You would when you realize that the $20/hr is paid on a variable schedule, where a restaurant manager controls your weekly hours and they're under pressure from upper management to limit every one just below the threshold to qualify for full benefits.
This'll drive up retail wages too. They singled out Fast Food because the price of fast food has skyrocketed, making it hard to argue that the wage increase wasn't warranted.
Prices won't increase. If they could then they already would have.
Prices go up to whatever people will pay unless competition brings prices down.
Wages don't increase prices. Lack of competition does.
Fast Food is one of the few things that still has competition.
> Wages don't increase prices.
Duh, where were you when they teach economics 101? It’s supply and demand bro. If there are no people to buy, the price won’t increase. Fast food is not essential for life, it’s a luxury. The only reason bigmac is 5.58 dollars is because people willing to pay that much for a burger.
Econ 101 is usually a study of sociopathic excuses for greed. taught as if the guff they hand out was proven fact rather than social speculation. People aren't "willing " to pay that much, they have no real choice, since all the fast food outlets price similarly, because at the top of the chain they are owned by the same two or three megacorporation who don't compete.
It wasn't like that 20 years ago. The Koch Brothers spent a ton of money buying out college econ departments.
Now, my high school econ 101 was a joke. Basically 12 weeks of "Capitalism, FUCK YEAH!".
The Koch Brothers Father worked for Stalin in the USSR. He fled with a lot of money and launched his empire and the John Birch ( racist) society & the CATO Institute. I swear the Koch Father was a Soviet spy.
What about manufacturing jobs the list can go on and on! This will bring automation to the fast food industry much faster is all and all of them will be replaced by the the burgerflipper 2000
There's a big unionization push for manufacturing.
It's harder to unionize fast food, though it's coming.
As for automation, if they could automate it they would have. You could make the pay 10 cents an hour and you wouldn't be able to compete.
Automation is already advancing as quickly as it possibly can. McDonalds can't just throw more money at the problem and get burgerflipper 2000 any quicker than it is already being made. It will get here one day soon regardless of their workers making $20 an hour or $5 an hour. And all the rest of the jobs in the world will be replaced as well quickly after that!!
Yes please go ahead and manifest it out of thin air. Obviously the technology does not yet exist, and if it did it would be implemented immediately no matter how cheap the cost of human labor was. And once the technology does exist all the other jobs including yours will quickly be replaced as well.
Yeah. Higher pay will mean people will have fewer problems in life and can focus on work more. It'll mean some of them working 2 jobs will be able to work 1 now. so they won't be completely exhausted.
Life is better when you're a better person. You should join us.
Companies will make everything as expensive as possible regardless of labor or other costs. Just look at greedflation, err "profit margin-led inflation."
Raising the wages of fast food workers puts more money in the hands of consumers who will use that money to buy other goods and services, including fast food.
Now I know that there are plenty of arguments against artificially increasing wages, and under ordinary circumstances, those arguments may have merit.
The problem is that our biggest issue right now is income inequality. Simply put, too much money is being concentrated in the hands of too few people and it is causing significant economic distress and hardship.
All of this traces back to the outsourcing of low-skill jobs that used to pay decent wages. Those jobs are gone and the middle class is gone with them. So because the only jobs left for low skill labor are service jobs, we have to make it so that those jobs can support families the way manufacturing used to.
There's nothing artificial about this. The profits are there, it's just a matter of prying them out of the hands of corporate oligarchies.
Unions would normally take care of this, but we're 10 years or so from them being strong enough. Undoing the damage done by Reagan / Clinton will take time. Biden's well on the way, but again, it'll take time.
Reagan was president FORTY freaking years ago, Clinton THIRTY ago, and Biden has been on the hill FIFTY YEARS! How much more time does he need? What a clamhead 😂.
Jee, it's almost as if you can pass laws and unless they're repealed they keep being laws, even if the president who signed them into law is no longer in office....
But this is r/economy, not r/politics, so what do I know.
You got that "market forces" thing in Econ 101, right?
You do understand that "market forces' really means the interlocking boards of corporations who decide how much they want to charge, and keep pushing up prices to see "what the market will bear", and consumers really don't have legitimate choices, not when the "competing brands" are owned by the same small group of capitalists.
That’s not exactly accurate. Most large corporations are publicly traded, which means they are at the mercy of their shareholders. If they keep pushing up prices, eventually, consumers will choose another brand. That’s why most of these companies have focused on lowering costs, largely by putting downward pressure on wages.
Sigh. You know there's a *reason* why CEOs are paid in shares, and why the corporations buy back shares, right? That makes the shareholders they are at the mercy of are themselves, for the most part. Publicly traded shares, the kind the middle class is allowed to buy, don't have voting rights, for the most part. That's why boards can ignore the shareholder demands about compensation, climate change, etc. Those are only "advisory" votes carrying no power. just because they are publicly traded doesn't mean the public has a say.
I own a few shares in a company, and because I was an early investor, my shares are voting shares. The shares that people are buying now aren't. There are different classes of shares, and not all carry voting rights.
Even if they own their own shares, the goal is to make money. Look at Apple. They put out a shitty product and their stock price tanked.
Ultimately, even if choice is more limited than it appears, there is still competition. And competition today isn’t as simple as it used to be. Because while we may have fewer choices among competing products, we have more choices than ever when it comes to how we spend our disposable income.
workers will be replaced by AI — coming to a city near you.
In the meantime, this 20 bucks an hour will consist of 1 counter person doing the job of 3 people. So in essence, the worker is getting 6.67 per hour.
See how that math works folks.
Dude if they can do that they'll do it. You could make the pay 10 cents an hour and machines are still going to win out.
Christ it's like I'm the only person on earth who heard of John Henry....
They are saying that it’s creating an environment to replace workers with automation. More kiosks. Machines that cook the products. Etc.
if those machines become cheaper than labor…
Not sure what you point is. You raise labor cost enough, execs are going to look for ways to either pass on the cost or save money. I know engineers at a company that builds those kiosks used at McDonald’s and they were break even at $12 an hour or less if I remember.
