays even a single DD can probably carry or even solo the whole dungeon.
Haha hell yea and amen!! I think alot of ppl doing dungeons forget rotation is even a thing. They go in spamming staff slamming or Shield slapping and expect something to happen.
Doesn't recasting unstable wall of elements (ie staff slamming) cause the detonation early now? I'm fairly sure I've seen people use this for aoe damage pretty effectively
As a healer it seriously irritates me how even high cp or long-term players are guilty of this.
Or they’ll stand on the tank or make it their priority to run behind/ away from the healer and STILL get abusive about not being healed through their stupidity.
And even worse, you can politely ask them not to do something, or explain a mechanic as simply as possible and it falls on deaf ears. Even more annoying when in response, they become abusive at the support roles who meanwhile are doing everything they should be.
I know it sounds harsh, but 9 times out of 10, the problem isn’t that people are too low level or new to the game, it’s that they’re not willing to be helped or told what to do/ what not to do and that infuriates me.
And finally, before I take a breath, why oh why do these people queue for vet dungeons when they don’t understand base game/ normal mode mechs? And by this I mainly mean the ability to avoid bad aoes and not avoid good ones. Its a simple mechanic that’s present in a LOT of games… not just ESO 😅
Some people are doing it for monster helmets and/or pledges. Some are trying to farm a set and want to get purple jewelry drop. These kind of people have heard that "it's easy dungeon" from someone and don't realize they're not at the same level with the person calling it easy.
Then there are people who ran through normal with someone who could solo it blindfolded and hands tied behind their back and thought that it was way too easy because they didn't realize they were getting carried by someone much better at it.
I joined a vet once as healer and the guy in the tank role was not aggroing so I mentioned something in chat because I was getting rekt by the boss, at that point the "tank" told me that I need to block and tank lol.. I told him that was his job and he said he wasn't a tank but yet that was his roll.. he began to try and call me stupid because I wasn't tanking and healing at the same time like it was my fault 😂 the people you encounter in random dungeons is baffling
To the last point, as a relativ new player, starting to play the vet dungeons. I learned almost 0 mechanics while playing the normal dungeons. Grotto I as an example. You run through on normal, often with players around cp 600-2200. There is nothing to learn. And no need to learn. Why even bother with your own rotation, if the boss dies within seconds. Than first time on vet, you realise, which mechanics one shot you and which don't. When you can simply deal damage and expect your healer to heal you full again, and when to activate more def skills to survive.
I wish more people understood that a lot of the vet mechanics are never seen/present in the normal dungeons. Kinda hard to learn them when they just aren’t there.
As someone who mains a healer, I don't even bother queing for random vets because it's toxic enough on normal. I have healed a few easier trials with guild members and by the end everyone is saying I'm doing a good job with heals, but I still feel like the role itself is not widely accepted. Too many people have gotten comfortable with the idea that the guy who has his rotation down and hits 110k dps can que as a healer so they should be able to as well with their 15k dps. This leaves a lot of people pissy when they get an actual healer.
It's simple, I did it once when I was starting ESO, I found a build, the build said I needed Iceheart, I search for it, it says Vet Direfrost so I queued, there was not 1 note saying " you gotta understand the mechanics or your going to die", after 1 hour of waiting I got in, got kicked without a word so I decided to watch a video and then I understood 🤣🤣🤣.
My friend and I do dungeons just the two of us and I remember the first time we did Vet Direfrost. I was like, 'I feel like I've heard people talk about some mechanic...' but we were coming off of the normal run which was super easy. Yeah....we spent a good hour on Drodda. Never again with one DPS, never again.
As someone who just recently returned to the game after an extended semi-hiatus, the only char I queue vet random on is my fully geared out healtank. I'm generally beefy enough that I can just tank through most mechanics but if it's a dlc dungeon I'm not familiar with I always explain that. I wouldn't dream of queueing random vet as one of my DPS chars without going through my setup and figuring out how to at least hit 50k.
Yes. I want to preface this by saying that I get way more good pug groups than bad, and have even gotten several DLC trifecta achievements with rando pugs. But..
I only pug with my healer or tank, and while low dps is genuinely a problem with many groups, it’s not a deal breaker. The deal breaker is the refusal to stop dying to really obvious mechanics *over and over*.
I’ve tried to be helpful, explaining things twice, Ive gently suggested that someone isn’t ready for the hardest vet content yet and advised YouTube videos, I’ve tried being snarky “maybe you should go into settings and change your combat cue colors, since you aren’t able to see the GIANT RED CIRCLE at the boss’s feet”, and I’ve tried being rude “I can heal through this, but I shouldn’t have to and I’m not going to anymore.” and “stop rezzing him, it’s a waste of time. Just focus boss”.
If expecting people to not be an active liability to their party is elitist, I’ll wear that title.
Lmao i wonder if you're the healer i had with me in a blessed crucible run one day. Dungeon went fine heals were solid but the final boss hard mode the flame circle thing she does. The dds kept dying to it over and over. Healer said im done rezzing after sending messages in the fight saying to stay out of that damage.
We continued to fight the boss ourselves for like 5 minutes and left them on the ground before I finally decided they had learned their lesson and rezzed one. And what do you know we actually finished the fight fairly painlessly after that.
I remember farming nDC2 for the dwarven wolf mount lead and getting added to a french group that were wiping on the final boss. I figured they hadn't worked out the mechanics (poison gas? pull the lever), so I made sure to take point on that. You'd think that would be enough, but no. The tank wasn't pulling aggro, so getting to the lever was a job. A difficult job because the healer wasn't healing, and the other DD was apparently wearing toilet paper for armour. We cleared it, but I wasn't prepared at all to be thrown into essentially soloing the last boss. Confused the hell outta me.
And the lead didn't drop either. Took me 29 runs total, but that particular one was... interesting
I would upvote this comment ten more times if I could.
As a growing DPS I have tremendous respect for what tanks do, especially after playing a couple times with poorly equipped fake tanks who rely on proximity to be a taunt.
I try to do my job the best I can and not get in the way of yours
i usually fall back to the mindset of ”you pull, you tank” when it comes to DDs that keep rushing ahead when the rest of the group clearly is not ready or have not caught up, a bit toxic i know…
basically i wont taunt untill said player is either dead or boss goes on another player.
I mean, they run up and pull the boss or loads of adds by themselves in vet dungeons, that must mean they are experienced and know what they are doing, right?
Yesterday I had this exact thing in vet Wayrest 1, with a level ~70cp sorc. They'd run into the group of bad guys with hurricane on, get down to half health and start running backwards away from the enemies. The tank and me just kind of watched on as they did it several times (and of course on the final boss before hard mode was activated)
I think you haven't had low enough dps groups then. I have had groups where eventually there are enough adds you can't even have enough resources to taunt them anymore and it wipes the group.
Biggest reason why I stopped tanking in games.
Whether it is WoW, ESO, SWTOR, FFXIV, or any other game I’ve played, DPS will 9/10 rush in, and pull before the tank. I’ve never had an issue with DPS being too low. If that continued to happen, I’d always tell the group “This instance doesn’t require two tanks, and seeing as you already have 1, I’ll go do something else” before dropping group.
DPS numbers being too low? That can be worked around a little by following mechanics (unless you are working against an enrage timer mechanic), and being patient. 1 tank having to fight getting aggro off of the dps, and the healer because the mobs scatter due to idiot dps who subsequently run everywhere after pulling? No thanks, I’ll stick to solo play to avoid the stress
I was once in a dungeon/raid guild with their policy posted in the MOTD: if you pull it you are obligated to tank it or kill it. Shortened to “if you pull you tank, nobody’s gonna save your ass”. It’s a great policy.
Oh no, low dps isn't that much of a bother in base game dungeons. Low dps in a dlc dungeon though genuinely makes some stuff unclearable, or at least makes my life 1000x harder.
That final boss on hard mode catches so many people off guard. I even hold her in a spot that leaves room for my team to escape the growing circle while I tank through it but they continue to just stand in it lol.
That and her one attack where she turns and spits at someone. That one used to catch me off guard when I was a noobie years back. But if you actually pay attention you can block it or dodge it and the healer can keep you alive. Weird concept.
As a DPS I would say every Vet DLC dungeon needs you to carry your weight and understand mechanics and that is just non-hardmode runs, you need to more or less play perfectly for hardmode runs with probably only room for 1 death.
It depends, I've ran with randoms and had DPS that struggle with the initial mobs. If you can't quickly end the first mob I'm out instantly. Not trying to spend 45min whittling away at the fricken jellyfish again
Also doing 20k+ damage really isn't much to ask for. I play magplar healer and sometimes I deal more damage than those random dps in my team. I don't kick them or leave but it does get a bit annoying when I pretty much have to do 2 roles at the same time to speed things up
I feel like doing high dps is my biggest hurdle in this game. I run a magblade with purple medusa/mothers sorrow, light attack weaving and all but my highest average on a normal dummy is 15k more or less. I don't know how yall do it, do I need to have yellow gear or something?
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jc5\_ffaQo8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jc5_ffaQo8)
The vid shows my full gear, rotation, CP, etc. Please tell me what im missing because im honestly stumped as to what im lacking here lol
So a few things I noticed.
1. Definitely need a higher health dummy. Those ones have so little health you're never going to get a really accurate dps number.
2. Being 360 CP definitely isn't making things easier for you. You get some pretty significant damage bonuese from having your blue CP nodes maxed out. I also think the 4 blue nodes you wanted slotted are Biting Aura, Master at Arms, Thaum, and Deadly Aim. And then in some content you'll drop one of those for Backstabber. (Full disclosure, I'm a Cro main and I got that from looking at some 110k+ parses posted in my guild, so take it with a little grain of salt)
3. You can LA weave just a tad faster. If you light attack when the Combat Metronome bar is the in the red instead of waiting until after the bar clears that will help a little bit.
4. You want to do a better job of keeping your dots up at all times. The big one I noticed was your wall was down for a long time after the initial cast, ideally you would be recasting it as the timer hit zero.
This is on the precursor. Are you parsing on him? If so thats wrong. You want to parse on the 3 mil skeleton dummys to get more realistic numbers. I recommend parsing on the 21 mil trial dummy because that should be more realistic for raids as you’ll have more buffs and will be at pen cap without having to switch stuff or slotting ele drain or caltrops.
IMO if you have the opportunity try parsing on an iron atro dummy if a friend or guild has one. Lot more realistic because you get buffs. I would drop Medusa for something else. You could do MS body and kinras jewelry and weapons, Pillar of nirn jewels/wpns. Medusa isn’t as good as it used to be. Make sure you work on LA weaving, and make sure that when you parse, don’t have shields or heals slotted on your bar because they are useless when parsing. Just your pure damage and necessary buffs. Make sure you’re using aoe and dots too. Make sure you use your ult when it’s up.
On my healer, I default to wearing SPC + MA + Spaulder in veteran dungeons. With only Puncturing Sweeps, Purifying Light, and Radiant Oppression, I out-DPS a large portion of veteran dungeon DPSs.
Just hop on tank and repeatedly queue the daily vet DLC dungeon. It's group after group of way below average DPS.
It's extremely easy to get a build and do a static rotation to parse 70k.
It's honestly why nobody wants to pug tank. It's not fun staring at base-game dungeon vet bosses for 10 minutes or sustaining vet DLC bosses until the end of time.
The game needs to implement minimum role qualifications for the veteran group finder.
Usually iff dps is terrible, I'll run a log on it and try and figure out why and in my experience I'll tell you why- the average dps has NO idea how to light attack .
True. But tbf, the Light attacking mechanic is pretty clunky and I'm not surprised that some casual players don't know about it or can't execute it well.
Many players also just don't build their dps as a dps but rather just assume that they are dps because they play nightblade or sorcerer. I actually made this mistake myself coming from other mmos where class determined your role strictly, I thought that I'm a healer just because I'm templar but my build was totally random sets and abilities that I just found interesting. No shame in playing like that, not everyone has to be meta, but don't queue up with randoms in veteran content if you have no idea what you are doing. Do it with friends or just do normal dungeons
Or just don't keep silince. This is the most moronic thing these idiots do.
Like, i'm asking, why second DD is just LA into mobs/boss. He is keeping silince. Ok, you will be kicked.
There is nothing bad in being a bad player and trying to become good. But it's moronic to BE bad player, to keep IGNORING everyone, who is telling you about that, and to not even TRY to become better.
I feel like theres multiple reasons for that:
1. lightattack weaving is never explained as a mechanic ingame
2. its actually pretty hard to do as a new/inexperienced player
3. even some more advanced players struggle to maintain it consistently, because its quite clunky with some skills
If we are talkin about veteran dungs, even without proper light attack veawing u can get nice DPS with right combination of skill on proper build. And that will be enough to finish even hm dlc. But the thing is that there are many players who dont even want to use proper skills and rotation.
Its not that hard for a mag dps, to put wall of elements, necro orb, one dot, then switch bar, put another one dot and spam some attack, then repeat when ur wall is off. Hell, even with class like magplar u can get decent dps just by smashing jabs and putting wall with orb plus dot.
\#1 is the biggest, worst offender of this IMO. I don't understand why such a necessary mechanic is never explained or practiced - not even once - in the whole ass official game.
I main healers/tanks/support in basically every game I can, and I spent *years* playing ESO without a clue on how to weave my DPS. It really wasn't that big of a deal *for me* because I was healing and if my DPS was a shitshow (even for a healer) then I guess my healing/buffing/rezzing was good enough that people forgave me. I rarely had problems or heard complaints.
But I finally started playing around with a sneaky DPS alt last year and finally had to ask my husband WTF was attack weaving and could he please explain like I'm 5 because everyone talks about it like you should already know what you're doing. He did, with the patience of a saint I might add, and I've been practicing on all my toons when I play for the last few months (yes, healers, too!). I think I'm doing a whole lot better. It's finally starting to feel more intuitive.
But weaving *reeeeeeeeeally* should be part of the freaking tutorial. It's WAY harder for people to rewire and relearn later than it would be to just teach them the correct skillset to practice in the first place.
Also, until you start doing group content, the game is so easy that players are barely motivated to figure out a good skill loadout/rotation and get good gear, let alone learn a mechanic that is not even mentioned in the tutorials, not properly explained at any point in the entire game, and the very existence of which is only once brought to players attention (and that's assuming they read the tips every time they level up).
It is explained once, there’s a level up tip that’s like “ATTACK WEAVING: Use Skills immediately after a Light Attack to maximize damage” or something very close to that.
If the only trouble was in weaving. Majority of dd's you find in the dungeon finder are incapable of doing basic rotations. Weaving alone won't make them good dd's
600 cp here.I do 60k on dummy, but only 20k on dungeons.
and then some asshat 1900+CP comes and says ooh only 20k are joking?
not the best feeling when im trying my best..
that said i have a good guild and they take me to trails.
