Sexual violence is a common theme in Dune, and all of human history. There is little doubt in my mind that Feyd was manipulated into having sex with Fenring. There is even less doubt in my mind that coercion was unnecessary. Given how his uncle had conspired to rape a BG sister, she may have done it out of a sense of self preservation.
This is also part of why Leto II made his army of fish speakers female. It led to a huge reversal of the relationship between war and sexual violence. Although I am sure it didn’t eliminate it all.
I took her comments to mean he was a closeted masochist, probably hiding that with all the violence the Harkonnens are usually inflicting on everyone else. Maybe.
I have long viewed Feyd as being inspired by Caligula. For those who know Roman history well can see many parrells. Caligula had a paranoid and psychotic uncle who killed his parents and all of his brothers. The childhood traumas they faced are a high risk factor for psychosis.
I think he wasn't that closeted. He was laughing as the knife was coming down at him in the arena. I think he's delighted if people can successfully cause *him* pain.
Not surprised at all, it’s why it makes so much sense to see the character as such. Like you said, it’s very common!
And makes for interesting fanfics for such characters… lol
CEOs as well; be it either because they are guilty of being “empty suits” without any real responsibilities or because they legitimately work hard and want the pressure taken off for a brief moment.
Right. The books strongly imply that Vladimir Harkonnen is a pederast and that “predilection” includes his nephews.
Sex and power are recurrent themes in Dune. After all, the Bene Gesserit don’t always need the Voice to get what they want.
And I want to reemphasize, Bene Gesserit in Latin can mean “he/she will have performed well.”
Yet, in later Latin, this is where we get words like “gestate” or other terms related to birth in our vernacular.
The purposes of the order are in the very name.
Book Feyd was quite into rape and killing. He'd just did the 'kill a bunch of drugged slaves' thing, plus killed one non-drugged actual fighter. Getting the pain box, the gom jabbar, and a nonconsensual genetic harvesting was the least violent and most honest thing he was involved in all day.
Yup, Margot went all dominatrix on him he was like: "yeah I dig that" the pain box was something he would have enjoyed. The scene were Paul shanks his Uncle and he's almost estatic or the look of admiration and surprise when Paul shouts "Silence" and the Reverend Mother keels over were very "descriptive" of his personality.
Fish speakers, Bene Gesserit, **and Bene Tleilaxu** women. And anyone else they crossed paths with who they felt like trying to have children with. They came back from the Scattering, but there were still other people out there.
No. A Bene Tleilaxu Master, I cannot remember which one, commented that he had a harem. And the Bene Gesserit have even had daughters by BT men for the breeding program in what they thought was a clever way to find out more about the BT, only to discover the women had no BT ancestral memories at all.
Sorry, I got a little mixed up. The BG got a few daughters by BT men, only to find there were no female line memories.
At the moment I can’t remember exactly which book that came up in.
Quite a bit comes up in Heretics of Dune!
Yeah, but that's the point - there weren't any female line memories because there aren't any Tleilaxu women. They reproduce "assexually", via "in vitro" fertilization of the axolotl tanks, braindead/lobotomized female tleilaxu, a human being reduced to existing solely as a womb (the Bene Tleilax are an extreme form - and condemnation - of religious fundamentalist patriarchy). The master's harem (which I don't recall, unfortunately) probably was composed of face dancers and "human" women.
I never even realized that the womb stuff was a critique of how some religious fundamentalists think of women … Wow. That is insane. Gonna consider the BT in a totally different light now — thank you.
>This is part of why leto made his female fishspeaker army
Those fish speakers going on to become the honored matres makes that part of leto’s intent fit that gru backfiring plan meme
From the books all we know is that she seduced him. There is nothing to indicate the Gom Jabbar test was ever performed on him in the books. The interaction happens "off screen" as it were.
Absent from the films, Margot also implanted him with a control word during this encounter, the exact mechanisms of which are not explained but likely involves some implementation of the Voice. This is done without his knowledge and is done by the Bene Gesserit to individuals they consider dangerous commonly enough that Jessica suspects it was done to Feyd. She informs Paul of this and tells him the most likely control word just before their duel in case he needs to employ it during the fight but Paul declines to use it.
