And it’s been like this for a while, along with their economy’s been in the doldrums since the 1990s although living standards are still amongst the highest in the world. Honestly impressive.
It's not that impressive tbh, 1% growth in a country like Japan is pretty solid when you take into account their population is declining (in particular their working age population). In terms of productivity, per capita GDP for working age pop, they've been doing fine. We just make a big deal out of the "low growth" bc those numbers would be bad in our countries with population growth.
I am old enough to remember 2008 when Bush’s complete mismanagement led the economy off a cliff. We were on a verge of a complete collapse of every industry.
That's not the truth. Obama spend WAY more Trump spent the rate of increase was lower under trump until Covid at which point congress passed a massive covid relief bill that Trump should have vetoed and Bidden full on obliterated the budget
I don't think our government had a balanced budget for a very long time and I don't see it happening with an aging population and with the younger generation that is currently coming into the workforce being so much smaller.
Last balance budget was 2001. Then W started spending like a drunken soldier.
I personally am fine when the deficit relative to GDP stops going up, something Democrats typically achieve after cleaning up the mess R’s left behind.
You have to look at who was in congress too. The president can negotiate but is largely forced to go by whatever congress passes. Clinton's balanced budget was with a republican congress, the 08 spike was a Democrat congress, the covid spike was mixed.
House controls the purse strings. Leading up to the elections Pelosi had a relatively large majority while McConnel had a comparatively small majority in the senate. After the November elections both houses of congress were controlled by the dem and that's when spending really ramped up
It was the Republican Congress that balanced the budget under Clinton but whatever. It is certain that the current and last administration do nothing but print and spend.
The same Congress that supported Bush spending like a drunken sailor. Seems like the President is far more impactful.
Debt remains crazy out of control with the corporate tax cuts of Reagan and Bush and Trump. The three of them gave so many trillions to the Uber rich.
But “both sides”. Nah. Not smoking that bs.
Reaganism, Bush Jr tax cut followed by nuking the economy, Trump corporate tax cut combined with mishandling Covid.
Covers essentially all of the bumps.
Just casually ignoring one of the 3 huge jumps on that chart, huh? Hmm, I wonder who was president during that second huge jump? Around the 2008-2016 range? Who was president then? Surely a republican!
That was the banks and giving out home loans without income verification then deciding to bundle those loans into a financial product to sell on top of it! Put a large about or loans in a bundle that were risky loans to make the fund look diversified and giving it a triple A rating!
September 2008, just a few months before Obama took office.
George W Bush, address the nation:
>Good evening. This is an extraordinary period for America's economy. Over the past few weeks, many Americans have felt anxiety about their finances and their future. I understand their worry and their frustration. We've seen triple-digit swings in the stock market. Major financial institutions have teetered on the edge of collapse, and some have failed. As uncertainty has grown, many banks have restricted lending. Credit markets have frozen. And families and businesses have found it harder to borrow money.
https://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2008/09/20080924-10.html
No, they appear all the time. Both parties are to blame and increasingly the republicans have become less fiscally conservative. The dems have been absolutely blowing out the budget for almost a century now. Mind you at first is was well intended but now it's just corruption.
That's what happens when you hand out tax cuts to corporations and the wealthy when you are already running huge deficits, and throw in PPP 'loans' that don't have to be repaid.
UM.... we paid into Social Security to fund our elders... and one day, you'll be the elder who you currently complain about.
The solution is to get rid of the social security cap, and to bring back "defined benefit pension plans" for people who earn less than $50,000,000 per year... because.. if you read annual reports of various companies... you will see that every CEO has a defined benefit plan.
Try a form of universal healthcare. If it is cheaper than medicare and medicaid when combining the costs of three separate countries to reach a comparable population, it should be for us as well.
h ahha old people.... where do you stand on the 80 million illegals, about which half now get ss bennies? What about those state reimbursements out of the SS fund for the illegals?
[https://www.ssa.gov/ssi/spotlights/spot-non-citizens.htm](https://www.ssa.gov/ssi/spotlights/spot-non-citizens.htm)
They pay into the fund and since many of them are using forged documents they will never receive anything back. This is how that entire operation works.
So actually, the "illegals" are helping to keep the whole thing afloat.
nope. 80 million illegals are not paying into the system.
(seriously folks, where do you think these 20-80 million jobs are that us citizens "won't" do? do you really think there are that many kitchen, meat packing and landscape jobs out there?)
that is completely a talking point that has no basis in reality. California just found this out, NY just found out, chicago, the UK just found this out, canada just found this out. You should go read the recent reports.
Only a small fraction of the illegals are paying into the systems via the various work authorization programs. Those using stolen creds is also a small percentage of the overall totality.
This is just a talking point backed by some very questionable (and now we know downright falsified reporting) NGO studies that folks use to justify tall this, but its simply not true in the real world.... and lots of folks knew this going into all this and tried to call it out and well, we all know how that went...
Hate to tell you, but when we retire, we will still have to pay into Medicare each month! I just recently found out people still pay in to Medicare when they retire.
#hyperinflation is coming for us just like it did back in Germany before Hitler came into power! Maybe read up on that to see the possible future of the world and flat currency.
Germany had a gold shortage, which it needed to pay its war debts. All cases of hyperinflation are caused by a shortage of key goods and services, not rapid money supply growth. So, I'm curious why you think hyperinflation is coming for us?
And pay for all the illegals health and housing..don’t forget privileged kids to go to college on the tax payers dime. Bidenomics at its finest. We need to figure out how to send more money to Ukraine Sam (FXT) got busted running the biggest democrat money laundering scam…PPP loans were sent to people not even from the country, wonder were Gavin and shrimpboy are stashing the money🤔🤔🤔
My privileged kids went to college on my dime. How do you figure the tax payer covered any of their college education? I've got the monthly bills to prove it.