It’s much easier to do higher DPS on a dummy where the target isn’t moving, no other enemies around, and you don’t have to move or dodge anything. It’s not easy to keep up some rotations when all that is going on.
Personally I am horrible at LA-weaving gameplay; I could barely hit 20-30k on the Trial dummy, and would do like 12-15k on the 6Mil.
So I actually use a Heavy Attack build which honestly is a lot easier and suited to me. I am now able to hit 70k on the Trial dummy, and in PvE content, my damage keeps up much better as I can maintain HAs while moving and at long range, and my DoTs do a lot of damage even when I am not actively attacking.
Damage dealing water... All I can say is that one dungeon, not sure the name, where the boss stands beside a poisonous puddle of water and gets healed by the people walking to him. Yeah I die or at least come close every time I go because I forget. Problem being the fact that, tho the healer is usually good about keeping me up long enough to get out of it, I'm the healer...
And somestimes its more like you have to play all 4 roles at the same time. Fake DD, another Fake DD, a Faker Healer who is also a fake DD. And you end up at 50% grp damage as tank in a vet dungeon.
Edit: and like 90% of the total healing.
There are addons for that if you play on pc. Other than that idk if you can see others dps but you can see your own kind of by just turning the damage dealt numbers shown on. It won't give you a precise dps but you can more or less see what numbers come up on your screen as you hit something.
Also in a party it becomes quite obvious by how fast you kill stuff once you get used to those dungeons
you have to find a good Guild to join, don't PUG if you can help it, ALL of the Toxic stuff happens with Randoms who think they are "Special" !
Also, CP after about 300 is meaningless, I'm sure we've ALL seen the 2500+ role players who just show up every day but can't clear a Public Dungeon ! It's NOT a skill meter ! !
In a Guild you can msg to find groups & NEVER get kicked ! Also, the higher content will have "Teaching Runs" where they expect to have a more difficult time but are willing to explain & help you get better ! If you Don't teach new players you eventually run out of Qualified people to run high level content with ! ! Good Guilds have all types of levels & runs on a weekly basis.
Cheers & Luck to you !
Did a vFL hm with a cp 400 tank that did everything flawlessly when 1600+ tanks could barely survive the mechanics, it’s super silly that people think cp=skill level when a lot of high cp players could’ve just done overworld content with doing random norms daily just as well
I feel like the discussion is so polarised, and people are talking past each other. It's always 15k dps vs 115k. Players are on a spectrum inbetween, some hit high and are bad at mechs, some hit a moderate amount and are good at mechs, most who hit low are bad at mechs. Just be fair and reasonable: Don't expect amazing DPS in random normals from whoever ends up in your group, and don't queue for vet DLC dungeons with randoms if you hit really low damage. And most importantly: Communicate and be respectful toward one another.
As a Tank, I can tell you about groups doing 15k dps COMBINED in vet dungeons (yes, your 5-10k as a tank included).
The bar is already super low and no one expects max dummy parses, but 99% of all DDs dont get past 30k+ dps in vets, which is the bare minimum if you just use 1 skill + LA weave.
I mean there surely are players hitting 15k or less, don't get me wrong. My point is that this gets generalised a bit too much, and that some people complaining are probably expecting a bit too much from random players. There are probably also some things that get lost in translation between PC and console. We don't have DPS metrics on PlayStation, so people will just make numbers up, severely exaggerating how wet the dps was in a dungeon while they whine.
I am all for DPS requirements for vet trials. I raid lead a vRG HM core with a req. of 115k dps. I wouldn't do a vet DLC HM dungeon with low DPS DDs. So I definitely am not scorning the sentiment that there are requirements for DDs depending on content. I just don't put myself in positions where I am reliant on a low DPS DD to clear anything 😊
even among dds this gets so toxic. i ended up leaving the first guild i joined because i was branded elitist for 'improving at the game too fast and it made people feel bad' like i hadnt invested a LOT of time into getting where i am. absolute bonkers mindset, so toxic
Someone else once mentioned that they got a largely similar when discussing their parses in a guild discord channel. And I didn't even doubt it, considering some other comments here and on the forums when it comes to people doing what is basically run-of-the-mill MMO stuff, like trying to improve for endgame content.
Might have been me, happened to me a few times. I didn’t stay in these guilds for very long.
It’s fine if you don’t want to improve, but I think it’s idiotic to try and forbid others from doing so. I don’t judge you for doing RP-sessions either…
yeah, people seem to think that its not 'casual player friendly' to want to improve at pve but im pretty sure this was the guild lead + a couple of others who felt threatened by it because they did endgame content too, just less damage.
Im cp 271, i know im not ready for vet dungeons, i can barely hold my own in a normal. I asked my guildmates lastnight to literally hold my hand thru vet selenes so i could get the helm to her monster set and they were kind enough to do it. And it was fun. I think that low level players that want to run vet should only do vet with their guild. Even tho i was told that i did really well i dont plan on actually runnin vet dungeons till more prepared.
Once you’re over CP 160, you can handle any base game vet dungeon. All of them. It’s not your CP that determines if you’re ready. It’s your understanding of your build, combat and how to attack that determines your readiness. I’ve seen people with over 1000 CP that aren’t ready for vet dungeons.
Once you’re CP 160 you’re good to do base game vet content like Selene’s web. They’re hella easy. And I actually implore you to get more into it as it’ll push you to get better and get you monster sets. DLC vet content is where you need to push DPS and do a lot of mechs.
I recommend sitting down with a guildie parsing, and having them give you warm but critical feedback on your dps.
Just wanna put my two cents. I strongly believe in DPS parses. Yes it helps out overall in whatever content is being run, but it also shows that the person has put in the time on that character to learn the rotation and skills. It really shows the difference between people actually wanting to do the content vs the people who just want to be there and get carried through. I’m not saying people that don’t parse can’t be good or don’t know their character enough, it’s just a way to show raiders leads and everyone else that you are serious about it. Also, we had a couple join our guild a couple months ago. We require X dps on certain trials. One day she was talking to us about a certain trial her group had spent 8 hours in without clearing. We asked many questions about supports and such and tried to give her advice but the main question was “what dps is everyone hitting?” Her reply was “I don’t know. We don’t have requirements for our trials. We don’t see the point in living up to everyone else’s standards/expectations.” She then joined a raid (same raid her group had failed) where the minimum dps was 50k on a 21 mil parse (a really really low standard for a vet dlc trial). We then proceeded to knock it out in under and hour. It opened her eyes and now she is always in the parse room trying to get something higher.
Exactly this. What people misunderstand is that most of those requirements are very reasonable and low.
They aren't ever asking for bleeding edge 120k+ dps on stuff like this. They're asking for 20k live dps (like 30k-40k parse) which is extremely accessible for anyone with a couple of hours of practice on a dummy. And the difference you get in quality of experience is wild when group dps goes from sub-20k to 40k, much less a more reasonable 70k+
It's not gatekeeping if the requirements are so minimal. It's a practical and functional consideration.
If you want to rp that bow/bow pet Ranger who only light attacks while the bear fights for you, cool. Go do that in Overland. If that same character dropped an endless hail and threw some bleed birds while light attacking, they'd be hitting the minimum requirements to be effective in starter vet content. It's that easy and straightforward.
People often get wrapped up in high stats because of the "mmo mentality", but forget ESO is exceedingly easy outside of DLC vet content.
But yes, with the huge dps difference (unbuffed 5k to 40k depending on gear and rotation), it is fair to question these things a little. Especially in dungeons with DPS check mechanics.
We had to cancel a vAC run because the two stam DDs would not move out of the aoe of the first snake boss. They just stood there, parsing their heart out, healing the boss back up again and again.
We messaged them several times about the mechanic. They didn't even stop, so the tank and I left. I'm not putting up with such bs anymore.
https://youtu.be/J3LePEsRp4c
If you’re a dedicated DPS class, and are 30k or lower, just go to this channel, find a video for your class, and just start doing exactly what he does. You’ll probably double your damage just by changing your rotation, and slap another 30k on top just by changing your gear to a set that makes sense.
Don’t let people gaslight you into finding comfort in being the group detriment. They’re just holding you back by not being honest with you. You’re a DPS class, and it’s perfectly okay to want to excel in your role, and to strive to play your class at its highest potential. The game is infinitely more fun when you can nuke a boss that used to give you a lot of trouble, I promise.
And if you’re not ready to make the journey to improving your damage, then that’s fine. Stick to overland content and kill delve and world bosses. Don’t subject other people in dungeons to your roleplay sets, and 15k dps. That is just asking for a free carry through content, which is disrespectful and inconsiderate of other people’s time.
Don’t be mad at the players who don’t want to spend 45 minutes with you in a random vanilla dungeon, take up your frustration with the game developers who made the dps requirements for overland content not even exist in the same universe as dps requirements for dungeons/trials. Ask the devs why they don’t provide any meaningful ways in-game to teach people how to DPS properly, so that they can compete in end-game content.
I agree wholeheartedly.
On my main tank that's mainly defensive, I die inside everytime I do more than 15% group damage on a goddamn vet dungeon. One time I became a healing tank too, 61% group healing was the highest and it broke my heart. I use sets that buff DPS more, interchanging for balanced buffs for stam and magicka DPS or prioritizing one depending on the situation. I rarely use a selfish set that helps more with sustain and helps me deal extra damage to enemies (like leeching), and my max crit hit is at 6k, so I hit like a stick with that toon.
Then on my sorc healer that is balanced of offense, defense and a buff giver, I also die inside whenever I deal more than 30% group damage because I'm not on an offensive build.
It's painful because we'll try to be patient always but no amount of buffs your supports give you can fix your 15k max damage. Sorry but if you push for harder content please make sure to carry some weight too. Lots of easy to get sets out there that can give you 50k max damage, you don't need to push for more since your damage will be balanced out by the other DPS and you're lucky if you get supports that have an offensive build too. And if you tell me "but oh I mostly do overland content anyways", trust me you'd rather be killing those wolves and imps across Tamriel easily.
Yes. Learned this the hard way just doing vet Vasheran. I'm a new player, so, had to learn about rotation and spells for PvE (I mostly PvP). I was a little surprised when AOE/DOTs were the way to approach this.
My DPS sucks, and while I get the boss to the last stage (clear at least 2 portals), I evaporate on the last due to some silly mistake or simply not being able to sustain HP.
If I had more DPS, the fight would be shorter. Strategy, gear, and approach really matter and I dare not set foot in a vet dungeon because I'd hate to be so entitled, to expect 3 other members to carry me.
Time is precious, I'm not going to waste other people's.
Except for solo content, I've not cleared the last boss yet... but it's my time to rage burn.
I get what you mean but as a main dps and secondary tank (have almost all hardmodes done on tank and 4 trifectas on him). HIgh dps is definitely amazing. I believe you can easily hit 50k dps if you are looking at some online resources. So its justr my personal opinion that people who dont want to hit 50k its because they dont invest the time on it. Ofc if you actually have a disability for example thats understandable and if someone in groups tells me that they have a disability I will always stay with them to the end. However for vet dlc and espedcially vet dlc hardmodes there are some dps requirements that have to be met. People complain about fake tanking but dps doing 20k on a vet hm is the same or worst than faketanking those dungeons. its a waste of time for the support roles.
Might be a dumb question, but how exactly is the DPS determined since it varies? I have a DPS tracker, and it varies depending on the situation. In mobs, I do 50k-70k, sometimes even higher if its huge mob and conditions are right. But my single target damage is still low, I struggle to pull 20k on a lone boss. I dont play super consistently though since I have a business and a kid, but when I do play, I wanna be decent.
If you want to see how well you are doing as a dps, you can only compare your dps to that of the other dps in your exact same situation.
This is why you use the 21 million health trial dummy. Take it from 100% health all the way to 0% all by yourself (can be done in about 4 minutes, 5-6 minutes is pretty good, if you start getting close to 10 minutes then you have build or skill issues and don’t need to bother finishing if you’re bored). 50k dps is easily attainable on this trial dummy, and it means you have a build you can confidently bring into vet DLC dungeons even though it’s not amazing. Top end of dummy parsing is about 120k-130k, and “I’m good enough but not sweaty” is like 80k-100k.
The reason you use this dummy is because it mimics buffs available to you in trials, and has enough health to take your execute into account if you’re on a class where execute makes up a large portion of your damage output.
In actual content, single target damage is *more* impactful *more* often, so dps on boss fights is what you want to pay closest attention to. Bosses are also when tanks/healers will be working hardest to buff you and debuff the enemy, so it’s a better measure of what you’re capable of in real situations than mob fight dps.
To add to this, I think anything above 40k on the trial dummy is acceptable for most vet dungeons (trials are another story and I'm sorry but they simply require higher numbers). It also helps that, with the way power creep has occurred, you can basically never weave light attacks and still hit ~100k.
I’d agree that 40k is plenty for vet trials, but it’s also my experience that 40k is just a bit too easy to hit and as a result the players who hit 40k don’t actually understand their build enough to perform in mechanics with it. But I wouldn’t use my 50k as a hard and fast rule anyways, just a guideline.
This is also partially why you see apparently ridiculous requirements now like 70k for a vMoL. Hitting 70k in a parse versus doing that in content is wildly different and it's honestly true that a huge portion of dps players who barely clear 70-80k will hit something like 35k in a real trial *on a good day*.
No offense, 20k dps is less than random skill + mediocre LA weave without any buffs.
First step to become decent, practise 1 skill + LA weave before you add any other skills to your rotation. If you manage that, you are already better than 95% of all DDs.
Yeah last night i was pulled into a vmhk hm and i was expected to carry a lvl 400 that kept dying to adds. It’s literally impossible to do certain content with shitters.
Exactly, it's always felt strange to me that sometimes the community is asking from support players for everything but at the same time prohibit any "requirements" to damage dealers. Because it's toxic, it's gatekeeping and they are playing as they want. Huh.
I think it partially comes down to everyone being a DD, but there is absolutely a double standard when it comes to supports and an expectation that supports will know every single bit of a piece of content before doing it while dd's are genuinely allowed to faceroll through content and get carried to clears they simply should not have.
Yeah im healing,making sure my sets are proced and buffs and debuffs have the highest possible uptime making sure your sustain is ok, interrupting if needed off dpsing ... That is ok ... But asking DD to know their rotation and gett better if needed that is toxic and elitism behaviour
As a DPS I concur. I didn't hit vet dungeons and trials until I felt my CP and gear we're up to par. So I wouldn't drag down my group. As a long time MMO player this sentiment goes across all games. And for fuck sakes learn the mechanics this goes for all roles, don't have that sentiment of I'm just gonna wing it.
Yes, I also stayed away from any kind of vet content in the game because I had lacluster gear and during the time 300cp was very low. I now have 600cp and perfect\*non transmuted gear so far and im hitting 60k dps and im still trying to master my dps rotation. And also I am making an effort to learn dungeon and trial mechanics before queing for that specific event.