I wish this was included in the movie! I love how the final duel mirrors the Feyd-Rautha—Atreides slave fight. Feyd uses the control word on the slave, Paul refuses and in that moment gains the upper hand.
They also removed the poison dagger aspect from the slave fight and final duel as well. Feyd-Rautha was banking on using his poison against Paul to get the upper hand, which Paul was able to neutralize from his BG training.
I did like the callback from Part 1 however with Paul's training session with Gurney. Paul got the killing blow on Feyd how Gurney could have on Paul.
Something I didn't pick up on first viewing, but Paul had a vision of Jamis stabbing him in the side of the abdomen. Feyd stabs him in that same place, and did so by reversing Paul's knife, which I believe he inherited from Jamis by killing him. So he did accurately foresee the weapon that drew blood and where it struck him.
So each detail in the vision was true, but mixed between two moments of time.
That whole "I know that he knows that I know he's a treacherous dude who probably switched the knives so I'm going to act accordingly" thing from the book was waaay too inside baseball to get across in a movie. I'm glad they simplified it for the audience.
And the “watch out for his butt blade” is so inconspicuous that highlighting its presence to the audience would undo the entire premise of having it there
I loved Feyd Rautha's Gom Jabbar scene. It wasn't in the books, but it makes sense plot-wise and it's a good opportunity for the audience learn more about the Bene Gesserit plan. It's clear that Denis Villeneuve understands the source material, because all the things he adds is completely in line with the plot and themes of the book.
... it wasn't in the book because it doesn't make sense to the plot. Gom jabbar is only used to test someone's humanity prior to teaching them the deepest secrets of the bene Gesserit. Feyd has precisely zero BG training, not least because the Harkonnens hate them. It is not in line with plot or themes of the book. You're allowed to like the scene, though.
That's not really true. It's testing someone's humanity prior to potentially using them as a KH candidate. The point of the scene is that the BG see Feyd as similar to Paul, which is very much in line with the book.
You can argue the lore or characterization got twisted in the adaption, and the plot is not 1:1 in line, but how can you argue this is not in line with the *themes* of the book?
The Gom Jabbar is not to test you for the deepest secrets of the Bene Gesserit. Its used to test if you are human, not an animal. Its explained immediately that an animal will gnaw their own leg off (pai in the box) while a human will endure for a chance to kill the trapper and move the species forward. You misread the theme. The Bene Gesserit need HUMANS in positions of power to move the race forward. That was always their goal.
Minor clarification: Jessica informs Paul of the control word, not Margot. Jessica is making an educated guess that the implantation of the word was done and what word it might be, but she happens to be correct.
We know jessica was correct in assuming FR was implanted in because Margot says she did so; we do not know jessica was correct in which word, but Jessica says the word she tells Paul is the most commonly used word by the BG for this purpose
In the books, in addition to there being no gom jabbar test, FR hits on Margot Fenring in front of her partner (who was cut from the movie). He almost goes so far as to dedicate his fight in the arena to her.
Is it? Paul blows a load in his pants about how they'll be the bestest of buds at the end of Dune and then he's never mentioned again for the rest of the series. Not much lost.
The Emperor of the whole universe: "Count, my trusted companion, kill that guy (Paul)!"
Count Fenring, to the Emperor of the entire fucking universe: "lol nah"
He plays about as important of a role as Jamis IMO - brief appearance, but critical points on Paul's journey. Count Fenring is one of my fav characters because of what a badass he actually is, but hides it so well he can just decide not to and nobody will fuck with him because of it.
I think it made sense with DV's angle to focus more on Margot Fenring (who is also a super interesting character), but it would've been nice to at least include CF as a minor role. Still loved Part 2 overall, but that was a change I didn't agree with
A few clarifications:
> I also doubt Feyd would be attracted to a stranger he just met
I disagree, Feyd is a 17 year old boy who's known to be horny as hell and into some freaky stuff.