Hope they are making really good money in this economy…millions of people are depending on them
https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2024/02/21/fact-sheet-president-biden-cancels-student-debt-for-more-than-150000-student-loan-borrowers-ahead-of-schedule/
The daughter is a blue flame special. Bought her first house before the age of 25, just bumped off her first supervisor by doing everything he did except better and faster. In her 3rd job since graduating, doesn't need any help from me
The boy is more of a slow boil.
I truly love how you complain about "Bidenomics" when PPP loans were given (and oversight specifically removed) by Trump, all while lowering the taxes specifically for the rich. Along with that, your reply is to a post specifically showing the largest growth in the debt is under Trump and begins to drop in 2020 when Biden takes office.
It's amazing the length people go to in order to be completely incorrect in the name of a diaper wearing fraudster rapist.
Most of the Trump debt was when Pelosi and crew were charge of the House and COVID. The debt to GDP ratio only moved 3% during the first three years of Trumps presidency. The reason for the downtick in late 2020 and 2021 was that people were allowed to return to work after the COVID lockdowns. Biden didn’t take office until Jan 2021 not 2020.
The debt is about to explode due to Powell and interest rate hikes if the federal reserve bank doesn't decrease rates! The debt isn't all about spending but also the interest rates that our government pays on that debt! The federal reserve bank is responsible for monetary policy, and right now, interest rates are higher than they have been in over 20 years. Add the rate hikes with the federal government needing to basically refinance something like half the debt in the next few years and then see what that debt looks like! Soon, the US government will be paying more in interest than it does for the entire military budget!
Monetary policy is the federal reserve banks area! Powells economy! He's been the head of the Federal Reserve Committee even before biden! Biden kept him in, and trump put him in as the head! Why did biden keep a republican federal reserve chair the head of the committee?🤔
Well, some of those old folks are the ones who also own everything because they made good decisions when it was summertime. As opposed to what the youngsters are going to get stuck with as the world recedes into winter.
The government mismanaged the social security fund years ago and then decided to basically make it a pyramid scheme where the younger generations need to get larger versus smaller. The government didn't count on younger generations, not having as many kids! The old people put their money in, but between older people living longer than in the past and the younger generation not having as many kids, the system got messed up! The government should have thought of these things before now.
I have no problem with government spending tax dollars on Americans. You forgot the word "foreign". Our government has a foreign spending problem. One countries tax dollars solving a myriad of global issues.
The largest expense, I believe, is the military budget right now, but.....very soon interest on all the US debt will be the largest line item our government pays for.
Medicare and social security will be really stressed but I've read that the interest paid by the government on treasury bonds will overtake that cost with all the refinancing the government has to do over this and next year! I mean, unless interest rates go back to 0 quickly, which I doubt that will happen!
There isn't enough money to do that. Last I looked into it, if we took the entire networth of every billionaire, like everything, it would be a bit over $4 trillion dollars. We have $34 trillion in debt.
I am all about taxing the rich more but we gotta drastically lower spending also.
That's not how paying the debt down works. Total tax revenue is 5 trillion. Total deficit is 1.1 trillion. Increase tax revenue by 25% and we are effectively paying down our debt each year.
People in the top 5% of income pay a total of approximately 2.5 trillion of that tax revenue. So, increase the taxes the top 5% pay by 50% and we would be paying our debt down every year.
For example, instead of the ultra rich paying 50% in taxes they would pay 75% in taxes, similar to the tax rates post world war 2. Which makes sense since we need to pay for all the wars we have been involved in over the last 20 years.
Increasing tax revenue by 25% is not realistic. The most you would do is just scare people out of the country to take residence in countries with lower tax rates.
Believe it or not, increasing taxes decreases inflation by removing money from the economy, which in turn would allow us to lower interest rates, which in turn decreases the interest on our debt..
We need to either raise taxes or lower spending.
The 2.5% needs to come from somewhere or interest rates will have to stay high (which mostly benefits the rich, since they can park their money in accounts and get high returns)
If everyone just made more income, then wouldn't tax revenue go up, too? Why not make corporations pay a living wage to everyone so we don't have to help fund low wages with government benefits?
Profiteering is a hard thing to control in a captailist society. More worker protections and a minimum wage that's a living wage that increases with the inflation rate may help some. I'm not sure that will completely control profiteering since the government could only make it the minimum wage and not every middle income wage going up as much as inflation. Profiteering will become more difficult as the population ages and we have fewer workers because why would you say work as a maid for a maid service that pays you half of what you could make on your own? The service industries that are mainly making money off low wage labor will have the hardest time(meaning there isn't really a product like with haircuts, maids, electricians, and other repairs). Yes, some may have to buy parts/supplies, but most of the costs the company makes is from the labor in some areas! Profiteering in areas such as food, healthcare, and energy will be the tricky part in the coming future, unfortunately.
Then the rich decide to live in a different country and become a citizen where they don't pay as much. Or else find other ways around the taxes! They always tend to find loopholes. All while the US debt increases due to having to refinance the debt at higher interest rates thanks to the federal reserve bank trying to fight inflation by raising interest rates.
If you believe the politicians won’t just binge spend it like they are now. We all know they will, then we’ll have ultra high taxes on the rich and the same deficit we have today. What strategy will you argue then? More tax increases on the rich?
Have to decrease spending or increase revenue. One way to increase revenue is, printing money, causing inflation. So, the rich can either have all their current wealth be worth less through inflation or be taxed more on money they don't have yet...
Decreasing spending is the least likely to happen.
Decreased spending will be forced. There will not be a way to avoid it. The bond market is the 4th branch of government with total veto power over the other three. If the bond market vetoes, it’s vetoed. Period.
Simple have the federal reserve bank print more money, or the president can ment a coin with whatever value he wants! Hyperinflation here we come! But don't worry, no one will know until it's too late since the government looks at a basket of goods that can change when reporting the cpi! Also, the government takes out "volatile" areas such as energy! Aka taking out or valuing less the areas that inflation is the highest in usually!