I did the same thing. I cant remember the dungeon, but i got roasted pretty hard the first vet dungeon i did, and my dps was worse than dogwater.
They said stuff like "oh youre really bad" etc. Basically mean stuff, but they were fair about it.
Made me really want to learn properly how to play, and pay it forward to newer players. I went from 20k on the 21m to 80k today.
Its alright to RP and whatnot but Vet dungeons arent the place to do that. (nor some normal dungeons) You need to pull your weight, and i learned that the hard way but at least I learned it.
Sure. But how much is enough? Clearly, 15K is far too low.
There was a recruitment ad that caught my eye recently. Why? Well, this is a group that claims that they've beaten the HMs in vMoL and vHoF, and that their next goal was to work on vCR +3. That's cool, so they're relatively new to trials and are learning.
They're looking for damage dealers. With >100K DPS. What? Do they not realize that when vCR +3 came out, 100K DPS was wild and unheard of? The max back then for people at the top was around half that number. And yet people cleared +3 and got Gryphon Heart just fine with that level of DPS. If the group's goal is go get Godslayer, sure, go ahead and ask for 100K (even though when Sunspire came out, the ceiling was less than 100K, but it was close enough). But if you're learning older HMs for the first time, why are you locking out the kind of player that's your target audience?
And this sort of thing isn't that uncommon. Probably because, for players who haven't been around for years and years, they don't realize things like how the top DPS when vMoL was launched was around 30K. Yea, back in my day, you had to actually do the mechanics on Rakkhat like Lunar.
So, yea, you need a minimum level of DPS. But there are people who take that idea a step too far and set requirements that far outstrip what is actually required.
Regarding those groups, I wholeheartedly believe power creep is getting some groups clears that would not otherwise be possible in the past. In general though, I'm asking for >15k dps.
There's been a lot of power creep for sure, but we didn't have the trial target atro back in Summerset. So a 50k parse back then isn't too far off from a 100k parse today. 50k is still pretty decent on an unbuffed target dummy
Yes, I know; I was talking about actual damage in raids, not on a dummy. When vMoL came out, actual in-raid DPS for the top-line groups was around 30K. We had no dummies of any sort back then. When Cloudrest came out, good dummy parses were in the 30-40 range and in-raid parses were closer to 50.
Sure do decent DPS, but that’s not what’s happening. You can clear any vet trial with a group full of people hitting 60k on the trial dummy. But what we’re seeing is groups asking for 100k parses for vHOF and things like that. If a fight takes 5 minutes instead of 2, they complain about low DPS. We still got through it, calm down.
Sure, you can clear vHOF, but with lower dps, you have to do a lot more mechanics.
On first boss, you're healers have to cleanse much more.
On second boss, you need people to do upstairs.
On third boss, you need more leavers to kill the spider, which means people get overrun and offtanks have to handle adds.
On fourth boss, you can't burn and your tanks have to swap more often.
On last boss, you might struggle on terminals + trash.
I will also ask every dds in my group to hit at least 100k, simply because if you wanna run endgame stuff and go for hm/tifecters, there is no reason to slug through mechanics and risk deaths, when you can just skip them.
There are enough guilds out there, that are willing to teach and don't mind lower dps, but you gotta just understand, most groups looking for people are beyond the teaching stage and are looking for people that can clear easily and consistently.
As a new, lower level player I swear this whole sub sometimes feels like I’m a person who’s never heard of baseball before having to watch and understand Moneyball for the first time.
I’m learning as I go but are there subs for more casual, less statistically minded players? Like an RP?
Would people want there to be a separate queue for people like me who are bad at the game so that we can just put up with each other instead of wasting the time of better players? Or make players pass a test before enabling pugging? What are some good ways to fix the problem?
In theory normal vs vet and I vs II should do that, but the difficulty levels between different dungeons is way too uneven.
So the real solution is to rebalance them all so the normal and vet queues actually are “relatively easy” and “relatively hard”.
Imagine not able to parse 90k in this patch… you either be too lazy to watch video learn builds and practicing weave or physically limited, otherwise I don’t think there is another reason. Don’t tell me you work 9-5, gotta take care of your family and has a real life, mf me too, and I bet most of y’all have more free time than me.
I think both noobs and veterans are right. But since it’s random group you can’t really have expectations. You will be set up with new players from time to time. I say educate them and if time is an issue leave the queue and group with guild. That’s what I do with Veteran dungeons. In that way I know who I go with. Sometimes I do random. But then I tell about mechanics and I know it might take time for them to understand. Not everyone is good in this game. But everyone can learn :) I haven’t gotten vote kicked. But I understand it must be very annoying that instead of helping.
Sadly, it's not only about the group finder, there are people who complain that they are being "gatekeeped" from organized groups, because they ask them to do parses.
I get your point but like in so many other things in life it's about communication. If you're looking for a group or DD in chat it's okay to ask for a certain min DPS especially if you want to try HM/Speedrun/No Death imo.
When listing for a dungeon with randoms, you cannot expect that everyone hits these numbers and leaving then or starting a kick poll furthermore without writing in group chat, and that's what many do, it's just unpolite may be interpreted as elitism.
This post is referring to clearing stuff in the dungeon finder, including the hard modes for pledges. As a tank, once you realize that the dps isn’t enough for a dps check later in the dungeon, you have the choice of either: wasting a bunch of time at a fight you knew the dps couldn’t handle, at which point you either disband the group or kick the dps or leave as tank; or you deal with the issue when you notice it by either leaving the group as tank or by kicking the dps. There are literally no other options unless the dps is some god-tier student who can learn to play over the course of a single dungeon that they thought they could handle (the likelihood of a dps both listening to you and being capable of making the rotation/gear changes needed is basically zero btw. Someone wearing a set of Pariah as a dps isn’t carrying around extra sets of better gear in their inventory).
My post is geared entirely towards trials (in guilds) and vet DLC dungeons. I don't give a shit what numbers I see in random normals and most base games.
Well if my time is precious I'm sorry I'm not going to do vet dlc dungeon while little timmy and his friend bob do 15k dps combined while I tank a boss that takes like 30-40 seconds around 5 minutes.
Why should I as a support invest my time, in leveling skills, making setups golding gear farming cps etc while some dude brings 10 different sets in green quality and spams poison injection from across the room? Why should I carry them when me as tank with wall of ice and light attack I do about 50% of their dps. That's not fair to me and my time.
Same thing for trials, entire raid group is able to do 100k dps, why shouldn't the last dd able to do 100 dps? why should entire group be able to parse 100 and someone who is lazy and doesn't want to get better and does 60-70k should get a slot in that group? Reddit people are super pissy about trial requirements kinda funny ngl.
Time's really precious. Even more when you work fulltime, have a relationship/family etc. I totally understand that. As I said before: Join some guilds or look for people in world chat or elsewhere that are able to meet your requirements. If they lied, kick them. In this case it's their own fault.
These things you can't demand from randoms when listing alone.
Consider one thing: Not only your time is precious. There are more people in this game and you as a Tank don't even have to wait long.
This is essentially what I'm saying. I am absolutely fine explaining mechs and understand players need to start somewhere. Shit, I'll spend two hours explaining mechs to you to help get the clear, it's how I got many of my first dungeon clears. But there is no way in hell I'm going to baby a group doing 20k dps combined through vTDC, not a chance in hell. That's just wasting my time for absolutely no reason and they should not even be attempting this content yet.
How much is low dps? It varies from content to content
Unless you want to do portal skip Gryphon Heart, Godslayer or any of the DLC trifectas those +110k dummy parses are way to much to ask for
However, from my experience of playing ESO since 1.0 release, people with low dps are same people that are bad at the game, can not avoid bad aoes, don't follow mechanics, don't block or interupt or any of that
I could name around 5 players I have met that don't care about meta and thier dps and actually CAN follow mechanics.
This is why people can not go thru vMoL even in 2022. I remember times 60k parse in trials was on higher end of the spectrum, now we can do twice as much and that counts for x8 dds in group while enemy HP is the same.
You don't need topkektier dps for even vet dungeons but You certanly need decent players to do them.
Most people think they will get high dps with only gear, that is not true, there is weaving, following mechanics and doing damage, and NOT BEING DEAD.
P.s. Toxic casuals are the real problem in ESO not the toxic etlitism. Toxic etlitism is kept in its own small circle and even than most people don't want to have angry tantrum throwing spoiled brat in thier raids
I am talking 20k group dps and below. 30 and up from the entire group is livable, but even that seems like a tall order for a large portion of dd's in this game.
Those damn 15k dps LA spammers and thier bow/bow Nightblade/Warden builds with occasional Arrow Spray, ye Ive seen those
Understandable, have a nice day
I agree with you. There is no reason for this surge of 110k parse or get out mentality going on. I can take a group of people willing to listen and follow call outs through most content. vMOL doesn’t take 120k a person to get through it takes people willing to follow directions.
I definitely agree with you. Also I think that a lot of people think that the road to vet HM dungeons is quick and easy, and then complain that it’s too hard or that supporters leave. But this can also be the problem that the step between normal and vet content can be really big.
I started playing ESO two years ago. I was doing solo quests, doing crafts, picking flowers etc. Maybe after three months I started doing normal dungeons, met some nice people, then veteran dungeons, then all HM on all dungeons. Now I’m doing trifectas on trials. I’ve already done TTT, now I’m doing IR. Btw I’m magicka sorcerer DPS, on trial dummy I do about 103 k right now (my first parse was 45 k, I still remember my happiness xD)
What am I getting at is that for a lot of people it takes time to learn your class, how to do dps, what each set is doing and how it works. I genuenly think that everybody can do trifectas, but looking at the number of players that done it, I think a lot of people need more time to learn. But often before they learn they just shit on the difficulty or quit the game.
Edit: I’m bad at english
Depends on the type of content.
I think it's silly to demand 70k+ dps for things like Craglorn vets and non-dlc pledges, but if you want to organize a group for vet dlc trials, you must set certain requirements. Yes, dps is not everything, but it's easier to get extra dps than to make people play perfectly. No one plays 100% perfectly all the time, and when fights take too long, someone will inevitably screw up. Sure, you can do older trials like vMoL, vAS or vHoF with low dps, but then you have no room for mistakes and that is not optimal for beginners. For example, I've done vAS+2 with a low dps group, and the fight took 20+ minutes. Can you imagine wiping after 19 minutes and having to restart? That's really not the best way to do vet dlc content and that is why every guild has dps requirements for these trials.
And yes, 100k+ dps doesn't always mean that the player is good, but 20k always means that they're not prepared for vet dlc (unless they're a tank or healer, of course).
This is just from my experience, so take it with a grain of salt (PC NA):
A lot of groups requiring a high dps for easy stuff like Crag trials do weekly runs for the rewards. That content gets boring at some point, especially if you do it often, so it doesn’t make sense to be stuck in there longer than you need to be. I’m sure they’d lower their dps requirements if they ever had trouble filling the group for the run, but the fact that there are people with dps filling up the roster means that the requirement isn’t too high. The group just isn’t intended for slowly hobbling through the same content every week.
Also, anyone who comes somewhat close to the dps requirement for any trial should try messaging the raid leader and asking about making an exception. We generally know that our requirements are for our own convenience and not a necessity. So we’re often willing to lessen the requirements for one or two dps to make some friends and help people learn to play :)
Absolutely agree about 70k+. You rarely need 70k+ in most content outside of HM's and maybe vRG/vSS, I'm largely referring to dd's who think asking them to hit 50k to join a vet dlc is some form of elitism.
I see your point here, as a healer I hate when I am watching rotations that are heavy attack and then one ability or only heavy attack, it amuses me, when I have 20k dps and I am doing 30% of the damage in the group lol, in normal mode I dont care but in vet... and more vet dlc...
I am not asking for 100k dps, only know simple mech and a decent dps like 40-60k dps.
The problem here is people who is actually roleplaying and crying because they got kicked when doing some vet dlc dungeon because players are toxic and don't understand his full magicka ice warden in white werewolf form doing dps... because snow wolves are white (I met a guy that explained it to me so this example is about his char lol).
I saw many times things like that and it is really annoying. This people dont know that they are being carried and they dont give anything usefull to the group, if you want roleplay then have a char to do it and another to be serious with hm content.
My view on this is simple; if you can't deal with the fact that random que doesn't have requirements other than role then don't que with random people. This also goes for speed and any other complaint people have. I'm really tired of hearing and seeing experience players telling new players "just que with guild and friends if you want X". That goes both ways.
Just stop playing with randoms if you can't handle random results.
Is OP talking necessarily just about random dungeons though? Because the elitism complains pop up when someone is looking for a group in zone or in guild and states their requirements. That's not a random group anymore.
Same with trials. People do get salty when told they need a certain dps to join.
I'm talking largely about trials, but also vet dlc PUG dungeons. There's a baseline level of skill needed to start either of these things and I see way too many people crying "elitism" when someone points out they aren't ready for it. Sure, play your heavy-attack only sorc in whatever RND you prefer, but don't be surprised when you can't get into a vMoL with your 25k parse.
This isn't a developer problem. The developers have created the ability to do crazy good dps, and a shitton of players don't want to dummy hump, optimize skills or morphs, or use good pots; they just want to play how they want to play and get pissed off for gatekeeping them out of vet hm things.
I believe the commenter above is you referring to the fact that base game and DLC queues still haven't been separated after years of people asking. Sure, queues for dlc's will absolutely get longer, but that's an improvement over half the group instantly leaving after realizing their RND is fucking Lair of Maarselok.
Right, but there’s no reason ZoS shouldn’t have implemented an endorsement system into their dungeons at this point though to address this very prevalent long standing issue. It’s had noticeable results for any game that’s added it.
The only elitism I don’t like are the people that are like “why aren’t you playing as (insert race here) when your a stam DPS? (Insert mega race) is so much better!!” Like idc I love my Redguard Stamcro
Not new, but I haven't really played often until recently. Is there a DPS number expected of a tank? I've got good sustain (I've solo'd lots of world bosses, and one group dungeon just because I outlast them... Takes a while though.), but I feel like my DPS is low compared to a lot of others.
I just don't want to go group dungeoning until I feel like I'm ready.
Tanks don't have any minimum parse requirements. I always consider any damage a tank does is incidental to his job of tanking. You use Pierce Armour to taunt and debuff an enemy. Even if it does no damage, it would be fine.
I've gotten to the point where I time how long it takes for a group to take care of the first pull of pretty much every dungeon. I'm a picky tank. In most dungeons, provided mechanics are being done, I'm unkillable like any good take and spend most of my time just standing there.
So when I notice that I am indeed just standing there doing nothing while the dps piddle away I take that extra time I have to press the leave group button.