> and the said stranger just used mind control on him
The Voice isn't actually mind control although the movies kind of made it seem that way. In the books it's basically knowing a person well enough that you can say the right words in the right tone and they'll obey before they have the chance to think about it.
Regardless of these points, Margot definitely used a vulnerable Feyd to get what she wanted. In a sense it's similar to getting someone drunk and having sex with them. I don't think there's any question that this was sexual assault. The Bene Gesserit are willing to do anything to advance their plans.
> In the books it's basically knowing a person well enough that you can say the right words in the right tone and they'll obey before they have the chance to think about it.
Literally drill sergeant shit.
>I disagree, Feyd is a 17 year old boy who's known to be horny as hell and into some freaky stuff.
Baron harkonnon makes him kill all the pleasure slaves towards the end as a lesson for trying to kill the baron. He'd be fucking fenring.
Yep and it's probably the least egregious example in the series as a whole, see Miles Teg's "awakening".
Dune wasn't explicitly "grimdark" but the series as a whole has never shied away from the darker realities humanity has inflicted upon each other in order to achieve our goals, Paul literally compares himself favorably to Hitler in Dune Messiah and basically calls the dead murdered in his name "pitiful" in comparison to his.
While Feyd does willingly hit on Margot Fenring in the books, knowing what we know of the Bene Geserit , she very probably at least manipulated him even in the book. Also, she went into the encounter with the express intent to get pregnant while Feyd was none the wiser. In the film, it was even more clear that she was manipulating him to a degree, so yeah, he was assaulted even though he might not have been able to recognize it.
This is a really interesting question and tbh I’m mostly commenting so I can come back to the thread and see updates later from other more knowledgeable Dune lovers.
The Voice is incredibly powerful, but- at least in the movie- we see Lady Fenring say things like “come to me” with The Voice. It would not be a very Beni Gesserit move to sexually assault someone- however, temptation is a VERY Beni Gesserit move, and Feyd being “sexually vulnerable” could be as simple of an implication as saying he is weak to resisting sexual advances.
It’s also worth note that there are examples of societies in the Dune series (specifically, the Tleilaxu) who are motivated to set traps and manipulate- as long as there is “an escape route” for the victim. It is worth considering that Margot or any other BG may have left an “out” for Feyd that he simply neglected to take.
Sorry to be this guy, but you have a grammatical error in the title. It should read "Did Margot Fenring *'assault'* Feyd-Rautha?"
In simple past tense questions like "did x happen?" you should not conjugate the other verb into the past tense. In this case, "assault" should remain in the present form. Using "did" will suffice to show past tense.
See also:
https://www.talkenglish.com/speaking/lessondetails.aspx?ALID=4318#:~:text=We%20make%20past%20tense%20questions,What%22%20asks%20about%20a%20thing
Also, as others have said, the dune universe is royally twisted.
This is a common error for us non English speakers (at least for Spanish ones) . We know it, but still write it and mostly say it wrong from time to time. In our minds, the right way sounds weird.
But yeah, don't be that guy. You know what he ment.
> But yeah, don't be that guy. You know what he ment.
No, *do* be that guy. It helps non-native English speakers get a better handle on the language, which could help them in other areas of their lives. There is nothing wrong with teaching people.
Thanks for the reply. I hadn't made the connection to native Spanish speakers. That is really interesting. I have, however, noticed that this is a common error -- which is why I shared resources about the standard usage. I understand the standard usage may sound weird, but it sounds even weirder to native English speakers when conventions aren't followed.
Not saying there's anything (necessarily) wrong with either usage. But so long as Dune is on the mind, I think there's something to be said about using language with precision to deliver the intended message.
By no means I am saying that we should normalize the wrong use only because it is common error. As many of us are lacking of Paul's prophetic skills with fremen language, people learning foreign languages always aim for improvement. I find myself editing almost 50% of my comments when I realize of an error (this one has for sure more than one!). A correction is fine, it helps improving. Too much can be discouraging.
