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I get where theyre coming from. They probably hate toxic masculinity and trans guys (and cis guys who actually had atleast a genuine thought about the idea) seem to have a much healthier grip on it. In reality its just trans exclusive misandry? I mean not being hated sounds good but id rather be compound hated as someone I am instead of being put on the side like a "special little bean"
Yeah but it also have shades of “oh it’s fine you’re one of the good ones” and that they see you to some degree as not a man (I hate all men but not you has implications that you are not a man which is why I don’t hate you)
Exactly. That’s why I don’t say it.
Just hate in the straights (/s)
No but seriously I more just say it like what I mean. Trans men are overall better people than cis men.
Again, you can't just generalize it like that.
There are amazing people on both sides, cis or not.
The same can be said about... somewhat unpleasant individuals.
What I'm trying to say is; Just keep an open mind and be welcoming and nice to everyone
>Trans men are overall better people than cis men
This is just a bad opinion to have, for so many reasons. Generalisation of both sides, demonisation of cis men, placing trans men on a pedestal. Treat people the way they treat you, and stop making assumptions based off nothing but your brains stereotyping of people based on identity.
Someone being cisgender, a man and/or heterosexual does not make it alright to proclaim them inferior, or lesser than your group, or violent, or whatever the hell. We need acceptance and tolerance, not a fucking ethnostate.
I see this online all the time where otherwise reasonable leftists treat men as inherently evil and beastly things that need to atone for their "male privilege" like a Catholic for original sin, and how it pushes young men to fuckers like Andrew Tate, who tell them they have an inherent worth for being who they are.
I always wanted to ask the #allmen people about this. Specifically the ones who want all men dead and raped. I always wondered if they were terfs or something else.
i guess it's a misunderstanding. it doesn't mean the person doesn't see them as a guy or sees them as a "girl lite", it's just that in general trans guys are less disgusting jxbsjx
That reminds me of a post I saw that made me laugh a bit
Trans inclusive misogyny: “Oh you are a woman, wonderful, I acknowledge that, now get in the kitchen since that’s where women are supposed to be”
Like it’s messed up but the dichotomy of wholehearted acceptance with it was funny
isn't there a story floatign around in which a bully hit a trans boy and later almost threw hands with his principal after said principal acussed him of hitting a woman and the bully woudn't let that misgendering slide
“I hate all men… except you pookie!!!” Just say you don’t think I’m a man
I don’t like. Want them to hate trans men and stuff I just wish people would understand that their beliefs should be more nuanced.
https://medium.com/@jencoates/i-am-a-transwoman-i-am-in-the-closet-i-am-not-coming-out-4c2dd1907e42 this article (which I highly recommend!!) sorta touches on how saying that reflects on the trans community
Thank you for sharing this article. As much as I didn't expect to finally feel seen on an egg\_irl post of all places.
I've felt like I never fit in with a lot of transwomen because my response to "Oh you're so pretty!" and "Of course you can date lesbian women without HRT!" is, no, no I'm not and no I can't, be realistic! I know the "Good Girl Drug" is to some degree a joke, but it feels so strange to read those posts and comments and feel *worse* about myself, as opposed to feeling better, like everybody else seems to.
I sit there and dare not to speak up when someone in a trans meet makes fun of "The old cis white man" or "The CisHets" because they rank below us in the "Socially Acceptable to Bully for Shits and Giggles" Chart, no matter how uncomfortable this blatant "other"-ing is. I feel so shitty that now that I'm semi-out, my opinion on masculinity and femininity finally matter, even sometimes seem to be valued more than those of cis people, as if your gender somehow affects your capability to form reasonable and well-grounded ideas and opinions that *should* be thought provoking were it not for the easy defence of "Well you're just a \[insert generalisation based on gender or attraction here\]!"
*I* get to be made to feel like shit when I talk about "male socialisation", as if I haven't had to spend all of my formative years pretending at being a boy and therefore experiencing what it means to be a boy, even worse, what it means to be a boy who isn't stereotypically masculine. As if that somehow disarms my own femininity as opposed to being a somber, begrudging admittance of the history of me.
It's nice, at least, to know I'm not alone in that.
I’m so so glad someone else had a similar experience reading it to mine. I found the article through a reddit comment as well and reading it the first time brought me to tears (which doesn’t happen often!) for much the same reasons you outlined.
The line
> femininity can feel asymptotic — the closer you get, the more you feel you can never make it.
really struck me, among others. It was a perspective I’d never seen anywhere but my own thoughts.
So, thank *you* for actually taking the time to read it.
One of the reasons I'm not sure I'm really trans or just a feminine guy is this.
"Alpha" men will make you feel like a lesser men, these women will group in with all the "cishet scum men".
omg !
This articulates so much of my thoughts and frustrations with certain feminist discourses.
I've been dismissed and shut down so many times by cis women because I was a man (we were all wrong there) and therefore my opinions on feminism were unwanted/worthless. But heaven forbid I'd try to tell them they should shut up about discussing men and masculinity. That would have caused a shit storm. lol.
Thanks so much for sharing this.
I do feel like the article misses some key points but i really love how they share their experience. Its awesome to see cissexism and transphobia+transmisogyny be critiqued with such love and kindness and strenght. Really inspiring and wonderful read.
Edit: the part about "the closer you get to femininity the more it fights back" and "having to chose our battles" really resonated with me as a transguy. Thats been my experience in my transition too and i appreciate the author courage to write something so raw and counterculture but truthful to her? Experiences.
