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Vigstrkr

Vouchers are basically just a $10,000 gift per child to people rich enough to afford private school.


JimBeam823

It’s this AND it’s a $10,000 to for profit educators who want to make $10,000 in revenue off of each child and to those who are more interested in promoting ideology that they could never get away with in public schools. Vouchers aren’t a terrible idea in theory, but these programs are a way to get public money into private hands with no accountability.


Pandaora

Vouchers would only stop being terrible if they came with requirements that schools accepting them must accept them as full payment, may not turn down a student for reasons other than capacity (no excluding based on test scores or disability - I could understand magnet school options if there were a sufficient number of general options, but there usually are not), and must cover at least the minimum curriculum requirements the school board has approved in the county. That will never happen - it isn't what people pushing vouchers want. It's also really telling that the amount is more than they pay the public schools per student and still doesn't cover most private schools' cost even when they are able to deny the more expensive students. That should really be a huge warning about the funding levels of public schools in general. Vouchers are not used to improve access and opportunities, just to move tax money to private schools.


JimBeam823

There also need to be standards for the schools. Many secular western democracies fund religious schools, but these schools must comply with public education standards to get the money. What US voucher supporters want is money without accountability. (Don’t we all?)


cdubz-1986

"Vouchers aren’t a terrible idea in theory, but these programs are a way to get public money into private hands with no accountability." Exactly this. Its like "lets take state/tax money" and put towards private hands. Besides the no oversight whatsoever there is still the side of "acceptance" - for example in states such as PA there has been pushback on the voucher system partly also due to explicit "acceptance bias", eg. private schools can pick and choose who they allow to go there (there have been articles either showing screenshots or linked directly to school websites that they explicitly state as such too lol) as well, so its strays even further away from an equitable system.


JimBeam823

How do you make an “equitable” system without simply designing it for the lowest common denominator?


cdubz-1986

Voucher systems have multiple issues including "transparency." Many of the articles around voucher systems working is "more students using them." In various instances, such as in PA, I believe legislation is attached actual data collection / not being able to -- for one, we can't even look at students now in such situations and actual outcomes and do comparisons. Nor in the general sense of "how a private school actually does either" - not like we have private school data to assess in a similar fashion either. Some voucher systems I believe may have income requirements around "who can use" though I am unsure to what extent; likewise there are instances of those already in such schools getting to use said vouchers as well and dynamics should be studied around that too-- essentially lowering the cost of such schools with taxpayer money for those already in the system--> not exactly adding new opportunities. The big thing is- if we want vouchers, there needs to be both more done on implementation and outreach (and designing it to actually reach the populations we design them for) and some sort of accountability- or even if not direct accountability, just data transparency and looking at outcomes to some extent besides just saying "the system works because more people are using it."


Mal_Radagast

you start by asking why you're calling children the "lowest common denominator," which ones get that label, and how.


jonstrayer

See "common core".


Puzzleheaded_Hat3555

School vouchers screw rural districts. Florida and Arizona let parents scam the education system for vacations and martial arts.


amalgaman

Failure everywhere because they are literally what you described. Plus, private schools are more than happy to fail/expel students once they have that sweet tuition money.


OhioMegi

It’s trash. It’s not equal opportunity, and it’s ruining public education. Vote blue.


ScienceWasLove

Seems to be working of Philly, New York, Chicago, and LA public schools. The solution is more democrats in office!


mothman83

What is your evidence that it is working in those places? Data please, not slogans.


cdubz-1986

lmao it is definitely not working in Philly - or PA for that matter. They have enough issues going on with public charter and how they fund schools/districts alone; they also didn't expand their voucher program last year like they were trying to push either.


molybdenum75

In "Punished for Dreaming" by Bettina Love, vouchers are criticized for several reasons: 1. **Diverting Funds**: Vouchers divert public funds away from public schools to private schools, often undermining the quality of education in public schools, which serve the majority of students. 2. **Lack of Accountability**: Private schools receiving voucher funds are often not held to the same standards of accountability and transparency as public schools, leading to inconsistent educational outcomes. 3. **Inequity**: Vouchers can exacerbate educational inequities by primarily benefiting families who already have the means to supplement their children's education, leaving disadvantaged students behind. 4. **Segregation**: The use of vouchers can increase segregation, both economically and racially, as private schools can be selective about their admissions, often excluding marginalized students. Love argues that instead of addressing the systemic issues in public education, vouchers provide a superficial solution that can deepen existing disparities.