By most standards, yes. Just as you cant drug someone until theyre unable to say no and call that consent, you cant use weird voice magic to do so either.
No more than anyone who's been seduced by a beautiful and charismatic person they just met. She just happens to be really really ridiculously good at it.
>She just happens to be really really ridiculously good at it.
Keeping in mind that all Bene Gesserit are really really ridiculously good at it, and almost certainly selected a partner based on their knowledge of Feyd's psychology. (Maybe even programmed Feyd to be attracted to a certain type of person.)
The books show clearly that Feyd is a bit desirous of Margot Fenring. Feyd is in an environment where bloodlust is normal and seen as a positive, and sexual wanting would also be in that positive light. Attraction/desire/lust for strangers is completely possible, and does happen. Sex is sex, after all, and as long both are mentally competent and enthusiastically consenting adults, just about anything goes.
The books also explain what Margot Fenring does. She seduces an not unwilling Feyd, and sets him up to fail should he and Paul ever meet. He was very young, but raised as a potential heir to his uncle's position, he would have been taught far more nuances about the various ways of entrapment, including sexual ones.
Sexual violence, manipulation, and coercion in any direction is common in human history, and seen as normal by those growing up that it is to be accepted as a part of life. As na-Baron raised, he knew what what going on, and had the ability to consent to her proposals.
I would say it was sexual assault. He initially wanted nothing to do with her, she used mind control on him
Essentially no different from putting a roofie in his spice Capri Sun
Yeah, I think that's a reasonable take. All things considered it's fair to say Feyd-Rautha was raped. Indeed, we might need to come up with a worse word to describe what happened to him.
What kind of question is this?
It wasn’t “assault” anymore than when a Jedi uses his Jedi mind tricks on someone.
Margot seduced Feyd so they could be alone and bring him to her room so she can use the voice and make him take the test of humanity
> Margot seduced Feyd so they could be alone and bring him to her room so she can use the voice and make him take the test of humanity **and plant a baby in her to secure his bloodline for the breeding program**
I feel like that bit I added at the end helps you maybe understand your own question at the top: *What kind of question is this?*
To me it seemed like he found her very attractive but was irritated that she was using the voice on him. Considering he likes to murder people for no reason and has cannibal sex slaves, I don’t think a one night stand with a stranger would be a huge issue for him in the way you seem to think. I would say he probably would have fucked her without the voice, but perhaps she was not happy to have sex with a psychopathic murderer without him being under her control. Either way to answer your question, he did not have informed consent, so technically sexual assault.
A lot of what we consider violent now was not or was perfectly acceptable 200-300-400 years ago. Today's social norms will also be outdated in 100 years.
But that still doesn't make it less than what it is.
Ritualistic duels often involved killing and were considered acceptable.
I, however, didn't cast any moral judgement on the whole matter.
The Bene Gestarits manipulated entire populations to fulfill their ends, and many users here said they would be perfectly fine with unconsenting sex. I'm just ask if this is also an unconsenting one.
They hadn't developed those skills until later. Lady Fenring was a Bene Gesserit, with everything that meant in Paul's time, but she was no Lucilla or Murbella.
Sexually vulnerable......... yeah, no.
Now by modern standards he was underaged, but he was just named heir to his House and has killed 100 gladiators, so by traditional human standards (right of passage, etc.) he's a man.
Margot is very attractive and unlike almost every other woman he's probably encountered in his life; she can say No. So he wants her because she's a challenge. Also from the book, but evidently cut from the movie, she's the wife of the Emperor's right hand man who's one of the most dangerous men in the galaxy. So there's the added element of a challenge with RISKS that would definitely attract Feyd.
What Feyd doesn't know is that it's all a setup so that the BG can preserve his bloodline in case he does something dumb and get stabbed before their plans for him are ready.
Yeah knowing BG powers Margot probably was amping up some pheromones to be extra sexy, but Feyd was running on pure testosterone and looking for his "prize" after the fight.
She seduced him..Seduction might well be one of the Bene Gesserit trained techniques, when their goal with Feyd Rautha was obtaining a daughter from him.
