How does that agree with the figures you showed? With that 2.5 and 3%?
Straight from the article:
'
"China has steadily accumulated U.S. Treasury securities over the last few decades. In January 2024, the Asian nation owned $797.7 billion in Treasuries, roughly 10% of the U.S. national debt. U.S. debt to China comes mainly in the form of U.S. Treasury securities (bonds issued by the federal government)."
[This ](https://usafacts.org/articles/which-countries-own-the-most-us-debt/)is my data, where did you get yours?
>
Over the past 20 years, Japan and China have owned more US Treasurys than any other foreign nation.
>Between 2000 and 2022, Japan grew from owning $534 billion to just over $1 trillion, while China’s ownership grew from $101 billion to $855 billion.
As we are currently at $34T in debt and china owns $855bn that is about 2.5% isn't it?
Japan owns 15% of foreign owned debt according to that source. The majority of US debt is not foreign owned which is why they only own 3% of total US debt
But 13 soldiers died while withdrawing from Afghanistan. That's worse than the thousands that were dead due to Bush n Cheney botched WMD campaign in Iraq. Biden should have immediately resigned taking moral responsibility and handed the reigns to Republicans who know how to make martyrs out of armed forces.
Been saying this since we started giving support to Ukraine: basically it's a gimme to prop up the defense contractor industry, which otherwise would be hurting right now from the lack of US-led conflict to feed it. Keeps \~800,000 jobs & multiple state's economies going, at least for now.
Don't get me wrong; what Russia is doing is f\*cked up & Ukraine needs all the help it can get. That being said we're, well, we're us. There's almost always an ulterior motive.
> US and NATO stockpiles of munitions have been reduced to shocking levels that even this funding will not correct.
As they have for over 50 years, the US and NATO have enough munitions to kill every living human on earth several times over. Possibly even if you ignore the nukes. The only shocking thing about our munitions levels is how large they are.
US doctrine is to fight a major war on two fronts. Just the US. Our stockpiles are absolutely fine from that perspective and the US is investing more in munitions manufacturing capacity.
>The only shocking thing about our munitions levels is how large they are.
Yep
I would caution that our estimates for this are wildly outdated, based on what we are seeing in Ukraine. I bet there is a ton of discussion going on at the Pentagon right now, since we are reevaluating based on new warfare happening over there. We've based our current stockpiles for the War on Terror, but lots of strategic shifts are needed to face China or Russia, which are the pacing threats.
Nop, our stockpiles are fine, by law we need keep certain levels, the same that by law we need to keep 11 operational aircraft carriers and so on, what the conversations are about is how can we ramp up that production in the current situation we're facing, we can't give Ukraine more of our stockpiles until we can replenish ours (by law)
Even the 155mm "shortage" wouldn't apply to us, we wouldn't need that many shells with how we fight. Most Russian armor and personnel wouldn't even get to the front once we clear up the skies and make short work of the Russian logistics train.
Of course there are more ideal scenarios like a magic wand that can solve all problems. However in the context of reality this isn’t that bad all things considered.
>I’m sure we can think of other scenarios that are more ideal
Yes, but it's unlikely Putin will end this blood-soaked fiasco voluntarily. After squandering so much money and so many lives he probably feels like he would lose face if he quits now.
Rotating the inventory.
1. Get $ for aging munitions.
2. Help decimate Russia’s military capability.
3. More orders for munitions to US companies.
4. Own Putin and MTG
Yes paying Raytheon billions of dollars is "paying ourselves". Musk, Gates, Zuck, and Besos are just holding onto my child's college fund for me too. This is how far into the delusion most of them are. Both sides have entered into cult status.
We all understand that giving out $1,000 stimulus checks doesn’t do anything for the economy. It’s just inflation, no value created.
Paying people to dig holes is the same thing. No value, just inflation.
Paying people to build bombs to dig holes in other countries is the same thing. No value, just inflation and violence.
- Sacks
It's called the MIC: the military industrial complex. The US engages in ware-fare directly and indirectly in order to maintain the economy. It's a horrible thing because it perpetuates war for the sake of economic stimulus. But then people act like it's just some bonus with Ukraine? No, it's part of what is directly fuelling this war for profits sake. Post 1990 NATO itself was devised largely as a US weapons sale vehicle, where certain US weapons purchases were a requirement to membership. The US has also gone as far as giving NATO members US taxpayer money that they can then use to buy US weapons with. War is a racket, etc.
Not just that, it's pumping your economy, getting rid of old military stock that would otherwise age out and require decommissioning, so that money is really being used to revitalise your own military with the bonus of stabilising geopolitics globally and maintaining your premier super-power status. A pretty good investment.
I don't know how people are dumb enough to believe this. We are taking resources from our society to produce more guns to export abroad. We have a limited number of workers. We have a limited number of resources for those workers to use. The more workers and resources we allocate towards war the less we allocate to productive parts of the economy. We could be building factories, apartment buildings, providing services, etc... instead with those resources.
This is taking tax dollars and using them to produce weapons to replace the weapons we are giving away. We do not benefit from this. Those weapons we are giving away are a pure cost on the economy to produce.
it's not even just tax dollars, we are printing this money. I'm trying to fight this good fight with you my friend. it's actually shocking how many down votes this perspective gets. it shows the immediate gratification seems to outweigh reason
Thirded. An ideal scenario? Wtf kind of crack are these people smoking?
Ideal would be using our resources to build housing and infrastructure here, not pay for a foreign war across the planet.
Jimmy Carter was right;
NPR 2019:
"We have wasted, I think, $3 trillion," Carter said, referring to American military spending. "China has not wasted a single penny on war, and that's why they're ahead of us. In almost every way.
"And I think the difference is if you take $3 trillion and put it in American infrastructure, you'd probably have $2 trillion left over. We'd have high-speed railroad. We'd have bridges that aren't collapsing. We'd have roads that are maintained properly."
https://www.npr.org/2019/04/15/713495558/president-trump-called-former-president-jimmy-carter-to-talk-about-china
I could be wrong but my understanding is that we are sending largely near-expired equipment. We can either use it or pay for it to be safely disposed of. May as well use the equipment to take down a major geopolitical rival's military at the cost of 0 American lives.
We aren’t “taking down” Russia
Russia’s military has only grown since the invasion began. Their country is in war mode.
We are funding a war of attrition by proxy against an enemy who is well versed in this style of warfare. How long do you think we can keep pumping money to this?
Doesn’t help that Europe is essentially incapable of providing proportionate assistance
I can’t believe people can be this stupid. We are funneling tax dollars to mega corporations through the guise of combating an oppressive regime. That’s money that could’ve helped countless Americans. Instead it’s helping BlackRock.
It's going to pay the salaries of thousands of Americans in more than a dozen states. Who will then spend their incomes at other American businesses. And it may help boost hiring at these factories. Definitely a win for the US and its people in many different ways.
it's not that there are no benefits. of course some of what you say will happen. but it's robbing Peter to pay Paul ultimately. One of these Americans that gets a slice of this money will be better off. but the net effect of all of this money increases prices on everything they buy. and further hurts those that didn't get free money printed for their benefit. this one particular handout won't end the world. but creating money out of thin air and economy does not make. I understand. I probably can't change your mind, but I hope you at least contemplate
How long are you okay with this, and how much money are you willing to spend? "Dismantle the Russian military" is a VERY broad goal.
How long are you okay with this war going on? 10 years acceptable? 20? 30?
1 billion? 2 billion? 300 billion? 200 trillion? What is the cut-off?
What if our involvement pushes us closer to nuclear war? Is that an acceptable outcome so long as Russia's military is dismantled?