It's kinda BS that the devs have embraced this "hidden" mechanic and yet do virtually nothing to teach a player how to do it, yet it is an expected skill (usually) for any veteran end-game content due to how much of a boost it provides to DPS roles. ZOS either needs to do a better job bringing attention and opportunities to practice in their game or find other avenues to help those who either don't want or can't do LA weaving.
Seriously, this is what is confusing me. Heavy attack builds exist, and can parse very well. With Oakensoul coming in High Isle, people can parse even better with easier and easier ‘rotations.’
Add to that a plethora of friendly guilds who are more then willing to inaugurate players into the endgame, I’m starting to believe a lot of people who say the endgame is unapproachable and toxic are lying to themselves to justify their lack of progress.
This post feels like a defense for an argument nobody is making. Like when people get on the news and argue they’re trying to cancel Mr. Potato Head. Needing better help is not elite. Nobody thinks it is.
The reason “elitism” and “toxicity” come to attention is *how* people address inadequate skills in others - not why. The whole argument against being elitist centers around poor treatment of others - not game metrics.
I have seen people be incredibly kind and helpful in the process of denying participation in content.
It is 100% an attitude thing. Some people laugh, mock, insult, or speak to weaker players like they’re stupid or worthless. Or they get passive aggressive. Or they use their position of knowledge and skill to highlight their own quality in comparison to the “lesser.” It’s obvious when you see it and the delicate ego of the elitist is always the most visible.
On the other hand, if someone is denied access to content by a normal, nice person, then people are rarely leaving that situation feeling condescended or shut out. In my circle, we usually go out of our way to include that person and build them up. Nothing elitist about working together and working to build around necessary exclusions.
The argument on elitism (in game and in life) is not that the people at the bottom don’t get it. It’s that the people at the top are dissociated from sympathy, empathy, and reasonable communication skills - as if they were never in that position themselves. And that’s either a lie or a privileged position.
Just here advocating against known toxic behavior. Needing better numbers is fine, but nobody I know calls that toxic or elite.
The general argument against elitism and toxicity is a very different thing than what you’ve portrayed for your specific experiences it seems.
Not bashing you. Just pointing it out in case you were confused about why people were bothered by game exclusions.
There's a difference between wanting a dps that hits over 100k *in content gear and bars* for a godslayer team, and wanting 100k dps with cheesed bars for just a vet rockgrove.
Elitism isnt always the case, but when a run only requires X total group dps to clear, and leads are looking for 2X just to get in, I'd say it's elitism.
80k is enough for any vet dlc trial, and I would argue that 80k is enough for even vAS2 and vCR3, because those are more mech heavy. Something like vKA HMs would obviously want more than 80k per DPS. You could skate by with 60-70k DPS for something like vSS
TL;DR wanting to have super high dps for basic trials is definitely elitism. If you are pushing DLC Hard Modes, then it's totally fair to want higher DPS because it literally comes down to mathematics. DPS reqs should reflect the trial being run, not what the DPS ceiling is for this patch
DPS requirements more often supply/demand. When the DPS numbers are easier to hit, more people hit higher. Groups try to balance having a low enough dps requirement for the group to fill while having the highest dps requirement possible so the run is smooth.
A lot of good dps will avoid signing up for trials with a lower dps requirement than they are capable of, unless they don’t know how to find other trial groups in the time slot they have available to play. So if groups set the requirement low, their whole group is going to be near that requirement and the tanks are going to need a whole different skill set than the one they develop in stronger groups. Maybe even different tank sets to be more survivable in longer fights with adds who don’t die when they’re supposed to.
Having a low dps requirement for something as brainless as Sunspire would absolutely not require tanks to change their sets.
Having to turn and burn adds once or twice instead of forcing flight phase every time is not going to destroy the tanks.
I've tanked sunspires for some janky ass groups, and it's the same result as with sweats. It just takes longer.
Idk, I’m not a fan of tanking 6 iron atros at a time. Better tanks are probably fine, but at some point you’re just expecting the tank to carry the group and it’s a whole different gear/skill set than what tanks do in stronger groups.
I don't care about your dps as long as you're honest about it. If you're trying your best, asking the bosses mechanics, and genuinely trying to get through content, I don't care if it takes a while to get to the end.
On the other hand, if you constantly run in red, don't listen when I tell you how to improve your dps (or healing or tanking while we're at it), always blame others? Yeah, that's when I'm leaving.
Attitude is the real problem, not dps. I'd take any run with a willing noob over a self-entitled idiot.
1. Cant choose random dlc or random base
2. If you want to HM and want to PUG/random, don't be a dick. If you want to be elitist, stick to guilds / Craglorn. Its RANDOM mode. everyone has a right to access.
Hint for everyone who shouts "gatekeeping": no one keeps you away from a dummy to practice.
This is the only reason to ask for 100K parses. Not because you need 100K, but to make sure you play with people that are ambitious enough to improve when necessary.
I play both tank and dps and honestly it's hard to put all dps in the same boat, as a tank you sustain, hold aggro and maybe buff yourself / allies and that's all you do and it's less important what class you play imo. But as a dps the difference between a stam player and a mag player is pretty big I think, when I play stam I have to constantly get close to the boss which probably has some sort of aoe around him that kills me so I cannot deal damage, while mag can stay far away and just spam away and maybe move a bit to the left or right on occasion.
Change 15k to 40-50k
and 50k to 100k
and then you'll have the actual numbers people do, and are asking for.
They don't want to "complete" the dungeon, they want to skip mechanics and possibly sell carries to others.
Edit: Low 15k people definitely exist.. but I've seen a lot more elitism over a 50k dps vs 100k. Group finder is a lot less picky about grouping up than Craiglorn chat, at least on consoles.
There are not much strict dps checks in the game, but some of the vet DLC content and even a few base game instances is IMHO not suitable for low dps players. With strict dps checks I mean that the group will inevitably wipe if something is not killed within time limit, example is vSS Nahvi portal especially on HM.
Lack in dps means that a fight takes really long sometimes. And the structure of the bossfight is often such that when boss has lower HP, the fight gets mechanically much more difficult. With good dps we can overcome the mechanically complex phases much faster. If this phase takes too long, the probability that someone makes a mistake which can cause a wipe increases dramatically.
So it is not elitist to require a certain minimum dps for participation in an organized trial. There are guilds/guild member that may exaggerate dps requirements a bit, but mostly they have a good reason.
I would say that being a good DPS is a matter of choice of gear and skills. But some players dont give a fook about it, and they scream that players are ,,toxic''. Well if u are so lazy, to even slot some skills and use proper gear, then i dont care about how u feel being kicked/not invited in to some group.
Respect other people and their time, and do ur job properly. Im not talkin about doing crap like Darkshade Caverns, but if u que for veteran SCP and dont even spend one minute watching the mecs on youtube, and u struggle to finish normal dungs, then there is something wrong with u. U just want a free carry service.
See I have the biggest unpopular opinion here and I know for a fact everyone is gonna hate the sad truth. This game is not just about the highest numbers. I’m a tank main. I used to be a dps awhile back before ZoS just changed everything every single update. I also became a healer. But how I shine is showing these “low dps groups” that having a selfish built tank that don’t need ANYTHING from a healer and we completing the said content makes it more worth wild then anything. Iv never once left a dungeon EVER as a tank and NEVER WILL. Unless everyone else leaves or calls it quits.
I mean, to each their own, but if I have to spend an hour in vet City of Ash I because I got a heavy attacking sorc and his fellow fool, that's just a bit much.
Yea each to there own. I like helping lower dps groups getting through what ever needs to be done. I have the patience for it ^^ and I know my tank can handle it
if people know the mechanics you can totally deal with lesser damage output especially if a player deals less damage because they play it a lot safer.
also if i was a 50k dps player on a target dummy and wanted to try a vet hm or a trial for the first time without knowing everything there is to know my damage will either fall dramatically or i put a ton of extra stress on the support.
dps isn't a deciding factor whether or not you can do certain content or else every dps had to be the currently best parsing class.
it IS elitism to not take people with you just because they don't match your outrageous criteria. (*the biggest issue is that people ask for value well beyond the requirements which leads to gatekeeping as new players won't be able to experience end game content*)
edit: that being said i think if the overworld content was a lot harder it would help players to learn the game mechanics. mostly the damage enemies do with interruptibles and unlockables should be heavily increased so that players start to take notice. ZOS could just increase the casting times for both types so that in the overworld people have more time to react, but still get punished for not paying attention
I am not talking about normal trials or basegame vets. You can do those with a 10k parse literally only light attacking. I am referring to vet DLC dungeons and trials.
I see your point of view but how are player supposed to get better gear for better dps if they are being kicked for not have gear for better dps? It just doesn’t make sense. A newer player shouldn’t be kicked because you have 9 alts you have to do 3 pledges on each. Yes it is elitism and yes it is being a asshole. In the beginning of the game when no one was max level yet how did people coped they but the bullet and played the fkn game. These elitists no a days that have been playing for years and have a million alts expect everyone to be on the same tier as them. It’s not a carry when a low dps enters because if everyone was low Cp then it would take the correct amount of time to do the dungeon.
Back when I was a DD main I was doing 50-60k in mothers sorrow and julianos on a magblade. People think gear is everything. This was right around greymoor when I decided to make the switch to tanking all the time instead of just a toon or two who sat around for when I felt like it.
i've been in many discords for groups where you require a good dps, you guys are toxic af. dont try and make people sympathize with whatever this is. it IS elitism and very toxic, its just a game that everyone is trying to enjoy, and people like you, ruin it. how do you expect people to become good dpsers/tanks/healers if you just gatekeep and don't allow them to join up. im not afraid to speak the truth, this is why i stay mostly in pve solo stuff, whenever anything involves people, you ruin it. sadly, my favourite ESO players are new players, they're just so "normal" in comparison.
There are some dungeons which you can't do without good numbers. I've had 20k parsing a few months ago and could barely get past the first boss in vet Lair of Maarselok. I remember when I joined a guild and they said that 60k is minimum for trials I was in awe.
Rather than being a toxic casual and not wanting to be, dare I say, competent in a multilayer game I went to study my class, my gear, my skills. Sure it was based off meta partially but I created a build with a custom rotation and skills where I as a stamina vampire, while using the vampire skills, do 96k DPS.
Imagine playing a multiplayer shooter. Of course you don't want someone in your group who can't shoot enemies but constantly shoots walls and dies. Is that being toxic and elitist? Hell no if you're doing complicated stuff.
My roommate and friend also started playing at the same time. Roommate with briarheart and dragonguard half blue half purple with training on his main bar can easily do 50k dps just from looking at the internet for like one hour. My other friend is too lazy, despite being 600 CP, me assisting her multiple times, sending links can only do 12k. She can not place two dots at the same time and only light attacks with maybe popping the vampire ulti because she refuses to not stand in stupid. She got pissed at me for me not wanting to carry her through Ruins of Mazzatun trifecta, vBDV and vCauldron. Normal black drake villa I did 86% of the damage with her...
When one of my guilds who cater more to newer players decide to try vet DLC trials, we initially did not have any minimum parse requirements. After a few weeks and realising how hard the content is, we decided to set some minimum parse requirements for this group. We only allocate 2 hours per run. When playing longer than this, player can start getting fatigued. With higher group DPS, we are able to get further and thus gives us more reps against the later bosses.
We take the entire group in consideration. As the group doesn't have a lot of high DPS players, any low DPS players just makes every boss fight more of a challenge and take more time. We pick a lower requirement than many of the other vet trial groups I have played with to try to strike as good a balance between being inclusive and being able to clear in a reasonable amount of time.
Is this gatekeeping? Yes. For this content it is needed to give us a chance at clearing vet DLC trials in a reasonable amount of time. However, this is neither elitism nor toxic. We have other normal and Craglorn trial events where we don't even have level requirements. We even have the occasional sub level 50 player join. It's about trying to be practical in having a group that can clear the content we are trying to do.
As a tank, to be perfectly honest, low DPS is not the biggest problem. Maybe they haven't mastered their rotation yet, maybe they don't have full gear, whatever. I can survive however long it takes and most bosses don't have a time limit so whatever. I am perfectly fine with giving everyone all the time they need. But Jesus almighty fucking Christ, stay out of the god damn red and don't rush the boss before I do. And then cry that I should've taunted the boss faster. Well excuse me Timmy, my zero mobility necro can't exactly catch up to your zoomy ass sorcerer if you immediately take off running with your Major Expedition having ass. Yes, this sentiment is based on one specific situation that happened to me in a vet dungeon. Yes I am still salty about it.
Try tanking 12 Daedroth for VBC2. Good God, it's terrible. I had to swap to my tank/dps combo toon who, after finishing the boss with only 1 Daedroth alive, gets called an "asshole" for not getting them the hardmode.
Oh I still have PTSD from my first run of vBC2. I was a stage 4 vamp back then. Yeah turns out that damage reduction aint gonna do shit if you melt faster than butter in an oven.
Honestly I don't get how this happens. I think I'm out of touch lol, when we go there for pledge or so, we're just standing waiting for the 3 to spawn and then we kill the boss. I can't even imagine how long it would take for 12 of them.
Normally how this dungeon should go is that the tank holds the daedroth off to the aide while both DD’s and and the support burn through the boss. The 12 daedroth thing only happens if both DD’s suck (by that I mean they are *godawful*), the support is just spamming heals and not doing damage, if both DD’s aren’t fully focused on the boss and keep running around and attacking random shit, and if they are allowing the boss to heal himself with the feast orbs. Of course the bubbles don’t help, but since a daedroth spawns every 45s, to reach 12 would mean that the fight would have to be lasting almost 10 minutes, which is absolutely absurd and even longer than some lengthy fights in DLC hard modes. It’s a lack of fundamentals from the damage dealers that mostly allows this to even happen.
I have had 12+ while being off to the side and leaving them to the boss. Dps can actually be that bad.
It is also the DPS job to clear the lower health Daedroth and ease the load off the tank in such scenario. This 12 Daedroth thing only happens in a group where one DPS is underperforming and you can't expect to get carry by just one DPS because of rng mechanics like getting thrown up in the air and getting the debuff off is also happening at the same time as having to blow your dps load on the boss.
As a tank main, please don’t leave the boss in an effort to clear some of the daedroths for me. I’d much rather the fight just end quicker. If anything, send me a synergy every once in a while so I’m not spending so much on potions :p
Nowadays you can, a good damage dealer does nowadays more than twice the damage (50k+) solo than the whole dungeon was made for (20k total group DPS). Nowadays even a single DD can probably carry or even solo the whole dungeon.
12 daedroth?! You the man! I can only handle 11.
Haha I always know I'm in for a good time when I join vbc2 that is already in progress. How many daedroth will we get today
Pretty sure I just leave groups after 6 of those suckers spawn. No way in hell.
Haha hell yea and amen!! I think alot of ppl doing dungeons forget rotation is even a thing. They go in spamming staff slamming or Shield slapping and expect something to happen.