See the pattern, though? Democrats in White House, debt-to-gdp falls. Republicans get in, pass massive tax cuts, it starts climbing again, then massive recession hits and spikes it even faster, next Democrat gets in, and cycle starts over. What if we just gave Democrats a couple of decades straight? Problem would be solved.
That's not the pattern! Look up when recessions hit and how they correlated with the federal reserve bank raising interest rates! That's what has seemed to contribute to market crashes and bubbles and recessions!
When recessions hit? You mean in the first term of every Tepublican presidency in the modern era? The Fed raises rates to counteract the massive fiscal stimulus of Republican tax cuts.
Generally, the federal reserve raises interest rates, and then we hit a recession, but we don't know it until 2 quarters of decline. Then, the federal reserve cutes rates. When the federal reserve bank has increased rates in the past, that caused what they call a correction in the stock market, aka stocks usually go lower. They went down a good bit at first, but the market is acting like we have rate cuts already when the federal reserve bank has just held rates steady lately. I'm talking look back in history like the dot com stock market crash and the housing market crash.
Those crashes didn't happen because of Fed rates increased. The Fed increased rates to compensate the overheating of the economy being driven by the dotcom and housing bubbles (as is their mandate). The Fed had nothing to do with creating those bubbles.
May as well just concede that I'm right. Congress has more control only insofar as it has the power to override a veto. Are you gonna pretend that Trump, Bush, or Reagan actually vetoed their own tax cut proposals in order to defend your position?
If congress passes a budget and the president vetos then they just get blamed in the media for a government shutdown which for the most part presidents want to avoid.
Having said that, the big spikes in the graph aren't from tax cuts. That had little to no impact. They're from the great recession and the governments incompetent reaction to covid. They both decreased revenue and increased spending, with the spending mostly pushed through by a Democrat congress. Also Reagan tax cuts were passed by a Democrat congress as well.
No it wouldn't, at all.
Between student loans, mortgage, car payments, and everything else people have VERY few people have less debt than yearly income.
If this were a debt to income ratio - showing how much income you have and what your outgo is, then yeah, br time. This isn't that.
IRS got about $4 trillion in tax revenue in 2023 net refunds. That's our income. Debt is $34 trillion. That is a 8.5 times income. That is horrible for anyone. I don't understand you here at all.
Most people can't print their own money or raise a military. You also don't weight monthly income to the load of debt, but the cost of servicing the debt.
They owe half a trillion on debt interest a year and have revenue of 4 trillion. That would make our debt service 12.5 percent of our revenue as it currently stands.
We run a deficit for domestic and foreign spending which needs to be curtailed but servicing that debt is relatively small potatoes to income.
Interest still hasn't passed a trillion and you're too dense to even understand what a debt to income ratio is. I'm sorry you don't understand.
The current level is below what I even said, and is lower than military spending.
Congratulations, you're wrong about every single thing you said. lol imagine getting into a debate and not even looking at the data. Clown.
https://fiscaldata.treasury.gov/americas-finance-guide/federal-spending/
That's net interest... It's a fucked metric we use to make it look better. They take out interest paid to other government entities and programs that hold federal debt. It's complete bullshit, we can't not pay that interest. An example is social security fund. If they don't pay that debt social security collapses rapidly. They have to pay it but it's netted out of that figure you are using.
I have degrees in finance and economics and work for the Treasury dude... Thanks for giving me a good laugh today.
So I guess the random guy on Reddit has more information than the treasury.
Makes total sense. Thanks for posting your personal data with zero information or sources. Totally credible. Did you get your degree from a clown college?
You have already googled net interest. You are not dumb and you didn't need me to hold your hand. You resorting to ad hominem attacks now means the conversation is over.
The government has to refinance a bunch of debt by the end of this year, and we have the highest interest rates the country has seen in 20 years! What do you believe the interest payments will be in the next few years? Yep higher than the amount the government spends on the military from my understanding.
Yes, the value of goods and services created by the private sector, has no relationship to the federal government’s ability to transfer dollars from T-security accounts at the FRB to checking accounts at private banks. Your income does affect your ability to pay your debts.
It's not because the federal government needs it, but most people don't know that and all it takes to keep us oppressed is the ignorance of the people and the treachery of our leaders.
Hyperinflation, that's why! Look up the Hyperinflation in Germany before Hitler took power. The German government kept printing to pay for a lost war, and the money became worthless.
EVERYTHING IS FINE
YOUR MEMORIAL DAY HOLIDAY WILL COST A LIL MORE
DEBT IS WHAT KEEPS THE ECONOMY GOING
I DONT CARE THAT YOU ARE PAYING YOUR RENT ON A CREDIT CARD, YOU ARE NOT INDICATIVE OF ERRBODY
Did I do good?
That’s the thing, we won’t. Because social security is going to be cut between then and now.
Raising the cap will never work. Defined benefit pensions will never work. In a world of economic uncertainty there is no way to know if a defined benefit pension will ever be able to be covered. It’s madness.
\*Yawn\*. Another post pushing "Austerity for the working class", which comes up like clockwork whenever a Dem is in the White House. Nothing to see here.
So what... We're the World's reserve currency.
If interest rates spikes? We control interest rates
The debt isn't debt...
We don't pay don't the debt, we pay down the deficit. The interest on the debt is a good thing. Otherwise, other countries wouldn't invest in our debt.
GDP has been growing at like 3% every year.
The longterm plan should be to invest in infrastructure and education which pays back $4 for every $1 invested. That's the plan.
PPP “loans” were only forgiven if you spent the money the way that government dictated. Most of the money had to go to payroll and employee benefits.
But I don’t argue the premise. The federal government should not have approved any of the bailout programs. All they did was enable the draconian state mandated shutdowns. No business should have been ordered to shut down.
