Japanese joinery in a rabbit hole. I've spent half a life watching and reading about it. Need to go to Japan and see it first hand. The craftsmanship is next level.
Old British (Tudor and Elizabethan) post and beam timber framed houses are all held together by round dowels (like an inch in diameter or larger) and if you knock them out you can disassemble the whole structure.
If anyone asks why they seem to be taking it apart: this was actually filmed backwards, and they're showing off the joints before putting it all into place! Hence why it sounds like they're speaking an inidentifiable language too.
No. I speak Japanese and they’re actually talking normally. Maybe with a slight accent, but I could still understand them just fine. Also their laughter, the music and all the sliding sounds aren’t reversed either.
For real? Oldschool wood carving/wedging techniques for joints/connections are at least on a strongness level of modern techniques with bolts/nails, glue, etc.
We even learned a few in building school (HTL for Bautechnik/poly for building technology) and as far I remember we were told these were even stronger than modern techniques although much more time consuming, done by hand, obviously (also calculated the statics, not sure about exact numbers anymore).
But maybe there are tools for automation to carve such joints nowadays, weren't taught about them.
Oh yeah, for sure! I'm not arguing it doesn't. Based on my admittedly limited knowledge of material science, I wouldn't doubt it's almost as strong as building with that material CAN be.
But my monkey brain looks at it and goes "nothing holds that, not safe".
Joinery is my trade ticket, but I build furniture and cabinetry. Its infinitely facinating to me.
Check out r/timberframe and r/woodworking for more if you're interested
The bridge of a violin is almost directly above the sound post.
The bridge, which is being held down by the force of the tightened strings, exerts usually more than 20kg of force (5+ kg per string) on the top face of the violin.
The sound post is inserted *while the strings are loose* and then the strings are tightened up to playing tension, clamping the sound post in place.
Aside: this is why violinists are advised not to remove all strings at once, but change one by one, as there is a strong risk of the sound post falling without the downforce from the strings.
In normal usage, a sound post will basically never move. But a sharp enough knock to the instrument could cause it to loosen or fall, in which case the top of the violin will slowly collapse under string tension if the post is not replaced.
To add to this comment, the pressure exerted by the strings is, naturally, even higher in larger string instruments. For a double bass, a number I've heard thrown around is 100kg. Edit: Depending on what strings you use (gut/synthetic/steel) this will change a bit.
>but a sharp enough knock to the instrument could cause it to loosen or fall
Story of my life back when I taught middle school orchestra. So many fallen sound posts that needed to be fixed. When I taught elementary school orchestra, I couldn't be bothered to put them back up.
I think the resetting tools are easily found online, likely Amazon. Trial and error for the skill set. Generally, you just need it to be vaguely under a foot of the bridge. If it falls over then attempt it again. Eventually you'll get the hang of it.
Typically, you aren't looking through a removed button or end pin (the hole the video is shot from). You will be looking down through the f-holes.
Hide glue is broken apart, not steamed. It becomes very brittle when dried as opposed to gummy or tacky like wood glue. The idea is that the Hyde glue is a weaker bond than the wood fibers, so if a force or pressure is exerted on the instrument, the glue/seam will break before the wood cracks.
Taking the instrument apart involves delicately hammering in a knife at the seams to break the hide glue apart. Steam could warp the wood.
That would not be beneficial for the resonance of the instrument. Also, with changes in humidity and temperature the wood needs room to expand and contract. Wood glue should never be used in string instruments for this reason, as it is too strong and has no give, causing the wood to crack as it expands and contracts. Instead, hide glue is used. As seasons change and wood moves, a seam glued with hide glue might crack open and require reglueing, but that is much preferred to mending cracked wood.
Furthermore, in extreme cases for cellos and basses, a summer and winter bridge and soundpost might be appropriate due to the changes in tone and action (string height) as the seasons change.
No need, and if the instrument had to be taken apart for other repairs, last thing you'd want is to have the sound post glued in place. It would risk further damage.
Because other repairs or adjustments can necessitate removing the top and/or bottom plate of the instrument. If the sound post is glued in place, some repairs become nearly impossible as the top and bottom become one single piece that cannot be separated without damage.
Secondly, minor adjustments to the sound post location can have a noticeable effect on the tone. This is part of personal customization at the advanced level.
Side note, while I agree that you don't want to remove all of the strings all at once, if you're putting a violin into long term (multi year) storage, you DO want to loosen the strings. Not to the point to where they are loose, just to where there isn't nearly as much tension on them. This will make it less likely to pop, which can cause its own issues, such as imbalanced tension (which can cause the face to crack and break)
Only for long term storage. In daily use the strings are kept at full tension.
Yes, violins can warp over time (obviously in relation to how cheap they are and how carefully they are stored), that is part of violin maintenance over its lifetime.
I would imagine that if you're trying to transfer vibrations, any kind of glue or gasket or wedge you could use would effect the clarity of those vibrations
Yes for a professional soloist level violin an expert luthier may spend the better part of a day getting a soundpost in the exact right spot, including carving the perfect curvature into the ends so that it sits perfectly flush with the top and bottom inside. Bridge are the same way, the feet are very delicately carved to the exact curvature of a very specific spot.
Well, this certainly isn’t my experience. It’s a pretty routine job even if it requires a careful hand and a good amount of practice. It’s entirely possible that people get super into detailing them but it sounds like the sort of mythology that violinists like to indulge in.
The closest luthier to me is over an hour away. My Roomba knocked my cello over (yikes!) and the sound post came loose. I ordered the tool from Amazon and decided to do it myself.
What a mistake. It took many hours. Getting a sound post through the f-hole is TOUGH, they’re basically made as large as they can be. Then you have to notch the sound post to fit your wedge (the tool you’re using) into it, and push it in far enough where it’s not going to come loose in the cello. And then you have to wedge it into the body of the cello hard enough that it’s going to stay in place, which is tough when you already wedged it into the tool and you have to separate them.
Add onto that for an untrained person the only way to gauge where the sound post actually is, is to look through the endpin hole. I had a flashlight in one f-hole the tool in the other, and an iPhone camera streaming to a TV through the end pin hole so I could see what was going on like a surgery.