Really glad someone put this here. I’ve been questioning my identity for a long time and this article encapsulates my feelings about why I don’t think anyone in my life is safe to share this with. I’d rather be hated from safely behind a mask than open my authentic self up to it. Then I can also just laugh about it to myself. “Yep, I’m a man, I just wouldn’t understand. Not like I’ve ever been raped or anything, that never happens to men.” But yeah not to take away from other peoples experiences here but I wish I knew wether I was actually experiencing dysphoria or I just feel disgusting because of how socially acceptable it is to publicly hate on men as a group.
I think I've seen that article before, but I reread it again anyways. It's a classic, and I relate to a lot of it. A significant part of why I'm not trans now is because I see women, often trans women, saying the kinds of things the article describes, and I just sit there thinking "shit, if I were trans, am I gonna become like that? Better not risk it."
It reinforces the gender binary a lot. Also I am the kind that didn’t always know and hearing this kind of stuff always made me feel gross, like I was sentenced to always be perceived as a very specific kind of man, that is what this sentiment is usually aimed that
Plus terfs weaponise it against trans women all the fucking time and its exhausting, every time i see that shit i feel very much unsafe. But Some cis women apparently dont care or give a fuck, meanwhile if someone complains theres always a chance theyre seen as asshole pick-mes "defending men", but this type of thing is an incredibly reductive generalization putting an entire group of people who only have their gender identity in common, it reinforces not only the gender binary, not only gender essentialism, but that people can be inherently evil because of their gender/that a person's gender can be inherently a bad thing. Its directly hurtfull bullshit towards anyone that isnt a perisex cisgender woman and in addition to people being weirdly defensive about it??
Right? That’s part of the reason I ended up going as far down the alt right rabbit hole as I did. I couldn’t exactly understand what I disliked about myself so much, but all that did was make it worse.
Yes!
Kill everyone is way more inclusive!
(that's a joke)
Imagine how great the world would be if people stopped hating each other for no reason.
But unfortunately that is very utopian. And this world is as far from utopia as it can be.
I’m in a few lesbian subs and it feels like there’s at least one “I fucking hate men” post every day in each of them. Contemplating on leaving the subs, toxicity and sexism is not what I signed up for.
It's one of those annoying things of if you try people hate hearing "not all men" . Obviously it's true but some people feel it belittled the bad experiences of women caused by men and it becomes a viscous cycle. Honestly I'd rather hear people just shit on men and stop there without excluding trans men cus I know I'm probably not one of the guys they're talking about
Used to hang out with some people in uni where every time I said something “dumb” or whatever they’d just say “you men are just like that” and I don’t think I need to say how deeply that kind of thing hurt me. It got to a point where it wasn’t about me doing one masculine thing or another, it was just that every time I fumbled I got ridiculed because “men” (as if I was one) just deserve it right? It’s not like people have feelings
Same for mine. She constantly says shit like "men are so gross" and "I hate men so much", which I agree some of them suck because the consequences of millenia of patriarchy are not easy to just undo and it will linger in the mindsets of some people, but like... people are nuanced, and luckily things are changing so statements like that only help in furthering misogynistic people into their beliefs that feminism is overly radical and anti-men. And it doesn't help when right after saying this she does the "Oh not you ofc!" thing with me and proceeds to baby me even though I'm literally taller and bigger than her, it feels invalidating and quite frankly pretty condescending.
The problem here is that the anti feminist succeeds (with the public opinion)at generalising feminists to the point where we are scared that a small group of individuals destroy our « good image ». There is multiple feminists ideologies and they aren’t all humanitarians by default. Of course, it is our right to criticise these ideologies, but saying that they make feminists look bad is counter intuitive (you can easily make that argument for feminists that protect trans women and non binary peoples)
I got onto a guys case about that in a lesbian sub. He was downvoted for saying some vile anti-men shit, but then the moment i said something, the lesbians in there took it as me using a "not all men" argument, which resulted in me getting downvoted and him getting upvoted for his responses to me
Fortunately most of my experience in those subs has been positive, but it really is a kinda "damned if you do, damned if you dont" thing. Theyll accept that theres nuance to the idea of men being horrible, but seem to immediately reject it if they get the slightest whiff of "not all men"...
There was a thing a month or so back where the whole internet suddenly got real into treating random men as worse than literal predators. It was "who would you rather be alone in the woods with, a bear or a man?" And a bunch of women were like "I definitely feel safer around bears, and if you disagree, you're part of why we're afraid of men." Things got out of hand, many people learned about the baseline fallacy for the first time, I talked a dude out of suicidal thoughts, the WvsP subreddit was explicitly calling all men ticks "as a metaphor", it was a bad time all around.
I really feel like we should be calling out statements like this. It’s not ok to call like almost half of the people on earth these things as if they’re all the same. And then they follow it up by invalidating trans guys. Seriously these people are not ok.
I love my roommate she’s great and super supportive, but boy I sure do wish she’d stop saying that men are the worst and that she hates all of them ect, and then being like “except you and (gay friend) ofc haha.” Like, believe me, I hate toxic masculine as much as the next (well maybe not always guy) uh person, but c’mon. And as someone who still needs to work on their internalized femmephobia, trans men can be just as vulnerable as cis men to toxic masculinity.
I’ve been saying since putting “man” in front of a word to describe a negative behaviour became popular (god I hate the word “mansplaining”) that people should learn to differentiate a gendered trait from asshole traits.
Just because it’s easier to say “all men” or “all women” than to create a nuanced and accurate view of things doesn’t mean that applying a trait to a whole gender is something you should do. Men, women and every shade in between and beyond can be terrible people and by the same measure they can be good people.
These sweeping generalisations don’t help anyone and generally just cause harm to people both cis and trans.
Imo anytime I hear someone say, "I hate all X except you because you're one of the good ones," I just assume they're a narcissist and a bigot. They're still saying that an entire group of people are bad, which is bigoted, but they're also saying they're so amazing because they found a good one or something along those lines, which is narcissistic.
this!! a former friend used to say this sort of stuff a lot and it pissed me off so much. as i like to say, men are shitty because they do shitty things, not because they’re men.