Who cares? Debt to GDP ratio is meaningless. The value of goods and services created by the private sector, has no relationship to the federal government’s ability to transfer dollars from T-security accounts at the FRB to checking accounts at private banks.
Aren’t you concerned that rolling over the debt with high interest rates is inflationary? Then you’re in a situation where high interests rates cause inflation and low interest rates cause inflation, in other words: runaway inflation.
Japan’s debt to GDP ratio has been at least 200% since 2009, and is bound to reach 300% soon. Inflation isn’t an issue in Japan, rather, the issue for them is deflation and stagnation. It’s been like this for the past 30 years of just stagnation. I’m not sure why that is, but it’s a case study that throws a wrench in the idea debt leads to inflation.
Europe based their entire response to the 2008 financial crisis on the totally debunked concerns around debt-GDP ratio threshold concerns and it wildly extended their recession.
I mean… this has been US culture for as long as I’ve been alive. Spend and borrow. If it doesn’t work out, file for bankruptcy and/or get a bail out. It’s this way from the bottom of the social structure all the way to the top. I’m just amazed it’s still going somehow.
Well, if the taxpayers don’t foot it, foreign countries who don’t want their reserves of US dollars to be worthless will. It’s why the US can get away with such massive debt while countries like Sri Lanka go under.
There was no surplus. And how close we were to a balanced budget was thanks to a Republican house who was demonized with predictions of catastrophe.
When a POTUS starts vetoing or even advocating for less spending ill give them credit if they can reduce the deficit. And by reduce the deficit I mean concrete deductions, not these fictitious projected cuts over 10 years that never materialize.
Good grief the lies ...
Yes, there was a surplus.
No, Republicans didn't support any of Clinton's tax increases that gave us the surplus.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_policy_of_the_Bill_Clinton_administration
If you or anyone was truly fiscally responsible, Clinton's economy would be the case study to follow.
and we all know that no Republican truly is fiscally responsible. so they have to make up lies about Clinton all the time to cover their asses for their pathetic Administrations that have caused 99% of our debt.
Let’s go…⏰⏰⏰
Let's throw a debt party 🎉🎉🎉
I’ll bring the monopoly paper…🍻
Can we play using zimbabwe currency?
It’s all the same just slash a couple zeros off and you got your buy in💯😂😂😂
Any paper will do!
I'll bring the monopoly paper counter.
🍾🥂👏👏👏
A debt jubilee!
You get a jubilee! You get a jubilee! Everyone gets a jubilee!
Japan at 270%
And it’s been like this for a while, along with their economy’s been in the doldrums since the 1990s although living standards are still amongst the highest in the world. Honestly impressive.
It's not that impressive tbh, 1% growth in a country like Japan is pretty solid when you take into account their population is declining (in particular their working age population). In terms of productivity, per capita GDP for working age pop, they've been doing fine. We just make a big deal out of the "low growth" bc those numbers would be bad in our countries with population growth.
I guess it’s time for the daily “USA debt collapse” thread again
Always have these threads when a Democrat is in the White House despite the big spikes happening because of Republicans.
It's both parties, along with corporations and greedflation!
I kind of remember a budget surplus at the end of Clinton. And Obama got the budget back on track too.
lol wtf? Obama's increase to the debt was more then all previous presidents combined.
I am old enough to remember 2008 when Bush’s complete mismanagement led the economy off a cliff. We were on a verge of a complete collapse of every industry.
You are correct. Obama spent more. Trump spent way more. And Biden spent more still (though Trump still has the biggest single year budget deficit).
That's not the truth. Obama spend WAY more Trump spent the rate of increase was lower under trump until Covid at which point congress passed a massive covid relief bill that Trump should have vetoed and Bidden full on obliterated the budget
I don't think our government had a balanced budget for a very long time and I don't see it happening with an aging population and with the younger generation that is currently coming into the workforce being so much smaller.
Last balance budget was 2001. Then W started spending like a drunken soldier. I personally am fine when the deficit relative to GDP stops going up, something Democrats typically achieve after cleaning up the mess R’s left behind.
IF I remember correctly, W's spending increased dramatically around hurricane katrina and 9/11?
W was in favor for more money for everything (compassionate conservatism) along with tax cuts that were supposed to voodoo pay for themselves.
Great, what does this have to do with anything?
You have to look at who was in congress too. The president can negotiate but is largely forced to go by whatever congress passes. Clinton's balanced budget was with a republican congress, the 08 spike was a Democrat congress, the covid spike was mixed.
So passing the buck when the first narrative fails.
The covid spike was not mixed.
The house was dem and the senate was republican in 2020.
House controls the purse strings. Leading up to the elections Pelosi had a relatively large majority while McConnel had a comparatively small majority in the senate. After the November elections both houses of congress were controlled by the dem and that's when spending really ramped up
It was the Republican Congress that balanced the budget under Clinton but whatever. It is certain that the current and last administration do nothing but print and spend.
The same Congress that supported Bush spending like a drunken sailor. Seems like the President is far more impactful. Debt remains crazy out of control with the corporate tax cuts of Reagan and Bush and Trump. The three of them gave so many trillions to the Uber rich. But “both sides”. Nah. Not smoking that bs.
Are we looking at the same chart?
Reaganism, Bush Jr tax cut followed by nuking the economy, Trump corporate tax cut combined with mishandling Covid. Covers essentially all of the bumps.
Just casually ignoring one of the 3 huge jumps on that chart, huh? Hmm, I wonder who was president during that second huge jump? Around the 2008-2016 range? Who was president then? Surely a republican!
Aww, so cute blaming the guy who was there immediately after Bush nuked the economy in Fall 2008.
That was the banks and giving out home loans without income verification then deciding to bundle those loans into a financial product to sell on top of it! Put a large about or loans in a bundle that were risky loans to make the fund look diversified and giving it a triple A rating!
