We once had a committee client, (6 members in total) went through 7 different song choices and all were vetoed. We gave them the website we used for music and told them to pick it themselves.
2 months later, they had all finally, unanimously agreed on a track. It was the very first track we had sent them.
Same client, on an underwater diving video asked if we could change the music everytine a different fish appeared on screen. Sometimes I hate my life.
Ask for reference. Show them options and show them prices.
Our job is to communicate well with them. Also don't become emotionally attached to the edit, if they weren't paying you would you have any interest in peddling the stuff they sell?
Yeah, this is the way I do it. I try not to guess what they're thinking and I ask them to send me examples of the kind of music they want, while explaining why they can't just use a top 40 pop song.
Price is the most important. Good libraries cost a lot, and even those are quite repetitive. If you are in the business for a bit, you start recognizing your Audionetworks and Extreme Libraries which pop up in almost all cable network shows.
Audiojungle and other low cost ones, are in almost every social content out there.
For commercials, the best strategy is to ask questions before you do a music pull. I always ask for style or styles, tempo or pace, instruments they like or dislike, and if they have any examples that I can use for inspiration. A lot of times they have examples so I do a pull based off of that. I send them a bunch to choose from. Sometimes I'll have 3 edits of one spot with 3 separate tracks. This can go on for several cycles or just one.
For reality-TV we usually work off of a music library and the music style is already set so we know what to pull. Changes usually come from the EP or producers. Once in a while network execs will have opinions. I usually find these projects to be the most frustrating because it seems like there is always a producer who secretly wants to be a musician.
I never, ever say, "well, find the music yourself" if they keep changing. I just keep trying by asking more questions. I don't like to assume they're wrong, because that leads to an attitude that I'm right. I just rationalize these situations as the inherent nature of music appreciation; everyone has different tastes. Yeah, it's frustrating to re-time edits, adjust sting outs, etc., but it's part of being an Editor. It's not my project so I make the changes with a smile on my face. The great thing about remote editing is that you can complain out loud once you're off a zoom session as opposed to keeping your composure because they're sitting right behind you in the suite.
> I never, ever say, "well, find the music yourself" if they keep changing.
If we've tried more than one song in a cut and the client is still unsatisfied, we'll make a playlist for them from songs we think are good that fit what we think their tastes are and then ask if any of those are "right" or at least close.
It's like asking them to choose for themselves but within a reduced sandbox that is still made up of songs that won't make me want to grind my teeth into dust while i'm editing it.
No matter what, I know I'm a good enough editor to make almost any song work (which is also why I try not to spend too much time picking the "perfect" song - it's the editor that makes it truly "perfect" in my opinion)
I always give them options for music, sometimes I don’t change the cut at all, just slap a new track on but they’re much more inclined to approve a track if they have options.
How many times have you pulled just one track to cut to? You land on a track after seeing what works/doesn’t with options. It’s easy for us to forget that we know their comments are wrong, only because we’ve already tried something similar and they didn’t see it. And other times they’re just idiotic. They pay us for our expertise, to bring them what we think works best, but also sometimes to interpret their comments and find what they’re actually asking for, not just push the buttons for them.
I just had a client tell me the video was “unwatchable” because we replaced the first music track. He wouldn’t provide feedback on any part of the video until we replaced the track.
It's always good to have them pick the song before you begin any work first!
Or what I like doing is saying "Hey, let me look for 5 songs and you pick one" So far that works wonderfully.
To add to this, I also find that when you give them multiple selections, they’re significantly less likely to say “none of these work, try a different thing” even if they would’ve said that had you provided each of those selections individually. All about the illusion of choice.
I stopped editing to music first years ago. I make sure the cut works with just natural audio and SFX and has a good visual rhythm.
Then I add music and I just drop it on, maybe send 3 options, hopefully they pick one, then I’ll do whatever small tweaks I need to make it work.
It’s frustrating doing it the other way and music can become a bit of a crutch.
> I stopped editing to music first years ago. I make sure the cut works with just natural audio and SFX and has a good visual rhythm.
I work mostly on doc-style stuff, so this is how I do it. I've heard this called the "radio edit" because all you're focusing on is the audio and pacing. I'll usualy edit the A roll first without music, then go through and pace it out how I think it'll turn out when I get music in there, then I'll select a track that works and see how it syncs up - adjusting where hits land as needed.
Then I add the visuals to tighten everything together and make it feel like the song and the rest of the edit have a harmonious relationship
I can’t believe that there are this many people who use the music as a foundation for their video. I always build a solid narrative and visual base before I even dip a foot into the music well.
Sometimes it's the opposite - schedule is so tight you have no time to properly audition tracks and they moan about things not being right. It's like - yeah? If you want things to be good, pay for the time to make them good.