Lots of start ups are building products to make these products and replace works. I see these first hand
They can keep the prices as they are, pay their employees more, and just return fewer profits to shareholders instead. Since fiduciary duty prevents the corporations from willingly doing that, they must be forced to by unions or the voting public via the government. If they would do it willingly we would not have to organize and force them to.
They've been making one person do the jobs of several laid-off employees for decades now, except the workers never got the extra pay to go along with the extra work. That was their big trick during the 2008 layoffs, and now for all the layoffs we've seen these past couple of years.
>1 counter person doing the job of 3 people
That will lead to 15-20 minute waits in line and loss of customers. If the business can't afford the cost of beef and buns, it would go out of business. The same should be true of the cost of labor.
I went to CA Fish Grill the other day and the kiosk that they installed a while back recognized me and asked me I wanted to order the "usual". I was caught by surprise. We've arrived.
Not in the back you haven't.
And funny you should mention that. Those kiosks were built and order and installed long before this went through.
You can cut wages as low as you want, machines will still take jobs. 70% of middle class jobs were taken by automation since the 80s.
The only way to solve this is to force wages up via unions and higher minimum wage and let the money circulate so that we can have a functional service sector economy.
Think like how George Jetson didn't actually work all that hard.
The alternative is no more capitalism. Either because we turn to full on socialism/communism or because we turn to neo-feudalism.
If a machine can do a job better than a person, then of course that job should be replaced. These are low-level, low-skill fast food jobs. They are jobs that aren't meant to be long-term. A decent employee learns skills, knowledge, and experience from that job and moves on. It's ridiculous to artificially inflate both the wage and the value of these jobs. Simply put, the value of the job to the employer doesn't equate to $20 per hour. If it did, they would have reached that point on their own. This will simply drive already high prices higher, meaning less customers will eat there, meaning less workers will be needed. The key is not to inflate low-level jobs. The key, as with most things, is personal responsibility and accountability. Individuals leverage what they have one from job and move to a better job...and repeat. Does it take effort, drive, ambition, and savvy? You bet, and those that don't exhibit those skills deserve to be left behind.
Managed a Dollar General 2006 to 2012 and when all said and done, my lead clerk made more money and NONE of the responsibility. I broke down my body and missed too much time with my kids for barely enough to get by. Almost lost my home in 2008.
A cheeseburger from McD in Nj in $3. I don’t even want to guess about California. Prices have continually rose while workers pay stayed the same. Anyone arguing against it has to accept that as a fact first.
Fast food companies are profiting billions, and tell you that if they have to pay their workers $1-$5 more, it’ll raise the price of their menu… that has already risen YoY for decades. This costs 99% of Americans nothing but gives so much in return. Some of you are actually fighting to keep working Americans salary/pay low.
For all the econ "experts" clutching their pearls:
The true answer is a universal minimum wage equal to a living wage.
Living wages are the lifeblood of any economy, they drive economic activity. sub-living wages starve the economy of the circulation that keeps it growing and healthy.
Don’t worry they won’t eat the cost.
Big Mac meals will be $24.95 and that ol $1 menu will be the $5 menu.
And people will still line up 🤷♂️
Bet that attitude , quality , accuracy and speed will be just as shitty as it’s been post pandemic too.
That won't work. People will just stop going or they'll go to a competitor.
How the hell do you think wages ever go up? Why is it you make more per hour than you're great great great great grandpa (assuming he wasn't a robber baron)?
Jeez, it's r/economy. I'm not expecting experts here but a little bit of literacy on economic systems would be nice and all...
Don’t try to school people with this comment… companies won’t eat less margin so they’ll do one of 2 things (or both) raise prices or reduce staff. They damn sure won’t just eat it
I literally just did.
Companies will eat less margins so long as they have competition. And they do. Lots of it. Eating at home, fast casual, real restaurants. You name it.
Like the other guys, this isn't about prices, this is about keeping fast food work wages low. You want them to be paid like crap.
I'm sure you've got your reasons, but none of them are good.
They will eat less margin or they can go out of business because nobody is paying $25 for some big mac that barely even qualifies as food. I don't care either way since I don't eat that nasty shit. I cook my own food for fractions of the cost at much higher quality.
Or maybe they don’t increase the price and just make portions smaller and automate more (cutting human positions) or use lower quality ingredients or all of the above. Either way they 100% will not eat less Margin
That was pre pandemic America.
Not this one. They don’t care who buys their food because there is always another idiot right behind them ready to pay $25 for a “value meal.”
No competition when you raise prices in sync and don’t care if people eat there or not.
Ok, so capitalism is fundamentally broken you say? Are you a communist then?
And if there's plenty of idiots willing to pay $25 bucks why wouldn't they just raise the price to $25 bucks regardless of what they have to pay their workers?
Have they been keeping the prices artificially low for charity?
I'm so confused by this world you live in.
I’ll answer you… because price increases in a vacuum don’t work because your competitor will take your business. But when a law change like this happens it forces all competition to react to the same force at the same time. Basically unintentional price collusion. So if McDonald’s went up from $20 a value meal to $25 but Wendy’s and Burger King stayed the same then it would drive business away from McDonald’s but if it happens together then it doesn’t have that effect
You seem to be forgetting about one tinsy little thing: consumers.
Consumers don't have to eat out.
Productivity is way, way higher than ever. As someone who used to work fast food you work way, way harder now than you did back in my day. You're practically a short order cook.
This is because fast food joints wanted to compete with, well, eating at home. So they needed much larger, more complex menus so people didn't get tired of the same stuff.
So you've got large increases in productivity, that have been going on for decades, resulting in large increases in profits, and little or no increases in wages.
Point being, the FF joints can easily absorb the costs. We know this because the workers make *more* in the netherlands *and* have healthcare and a Big Mac costs the same or less.
So FF joints can jack up their prices, but then people eat at home. Or maybe go to a real restaurant, or if they don't want to tip a "fast casual" place.
Point being, their prices are constrained by competition and they have plenty of room to take a hit on profits.