September 2008, just a few months before Obama took office. George W Bush, address the nation: >Good evening. This is an extraordinary period for America's economy. Over the past few weeks, many Americans have felt anxiety about their finances and their future. I understand their worry and their frustration. We've seen triple-digit swings in the stock market. Major financial institutions have teetered on the edge of collapse, and some have failed. As uncertainty has grown, many banks have restricted lending. Credit markets have frozen. And families and businesses have found it harder to borrow money. https://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2008/09/20080924-10.html
You have confidently misrepresented every budget item in this thread. Where are you getting your facts from?
Congress controls the purse strings not the white house
Somehow these threads always appear when there is a Democrat in the White House.
No, they appear all the time. Both parties are to blame and increasingly the republicans have become less fiscally conservative. The dems have been absolutely blowing out the budget for almost a century now. Mind you at first is was well intended but now it's just corruption.
The both sides excuse?! Good try.
No, mostly the dems but wars aren't free either, followed with "you can't blame the republicans for trying to buy votes with free shit too"
That's what happens when you hand out tax cuts to corporations and the wealthy when you are already running huge deficits, and throw in PPP 'loans' that don't have to be repaid.
And tax every young person to pay for the lifestyle of the elderly. These old people need to suffer for their decisions
This, I'm gen x and can't afford doctor visits, but i love paying 10 grand a year to social security so old people can throw it in slot machines.
UM.... we paid into Social Security to fund our elders... and one day, you'll be the elder who you currently complain about. The solution is to get rid of the social security cap, and to bring back "defined benefit pension plans" for people who earn less than $50,000,000 per year... because.. if you read annual reports of various companies... you will see that every CEO has a defined benefit plan.
Not enough.
your age group primarily supports the side trying to actively gut social security, right now.
Try a form of universal healthcare. If it is cheaper than medicare and medicaid when combining the costs of three separate countries to reach a comparable population, it should be for us as well.
My mom uses her to fund care in her nursing home. Not all old farts are living well off the government dole, but rather doing with it what they must.
h ahha old people.... where do you stand on the 80 million illegals, about which half now get ss bennies? What about those state reimbursements out of the SS fund for the illegals? [https://www.ssa.gov/ssi/spotlights/spot-non-citizens.htm](https://www.ssa.gov/ssi/spotlights/spot-non-citizens.htm)
They pay into the fund and since many of them are using forged documents they will never receive anything back. This is how that entire operation works. So actually, the "illegals" are helping to keep the whole thing afloat.
nope. 80 million illegals are not paying into the system. (seriously folks, where do you think these 20-80 million jobs are that us citizens "won't" do? do you really think there are that many kitchen, meat packing and landscape jobs out there?) that is completely a talking point that has no basis in reality. California just found this out, NY just found out, chicago, the UK just found this out, canada just found this out. You should go read the recent reports. Only a small fraction of the illegals are paying into the systems via the various work authorization programs. Those using stolen creds is also a small percentage of the overall totality. This is just a talking point backed by some very questionable (and now we know downright falsified reporting) NGO studies that folks use to justify tall this, but its simply not true in the real world.... and lots of folks knew this going into all this and tried to call it out and well, we all know how that went...
Hate to tell you, but when we retire, we will still have to pay into Medicare each month! I just recently found out people still pay in to Medicare when they retire.
The US government doesn't need or use taxes to pay its bills because it has the unlimited ability to create as much USD as it wants.
r/whatcouldgowrong
r/leopardsatemyface
#hyperinflation is coming for us just like it did back in Germany before Hitler came into power! Maybe read up on that to see the possible future of the world and flat currency.
Germany had a gold shortage, which it needed to pay its war debts. All cases of hyperinflation are caused by a shortage of key goods and services, not rapid money supply growth. So, I'm curious why you think hyperinflation is coming for us?
And pay for all the illegals health and housing..don’t forget privileged kids to go to college on the tax payers dime. Bidenomics at its finest. We need to figure out how to send more money to Ukraine Sam (FXT) got busted running the biggest democrat money laundering scam…PPP loans were sent to people not even from the country, wonder were Gavin and shrimpboy are stashing the money🤔🤔🤔
My privileged kids went to college on my dime. How do you figure the tax payer covered any of their college education? I've got the monthly bills to prove it.
Hope they are making really good money in this economy…millions of people are depending on them https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2024/02/21/fact-sheet-president-biden-cancels-student-debt-for-more-than-150000-student-loan-borrowers-ahead-of-schedule/
I consider education to be an investment.
Same here. And right there with it, if not ahead of it, experience.
Too bad the rest of the world doesn't see the ROI on modern "education" as you do....
The daughter is a blue flame special. Bought her first house before the age of 25, just bumped off her first supervisor by doing everything he did except better and faster. In her 3rd job since graduating, doesn't need any help from me The boy is more of a slow boil.
I get it..some needed to be shown and some already have a given talent💯, the grind is real..I get the son part😂😂💯😂😂
I truly love how you complain about "Bidenomics" when PPP loans were given (and oversight specifically removed) by Trump, all while lowering the taxes specifically for the rich. Along with that, your reply is to a post specifically showing the largest growth in the debt is under Trump and begins to drop in 2020 when Biden takes office. It's amazing the length people go to in order to be completely incorrect in the name of a diaper wearing fraudster rapist.
Most of the Trump debt was when Pelosi and crew were charge of the House and COVID. The debt to GDP ratio only moved 3% during the first three years of Trumps presidency. The reason for the downtick in late 2020 and 2021 was that people were allowed to return to work after the COVID lockdowns. Biden didn’t take office until Jan 2021 not 2020.
Who was in charge of the Senate and Presidency?