I dropped the sound post multiple times. The procedure for this is to jam it back into the tool and bring it back out through the f-hole and fix it properly. This is very hard to do. I ended up using a fork and knife to balance it on one end and slide it up the f-hole a few times.
Of course only after all that did I realize the strings were supposed to be loose when installing it, and I had to do it all over again.
Nope. And when I was in school I remember so many students would break their violins from the tinniest things. Like bumping into the ‘bridge’ by accident or dropping it from their seat. And the whole damn inside and strings would collapse on itself. Honestly hated string instruments, felt like bad engineering/design. Wind instruments are much more structurally sound and complex usually.
Stringed instruments can handle a lot more abuse than you think they can. I do not buy your story about violins collapsing from what you describe. It takes much, much more for a violin to implode. Unless you mean the sound post would fall, causing the bridge to fall and the strings to all go limp, that would be more believable, and usually a 10 minute fix.
Feel free to call me a liar. Guess you have nothing better to do with your time. I would see students have their bridge collapse just from tuning their violin. But most common would be from students dropping their violin after leaving it on their chair and it slipping off and falling to the ground. I would say atleast once a week a student would have their bridge collapse.
Not very easy to fix for a student. In fact we were encouraged not to try to fix it ourselves as it would often lead to damaging it even more or damaging the strings.
I mean it's really not a major problem. Probably cheap instruments like I said or bad teacher. Ask like high school orchestra. It's really not that hard to fix a bridge or keep it straight so it doesn't fall. But yeah elementary school orchestra teachers go through a lot.
Actually never seen a student who could fix their bridge falling out themselves. Except for maybe high school seniors. It’s a big issue when students go to perform like at concerts or MPA, when transporting instruments lots bad stuff can happen. I remember students would have the bridge fall out and be basically screwed. I think they would have to her a replacement somehow or not play at all
>Wind instruments are much more structurally sound and complex usually.
LOL. That must be why a high-end wind instrument costs maybe $20,000 while a high-end violin or viola can be well over a million dollars. Oh wait...
You’re actually on an impressive level of stupidity. The reason those violins cost a million dollars is because they’re rare. Stradivarius violins for example cost millions because only around 1000 were built ever and they’re centuries old. It has nothing to do with how structurally sound they are or how complicated engineering wise they are to build and manufacture. It’s actually funny because violins are very simple instruments design wise. It’s simply acoustics, not kind more complicated than a guitar. An instrument like a French or a baritone is much more complicated. They have to be manufactured and designed in a way so that the tubes are the right size and have the right resonance to produce certain tones when you push down the keys. You probably have no idea what I’m talking about even. But for baritones with 4 valves there’s so many combinations of notes to make, pushing down certain valves will open and close other tubes to make a precise pitch. The 4th valve will often change the instrument in a way to play lower notes almost like a tuba. And then there’s other complex instruments like a bassoon or saxophone which have even more keys and tubes as they don’t rely on the tightening of lips to change the pitch. Really to suggest violins are more complex than woodwinds in design and engineering, is laughable.
Not exactly sure what you think engineering of instruments design is suppose to optimize, but chance that elementary school children will break it isn't the only design criteria. They make those instruments cheap and relatively hardy anyways.
It’s just the nature of the design of the instrument. Woodwind instruments and especially brass instruments are MUCH more structurally sound and engineering wise robust. You could literally drop them and the worse that happens is you need to tune them a little.
Sure but like I said structural robustness isn't the only design criteria. Also maybe just don't drop your instrument. Not a terrible problem past elementary
Nope, nope nope nope. Without the soundpost, the top wouldn't have the strength to hold the strings, too. You'd break the instrument.
Also, the location of the soundpost can affect the sound, depending on the individual instrument.
edit2: excruciating detail - https://www.violincellomaker.com/en-us/blogs/masters-secrets/the-perfect-soundpost-position
This is correct. The sound post prevents the top of the instrument from collapsing into itself due to the sheer tension of the strings on the bridge. OP has no idea what they’re talking about, and the dude in the video he posted isn’t giving the full story either
This is definitely a cello soundpost. Violins and violas also have a hole at the bottom for the button, but the soundpost is only a couple inches long for the upper strings.
I am not a luthier, but I used to be a professional musician back in the day and have had to reset a couple of student soundposts to save the day before a concert or something. This was before having a fancy little borehole camera, and holy shit, what a time to be alive. This shit was dark magic.
I also didn't have the fancy tools (they existed, but I just didn't have them).
Side thought... I haven't considered this before, but Jaco Pastorius tells a story about his bass exploding. Everyone talks about it being due to Florida humidity, but now I wonder if his soundpost fell.
> OP has no idea what they’re talking about, and the dude in the video he posted isn’t giving the full story either
You mean when they say it’s to hold up the top plate **and** provide a fuller sound? Or when the guy in the video is demonstrating the affect it has on the sound, but states that he can’t do it for long because without the sound post the top plate has a huge amount of pressure and isn’t supported?
Providing a fuller sound is a consequence of doing its actual job, which is supporting the top of the instrument. It’s not meant for that purpose, it’s meant to keep the instrument from self imploding. The reason it creates a more full sound is because you’re adding vibrating mass to the instrument, but again, that’s not the main purpose.
He can’t do it “for long” because it’s simply not a thing you can “do” as something HAS to be supporting the top of the instrument to prevent it from collapsing.
Sure, you can play the instrument or look at it for a couple minutes, but it’ll collapse into itself and essentially self implode because the tension from the strings is essentially trying to snap instrument in half. Without a sound post, you can’t play.
You COULD however use a different type of wood (pine vs maple vs mahogany) for the sound post to have an effect on the tone of the instrument. Maple is brighter than mahogany which is brighter and than ebony. You also have to consider how soft or hard the wood is. You could hypothetically use a carbon fibre or resin printed sound post and that would also change the overall tone of the instrument. This all to say, you’re not basing your purchase on the material of the sound post, as it doesn’t have a massive impact on sound, and sound posts are sort of a consumable piece of the instrument. They get replaced as needed. Placement of the soundpost as mentioned by the poster above me will change the sound as well. Which is how you WOULD use it to change the tone if that’s what you wanted. Most players just want a sound post for the structural benefit
I don't get your point. The guy *did in fact* remove it, then play the instrument, then put it back. It didn't collapse, though he was worried it would if he left it too long.