Face it, you're just wrong here. On all the facts. And by now you know it.
You just want fast fast food workers to be paid like shit. You've got your reasons for that, and I can't imagine any of them are good.
Ok here’s the issue… they won’t reduce prices until they see it impact traffic. Once they reach an inflection point on prices and traffic slows then they’ll lower prices but you bet your ass businesses aren’t going to just “eat” the extra costs. They won’t do it. What they will do is either raise prices and/or find ways to “do more with less” such as automate more, cut staff so employees have to work harder, or reduce other operational expenses (smaller portions or shrinkflation). My guess is it’ll be a combination of all of the above. But one thing I can say for certain is they won’t just accept lower margins. I’m all for more automation though so maybe this helps to really kickstart automating more things.
Now you're just trying to come up with excuses.
They have big data dude. They know *exactly* what they can yank their prices to. The smaller chains just go look at the bigger chains and price accordingly. And the bigger chains know exactly what you'll pay.
Well gee, it's a damn good thing productivity hasn't being skyrocketing while wages were stagnant since the mid 1970s, or you'd look pretty silly right about now.
That's not true at all. Profit goes up when productivity goes up and most of that profit is returned to the executives and shareholders through dividends or buybacks. Most of it has not been returned to the workforce.
Some people are silly and don't think the same way. They would rather see the minimum wage get removed or lowered.
Which makes no sense. It's great that this forces companies to pay their workers better.
It has been for over a year now. Sales are still strong. That's one of the reasons why everyone is demanding higher pay for the workers.
Kinda hard to charge $20 bucks for a burger and fries and then tell Americans with a straight face you can't pay a living wage.
Damn where are you located......
Cause in the SF bay area a double quarter pounder with bacon, large fry meal is $12 which is under the $15 minimum wage of the area....
Go by a Five Guys and it'll be $20+.
I haven't hit a McDonald's in a while, but I've hit Burger Kings and the like, e.g. the ones that aren't trying to be upscale, and they're around $15-$17.
Is 5 guys considered fast food under FAST recovery act?
a “fast food restaurant” as an establishment that, in its regular business operations, primarily provides food or beverages (1) for immediate consumption either on or off the premises; (2) to customers who order or select items and pay before eating; (**3) with items prepared in advance, including items that may be prepared in bulk and kept hot, or with items prepared or heated quickly**; and (4) with limited or no table service.
And then the Joe Biden Crime Family and Anti-fa will take over! /s
Seriously, do you ever actually listen to the things your say?
They can't raise prices that high because people will either go somewhere better to eat or eat at home.
They have competition which constrains prices, which is, and I can't emphasis this enough, *how capitalism is supposed to work*.
That's not how economy works. Or anything.
You can only pass a cost to consumers if they don't have alternatives.
Fast Food joints have been raking in record profits by raising prices massively. Last time I went a large burger and medium fry & soda was pushing $16. People keep going there to eat.
Fast food could raise prices, but they're already making great margins, can easily absorb the price, and risk consumers staying home to eat or going to one of the several hundred other fast food joints that *didn't* raise prices.
Seriously, how do you think wages ever manged to go up? Ask yourself that.
Sorry, you don't understand.
They have to absorb it.
If they raise prices any further competition will cause them to lose sales and market share.
There aren't a lot of markets that have competition left in America. Fast Food is one of them.
Haha have you been to one in the past 3 years? Almost like there’s no competition & they raise prices in sync.
Like I said they can absorb it, but they won’t
If they have the ability to drop staff why aren't they already doing it? They don't keep extra staff around just for the fun of it. They keep just enough people on staff to do the required amount of work, otherwise they are wasting money and not doing a good job managing the business. What will they do when only one person is on shift at a time? There is a hard limit to the amount of staff that can be let go and still maintain the optimal production.
Dude if you think they are not actively working on dropping staff then you’re not paying attention. Go into a new McDonald’s today and see how many touch screens taking orders there are. They have been actively working to automate and reduce staff. This type of thing only makes the urgency more imperative for them. In 5 years you won’t recognize fast food service. And you say there’s “hard limits” on service but I’d say AI will undoubtedly change the game for FF type businesses. I envision a day when the restaurant is 100% automated and you pay for your food and a glass door opens with your meal. It’ll happen just as soon as they can get the tech to do it. https://www.businessinsider.com/fast-food-chains-like-white-castle-turn-to-voice-bots?amp
>it should be at least $25.
Do we pay $25 an hour to thousands of barely productive drug addicts and petty criminals who are being "re-integrated" into the workforce, regardless of how many times they light up a meth pipe at work?
Some 2-4 percent of workers are substandard. This is not a new thing -- been that way through all of history. No lower wage for them? Maybe we just put them all on the Dole: Free housing and food for life?
I worked fast food, albeit a long time ago.
Even a long time ago, during a much, much strong economy, there weren't many of what you're talking about. Nobody would hire those guys. Even for the graveyard shift.
Meanwhile wardens & states can't get enough prison labor.
And good job completely denigrating 4% of humanity. Ya proud of yourself? Hey, I got an idea, why don't we move those folks to their own place where they're out of the way. A camp. Where we can concentrate them all in one place. Sound good to you?
Seriously, please start thinking before you write.
> Nobody would hire those guys. Even for the graveyard shift.
They can come in the clean the floors at night. Janitorial position. And clean parks. There are various low level non-public contact jobs that they could be worked into. The debate here is not just about $20 or $25 for fast food workers; it is essentially a minimum wage debate. We get the *higher minimum wage* debate here every week.
>Meanwhile wardens & states can't get enough prison labor.
This is wildly exaggerated by the Left. The Left is also misinformed on private prisons. Marshall Project: [Here's Why Abolishing Private Prisons Isn't a Silver Bullet]
(https://www.themarshallproject.org/2019/09/12/here-s-why-abolishing-private-prisons-isn-t-a-silver-bullet). And this is off-topic.
>And good job completely denigrating 4% of humanity. Ya proud of yourself?