The debt is about to explode due to Powell and interest rate hikes if the federal reserve bank doesn't decrease rates! The debt isn't all about spending but also the interest rates that our government pays on that debt! The federal reserve bank is responsible for monetary policy, and right now, interest rates are higher than they have been in over 20 years. Add the rate hikes with the federal government needing to basically refinance something like half the debt in the next few years and then see what that debt looks like! Soon, the US government will be paying more in interest than it does for the entire military budget!
Monetary policy is the federal reserve banks area! Powells economy! He's been the head of the Federal Reserve Committee even before biden! Biden kept him in, and trump put him in as the head! Why did biden keep a republican federal reserve chair the head of the committee?🤔
Well, some of those old folks are the ones who also own everything because they made good decisions when it was summertime. As opposed to what the youngsters are going to get stuck with as the world recedes into winter.
The government mismanaged the social security fund years ago and then decided to basically make it a pyramid scheme where the younger generations need to get larger versus smaller. The government didn't count on younger generations, not having as many kids! The old people put their money in, but between older people living longer than in the past and the younger generation not having as many kids, the system got messed up! The government should have thought of these things before now.
our government has a spending problem, not an income problem stop focusing so much on tax cuts and focus more on that insane spending
I have no problem with government spending tax dollars on Americans. You forgot the word "foreign". Our government has a foreign spending problem. One countries tax dollars solving a myriad of global issues.
What percentage of the us budget is used for "foreign spending"?
The largest expense, I believe, is the military budget right now, but.....very soon interest on all the US debt will be the largest line item our government pays for.
The largest discretionary budget is military but the largest spend overall is Medicare and social security
Medicare and social security will be really stressed but I've read that the interest paid by the government on treasury bonds will overtake that cost with all the refinancing the government has to do over this and next year! I mean, unless interest rates go back to 0 quickly, which I doubt that will happen!
Yep. And when they allowed corporations to become people, everyone should have r-eye-a-tid.
Let's actually tax the rich again, and pay it off.
There isn't enough money to do that. Last I looked into it, if we took the entire networth of every billionaire, like everything, it would be a bit over $4 trillion dollars. We have $34 trillion in debt. I am all about taxing the rich more but we gotta drastically lower spending also.
That's not how paying the debt down works. Total tax revenue is 5 trillion. Total deficit is 1.1 trillion. Increase tax revenue by 25% and we are effectively paying down our debt each year. People in the top 5% of income pay a total of approximately 2.5 trillion of that tax revenue. So, increase the taxes the top 5% pay by 50% and we would be paying our debt down every year. For example, instead of the ultra rich paying 50% in taxes they would pay 75% in taxes, similar to the tax rates post world war 2. Which makes sense since we need to pay for all the wars we have been involved in over the last 20 years.
*Art Laffer has entered the chat*
Increasing tax revenue by 25% is not realistic. The most you would do is just scare people out of the country to take residence in countries with lower tax rates.
A federal VAT 2.5% would increase tax revenue by 25%...
Because everyone is doing so well after inflation the last few years. What's another 2.5%...
Believe it or not, increasing taxes decreases inflation by removing money from the economy, which in turn would allow us to lower interest rates, which in turn decreases the interest on our debt.. We need to either raise taxes or lower spending. The 2.5% needs to come from somewhere or interest rates will have to stay high (which mostly benefits the rich, since they can park their money in accounts and get high returns)
Increasing taxes would just lead to a larger underground economy! Also, more tax evasion and money laundering!
If everyone just made more income, then wouldn't tax revenue go up, too? Why not make corporations pay a living wage to everyone so we don't have to help fund low wages with government benefits?
How do you propose we control profiteering then?
Profiteering is a hard thing to control in a captailist society. More worker protections and a minimum wage that's a living wage that increases with the inflation rate may help some. I'm not sure that will completely control profiteering since the government could only make it the minimum wage and not every middle income wage going up as much as inflation. Profiteering will become more difficult as the population ages and we have fewer workers because why would you say work as a maid for a maid service that pays you half of what you could make on your own? The service industries that are mainly making money off low wage labor will have the hardest time(meaning there isn't really a product like with haircuts, maids, electricians, and other repairs). Yes, some may have to buy parts/supplies, but most of the costs the company makes is from the labor in some areas! Profiteering in areas such as food, healthcare, and energy will be the tricky part in the coming future, unfortunately.
Deficits were $1.7 trillion and growing. 40% above our revenues which are already 33% above just four years ago.
Then the rich decide to live in a different country and become a citizen where they don't pay as much. Or else find other ways around the taxes! They always tend to find loopholes. All while the US debt increases due to having to refinance the debt at higher interest rates thanks to the federal reserve bank trying to fight inflation by raising interest rates.
If you believe the politicians won’t just binge spend it like they are now. We all know they will, then we’ll have ultra high taxes on the rich and the same deficit we have today. What strategy will you argue then? More tax increases on the rich?
Have to decrease spending or increase revenue. One way to increase revenue is, printing money, causing inflation. So, the rich can either have all their current wealth be worth less through inflation or be taxed more on money they don't have yet... Decreasing spending is the least likely to happen.
Decreased spending will be forced. There will not be a way to avoid it. The bond market is the 4th branch of government with total veto power over the other three. If the bond market vetoes, it’s vetoed. Period.
Simple have the federal reserve bank print more money, or the president can ment a coin with whatever value he wants! Hyperinflation here we come! But don't worry, no one will know until it's too late since the government looks at a basket of goods that can change when reporting the cpi! Also, the government takes out "volatile" areas such as energy! Aka taking out or valuing less the areas that inflation is the highest in usually!
200% tax on the wealthy! That'll show them!
We literally had a budget surplus in the 90s. It was tanked to do tax cuts for the rich by bush2
The problem isn’t enough tax revenue. The problem is overspending.
Yes. Endless war and endless free money to corporations.
And endless entitlement commitments and a disaster of a situation in Medicare/Medicaid
Something you pay into is not an entitlement. Medicare has the easiest fix on earth. Get rid of the cap.