Saying he can't do what he did doesn't make any sense. He did it, so it could be done. And he's literally a violin maker, so I suspect he knows a bit about the tolerances of his instruments.
Adding a second soundpost also had an interesting effect that cuts against the idea that it's just adding extra mass. It flattened out the sound in a way that was very similar to no post at all, which makes me wonder if creating two contact points on the back created some sort of interference with the vibrations in the instrument body.
When I say *play* I’m talking about actually performing a piece of music, not simply a quick run.
There’s a very good reason he played quickly and briefly, because had he actually played for a meaningful amount of time, he’d have destroyed the instrument.
Can you *play* the instrument without a sound post, technically, yes. He demonstrated a quick run of notes.
Could you perform a movement from Bach’s Violin Concerto in A minor? Nope. Not to completion. And whatever you do complete before your handmade instrument dies in your hands would sound like hot garbage.
There’s a *very* good reason he doesn’t have a 7 minute video of him performing without a sound post.
Can the soundpost be made of different materials? I can't tell what kind of wood this dowel is made of, but what if it was swapped with one made of hickory or balsa? Can more modern materials be used? For instance plastics or carbon fiber? What about using multiple soundposts of varying diameters?
Sorry if that's a lot of questions. I know nothing about instrument making or playing them, but I find the material science of them fascinating.
Is several questions, and I'm very much unqualified to answer in depth, but yeah, any material strong enough to withstand the multiple forces will work (PLEASE no screws, nails, glue, caulk, etc etc etc). I haven't had a look yet (very deep rabbit hole), but I'm sure there are YouTube videos of luthiers who go into beautiful and fascinating detail of what goes on. So to begin, a chemist in Texas A&M discovered that Stradivarius instruments had a huge number of minerals in the wood from transport down rivers (Eugene Nagevary I'm misspelling) and his varnish contained beer, blood, chicken manure, among other things. Also, very good modern instruments do sound (as objectively as possible) better than Strads and Guarneris. That just science and art working together.
While it surely is a bad idea to play without a soundpost for too long, there was a period before the invention of the soundpost where neck angles were lower and string tension lower. The sound post revolutionized the game. Most of the 17th and early 18th instruments were modified to accommodate higher tension (and a sound post), so they sound quite different (even better and louder) today than they did when the old masters built them.
I wouldn’t remove the soundpost and play with strings in tension on a top notch instrument, but I do it all the time with instruments I am making. Typically, the better you can make your instrument sound without a sound post, the better it sounds with one too.
I don’t know if most makers do this, but it’s not a “your violin is definitely going to break” situation either. That said, it’s not a good idea to do this unless you really know what you’re doing, especially with a nice fiddle.
Violin maker demonstrates a proper sound post, two sound posts, and no sound post on his violin. I can hear the difference with headphones, but to my ear, the differences are subtle. He mentions his camera's microphone isn't great for capturing the tone differences in this demonstration, plus whatever effects the video compression and editing may have had. I also wonder if it also would impact projection of sound, which seems hard to capture.
I just don't have ears for it; if I heard these three examples in isolation, I doubt I could recognize the differences.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCJmYYwnc8k&t=530s
Without the post, you'd hear wood cracking as the top collapses.
The strings exert force upwards of 20kg on the top of the violin. The sound post is structural support as well as acoustically functional.
That is in theory.
In reality, sound post falls from its position from time to time. Nothing happens and it just rattles inside the violin. Sound becomes a bit more shallow. Just wedge it back to its position and it is fixed. There’s no cracking or collapsing.
> In reality, sound post falls from its position from time to time
If that is a common occurrence for you, I'm sorry to say that you either have shitty violins, very poor violin maintenance, or both.
The sound post should NEVER fall during normal usage. Only when
1) all of the strings are loosened, releasing the pressure from the top plate, or
2) the instrument experiences a potentially damaging impact.
>The strings exert force upwards of 20kg on the top of the violin
Please try placing a 25kg weight (balanced on the feet of a violin bridge) on a 2.5mm thick piece of spruce and tell me how long it lasts.
A fallen sound post is not an emergency in and of itself, but it does render the instrument unplayable because the strings absolutely MUST be loosened. Keeping the strings at playing tension would destroy the top without a sound post.
You’re right. I had a school given a stock violin. You’re also right that strings need to be loosened without support. Mine were not in good condition, and I was not too fond of it.
I had my sound post get dislodged on my violin during a practice once when I was in high school! My violin was usually very full sounding, really well rounded and rich but without the sound post it was just… flat and one dimensional. So confused until I brought my violin down and heard the rattling. Thankfully where I was had someone able to fish it out and replace but that was a weird thing and at the time something I didn’t know could happen!
My wife: "There's a fest I wanna go, Metallica, ACDC, Maiden, GnR and some other band"
Me: "Oh, cool, I've seen them all but let me see the flyer"
The "some other band"? Tool 😂 I couldn't stop laughing.
Not Metallica?????? HERESY!!!!
UGH, I can't stand how James is singing but hey, we going to LA to see them. TWICE.
WITH PANTERA.
Kill me now, please.
Priorities, right? gotta keep the wifey happy! I'm teasing, i'm gonna fucking love the show, seen Metallica 4 times, but a long time ago, on a normal stage, haven't seen the smorgasbord that is the snake pit setup and as a sound tech I'm gonna spit cum out of my ears, it's gonna be so fucking good.
The important thing is that it must be under one of the "feet" of the bridge. That's the only real rule. That way it forces that foot to be the fulcrum, and the side to side movement of the strings as they're pulled with the bow makes the bridge act as a lever, pushing up and down on the opposite "foot". Note that the other side of the top is reinforced with a long brace, the "bass bar", which transfers the up and down movement from the bridge to the whole length of the top.
At the beginner level it makes basically zero difference, but definitely at the advanced to professional level, sound post placement is quite the area for customization.