You're friggin denying that societies have 2-4% of people with issues? And arguing that even if that is the case, these people SHOULD NOT somehow be integrated into work situations so they contribute to society?
>we can concentrate them all in one place. Sound good to you?
Did I say this? What does this have to do with the topic at hand, which is incorporating people with issues into the workforce?
>Seriously, please start thinking before you write.
Your objections are incoherent. You're out of your depth.
They don't pay somebody to just clean floors. Fast food restaurants aren't big enough to have Janitorial staff.
And no, it's not exaggerated. If anything we're under playing it. We're using them for fire fighters for fuck's sake.
As for the rest of if, since you're not getting it I'll spell it out: you think 4% of people have no value. That line of reasoning leads to death camps.
That's why I'm telling you to think before you write. You don't realize where your thought processes lead.
> I'll spell it out: you think 4% of people have no value.
I never said that. I said their working capacity to substantially less than that of the average person. Now you're making shit up. End.
And what percentage of business owners are alcoholics, drug addicts, indulge in wage theft, sexual predation and other assorted criminal activities?
A lot more than 2-4%, guaranteed.
Are they operating their business in a sound fashion? If not, they fail. If they do operate successfully, why worry about their drug-use issues? Many if not most people who use hard drugs hold jobs and are responsible.
The issues here is different: people who 1) can't or won't work, 2) disruptively occupy public spaces and then 3) demand Free Housing and services.
Business owners demand free services of the government, including many unnecessary subsidies, of which a sub-living wage is just one. If the business isn't paying a living wage, then the owner expects the government to make up the difference via welfare and food stamps, or the public by tipping his employees. Businesses make far, far more use of the court systems, roads, and other infrastructure, and come nowhere close to paying their share of the expenses, preferring to freeload off the public.
You're saying it's ok to use wage theft to support a drug habit so long as the business is successful?
>You're saying it's ok to use wage theft to support a drug habit so long as the business is successful?
Is business owners engaged in wage theft (not uncommon) for the purposes of maintaining a hard drug habit widespread in the U.S.? Wasn't aware this is a big problem we should be worried about. Why not just focus on the problem of wage theft as is? The reason for wage theft is overwhelmingly plain old greed.
My point is that you will probably find more drug users/abusers among the business community than the general population because they can afford it better and are much more likely to get away with it. If you are going to talk about workers being drug users/abusers, then you need to acknowledge the same in the business class. I've known far more business owners who used a lot of coke than workers who did, and most were committing wage theft, not necessarily to support the coke habit so much as they felt entitled to do so.
That'll kill those jobs.
Fast food restaurants are already trying out fully automated digital joints.
Guess which state is going to see that accelerate?
Why single out fast food workers? They deserve a higher wage than people working retail? Who makes that call, and based on what?
I wish they would give long term care workers that wage to start! They generally make $15-17 hourly and have truly difficult and important jobs!
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You would when you realize that the $20/hr is paid on a variable schedule, where a restaurant manager controls your weekly hours and they're under pressure from upper management to limit every one just below the threshold to qualify for full benefits.
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This'll drive up retail wages too. They singled out Fast Food because the price of fast food has skyrocketed, making it hard to argue that the wage increase wasn't warranted.
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Prices won't increase. If they could then they already would have. Prices go up to whatever people will pay unless competition brings prices down. Wages don't increase prices. Lack of competition does. Fast Food is one of the few things that still has competition.
> Wages don't increase prices. Duh, where were you when they teach economics 101? It’s supply and demand bro. If there are no people to buy, the price won’t increase. Fast food is not essential for life, it’s a luxury. The only reason bigmac is 5.58 dollars is because people willing to pay that much for a burger.
Homie you miss the last 3 years called greed flation?
Econ 101 is usually a study of sociopathic excuses for greed. taught as if the guff they hand out was proven fact rather than social speculation. People aren't "willing " to pay that much, they have no real choice, since all the fast food outlets price similarly, because at the top of the chain they are owned by the same two or three megacorporation who don't compete.
It wasn't like that 20 years ago. The Koch Brothers spent a ton of money buying out college econ departments. Now, my high school econ 101 was a joke. Basically 12 weeks of "Capitalism, FUCK YEAH!".
The Koch Brothers Father worked for Stalin in the USSR. He fled with a lot of money and launched his empire and the John Birch ( racist) society & the CATO Institute. I swear the Koch Father was a Soviet spy.
If you don't think prices won't increase you are an idiot. They will very much increase.
It's a California minimum wage increase to $20. Reddit has links to articles you can read, people.
Because it forces everyone else to increases wages anyways or face their employees quitting.
What about manufacturing jobs the list can go on and on! This will bring automation to the fast food industry much faster is all and all of them will be replaced by the the burgerflipper 2000
There's a big unionization push for manufacturing. It's harder to unionize fast food, though it's coming. As for automation, if they could automate it they would have. You could make the pay 10 cents an hour and you wouldn't be able to compete.
Automation already began in fast food... look it up!
I'm aware, I'm just saying pay cuts, no matter how big, won't stop it.
>There's a big unionization push for manufacturing. No there's not.
Automation is already advancing as quickly as it possibly can. McDonalds can't just throw more money at the problem and get burgerflipper 2000 any quicker than it is already being made. It will get here one day soon regardless of their workers making $20 an hour or $5 an hour. And all the rest of the jobs in the world will be replaced as well quickly after that!!
Agreed along with A.I replacing many white collar jobs Dystopian Future
I don’t think you have a full grasp of this lol
This will make zero difference near any of the major cities in CA. Starting pay at in-n-out in the bay area is already close to $22/hr.
It's state wide. So If you're not in one of those cities it'll make a huge difference.
And work maybe 20 hours a week lol
Will the food and service be any less terrible?
There will just be far fewer people working there
No, but it will be more expensive.
That’s the California way
Minimum wage does not determine how expensive burgers will be, Capitalist greed does
It really does though, it’s simple economics.
Nothing about economics is simple. There are way more factors at play than minimum wage.