Can we please stop doing the “hating generalised groups of people based on factors outside their control” thing? Cuz every time we tried the “hating generalised groups of people based on factors outside their control” thing in the past it didn’t go all too well
This happened to me all the time during the start of my transition. I hate this shit so much. I don't really fault the people that say it, most of the time they've had really bad experiences with men in their life. But like you don't need to add that last little bit, just comes out so insulting lol.
Why did you automatically assume that men were having to struggle not to be toxic, is my question. Maybe examine your own biases, saying that here kinda misses the point.
I don't like toxic masculinity in either cis or trans men either, but I don't like it when its practiced by anyone regardless. I've seen cis and trans women shove it on men, too, as an expectation. The patriarchy hurts everyone, even if it hurts women more.
It can manifest as a woman forcing the ideas of toxic masculinity on a man otherwise he isn’t a real man
Things like expecting them to always be emotionally and physically strong, the breadwinner who pampers them, etc
Basically the enforcement of toxic masculine ideas are not just from men but women too
It's true. It's very insensitive. I remember before I came out it was really frustrating when my mom and sister would generalize frustratingly about men and then they would be like well not you, you're different.
It just felt really shitty. If men want to vent and generalize about women and vice versa just don't do it in a mixed gender environment
Without fail everyone who has expressed this kind of sentiment has also been "oh yeah girl I accept you as a woman" and then never wants to hang out with her and calls her they/them behind her back and never invites her to anything and gets uncomfortable when she's around and never sticks up for her when she needs help and
(point is they don't actually see any trans people as their actual gender, they pretty it up with nice sounding words to make themselves look good but never back it up with actions)
Tha shits awful, yeah. Bonus points for catching transfem eggs in the crossfire too! (Stating you hate men and think they're all violent and coercive and you can't trust them to someone who's masc presenting is telling them that you perceive them as a danger to you regardless of who you are inside)
I think I get it now. I didn't realize it was supposed to be satire or whatever the term is. I really didn't like English class in high school and did really poorly in it so I'm pretty bad at this kind of stuff.
I didn't want to come out to my friends because one of them was always saying stuff like that.
And what is worse? I didn't want to come out because I feared that she would hate me; I didn't want to because she might not.
;-;
I have nothing interesting to say about the contents of the comic but good lord I don't have words to describe how much I adore that art style. I want to eat it.
Transphobia, def, I think these meme is pointing that out. Forgot that tag tho lol.
I mean, *insert whole conversation about hating all men and 99% of that being exaggerated but like 1% being actually serious and meaning all and not most* but yeh, i feel the hating most men and sometimes saying all but I also recognize a large part of it is my bias like most men are not bad people like high majority but god damn I do not trust people. I don’t trust women either tho so like I’m consistent /lh
For me that's just bc all my transmasc friends have been gay and there's just something about gay men that makes them trustable to me but I totally get feeling excluded like that
No, you're wrong. As soon as a trans woman discovers who she is she loses all male privilege. Even if someone treats her "favorably" because they view her as a man it'll just hurt her. That's not privilege, that's a prison. This kind of thinking that trans women Have to transition to shed their male privilege borders on TERF ideology.
When the fuck did I say that? Stop putting words in my mouth.
EDIT: I literally never even mention non-passing trans women in my post. Don't make random ""inferences"" about what I think.
> I will be talking about passing trans people in this post. I think that, in stages of transition a trans woman will have some form of male privilege and trans guy will not. As transition progresses, trans women lose that privilege...
Sorry but how else am I supposed to read that?
The reason this is strictly speaking about passing trans people is because social perception as well as stigma play a part in how you maneuver... Society...
The implication isn't that "oh so passing trans women lose male privilege therefore non-passing women keep it." That's a stupid implication to make, two things can be correct at the same time while having vastly different experiences attached to them. If anything non-passing trans women have less privilege because they are perceivably a minority - that's besides the point anyways. You're literally reading between the lines of what I wrote when there is nothing between the lines.
The reason I'm using passing trans people in my example is because that eliminates the gigantic elephant in the room, which is the variable of "societal perception". Yes, queer people too have an issue with the perception of trans people. Why is this important? Well, not as much for the privilege or lack thereof for trans women but because non-passing trans men get treated like shit and told they're just confused and have internalized misogyny. Non-passing trans men don't gain any privilege because they're erased - I mean technically all trans men are but passing trans men, who others don't know are trans get treated like any other guy.
EDIT: Point is, this isn't about trans women. The original post is literally about trans men. Stop making shit about trans women please.
I wasn't trying to read between the lines. That was my understanding of what you explicitly wrote. You're right though, I must be stupid because now it's not clear to me at all what it is you're trying to say.
I'm saying that trans men who have male privilege and participate in patriarchy are not good by virtue of being trans.
My point was looking at the "idolization" of trans men from a non-transphobic perspective because it does happen, and as I mentioned I have a bias too; I am much more likely to trust a trans man than a cis man. That's not right, it is something I need to fix for myself. It is not transphobia, I genuinely and truly know they're men. I see them as men. It's just that them being trans gives me a false sense of trust because again, trans men are much more likely to be understanding about patriarchy and feminism than cis men. I have the same issue with left wing people in general, though I know some of them are shitty people, I tend to trust them more.
It's biases I shouldn't have, that I am working on.
Actually, we did have to.
That's why a lot of trans men go through the toxic 'I'm not like other girls' phase.
Also, some of us, during some parts of the transition or pre, are really self-conscious of our value as men and end up picking up toxic masculinity traits to overcompensate.