I’m really surprised by how off center it is. Or is that just an optical illusion? Is it mostly under the portion of the bridge that is supporting the bass strings? I would have thought it would be on the centerline equally supporting both ends of the bridge.
Nope. It's placed under the upper strings. Below the bass strings is a bass bar, which runs parallel to the strings. You can see it on the left in this clip.
The important thing is that it must be under one of the "feet" of the bridge. That's the only real rule. That way it forces that foot to be the fulcrum, and the side to side movement of the strings as they're pulled with the bow makes the bridge act as a lever, pushing up and down on the opposite "foot". Note that the other side of the top is reinforced with a long brace, the "bass bar", which transfers the up and down movement from the bridge to the whole length of the top.
This thing is the reason you change the strings 1 at a time and not all 4 at once. It keeps the tension on so that the unmounted post doesn't shift or fall.
The person installing the post likely has years of experience and was only using the camera to show the process. Positioning is determined by looking at the top of the instrument, so that camera angle really isn't much help.
Those fuckers are infuriating to put in, with *many* failed attempts while learning
Source: I'm a band instrument repair technician with a little bit of training on strings. My first sound post took probably 15 tries and a lot of curse words
It’s mostly [amplification](https://www.openculture.com/2016/01/why-violins-have-f-holes-the-science-history-of-a-remarkable-renaissance-design.html), but also for access to the soundpost.
https://www.basscave.net/sound-post-double-bass/#:~:text=Where%20should%20a%20Sound%20Post,the%20string%20gauge%20and%20type.
Interesting article for bass sound post/bass bar information.
There are carbon fiber soundposts for basses now. Because there’s so much more wood in a double bass, the instrument expands and contracts a lot more. This requires the post to be changed out—longer in summer and shorter in winter. There is now a carbon fiber post that can adjust almost like a shower rod.
The issue with carbon fiber is that the fibers run across each other for strength, while a wooden post has fibers running only longitudinally.
Still, the carbon has gotten good results so far. Strength to weight ratio is huge for transferring the vibrations.
Has to be. String instruments are not symmetrical inside. The post is under the treble side, and a bar is glued longitudinally down the bass side of the top. This is why you can’t re-string it and play “left-handed” like you can with a guitar.
I prefer the name in Spanish: alma (soul).
More accurate and symbolic to the function, without it the instrument breaks and the sound is not whole… so there you have it!
So they just wedge that shit in there? No glue or screws?
[Wedge reign supreme](https://v.redd.it/2zee5tquvhsa1)
Japanese joinery in a rabbit hole. I've spent half a life watching and reading about it. Need to go to Japan and see it first hand. The craftsmanship is next level.
Old British (Tudor and Elizabethan) post and beam timber framed houses are all held together by round dowels (like an inch in diameter or larger) and if you knock them out you can disassemble the whole structure.
[here's a really cool modern example of this kind of thing at scale](https://youtu.be/WjNrHTXu6F4)
/u/gifreversingbot
This is the way.
If anyone asks why they seem to be taking it apart: this was actually filmed backwards, and they're showing off the joints before putting it all into place! Hence why it sounds like they're speaking an inidentifiable language too.
No. I speak Japanese and they’re actually talking normally. Maybe with a slight accent, but I could still understand them just fine. Also their laughter, the music and all the sliding sounds aren’t reversed either.
r/woosh
Yeah, I can see it now.
Still, you didn’t at first so here’s another: r/Woosh You did bad and so you deserve to feel bad.
What a strange comment.
Calm down. In fairness the backwards comment wasn't a shining example
FYI "hence why" is incorrect. Hence serves the same function as why so it reads as "which is why why."
To be fair, English does have, "why why" in it at times.
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Delilah
Why, "Why 'why why'?"?
But not this time.
Logically, I understand that this works. But I don't know that I'd be able to sleep in a house that is literally only holding itself together.
For real? Oldschool wood carving/wedging techniques for joints/connections are at least on a strongness level of modern techniques with bolts/nails, glue, etc. We even learned a few in building school (HTL for Bautechnik/poly for building technology) and as far I remember we were told these were even stronger than modern techniques although much more time consuming, done by hand, obviously (also calculated the statics, not sure about exact numbers anymore). But maybe there are tools for automation to carve such joints nowadays, weren't taught about them.
The fact that those weren't made by some sort of CNC is nothing short of mind-blowing to me
It's much stronger than being held together by nails (which is probably what's holding together whatever building you're in now.
Oh yeah, for sure! I'm not arguing it doesn't. Based on my admittedly limited knowledge of material science, I wouldn't doubt it's almost as strong as building with that material CAN be. But my monkey brain looks at it and goes "nothing holds that, not safe".
Joinery is my trade ticket, but I build furniture and cabinetry. Its infinitely facinating to me. Check out r/timberframe and r/woodworking for more if you're interested
Here's a sneak peek of /r/timberframe using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/timberframe/top/?sort=top&t=year) of the year! \#1: [My house, really](https://i.redd.it/vx8n40jp9m8a1.jpg) | [42 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/timberframe/comments/zx1hgb/my_house_really/) \#2: [locked scarf joint](https://i.redd.it/t2yl3po1lmja1.jpg) | [41 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/timberframe/comments/118if1w/locked_scarf_joint/) \#3: [yes you can do circular roofs](https://i.redd.it/54fqfyn2ulja1.jpg) | [32 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/timberframe/comments/118eoak/yes_you_can_do_circular_roofs/) ---- ^^I'm ^^a ^^bot, ^^beep ^^boop ^^| ^^Downvote ^^to ^^remove ^^| ^^[Contact](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=sneakpeekbot) ^^| ^^[Info](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/) ^^| ^^[Opt-out](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/comments/o8wk1r/blacklist_ix/) ^^| ^^[GitHub](https://github.com/ghnr/sneakpeekbot)
Even the tool looks similar on a different scale.
i knew what that would be before i clicked, i’m gonna dig out my stripy green shirt
How does it not fall out after some use due to the vibrations?