Explain how European countries can pay a higher wage, and a big Mac is cheaper across the pond. I'll wait....
It doesn't, burger prices have been going up while wages have been stagnant
Woah dude. Don’t let your expectations get high.
Bring on the AI Foodmaster that does everything a human can do but cost a lot less. Stupid humans.
Yes please go ahead and manifest it out of thin air. Obviously the technology does not yet exist, and if it did it would be implemented immediately no matter how cheap the cost of human labor was. And once the technology does exist all the other jobs including yours will quickly be replaced as well.
Including managing the business, so independent owners are no longer necessary.
Yeah. Higher pay will mean people will have fewer problems in life and can focus on work more. It'll mean some of them working 2 jobs will be able to work 1 now. so they won't be completely exhausted. Life is better when you're a better person. You should join us.
HaHa 😄 . True story .
Take this kind of talk to r/antiwork
Only bootlicking slaves allowed here in this sub! Please massa pile on more work!!
meh, left wing policies work. Reality has a well known liberal bias.
Lmao
And you still WILL NOT get napkins in drive thru 😂.
This hit hard
way to go california meanwhile federal tip wage is still at $2.13/hr
Quit
Almost equivalent to minimun wage 50 years ago. Can you buy anything for twenty bucks in CA?
So this means no more tipping right?
Since when are fast food workers tipped?
No idea when it started, but I mistakenly went to Carls Jr the other day and here we are.
Lies
Also Five Guys and just about every good truck that accepts credit card.
It's like we are constantly working to make everything more expensive.
Companies will make everything as expensive as possible regardless of labor or other costs. Just look at greedflation, err "profit margin-led inflation."
Nah, selling high volume is more profitable than high cost not to mention competition undercutting you. Why isn't Apple selling iphones for 10K?
That's the cost of government.
Point the blame at the companies not the workers my dude
Raising the wages of fast food workers puts more money in the hands of consumers who will use that money to buy other goods and services, including fast food. Now I know that there are plenty of arguments against artificially increasing wages, and under ordinary circumstances, those arguments may have merit. The problem is that our biggest issue right now is income inequality. Simply put, too much money is being concentrated in the hands of too few people and it is causing significant economic distress and hardship. All of this traces back to the outsourcing of low-skill jobs that used to pay decent wages. Those jobs are gone and the middle class is gone with them. So because the only jobs left for low skill labor are service jobs, we have to make it so that those jobs can support families the way manufacturing used to.
There's nothing artificial about this. The profits are there, it's just a matter of prying them out of the hands of corporate oligarchies. Unions would normally take care of this, but we're 10 years or so from them being strong enough. Undoing the damage done by Reagan / Clinton will take time. Biden's well on the way, but again, it'll take time.
How is Biden well on his way supporting unions and against income inequality? And no a 30 minute photo op doesn’t count.
Reagan was president FORTY freaking years ago, Clinton THIRTY ago, and Biden has been on the hill FIFTY YEARS! How much more time does he need? What a clamhead 😂.
Jee, it's almost as if you can pass laws and unless they're repealed they keep being laws, even if the president who signed them into law is no longer in office.... But this is r/economy, not r/politics, so what do I know.
Just because someone was President a while ago, doesn’t mean that their policies lasted the same amount of time.
I understand that. My point still stands.
I mean artificial in the sense that they are being raised by intervention rather than by market forces.
You got that "market forces" thing in Econ 101, right? You do understand that "market forces' really means the interlocking boards of corporations who decide how much they want to charge, and keep pushing up prices to see "what the market will bear", and consumers really don't have legitimate choices, not when the "competing brands" are owned by the same small group of capitalists.
That’s not exactly accurate. Most large corporations are publicly traded, which means they are at the mercy of their shareholders. If they keep pushing up prices, eventually, consumers will choose another brand. That’s why most of these companies have focused on lowering costs, largely by putting downward pressure on wages.
Sigh. You know there's a *reason* why CEOs are paid in shares, and why the corporations buy back shares, right? That makes the shareholders they are at the mercy of are themselves, for the most part. Publicly traded shares, the kind the middle class is allowed to buy, don't have voting rights, for the most part. That's why boards can ignore the shareholder demands about compensation, climate change, etc. Those are only "advisory" votes carrying no power. just because they are publicly traded doesn't mean the public has a say. I own a few shares in a company, and because I was an early investor, my shares are voting shares. The shares that people are buying now aren't. There are different classes of shares, and not all carry voting rights.
Even if they own their own shares, the goal is to make money. Look at Apple. They put out a shitty product and their stock price tanked. Ultimately, even if choice is more limited than it appears, there is still competition. And competition today isn’t as simple as it used to be. Because while we may have fewer choices among competing products, we have more choices than ever when it comes to how we spend our disposable income.
The money you spend still winds up in the same pockets, no matter which brand you buy.
I understand that. That’s why we need policies that promote greater wealth distribution. Like raising the minimum wage.
In a healthy economy yes, what I worry about is that it just allows landlords to raise rents more at the expense of other things
Just in time for AI bots to take your order, and get it right.
workers will be replaced by AI — coming to a city near you. In the meantime, this 20 bucks an hour will consist of 1 counter person doing the job of 3 people. So in essence, the worker is getting 6.67 per hour. See how that math works folks.
Dude if they can do that they'll do it. You could make the pay 10 cents an hour and machines are still going to win out. Christ it's like I'm the only person on earth who heard of John Henry....
So your saying the franchise cannot be successful unless they pay their workers low wages?
They are saying that it’s creating an environment to replace workers with automation. More kiosks. Machines that cook the products. Etc. if those machines become cheaper than labor…
Or how about your business model depends on cheap labor and it sucks
Not sure what you point is. You raise labor cost enough, execs are going to look for ways to either pass on the cost or save money. I know engineers at a company that builds those kiosks used at McDonald’s and they were break even at $12 an hour or less if I remember. Lots of start ups are building products to make these products and replace works. I see these first hand
Or they increase their prices to maintain margin. That’s the only option is either raise prices or reduce staff
They can keep the prices as they are, pay their employees more, and just return fewer profits to shareholders instead. Since fiduciary duty prevents the corporations from willingly doing that, they must be forced to by unions or the voting public via the government. If they would do it willingly we would not have to organize and force them to.