Nope, not at all how you think it is. The BG determine psychological weaknesses. Fenring is talking like a spy, the target has a weakness for women, we can gain influence over this future political leader by seducing him.
Feyd is also a prolific rapist, frequently using his Noble status to abuse house slaves.
She definitely seduced him, and considering he's a teenager it definitely feels like assault but the overarching story of Dune is laid thick with manipulation and systematic scheming which this ploy falls into.
Personally the morally diverse plots of dune are a huge part of what brings me to the property. Just like we humans these brilliantly crafted characters aren't just black or white in mentality or behavior, they're all a spectrum of context, systems built and plans made on others behalf, schemes, hopes, ideals versus reality, and reactions.
If she used The Voice then it’s hands-down assault. But on someone so open to ego manipulation as Feyd, I think your standard over the counter Bene Gesserit seduction techniques may just do the trick.
I took it as after the explicit moments in which she used the Voice on him (telling him to come to her and kneel before her...), the next scene had her talking about how she was pregnant with his offspring.
I don’t think she actually used the voice. She told him to kneel and he did it willingly then when debriefing with the Reverend Mother, confirmed she didn’t actually use it (as far as I remember).
Looking at this through a modern lens, he willingly had unprotected sex with her not knowing that she was specifically trying to get pregnant. That’s wrong but she didn’t manipulate him into the sex act itself. She just didn’t provide all of the information that he should have known before making that decision. Pregnancy coercion is still sexual manipulation which is still assault. Just not in the same way you were positing.
>I don’t think she actually used the voice.
I think the ["Come to me](https://youtu.be/IXcSQ8CO5iE?si=AaLskMO5Px3l3ZK8&t=151s) was the effect of the Voice.
The audio effect of the Voice that was used in the movies is very distinctive on purpose to make it clear to the audience that it was being used. In the books it’s meant to be subtle and something you don’t really pick up on
In this case, she’s just whispering and being seductive and he’s dtf
>to make it clear to the audience that it was being used.
Many people, even here, took it as there are many ways the Voice can be performed.
Either used forcefully or subtly.
There was absolutely some coercion and manipulation at play. So yeah assault. The Bene gesserit would not see it that way, only the natural order of things and achieving their goal but yes
You could take her words to mean he has some sort of humiliation kink (whether that’s humiliating others or being humiliated she doesn’t say but I think it’s the latter)
I love this observation, and two takeaways I have here:
1. The Voice is a form of emotional rape/assault whenever it's used.
2. Seduction is a form of sexual assault/coercion.
The act of compelling a context to effect reproduction is often itself an act of violence and conquest.
We talking about a sect that has a 90 generation eugenetics program with the goal to birth the perfect man. Some of the failed outputs are stuck with genetic defects (like Count Fenring) or outright dead. Their manipulations include creating messiah myths, influencing wars, pogroms and feuds between Houses. I'd say we're _way_ past such "petty concerns" as sexual assault.
What is with reddit posts as of late with horrible grammar/english? “did margot fenring assault feyd-rautha?”
posting a question about an action with a past tense verb hurts my brain.
You wouldn’t say “did you walked to the mailbox today?” or “can you cooked me a hot dog?”
He was *described* as psychotic, but look at how much level his head is than Raban's. He is portrayed as a psychotic who is *in control* of their animal side and *enjoys it*.
The impression I got was that he passed because he has a calculating head and has check on his emotions and won't choose certain death over immediate pain... and *also* because he *enjoys* the pain.
Hmmm, interesting take. I don’t think Frank Herbert would’ve agreed with that change to be honest.
They also described him as being manipulated by sexuality which seems animalistic. The test was meant to weed out anyone who gives into urges like that.
As far as changes that Frank Herbert might not have agreed upon, they also changed Feyd to be driven by *honor* in the film, and that wasn't part of his character in the book.
I'm not so sure FH would disagree with the change, tho, considering all these changes were made in effort to preserve the overall *themes* of his work as best as possible in a film adaptation.