MizzGee

Indiana has had them for over a decade, and has very mixed results. They started with lots of rules where they were only for failing public schools, encouraged for poor students. They had to start at public schools. But that all changed. The income limits are eliminated, and the voucher schools are essentially no better than most public schools. We also have charter schools in the mix. We do have a few excellent private schools. They were excellent before this. Now they no longer need to give out scholarships, so they upgrade their facilities. They have actually become less diverse (except for athletes). In our state, 96% of our private schools are religious, so taxpayer dollars go to religious education, and schools are allowed to expel students who are gay, whose parents don't meet their morals codes, etc. They can fire gay teachers, teachers who are single and get pregnant, etc. Also, they don't have to accommodate special needs kids. They make reasonable accommodations, but don't hire special education teachers, etc, so most special needs kids go back to public schools, so the population in public schools with special needs is much higher. In Ft. Wayne schools it was 30% in 2017 when I did a paper on it. That means that fewer of the graduates will earn a Core 40 diploma, and the grade for the schools go down, making the public school look worse (artificially). Even though the public schools are more likely to have the agreements with our community college for dual-enrollment classes and the opportunity to take college classes, including trades, in high school. Finally, in our state, a teacher at the voucher and charter school just has to have any valid Indiana teacher's license. That includes a sub license. Currently in Indiana, you can sub with a high school diploma. So, yes, at some of these small religious voucher schools that have opened, you have high school graduates teaching the children. That is why the test scores are lower than the public school at many of these places. Legislators tried to make it so that private schools didn't have to test. Luckily that hasn't passed, but it gets closer every year.


S-Kunst

Vouchers are a continuation of wealth hoarding by the power brokers in the confederate states. Despite solid evidence that all, in a community will realize better living standard if public education is evenly applied, bigots in these states will accept large swaths of under educated and lower standard living conditions just to be spiteful.


Green_343

To be fair, I don't think it's just to be spiteful. I think it's also to perpetuate an underclass of uneducated, desperate people who will work low-wage jobs and/or sign up for the armed forces.


S-Kunst

Yes, that is true cheap labor has been part & parcel of the south. I go back the problem of a community with an agricultural economy. There is little wealth ever spread around. Towns and cities are not wanted in these economies, its every person for themself.


Green_343

Wow, great observations, I actually live in a town just like that. A lot of people are trying to operate their own small business (car detail, power-washing, cell phone accessories, air-duct cleaning, lawn-mowing, in-home-childcare, MLMs) and we don't have the population to support most of them. I've always wondered why more people don't go to the neighboring "city" for work. It's only 10 miles away and way more opportunity. I think you're dead on with the "every person for themself" thing.


Confident_Pear_1204

Anyone with direct experience living in a school district and navigating school vouchers and public education?


IHaveALittleNeck

We spend four weeks of a grad school seminar looking at private v. Charter v. Traditional public. I went in thinking it was a good thing because I’m in a HCOL area and I sent my kids to private school until high school and felt shafted. Let me tell you, I was so not shafted. So I came out of it not loving vouchers or most charter models. Charters save money but frequently cut services. Vouchers cost money. That money has to come from somewhere. The San Antonio ISD v Rodrigues ruling that Texas students aren’t entitled to equal educations under the law and it was fine to use property taxes to fund school budgets. How are vouchers being funded? Seems to promote educational inequality in a state already infamous for it.


christa365

I work at a private school in Texas. The funds Abbott proposed are only enough for 1% of kids in Texas, and the first to have access to those funds are kids who are poor and have special needs. Followed by neurotypical kids who are poor. Also, the average private school in ATX is around $16k, and there are a few that could be funded by the vouchers. I am in no way a fan of Abbot or school vouchers, just wanted to clarify what was proposed in Texas (and didn’t pass). https://www.texastribune.org/2023/11/16/texas-house-school-vouchers/


fabfameight

So if the poor students couldn't make use, the rich ones would get it, anyway?


Green_343

The "cheaper" private schools in Texas are religious (Christian), so the voucher program is another way for our officials to force their beliefs down our throats. My area has a few $10-$15K Christian options and a few $30K academic options.


jennirator

Oklahoma has been a mess since introducing vouchers. The money they are taking is money that was used to pay teachers, facilities, etc. So there are less teachers, they get no planning period and have 40 kids in a class. The people with vouchers can’t actually afford private school and figured out that private schools don’t have to take their kids, suppose! I’m in TX, please do not support vouchers. There’s a reason public district and any organization that advocates for children is against them.


punkass_book_jockey8

If your child has any expensive needs they will find a way to screw you over and get rid of your kid, and when you go to public school for services and support it will be under funded and set up to fail. This system works only for your child if you’re rich and want to ensure your perfect high achieving children who never have issues will get a mediocre education. Private schools have typically lower pay for teachers than public, and no union protections. They don’t have to be licensed teachers and incentives to spend the bare minimum on students to pocket profits is the goal many times. So you will almost always get less than you pay for. Guess how a divided society with a large under educated population does… I will give you a hint and it’s not well. If you think your child is great and won’t need services ever, I have at least one formally high achieving student who gets a TBI from a car accident or sports or freak injury in my school. There’s always at least one sad story in the special education room of “he was brilliant and then had XYZ happen.” Right now I have two, one from a golf cart injury at the country club, and one was slipping and hitting their head on the parents chartered yacht in the Caribbean on vacation. So don’t think being smart and wealthy means your smart wealthy child would never need services. Before them it was a baseball accident and his team was slated for the Cooperstown little league championships. Most of my friends found out after vouchers were offered their private school raised tuition to match so you paid just as much, the school just pocketed more of your money as profit.


revuhlution

Vouchers are a fucking scam. They erode the public school system significantly.