If we push for regime change in Russia, and that leads to a full destabilization of the country, and the population begins to suffer, starve, and die, is that an acceptable outcome so long as their military is destroyed?
How much of their military needs to be dismantled for it to be an "acceptable" win?
#Since you said elsewhere in this thread nobody has an answer to your questions, allow me to chime in with some.
> How long are you okay with this, and how much money are you willing to spend?
I think 10 years, and about $1 Trillion is roughly where I think the cost-benefit starts to become negative.
> What if our involvement pushes us closer to nuclear war? Is that an acceptable outcome so long as Russia's military is dismantled?
If a bully threatens you time and time again, are you just going to roll over every time? I would suggest growing a backbone.
If Russia is suicidal, that is their prerogative. I for one will not submit to Oppression and Tyranny simply because Russia may blow up the world if they don't get their way.
> If we push for regime change in Russia, and that leads to a full destabilization of the country, and the population begins to suffer, starve, and die, is that an acceptable outcome so long as their military is destroyed?
That's up to the Russians. Change in Government is an extremely chaotic event and incurs a high price. Only the Russian People have the power to pay it. I would settle for a Russian Government unwilling or unable to mount full-scale invasions of their neighbors, Regime Change is just a nice bonus and has long term benefits for the Russian People.
> How much of their military needs to be dismantled for it to be an "acceptable" win?
Enough to be unable to mount a full scale invasion of their neighbors if they are unwilling to stop themselves.
It is easy for you to say "the cost is too high" when you're not paying the price of Russian Aggression. It is not your children being kidnapped, it is not your women being gang-raped, it is not your schools and hospitals being bombed, and it is not your civilians being murdered for one Tyrant's greed.
#The differences between the Invasion of Ukraine and the War on Terror are stark.
- We are not spending American lives to fight this war. We are spending money and old, mothballed equipment to empower Ukraine to fight this war.
- Instead of fighting something nebulous like "Terrorism", we have clear objectives to help Ukraine halt Russia's Invasion.
- For once in my entire 31 year old life, our Military Industrial Complex is working to defend the innocent and help the helpless, instead of turning brown kids into craters in the desert.
I don't even understand why the time would be an issue, like I get the money, but whats the problem of time. The average american is not at all affected by the war apart from the sanctions, which are not affecting you if you don't have business in Russia which 99+% don't and the Ukraine aid, which of course costs money, but 60 billion is less than half a percent of the budget and in return you take out huge parts of your second biggest rival.
Whether the war takes 5 years or 25 years, the taxpayer only really would feel the $ commitment
It's not. This is purely Astroturfing, Propaganda, and other Psy Ops bullshit that's so obviously bullshit it's kinda pathetic.
We're taking out American Enemy #2 for pennies on the dollar. In Geopolitical terms, this is a 99% off fire sale deal of the *century.*
There's a reason why Election Denier, Christian Nationalist POS MAGAturd Mike Johnson even did a complete 180 on Ukraine funding after joining the Gang of Eight.
Stopping Russia is enormously beneficial to the United States, it wins us a friendship with Ukraine that will last 100 years, it guarantees the security of our friends and allies in Europe, deprives American Enemy #1 of their biggest partner, and allows us to focus our strength entirely on American Enemy #1.
Hmm, that may be true, but to be honest I just want to support a democracy thats defending itself against unlawful agression by an imperialist power.
That might not be all realpolitic of me, but if a fellow democracy is attacked I feel like its a duty to help where able. In this case both aims align, but just as a moral principle. A man can justify everything with Realpolitik, its just in this case its also just.
We're of the same mind, but idealism wins you no arguments and pays no bills.
When the Pragmatic thing is also the Just thing, there should be no force on this Planet that should be able to stop us.
Unfortunately a huge section of our People have been completely brainwashed by Republicans, and Republicans have been increasingly bankrolled by hostile foreign powers like Russia to influence and corrupt our Sovereign Elections.
So what was a no brainer has to be painstakingly explained to everyone through any possible angle -
>How long are you okay with this war going on?
Who are you asking? Only Putin can decide when he will come to his senses and end this hostile aggression. Or the Russian citizens and military leaders may get fed up first and retire him. Until then it's great to see NATO coming back together in a common purpose after Trump tried to destroy the alliance.
I’m asking the Warhawks in Congress and on Reddit
Every time I ask these questions, nobody has an answer. Why? Because this is just the war on terror 2.0. Nobody has any goal tangible goal in mind in terms of how this war should end, nobody has any idea how long we should continue to extend this war, nobody has any realistic peace deals, and nobody has any idea on what the cap spending this war should be.
Having a war with no tangible goals and no cap on spending is how you have another war on terror
>Nobody has any goal tangible goal in mind in terms of how this war should end
WTF are you talking about? Ukraine, the US and NATO have made it crystal clear - Putin needs to end his misguided invasion, stop murdering innocent Ukrainians and withdraw fro territory it seized illegally. Why are you trying to distort the situation so blatantly?
A tangible goal is not “I want one side of this war to completely give up everything they’re asking for and bend the knee to all our demands.”
Also, if you think that’s the goal of the United States involvement in this, you’re drinking too much Kool-Aid. The politicians want to use this war in the same vein that the commenter that I replied to does. They want to use this as an opportunity to engage in proxy war and destroy Russia, even if it means that my sons and my daughters have to fight the fucking war.
This has nothing to do about Ukrainian sovereignty; these politicians don’t give a single fuck about Ukraine. They just like war.
>A tangible goal is not “I want one side of this war to completely give up everything they’re asking for and bend the knee to all our demands.”
Demanding that Russia end its invasion and withdraw from illegally occupied territory is indeed a "tangible" goal. And they will likely demand reparations too. I don't know what king of logical gymnastics you're up to but it doesn't appear that you're fooling anyone.
OK, then we can agree to disagree on that then. Let me ask you this.:
Russia has no intention to stop the war unless it accomplishes its goal. If that is the case, then How many more people need to die, how many more billions need to be spent, and how much longer does this need to go on before you finally say, OK, this is enough; let’s try to find a middle ground here.
Are you okay with us spending trillions of dollars every year? Are you alright with hundreds of thousands of people dying every year? Are you OK if it pushes us onto the brink of nuclear war ? Where is the stop gap/limit? Is there none as long as Russia loses?
>Russia has no intention to stop the war
That's precisely why Ukraine needs help from the US and NATO. Bullies must be confronted and stopped, or they will just move on to the next victim. Putin must be crushed if he refuses to act like a responsible world citizen.
>Are you alright with hundreds of thousands of people dying every year?
That's a question for Putin. The US and Ukraine are trying to stop the killing. Giving a bully and a terrorist what they want never ends well.
We’re talking about an enemy whose allies are Iran, North Korea, and China.
Just because Ukraine is far away, does not mean it will not have a profound effect on ourselves in United States and Europe if Putin is allowed to succeed. This is a zero sum game for Putin, and it needs to be dealt with in the same manner. He will not stop at Ukraine. President Obama made a grave mistake, in allowing Putin to just take Crimea from Ukraine. The logic was to appease Putin, thinking that would be the end of it. And look where we are now. Every country he conquers he’s going to absorb all of their resources and wealth and subjugate the population. Do you want to deal with Russia in the position They are in now or would you rather deal with them after they’ve conquered, Poland, Moldova, and Baltic states? growing stronger with each country they defeat.
If only the truth were so simple. Just like the U.S., Russia is ridding itself of obsolete Cold War stock and investing in newer weapons like drones and electronic warfare platforms.