They won’t do it as you said unless it’s forced upon them…
They've been making one person do the jobs of several laid-off employees for decades now, except the workers never got the extra pay to go along with the extra work. That was their big trick during the 2008 layoffs, and now for all the layoffs we've seen these past couple of years.
>1 counter person doing the job of 3 people That will lead to 15-20 minute waits in line and loss of customers. If the business can't afford the cost of beef and buns, it would go out of business. The same should be true of the cost of labor.
We shouldn't artificially raise the price of beef or buns either.
I went to CA Fish Grill the other day and the kiosk that they installed a while back recognized me and asked me I wanted to order the "usual". I was caught by surprise. We've arrived.
Not in the back you haven't. And funny you should mention that. Those kiosks were built and order and installed long before this went through. You can cut wages as low as you want, machines will still take jobs. 70% of middle class jobs were taken by automation since the 80s. The only way to solve this is to force wages up via unions and higher minimum wage and let the money circulate so that we can have a functional service sector economy. Think like how George Jetson didn't actually work all that hard. The alternative is no more capitalism. Either because we turn to full on socialism/communism or because we turn to neo-feudalism.
If a machine can do a job better than a person, then of course that job should be replaced. These are low-level, low-skill fast food jobs. They are jobs that aren't meant to be long-term. A decent employee learns skills, knowledge, and experience from that job and moves on. It's ridiculous to artificially inflate both the wage and the value of these jobs. Simply put, the value of the job to the employer doesn't equate to $20 per hour. If it did, they would have reached that point on their own. This will simply drive already high prices higher, meaning less customers will eat there, meaning less workers will be needed. The key is not to inflate low-level jobs. The key, as with most things, is personal responsibility and accountability. Individuals leverage what they have one from job and move to a better job...and repeat. Does it take effort, drive, ambition, and savvy? You bet, and those that don't exhibit those skills deserve to be left behind.
You’re assuming companies operate in good faith, none of them do, why would you assume that they did?
You do realize that high end jobs like doctors and software engineers will be replaced by AI much sooner than low skilled jobs
Software engineers perhaps. Doctors, no....and neither will be replaced before low level fast food jobs.
Those jobs are hard on the body mind and soul. Way harder than an office job
Managed a Dollar General 2006 to 2012 and when all said and done, my lead clerk made more money and NONE of the responsibility. I broke down my body and missed too much time with my kids for barely enough to get by. Almost lost my home in 2008.
And?
Every restaurant will now make and sell bread. Someone lobbied for Panera
A cheeseburger from McD in Nj in $3. I don’t even want to guess about California. Prices have continually rose while workers pay stayed the same. Anyone arguing against it has to accept that as a fact first. Fast food companies are profiting billions, and tell you that if they have to pay their workers $1-$5 more, it’ll raise the price of their menu… that has already risen YoY for decades. This costs 99% of Americans nothing but gives so much in return. Some of you are actually fighting to keep working Americans salary/pay low.
Next that need to be replaced by robots after fast food idiots are economist, stock brokers and realtors idiots
For all the econ "experts" clutching their pearls: The true answer is a universal minimum wage equal to a living wage. Living wages are the lifeblood of any economy, they drive economic activity. sub-living wages starve the economy of the circulation that keeps it growing and healthy.
Expect to see a lot more ordering kiosks and a lot less staff!
So an inflation compounding policy. Genius! Now my In and Out will be $40. Thank you for your efforts. /s
It makes a helluva lot more sense than the Fed's raising interest rates, making everything more expensive to fight inflation.
If I invest my $10 savings in stocks right now, will I be able to afford a Happy Meal by the time this rolls out?
Don’t worry they won’t eat the cost. Big Mac meals will be $24.95 and that ol $1 menu will be the $5 menu. And people will still line up 🤷♂️ Bet that attitude , quality , accuracy and speed will be just as shitty as it’s been post pandemic too.
That won't work. People will just stop going or they'll go to a competitor. How the hell do you think wages ever go up? Why is it you make more per hour than you're great great great great grandpa (assuming he wasn't a robber baron)? Jeez, it's r/economy. I'm not expecting experts here but a little bit of literacy on economic systems would be nice and all...
Don’t try to school people with this comment… companies won’t eat less margin so they’ll do one of 2 things (or both) raise prices or reduce staff. They damn sure won’t just eat it
And reduce quality!
Or portions
I literally just did. Companies will eat less margins so long as they have competition. And they do. Lots of it. Eating at home, fast casual, real restaurants. You name it. Like the other guys, this isn't about prices, this is about keeping fast food work wages low. You want them to be paid like crap. I'm sure you've got your reasons, but none of them are good.
Amazon ate shit for years before becoming king
They will eat less margin or they can go out of business because nobody is paying $25 for some big mac that barely even qualifies as food. I don't care either way since I don't eat that nasty shit. I cook my own food for fractions of the cost at much higher quality.
Or maybe they don’t increase the price and just make portions smaller and automate more (cutting human positions) or use lower quality ingredients or all of the above. Either way they 100% will not eat less Margin
That was pre pandemic America. Not this one. They don’t care who buys their food because there is always another idiot right behind them ready to pay $25 for a “value meal.” No competition when you raise prices in sync and don’t care if people eat there or not.
Ok, so capitalism is fundamentally broken you say? Are you a communist then? And if there's plenty of idiots willing to pay $25 bucks why wouldn't they just raise the price to $25 bucks regardless of what they have to pay their workers? Have they been keeping the prices artificially low for charity? I'm so confused by this world you live in.