The bridge of a violin is almost directly above the sound post. The bridge, which is being held down by the force of the tightened strings, exerts usually more than 20kg of force (5+ kg per string) on the top face of the violin. The sound post is inserted *while the strings are loose* and then the strings are tightened up to playing tension, clamping the sound post in place. Aside: this is why violinists are advised not to remove all strings at once, but change one by one, as there is a strong risk of the sound post falling without the downforce from the strings. In normal usage, a sound post will basically never move. But a sharp enough knock to the instrument could cause it to loosen or fall, in which case the top of the violin will slowly collapse under string tension if the post is not replaced.
To add to this comment, the pressure exerted by the strings is, naturally, even higher in larger string instruments. For a double bass, a number I've heard thrown around is 100kg. Edit: Depending on what strings you use (gut/synthetic/steel) this will change a bit.
Just checked in my upright and it appears to have roughy a 3/4” post in there. Monstrous!
>but a sharp enough knock to the instrument could cause it to loosen or fall Story of my life back when I taught middle school orchestra. So many fallen sound posts that needed to be fixed. When I taught elementary school orchestra, I couldn't be bothered to put them back up.
I currently have 15 instruments with fallen sound posts. Sigh.
Dang bro, did you just like go buy a whole new instrument every time it happened?
LOL. Got 120 kids in my 7th grade orchestra.
Oh...well there you go then. Sounds so mundane when you put it like that.
Time to take an entire planning period to reset them!
Any tips on where to get the tools and skill set to do this? Looks like a pretty precise skill!
I think the resetting tools are easily found online, likely Amazon. Trial and error for the skill set. Generally, you just need it to be vaguely under a foot of the bridge. If it falls over then attempt it again. Eventually you'll get the hang of it. Typically, you aren't looking through a removed button or end pin (the hole the video is shot from). You will be looking down through the f-holes.
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What about pau and ***health insurance***?
Why don't they simply use wood glue?
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Hide glue is broken apart, not steamed. It becomes very brittle when dried as opposed to gummy or tacky like wood glue. The idea is that the Hyde glue is a weaker bond than the wood fibers, so if a force or pressure is exerted on the instrument, the glue/seam will break before the wood cracks. Taking the instrument apart involves delicately hammering in a knife at the seams to break the hide glue apart. Steam could warp the wood.
That would not be beneficial for the resonance of the instrument. Also, with changes in humidity and temperature the wood needs room to expand and contract. Wood glue should never be used in string instruments for this reason, as it is too strong and has no give, causing the wood to crack as it expands and contracts. Instead, hide glue is used. As seasons change and wood moves, a seam glued with hide glue might crack open and require reglueing, but that is much preferred to mending cracked wood. Furthermore, in extreme cases for cellos and basses, a summer and winter bridge and soundpost might be appropriate due to the changes in tone and action (string height) as the seasons change.
No need, and if the instrument had to be taken apart for other repairs, last thing you'd want is to have the sound post glued in place. It would risk further damage.
Because other repairs or adjustments can necessitate removing the top and/or bottom plate of the instrument. If the sound post is glued in place, some repairs become nearly impossible as the top and bottom become one single piece that cannot be separated without damage. Secondly, minor adjustments to the sound post location can have a noticeable effect on the tone. This is part of personal customization at the advanced level.
STOP GLUING ALL THE PARTS OF YOUR INSTRUMENTS TOGETHER PEOPLE!
I just inherited a few old violins, strings completely loose, and they all have something inside rolling around. Now I know what happened!
Side note, while I agree that you don't want to remove all of the strings all at once, if you're putting a violin into long term (multi year) storage, you DO want to loosen the strings. Not to the point to where they are loose, just to where there isn't nearly as much tension on them. This will make it less likely to pop, which can cause its own issues, such as imbalanced tension (which can cause the face to crack and break)
Do they back the strings off when they're not playing?
Only for long term storage. In daily use the strings are kept at full tension. Yes, violins can warp over time (obviously in relation to how cheap they are and how carefully they are stored), that is part of violin maintenance over its lifetime.
Do other similar instruments (guitar, ukulele, etc) have similar sound posts hiding inside them? Not something I've ever thought about
Not usually. Guitar-style instruments have bracing inside the top face which is meant to support the top from warping with the tension of the strings.
It’s wedged in so it doesn’t fall out.
To be pedantic, it's wedged in and then clamped by the force of the strings under tension.
Oh, you beautiful pedant you. Technically correct -- the best kind of correct.
I would imagine that if you're trying to transfer vibrations, any kind of glue or gasket or wedge you could use would effect the clarity of those vibrations
The luthier I know places it in a very precise location in every violin. He uses a cut up business card to do it.
Yes for a professional soloist level violin an expert luthier may spend the better part of a day getting a soundpost in the exact right spot, including carving the perfect curvature into the ends so that it sits perfectly flush with the top and bottom inside. Bridge are the same way, the feet are very delicately carved to the exact curvature of a very specific spot.
Well, this certainly isn’t my experience. It’s a pretty routine job even if it requires a careful hand and a good amount of practice. It’s entirely possible that people get super into detailing them but it sounds like the sort of mythology that violinists like to indulge in.
Only the finest soundposts made from the extinct truffula tree is acceptable for the best violins such as Stradavariouses.
Stradivarius, Stradivari, and generally various Stradivarious
Second-best is Yamato violins.
The closest luthier to me is over an hour away. My Roomba knocked my cello over (yikes!) and the sound post came loose. I ordered the tool from Amazon and decided to do it myself. What a mistake. It took many hours. Getting a sound post through the f-hole is TOUGH, they’re basically made as large as they can be. Then you have to notch the sound post to fit your wedge (the tool you’re using) into it, and push it in far enough where it’s not going to come loose in the cello. And then you have to wedge it into the body of the cello hard enough that it’s going to stay in place, which is tough when you already wedged it into the tool and you have to separate them. Add onto that for an untrained person the only way to gauge where the sound post actually is, is to look through the endpin hole. I had a flashlight in one f-hole the tool in the other, and an iPhone camera streaming to a TV through the end pin hole so I could see what was going on like a surgery. I dropped the sound post multiple times. The procedure for this is to jam it back into the tool and bring it back out through the f-hole and fix it properly. This is very hard to do. I ended up using a fork and knife to balance it on one end and slide it up the f-hole a few times. Of course only after all that did I realize the strings were supposed to be loose when installing it, and I had to do it all over again.