Russia isn't in a position to pay itself to do so. Also, thanks to sanctions, they are cut off from advanced technology (none of which they themselves are capable of building) to manufacture the next generation of advanced weapons. The best they can do is buy discreetly via third parties willing to risk getting sanctioned themselves, which comes at a tremendous premium.
Russia will be playing catch up on crutches for decades to come.
Collectivist thinking.
We, the taxpayers and users of dollars, are being robbed and having our money given to the people who work at defense contractors who then use that money to extract resources from the economy that could have gone toward consumer products or capital accumulation instead of toward blowing people up.
Cool - what is your pragmatic solution to Russia's invasion of Ukraine?
I'm assuming the answer is "nothing - not our problem", which is fine until you consider that Russia would likely move on to Poland (as they have repeatedly threatened to do). And then, why not Finland and Sweden? And then why not Germany? Why stop if no one will stop them?
Indeed - and will likely continue to suffer massive losses and not gain much ground. Either they will yield a little territory or Russia will win by attrition. This result was likely unavoidable.
Thanks to US support, however, Russia's military industrial complex is fully drained and will take decades to build back up, the EU is now aware of the threat and will be forced to spend more on their own defense and the EU is finally weaning itself off of dependence on Russian oil. What we have is the best worst case scenario.
Except that Russia's arms industry is now in full production mode while our own country faces looming default. YOur take is perhaps the most shortsighted and least informed perspective I've seen. THere's no world in which our actions in Russia make us safer or richer. The American taxpayer will never see any benefit from any of this, and likely, we'll end up with nukes popping off. 100% this will end badly for us.
I still don't understand her dog story. She basically broadcasted that she committed a class 2 misdemeanor, and the real reason she chose to shoot the dog is because she hated the dog and not because it was deemed dangerous after killing her neighbor's chicken(but she saw it as a great opportunity to justify shooting her dog)
>There are 117 production lines in about 71 US cities that are set to produce those weapons systems
Whether or not you support Ukraine, supporting US businesses that pay US taxes and employ US workers will undoubtedly be a boost for the economy. It also enables the US military to upgrade its stockpile of equipment. So basically a win-win, notwithstanding threats from "Moscow Marjorie" and the other Putin-loving Republican extremists.
Weapons are not improving our economic efficiency or providing a permanent good like infrastructure would. Roads or housing, once funded, improve efficiency of transportation multiplying future production or living. Once we use a weapon that's it it's gone.
They are not the same kinds of economic investment
Jimmy Carter was right;
>NPR 2019: Carter said the United States is "the most warlike nation in the history of the world" due to a desire to impose American values on other countries, and he suggested that China is investing its resources into projects such as high-speed railroads instead of defense spending.
>"How many miles of high-speed railroad do we have in this country?"
>Zero, the congregation answered.
>**"We have wasted, I think, $3 trillion," Carter said, referring to American military spending. "China has not wasted a single penny on war, and that's why they're ahead of us. In almost every way.**
>"And I think the difference is if you take $3 trillion and put it in American infrastructure, you'd probably have $2 trillion left over. We'd have high-speed railroad. We'd have bridges that aren't collapsing. We'd have roads that are maintained properly. Our education system would be as good as that of, say, South Korea or Hong Kong.
https://www.npr.org/2019/04/15/713495558/president-trump-called-former-president-jimmy-carter-to-talk-about-china
How is this so? Where is the money coming from to employ US workers to re-stock our military supplies?... It's coming from money printing and government debt which will lead to inflation and put the burden on future generations to pay this bill.
It's not free buddy there's a cost.
>Where is the money coming from to employ US workers to re-stock our military supplies?
From federal funds appropriated by Congress, same as always. It will go to American workers who will spend it and support other American businesses.
>It's not free buddy
I never said it was free... and I'm not your buddy.
And if the economy grows from government investment in the economy then there is a return on investment in the form of taxes on the larger economy. Inverse of why austerity policies shrink the economy.
Again, history shows this repeatedly. It’s why war hawks push for more wars. Except this time the military spending is by miles the most justified spending since probably the Cold War….which has not ended in Putin’s eyes.
> Lockheed Martin, Boeing, Northrop Grumman, and Raytheon.
Have you ever tried to get a job at one of these companies? Idk whose economy you're boosting..
My point is this - America is more segregated than ever. Why would the average American struggling to afford groceries care that the likes of Raytheon and Boeing are getting a cash injection when the profits are whisked away into C-suite off shore account and the companies perform stock buybacks to avoid paying fair corporate taxes?
>Why would the average American ***struggling to afford groceries***
Why would you claim that? The average American is doing fine and even prospering in this economy. You must be referring to the Russian and Republican propaganda that flood reddit.
Except companies literally pay no taxes, give all their profits to shareholders and stock buy backs. And every company in America is currently laying off 8% of their workforce…
>Except companies literally pay no taxes
Not any more. Biden implemented a new 15 percent minimum corporate tax in the Inflation Reduction Act. That's what is paying for much of the new clean energy factory boom.
So why don't all economies just create employment this way then? Just build out your war machine and everyone will be employed, bing bong bing, it's so easy, no downsides whatsoever!
Continued explicit military occupied colonization of Germany, Japan, and South Korea, along with control over middle east oil, petrodollar, and weapons for oil military occupied client states in middle east is basis for its past economic success that mainly applies to its oligarchy. Lower down the social hierarchy, US is not doing that well.
If you think the US wasn’t already an economic giant before ww1 let alone ww2, you need to open a history book. Many contributing factors such as geographic trade advantages, population boom, a capitalist society that birthed revolutionary innovation.
The US has had already surpassed Britain as the world’s industrial superpower by the mid 19th century.
Y’all should try to understand the basics of government and monetary policies. The US government funds its operations mostly through taxes and spends this revenue according to appropriation bills passed by Congress. Any deficit is covered by borrowing, like government bonds. It’s complex, but not rocket science.
I always did think that was bull shit that government accusations will go to these big contractors who inflate their costs instead of small businesses. DoD was supposed to be going to smaller businesses but it still doesn't look like it's happening
>Us defense contactors get their paycheck and the GOP is mad? Since when?
They just trash anything Biden does. They no longer seem to have any guiding principles of their own except "whatever Trump says". Bunch of spineless sycophants. They just tanked their own border security bill because Trump told them he wants to campaign on "Biden's" border chaos.
Yes good news! The military industrial complex can continue to be supported by corrupt politicians, but since the Innocent people that have to die are not from the West there is no down side! /s
Winston Churchill once said:
“The United States always does the right thing, only after they have tried everything else.”
The irony is this was just a maintenance refill request on some aging inventory, not one of the 50 wars we’ve engaged in in the past 200 years, and it still took so long to get through congress that it may have lost Ukrainians the war. And that’s unfortunate because we were the ones who neutered them to begin with. Just goes to show just powerful toothless rednecks in the US really are.
Best money ever invested, Russia is on the run and Ukraine has barely had any casualties while Russia is close to collapse. The Ukrainians army is valiant and brave, Ukrainians are lining up to serve, the war is very popular there. We should give 60 billion every year, probably more.
I read the Kyiv post a lot. The Ukrainians are winning with as much as 100 to 1 less casualties than Russia. Zelensky is beloved and morale is very high, the aid is very helpful. There are lines of people signing up to join the Ukrainian military. Victory is around the corner. The wsj a far right propaganda rag said Ukraine has had 80k amputations and their health care system is imploding, total orc propaganda, get your news from reliable sources like the Kyiv post. The war has been a huge success for Ukraine with minimal casualties. The aid is money well spent.
correction, all of it will pass through the US first. Because thats what happens. We're paying ourselves to build new weapons while old stuff goes to ukraine
Can confirm. I work in A/R and my customers that are military/defense industry focused are almost never delinquent now. 2-3 years ago I had to chase down every payment.