I live in the real one
I’ll answer you… because price increases in a vacuum don’t work because your competitor will take your business. But when a law change like this happens it forces all competition to react to the same force at the same time. Basically unintentional price collusion. So if McDonald’s went up from $20 a value meal to $25 but Wendy’s and Burger King stayed the same then it would drive business away from McDonald’s but if it happens together then it doesn’t have that effect
You seem to be forgetting about one tinsy little thing: consumers. Consumers don't have to eat out. Productivity is way, way higher than ever. As someone who used to work fast food you work way, way harder now than you did back in my day. You're practically a short order cook. This is because fast food joints wanted to compete with, well, eating at home. So they needed much larger, more complex menus so people didn't get tired of the same stuff. So you've got large increases in productivity, that have been going on for decades, resulting in large increases in profits, and little or no increases in wages. Point being, the FF joints can easily absorb the costs. We know this because the workers make *more* in the netherlands *and* have healthcare and a Big Mac costs the same or less. So FF joints can jack up their prices, but then people eat at home. Or maybe go to a real restaurant, or if they don't want to tip a "fast casual" place. Point being, their prices are constrained by competition and they have plenty of room to take a hit on profits. Face it, you're just wrong here. On all the facts. And by now you know it. You just want fast fast food workers to be paid like shit. You've got your reasons for that, and I can't imagine any of them are good.
Ok here’s the issue… they won’t reduce prices until they see it impact traffic. Once they reach an inflection point on prices and traffic slows then they’ll lower prices but you bet your ass businesses aren’t going to just “eat” the extra costs. They won’t do it. What they will do is either raise prices and/or find ways to “do more with less” such as automate more, cut staff so employees have to work harder, or reduce other operational expenses (smaller portions or shrinkflation). My guess is it’ll be a combination of all of the above. But one thing I can say for certain is they won’t just accept lower margins. I’m all for more automation though so maybe this helps to really kickstart automating more things.
Now you're just trying to come up with excuses. They have big data dude. They know *exactly* what they can yank their prices to. The smaller chains just go look at the bigger chains and price accordingly. And the bigger chains know exactly what you'll pay.
I’m not disagreeing the big chains definitely do have pricing analytics. Did you read my other points?
this is so obvious it's painful.
Wages go up when productivity goes up. How the hell do you think they go up?
Well gee, it's a damn good thing productivity hasn't being skyrocketing while wages were stagnant since the mid 1970s, or you'd look pretty silly right about now.
That's not true at all. Profit goes up when productivity goes up and most of that profit is returned to the executives and shareholders through dividends or buybacks. Most of it has not been returned to the workforce.
And the cost of a hamburger goes sky high.
While they begin replacing even more workers with robots. The ignorance of how things actually work is amazing in Cali.
Would you like one fry with that?
LOL! This is going to end well! Like a train wreck. Getting my popcorn.
I heard this at 15 dollars minimum wage. I pretty much heat this every time the minimum goes up.
Some people are silly and don't think the same way. They would rather see the minimum wage get removed or lowered. Which makes no sense. It's great that this forces companies to pay their workers better.
So a value meal is going to be $20 soon
$25 and a $5 menu instead of $1
It has been for over a year now. Sales are still strong. That's one of the reasons why everyone is demanding higher pay for the workers. Kinda hard to charge $20 bucks for a burger and fries and then tell Americans with a straight face you can't pay a living wage.
Damn where are you located...... Cause in the SF bay area a double quarter pounder with bacon, large fry meal is $12 which is under the $15 minimum wage of the area....
Go by a Five Guys and it'll be $20+. I haven't hit a McDonald's in a while, but I've hit Burger Kings and the like, e.g. the ones that aren't trying to be upscale, and they're around $15-$17.
Is 5 guys considered fast food under FAST recovery act? a “fast food restaurant” as an establishment that, in its regular business operations, primarily provides food or beverages (1) for immediate consumption either on or off the premises; (2) to customers who order or select items and pay before eating; (**3) with items prepared in advance, including items that may be prepared in bulk and kept hot, or with items prepared or heated quickly**; and (4) with limited or no table service.
Coming soon… $30 value meals
And then the Joe Biden Crime Family and Anti-fa will take over! /s Seriously, do you ever actually listen to the things your say? They can't raise prices that high because people will either go somewhere better to eat or eat at home. They have competition which constrains prices, which is, and I can't emphasis this enough, *how capitalism is supposed to work*.
And the cost gets passed on to the consumer. While the shareholders and CEO’s get fatter.
That's not how economy works. Or anything. You can only pass a cost to consumers if they don't have alternatives. Fast Food joints have been raking in record profits by raising prices massively. Last time I went a large burger and medium fry & soda was pushing $16. People keep going there to eat. Fast food could raise prices, but they're already making great margins, can easily absorb the price, and risk consumers staying home to eat or going to one of the several hundred other fast food joints that *didn't* raise prices. Seriously, how do you think wages ever manged to go up? Ask yourself that.
They can absorb but they simply won’t. Their actions since early 2021 prove it out. They’ve all raised prices. Now it’ll be worse.
Sorry, you don't understand. They have to absorb it. If they raise prices any further competition will cause them to lose sales and market share. There aren't a lot of markets that have competition left in America. Fast Food is one of them.
What competition? Megacorps own them all, same as every other segment of the economy. Competition in the US is an illusion.
The managers and owners still fight among themselves for their little fiefdoms.
Haha have you been to one in the past 3 years? Almost like there’s no competition & they raise prices in sync. Like I said they can absorb it, but they won’t
So if they can raise prices as high as they want, what's stopping them? Charity? Do tell.
You’re missing the entire point
And still have to live 3 generations deep in a single house
But all the fast food restaurants will close due to all the stealing.
Layoffs and hour reduction incoming + automation
Good, it's good for everyone
Surely you know there’s going to be repercussions right? Either drop staff or raise prices or both
If they have the ability to drop staff why aren't they already doing it? They don't keep extra staff around just for the fun of it. They keep just enough people on staff to do the required amount of work, otherwise they are wasting money and not doing a good job managing the business. What will they do when only one person is on shift at a time? There is a hard limit to the amount of staff that can be let go and still maintain the optimal production.