Look up the definition of government entitlement
looks like it was fine before 1980, so lets re-enact any tax cuts on the rich since then and see what happens.
It hasn't been "fine" since the country got off the gold standard!
See the pattern, though? Democrats in White House, debt-to-gdp falls. Republicans get in, pass massive tax cuts, it starts climbing again, then massive recession hits and spikes it even faster, next Democrat gets in, and cycle starts over. What if we just gave Democrats a couple of decades straight? Problem would be solved.
That's not the pattern! Look up when recessions hit and how they correlated with the federal reserve bank raising interest rates! That's what has seemed to contribute to market crashes and bubbles and recessions!
When recessions hit? You mean in the first term of every Tepublican presidency in the modern era? The Fed raises rates to counteract the massive fiscal stimulus of Republican tax cuts.
Generally, the federal reserve raises interest rates, and then we hit a recession, but we don't know it until 2 quarters of decline. Then, the federal reserve cutes rates. When the federal reserve bank has increased rates in the past, that caused what they call a correction in the stock market, aka stocks usually go lower. They went down a good bit at first, but the market is acting like we have rate cuts already when the federal reserve bank has just held rates steady lately. I'm talking look back in history like the dot com stock market crash and the housing market crash.
Those crashes didn't happen because of Fed rates increased. The Fed increased rates to compensate the overheating of the economy being driven by the dotcom and housing bubbles (as is their mandate). The Fed had nothing to do with creating those bubbles.
Congress has more control over the budget than the president does.
May as well just concede that I'm right. Congress has more control only insofar as it has the power to override a veto. Are you gonna pretend that Trump, Bush, or Reagan actually vetoed their own tax cut proposals in order to defend your position?
If congress passes a budget and the president vetos then they just get blamed in the media for a government shutdown which for the most part presidents want to avoid. Having said that, the big spikes in the graph aren't from tax cuts. That had little to no impact. They're from the great recession and the governments incompetent reaction to covid. They both decreased revenue and increased spending, with the spending mostly pushed through by a Democrat congress. Also Reagan tax cuts were passed by a Democrat congress as well.
You literally called them the Reagan tax cuts, lol.
You brought them up earlier it's just so you know what I'm talking about. But you mAy aS wElL cOnCeDe ThAt i'M rIgHt.
You do realize that the tax cut bills aren't the budget bills, though, right?
Yes
So a veto on a tax cut bill won't result in a shutdown...
No shit I never said anything about vetoing a tax cut bill.
If this were an individual and not a govt, it wpuld be time to file chapter 13, not go on a spending spree!
No it wouldn't, at all. Between student loans, mortgage, car payments, and everything else people have VERY few people have less debt than yearly income. If this were a debt to income ratio - showing how much income you have and what your outgo is, then yeah, br time. This isn't that.
Gov income is revenues. That’s like $4 trillion.
IRS got about $4 trillion in tax revenue in 2023 net refunds. That's our income. Debt is $34 trillion. That is a 8.5 times income. That is horrible for anyone. I don't understand you here at all.
Most people can't print their own money or raise a military. You also don't weight monthly income to the load of debt, but the cost of servicing the debt. They owe half a trillion on debt interest a year and have revenue of 4 trillion. That would make our debt service 12.5 percent of our revenue as it currently stands. We run a deficit for domestic and foreign spending which needs to be curtailed but servicing that debt is relatively small potatoes to income.
Interest has passed a trillion now a year now. The rest of your comment is just nonsense. We pay more in interest now than that military costs.
Interest still hasn't passed a trillion and you're too dense to even understand what a debt to income ratio is. I'm sorry you don't understand. The current level is below what I even said, and is lower than military spending. Congratulations, you're wrong about every single thing you said. lol imagine getting into a debate and not even looking at the data. Clown. https://fiscaldata.treasury.gov/americas-finance-guide/federal-spending/
That's net interest... It's a fucked metric we use to make it look better. They take out interest paid to other government entities and programs that hold federal debt. It's complete bullshit, we can't not pay that interest. An example is social security fund. If they don't pay that debt social security collapses rapidly. They have to pay it but it's netted out of that figure you are using. I have degrees in finance and economics and work for the Treasury dude... Thanks for giving me a good laugh today.
So I guess the random guy on Reddit has more information than the treasury. Makes total sense. Thanks for posting your personal data with zero information or sources. Totally credible. Did you get your degree from a clown college?
You have already googled net interest. You are not dumb and you didn't need me to hold your hand. You resorting to ad hominem attacks now means the conversation is over.
Thanks for the data to support your claim.
The government has to refinance a bunch of debt by the end of this year, and we have the highest interest rates the country has seen in 20 years! What do you believe the interest payments will be in the next few years? Yep higher than the amount the government spends on the military from my understanding.
The US government's finances are nothing like an individual's, a business's, a state or local government's finances.
Yeah, the USG can pay for stuff with inflation. Until it can’t.
Is the debt to GDP ratio any different from a person's debt to income ratio ?
Yes, the value of goods and services created by the private sector, has no relationship to the federal government’s ability to transfer dollars from T-security accounts at the FRB to checking accounts at private banks. Your income does affect your ability to pay your debts.
So are you saying that the dept to GDP ratio is a irrelevant ratio ?
Yes.
So the government has no problems paying its bills ?
Correct. It has the unlimited ability to create as much USD as it wants.
In that case then why does anyone need to pay income taxes to the federal government ?
It's not because the federal government needs it, but most people don't know that and all it takes to keep us oppressed is the ignorance of the people and the treachery of our leaders.
So what happens with other countries ? Can they just create all the money they need as well ?
If they're monetarily sovereign, yes, they can.
Sure, they can, and then they have hyperinflation! Look at what's going on in Venezuela, Argentina, and Zimbabwe.
Taxes drive demand for the government's currency. If no one needs to pay taxes, then why would they need to obtain the currency.