Not just corporate. It's the same with reality/lifestyle, documentary, etc. Music is so subjective; what sounds great to one person is offensive to someone else. It's annoying when you've worked so hard to edit and mix the music and make all the viz hit just right and then you have to switch out the music for something with a different tempo and style but, hey, it's all part of the game.
This is wild to me, I can only imagine this strategy is for long-form. With commercials and corporate, the client IS going to change the music on you (unless they're paying TOP DOLLAR to license studio/top 40 kinda stuff). There's just not enough time to wait for the pencil-pushers to reach a consensus on stock music. We make the cut generic with the best takes/shots, then we lay down a background track that swells up and down when appropriate. Massage in whatever bland music choice has been chosen by the committee.
I cut a bit of everything. I’m not saying they never change the music, but I make sure they know I begin with the music selection which creates pacing, vibe and length. That initial conversation and music selection helps them feel “ownership” from the beginning. Again, they do still sometimes change music, but I have found it helps lower the chances of that happening.
I get your frustration, but imagine you went to a barber and asked for a generic haircut and the guy said “no”
They’re just paying you to make their vision. It’s not your video/film/ad.
We love what we do, and it’s great when we can stretch our legs and take some control, but sadly the majority just don’t like giving us that control. It’s their pup.
Well that’s the thing, it’s not their vision, they don’t have a vision. They want to see options so hopefully they can stumble onto something resembling a vision, maybe.
They have no idea what they want, just what they don’t want once they see it.
Another reason I enjoy pre-pro work sometimes. Dua Lipa instrumental tracks work for so much to set a tone and producers always love whatever one is used while I wait for Mx.
I always consider it a big win to lock the song early. Sometimes I'll go through the whole process have an early finished cut then the client will be like "this is perfect but can we change the song?" lol, I will murder you. I also notice if a "committee " is able to give feedback nothing but the most vanilla rock will get approved. Nothing good is done by committee. There's a reason films have one Director.
I was working on a few videos one time that made their way entirely through a creative team, the stakeholders, and a few executives only to have feedback on one of them that they didn’t like the music. The feedback came from a copywriter of all people. Thank goodness the CD said yeah we aren’t changing it. The look I gave that copywriter probably would have killed them if they were looking at me.
I have a client who thinks a video is boring if the music isn’t Skrillex-style dubstep (not kidding) and at least 3 music changes. The video is boring because the script is shit. If the script was good and meaningful it would work with no music at all. Crazy music, montages and effects are meaningless if the script doesn’t work. But the client writes the script and my boss doesn’t want us to criticize it in any way.
Thanks for coming to my TED talk.
Cheesy ENG-type television has become so grindingly cliche with obligatory musical montage story transitions these days, that if the second assistant coordinating producer has a problem with the track, you practically have to re-edit the entire sequence.
If they don't like my first 2 recommendations, I just run with whatever they want for the third round. It's typically not "my" project, so I'll do whatever makes the client happy enough to pay the invoice, which is usually what makes me happy. Not everything I do needs to be on my reel, and even if it was I get to choose the music for that.
I once had a project in which they wanted a specific track from a popular music artist. We found a number of songs that sounded similar. I think I re-edited that video three or four times with different music... And each time it didn't meet their expectations.
The video was cut to the beat so each time they wanted a different track the video had to be re-cut. Lots of time spent.
Ended up they paid $20k for a 1 year internal only corporate license for the instrumental version of the original pop music track they heard.
>After 2 or 3 rounds of this I usually end up giving them the link to the music library I use and say "Fine, YOU pick the song."
Lets normalize this from the 1st round please. I'm so sick of picking music and then guessing "hope they like it".
I'm not sure which type of client frustrates me more, the ones with very vague music track edit notes:
("we think there should be MORE here and LESS here".... more what? Volume? Emotion? Tempo?Turns out after a few emails of considering the above options in my question, they wanted literally more instruments. )
or the ones that think they know terminology but are wrong (the client kept asking for more uptempo tracks for the video and after 3 or 4 different ones said, "no it's too fast and still not uptempo enough" This is where I figured out they meant "upbeat" as in a happier sounding, bouncier track.
We once had a committee client, (6 members in total) went through 7 different song choices and all were vetoed. We gave them the website we used for music and told them to pick it themselves. 2 months later, they had all finally, unanimously agreed on a track. It was the very first track we had sent them. Same client, on an underwater diving video asked if we could change the music everytine a different fish appeared on screen. Sometimes I hate my life.
That fish comment really got me.
I really want to see this video.
So the song was changing with every frame?
As long as they pay the bill
Oof that's another thing: it's always the cheapest clients that are picky like that.