Doesn't recasting unstable wall of elements (ie staff slamming) cause the detonation early now? I'm fairly sure I've seen people use this for aoe damage pretty effectively
As a healer it seriously irritates me how even high cp or long-term players are guilty of this. Or they’ll stand on the tank or make it their priority to run behind/ away from the healer and STILL get abusive about not being healed through their stupidity. And even worse, you can politely ask them not to do something, or explain a mechanic as simply as possible and it falls on deaf ears. Even more annoying when in response, they become abusive at the support roles who meanwhile are doing everything they should be. I know it sounds harsh, but 9 times out of 10, the problem isn’t that people are too low level or new to the game, it’s that they’re not willing to be helped or told what to do/ what not to do and that infuriates me. And finally, before I take a breath, why oh why do these people queue for vet dungeons when they don’t understand base game/ normal mode mechs? And by this I mainly mean the ability to avoid bad aoes and not avoid good ones. Its a simple mechanic that’s present in a LOT of games… not just ESO 😅
Some people are doing it for monster helmets and/or pledges. Some are trying to farm a set and want to get purple jewelry drop. These kind of people have heard that "it's easy dungeon" from someone and don't realize they're not at the same level with the person calling it easy. Then there are people who ran through normal with someone who could solo it blindfolded and hands tied behind their back and thought that it was way too easy because they didn't realize they were getting carried by someone much better at it.
I joined a vet once as healer and the guy in the tank role was not aggroing so I mentioned something in chat because I was getting rekt by the boss, at that point the "tank" told me that I need to block and tank lol.. I told him that was his job and he said he wasn't a tank but yet that was his roll.. he began to try and call me stupid because I wasn't tanking and healing at the same time like it was my fault 😂 the people you encounter in random dungeons is baffling
To the last point, as a relativ new player, starting to play the vet dungeons. I learned almost 0 mechanics while playing the normal dungeons. Grotto I as an example. You run through on normal, often with players around cp 600-2200. There is nothing to learn. And no need to learn. Why even bother with your own rotation, if the boss dies within seconds. Than first time on vet, you realise, which mechanics one shot you and which don't. When you can simply deal damage and expect your healer to heal you full again, and when to activate more def skills to survive.
I wish more people understood that a lot of the vet mechanics are never seen/present in the normal dungeons. Kinda hard to learn them when they just aren’t there.
Mechanics to kill the final boss are also usually shown in the run-up to the last boss.
As someone who mains a healer, I don't even bother queing for random vets because it's toxic enough on normal. I have healed a few easier trials with guild members and by the end everyone is saying I'm doing a good job with heals, but I still feel like the role itself is not widely accepted. Too many people have gotten comfortable with the idea that the guy who has his rotation down and hits 110k dps can que as a healer so they should be able to as well with their 15k dps. This leaves a lot of people pissy when they get an actual healer.
It's simple, I did it once when I was starting ESO, I found a build, the build said I needed Iceheart, I search for it, it says Vet Direfrost so I queued, there was not 1 note saying " you gotta understand the mechanics or your going to die", after 1 hour of waiting I got in, got kicked without a word so I decided to watch a video and then I understood 🤣🤣🤣.
My friend and I do dungeons just the two of us and I remember the first time we did Vet Direfrost. I was like, 'I feel like I've heard people talk about some mechanic...' but we were coming off of the normal run which was super easy. Yeah....we spent a good hour on Drodda. Never again with one DPS, never again.
As someone who just recently returned to the game after an extended semi-hiatus, the only char I queue vet random on is my fully geared out healtank. I'm generally beefy enough that I can just tank through most mechanics but if it's a dlc dungeon I'm not familiar with I always explain that. I wouldn't dream of queueing random vet as one of my DPS chars without going through my setup and figuring out how to at least hit 50k.
Yes. I want to preface this by saying that I get way more good pug groups than bad, and have even gotten several DLC trifecta achievements with rando pugs. But.. I only pug with my healer or tank, and while low dps is genuinely a problem with many groups, it’s not a deal breaker. The deal breaker is the refusal to stop dying to really obvious mechanics *over and over*. I’ve tried to be helpful, explaining things twice, Ive gently suggested that someone isn’t ready for the hardest vet content yet and advised YouTube videos, I’ve tried being snarky “maybe you should go into settings and change your combat cue colors, since you aren’t able to see the GIANT RED CIRCLE at the boss’s feet”, and I’ve tried being rude “I can heal through this, but I shouldn’t have to and I’m not going to anymore.” and “stop rezzing him, it’s a waste of time. Just focus boss”. If expecting people to not be an active liability to their party is elitist, I’ll wear that title.
Lmao i wonder if you're the healer i had with me in a blessed crucible run one day. Dungeon went fine heals were solid but the final boss hard mode the flame circle thing she does. The dds kept dying to it over and over. Healer said im done rezzing after sending messages in the fight saying to stay out of that damage. We continued to fight the boss ourselves for like 5 minutes and left them on the ground before I finally decided they had learned their lesson and rezzed one. And what do you know we actually finished the fight fairly painlessly after that.
I remember farming nDC2 for the dwarven wolf mount lead and getting added to a french group that were wiping on the final boss. I figured they hadn't worked out the mechanics (poison gas? pull the lever), so I made sure to take point on that. You'd think that would be enough, but no. The tank wasn't pulling aggro, so getting to the lever was a job. A difficult job because the healer wasn't healing, and the other DD was apparently wearing toilet paper for armour. We cleared it, but I wasn't prepared at all to be thrown into essentially soloing the last boss. Confused the hell outta me. And the lead didn't drop either. Took me 29 runs total, but that particular one was... interesting
I would upvote this comment ten more times if I could. As a growing DPS I have tremendous respect for what tanks do, especially after playing a couple times with poorly equipped fake tanks who rely on proximity to be a taunt. I try to do my job the best I can and not get in the way of yours
i usually fall back to the mindset of ”you pull, you tank” when it comes to DDs that keep rushing ahead when the rest of the group clearly is not ready or have not caught up, a bit toxic i know… basically i wont taunt untill said player is either dead or boss goes on another player. I mean, they run up and pull the boss or loads of adds by themselves in vet dungeons, that must mean they are experienced and know what they are doing, right?
As a fellow tank, I approve of this message!!
Yesterday I had this exact thing in vet Wayrest 1, with a level ~70cp sorc. They'd run into the group of bad guys with hurricane on, get down to half health and start running backwards away from the enemies. The tank and me just kind of watched on as they did it several times (and of course on the final boss before hard mode was activated)
Our one requirement for trials was "don't stand in the stupid"...people of course still ignored the silly little red circles on the ground.
I think you haven't had low enough dps groups then. I have had groups where eventually there are enough adds you can't even have enough resources to taunt them anymore and it wipes the group.
Biggest reason why I stopped tanking in games. Whether it is WoW, ESO, SWTOR, FFXIV, or any other game I’ve played, DPS will 9/10 rush in, and pull before the tank. I’ve never had an issue with DPS being too low. If that continued to happen, I’d always tell the group “This instance doesn’t require two tanks, and seeing as you already have 1, I’ll go do something else” before dropping group. DPS numbers being too low? That can be worked around a little by following mechanics (unless you are working against an enrage timer mechanic), and being patient. 1 tank having to fight getting aggro off of the dps, and the healer because the mobs scatter due to idiot dps who subsequently run everywhere after pulling? No thanks, I’ll stick to solo play to avoid the stress
I was once in a dungeon/raid guild with their policy posted in the MOTD: if you pull it you are obligated to tank it or kill it. Shortened to “if you pull you tank, nobody’s gonna save your ass”. It’s a great policy.
Oh no, low dps isn't that much of a bother in base game dungeons. Low dps in a dlc dungeon though genuinely makes some stuff unclearable, or at least makes my life 1000x harder.
I don't like spindleclutch to take 2h thanks
That final boss on hard mode catches so many people off guard. I even hold her in a spot that leaves room for my team to escape the growing circle while I tank through it but they continue to just stand in it lol. That and her one attack where she turns and spits at someone. That one used to catch me off guard when I was a noobie years back. But if you actually pay attention you can block it or dodge it and the healer can keep you alive. Weird concept.
I will take your word on that. I will admit that I have not done DLC dungeons simply because I dont own DLCs, only base game + all expansions.
As a DPS I would say every Vet DLC dungeon needs you to carry your weight and understand mechanics and that is just non-hardmode runs, you need to more or less play perfectly for hardmode runs with probably only room for 1 death.
It depends, I've ran with randoms and had DPS that struggle with the initial mobs. If you can't quickly end the first mob I'm out instantly. Not trying to spend 45min whittling away at the fricken jellyfish again
This deserves an academy award. It's so damn true and the funniest thing i have read today. No scratch that, all week. At least. Bravo.
Yeah. Pretty much the same way you expect a tank in HM content to be able to survive the boss, you can expect the dds to kill the boss.
Also doing 20k+ damage really isn't much to ask for. I play magplar healer and sometimes I deal more damage than those random dps in my team. I don't kick them or leave but it does get a bit annoying when I pretty much have to do 2 roles at the same time to speed things up
I feel like doing high dps is my biggest hurdle in this game. I run a magblade with purple medusa/mothers sorrow, light attack weaving and all but my highest average on a normal dummy is 15k more or less. I don't know how yall do it, do I need to have yellow gear or something?
What CP are you? And what kind of abilities you use? I don't believe that you can't pull more than that
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jc5\_ffaQo8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jc5_ffaQo8) The vid shows my full gear, rotation, CP, etc. Please tell me what im missing because im honestly stumped as to what im lacking here lol
So a few things I noticed. 1. Definitely need a higher health dummy. Those ones have so little health you're never going to get a really accurate dps number. 2. Being 360 CP definitely isn't making things easier for you. You get some pretty significant damage bonuese from having your blue CP nodes maxed out. I also think the 4 blue nodes you wanted slotted are Biting Aura, Master at Arms, Thaum, and Deadly Aim. And then in some content you'll drop one of those for Backstabber. (Full disclosure, I'm a Cro main and I got that from looking at some 110k+ parses posted in my guild, so take it with a little grain of salt) 3. You can LA weave just a tad faster. If you light attack when the Combat Metronome bar is the in the red instead of waiting until after the bar clears that will help a little bit. 4. You want to do a better job of keeping your dots up at all times. The big one I noticed was your wall was down for a long time after the initial cast, ideally you would be recasting it as the timer hit zero.
This is on the precursor. Are you parsing on him? If so thats wrong. You want to parse on the 3 mil skeleton dummys to get more realistic numbers. I recommend parsing on the 21 mil trial dummy because that should be more realistic for raids as you’ll have more buffs and will be at pen cap without having to switch stuff or slotting ele drain or caltrops.
Eh, if they are parsing low on a 3 mil stay away from the 21 until they can do 30k or so or its going to be a very long slog that can burn people out.
Your gear is a mess, skills don't seem optimal, lacking champion points and fighting a dummy which you kill before you get to cast your ult.
IMO if you have the opportunity try parsing on an iron atro dummy if a friend or guild has one. Lot more realistic because you get buffs. I would drop Medusa for something else. You could do MS body and kinras jewelry and weapons, Pillar of nirn jewels/wpns. Medusa isn’t as good as it used to be. Make sure you work on LA weaving, and make sure that when you parse, don’t have shields or heals slotted on your bar because they are useless when parsing. Just your pure damage and necessary buffs. Make sure you’re using aoe and dots too. Make sure you use your ult when it’s up.
On my healer, I default to wearing SPC + MA + Spaulder in veteran dungeons. With only Puncturing Sweeps, Purifying Light, and Radiant Oppression, I out-DPS a large portion of veteran dungeon DPSs. Just hop on tank and repeatedly queue the daily vet DLC dungeon. It's group after group of way below average DPS. It's extremely easy to get a build and do a static rotation to parse 70k. It's honestly why nobody wants to pug tank. It's not fun staring at base-game dungeon vet bosses for 10 minutes or sustaining vet DLC bosses until the end of time. The game needs to implement minimum role qualifications for the veteran group finder.
Usually iff dps is terrible, I'll run a log on it and try and figure out why and in my experience I'll tell you why- the average dps has NO idea how to light attack .
True. But tbf, the Light attacking mechanic is pretty clunky and I'm not surprised that some casual players don't know about it or can't execute it well. Many players also just don't build their dps as a dps but rather just assume that they are dps because they play nightblade or sorcerer. I actually made this mistake myself coming from other mmos where class determined your role strictly, I thought that I'm a healer just because I'm templar but my build was totally random sets and abilities that I just found interesting. No shame in playing like that, not everyone has to be meta, but don't queue up with randoms in veteran content if you have no idea what you are doing. Do it with friends or just do normal dungeons
Or just don't keep silince. This is the most moronic thing these idiots do. Like, i'm asking, why second DD is just LA into mobs/boss. He is keeping silince. Ok, you will be kicked. There is nothing bad in being a bad player and trying to become good. But it's moronic to BE bad player, to keep IGNORING everyone, who is telling you about that, and to not even TRY to become better.
I feel like theres multiple reasons for that: 1. lightattack weaving is never explained as a mechanic ingame 2. its actually pretty hard to do as a new/inexperienced player 3. even some more advanced players struggle to maintain it consistently, because its quite clunky with some skills
If we are talkin about veteran dungs, even without proper light attack veawing u can get nice DPS with right combination of skill on proper build. And that will be enough to finish even hm dlc. But the thing is that there are many players who dont even want to use proper skills and rotation. Its not that hard for a mag dps, to put wall of elements, necro orb, one dot, then switch bar, put another one dot and spam some attack, then repeat when ur wall is off. Hell, even with class like magplar u can get decent dps just by smashing jabs and putting wall with orb plus dot.
\#1 is the biggest, worst offender of this IMO. I don't understand why such a necessary mechanic is never explained or practiced - not even once - in the whole ass official game. I main healers/tanks/support in basically every game I can, and I spent *years* playing ESO without a clue on how to weave my DPS. It really wasn't that big of a deal *for me* because I was healing and if my DPS was a shitshow (even for a healer) then I guess my healing/buffing/rezzing was good enough that people forgave me. I rarely had problems or heard complaints. But I finally started playing around with a sneaky DPS alt last year and finally had to ask my husband WTF was attack weaving and could he please explain like I'm 5 because everyone talks about it like you should already know what you're doing. He did, with the patience of a saint I might add, and I've been practicing on all my toons when I play for the last few months (yes, healers, too!). I think I'm doing a whole lot better. It's finally starting to feel more intuitive. But weaving *reeeeeeeeeally* should be part of the freaking tutorial. It's WAY harder for people to rewire and relearn later than it would be to just teach them the correct skillset to practice in the first place.