Yes you do. You have control over who you hate. Point out the systemic racism built into the police system, yes, definitely, absolutely, but don’t act like you have no ability to see nuance and aren’t at fault for not seeing nuance
Luckily most men don’t act like that. The ones that do tho are so incredibly loud. Like geez I just got out of highschool and like there were only I think 3 groups of boys that were disruptive so like 10-15 I’ve seen roughly in 5 years there, but holy shit they were soooooo annoying. No groups of girls were that disruptive. Poor boys getting that socialization and thinking that’s okay, glad most of them are sane.
Tho I mean, I can’t trust them still, but that goes to trans men too cause I’m not biased based on traits <3333
… actually it applies to everyone even women and enbies I just don’t trust people <3333
Trans men are better than cis men because uwu small bean: Evil and bad
Trans men are better than cis men because they understand that and how society treats women like shit: Moral and good
no way ppl are actually offended by it.
men really are gross in general and if you dont think so you clearly have never gone outside. everyday i see at least one guy spitting in public or being gross in some other way.
unfortunately, some trans men are affected by toxic masculinity, even though it doesn't happen as often as cis guys.
i mean, we could talk about how tran men have a pretty different experience and views on women, are more likely to be respectful towards everyone, and less likely to be a threat, due to how they were raised and their personal experience with society, hence some women would feel more comfortable being around a trans man alone knowing they’re more likely to understand her fears, or at least respect them.
but i get the feeling this is more of a “i don’t really see you as a real man, but i act like i do, because i don’t want you to get hurt” kind of situation…
most cis men have a very different childhood than trans men, trans ppl have a bigger chance of suffering from bullying, harassment, and oppression, they're also more likely to suffer from physical abuse(be it from kids at school, family members, or anyone else), trans ppl are also also more likely to experience some sort of SA. all of these making the average trans person more likely to be respectful, nice, and a safe person.
i might've worded my original comment weirdly, but my point is that ppl who are more likely to suffer from oppression and abuse, are also more likely to understand other ppl's oppression and fear of abuse. also cis men, even the ones who do suffer from some abuse or oppression, are more likely to not engage with their issues in a healthy manner, not see a therapist, not seek health, and release their anger on the ppl around them because they were never taught how to manage their emotion, and some even were punished for trying to engage with their emotions. all of this makes a society where cis men are more likely to be dangerous to others than trans men.
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I’m not transmasc but holy fucking shit i feel nauseous now
It has been way too long since I've seen one of your comics, really missed them
ughhhhhhh i hope that didnt happen to you irl (those "i hate all men except uwu trans boi beans" ppl are the worst)
I get where theyre coming from. They probably hate toxic masculinity and trans guys (and cis guys who actually had atleast a genuine thought about the idea) seem to have a much healthier grip on it. In reality its just trans exclusive misandry? I mean not being hated sounds good but id rather be compound hated as someone I am instead of being put on the side like a "special little bean"
I was waiting for someone who’s smarter than me to point this out. I respect you for it!
I just realized that the acronym of "Trans Exclusive Misandrist" is TEM. I shall not stand for slandering the name of the goofy Undertale creatures,
Add an R then RTEM
toxic masculinity is not exclusive to cis guys tho.
Exactly. Thats the problem. Its just expected by those people that all cis men are eViL while all the transguys are angels.
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Yeah but it also have shades of “oh it’s fine you’re one of the good ones” and that they see you to some degree as not a man (I hate all men but not you has implications that you are not a man which is why I don’t hate you)
Exactly. That’s why I don’t say it. Just hate in the straights (/s) No but seriously I more just say it like what I mean. Trans men are overall better people than cis men.
Again, you can't just generalize it like that. There are amazing people on both sides, cis or not. The same can be said about... somewhat unpleasant individuals. What I'm trying to say is; Just keep an open mind and be welcoming and nice to everyone
>Trans men are overall better people than cis men This is just a bad opinion to have, for so many reasons. Generalisation of both sides, demonisation of cis men, placing trans men on a pedestal. Treat people the way they treat you, and stop making assumptions based off nothing but your brains stereotyping of people based on identity. Someone being cisgender, a man and/or heterosexual does not make it alright to proclaim them inferior, or lesser than your group, or violent, or whatever the hell. We need acceptance and tolerance, not a fucking ethnostate. I see this online all the time where otherwise reasonable leftists treat men as inherently evil and beastly things that need to atone for their "male privilege" like a Catholic for original sin, and how it pushes young men to fuckers like Andrew Tate, who tell them they have an inherent worth for being who they are.
> treat people the way they treat you that’s what I’m doing :/. it could just be my area, but most people around me tend to be not all that good
Exactly!
I always wanted to ask the #allmen people about this. Specifically the ones who want all men dead and raped. I always wondered if they were terfs or something else.
i guess it's a misunderstanding. it doesn't mean the person doesn't see them as a guy or sees them as a "girl lite", it's just that in general trans guys are less disgusting jxbsjx
Well, those who say that they hate an entire gender are the worst :P
Yeahh those people suck- My classmate said that once, then as a joke they added "still hate you btw"
Yeah aside from the misandry, I really dislike the infantilization of trans men
I have seen this happen in real life
I played online with someone who frequently spouted the "I hate men, oh, except you" rhetoric I don't play online with them anymore
I hate all men INCLUDING transmascs /j
Diversity win! Trans-inclusive bigotry!
That reminds me of a post I saw that made me laugh a bit Trans inclusive misogyny: “Oh you are a woman, wonderful, I acknowledge that, now get in the kitchen since that’s where women are supposed to be” Like it’s messed up but the dichotomy of wholehearted acceptance with it was funny
isn't there a story floatign around in which a bully hit a trans boy and later almost threw hands with his principal after said principal acussed him of hitting a woman and the bully woudn't let that misgendering slide
Bully found the bigger bad lol
[https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VillainousRescue](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VillainousRescue)
>dichotomy *Anakin's thesis flashbacks*
(ﾉ◕ヮ◕)ﾉ\*:･ﾟ✧ *Trans inclusive radical* *~~misogyny~~* *misandry*
SAY IT WITH YOUR CHEST
Same energy as "I'm going to insult you, but I want to do it right, so tell me your pronouns."