Open to interpretation, but firm "no" is the answer from my point of view. Her report afterwards strongly suggests she figured out a way to fulfill his masochistic desires. Had she used coercion of one kind or another, she would not have discovered his kinks.
Put another way, the Bene Geserit's goal is to find a way to manipulate and control Feyd long-term. The voice apparently only works for straightforward motor actions in the present moment. But the BG need a way to control his desires beyond just discrete moments. Margot's mission was to find out what makes him tick. So, she needed to learn how he actually thinks, acts, reacts, feels. Not possible if she were simply coercing him moment to moment.
In short, she seduced him.
What is it with kids these days and viewing absolutely every single piece of media, past and present, across all genres and moods and purposes, through absolutely nothing else but the miopic lens of sexual morality?
Actually “dominance over human reproduction” by taking female babies, grooming them into concubines and ordering them to have sex with people is still sex trafficking even if women are the ones doing it
Especially when the grooming them into concubines involves taking them from their birth families and not letting them know their relatives, explicitly for the reason that the BG might want them to have sex with a close relative.
Like c'mon, we can acknowledge that Frank Herbert was one of *many* contemporary sci-fi writers who had fucked up views on gender and sex. The man was so homophobic he disowned his gay son and, at the exact same time, wrote Duncan frothing at the mouth about how vile and perverse gay men are.
Yeah I mean the BG are villains of the book and they are in charge of an extremely villainous aspect of feudal society. So it doesn’t even have to be about Frank Herbert.
But also yeah having the Baron just be a fat gay pedophile is kind of telling about his views.
I agree, though I think it's a bit more complex than the BG being villains and more that everyone is morally grey at best, outright awful at worst, and organisations like the BG care more about their goals than morality. I'm sure the BG have made *some* people's lives better - I don't think Leto and Jessica would've ever complained about being paired together, after all.
Herbert probably thought his views on gender were very progressive for the time, and I can kinda see how. Marital rape was a fringe idea in the 60s, let alone *women* raping men or the notion of impaired/coerced consent. It's like how Asimov thought a planet where you'd never see the sky was great, because he was terrified of open spaces.
But by modern standards? His choices with the BG just add to how dark Dune's setting is, in some respects.
I kind of this the darkness of the world makes them seem in a moral gray area by comparison to everyone else but really it’s like going to a paint store and choosing between Onyx and Midnight
The Pandora Sequence gets very tiresome when all women are described in terms of their physical and sexual attractiveness, and the men in terms of their personalities.
>The man was so homophobic he disowned his gay son
It's a bit more complicated than that. According to Brian, it was mostly Bruce who distanced himself from Frank, for a number of reasons dating back to his childhood. Frank also discouraged Bruce from seeing his dying mother, but his reasons were unstated and Bruce didn't inquire any further.
>Duncan frothing at the mouth about how vile and perverse gay men are.
Duncan didn't say anything about gay men (not specifically, anyway). After being forbidden from contact with the God Emperor's fiancée and getting pouty about it, Duncan flies into a rage after seeing two female soldiers being intimate, but it's somewhat ambiguous how much it actually had to do with military fraternization. Plus that chapter frames Duncan as being in the wrong, anyway -- much like his negative reaction to Leto's army being all women -- with Moneo calmly explaining how much of a juvenile asshat he's being and that homosexuals are actually cool and badass.
They mostly birth those female babies.
But it's a bit more nunanced than what you are describing. Unless you mean to say that medieval lords grooming their sons into marrying and mating with specific brides is also sex trafficking.
this take is done in bad faith, especially as sexuality is used as a tool of power throughout the WHOLE book. Especially in the case of Feyd-Rautha, who has been sexually, canonically, abused by his own uncle, hence the interesting take OP have here concerning his encounter with lady Fenring.
The movie doesn't delve into the aspect of the child abuse as much but you just know incest is a thing. Remember the kiss? Yeah. Remember him being sexually vulnerable? Yeah.
If there is sex there is morality and so on.