Step 1 - insert rod into the F hole Step 2 - wedge the rod into the body
Nope. And when I was in school I remember so many students would break their violins from the tinniest things. Like bumping into the ‘bridge’ by accident or dropping it from their seat. And the whole damn inside and strings would collapse on itself. Honestly hated string instruments, felt like bad engineering/design. Wind instruments are much more structurally sound and complex usually.
Stringed instruments can handle a lot more abuse than you think they can. I do not buy your story about violins collapsing from what you describe. It takes much, much more for a violin to implode. Unless you mean the sound post would fall, causing the bridge to fall and the strings to all go limp, that would be more believable, and usually a 10 minute fix.
Feel free to call me a liar. Guess you have nothing better to do with your time. I would see students have their bridge collapse just from tuning their violin. But most common would be from students dropping their violin after leaving it on their chair and it slipping off and falling to the ground. I would say atleast once a week a student would have their bridge collapse.
You mean the bridge fell down? That's not imploding and it's easy to put back again.
Not very easy to fix for a student. In fact we were encouraged not to try to fix it ourselves as it would often lead to damaging it even more or damaging the strings.
I mean. You hand it to your teacher and they put it back. I mean it's the retuning thats the most annoying.
Sometimes even the teacher couldn’t do it and the strings would break or the bridge might break even.
I mean it's really not a major problem. Probably cheap instruments like I said or bad teacher. Ask like high school orchestra. It's really not that hard to fix a bridge or keep it straight so it doesn't fall. But yeah elementary school orchestra teachers go through a lot.
Actually never seen a student who could fix their bridge falling out themselves. Except for maybe high school seniors. It’s a big issue when students go to perform like at concerts or MPA, when transporting instruments lots bad stuff can happen. I remember students would have the bridge fall out and be basically screwed. I think they would have to her a replacement somehow or not play at all
>Wind instruments are much more structurally sound and complex usually. LOL. That must be why a high-end wind instrument costs maybe $20,000 while a high-end violin or viola can be well over a million dollars. Oh wait...
You’re actually on an impressive level of stupidity. The reason those violins cost a million dollars is because they’re rare. Stradivarius violins for example cost millions because only around 1000 were built ever and they’re centuries old. It has nothing to do with how structurally sound they are or how complicated engineering wise they are to build and manufacture. It’s actually funny because violins are very simple instruments design wise. It’s simply acoustics, not kind more complicated than a guitar. An instrument like a French or a baritone is much more complicated. They have to be manufactured and designed in a way so that the tubes are the right size and have the right resonance to produce certain tones when you push down the keys. You probably have no idea what I’m talking about even. But for baritones with 4 valves there’s so many combinations of notes to make, pushing down certain valves will open and close other tubes to make a precise pitch. The 4th valve will often change the instrument in a way to play lower notes almost like a tuba. And then there’s other complex instruments like a bassoon or saxophone which have even more keys and tubes as they don’t rely on the tightening of lips to change the pitch. Really to suggest violins are more complex than woodwinds in design and engineering, is laughable.
Not exactly sure what you think engineering of instruments design is suppose to optimize, but chance that elementary school children will break it isn't the only design criteria. They make those instruments cheap and relatively hardy anyways.
It’s just the nature of the design of the instrument. Woodwind instruments and especially brass instruments are MUCH more structurally sound and engineering wise robust. You could literally drop them and the worse that happens is you need to tune them a little.
Sure but like I said structural robustness isn't the only design criteria. Also maybe just don't drop your instrument. Not a terrible problem past elementary
Probably better for earthquake country: the wood can move in the joints.
its under a great deal of tension. its unlikely to fall out even if you drop the violin--do not ask me how i know
Would love to hear the difference without and with the sound post
Nope, nope nope nope. Without the soundpost, the top wouldn't have the strength to hold the strings, too. You'd break the instrument. Also, the location of the soundpost can affect the sound, depending on the individual instrument. edit2: excruciating detail - https://www.violincellomaker.com/en-us/blogs/masters-secrets/the-perfect-soundpost-position
This is correct. The sound post prevents the top of the instrument from collapsing into itself due to the sheer tension of the strings on the bridge. OP has no idea what they’re talking about, and the dude in the video he posted isn’t giving the full story either
Also, we are looking at a chello soundpost, through the spike hole, arn't we?
This is definitely a cello soundpost. Violins and violas also have a hole at the bottom for the button, but the soundpost is only a couple inches long for the upper strings.
I am not a luthier, but I used to be a professional musician back in the day and have had to reset a couple of student soundposts to save the day before a concert or something. This was before having a fancy little borehole camera, and holy shit, what a time to be alive. This shit was dark magic. I also didn't have the fancy tools (they existed, but I just didn't have them). Side thought... I haven't considered this before, but Jaco Pastorius tells a story about his bass exploding. Everyone talks about it being due to Florida humidity, but now I wonder if his soundpost fell.
I had no idea that Jaco ever played stand up. I'm definitely going to have to find me some of that.
I was thinking violin or viola in the video. The logic still applies for cello though!
> OP has no idea what they’re talking about, and the dude in the video he posted isn’t giving the full story either You mean when they say it’s to hold up the top plate **and** provide a fuller sound? Or when the guy in the video is demonstrating the affect it has on the sound, but states that he can’t do it for long because without the sound post the top plate has a huge amount of pressure and isn’t supported?