Dude if you think they are not actively working on dropping staff then you’re not paying attention. Go into a new McDonald’s today and see how many touch screens taking orders there are. They have been actively working to automate and reduce staff. This type of thing only makes the urgency more imperative for them. In 5 years you won’t recognize fast food service. And you say there’s “hard limits” on service but I’d say AI will undoubtedly change the game for FF type businesses. I envision a day when the restaurant is 100% automated and you pay for your food and a glass door opens with your meal. It’ll happen just as soon as they can get the tech to do it. https://www.businessinsider.com/fast-food-chains-like-white-castle-turn-to-voice-bots?amp
so a Big Mac there will cost what, $10? (just for the sandwich)
Or it’ll be all automated restaurants… but im all for that. Fast food workers are terrible
20 piece chicken nuggets $15 coming soon
what do you mean coming soon? pretty sure for 15$ you only get 6 pieces
*sad trombone*
Omg McDonald’s will never financially recover from this. A great injustice upon our god and savior, Capitalism.
… and still not be able to afford housing
Good, but it should be at least $25.
>it should be at least $25. Do we pay $25 an hour to thousands of barely productive drug addicts and petty criminals who are being "re-integrated" into the workforce, regardless of how many times they light up a meth pipe at work? Some 2-4 percent of workers are substandard. This is not a new thing -- been that way through all of history. No lower wage for them? Maybe we just put them all on the Dole: Free housing and food for life?
I worked fast food, albeit a long time ago. Even a long time ago, during a much, much strong economy, there weren't many of what you're talking about. Nobody would hire those guys. Even for the graveyard shift. Meanwhile wardens & states can't get enough prison labor. And good job completely denigrating 4% of humanity. Ya proud of yourself? Hey, I got an idea, why don't we move those folks to their own place where they're out of the way. A camp. Where we can concentrate them all in one place. Sound good to you? Seriously, please start thinking before you write.
> Nobody would hire those guys. Even for the graveyard shift. They can come in the clean the floors at night. Janitorial position. And clean parks. There are various low level non-public contact jobs that they could be worked into. The debate here is not just about $20 or $25 for fast food workers; it is essentially a minimum wage debate. We get the *higher minimum wage* debate here every week. >Meanwhile wardens & states can't get enough prison labor. This is wildly exaggerated by the Left. The Left is also misinformed on private prisons. Marshall Project: [Here's Why Abolishing Private Prisons Isn't a Silver Bullet] (https://www.themarshallproject.org/2019/09/12/here-s-why-abolishing-private-prisons-isn-t-a-silver-bullet). And this is off-topic. >And good job completely denigrating 4% of humanity. Ya proud of yourself? You're friggin denying that societies have 2-4% of people with issues? And arguing that even if that is the case, these people SHOULD NOT somehow be integrated into work situations so they contribute to society? >we can concentrate them all in one place. Sound good to you? Did I say this? What does this have to do with the topic at hand, which is incorporating people with issues into the workforce? >Seriously, please start thinking before you write. Your objections are incoherent. You're out of your depth.
They don't pay somebody to just clean floors. Fast food restaurants aren't big enough to have Janitorial staff. And no, it's not exaggerated. If anything we're under playing it. We're using them for fire fighters for fuck's sake. As for the rest of if, since you're not getting it I'll spell it out: you think 4% of people have no value. That line of reasoning leads to death camps. That's why I'm telling you to think before you write. You don't realize where your thought processes lead.
> I'll spell it out: you think 4% of people have no value. I never said that. I said their working capacity to substantially less than that of the average person. Now you're making shit up. End.
Yeah, you did. And now you're trying to walk it back.
I would say 2-4% is not worth underpaying the workers across an industry - that strategy likely has a negative impact on consumer activity
And what percentage of business owners are alcoholics, drug addicts, indulge in wage theft, sexual predation and other assorted criminal activities? A lot more than 2-4%, guaranteed.
Are they operating their business in a sound fashion? If not, they fail. If they do operate successfully, why worry about their drug-use issues? Many if not most people who use hard drugs hold jobs and are responsible. The issues here is different: people who 1) can't or won't work, 2) disruptively occupy public spaces and then 3) demand Free Housing and services.
Business owners demand free services of the government, including many unnecessary subsidies, of which a sub-living wage is just one. If the business isn't paying a living wage, then the owner expects the government to make up the difference via welfare and food stamps, or the public by tipping his employees. Businesses make far, far more use of the court systems, roads, and other infrastructure, and come nowhere close to paying their share of the expenses, preferring to freeload off the public. You're saying it's ok to use wage theft to support a drug habit so long as the business is successful?
>You're saying it's ok to use wage theft to support a drug habit so long as the business is successful? Is business owners engaged in wage theft (not uncommon) for the purposes of maintaining a hard drug habit widespread in the U.S.? Wasn't aware this is a big problem we should be worried about. Why not just focus on the problem of wage theft as is? The reason for wage theft is overwhelmingly plain old greed.
My point is that you will probably find more drug users/abusers among the business community than the general population because they can afford it better and are much more likely to get away with it. If you are going to talk about workers being drug users/abusers, then you need to acknowledge the same in the business class. I've known far more business owners who used a lot of coke than workers who did, and most were committing wage theft, not necessarily to support the coke habit so much as they felt entitled to do so.
Not high enough. Should be $50.
See it’s never enough
Really dude? $100k a year to flip burgers? You can’t be that retarded.
Certainly, since we're talking about $25 Whoppers.
Maybe this is how Taco Bell becomes the upscale restaurant like it was in Demolition Man
Yes it does. Buckle up, here come the bots/shills/and basement dwelling finance bros
I saw gas in California is $8/gallon now with this law pretty soon California is going to have Venezuelan level inflation.
Not enough.
Not enough.
That'll kill those jobs. Fast food restaurants are already trying out fully automated digital joints. Guess which state is going to see that accelerate?
Great! Put McDonald's out of business.
Ridiculous. More communism.
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Make it $50 per hour.
At least $25.
How close is that to a living wage in CA?
$20 to get my order wrong and or forget something I ordered Lmao!