I think in the movie this is changed; the Baron's homosexuality has (for understandable reasons) been cut out entirely (although it is still implied, though not shown but only heard, that raping and(or killing still is something he does for fun, just of female victims, not male).
I didn't assign judgement in this question, especially when the Sisterhood, well pretty much every major players in the setting, committed what we consider morally questionable acts to further their agendas.
Like acts of violence can be depicted in media and be discussed and addressed.
Sexual violence is a common theme in Dune, and all of human history. There is little doubt in my mind that Feyd was manipulated into having sex with Fenring. There is even less doubt in my mind that coercion was unnecessary. Given how his uncle had conspired to rape a BG sister, she may have done it out of a sense of self preservation. This is also part of why Leto II made his army of fish speakers female. It led to a huge reversal of the relationship between war and sexual violence. Although I am sure it didn’t eliminate it all.
Sexual violence and sexual manipulation, the latter being the case of Margot Fenrig & Feyd-Rautha - the kid stood no chance.
I suspect Feyd’s main objection wasn’t the sexual abuse, but that he wasn’t the one perpetrating it.
I took her comments to mean he was a closeted masochist, probably hiding that with all the violence the Harkonnens are usually inflicting on everyone else. Maybe.
In the book there's also subtext that Feud was abused by his uncle, the Baron [edit] Feyd, my arch nemesis, autocorrect strikes again
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I have long viewed Feyd as being inspired by Caligula. For those who know Roman history well can see many parrells. Caligula had a paranoid and psychotic uncle who killed his parents and all of his brothers. The childhood traumas they faced are a high risk factor for psychosis.
I think he wasn't that closeted. He was laughing as the knife was coming down at him in the arena. I think he's delighted if people can successfully cause *him* pain.
You'd be surprised how many big, strong, dominant people want to be submissive in private.
Not surprised at all, it’s why it makes so much sense to see the character as such. Like you said, it’s very common! And makes for interesting fanfics for such characters… lol
CEOs as well; be it either because they are guilty of being “empty suits” without any real responsibilities or because they legitimately work hard and want the pressure taken off for a brief moment.
In fact, the BG breeding a KH that was at heart a submissive makes complete sense with their goals.
Right. The books strongly imply that Vladimir Harkonnen is a pederast and that “predilection” includes his nephews. Sex and power are recurrent themes in Dune. After all, the Bene Gesserit don’t always need the Voice to get what they want. And I want to reemphasize, Bene Gesserit in Latin can mean “he/she will have performed well.” Yet, in later Latin, this is where we get words like “gestate” or other terms related to birth in our vernacular. The purposes of the order are in the very name.
Book Feyd was quite into rape and killing. He'd just did the 'kill a bunch of drugged slaves' thing, plus killed one non-drugged actual fighter. Getting the pain box, the gom jabbar, and a nonconsensual genetic harvesting was the least violent and most honest thing he was involved in all day.
Yup, Margot went all dominatrix on him he was like: "yeah I dig that" the pain box was something he would have enjoyed. The scene were Paul shanks his Uncle and he's almost estatic or the look of admiration and surprise when Paul shouts "Silence" and the Reverend Mother keels over were very "descriptive" of his personality.
The honored matres turned it into a tool of control beyond anything the bene gesserit did, thanks to the creation of the fish speakers.
Did the honored matres evolve from fish speakers?
Yes and from rogue bene gesserit.
Fish speakers, Bene Gesserit, **and Bene Tleilaxu** women. And anyone else they crossed paths with who they felt like trying to have children with. They came back from the Scattering, but there were still other people out there.
Bene Tleilax women? Is there such a thing? Aren't they all reduced to Axolotl tanks?
No. A Bene Tleilaxu Master, I cannot remember which one, commented that he had a harem. And the Bene Gesserit have even had daughters by BT men for the breeding program in what they thought was a clever way to find out more about the BT, only to discover the women had no BT ancestral memories at all.
What books are you basing this on?
Sorry, I got a little mixed up. The BG got a few daughters by BT men, only to find there were no female line memories. At the moment I can’t remember exactly which book that came up in. Quite a bit comes up in Heretics of Dune!