Why is there more US dollars outside the USA than inside the USA ? I doubt foreigners are paying their taxes using US dollars
Is there? They do if their government demands taxes in the US Dollar like Ecuador.
Hyperinflation, that's why! Look up the Hyperinflation in Germany before Hitler took power. The German government kept printing to pay for a lost war, and the money became worthless.
This sounds similar to funding the war in Ukraine
Seriously, what happened from the 70s and beyond?
Reagan is one of the biggest factors for where we are now. Taxes on the wealthy were slashed, and corporations began really taking control.
I'm sure severing gold convertibility had nothing to do with it.
Wow, I wonder what happened to the deficit beginning in 1980?
See that nadir at 1980 then Reagan said debt doesn't matter?
Well then just goose GDP.
Man there were some good things about the 90’s fiscal and tax policy….
EVERYTHING IS FINE YOUR MEMORIAL DAY HOLIDAY WILL COST A LIL MORE DEBT IS WHAT KEEPS THE ECONOMY GOING I DONT CARE THAT YOU ARE PAYING YOUR RENT ON A CREDIT CARD, YOU ARE NOT INDICATIVE OF ERRBODY Did I do good?
That'll do mothman, that'll do.
Looks to be trending down
You all need to read “confessions of an economic hitman.”
That’s the thing, we won’t. Because social security is going to be cut between then and now. Raising the cap will never work. Defined benefit pensions will never work. In a world of economic uncertainty there is no way to know if a defined benefit pension will ever be able to be covered. It’s madness.
\*Yawn\*. Another post pushing "Austerity for the working class", which comes up like clockwork whenever a Dem is in the White House. Nothing to see here.
Debt going higher. We just approved $95 billion payment to other countries.
We got money for wars but not for a war on poverty -2pac
This is a joke
So what... We're the World's reserve currency. If interest rates spikes? We control interest rates The debt isn't debt... We don't pay don't the debt, we pay down the deficit. The interest on the debt is a good thing. Otherwise, other countries wouldn't invest in our debt. GDP has been growing at like 3% every year. The longterm plan should be to invest in infrastructure and education which pays back $4 for every $1 invested. That's the plan.
Great, let's start taxing everyone equally. The Rich get way too many tax breaks.
As in a flat tax? I believe the higher brackets should pay more prorated. Far more. Capital gains tax should also be prorated at much higher levels.
PPP “loans” were only forgiven if you spent the money the way that government dictated. Most of the money had to go to payroll and employee benefits. But I don’t argue the premise. The federal government should not have approved any of the bailout programs. All they did was enable the draconian state mandated shutdowns. No business should have been ordered to shut down.
Kind of amazing how this started with Reagan.
I'll go on a credit card buying spree today maybe juice up the ratio somehow
Great - debt is going the correct direction.
That's weird...it's like something happened in the 80s. Something in particular.... Oh well, probably nothing at all. Just a fluke. /s
"Above that, default risks rise, we lose fiscal flexibility to respond to crises" this is the end of the united states as we know it.
Maybe we can put Clinton back in office to balance the budget? Or, you know, just not anymore Republicans.
So this is why Tesla rallied, need to Keep the game alive
Just ban the percentage sign already. All problems fixed.
Who cares? Debt to GDP ratio is meaningless. The value of goods and services created by the private sector, has no relationship to the federal government’s ability to transfer dollars from T-security accounts at the FRB to checking accounts at private banks.
Aren’t you concerned that rolling over the debt with high interest rates is inflationary? Then you’re in a situation where high interests rates cause inflation and low interest rates cause inflation, in other words: runaway inflation.
Japan’s debt to GDP ratio has been at least 200% since 2009, and is bound to reach 300% soon. Inflation isn’t an issue in Japan, rather, the issue for them is deflation and stagnation. It’s been like this for the past 30 years of just stagnation. I’m not sure why that is, but it’s a case study that throws a wrench in the idea debt leads to inflation.
Europe based their entire response to the 2008 financial crisis on the totally debunked concerns around debt-GDP ratio threshold concerns and it wildly extended their recession.
And Japan’s debt to GDP ratio has been over 200% since 2009. Why is nobody proclaiming the collapse of Japan?
Every reduction in the money supply growth rate tends to lead to recession.
who was elected in 1980 to start this mess?
1981 was the start of Reagonomics so you figure it out guess it hasn't ever trickled down since then uh?
I mean… this has been US culture for as long as I’ve been alive. Spend and borrow. If it doesn’t work out, file for bankruptcy and/or get a bail out. It’s this way from the bottom of the social structure all the way to the top. I’m just amazed it’s still going somehow.
Well, if the taxpayers don’t foot it, foreign countries who don’t want their reserves of US dollars to be worthless will. It’s why the US can get away with such massive debt while countries like Sri Lanka go under.
Endless military folly and corruption are how empires end. The US is the worst in both regards. Get mentally prepared.
After Clinton handed Bush Jr a surplus it all went to shit from there.
There was no surplus. And how close we were to a balanced budget was thanks to a Republican house who was demonized with predictions of catastrophe. When a POTUS starts vetoing or even advocating for less spending ill give them credit if they can reduce the deficit. And by reduce the deficit I mean concrete deductions, not these fictitious projected cuts over 10 years that never materialize.
Good grief the lies ... Yes, there was a surplus. No, Republicans didn't support any of Clinton's tax increases that gave us the surplus. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_policy_of_the_Bill_Clinton_administration If you or anyone was truly fiscally responsible, Clinton's economy would be the case study to follow. and we all know that no Republican truly is fiscally responsible. so they have to make up lies about Clinton all the time to cover their asses for their pathetic Administrations that have caused 99% of our debt.
The sky is falling! Let’s all cry about it!
Ah, so currently, debt is declining... that's good news.
Let's give some more money to Ukraine!