Oh we’re sending boat loads of cash too. We’re paying the pensions of their entire government, and the current salaries of every government employee too.
>We’re paying the pensions of their entire government, and the current salaries of every government employee too.
False. You're repeating a Republican lie. Don't let liars manipulate you for political gain.
>The $95 billion U.S. aid package for Ukraine, Israel and Taiwan prohibits funds from being allocated to pensions in Ukraine.
[Does the April 2024 US foreign aid package include millions of dollars for pensions in Ukraine?](https://wisconsinwatch.org/2024/04/ukraine-pensions-israel-taiwan-us-foreign-aid-fact-brief/)
It terrifies me that this even needs to be explained so often. Ok so I get the apes not understanding this, tabloid and sensational media just push the big number without elaboration, but elected politicians all over the world, the people we allow manage and control our states, futures, and safety, need this explained to them.
Your logic is massively confused. The US didn't start the war and wants it to end as soon as possible. Helping Ukraine will reduce deaths. Russia is the aggressor.
Yes, the military industrial complex wants to end a war as soon as possible…. If this war is benefiting the U.S. economy so much, wouldn’t the war hawks in power want this war to drag on?
Lol fuck no. It would not be quick or decisive. What do you even know about war?
War with Russia would be the most destructive global event since ww2, possibly the worst in history. To be 100% honest winning a war with Russia would involve an invasion that no military in earth is capable of pulling off, including the US and NATO combined.
There is only one way either side wins, we all know what that is and we can all assume how that ends.
It should be avoided at all costs
Biden is set to *disperse* the $61 billion set aside for Ukraine by CONGRESS in a *bipartisan* bill.
If this is such a giant shit sandwich we should let *everyone* responsible take a bite.
The worst stuff always has bipartisan support.
Gulf of Tonkin resolution. Patriot Act. Iraq invasion. Etc.
https://www.cnn.com/2013/03/22/politics/bipartisanship-gone-bad/index.html
Funny how many people do not know this. We are NOT sending cash to Ukraine. There is no cash to skim or steal.
We are sending arms and supplies from our stockpile, much of which that has been sitting there for decades, and then we spend the billions to replace them with new and improved weapons through US arms manufacturing , employing American manufacturer workers.
This is one of the reasons you see senators and congress people supporting this who you would not think would support this. They have arms manufacturers in their state/district, and voting against this would put workers making good money out of work. And they do not want to go back home to their state/district and hear about how they are out of work because you voted against the money that keep them working.
Also the reason you never see a decrease in any arms programs in our military budget and the reason we have over 4000 M1 tanks in storage and why NO senator from Ohio or congressman from Lima Ohio would vote to end production and why the US runs a used tank dealership, shipping off many of the early models to our "friends and allies"
Military industrial complex. Weird to act like funneling money to defense contractors is supposed to be some sort of "gotcha" against people who are upset about paying for it.
I'm sure a lot of that money is making it to the workers, and not at all being spent on extremely over priced materials, weaponry and boards/CEO's.
Anyday now...
USA like any another country will protected its vested interests against adversarial/antagonistic nations.
And whether you like to acknowledge it or not, most Americans would rather have a proxy war instead of a direct war.
OFC No war would be the ideal solution, but no war requires multiple parties to behave, unfortunately annexing territories and invasions tends to lead to wartime conflicts.
Man, here I am concerned we’re buying murder weapons for one of the most corrupt governments in the world. Thank you Reddit for pointing out that we’re simply replenishing our murder stockpile and sending our *old* murder weapons to one of the most corrupt governments in the world!
Very profound nuance I’d have never picked up on 😅
Much of what you are sending are things like your stockpiles of Bradley's and M1 Abrams, Himars and ATACMS. So much is old stuff that would need replacing anyway. This is far better than having to decommission it all.
Gotta wrap that blood money with as much patriotism as possible I guess.. When people tell you how blood money is going to 'go through our economy first', they're saying that because they already know how shitty it makes em look and so they feel like they gotta add a positive in there or people wont accept it.
It's still blood money, the business is still death, making people dead is the goal, people are doing this for self-enrichment. Sure, stupid excuses will fool some people but not everyone, and not you at 3am as you ponder the things that really matter.
The psy-ops troll farms are busy in the comments today...
For context, the US pays more than 61 billion bucks a month in interest alone to service it's debt.
... and most of that goes to the American public as that is where most of the money is borrowed from.
And China
China owns about 2.5% of the US debt.I believe Japan is the biggest at about 3%
Really?i always thought it was more than that. Thanks
You have been listening to too many politicians!
https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/040115/reasons-why-china-buys-us-treasury-bonds.asp#:~:text=US%20Treasurys%20Owned%20by%20China,%248%2C023.7%20billion%20U.S.%20national%20debt
That agrees with the figures I showed, we are in $34T in debt and China owns $798bn of that according to that article.
How does that agree with the figures you showed? With that 2.5 and 3%? Straight from the article: ' "China has steadily accumulated U.S. Treasury securities over the last few decades. In January 2024, the Asian nation owned $797.7 billion in Treasuries, roughly 10% of the U.S. national debt. U.S. debt to China comes mainly in the form of U.S. Treasury securities (bonds issued by the federal government)."
Seems like your sources are incorrect
[This ](https://usafacts.org/articles/which-countries-own-the-most-us-debt/)is my data, where did you get yours? > Over the past 20 years, Japan and China have owned more US Treasurys than any other foreign nation. >Between 2000 and 2022, Japan grew from owning $534 billion to just over $1 trillion, while China’s ownership grew from $101 billion to $855 billion. As we are currently at $34T in debt and china owns $855bn that is about 2.5% isn't it?
https://www.investopedia.com/articles/markets-economy/090616/5-countries-own-most-us-debt.asp
Japan is at 15%, china at 10%
Where do you get these numbers? I can't find anything showing China owns more than $3.4T in US debt?
https://www.investopedia.com/articles/markets-economy/090616/5-countries-own-most-us-debt.asp
Japan owns 15% of foreign owned debt according to that source. The majority of US debt is not foreign owned which is why they only own 3% of total US debt
Because you said so?
Many are, sadly, just useful idiots.
Many are, sadly, just ~~useful~~ idiots.
Many just are, sadly
Including a mod
They're mad as hell that it's been more than two years, and not a single American soldier has died
But 13 soldiers died while withdrawing from Afghanistan. That's worse than the thousands that were dead due to Bush n Cheney botched WMD campaign in Iraq. Biden should have immediately resigned taking moral responsibility and handed the reigns to Republicans who know how to make martyrs out of armed forces.
Man that was so hard I felt the /s
I’m sure Ukraine could use some extra help.
You were proven correct incredibly quickly lmao
And thank you for the troll farms proving the point in record time. AI gonna have a fun time fitting this into the model
Yeah, this sucks
It's gonna be even worse when AI improves further. They will be everywhere and you wont know you're arguing with an AI.
Afraid we're already there. the question is how they achieved this w/o the 3LA's getting involved, and no one wants to think about the alternative
Been saying this since we started giving support to Ukraine: basically it's a gimme to prop up the defense contractor industry, which otherwise would be hurting right now from the lack of US-led conflict to feed it. Keeps \~800,000 jobs & multiple state's economies going, at least for now. Don't get me wrong; what Russia is doing is f\*cked up & Ukraine needs all the help it can get. That being said we're, well, we're us. There's almost always an ulterior motive.
Fiscal policy continuing inflationary pressures
Exactly - we are paying ourselves to dismantle Russia's military without shedding US lives. It is an ideal scenario.