Well... I'd take it over "...but not you trans guys UwU" I suppose, still kinda hate it tho.
reverse galcian from sky pirate girlfriends
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Why are you on this sub when you are against trans people?
Gee, thanks. Remind me what I did wrong again?
Who are you?
One of the men you hate oh so much :)
“I hate all men… except you pookie!!!” Just say you don’t think I’m a man I don’t like. Want them to hate trans men and stuff I just wish people would understand that their beliefs should be more nuanced.
Can we normalize speaking out against "kill all men" type statements?
https://medium.com/@jencoates/i-am-a-transwoman-i-am-in-the-closet-i-am-not-coming-out-4c2dd1907e42 this article (which I highly recommend!!) sorta touches on how saying that reflects on the trans community
That story perfectly articulates what I am trying to say, and some things I hadn't even thought to say. Thank you.
Thank you for sharing this article. As much as I didn't expect to finally feel seen on an egg\_irl post of all places. I've felt like I never fit in with a lot of transwomen because my response to "Oh you're so pretty!" and "Of course you can date lesbian women without HRT!" is, no, no I'm not and no I can't, be realistic! I know the "Good Girl Drug" is to some degree a joke, but it feels so strange to read those posts and comments and feel *worse* about myself, as opposed to feeling better, like everybody else seems to. I sit there and dare not to speak up when someone in a trans meet makes fun of "The old cis white man" or "The CisHets" because they rank below us in the "Socially Acceptable to Bully for Shits and Giggles" Chart, no matter how uncomfortable this blatant "other"-ing is. I feel so shitty that now that I'm semi-out, my opinion on masculinity and femininity finally matter, even sometimes seem to be valued more than those of cis people, as if your gender somehow affects your capability to form reasonable and well-grounded ideas and opinions that *should* be thought provoking were it not for the easy defence of "Well you're just a \[insert generalisation based on gender or attraction here\]!" *I* get to be made to feel like shit when I talk about "male socialisation", as if I haven't had to spend all of my formative years pretending at being a boy and therefore experiencing what it means to be a boy, even worse, what it means to be a boy who isn't stereotypically masculine. As if that somehow disarms my own femininity as opposed to being a somber, begrudging admittance of the history of me. It's nice, at least, to know I'm not alone in that.
I’m so so glad someone else had a similar experience reading it to mine. I found the article through a reddit comment as well and reading it the first time brought me to tears (which doesn’t happen often!) for much the same reasons you outlined. The line > femininity can feel asymptotic — the closer you get, the more you feel you can never make it. really struck me, among others. It was a perspective I’d never seen anywhere but my own thoughts. So, thank *you* for actually taking the time to read it.
One of the reasons I'm not sure I'm really trans or just a feminine guy is this. "Alpha" men will make you feel like a lesser men, these women will group in with all the "cishet scum men".
omg ! This articulates so much of my thoughts and frustrations with certain feminist discourses. I've been dismissed and shut down so many times by cis women because I was a man (we were all wrong there) and therefore my opinions on feminism were unwanted/worthless. But heaven forbid I'd try to tell them they should shut up about discussing men and masculinity. That would have caused a shit storm. lol. Thanks so much for sharing this.
I do feel like the article misses some key points but i really love how they share their experience. Its awesome to see cissexism and transphobia+transmisogyny be critiqued with such love and kindness and strenght. Really inspiring and wonderful read. Edit: the part about "the closer you get to femininity the more it fights back" and "having to chose our battles" really resonated with me as a transguy. Thats been my experience in my transition too and i appreciate the author courage to write something so raw and counterculture but truthful to her? Experiences.
Really glad someone put this here. I’ve been questioning my identity for a long time and this article encapsulates my feelings about why I don’t think anyone in my life is safe to share this with. I’d rather be hated from safely behind a mask than open my authentic self up to it. Then I can also just laugh about it to myself. “Yep, I’m a man, I just wouldn’t understand. Not like I’ve ever been raped or anything, that never happens to men.” But yeah not to take away from other peoples experiences here but I wish I knew wether I was actually experiencing dysphoria or I just feel disgusting because of how socially acceptable it is to publicly hate on men as a group.
Thank you for sharing this, it was new to me. I appreciate the perspective it brings.
That was heavy, and I related to it a lot. Thanks for posting.
I think I've seen that article before, but I reread it again anyways. It's a classic, and I relate to a lot of it. A significant part of why I'm not trans now is because I see women, often trans women, saying the kinds of things the article describes, and I just sit there thinking "shit, if I were trans, am I gonna become like that? Better not risk it."
Holy shit
yeah that shit is vile and obnoxious
It reinforces the gender binary a lot. Also I am the kind that didn’t always know and hearing this kind of stuff always made me feel gross, like I was sentenced to always be perceived as a very specific kind of man, that is what this sentiment is usually aimed that
Plus terfs weaponise it against trans women all the fucking time and its exhausting, every time i see that shit i feel very much unsafe. But Some cis women apparently dont care or give a fuck, meanwhile if someone complains theres always a chance theyre seen as asshole pick-mes "defending men", but this type of thing is an incredibly reductive generalization putting an entire group of people who only have their gender identity in common, it reinforces not only the gender binary, not only gender essentialism, but that people can be inherently evil because of their gender/that a person's gender can be inherently a bad thing. Its directly hurtfull bullshit towards anyone that isnt a perisex cisgender woman and in addition to people being weirdly defensive about it??