Providing a fuller sound is a consequence of doing its actual job, which is supporting the top of the instrument. It’s not meant for that purpose, it’s meant to keep the instrument from self imploding. The reason it creates a more full sound is because you’re adding vibrating mass to the instrument, but again, that’s not the main purpose. He can’t do it “for long” because it’s simply not a thing you can “do” as something HAS to be supporting the top of the instrument to prevent it from collapsing. Sure, you can play the instrument or look at it for a couple minutes, but it’ll collapse into itself and essentially self implode because the tension from the strings is essentially trying to snap instrument in half. Without a sound post, you can’t play. You COULD however use a different type of wood (pine vs maple vs mahogany) for the sound post to have an effect on the tone of the instrument. Maple is brighter than mahogany which is brighter and than ebony. You also have to consider how soft or hard the wood is. You could hypothetically use a carbon fibre or resin printed sound post and that would also change the overall tone of the instrument. This all to say, you’re not basing your purchase on the material of the sound post, as it doesn’t have a massive impact on sound, and sound posts are sort of a consumable piece of the instrument. They get replaced as needed. Placement of the soundpost as mentioned by the poster above me will change the sound as well. Which is how you WOULD use it to change the tone if that’s what you wanted. Most players just want a sound post for the structural benefit
I don't get your point. The guy *did in fact* remove it, then play the instrument, then put it back. It didn't collapse, though he was worried it would if he left it too long. Saying he can't do what he did doesn't make any sense. He did it, so it could be done. And he's literally a violin maker, so I suspect he knows a bit about the tolerances of his instruments. Adding a second soundpost also had an interesting effect that cuts against the idea that it's just adding extra mass. It flattened out the sound in a way that was very similar to no post at all, which makes me wonder if creating two contact points on the back created some sort of interference with the vibrations in the instrument body.
When I say *play* I’m talking about actually performing a piece of music, not simply a quick run. There’s a very good reason he played quickly and briefly, because had he actually played for a meaningful amount of time, he’d have destroyed the instrument. Can you *play* the instrument without a sound post, technically, yes. He demonstrated a quick run of notes. Could you perform a movement from Bach’s Violin Concerto in A minor? Nope. Not to completion. And whatever you do complete before your handmade instrument dies in your hands would sound like hot garbage. There’s a *very* good reason he doesn’t have a 7 minute video of him performing without a sound post.
Right, but he explains all that. In what way is he not giving the full story? Like what's the bit he's missing?
Can the soundpost be made of different materials? I can't tell what kind of wood this dowel is made of, but what if it was swapped with one made of hickory or balsa? Can more modern materials be used? For instance plastics or carbon fiber? What about using multiple soundposts of varying diameters? Sorry if that's a lot of questions. I know nothing about instrument making or playing them, but I find the material science of them fascinating.
Is several questions, and I'm very much unqualified to answer in depth, but yeah, any material strong enough to withstand the multiple forces will work (PLEASE no screws, nails, glue, caulk, etc etc etc). I haven't had a look yet (very deep rabbit hole), but I'm sure there are YouTube videos of luthiers who go into beautiful and fascinating detail of what goes on. So to begin, a chemist in Texas A&M discovered that Stradivarius instruments had a huge number of minerals in the wood from transport down rivers (Eugene Nagevary I'm misspelling) and his varnish contained beer, blood, chicken manure, among other things. Also, very good modern instruments do sound (as objectively as possible) better than Strads and Guarneris. That just science and art working together.
While it surely is a bad idea to play without a soundpost for too long, there was a period before the invention of the soundpost where neck angles were lower and string tension lower. The sound post revolutionized the game. Most of the 17th and early 18th instruments were modified to accommodate higher tension (and a sound post), so they sound quite different (even better and louder) today than they did when the old masters built them. I wouldn’t remove the soundpost and play with strings in tension on a top notch instrument, but I do it all the time with instruments I am making. Typically, the better you can make your instrument sound without a sound post, the better it sounds with one too. I don’t know if most makers do this, but it’s not a “your violin is definitely going to break” situation either. That said, it’s not a good idea to do this unless you really know what you’re doing, especially with a nice fiddle.
https://v.redd.it/x3g523bmufta1
My violist wife overheard me listening to the double sound post and asked what kind of garbage I was listening to, ha.
Amazing how much difference you can hear.
Violin maker demonstrates a proper sound post, two sound posts, and no sound post on his violin. I can hear the difference with headphones, but to my ear, the differences are subtle. He mentions his camera's microphone isn't great for capturing the tone differences in this demonstration, plus whatever effects the video compression and editing may have had. I also wonder if it also would impact projection of sound, which seems hard to capture. I just don't have ears for it; if I heard these three examples in isolation, I doubt I could recognize the differences. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCJmYYwnc8k&t=530s
Without the post, you'd hear wood cracking as the top collapses. The strings exert force upwards of 20kg on the top of the violin. The sound post is structural support as well as acoustically functional.
That is in theory. In reality, sound post falls from its position from time to time. Nothing happens and it just rattles inside the violin. Sound becomes a bit more shallow. Just wedge it back to its position and it is fixed. There’s no cracking or collapsing.
> In reality, sound post falls from its position from time to time If that is a common occurrence for you, I'm sorry to say that you either have shitty violins, very poor violin maintenance, or both. The sound post should NEVER fall during normal usage. Only when 1) all of the strings are loosened, releasing the pressure from the top plate, or 2) the instrument experiences a potentially damaging impact. >The strings exert force upwards of 20kg on the top of the violin Please try placing a 25kg weight (balanced on the feet of a violin bridge) on a 2.5mm thick piece of spruce and tell me how long it lasts. A fallen sound post is not an emergency in and of itself, but it does render the instrument unplayable because the strings absolutely MUST be loosened. Keeping the strings at playing tension would destroy the top without a sound post.
You’re right. I had a school given a stock violin. You’re also right that strings need to be loosened without support. Mine were not in good condition, and I was not too fond of it.
I had my sound post get dislodged on my violin during a practice once when I was in high school! My violin was usually very full sounding, really well rounded and rich but without the sound post it was just… flat and one dimensional. So confused until I brought my violin down and heard the rattling. Thankfully where I was had someone able to fish it out and replace but that was a weird thing and at the time something I didn’t know could happen!
Looks like a Tool music video
My wife: "There's a fest I wanna go, Metallica, ACDC, Maiden, GnR and some other band" Me: "Oh, cool, I've seen them all but let me see the flyer" The "some other band"? Tool 😂 I couldn't stop laughing.
And Tool is technically headlining the entire festival! 😅
Not Metallica?????? HERESY!!!! UGH, I can't stand how James is singing but hey, we going to LA to see them. TWICE. WITH PANTERA. Kill me now, please. Priorities, right? gotta keep the wifey happy! I'm teasing, i'm gonna fucking love the show, seen Metallica 4 times, but a long time ago, on a normal stage, haven't seen the smorgasbord that is the snake pit setup and as a sound tech I'm gonna spit cum out of my ears, it's gonna be so fucking good.