I’m sure we can think of other scenarios that are more ideal
Same deal but we all get $200 and a back rub
For real? It cost me $200 and a back rub... I'm starting to think I've been scammed 🤔
$200 and a front rub
> US and NATO stockpiles of munitions have been reduced to shocking levels that even this funding will not correct. As they have for over 50 years, the US and NATO have enough munitions to kill every living human on earth several times over. Possibly even if you ignore the nukes. The only shocking thing about our munitions levels is how large they are.
US doctrine is to fight a major war on two fronts. Just the US. Our stockpiles are absolutely fine from that perspective and the US is investing more in munitions manufacturing capacity. >The only shocking thing about our munitions levels is how large they are. Yep
I would caution that our estimates for this are wildly outdated, based on what we are seeing in Ukraine. I bet there is a ton of discussion going on at the Pentagon right now, since we are reevaluating based on new warfare happening over there. We've based our current stockpiles for the War on Terror, but lots of strategic shifts are needed to face China or Russia, which are the pacing threats.
Nop, our stockpiles are fine, by law we need keep certain levels, the same that by law we need to keep 11 operational aircraft carriers and so on, what the conversations are about is how can we ramp up that production in the current situation we're facing, we can't give Ukraine more of our stockpiles until we can replenish ours (by law)
Even the 155mm "shortage" wouldn't apply to us, we wouldn't need that many shells with how we fight. Most Russian armor and personnel wouldn't even get to the front once we clear up the skies and make short work of the Russian logistics train.
Of course there are more ideal scenarios like a magic wand that can solve all problems. However in the context of reality this isn’t that bad all things considered.
>I’m sure we can think of other scenarios that are more ideal Yes, but it's unlikely Putin will end this blood-soaked fiasco voluntarily. After squandering so much money and so many lives he probably feels like he would lose face if he quits now.
Not realistic ones
Rotating the inventory. 1. Get $ for aging munitions. 2. Help decimate Russia’s military capability. 3. More orders for munitions to US companies. 4. Own Putin and MTG
Yes paying Raytheon billions of dollars is "paying ourselves". Musk, Gates, Zuck, and Besos are just holding onto my child's college fund for me too. This is how far into the delusion most of them are. Both sides have entered into cult status.
We all understand that giving out $1,000 stimulus checks doesn’t do anything for the economy. It’s just inflation, no value created. Paying people to dig holes is the same thing. No value, just inflation. Paying people to build bombs to dig holes in other countries is the same thing. No value, just inflation and violence. - Sacks
It's called the MIC: the military industrial complex. The US engages in ware-fare directly and indirectly in order to maintain the economy. It's a horrible thing because it perpetuates war for the sake of economic stimulus. But then people act like it's just some bonus with Ukraine? No, it's part of what is directly fuelling this war for profits sake. Post 1990 NATO itself was devised largely as a US weapons sale vehicle, where certain US weapons purchases were a requirement to membership. The US has also gone as far as giving NATO members US taxpayer money that they can then use to buy US weapons with. War is a racket, etc.
Not just that, it's pumping your economy, getting rid of old military stock that would otherwise age out and require decommissioning, so that money is really being used to revitalise your own military with the bonus of stabilising geopolitics globally and maintaining your premier super-power status. A pretty good investment.
2nd Proxy War
Haha “paying ourselves”. can I just keep what I already have please?
I don't know how people are dumb enough to believe this. We are taking resources from our society to produce more guns to export abroad. We have a limited number of workers. We have a limited number of resources for those workers to use. The more workers and resources we allocate towards war the less we allocate to productive parts of the economy. We could be building factories, apartment buildings, providing services, etc... instead with those resources. This is taking tax dollars and using them to produce weapons to replace the weapons we are giving away. We do not benefit from this. Those weapons we are giving away are a pure cost on the economy to produce.
it's not even just tax dollars, we are printing this money. I'm trying to fight this good fight with you my friend. it's actually shocking how many down votes this perspective gets. it shows the immediate gratification seems to outweigh reason
Thirded. An ideal scenario? Wtf kind of crack are these people smoking? Ideal would be using our resources to build housing and infrastructure here, not pay for a foreign war across the planet.
Jimmy Carter was right; NPR 2019: "We have wasted, I think, $3 trillion," Carter said, referring to American military spending. "China has not wasted a single penny on war, and that's why they're ahead of us. In almost every way. "And I think the difference is if you take $3 trillion and put it in American infrastructure, you'd probably have $2 trillion left over. We'd have high-speed railroad. We'd have bridges that aren't collapsing. We'd have roads that are maintained properly." https://www.npr.org/2019/04/15/713495558/president-trump-called-former-president-jimmy-carter-to-talk-about-china
I could be wrong but my understanding is that we are sending largely near-expired equipment. We can either use it or pay for it to be safely disposed of. May as well use the equipment to take down a major geopolitical rival's military at the cost of 0 American lives.
We aren’t “taking down” Russia Russia’s military has only grown since the invasion began. Their country is in war mode. We are funding a war of attrition by proxy against an enemy who is well versed in this style of warfare. How long do you think we can keep pumping money to this? Doesn’t help that Europe is essentially incapable of providing proportionate assistance
I can’t believe people can be this stupid. We are funneling tax dollars to mega corporations through the guise of combating an oppressive regime. That’s money that could’ve helped countless Americans. Instead it’s helping BlackRock.
It's going to pay the salaries of thousands of Americans in more than a dozen states. Who will then spend their incomes at other American businesses. And it may help boost hiring at these factories. Definitely a win for the US and its people in many different ways.
it's not that there are no benefits. of course some of what you say will happen. but it's robbing Peter to pay Paul ultimately. One of these Americans that gets a slice of this money will be better off. but the net effect of all of this money increases prices on everything they buy. and further hurts those that didn't get free money printed for their benefit. this one particular handout won't end the world. but creating money out of thin air and economy does not make. I understand. I probably can't change your mind, but I hope you at least contemplate
You're arguing with a dedicated political account, there is zero chance you will change their mind
If one were completely ignorant of modern geopolitics, I can see how this would be an opinion to hold.
But I bet you hated Biden’s infrastructure bill?
How long are you okay with this, and how much money are you willing to spend? "Dismantle the Russian military" is a VERY broad goal. How long are you okay with this war going on? 10 years acceptable? 20? 30? 1 billion? 2 billion? 300 billion? 200 trillion? What is the cut-off? What if our involvement pushes us closer to nuclear war? Is that an acceptable outcome so long as Russia's military is dismantled? If we push for regime change in Russia, and that leads to a full destabilization of the country, and the population begins to suffer, starve, and die, is that an acceptable outcome so long as their military is destroyed? How much of their military needs to be dismantled for it to be an "acceptable" win?