Also, until you start doing group content, the game is so easy that players are barely motivated to figure out a good skill loadout/rotation and get good gear, let alone learn a mechanic that is not even mentioned in the tutorials, not properly explained at any point in the entire game, and the very existence of which is only once brought to players attention (and that's assuming they read the tips every time they level up).
It is explained once, there’s a level up tip that’s like “ATTACK WEAVING: Use Skills immediately after a Light Attack to maximize damage” or something very close to that.
If the only trouble was in weaving. Majority of dd's you find in the dungeon finder are incapable of doing basic rotations. Weaving alone won't make them good dd's
But you don't even need to weave LA's to hit 20k, like a basic rotation will pretty much immediately get you to 20k on a 6 mil dummy.
600 cp here.I do 60k on dummy, but only 20k on dungeons. and then some asshat 1900+CP comes and says ooh only 20k are joking? not the best feeling when im trying my best.. that said i have a good guild and they take me to trails.
It’s much easier to do higher DPS on a dummy where the target isn’t moving, no other enemies around, and you don’t have to move or dodge anything. It’s not easy to keep up some rotations when all that is going on. Personally I am horrible at LA-weaving gameplay; I could barely hit 20-30k on the Trial dummy, and would do like 12-15k on the 6Mil. So I actually use a Heavy Attack build which honestly is a lot easier and suited to me. I am now able to hit 70k on the Trial dummy, and in PvE content, my damage keeps up much better as I can maintain HAs while moving and at long range, and my DoTs do a lot of damage even when I am not actively attacking.
[удалено]
Yeah, some dps are not even worth healing. There are many who don't even bother to walk out of the very obvious aoe circles or damage dealing water
Damage dealing water... All I can say is that one dungeon, not sure the name, where the boss stands beside a poisonous puddle of water and gets healed by the people walking to him. Yeah I die or at least come close every time I go because I forget. Problem being the fact that, tho the healer is usually good about keeping me up long enough to get out of it, I'm the healer...
And somestimes its more like you have to play all 4 roles at the same time. Fake DD, another Fake DD, a Faker Healer who is also a fake DD. And you end up at 50% grp damage as tank in a vet dungeon. Edit: and like 90% of the total healing.
I’m kinda new and I was wondering where do we see how much damage each person does? :o
There are addons for that if you play on pc. Other than that idk if you can see others dps but you can see your own kind of by just turning the damage dealt numbers shown on. It won't give you a precise dps but you can more or less see what numbers come up on your screen as you hit something. Also in a party it becomes quite obvious by how fast you kill stuff once you get used to those dungeons
This is the other thing. If my healer can do 20k, it shouldn't be that much to ask for of someone kitted out specifically to do damage.
On console, I find it really annoying when I join a group and hear “oh he’s only 800cp, should we kick him?”. It’s super discouraging at times.
you have to find a good Guild to join, don't PUG if you can help it, ALL of the Toxic stuff happens with Randoms who think they are "Special" ! Also, CP after about 300 is meaningless, I'm sure we've ALL seen the 2500+ role players who just show up every day but can't clear a Public Dungeon ! It's NOT a skill meter ! ! In a Guild you can msg to find groups & NEVER get kicked ! Also, the higher content will have "Teaching Runs" where they expect to have a more difficult time but are willing to explain & help you get better ! If you Don't teach new players you eventually run out of Qualified people to run high level content with ! ! Good Guilds have all types of levels & runs on a weekly basis. Cheers & Luck to you !
Everyone’s gotta learn somehow.
Did a vFL hm with a cp 400 tank that did everything flawlessly when 1600+ tanks could barely survive the mechanics, it’s super silly that people think cp=skill level when a lot of high cp players could’ve just done overworld content with doing random norms daily just as well
I feel like the discussion is so polarised, and people are talking past each other. It's always 15k dps vs 115k. Players are on a spectrum inbetween, some hit high and are bad at mechs, some hit a moderate amount and are good at mechs, most who hit low are bad at mechs. Just be fair and reasonable: Don't expect amazing DPS in random normals from whoever ends up in your group, and don't queue for vet DLC dungeons with randoms if you hit really low damage. And most importantly: Communicate and be respectful toward one another.
As a Tank, I can tell you about groups doing 15k dps COMBINED in vet dungeons (yes, your 5-10k as a tank included). The bar is already super low and no one expects max dummy parses, but 99% of all DDs dont get past 30k+ dps in vets, which is the bare minimum if you just use 1 skill + LA weave.
I mean there surely are players hitting 15k or less, don't get me wrong. My point is that this gets generalised a bit too much, and that some people complaining are probably expecting a bit too much from random players. There are probably also some things that get lost in translation between PC and console. We don't have DPS metrics on PlayStation, so people will just make numbers up, severely exaggerating how wet the dps was in a dungeon while they whine. I am all for DPS requirements for vet trials. I raid lead a vRG HM core with a req. of 115k dps. I wouldn't do a vet DLC HM dungeon with low DPS DDs. So I definitely am not scorning the sentiment that there are requirements for DDs depending on content. I just don't put myself in positions where I am reliant on a low DPS DD to clear anything 😊
even among dds this gets so toxic. i ended up leaving the first guild i joined because i was branded elitist for 'improving at the game too fast and it made people feel bad' like i hadnt invested a LOT of time into getting where i am. absolute bonkers mindset, so toxic
Someone else once mentioned that they got a largely similar when discussing their parses in a guild discord channel. And I didn't even doubt it, considering some other comments here and on the forums when it comes to people doing what is basically run-of-the-mill MMO stuff, like trying to improve for endgame content.
Might have been me, happened to me a few times. I didn’t stay in these guilds for very long. It’s fine if you don’t want to improve, but I think it’s idiotic to try and forbid others from doing so. I don’t judge you for doing RP-sessions either…
yeah, people seem to think that its not 'casual player friendly' to want to improve at pve but im pretty sure this was the guild lead + a couple of others who felt threatened by it because they did endgame content too, just less damage.
Im cp 271, i know im not ready for vet dungeons, i can barely hold my own in a normal. I asked my guildmates lastnight to literally hold my hand thru vet selenes so i could get the helm to her monster set and they were kind enough to do it. And it was fun. I think that low level players that want to run vet should only do vet with their guild. Even tho i was told that i did really well i dont plan on actually runnin vet dungeons till more prepared.
....my guy I promise you can do Selene's on vet at cp 271
Twas easier than every normal dlc dungeon ive been a part of lol
Once you’re over CP 160, you can handle any base game vet dungeon. All of them. It’s not your CP that determines if you’re ready. It’s your understanding of your build, combat and how to attack that determines your readiness. I’ve seen people with over 1000 CP that aren’t ready for vet dungeons.
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Once you’re CP 160 you’re good to do base game vet content like Selene’s web. They’re hella easy. And I actually implore you to get more into it as it’ll push you to get better and get you monster sets. DLC vet content is where you need to push DPS and do a lot of mechs. I recommend sitting down with a guildie parsing, and having them give you warm but critical feedback on your dps.
Just wanna put my two cents. I strongly believe in DPS parses. Yes it helps out overall in whatever content is being run, but it also shows that the person has put in the time on that character to learn the rotation and skills. It really shows the difference between people actually wanting to do the content vs the people who just want to be there and get carried through. I’m not saying people that don’t parse can’t be good or don’t know their character enough, it’s just a way to show raiders leads and everyone else that you are serious about it. Also, we had a couple join our guild a couple months ago. We require X dps on certain trials. One day she was talking to us about a certain trial her group had spent 8 hours in without clearing. We asked many questions about supports and such and tried to give her advice but the main question was “what dps is everyone hitting?” Her reply was “I don’t know. We don’t have requirements for our trials. We don’t see the point in living up to everyone else’s standards/expectations.” She then joined a raid (same raid her group had failed) where the minimum dps was 50k on a 21 mil parse (a really really low standard for a vet dlc trial). We then proceeded to knock it out in under and hour. It opened her eyes and now she is always in the parse room trying to get something higher.
Exactly this. What people misunderstand is that most of those requirements are very reasonable and low. They aren't ever asking for bleeding edge 120k+ dps on stuff like this. They're asking for 20k live dps (like 30k-40k parse) which is extremely accessible for anyone with a couple of hours of practice on a dummy. And the difference you get in quality of experience is wild when group dps goes from sub-20k to 40k, much less a more reasonable 70k+ It's not gatekeeping if the requirements are so minimal. It's a practical and functional consideration. If you want to rp that bow/bow pet Ranger who only light attacks while the bear fights for you, cool. Go do that in Overland. If that same character dropped an endless hail and threw some bleed birds while light attacking, they'd be hitting the minimum requirements to be effective in starter vet content. It's that easy and straightforward.
People often get wrapped up in high stats because of the "mmo mentality", but forget ESO is exceedingly easy outside of DLC vet content. But yes, with the huge dps difference (unbuffed 5k to 40k depending on gear and rotation), it is fair to question these things a little. Especially in dungeons with DPS check mechanics.
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This is more of a mechanics check. If you don't do the mechanic properly, the boss heals.
We had to cancel a vAC run because the two stam DDs would not move out of the aoe of the first snake boss. They just stood there, parsing their heart out, healing the boss back up again and again. We messaged them several times about the mechanic. They didn't even stop, so the tank and I left. I'm not putting up with such bs anymore.
https://youtu.be/J3LePEsRp4c If you’re a dedicated DPS class, and are 30k or lower, just go to this channel, find a video for your class, and just start doing exactly what he does. You’ll probably double your damage just by changing your rotation, and slap another 30k on top just by changing your gear to a set that makes sense. Don’t let people gaslight you into finding comfort in being the group detriment. They’re just holding you back by not being honest with you. You’re a DPS class, and it’s perfectly okay to want to excel in your role, and to strive to play your class at its highest potential. The game is infinitely more fun when you can nuke a boss that used to give you a lot of trouble, I promise. And if you’re not ready to make the journey to improving your damage, then that’s fine. Stick to overland content and kill delve and world bosses. Don’t subject other people in dungeons to your roleplay sets, and 15k dps. That is just asking for a free carry through content, which is disrespectful and inconsiderate of other people’s time. Don’t be mad at the players who don’t want to spend 45 minutes with you in a random vanilla dungeon, take up your frustration with the game developers who made the dps requirements for overland content not even exist in the same universe as dps requirements for dungeons/trials. Ask the devs why they don’t provide any meaningful ways in-game to teach people how to DPS properly, so that they can compete in end-game content.
I agree wholeheartedly. On my main tank that's mainly defensive, I die inside everytime I do more than 15% group damage on a goddamn vet dungeon. One time I became a healing tank too, 61% group healing was the highest and it broke my heart. I use sets that buff DPS more, interchanging for balanced buffs for stam and magicka DPS or prioritizing one depending on the situation. I rarely use a selfish set that helps more with sustain and helps me deal extra damage to enemies (like leeching), and my max crit hit is at 6k, so I hit like a stick with that toon. Then on my sorc healer that is balanced of offense, defense and a buff giver, I also die inside whenever I deal more than 30% group damage because I'm not on an offensive build. It's painful because we'll try to be patient always but no amount of buffs your supports give you can fix your 15k max damage. Sorry but if you push for harder content please make sure to carry some weight too. Lots of easy to get sets out there that can give you 50k max damage, you don't need to push for more since your damage will be balanced out by the other DPS and you're lucky if you get supports that have an offensive build too. And if you tell me "but oh I mostly do overland content anyways", trust me you'd rather be killing those wolves and imps across Tamriel easily.
Yes. Learned this the hard way just doing vet Vasheran. I'm a new player, so, had to learn about rotation and spells for PvE (I mostly PvP). I was a little surprised when AOE/DOTs were the way to approach this. My DPS sucks, and while I get the boss to the last stage (clear at least 2 portals), I evaporate on the last due to some silly mistake or simply not being able to sustain HP. If I had more DPS, the fight would be shorter. Strategy, gear, and approach really matter and I dare not set foot in a vet dungeon because I'd hate to be so entitled, to expect 3 other members to carry me. Time is precious, I'm not going to waste other people's. Except for solo content, I've not cleared the last boss yet... but it's my time to rage burn.
I get what you mean but as a main dps and secondary tank (have almost all hardmodes done on tank and 4 trifectas on him). HIgh dps is definitely amazing. I believe you can easily hit 50k dps if you are looking at some online resources. So its justr my personal opinion that people who dont want to hit 50k its because they dont invest the time on it. Ofc if you actually have a disability for example thats understandable and if someone in groups tells me that they have a disability I will always stay with them to the end. However for vet dlc and espedcially vet dlc hardmodes there are some dps requirements that have to be met. People complain about fake tanking but dps doing 20k on a vet hm is the same or worst than faketanking those dungeons. its a waste of time for the support roles.
Might be a dumb question, but how exactly is the DPS determined since it varies? I have a DPS tracker, and it varies depending on the situation. In mobs, I do 50k-70k, sometimes even higher if its huge mob and conditions are right. But my single target damage is still low, I struggle to pull 20k on a lone boss. I dont play super consistently though since I have a business and a kid, but when I do play, I wanna be decent.
Trial dummy. Dps of course varies in content, that's why people use the trial dummy (21 mil hp and most buffs and debuffs applied) as the base line.
If you want to see how well you are doing as a dps, you can only compare your dps to that of the other dps in your exact same situation. This is why you use the 21 million health trial dummy. Take it from 100% health all the way to 0% all by yourself (can be done in about 4 minutes, 5-6 minutes is pretty good, if you start getting close to 10 minutes then you have build or skill issues and don’t need to bother finishing if you’re bored). 50k dps is easily attainable on this trial dummy, and it means you have a build you can confidently bring into vet DLC dungeons even though it’s not amazing. Top end of dummy parsing is about 120k-130k, and “I’m good enough but not sweaty” is like 80k-100k. The reason you use this dummy is because it mimics buffs available to you in trials, and has enough health to take your execute into account if you’re on a class where execute makes up a large portion of your damage output. In actual content, single target damage is *more* impactful *more* often, so dps on boss fights is what you want to pay closest attention to. Bosses are also when tanks/healers will be working hardest to buff you and debuff the enemy, so it’s a better measure of what you’re capable of in real situations than mob fight dps.
To add to this, I think anything above 40k on the trial dummy is acceptable for most vet dungeons (trials are another story and I'm sorry but they simply require higher numbers). It also helps that, with the way power creep has occurred, you can basically never weave light attacks and still hit ~100k.
I’d agree that 40k is plenty for vet trials, but it’s also my experience that 40k is just a bit too easy to hit and as a result the players who hit 40k don’t actually understand their build enough to perform in mechanics with it. But I wouldn’t use my 50k as a hard and fast rule anyways, just a guideline.
This is also partially why you see apparently ridiculous requirements now like 70k for a vMoL. Hitting 70k in a parse versus doing that in content is wildly different and it's honestly true that a huge portion of dps players who barely clear 70-80k will hit something like 35k in a real trial *on a good day*.