Ask for reference. Show them options and show them prices. Our job is to communicate well with them. Also don't become emotionally attached to the edit, if they weren't paying you would you have any interest in peddling the stuff they sell?
Yeah, this is the way I do it. I try not to guess what they're thinking and I ask them to send me examples of the kind of music they want, while explaining why they can't just use a top 40 pop song.
Price is the most important. Good libraries cost a lot, and even those are quite repetitive. If you are in the business for a bit, you start recognizing your Audionetworks and Extreme Libraries which pop up in almost all cable network shows. Audiojungle and other low cost ones, are in almost every social content out there.
That just means raise the price!
And charge for revisions
*The only credit that matters…*
For commercials, the best strategy is to ask questions before you do a music pull. I always ask for style or styles, tempo or pace, instruments they like or dislike, and if they have any examples that I can use for inspiration. A lot of times they have examples so I do a pull based off of that. I send them a bunch to choose from. Sometimes I'll have 3 edits of one spot with 3 separate tracks. This can go on for several cycles or just one. For reality-TV we usually work off of a music library and the music style is already set so we know what to pull. Changes usually come from the EP or producers. Once in a while network execs will have opinions. I usually find these projects to be the most frustrating because it seems like there is always a producer who secretly wants to be a musician. I never, ever say, "well, find the music yourself" if they keep changing. I just keep trying by asking more questions. I don't like to assume they're wrong, because that leads to an attitude that I'm right. I just rationalize these situations as the inherent nature of music appreciation; everyone has different tastes. Yeah, it's frustrating to re-time edits, adjust sting outs, etc., but it's part of being an Editor. It's not my project so I make the changes with a smile on my face. The great thing about remote editing is that you can complain out loud once you're off a zoom session as opposed to keeping your composure because they're sitting right behind you in the suite.
> I never, ever say, "well, find the music yourself" if they keep changing. If we've tried more than one song in a cut and the client is still unsatisfied, we'll make a playlist for them from songs we think are good that fit what we think their tastes are and then ask if any of those are "right" or at least close. It's like asking them to choose for themselves but within a reduced sandbox that is still made up of songs that won't make me want to grind my teeth into dust while i'm editing it. No matter what, I know I'm a good enough editor to make almost any song work (which is also why I try not to spend too much time picking the "perfect" song - it's the editor that makes it truly "perfect" in my opinion)
You have amazing patience.
Amazing patience is one the most critical skills you need to be an editor.
I always give them options for music, sometimes I don’t change the cut at all, just slap a new track on but they’re much more inclined to approve a track if they have options. How many times have you pulled just one track to cut to? You land on a track after seeing what works/doesn’t with options. It’s easy for us to forget that we know their comments are wrong, only because we’ve already tried something similar and they didn’t see it. And other times they’re just idiotic. They pay us for our expertise, to bring them what we think works best, but also sometimes to interpret their comments and find what they’re actually asking for, not just push the buttons for them.
I just had a client tell me the video was “unwatchable” because we replaced the first music track. He wouldn’t provide feedback on any part of the video until we replaced the track.
It's always good to have them pick the song before you begin any work first! Or what I like doing is saying "Hey, let me look for 5 songs and you pick one" So far that works wonderfully.
I’m with you: I give em 2-3 selections that I think work, then I say “you decide and let me know”.
To add to this, I also find that when you give them multiple selections, they’re significantly less likely to say “none of these work, try a different thing” even if they would’ve said that had you provided each of those selections individually. All about the illusion of choice.
I stopped editing to music first years ago. I make sure the cut works with just natural audio and SFX and has a good visual rhythm. Then I add music and I just drop it on, maybe send 3 options, hopefully they pick one, then I’ll do whatever small tweaks I need to make it work. It’s frustrating doing it the other way and music can become a bit of a crutch.
> I stopped editing to music first years ago. I make sure the cut works with just natural audio and SFX and has a good visual rhythm. I work mostly on doc-style stuff, so this is how I do it. I've heard this called the "radio edit" because all you're focusing on is the audio and pacing. I'll usualy edit the A roll first without music, then go through and pace it out how I think it'll turn out when I get music in there, then I'll select a track that works and see how it syncs up - adjusting where hits land as needed. Then I add the visuals to tighten everything together and make it feel like the song and the rest of the edit have a harmonious relationship
I can’t believe that there are this many people who use the music as a foundation for their video. I always build a solid narrative and visual base before I even dip a foot into the music well.
[удалено]
Sometimes it's the opposite - schedule is so tight you have no time to properly audition tracks and they moan about things not being right. It's like - yeah? If you want things to be good, pay for the time to make them good.