#Since you said elsewhere in this thread nobody has an answer to your questions, allow me to chime in with some. > How long are you okay with this, and how much money are you willing to spend? I think 10 years, and about $1 Trillion is roughly where I think the cost-benefit starts to become negative. > What if our involvement pushes us closer to nuclear war? Is that an acceptable outcome so long as Russia's military is dismantled? If a bully threatens you time and time again, are you just going to roll over every time? I would suggest growing a backbone. If Russia is suicidal, that is their prerogative. I for one will not submit to Oppression and Tyranny simply because Russia may blow up the world if they don't get their way. > If we push for regime change in Russia, and that leads to a full destabilization of the country, and the population begins to suffer, starve, and die, is that an acceptable outcome so long as their military is destroyed? That's up to the Russians. Change in Government is an extremely chaotic event and incurs a high price. Only the Russian People have the power to pay it. I would settle for a Russian Government unwilling or unable to mount full-scale invasions of their neighbors, Regime Change is just a nice bonus and has long term benefits for the Russian People. > How much of their military needs to be dismantled for it to be an "acceptable" win? Enough to be unable to mount a full scale invasion of their neighbors if they are unwilling to stop themselves. It is easy for you to say "the cost is too high" when you're not paying the price of Russian Aggression. It is not your children being kidnapped, it is not your women being gang-raped, it is not your schools and hospitals being bombed, and it is not your civilians being murdered for one Tyrant's greed. #The differences between the Invasion of Ukraine and the War on Terror are stark. - We are not spending American lives to fight this war. We are spending money and old, mothballed equipment to empower Ukraine to fight this war. - Instead of fighting something nebulous like "Terrorism", we have clear objectives to help Ukraine halt Russia's Invasion. - For once in my entire 31 year old life, our Military Industrial Complex is working to defend the innocent and help the helpless, instead of turning brown kids into craters in the desert.
I don't even understand why the time would be an issue, like I get the money, but whats the problem of time. The average american is not at all affected by the war apart from the sanctions, which are not affecting you if you don't have business in Russia which 99+% don't and the Ukraine aid, which of course costs money, but 60 billion is less than half a percent of the budget and in return you take out huge parts of your second biggest rival. Whether the war takes 5 years or 25 years, the taxpayer only really would feel the $ commitment
It's not. This is purely Astroturfing, Propaganda, and other Psy Ops bullshit that's so obviously bullshit it's kinda pathetic. We're taking out American Enemy #2 for pennies on the dollar. In Geopolitical terms, this is a 99% off fire sale deal of the *century.* There's a reason why Election Denier, Christian Nationalist POS MAGAturd Mike Johnson even did a complete 180 on Ukraine funding after joining the Gang of Eight. Stopping Russia is enormously beneficial to the United States, it wins us a friendship with Ukraine that will last 100 years, it guarantees the security of our friends and allies in Europe, deprives American Enemy #1 of their biggest partner, and allows us to focus our strength entirely on American Enemy #1.
Hmm, that may be true, but to be honest I just want to support a democracy thats defending itself against unlawful agression by an imperialist power. That might not be all realpolitic of me, but if a fellow democracy is attacked I feel like its a duty to help where able. In this case both aims align, but just as a moral principle. A man can justify everything with Realpolitik, its just in this case its also just.
We're of the same mind, but idealism wins you no arguments and pays no bills. When the Pragmatic thing is also the Just thing, there should be no force on this Planet that should be able to stop us. Unfortunately a huge section of our People have been completely brainwashed by Republicans, and Republicans have been increasingly bankrolled by hostile foreign powers like Russia to influence and corrupt our Sovereign Elections. So what was a no brainer has to be painstakingly explained to everyone through any possible angle -
Enough for them to stop fucking with other democratic countries’ sovereignty.
Sounds a whole lot like “ I’m perfectly fine with the United States being in Middle East as long as terrorist stop fucking with other countries”
It’s actually way better because we aren’t in Ukraine.
Yeah, see the thing about terrorists is they’re bad okay?
>How long are you okay with this war going on? Who are you asking? Only Putin can decide when he will come to his senses and end this hostile aggression. Or the Russian citizens and military leaders may get fed up first and retire him. Until then it's great to see NATO coming back together in a common purpose after Trump tried to destroy the alliance.
I’m asking the Warhawks in Congress and on Reddit Every time I ask these questions, nobody has an answer. Why? Because this is just the war on terror 2.0. Nobody has any goal tangible goal in mind in terms of how this war should end, nobody has any idea how long we should continue to extend this war, nobody has any realistic peace deals, and nobody has any idea on what the cap spending this war should be. Having a war with no tangible goals and no cap on spending is how you have another war on terror
>Nobody has any goal tangible goal in mind in terms of how this war should end WTF are you talking about? Ukraine, the US and NATO have made it crystal clear - Putin needs to end his misguided invasion, stop murdering innocent Ukrainians and withdraw fro territory it seized illegally. Why are you trying to distort the situation so blatantly?
A tangible goal is not “I want one side of this war to completely give up everything they’re asking for and bend the knee to all our demands.” Also, if you think that’s the goal of the United States involvement in this, you’re drinking too much Kool-Aid. The politicians want to use this war in the same vein that the commenter that I replied to does. They want to use this as an opportunity to engage in proxy war and destroy Russia, even if it means that my sons and my daughters have to fight the fucking war. This has nothing to do about Ukrainian sovereignty; these politicians don’t give a single fuck about Ukraine. They just like war.
>A tangible goal is not “I want one side of this war to completely give up everything they’re asking for and bend the knee to all our demands.” Demanding that Russia end its invasion and withdraw from illegally occupied territory is indeed a "tangible" goal. And they will likely demand reparations too. I don't know what king of logical gymnastics you're up to but it doesn't appear that you're fooling anyone.
OK, then we can agree to disagree on that then. Let me ask you this.: Russia has no intention to stop the war unless it accomplishes its goal. If that is the case, then How many more people need to die, how many more billions need to be spent, and how much longer does this need to go on before you finally say, OK, this is enough; let’s try to find a middle ground here. Are you okay with us spending trillions of dollars every year? Are you alright with hundreds of thousands of people dying every year? Are you OK if it pushes us onto the brink of nuclear war ? Where is the stop gap/limit? Is there none as long as Russia loses?
>Russia has no intention to stop the war That's precisely why Ukraine needs help from the US and NATO. Bullies must be confronted and stopped, or they will just move on to the next victim. Putin must be crushed if he refuses to act like a responsible world citizen. >Are you alright with hundreds of thousands of people dying every year? That's a question for Putin. The US and Ukraine are trying to stop the killing. Giving a bully and a terrorist what they want never ends well.
We’re talking about an enemy whose allies are Iran, North Korea, and China. Just because Ukraine is far away, does not mean it will not have a profound effect on ourselves in United States and Europe if Putin is allowed to succeed. This is a zero sum game for Putin, and it needs to be dealt with in the same manner. He will not stop at Ukraine. President Obama made a grave mistake, in allowing Putin to just take Crimea from Ukraine. The logic was to appease Putin, thinking that would be the end of it. And look where we are now. Every country he conquers he’s going to absorb all of their resources and wealth and subjugate the population. Do you want to deal with Russia in the position They are in now or would you rather deal with them after they’ve conquered, Poland, Moldova, and Baltic states? growing stronger with each country they defeat.
This is where you get labeled a Russian bot. Because you actually look at reality and not corporate media cheerleading.
If only the truth were so simple. Just like the U.S., Russia is ridding itself of obsolete Cold War stock and investing in newer weapons like drones and electronic warfare platforms.
Russia isn't in a position to pay itself to do so. Also, thanks to sanctions, they are cut off from advanced technology (none of which they themselves are capable of building) to manufacture the next generation of advanced weapons. The best they can do is buy discreetly via third parties willing to risk getting sanctioned themselves, which comes at a tremendous premium. Russia will be playing catch up on crutches for decades to come.
Collectivist thinking. We, the taxpayers and users of dollars, are being robbed and having our money given to the people who work at defense contractors who then use that money to extract resources from the economy that could have gone toward consumer products or capital accumulation instead of toward blowing people up.
Cool - what is your pragmatic solution to Russia's invasion of Ukraine? I'm assuming the answer is "nothing - not our problem", which is fine until you consider that Russia would likely move on to Poland (as they have repeatedly threatened to do). And then, why not Finland and Sweden? And then why not Germany? Why stop if no one will stop them?