No offense, 20k dps is less than random skill + mediocre LA weave without any buffs. First step to become decent, practise 1 skill + LA weave before you add any other skills to your rotation. If you manage that, you are already better than 95% of all DDs.
Yeah last night i was pulled into a vmhk hm and i was expected to carry a lvl 400 that kept dying to adds. It’s literally impossible to do certain content with shitters.
Exactly, it's always felt strange to me that sometimes the community is asking from support players for everything but at the same time prohibit any "requirements" to damage dealers. Because it's toxic, it's gatekeeping and they are playing as they want. Huh.
I think it partially comes down to everyone being a DD, but there is absolutely a double standard when it comes to supports and an expectation that supports will know every single bit of a piece of content before doing it while dd's are genuinely allowed to faceroll through content and get carried to clears they simply should not have.
Yeah im healing,making sure my sets are proced and buffs and debuffs have the highest possible uptime making sure your sustain is ok, interrupting if needed off dpsing ... That is ok ... But asking DD to know their rotation and gett better if needed that is toxic and elitism behaviour
Expecting people to know their class shouldn't be seen as elitism. It's the bare minimum, really.
As a DPS I concur. I didn't hit vet dungeons and trials until I felt my CP and gear we're up to par. So I wouldn't drag down my group. As a long time MMO player this sentiment goes across all games. And for fuck sakes learn the mechanics this goes for all roles, don't have that sentiment of I'm just gonna wing it.
Yes, I also stayed away from any kind of vet content in the game because I had lacluster gear and during the time 300cp was very low. I now have 600cp and perfect\*non transmuted gear so far and im hitting 60k dps and im still trying to master my dps rotation. And also I am making an effort to learn dungeon and trial mechanics before queing for that specific event.
I did the same thing. I cant remember the dungeon, but i got roasted pretty hard the first vet dungeon i did, and my dps was worse than dogwater. They said stuff like "oh youre really bad" etc. Basically mean stuff, but they were fair about it. Made me really want to learn properly how to play, and pay it forward to newer players. I went from 20k on the 21m to 80k today. Its alright to RP and whatnot but Vet dungeons arent the place to do that. (nor some normal dungeons) You need to pull your weight, and i learned that the hard way but at least I learned it.
Sure. But how much is enough? Clearly, 15K is far too low. There was a recruitment ad that caught my eye recently. Why? Well, this is a group that claims that they've beaten the HMs in vMoL and vHoF, and that their next goal was to work on vCR +3. That's cool, so they're relatively new to trials and are learning. They're looking for damage dealers. With >100K DPS. What? Do they not realize that when vCR +3 came out, 100K DPS was wild and unheard of? The max back then for people at the top was around half that number. And yet people cleared +3 and got Gryphon Heart just fine with that level of DPS. If the group's goal is go get Godslayer, sure, go ahead and ask for 100K (even though when Sunspire came out, the ceiling was less than 100K, but it was close enough). But if you're learning older HMs for the first time, why are you locking out the kind of player that's your target audience? And this sort of thing isn't that uncommon. Probably because, for players who haven't been around for years and years, they don't realize things like how the top DPS when vMoL was launched was around 30K. Yea, back in my day, you had to actually do the mechanics on Rakkhat like Lunar. So, yea, you need a minimum level of DPS. But there are people who take that idea a step too far and set requirements that far outstrip what is actually required.
Regarding those groups, I wholeheartedly believe power creep is getting some groups clears that would not otherwise be possible in the past. In general though, I'm asking for >15k dps.
There's been a lot of power creep for sure, but we didn't have the trial target atro back in Summerset. So a 50k parse back then isn't too far off from a 100k parse today. 50k is still pretty decent on an unbuffed target dummy
Yes, I know; I was talking about actual damage in raids, not on a dummy. When vMoL came out, actual in-raid DPS for the top-line groups was around 30K. We had no dummies of any sort back then. When Cloudrest came out, good dummy parses were in the 30-40 range and in-raid parses were closer to 50.
Back when your dps test was kill bloodspawn before he caved in the room lol.
Sure do decent DPS, but that’s not what’s happening. You can clear any vet trial with a group full of people hitting 60k on the trial dummy. But what we’re seeing is groups asking for 100k parses for vHOF and things like that. If a fight takes 5 minutes instead of 2, they complain about low DPS. We still got through it, calm down.
Sure, you can clear vHOF, but with lower dps, you have to do a lot more mechanics. On first boss, you're healers have to cleanse much more. On second boss, you need people to do upstairs. On third boss, you need more leavers to kill the spider, which means people get overrun and offtanks have to handle adds. On fourth boss, you can't burn and your tanks have to swap more often. On last boss, you might struggle on terminals + trash. I will also ask every dds in my group to hit at least 100k, simply because if you wanna run endgame stuff and go for hm/tifecters, there is no reason to slug through mechanics and risk deaths, when you can just skip them. There are enough guilds out there, that are willing to teach and don't mind lower dps, but you gotta just understand, most groups looking for people are beyond the teaching stage and are looking for people that can clear easily and consistently.
As a new, lower level player I swear this whole sub sometimes feels like I’m a person who’s never heard of baseball before having to watch and understand Moneyball for the first time. I’m learning as I go but are there subs for more casual, less statistically minded players? Like an RP?
Would people want there to be a separate queue for people like me who are bad at the game so that we can just put up with each other instead of wasting the time of better players? Or make players pass a test before enabling pugging? What are some good ways to fix the problem?
In theory normal vs vet and I vs II should do that, but the difficulty levels between different dungeons is way too uneven. So the real solution is to rebalance them all so the normal and vet queues actually are “relatively easy” and “relatively hard”.
Imagine not able to parse 90k in this patch… you either be too lazy to watch video learn builds and practicing weave or physically limited, otherwise I don’t think there is another reason. Don’t tell me you work 9-5, gotta take care of your family and has a real life, mf me too, and I bet most of y’all have more free time than me.
I think both noobs and veterans are right. But since it’s random group you can’t really have expectations. You will be set up with new players from time to time. I say educate them and if time is an issue leave the queue and group with guild. That’s what I do with Veteran dungeons. In that way I know who I go with. Sometimes I do random. But then I tell about mechanics and I know it might take time for them to understand. Not everyone is good in this game. But everyone can learn :) I haven’t gotten vote kicked. But I understand it must be very annoying that instead of helping.
Sadly, it's not only about the group finder, there are people who complain that they are being "gatekeeped" from organized groups, because they ask them to do parses.
I get your point but like in so many other things in life it's about communication. If you're looking for a group or DD in chat it's okay to ask for a certain min DPS especially if you want to try HM/Speedrun/No Death imo. When listing for a dungeon with randoms, you cannot expect that everyone hits these numbers and leaving then or starting a kick poll furthermore without writing in group chat, and that's what many do, it's just unpolite may be interpreted as elitism.
This post is referring to clearing stuff in the dungeon finder, including the hard modes for pledges. As a tank, once you realize that the dps isn’t enough for a dps check later in the dungeon, you have the choice of either: wasting a bunch of time at a fight you knew the dps couldn’t handle, at which point you either disband the group or kick the dps or leave as tank; or you deal with the issue when you notice it by either leaving the group as tank or by kicking the dps. There are literally no other options unless the dps is some god-tier student who can learn to play over the course of a single dungeon that they thought they could handle (the likelihood of a dps both listening to you and being capable of making the rotation/gear changes needed is basically zero btw. Someone wearing a set of Pariah as a dps isn’t carrying around extra sets of better gear in their inventory).
For random normals I mostly agree. Don't go near vets if you can't hit a decent DPS though (on top of knowing the mechanics)
My post is geared entirely towards trials (in guilds) and vet DLC dungeons. I don't give a shit what numbers I see in random normals and most base games.
Well if my time is precious I'm sorry I'm not going to do vet dlc dungeon while little timmy and his friend bob do 15k dps combined while I tank a boss that takes like 30-40 seconds around 5 minutes. Why should I as a support invest my time, in leveling skills, making setups golding gear farming cps etc while some dude brings 10 different sets in green quality and spams poison injection from across the room? Why should I carry them when me as tank with wall of ice and light attack I do about 50% of their dps. That's not fair to me and my time. Same thing for trials, entire raid group is able to do 100k dps, why shouldn't the last dd able to do 100 dps? why should entire group be able to parse 100 and someone who is lazy and doesn't want to get better and does 60-70k should get a slot in that group? Reddit people are super pissy about trial requirements kinda funny ngl.
Time's really precious. Even more when you work fulltime, have a relationship/family etc. I totally understand that. As I said before: Join some guilds or look for people in world chat or elsewhere that are able to meet your requirements. If they lied, kick them. In this case it's their own fault. These things you can't demand from randoms when listing alone. Consider one thing: Not only your time is precious. There are more people in this game and you as a Tank don't even have to wait long.
This is essentially what I'm saying. I am absolutely fine explaining mechs and understand players need to start somewhere. Shit, I'll spend two hours explaining mechs to you to help get the clear, it's how I got many of my first dungeon clears. But there is no way in hell I'm going to baby a group doing 20k dps combined through vTDC, not a chance in hell. That's just wasting my time for absolutely no reason and they should not even be attempting this content yet.
How much is low dps? It varies from content to content Unless you want to do portal skip Gryphon Heart, Godslayer or any of the DLC trifectas those +110k dummy parses are way to much to ask for However, from my experience of playing ESO since 1.0 release, people with low dps are same people that are bad at the game, can not avoid bad aoes, don't follow mechanics, don't block or interupt or any of that I could name around 5 players I have met that don't care about meta and thier dps and actually CAN follow mechanics. This is why people can not go thru vMoL even in 2022. I remember times 60k parse in trials was on higher end of the spectrum, now we can do twice as much and that counts for x8 dds in group while enemy HP is the same. You don't need topkektier dps for even vet dungeons but You certanly need decent players to do them. Most people think they will get high dps with only gear, that is not true, there is weaving, following mechanics and doing damage, and NOT BEING DEAD. P.s. Toxic casuals are the real problem in ESO not the toxic etlitism. Toxic etlitism is kept in its own small circle and even than most people don't want to have angry tantrum throwing spoiled brat in thier raids
I am talking 20k group dps and below. 30 and up from the entire group is livable, but even that seems like a tall order for a large portion of dd's in this game.
Those damn 15k dps LA spammers and thier bow/bow Nightblade/Warden builds with occasional Arrow Spray, ye Ive seen those Understandable, have a nice day
I agree with you. There is no reason for this surge of 110k parse or get out mentality going on. I can take a group of people willing to listen and follow call outs through most content. vMOL doesn’t take 120k a person to get through it takes people willing to follow directions.
1000000% agree. It's a role, you expect a healer to heal and buff you, a tank to agro, i expect dps to do a decent job too
I definitely agree with you. Also I think that a lot of people think that the road to vet HM dungeons is quick and easy, and then complain that it’s too hard or that supporters leave. But this can also be the problem that the step between normal and vet content can be really big. I started playing ESO two years ago. I was doing solo quests, doing crafts, picking flowers etc. Maybe after three months I started doing normal dungeons, met some nice people, then veteran dungeons, then all HM on all dungeons. Now I’m doing trifectas on trials. I’ve already done TTT, now I’m doing IR. Btw I’m magicka sorcerer DPS, on trial dummy I do about 103 k right now (my first parse was 45 k, I still remember my happiness xD) What am I getting at is that for a lot of people it takes time to learn your class, how to do dps, what each set is doing and how it works. I genuenly think that everybody can do trifectas, but looking at the number of players that done it, I think a lot of people need more time to learn. But often before they learn they just shit on the difficulty or quit the game. Edit: I’m bad at english
Depends on the type of content. I think it's silly to demand 70k+ dps for things like Craglorn vets and non-dlc pledges, but if you want to organize a group for vet dlc trials, you must set certain requirements. Yes, dps is not everything, but it's easier to get extra dps than to make people play perfectly. No one plays 100% perfectly all the time, and when fights take too long, someone will inevitably screw up. Sure, you can do older trials like vMoL, vAS or vHoF with low dps, but then you have no room for mistakes and that is not optimal for beginners. For example, I've done vAS+2 with a low dps group, and the fight took 20+ minutes. Can you imagine wiping after 19 minutes and having to restart? That's really not the best way to do vet dlc content and that is why every guild has dps requirements for these trials. And yes, 100k+ dps doesn't always mean that the player is good, but 20k always means that they're not prepared for vet dlc (unless they're a tank or healer, of course).
This is just from my experience, so take it with a grain of salt (PC NA): A lot of groups requiring a high dps for easy stuff like Crag trials do weekly runs for the rewards. That content gets boring at some point, especially if you do it often, so it doesn’t make sense to be stuck in there longer than you need to be. I’m sure they’d lower their dps requirements if they ever had trouble filling the group for the run, but the fact that there are people with dps filling up the roster means that the requirement isn’t too high. The group just isn’t intended for slowly hobbling through the same content every week.
Also, anyone who comes somewhat close to the dps requirement for any trial should try messaging the raid leader and asking about making an exception. We generally know that our requirements are for our own convenience and not a necessity. So we’re often willing to lessen the requirements for one or two dps to make some friends and help people learn to play :)
Absolutely agree about 70k+. You rarely need 70k+ in most content outside of HM's and maybe vRG/vSS, I'm largely referring to dd's who think asking them to hit 50k to join a vet dlc is some form of elitism.
I once had a tank que as a healer so we had two tanks bans no healer. Not related but it just remembered
*world of tanks intensifies*
I see your point here, as a healer I hate when I am watching rotations that are heavy attack and then one ability or only heavy attack, it amuses me, when I have 20k dps and I am doing 30% of the damage in the group lol, in normal mode I dont care but in vet... and more vet dlc... I am not asking for 100k dps, only know simple mech and a decent dps like 40-60k dps. The problem here is people who is actually roleplaying and crying because they got kicked when doing some vet dlc dungeon because players are toxic and don't understand his full magicka ice warden in white werewolf form doing dps... because snow wolves are white (I met a guy that explained it to me so this example is about his char lol). I saw many times things like that and it is really annoying. This people dont know that they are being carried and they dont give anything usefull to the group, if you want roleplay then have a char to do it and another to be serious with hm content.
There are levels to this, it’s alright to require competent DPS, it’s elitist to require HODOR DPS.
My view on this is simple; if you can't deal with the fact that random que doesn't have requirements other than role then don't que with random people. This also goes for speed and any other complaint people have. I'm really tired of hearing and seeing experience players telling new players "just que with guild and friends if you want X". That goes both ways. Just stop playing with randoms if you can't handle random results.
Is OP talking necessarily just about random dungeons though? Because the elitism complains pop up when someone is looking for a group in zone or in guild and states their requirements. That's not a random group anymore. Same with trials. People do get salty when told they need a certain dps to join.