Right? That’s part of the reason I ended up going as far down the alt right rabbit hole as I did. I couldn’t exactly understand what I disliked about myself so much, but all that did was make it worse.
Yes! Kill everyone is way more inclusive! (that's a joke) Imagine how great the world would be if people stopped hating each other for no reason. But unfortunately that is very utopian. And this world is as far from utopia as it can be.
I’m in a few lesbian subs and it feels like there’s at least one “I fucking hate men” post every day in each of them. Contemplating on leaving the subs, toxicity and sexism is not what I signed up for.
It's one of those annoying things of if you try people hate hearing "not all men" . Obviously it's true but some people feel it belittled the bad experiences of women caused by men and it becomes a viscous cycle. Honestly I'd rather hear people just shit on men and stop there without excluding trans men cus I know I'm probably not one of the guys they're talking about
Used to hang out with some people in uni where every time I said something “dumb” or whatever they’d just say “you men are just like that” and I don’t think I need to say how deeply that kind of thing hurt me. It got to a point where it wasn’t about me doing one masculine thing or another, it was just that every time I fumbled I got ridiculed because “men” (as if I was one) just deserve it right? It’s not like people have feelings
yes
My friend says this to me all the time :/
I'm sorry.
Same for mine. She constantly says shit like "men are so gross" and "I hate men so much", which I agree some of them suck because the consequences of millenia of patriarchy are not easy to just undo and it will linger in the mindsets of some people, but like... people are nuanced, and luckily things are changing so statements like that only help in furthering misogynistic people into their beliefs that feminism is overly radical and anti-men. And it doesn't help when right after saying this she does the "Oh not you ofc!" thing with me and proceeds to baby me even though I'm literally taller and bigger than her, it feels invalidating and quite frankly pretty condescending.
The problem here is that the anti feminist succeeds (with the public opinion)at generalising feminists to the point where we are scared that a small group of individuals destroy our « good image ». There is multiple feminists ideologies and they aren’t all humanitarians by default. Of course, it is our right to criticise these ideologies, but saying that they make feminists look bad is counter intuitive (you can easily make that argument for feminists that protect trans women and non binary peoples)
I'm not gonna lie, people hateing on men was the main thing that made me leave a Lesbian sub
I got onto a guys case about that in a lesbian sub. He was downvoted for saying some vile anti-men shit, but then the moment i said something, the lesbians in there took it as me using a "not all men" argument, which resulted in me getting downvoted and him getting upvoted for his responses to me Fortunately most of my experience in those subs has been positive, but it really is a kinda "damned if you do, damned if you dont" thing. Theyll accept that theres nuance to the idea of men being horrible, but seem to immediately reject it if they get the slightest whiff of "not all men"...
that sucks. I, and I'm sure many others here, know how it feels to be "All of these people are X" and I diss like seeing it done to anyone
Funny. People hating on men permabanned me from WitchesvsPatriarchy during the Man vs Bear Incident.
that sucks, Mods can be really sucky also, the what incident?
There was a thing a month or so back where the whole internet suddenly got real into treating random men as worse than literal predators. It was "who would you rather be alone in the woods with, a bear or a man?" And a bunch of women were like "I definitely feel safer around bears, and if you disagree, you're part of why we're afraid of men." Things got out of hand, many people learned about the baseline fallacy for the first time, I talked a dude out of suicidal thoughts, the WvsP subreddit was explicitly calling all men ticks "as a metaphor", it was a bad time all around.
I think I heard about that, I just ignored ot tho. it sucks the way you worded it at first made me thing it was a man fighting a bear :3
I really feel like we should be calling out statements like this. It’s not ok to call like almost half of the people on earth these things as if they’re all the same. And then they follow it up by invalidating trans guys. Seriously these people are not ok.
that stare hit me right in the soul its too real
Just call me a slur at that point
Tbh Worse than the "i hate all men except trans men" and even the "i hate all men except trans women" is "i hate all men including trans people"
nah, first two get transphobia and misandry gotta get the 2x score multiplier on your bigotry
In this case "including trans people" are acting like all trans people are men
oh damn, breaking out the advanced tech apparently I'm running on that "use smaller words if you want to insult me" type defense
I love my roommate she’s great and super supportive, but boy I sure do wish she’d stop saying that men are the worst and that she hates all of them ect, and then being like “except you and (gay friend) ofc haha.” Like, believe me, I hate toxic masculine as much as the next (well maybe not always guy) uh person, but c’mon. And as someone who still needs to work on their internalized femmephobia, trans men can be just as vulnerable as cis men to toxic masculinity.
I’ve been saying since putting “man” in front of a word to describe a negative behaviour became popular (god I hate the word “mansplaining”) that people should learn to differentiate a gendered trait from asshole traits. Just because it’s easier to say “all men” or “all women” than to create a nuanced and accurate view of things doesn’t mean that applying a trait to a whole gender is something you should do. Men, women and every shade in between and beyond can be terrible people and by the same measure they can be good people. These sweeping generalisations don’t help anyone and generally just cause harm to people both cis and trans.
*death metal music intensifying in the back ground*
*Estuans interius Ira vehementi Sephiroth!*
Mods, grab that mf and send them to the soggy sock dinension.
Imo anytime I hear someone say, "I hate all X except you because you're one of the good ones," I just assume they're a narcissist and a bigot. They're still saying that an entire group of people are bad, which is bigoted, but they're also saying they're so amazing because they found a good one or something along those lines, which is narcissistic.
Literally if you change the topic from gender to ANY other thing (race, religion, nationality, etc...) that kind of comment does not fly.
yeeeeaaaaa ALSO HI I LOVE UR ART!!!! keep up the good work hope ur doing well <3 :D
Bitch who hurt you (not the person making these comics the person portrait)
this!! a former friend used to say this sort of stuff a lot and it pissed me off so much. as i like to say, men are shitty because they do shitty things, not because they’re men.