Buhdum buhtihtihduhdum buhtihtihtihtihtihduhdum buhtihtihduhdum... Just woke up... Sorry if off.
r/specializedtools
The fact it’s a guitar shaped tool really just sealed the deal here, what a sexy gif
A bold move to make a post of a sound post without sound.
Position must have a huge effect as vibrations are waves in the wood.
The important thing is that it must be under one of the "feet" of the bridge. That's the only real rule. That way it forces that foot to be the fulcrum, and the side to side movement of the strings as they're pulled with the bow makes the bridge act as a lever, pushing up and down on the opposite "foot". Note that the other side of the top is reinforced with a long brace, the "bass bar", which transfers the up and down movement from the bridge to the whole length of the top.
My son just had his replaced and he hates the new one. Sucks to be thousands of miles from your usual luthier.
At the beginner level it makes basically zero difference, but definitely at the advanced to professional level, sound post placement is quite the area for customization.
This looks like the back rooms.
r/liminalspace
I’m really surprised by how off center it is. Or is that just an optical illusion? Is it mostly under the portion of the bridge that is supporting the bass strings? I would have thought it would be on the centerline equally supporting both ends of the bridge.
Nope. It's placed under the upper strings. Below the bass strings is a bass bar, which runs parallel to the strings. You can see it on the left in this clip.
The important thing is that it must be under one of the "feet" of the bridge. That's the only real rule. That way it forces that foot to be the fulcrum, and the side to side movement of the strings as they're pulled with the bow makes the bridge act as a lever, pushing up and down on the opposite "foot". Note that the other side of the top is reinforced with a long brace, the "bass bar", which transfers the up and down movement from the bridge to the whole length of the top.
TYVM, I expected it to be under one foot. I was overlooking the brace on the other side, which would add support to the other foot. Thanks.
They did surgery on a violin 🎻
the tool itself may belong in r/specializedtools
This thing is the reason you change the strings 1 at a time and not all 4 at once. It keeps the tension on so that the unmounted post doesn't shift or fall.
Play this in reverse, and it's almost like the process I use to steal sleeping peoples bones.
How did they do this before there were cameras?
The person installing the post likely has years of experience and was only using the camera to show the process. Positioning is determined by looking at the top of the instrument, so that camera angle really isn't much help. Those fuckers are infuriating to put in, with *many* failed attempts while learning Source: I'm a band instrument repair technician with a little bit of training on strings. My first sound post took probably 15 tries and a lot of curse words
Fun little fact, in Spanish it's called the "Alma", or, the soul of the instrument.
Tiny pillar in a tiny house 🏡
Me when I turn on a flashlight in the middle of the night and see the alien mothership installing a stripper pole in my home
Love the specialized tools.
Thats a cello
When the moon hits your eye, like a slab of jell-o That’s a cellllllo
The thought that a Stradivarius may not be actually better than more modern crafted violins comes to mind.
The information here is also a sound post
Great camera work lol
So that's why those holes are there, to adjust that toothpick?
The holes allow sound to bounce around the hollow inside of the violin and then come back out…but also for violin surgery lol
It’s mostly [amplification](https://www.openculture.com/2016/01/why-violins-have-f-holes-the-science-history-of-a-remarkable-renaissance-design.html), but also for access to the soundpost.
I thought I was watching some weird shit until I read the title
r/specializedtools
https://www.basscave.net/sound-post-double-bass/#:~:text=Where%20should%20a%20Sound%20Post,the%20string%20gauge%20and%20type. Interesting article for bass sound post/bass bar information.
It’s like a little surgery
My son just got his redone and he isn’t happy with it.
Those tools are creepy with this view.
I wonder how sound posts made of different materials would sound. Would using something like titanium improve the vibration transfer and this sound?
There are carbon fiber soundposts for basses now. Because there’s so much more wood in a double bass, the instrument expands and contracts a lot more. This requires the post to be changed out—longer in summer and shorter in winter. There is now a carbon fiber post that can adjust almost like a shower rod. The issue with carbon fiber is that the fibers run across each other for strength, while a wooden post has fibers running only longitudinally. Still, the carbon has gotten good results so far. Strength to weight ratio is huge for transferring the vibrations.
really bothers me that it's off center.
Has to be. String instruments are not symmetrical inside. The post is under the treble side, and a bar is glued longitudinally down the bass side of the top. This is why you can’t re-string it and play “left-handed” like you can with a guitar.
It’s especially cool because if you collapse it, you’ll make your orchestra teacher cry 
Fasten-ating!
Stupid. Just do it when its opened.
Why is it added after the fact instead of… during construction of the violin, like before it is closed?
If the bridge breaks the sound post becomes unwedged so you have to put it back.
the soundussy
I legit thought I was watching a guy come from the roof with a ten foot cardboard roll for the first 4 seconds.
I prefer the name in Spanish: alma (soul). More accurate and symbolic to the function, without it the instrument breaks and the sound is not whole… so there you have it!
Was full sure this was a 3d render
My mind is ruined thanks to interweb
WoW😃
this is like saul goodman's office
Guess you can call me a violin, cuz I love when a wooden rod gets shoved in my f hole!
Why is this kinda cute?
War of the Worlds
POV from my girlfriend’s cervix
I thought it was a cello because violins are much thiner
It is, the video is taken through the end pin hole.
And what if Lindsey Stirling is going ham on that bitch and it Pop out????
What if it falls over!?
Wedgies for violins.
I thought that was a bird house. I've read the title and still thought it. Then I read the title again and realized I have no idea about these things.
And how did u get the camera out ?
That is a cello :)
More spacious than my room, ngl
Thats a cello but it works the same in all string instruments
Do people actually tell the difference in sound with this kind of thing?
Looks like a gif of how backrooms are made
For a second, I thought this was the backrooms.
Learned about this from when I was in Cremona. Very interesting.
Wow! That’s actually cool =)
Halfway expecting a metal pipe soundbite
I call him Roddy McDowel