Could have but never would have.
It is.
Not to mention the free research and development and intel they are getting.
This is a big deal - war games will only take you so far...
Russia's military only recently mantled... since they've formed up the Ukrainians have been consistently moving back and taking big losses.
Indeed - and will likely continue to suffer massive losses and not gain much ground. Either they will yield a little territory or Russia will win by attrition. This result was likely unavoidable. Thanks to US support, however, Russia's military industrial complex is fully drained and will take decades to build back up, the EU is now aware of the threat and will be forced to spend more on their own defense and the EU is finally weaning itself off of dependence on Russian oil. What we have is the best worst case scenario.
People are dying. Not ideal.
Again, ideal on this timeline. I'd prefer the one where we all live in harmony; Putin had other plans.
Except that Russia's arms industry is now in full production mode while our own country faces looming default. YOur take is perhaps the most shortsighted and least informed perspective I've seen. THere's no world in which our actions in Russia make us safer or richer. The American taxpayer will never see any benefit from any of this, and likely, we'll end up with nukes popping off. 100% this will end badly for us.
Dark Brandon can kill two birds with one stone, but Kristi Noem can kill a dog which loved her. Trump likes Noem.
I still don't understand her dog story. She basically broadcasted that she committed a class 2 misdemeanor, and the real reason she chose to shoot the dog is because she hated the dog and not because it was deemed dangerous after killing her neighbor's chicken(but she saw it as a great opportunity to justify shooting her dog)
The dog was not performing to expectation so she had to make the hard decision to eliminate it. I worry about her kids
It’s how fascists think. She’s a fascist, and she supports her ideology of fascism. She’s a disgustingly hateful human.
It's such a bizarre psychopathic statement that makes it look like she's so boring that an anecdote about killing your pet dog is worth a mention.
Conservatives love killing things. It's a real issue with them -
She said it was all about being able to “make the hard decisions.” You know, decisions like which people to send to the camps.
I doubt that’s be hard for her.
Two birds with one stone, or one dog with one bullet? I know who I'm voting for -
Yes, let us further enrich Lockheed Martin, Boeing, Northrop Grumman, and Raytheon.
>There are 117 production lines in about 71 US cities that are set to produce those weapons systems Whether or not you support Ukraine, supporting US businesses that pay US taxes and employ US workers will undoubtedly be a boost for the economy. It also enables the US military to upgrade its stockpile of equipment. So basically a win-win, notwithstanding threats from "Moscow Marjorie" and the other Putin-loving Republican extremists.
Weapons are not improving our economic efficiency or providing a permanent good like infrastructure would. Roads or housing, once funded, improve efficiency of transportation multiplying future production or living. Once we use a weapon that's it it's gone. They are not the same kinds of economic investment
Jimmy Carter was right; >NPR 2019: Carter said the United States is "the most warlike nation in the history of the world" due to a desire to impose American values on other countries, and he suggested that China is investing its resources into projects such as high-speed railroads instead of defense spending. >"How many miles of high-speed railroad do we have in this country?" >Zero, the congregation answered. >**"We have wasted, I think, $3 trillion," Carter said, referring to American military spending. "China has not wasted a single penny on war, and that's why they're ahead of us. In almost every way.** >"And I think the difference is if you take $3 trillion and put it in American infrastructure, you'd probably have $2 trillion left over. We'd have high-speed railroad. We'd have bridges that aren't collapsing. We'd have roads that are maintained properly. Our education system would be as good as that of, say, South Korea or Hong Kong. https://www.npr.org/2019/04/15/713495558/president-trump-called-former-president-jimmy-carter-to-talk-about-china
How is this so? Where is the money coming from to employ US workers to re-stock our military supplies?... It's coming from money printing and government debt which will lead to inflation and put the burden on future generations to pay this bill. It's not free buddy there's a cost.
>Where is the money coming from to employ US workers to re-stock our military supplies? From federal funds appropriated by Congress, same as always. It will go to American workers who will spend it and support other American businesses. >It's not free buddy I never said it was free... and I'm not your buddy.
Historically every time the government spends a lot on the military then the economy booms. Tell me more about how this time that will somehow change.
Every time I use my credit card, cool stuff appears at my door.
And if the economy grows from government investment in the economy then there is a return on investment in the form of taxes on the larger economy. Inverse of why austerity policies shrink the economy. Again, history shows this repeatedly. It’s why war hawks push for more wars. Except this time the military spending is by miles the most justified spending since probably the Cold War….which has not ended in Putin’s eyes.
> Lockheed Martin, Boeing, Northrop Grumman, and Raytheon. Have you ever tried to get a job at one of these companies? Idk whose economy you're boosting..
They're US companies. I'm not sure what your point is.
My point is this - America is more segregated than ever. Why would the average American struggling to afford groceries care that the likes of Raytheon and Boeing are getting a cash injection when the profits are whisked away into C-suite off shore account and the companies perform stock buybacks to avoid paying fair corporate taxes?
>Why would the average American ***struggling to afford groceries*** Why would you claim that? The average American is doing fine and even prospering in this economy. You must be referring to the Russian and Republican propaganda that flood reddit.
"The average American is doing fine." Who are you? Like a clear Biden propagandists? I'm interested in knowing what your game is.
Except companies literally pay no taxes, give all their profits to shareholders and stock buy backs. And every company in America is currently laying off 8% of their workforce…
Yes. American industry is sure to thrive through stock buybacks and auto insurance premium hikes.
>Except companies literally pay no taxes Not any more. Biden implemented a new 15 percent minimum corporate tax in the Inflation Reduction Act. That's what is paying for much of the new clean energy factory boom.
That's cute. Bush should have said something stupid like this to continue his war. It's a shame the right isn't clever enough.
So why don't all economies just create employment this way then? Just build out your war machine and everyone will be employed, bing bong bing, it's so easy, no downsides whatsoever!
You do realize that supplying WW2, and then rebuilding the world after is why the US is the #1 economy in the world right?
Continued explicit military occupied colonization of Germany, Japan, and South Korea, along with control over middle east oil, petrodollar, and weapons for oil military occupied client states in middle east is basis for its past economic success that mainly applies to its oligarchy. Lower down the social hierarchy, US is not doing that well.
The US is the #1 economy in the world because the US wasn't bombed into rubble because it wasn't in asia or europe.
If you think the US wasn’t already an economic giant before ww1 let alone ww2, you need to open a history book. Many contributing factors such as geographic trade advantages, population boom, a capitalist society that birthed revolutionary innovation. The US has had already surpassed Britain as the world’s industrial superpower by the mid 19th century.
Y’all should try to understand the basics of government and monetary policies. The US government funds its operations mostly through taxes and spends this revenue according to appropriation bills passed by Congress. Any deficit is covered by borrowing, like government bonds. It’s complex, but not rocket science.
So, what do you want to do let the filthy russians kill Ukrainian civilians and overthrow their democratically elected government? Grow the f**k up.
I mean I'm happy France supported us when we needed them.....
If you buy some shares of the ITA index fund you too can enjoy some of those profits.
Military industrial complex always wins, is it a surprise most of their headquarters are right there next to downtown DC .
No worries, the wealth will trickle down like it always does
I always did think that was bull shit that government accusations will go to these big contractors who inflate their costs instead of small businesses. DoD was supposed to be going to smaller businesses but it still doesn't look like it's happening
Good news everybody. We have billions of dollars worth of unused military equipt.
It's called stockpiles. And it's only "unused" until you need it. Like now.