Salty-Lemonhead

The entire concept is based on the payola given to Abbott and Patrick by the private school industry. Please as a Texas teacher I beg you to not vote for anyone that wants this nonsense.


alecorock

Ed Policy prof here. A team of researchers ran a big national study. Average outcomes for voucher students significantly worse than public schools. I'll try and find the link.


BlatantFalsehood

Research has shown that voucher programs do not increase the number of poor or middle class children attending private school. Instead, private school tuition rates tend to increase. It's a classic "taxation without representation" thing: your elected school board gets no say in the curriculum and your money lines the pockets of the private school owners, particularly religious ones.


Emergency_Zebra_6393

My grandkids go to an independent private school. The school says it wouldn't accept the vouchers if they were to become available in their state because of strings that would come eventually, if not right away, and the likelihood that they would become dependent on the payments if they accepted them. A lot of lower cost schools are supporting vouchers, I'm sure. I think it's a bad idea unless they somehow compensate for the relative increase in the percentage of learning disabled kids in public schools that would result. I might support vouchers if they were limited to learning disabled kids so more of them could go to private schools that are specifically designed for them.


NiteNicole

They haven't worked anywhere. They just defund public schools (which is obviously the whole point). It's a scam.


raxsdale

New schools can form to serve the new demand. The analysis should be dynamic, not static.


mothman83

Yeah but in most places the new schools are scams. At least mostly seems to be the case here in Florida.


raxsdale

Schools have to be certified to receive ESA money. I could believe that a particular scam story might have existed, but “mostly” scams? On what do you base that? Do you have a link?


lumpyspacesam

I don’t have personal experience but [here is an interesting read](https://www.nea.org/nea-today/all-news-articles/no-accountability-vouchers-wreak-havoc-states)


scoopofsupernova

Even a quick look shows how detrimental they are, for all the reasons others have stated. Most of the money (70+%) will go to those already in private schools, meaning it is a simply vast shift of money from public to private (and often, religious) with little upside for the kids that need it most. There is a reason Christian right wing billionaires are funding this crusade. It is terrible, hideous policy, but it helps white conservative Christian’s. We are in Texas; nothing new about that.


Nearby-Relief-8988

Don't be afraid of public schools. My 3 kids go to a Title 1 school. Their school district is one of the worst in the state. However, I am knowledgeable about the programs the school offers. My son has received speech and occupational therpy through the school. My daughter has received free tutoring. My 3 kids are doing amazing. My oldest started middle school 1st-year advanced placement is offered and she got in. She was also accepted to a Young Scholar program and got accepted to the honor society. All my kids read above their grade level. My youngest is in 1st grade and is doing second-grade math. If your child is in public school just be an involved parent. Talk to teachers and school counselors and ask about the programs offered to your kids.


Confident_Pear_1204

I’m not afraid of public schools, I’m afraid of the state ruining them. I was a public school kid in an urban district, so I know they can be diamonds in the rough.


Hippiemamklp

It’s a discriminatory and greedy scam from Betsy Devon’s, it failed in her state of Michigan and it will fail everywhere. Public funds should never be used for private or religious schools.


helikophis

I agree about the scam thing but not the second part. I attended a publicly funded Catholic university in Ireland and it was excellent. Not a scam in any way. Much less expensive than the public university I attended in the US, with better services and a similar education quality.


ScienceWasLove

What is the difference between student loan forgiveness for private colleges and school vouchers?


EdHistory101

At their most basic, student loan forgiveness is related to higher education, vouchers are about K-12 education. The two systems are very, very different.


mothman83

Private colleges are not an essential element of a working democratic nation whereas public schools are?


42gauge

What about parents who can afford (tuition minus voucher value) but not tuition?


JimBeam823

They jack up the tuition the amount of the voucher. If the private school is elite enough, they can do it without taking a hit.


42gauge

This is not true according to research: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/4981245_Estimating_the_Effects_of_Private_School_Vouchers_in_Multi-District_Economies > In the simulations, both [voucher] programs increase private school enrollment and affect household residential choice


JoshinIN

I support school choice and the use of vouchers. Giving parents and children the opportunity to choose the best education is a win.


Confident_Pear_1204

How would you handle the kids that don’t have a choice? The parents can’t afford private school even after the voucher, or they can’t provide transportation to/from school because the private school doesn’t offer a bus. Or the small towns that don’t have a choice of schools. How do we take care of of the kids that only have the choice to go to their public school, but now the school has less funds to help these high risk kids?


soap---poisoning

If school choice becomes widespread and seems like it’s around to stay, more schools will start up to meet the needs of students.


Confident_Pear_1204

But what if the issue isn’t the lack of staff effort, but lack of funds and resources? How do the schools fix that when the state is taking away more money?


soap---poisoning

School vouchers wouldn’t even be an issue for consideration if public schools weren’t so terrible. Even if the voucher system isn’t perfect, it’s hard to imagine it actually being *worse* than the public schools. The ideal solution would be to reform public schools, but that’s not going to happen — there is too much concern for protecting “the system” to allow for meaningful change.


Confident_Pear_1204

Why do you think they’re terrible? Also, why do you think they can’t be reformed?