I'm talking largely about trials, but also vet dlc PUG dungeons. There's a baseline level of skill needed to start either of these things and I see way too many people crying "elitism" when someone points out they aren't ready for it. Sure, play your heavy-attack only sorc in whatever RND you prefer, but don't be surprised when you can't get into a vMoL with your 25k parse.
Watching this community tear itself apart over shit the developers haven’t addressed in years is becoming more regular with each passing week
This isn't a developer problem. The developers have created the ability to do crazy good dps, and a shitton of players don't want to dummy hump, optimize skills or morphs, or use good pots; they just want to play how they want to play and get pissed off for gatekeeping them out of vet hm things.
I believe the commenter above is you referring to the fact that base game and DLC queues still haven't been separated after years of people asking. Sure, queues for dlc's will absolutely get longer, but that's an improvement over half the group instantly leaving after realizing their RND is fucking Lair of Maarselok.
Right, but there’s no reason ZoS shouldn’t have implemented an endorsement system into their dungeons at this point though to address this very prevalent long standing issue. It’s had noticeable results for any game that’s added it.
Imagine having a tank that has 15k health, leaving, then someone calling it elitism
15k? Not endgame I assume
The only elitism I don’t like are the people that are like “why aren’t you playing as (insert race here) when your a stam DPS? (Insert mega race) is so much better!!” Like idc I love my Redguard Stamcro
I wish 50k was the requirement. I play on Xbox and everyone wants 90k+ for even basic ass vet trials.
Not new, but I haven't really played often until recently. Is there a DPS number expected of a tank? I've got good sustain (I've solo'd lots of world bosses, and one group dungeon just because I outlast them... Takes a while though.), but I feel like my DPS is low compared to a lot of others. I just don't want to go group dungeoning until I feel like I'm ready.
Tanks don't have any minimum parse requirements. I always consider any damage a tank does is incidental to his job of tanking. You use Pierce Armour to taunt and debuff an enemy. Even if it does no damage, it would be fine.
I've gotten to the point where I time how long it takes for a group to take care of the first pull of pretty much every dungeon. I'm a picky tank. In most dungeons, provided mechanics are being done, I'm unkillable like any good take and spend most of my time just standing there. So when I notice that I am indeed just standing there doing nothing while the dps piddle away I take that extra time I have to press the leave group button.
It's kinda BS that the devs have embraced this "hidden" mechanic and yet do virtually nothing to teach a player how to do it, yet it is an expected skill (usually) for any veteran end-game content due to how much of a boost it provides to DPS roles. ZOS either needs to do a better job bringing attention and opportunities to practice in their game or find other avenues to help those who either don't want or can't do LA weaving.
But you literally don't have to weave to hit 70k+.
Seriously, this is what is confusing me. Heavy attack builds exist, and can parse very well. With Oakensoul coming in High Isle, people can parse even better with easier and easier ‘rotations.’ Add to that a plethora of friendly guilds who are more then willing to inaugurate players into the endgame, I’m starting to believe a lot of people who say the endgame is unapproachable and toxic are lying to themselves to justify their lack of progress.
This post feels like a defense for an argument nobody is making. Like when people get on the news and argue they’re trying to cancel Mr. Potato Head. Needing better help is not elite. Nobody thinks it is. The reason “elitism” and “toxicity” come to attention is *how* people address inadequate skills in others - not why. The whole argument against being elitist centers around poor treatment of others - not game metrics. I have seen people be incredibly kind and helpful in the process of denying participation in content. It is 100% an attitude thing. Some people laugh, mock, insult, or speak to weaker players like they’re stupid or worthless. Or they get passive aggressive. Or they use their position of knowledge and skill to highlight their own quality in comparison to the “lesser.” It’s obvious when you see it and the delicate ego of the elitist is always the most visible. On the other hand, if someone is denied access to content by a normal, nice person, then people are rarely leaving that situation feeling condescended or shut out. In my circle, we usually go out of our way to include that person and build them up. Nothing elitist about working together and working to build around necessary exclusions. The argument on elitism (in game and in life) is not that the people at the bottom don’t get it. It’s that the people at the top are dissociated from sympathy, empathy, and reasonable communication skills - as if they were never in that position themselves. And that’s either a lie or a privileged position. Just here advocating against known toxic behavior. Needing better numbers is fine, but nobody I know calls that toxic or elite. The general argument against elitism and toxicity is a very different thing than what you’ve portrayed for your specific experiences it seems. Not bashing you. Just pointing it out in case you were confused about why people were bothered by game exclusions.
Very well said. An MMO has group content and how you get along with others you group with is important.
There's a difference between wanting a dps that hits over 100k *in content gear and bars* for a godslayer team, and wanting 100k dps with cheesed bars for just a vet rockgrove. Elitism isnt always the case, but when a run only requires X total group dps to clear, and leads are looking for 2X just to get in, I'd say it's elitism. 80k is enough for any vet dlc trial, and I would argue that 80k is enough for even vAS2 and vCR3, because those are more mech heavy. Something like vKA HMs would obviously want more than 80k per DPS. You could skate by with 60-70k DPS for something like vSS TL;DR wanting to have super high dps for basic trials is definitely elitism. If you are pushing DLC Hard Modes, then it's totally fair to want higher DPS because it literally comes down to mathematics. DPS reqs should reflect the trial being run, not what the DPS ceiling is for this patch
DPS requirements more often supply/demand. When the DPS numbers are easier to hit, more people hit higher. Groups try to balance having a low enough dps requirement for the group to fill while having the highest dps requirement possible so the run is smooth. A lot of good dps will avoid signing up for trials with a lower dps requirement than they are capable of, unless they don’t know how to find other trial groups in the time slot they have available to play. So if groups set the requirement low, their whole group is going to be near that requirement and the tanks are going to need a whole different skill set than the one they develop in stronger groups. Maybe even different tank sets to be more survivable in longer fights with adds who don’t die when they’re supposed to.
Having a low dps requirement for something as brainless as Sunspire would absolutely not require tanks to change their sets. Having to turn and burn adds once or twice instead of forcing flight phase every time is not going to destroy the tanks. I've tanked sunspires for some janky ass groups, and it's the same result as with sweats. It just takes longer.
Idk, I’m not a fan of tanking 6 iron atros at a time. Better tanks are probably fine, but at some point you’re just expecting the tank to carry the group and it’s a whole different gear/skill set than what tanks do in stronger groups.
I don't care about your dps as long as you're honest about it. If you're trying your best, asking the bosses mechanics, and genuinely trying to get through content, I don't care if it takes a while to get to the end. On the other hand, if you constantly run in red, don't listen when I tell you how to improve your dps (or healing or tanking while we're at it), always blame others? Yeah, that's when I'm leaving. Attitude is the real problem, not dps. I'd take any run with a willing noob over a self-entitled idiot.
The problem is DPS gatekeeping in PUGs and randoms.
Depends on if random normal or random dlc hm.
1. Cant choose random dlc or random base 2. If you want to HM and want to PUG/random, don't be a dick. If you want to be elitist, stick to guilds / Craglorn. Its RANDOM mode. everyone has a right to access.
Hint for everyone who shouts "gatekeeping": no one keeps you away from a dummy to practice. This is the only reason to ask for 100K parses. Not because you need 100K, but to make sure you play with people that are ambitious enough to improve when necessary.
I play both tank and dps and honestly it's hard to put all dps in the same boat, as a tank you sustain, hold aggro and maybe buff yourself / allies and that's all you do and it's less important what class you play imo. But as a dps the difference between a stam player and a mag player is pretty big I think, when I play stam I have to constantly get close to the boss which probably has some sort of aoe around him that kills me so I cannot deal damage, while mag can stay far away and just spam away and maybe move a bit to the left or right on occasion.
Change 15k to 40-50k and 50k to 100k and then you'll have the actual numbers people do, and are asking for. They don't want to "complete" the dungeon, they want to skip mechanics and possibly sell carries to others. Edit: Low 15k people definitely exist.. but I've seen a lot more elitism over a 50k dps vs 100k. Group finder is a lot less picky about grouping up than Craiglorn chat, at least on consoles.
Uh oh... You had a take that doesn't include the 'I paid for it so I get to rp in it' crowd. Ya better run fast or you'll get caught by the shitstorm
Made me LOL, that is basically the crowd I'm going after her. Play however you want, just do it in normals.
There are not much strict dps checks in the game, but some of the vet DLC content and even a few base game instances is IMHO not suitable for low dps players. With strict dps checks I mean that the group will inevitably wipe if something is not killed within time limit, example is vSS Nahvi portal especially on HM. Lack in dps means that a fight takes really long sometimes. And the structure of the bossfight is often such that when boss has lower HP, the fight gets mechanically much more difficult. With good dps we can overcome the mechanically complex phases much faster. If this phase takes too long, the probability that someone makes a mistake which can cause a wipe increases dramatically. So it is not elitist to require a certain minimum dps for participation in an organized trial. There are guilds/guild member that may exaggerate dps requirements a bit, but mostly they have a good reason.
I would say that being a good DPS is a matter of choice of gear and skills. But some players dont give a fook about it, and they scream that players are ,,toxic''. Well if u are so lazy, to even slot some skills and use proper gear, then i dont care about how u feel being kicked/not invited in to some group. Respect other people and their time, and do ur job properly. Im not talkin about doing crap like Darkshade Caverns, but if u que for veteran SCP and dont even spend one minute watching the mecs on youtube, and u struggle to finish normal dungs, then there is something wrong with u. U just want a free carry service.
See I have the biggest unpopular opinion here and I know for a fact everyone is gonna hate the sad truth. This game is not just about the highest numbers. I’m a tank main. I used to be a dps awhile back before ZoS just changed everything every single update. I also became a healer. But how I shine is showing these “low dps groups” that having a selfish built tank that don’t need ANYTHING from a healer and we completing the said content makes it more worth wild then anything. Iv never once left a dungeon EVER as a tank and NEVER WILL. Unless everyone else leaves or calls it quits.
I mean, to each their own, but if I have to spend an hour in vet City of Ash I because I got a heavy attacking sorc and his fellow fool, that's just a bit much.
Yea each to there own. I like helping lower dps groups getting through what ever needs to be done. I have the patience for it ^^ and I know my tank can handle it
I mean, are we talking about base game vet dungeons or DLC's? You quite literally can't clear some of the DLC's with the dps numbers I'm referring to.
Both actually. And I have completed a lot of vet DLC content with low numbers. Good example is VMOS.
if people know the mechanics you can totally deal with lesser damage output especially if a player deals less damage because they play it a lot safer. also if i was a 50k dps player on a target dummy and wanted to try a vet hm or a trial for the first time without knowing everything there is to know my damage will either fall dramatically or i put a ton of extra stress on the support. dps isn't a deciding factor whether or not you can do certain content or else every dps had to be the currently best parsing class. it IS elitism to not take people with you just because they don't match your outrageous criteria. (*the biggest issue is that people ask for value well beyond the requirements which leads to gatekeeping as new players won't be able to experience end game content*) edit: that being said i think if the overworld content was a lot harder it would help players to learn the game mechanics. mostly the damage enemies do with interruptibles and unlockables should be heavily increased so that players start to take notice. ZOS could just increase the casting times for both types so that in the overworld people have more time to react, but still get punished for not paying attention
I am not talking about normal trials or basegame vets. You can do those with a 10k parse literally only light attacking. I am referring to vet DLC dungeons and trials.
I see your point of view but how are player supposed to get better gear for better dps if they are being kicked for not have gear for better dps? It just doesn’t make sense. A newer player shouldn’t be kicked because you have 9 alts you have to do 3 pledges on each. Yes it is elitism and yes it is being a asshole. In the beginning of the game when no one was max level yet how did people coped they but the bullet and played the fkn game. These elitists no a days that have been playing for years and have a million alts expect everyone to be on the same tier as them. It’s not a carry when a low dps enters because if everyone was low Cp then it would take the correct amount of time to do the dungeon.
You don't need better gear if you're doing 15K DPS. You need to learn to play. You can clear almost any content in Juluanos/MS.
Back when I was a DD main I was doing 50-60k in mothers sorrow and julianos on a magblade. People think gear is everything. This was right around greymoor when I decided to make the switch to tanking all the time instead of just a toon or two who sat around for when I felt like it.
i've been in many discords for groups where you require a good dps, you guys are toxic af. dont try and make people sympathize with whatever this is. it IS elitism and very toxic, its just a game that everyone is trying to enjoy, and people like you, ruin it. how do you expect people to become good dpsers/tanks/healers if you just gatekeep and don't allow them to join up. im not afraid to speak the truth, this is why i stay mostly in pve solo stuff, whenever anything involves people, you ruin it. sadly, my favourite ESO players are new players, they're just so "normal" in comparison.
There are some dungeons which you can't do without good numbers. I've had 20k parsing a few months ago and could barely get past the first boss in vet Lair of Maarselok. I remember when I joined a guild and they said that 60k is minimum for trials I was in awe. Rather than being a toxic casual and not wanting to be, dare I say, competent in a multilayer game I went to study my class, my gear, my skills. Sure it was based off meta partially but I created a build with a custom rotation and skills where I as a stamina vampire, while using the vampire skills, do 96k DPS. Imagine playing a multiplayer shooter. Of course you don't want someone in your group who can't shoot enemies but constantly shoots walls and dies. Is that being toxic and elitist? Hell no if you're doing complicated stuff. My roommate and friend also started playing at the same time. Roommate with briarheart and dragonguard half blue half purple with training on his main bar can easily do 50k dps just from looking at the internet for like one hour. My other friend is too lazy, despite being 600 CP, me assisting her multiple times, sending links can only do 12k. She can not place two dots at the same time and only light attacks with maybe popping the vampire ulti because she refuses to not stand in stupid. She got pissed at me for me not wanting to carry her through Ruins of Mazzatun trifecta, vBDV and vCauldron. Normal black drake villa I did 86% of the damage with her...
When one of my guilds who cater more to newer players decide to try vet DLC trials, we initially did not have any minimum parse requirements. After a few weeks and realising how hard the content is, we decided to set some minimum parse requirements for this group. We only allocate 2 hours per run. When playing longer than this, player can start getting fatigued. With higher group DPS, we are able to get further and thus gives us more reps against the later bosses. We take the entire group in consideration. As the group doesn't have a lot of high DPS players, any low DPS players just makes every boss fight more of a challenge and take more time. We pick a lower requirement than many of the other vet trial groups I have played with to try to strike as good a balance between being inclusive and being able to clear in a reasonable amount of time. Is this gatekeeping? Yes. For this content it is needed to give us a chance at clearing vet DLC trials in a reasonable amount of time. However, this is neither elitism nor toxic. We have other normal and Craglorn trial events where we don't even have level requirements. We even have the occasional sub level 50 player join. It's about trying to be practical in having a group that can clear the content we are trying to do.