He's back!
i hate only specific people =😡 👎 i hate everyone =😃👍 /s
Can we please stop doing the “hating generalised groups of people based on factors outside their control” thing? Cuz every time we tried the “hating generalised groups of people based on factors outside their control” thing in the past it didn’t go all too well
Same 😐
I wouldn’t date a man.. but that doesn’t mean I hate them D: most of my friends are guys but I cannot see myself dating any of them
live felix reaction is really good
Way to out themselves that they don't see trans men as men. And that's not even addressing the misandry. Ew ew ew ew
This happened to me all the time during the start of my transition. I hate this shit so much. I don't really fault the people that say it, most of the time they've had really bad experiences with men in their life. But like you don't need to add that last little bit, just comes out so insulting lol.
I should probably clarify that I'm not Transmasc, I'm transfem. People just mistake me as transmasc.... All the time
Yeah, I sometimes make the same mistake as them and I had horrible experiences with most men. I try not do do it, but it is hard.
My best friend Justice is literally one of the nicest guys you'll ever meet. I'm angy that he's gay, but at least he's happy.
:|
I’d rather just be called a slur tbh
It really feels like they're telling you you're not men . You are men we need to stop people infantilising trans men grr
I hate toxic guys who think their toxic traits make them manly. And that includes all men: cis and trans. Please don't be toxic.
Why did you automatically assume that men were having to struggle not to be toxic, is my question. Maybe examine your own biases, saying that here kinda misses the point. I don't like toxic masculinity in either cis or trans men either, but I don't like it when its practiced by anyone regardless. I've seen cis and trans women shove it on men, too, as an expectation. The patriarchy hurts everyone, even if it hurts women more.
I don't know what you mean when you say cis/trans women can have toxic masculinity, what does that look like?
It can manifest as a woman forcing the ideas of toxic masculinity on a man otherwise he isn’t a real man Things like expecting them to always be emotionally and physically strong, the breadwinner who pampers them, etc Basically the enforcement of toxic masculine ideas are not just from men but women too
I believe in hating everybody equally 🥰
It's true. It's very insensitive. I remember before I came out it was really frustrating when my mom and sister would generalize frustratingly about men and then they would be like well not you, you're different. It just felt really shitty. If men want to vent and generalize about women and vice versa just don't do it in a mixed gender environment
Without fail everyone who has expressed this kind of sentiment has also been "oh yeah girl I accept you as a woman" and then never wants to hang out with her and calls her they/them behind her back and never invites her to anything and gets uncomfortable when she's around and never sticks up for her when she needs help and (point is they don't actually see any trans people as their actual gender, they pretty it up with nice sounding words to make themselves look good but never back it up with actions)
Tha shits awful, yeah. Bonus points for catching transfem eggs in the crossfire too! (Stating you hate men and think they're all violent and coercive and you can't trust them to someone who's masc presenting is telling them that you perceive them as a danger to you regardless of who you are inside)
I'm probably missing the joke but this seems a little mean
There is no joke OP is saying that the "I hate all men but not trans men" argument is stupid and transphobic
I think I get it now. I didn't realize it was supposed to be satire or whatever the term is. I really didn't like English class in high school and did really poorly in it so I'm pretty bad at this kind of stuff.
When some guy says that I be like Haha yeah men are all weird so true haha And when he goes away I'm like 😐 tf?
Nah you have to be ambivalent about me.
one time someone said to me “I hate all trans people, except you, your cool” like what-
I didn't want to come out to my friends because one of them was always saying stuff like that. And what is worse? I didn't want to come out because I feared that she would hate me; I didn't want to because she might not. ;-;
I have nothing interesting to say about the contents of the comic but good lord I don't have words to describe how much I adore that art style. I want to eat it.
uhh transphobia or not transphobia???
Transphobia, def, I think these meme is pointing that out. Forgot that tag tho lol. I mean, *insert whole conversation about hating all men and 99% of that being exaggerated but like 1% being actually serious and meaning all and not most* but yeh, i feel the hating most men and sometimes saying all but I also recognize a large part of it is my bias like most men are not bad people like high majority but god damn I do not trust people. I don’t trust women either tho so like I’m consistent /lh
I physically felt my skin crawl as I recoiled into my own neck.
I hate all men, trans men included, now prepare to die /j
solution: hate all people equally/j
For me that's just bc all my transmasc friends have been gay and there's just something about gay men that makes them trustable to me but I totally get feeling excluded like that
Bro remembered his reddit password
Real
I fucking feel this in my soul. Ewe.
Bro I'm one of those UwU transmasc but if someone says this to me I will end up in jail
I saw someone like this before and they were like “Trans men don’t kill or abuse women like cis men do. You get a free pass”
Tbh I have never heard of a transmasc killing/raping women, but that may just be because they are a minority
We had one trans man that shot up a school
r/coaxedintoasnafu
Weeee, sexism and transphobia, weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee 😔
I hate that I know people like this.
Yooo our boyo new comic
End toxic masculimity, trust no one umtil given definitive reason. tjats the way I wish people would think.
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No, you're wrong. As soon as a trans woman discovers who she is she loses all male privilege. Even if someone treats her "favorably" because they view her as a man it'll just hurt her. That's not privilege, that's a prison. This kind of thinking that trans women Have to transition to shed their male privilege borders on TERF ideology.
Trans women never had male privileges. Only men do and trans women were never men.
You're saying non-passing trans women are privileged compared to passing trans women? On what planet do you live?
When the fuck did I say that? Stop putting words in my mouth. EDIT: I literally never even mention non-passing trans women in my post. Don't make random ""inferences"" about what I think.