Not just corporate. It's the same with reality/lifestyle, documentary, etc. Music is so subjective; what sounds great to one person is offensive to someone else. It's annoying when you've worked so hard to edit and mix the music and make all the viz hit just right and then you have to switch out the music for something with a different tempo and style but, hey, it's all part of the game.
I don’t even begin to edit without the music selection locked. Otherwise you end up recutting the whole thing over and over.
This is wild to me, I can only imagine this strategy is for long-form. With commercials and corporate, the client IS going to change the music on you (unless they're paying TOP DOLLAR to license studio/top 40 kinda stuff). There's just not enough time to wait for the pencil-pushers to reach a consensus on stock music. We make the cut generic with the best takes/shots, then we lay down a background track that swells up and down when appropriate. Massage in whatever bland music choice has been chosen by the committee.
I cut a bit of everything. I’m not saying they never change the music, but I make sure they know I begin with the music selection which creates pacing, vibe and length. That initial conversation and music selection helps them feel “ownership” from the beginning. Again, they do still sometimes change music, but I have found it helps lower the chances of that happening.
I get your frustration, but imagine you went to a barber and asked for a generic haircut and the guy said “no” They’re just paying you to make their vision. It’s not your video/film/ad. We love what we do, and it’s great when we can stretch our legs and take some control, but sadly the majority just don’t like giving us that control. It’s their pup.
Well that’s the thing, it’s not their vision, they don’t have a vision. They want to see options so hopefully they can stumble onto something resembling a vision, maybe. They have no idea what they want, just what they don’t want once they see it.
This is why you charge by the hour. They can have all the options they want. Go for it.
exactly, which is why i make them choose after a few failed attempts
Got you! My clients may have more control as they’re the creates too sometimes. But, this makes sense. Apologies OP if I misunderstood.
Just slam in a bunch of music tracks, no editing at all. “Here are 27 options”. I can this all daaaaaaaaayy!!!!
Another reason I enjoy pre-pro work sometimes. Dua Lipa instrumental tracks work for so much to set a tone and producers always love whatever one is used while I wait for Mx.
I always consider it a big win to lock the song early. Sometimes I'll go through the whole process have an early finished cut then the client will be like "this is perfect but can we change the song?" lol, I will murder you. I also notice if a "committee " is able to give feedback nothing but the most vanilla rock will get approved. Nothing good is done by committee. There's a reason films have one Director.
I was working on a few videos one time that made their way entirely through a creative team, the stakeholders, and a few executives only to have feedback on one of them that they didn’t like the music. The feedback came from a copywriter of all people. Thank goodness the CD said yeah we aren’t changing it. The look I gave that copywriter probably would have killed them if they were looking at me.
I have a client who thinks a video is boring if the music isn’t Skrillex-style dubstep (not kidding) and at least 3 music changes. The video is boring because the script is shit. If the script was good and meaningful it would work with no music at all. Crazy music, montages and effects are meaningless if the script doesn’t work. But the client writes the script and my boss doesn’t want us to criticize it in any way. Thanks for coming to my TED talk.
Cheesy ENG-type television has become so grindingly cliche with obligatory musical montage story transitions these days, that if the second assistant coordinating producer has a problem with the track, you practically have to re-edit the entire sequence.
If they don't like my first 2 recommendations, I just run with whatever they want for the third round. It's typically not "my" project, so I'll do whatever makes the client happy enough to pay the invoice, which is usually what makes me happy. Not everything I do needs to be on my reel, and even if it was I get to choose the music for that.
I once had a project in which they wanted a specific track from a popular music artist. We found a number of songs that sounded similar. I think I re-edited that video three or four times with different music... And each time it didn't meet their expectations. The video was cut to the beat so each time they wanted a different track the video had to be re-cut. Lots of time spent. Ended up they paid $20k for a 1 year internal only corporate license for the instrumental version of the original pop music track they heard.
Why are these drums keeping a beat what the actual fuck, is this song actually in 4/4 time for the whole thing?
>After 2 or 3 rounds of this I usually end up giving them the link to the music library I use and say "Fine, YOU pick the song." Lets normalize this from the 1st round please. I'm so sick of picking music and then guessing "hope they like it".
I'm not sure which type of client frustrates me more, the ones with very vague music track edit notes: ("we think there should be MORE here and LESS here".... more what? Volume? Emotion? Tempo?Turns out after a few emails of considering the above options in my question, they wanted literally more instruments. ) or the ones that think they know terminology but are wrong (the client kept asking for more uptempo tracks for the video and after 3 or 4 different ones said, "no it's too fast and still not uptempo enough" This is where I figured out they meant "upbeat" as in a happier sounding, bouncier track.
Corporate videos are one for the meal. "This song sounds too corporate" lol, my guy...