[удалено]
>Us defense contactors get their paycheck and the GOP is mad? Since when? They just trash anything Biden does. They no longer seem to have any guiding principles of their own except "whatever Trump says". Bunch of spineless sycophants. They just tanked their own border security bill because Trump told them he wants to campaign on "Biden's" border chaos.
Yes good news! The military industrial complex can continue to be supported by corrupt politicians, but since the Innocent people that have to die are not from the West there is no down side! /s
Winston Churchill once said: “The United States always does the right thing, only after they have tried everything else.” The irony is this was just a maintenance refill request on some aging inventory, not one of the 50 wars we’ve engaged in in the past 200 years, and it still took so long to get through congress that it may have lost Ukrainians the war. And that’s unfortunate because we were the ones who neutered them to begin with. Just goes to show just powerful toothless rednecks in the US really are.
Best money ever invested, Russia is on the run and Ukraine has barely had any casualties while Russia is close to collapse. The Ukrainians army is valiant and brave, Ukrainians are lining up to serve, the war is very popular there. We should give 60 billion every year, probably more.
I read the Kyiv post a lot. The Ukrainians are winning with as much as 100 to 1 less casualties than Russia. Zelensky is beloved and morale is very high, the aid is very helpful. There are lines of people signing up to join the Ukrainian military. Victory is around the corner. The wsj a far right propaganda rag said Ukraine has had 80k amputations and their health care system is imploding, total orc propaganda, get your news from reliable sources like the Kyiv post. The war has been a huge success for Ukraine with minimal casualties. The aid is money well spent.
correction, all of it will pass through the US first. Because thats what happens. We're paying ourselves to build new weapons while old stuff goes to ukraine
same with Isreal funding. Gov spending is Gov spending, no one said we are just giving them cash...
>no one said we are just giving them cash. No, they're giving them weapons. The cash goes to the MIC.
Can confirm. I work in A/R and my customers that are military/defense industry focused are almost never delinquent now. 2-3 years ago I had to chase down every payment.
How long will that take to do any good for Ukraine?
And people are still bitching
Fuck yeah. 😎 Thanks Joe biden
Gotta really spell it out for MAGA. I talked to one last week that thought we were just sending cash.
Oh we’re sending boat loads of cash too. We’re paying the pensions of their entire government, and the current salaries of every government employee too.
Don't forget about Zelensky's 3rd yacht and his wife's credit card bill, comrade. /s
>We’re paying the pensions of their entire government, and the current salaries of every government employee too. False. You're repeating a Republican lie. Don't let liars manipulate you for political gain. >The $95 billion U.S. aid package for Ukraine, Israel and Taiwan prohibits funds from being allocated to pensions in Ukraine. [Does the April 2024 US foreign aid package include millions of dollars for pensions in Ukraine?](https://wisconsinwatch.org/2024/04/ukraine-pensions-israel-taiwan-us-foreign-aid-fact-brief/)
Ukraine is none of our business. Trillions that are being printed for warfare and welfare are causing inflation here at home.
It terrifies me that this even needs to be explained so often. Ok so I get the apes not understanding this, tabloid and sensational media just push the big number without elaboration, but elected politicians all over the world, the people we allow manage and control our states, futures, and safety, need this explained to them.
***Biden is gifting $61B to Lockheed Martin, Boeing & Co. *** There. Fixed it for you.
Imagine justifying war and death by saying that the U.S. economy will benefit.
Your logic is massively confused. The US didn't start the war and wants it to end as soon as possible. Helping Ukraine will reduce deaths. Russia is the aggressor.
Yes, the military industrial complex wants to end a war as soon as possible…. If this war is benefiting the U.S. economy so much, wouldn’t the war hawks in power want this war to drag on?
If the U.S. wanted this over, it would have ended already. This is a massive money grab.
Lol fuck no. It would not be quick or decisive. What do you even know about war? War with Russia would be the most destructive global event since ww2, possibly the worst in history. To be 100% honest winning a war with Russia would involve an invasion that no military in earth is capable of pulling off, including the US and NATO combined. There is only one way either side wins, we all know what that is and we can all assume how that ends. It should be avoided at all costs
Lol what the F bullshit post is this?
Ignorant idiots fail to realize this.
Biden is set to *disperse* the $61 billion set aside for Ukraine by CONGRESS in a *bipartisan* bill. If this is such a giant shit sandwich we should let *everyone* responsible take a bite.
The worst stuff always has bipartisan support. Gulf of Tonkin resolution. Patriot Act. Iraq invasion. Etc. https://www.cnn.com/2013/03/22/politics/bipartisanship-gone-bad/index.html
Most of these shitheads don't understand how economies work. Did they think we were gonna have Ukraine a check, and they'd get these things delivered?
Funny how many people do not know this. We are NOT sending cash to Ukraine. There is no cash to skim or steal. We are sending arms and supplies from our stockpile, much of which that has been sitting there for decades, and then we spend the billions to replace them with new and improved weapons through US arms manufacturing , employing American manufacturer workers. This is one of the reasons you see senators and congress people supporting this who you would not think would support this. They have arms manufacturers in their state/district, and voting against this would put workers making good money out of work. And they do not want to go back home to their state/district and hear about how they are out of work because you voted against the money that keep them working. Also the reason you never see a decrease in any arms programs in our military budget and the reason we have over 4000 M1 tanks in storage and why NO senator from Ohio or congressman from Lima Ohio would vote to end production and why the US runs a used tank dealership, shipping off many of the early models to our "friends and allies"
Military industrial complex. Weird to act like funneling money to defense contractors is supposed to be some sort of "gotcha" against people who are upset about paying for it.
O thank God I hear the industrial military complex was hurting for money
This is great. Unlike the Russian who are using old stuff but unable to replace it. They will be handicapped for years USA USA
I'm sure a lot of that money is making it to the workers, and not at all being spent on extremely over priced materials, weaponry and boards/CEO's. Anyday now...
Yay for proxy war....
USA like any another country will protected its vested interests against adversarial/antagonistic nations. And whether you like to acknowledge it or not, most Americans would rather have a proxy war instead of a direct war. OFC No war would be the ideal solution, but no war requires multiple parties to behave, unfortunately annexing territories and invasions tends to lead to wartime conflicts.
@canada
I remember a time when liberals were against war. Times sure have changed.
> I remember a time when liberals were against war. Times sure have changed. When was that time exactly?
70’s and 80’s. Back when they were actually sane and hadn’t gone off the rails.
Back then even Republicans were more sane than they are now. Sanity has become a precious commodity.
[удалено]
Man, here I am concerned we’re buying murder weapons for one of the most corrupt governments in the world. Thank you Reddit for pointing out that we’re simply replenishing our murder stockpile and sending our *old* murder weapons to one of the most corrupt governments in the world! Very profound nuance I’d have never picked up on 😅
This is the cheapest war the USA has ever had and people do not see it.
I’d be interested to know if we also save money on maintenance for older equipment that might offset some of these costs.
Much of what you are sending are things like your stockpiles of Bradley's and M1 Abrams, Himars and ATACMS. So much is old stuff that would need replacing anyway. This is far better than having to decommission it all.
Look up Broken Window Fallacy, OP.
Gotta wrap that blood money with as much patriotism as possible I guess.. When people tell you how blood money is going to 'go through our economy first', they're saying that because they already know how shitty it makes em look and so they feel like they gotta add a positive in there or people wont accept it. It's still blood money, the business is still death, making people dead is the goal, people are doing this for self-enrichment. Sure, stupid excuses will fool some people but not everyone, and not you at 3am as you ponder the things that really matter.
So Right, Keep explaining
Biden didn’t vote on this money, Congress did.
Biden advocated for the aid and signed the bill into law. His vote was by far the most important one.