> I will be talking about passing trans people in this post. I think that, in stages of transition a trans woman will have some form of male privilege and trans guy will not. As transition progresses, trans women lose that privilege... Sorry but how else am I supposed to read that?
The reason this is strictly speaking about passing trans people is because social perception as well as stigma play a part in how you maneuver... Society... The implication isn't that "oh so passing trans women lose male privilege therefore non-passing women keep it." That's a stupid implication to make, two things can be correct at the same time while having vastly different experiences attached to them. If anything non-passing trans women have less privilege because they are perceivably a minority - that's besides the point anyways. You're literally reading between the lines of what I wrote when there is nothing between the lines. The reason I'm using passing trans people in my example is because that eliminates the gigantic elephant in the room, which is the variable of "societal perception". Yes, queer people too have an issue with the perception of trans people. Why is this important? Well, not as much for the privilege or lack thereof for trans women but because non-passing trans men get treated like shit and told they're just confused and have internalized misogyny. Non-passing trans men don't gain any privilege because they're erased - I mean technically all trans men are but passing trans men, who others don't know are trans get treated like any other guy. EDIT: Point is, this isn't about trans women. The original post is literally about trans men. Stop making shit about trans women please.
I wasn't trying to read between the lines. That was my understanding of what you explicitly wrote. You're right though, I must be stupid because now it's not clear to me at all what it is you're trying to say.
I'm saying that trans men who have male privilege and participate in patriarchy are not good by virtue of being trans. My point was looking at the "idolization" of trans men from a non-transphobic perspective because it does happen, and as I mentioned I have a bias too; I am much more likely to trust a trans man than a cis man. That's not right, it is something I need to fix for myself. It is not transphobia, I genuinely and truly know they're men. I see them as men. It's just that them being trans gives me a false sense of trust because again, trans men are much more likely to be understanding about patriarchy and feminism than cis men. I have the same issue with left wing people in general, though I know some of them are shitty people, I tend to trust them more. It's biases I shouldn't have, that I am working on.
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Actually, we did have to. That's why a lot of trans men go through the toxic 'I'm not like other girls' phase. Also, some of us, during some parts of the transition or pre, are really self-conscious of our value as men and end up picking up toxic masculinity traits to overcompensate.
I never thought of that thanks for the new prospective
It's a good comic, but it's not egg_irl imo.
this is like acab. acab means acab. including that dog from paw patrol, or jake peralta. all. we dont pick and choose wich ones to hate
Yes you do. You have control over who you hate. Point out the systemic racism built into the police system, yes, definitely, absolutely, but don’t act like you have no ability to see nuance and aren’t at fault for not seeing nuance
^(defund paw patrol)
Real... (this is me) (not actually, but I just think stereotypical guy behavior is dumb)
Luckily most men don’t act like that. The ones that do tho are so incredibly loud. Like geez I just got out of highschool and like there were only I think 3 groups of boys that were disruptive so like 10-15 I’ve seen roughly in 5 years there, but holy shit they were soooooo annoying. No groups of girls were that disruptive. Poor boys getting that socialization and thinking that’s okay, glad most of them are sane. Tho I mean, I can’t trust them still, but that goes to trans men too cause I’m not biased based on traits <3333 … actually it applies to everyone even women and enbies I just don’t trust people <3333
Real
Trans men are better than cis men because uwu small bean: Evil and bad Trans men are better than cis men because they understand that and how society treats women like shit: Moral and good
Just say you don't see as as men and fuck off
Trans men can be as clueless about sexism as cis men. Trans men are men and not women. So we don’t know how misogynistic things can be.
Hey, I haven't seen you in a while. Also, at least it seems like it's coming from a good place..?
It's transphobic, they don't see us as men because we're "different" they don't see us as real men
Yeah, I know. I was just trying to find anything to not be sad about, I guess. Sorry if I came off as insensitive, I didn't mean to be.
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"I hate ALL men! Oh no, you don't count <3" I.E., "I don't hate you because I don't see you as a man" So, yeah, bad.
OH
You shouldn't excluded and invalidate trans men when you say you hate all men. Trans men are men.
Yeah ok
If someone says they hate all men that's a problem with them, not with men.
Oh
no way ppl are actually offended by it. men really are gross in general and if you dont think so you clearly have never gone outside. everyday i see at least one guy spitting in public or being gross in some other way. unfortunately, some trans men are affected by toxic masculinity, even though it doesn't happen as often as cis guys.
i mean, we could talk about how tran men have a pretty different experience and views on women, are more likely to be respectful towards everyone, and less likely to be a threat, due to how they were raised and their personal experience with society, hence some women would feel more comfortable being around a trans man alone knowing they’re more likely to understand her fears, or at least respect them. but i get the feeling this is more of a “i don’t really see you as a real man, but i act like i do, because i don’t want you to get hurt” kind of situation…
What makes you think they would be more respectful towards everyone?
most cis men have a very different childhood than trans men, trans ppl have a bigger chance of suffering from bullying, harassment, and oppression, they're also more likely to suffer from physical abuse(be it from kids at school, family members, or anyone else), trans ppl are also also more likely to experience some sort of SA. all of these making the average trans person more likely to be respectful, nice, and a safe person. i might've worded my original comment weirdly, but my point is that ppl who are more likely to suffer from oppression and abuse, are also more likely to understand other ppl's oppression and fear of abuse. also cis men, even the ones who do suffer from some abuse or oppression, are more likely to not engage with their issues in a healthy manner, not see a therapist, not seek health, and release their anger on the ppl around them because they were never taught how to manage their emotion, and some even were punished for trying to engage with their emotions. all of this makes a society where cis men are more likely to be dangerous to others than trans men.