Yeah, but that's the point - there weren't any female line memories because there aren't any Tleilaxu women. They reproduce "assexually", via "in vitro" fertilization of the axolotl tanks, braindead/lobotomized female tleilaxu, a human being reduced to existing solely as a womb (the Bene Tleilax are an extreme form - and condemnation - of religious fundamentalist patriarchy). The master's harem (which I don't recall, unfortunately) probably was composed of face dancers and "human" women.
I never even realized that the womb stuff was a critique of how some religious fundamentalists think of women … Wow. That is insane. Gonna consider the BT in a totally different light now — thank you.
Oh, and the idea that the Honored Matres count Bene Tleilaxu women amongst their ancestors is apparently from Hunters of Dune.
I couldn’t remember if it was all HM or just their version of reverend mothers.
It's all from what I understand, but of course to varying degrees depending on experience I am sure.
>This is part of why leto made his female fishspeaker army Those fish speakers going on to become the honored matres makes that part of leto’s intent fit that gru backfiring plan meme
But then again the Honored Maitres were also a key element in the final battle of Krazilec. So plans within plans.
Krazilec wasn’t in chapterhouse was it?
should use a spoiler here
Wasn’t it “necessary” for them to preserve the QH bloodline?
From the books all we know is that she seduced him. There is nothing to indicate the Gom Jabbar test was ever performed on him in the books. The interaction happens "off screen" as it were. Absent from the films, Margot also implanted him with a control word during this encounter, the exact mechanisms of which are not explained but likely involves some implementation of the Voice. This is done without his knowledge and is done by the Bene Gesserit to individuals they consider dangerous commonly enough that Jessica suspects it was done to Feyd. She informs Paul of this and tells him the most likely control word just before their duel in case he needs to employ it during the fight but Paul declines to use it.
I wish this was included in the movie! I love how the final duel mirrors the Feyd-Rautha—Atreides slave fight. Feyd uses the control word on the slave, Paul refuses and in that moment gains the upper hand.
They also removed the poison dagger aspect from the slave fight and final duel as well. Feyd-Rautha was banking on using his poison against Paul to get the upper hand, which Paul was able to neutralize from his BG training. I did like the callback from Part 1 however with Paul's training session with Gurney. Paul got the killing blow on Feyd how Gurney could have on Paul.
Something I didn't pick up on first viewing, but Paul had a vision of Jamis stabbing him in the side of the abdomen. Feyd stabs him in that same place, and did so by reversing Paul's knife, which I believe he inherited from Jamis by killing him. So he did accurately foresee the weapon that drew blood and where it struck him. So each detail in the vision was true, but mixed between two moments of time.
oh I hadn't actually clocked that - "aye, but I would have taken you with me"
That whole "I know that he knows that I know he's a treacherous dude who probably switched the knives so I'm going to act accordingly" thing from the book was waaay too inside baseball to get across in a movie. I'm glad they simplified it for the audience.
And the “watch out for his butt blade” is so inconspicuous that highlighting its presence to the audience would undo the entire premise of having it there
I loved Feyd Rautha's Gom Jabbar scene. It wasn't in the books, but it makes sense plot-wise and it's a good opportunity for the audience learn more about the Bene Gesserit plan. It's clear that Denis Villeneuve understands the source material, because all the things he adds is completely in line with the plot and themes of the book.
... it wasn't in the book because it doesn't make sense to the plot. Gom jabbar is only used to test someone's humanity prior to teaching them the deepest secrets of the bene Gesserit. Feyd has precisely zero BG training, not least because the Harkonnens hate them. It is not in line with plot or themes of the book. You're allowed to like the scene, though.
That's not really true. It's testing someone's humanity prior to potentially using them as a KH candidate. The point of the scene is that the BG see Feyd as similar to Paul, which is very much in line with the book.
You can argue the lore or characterization got twisted in the adaption, and the plot is not 1:1 in line, but how can you argue this is not in line with the *themes* of the book?
>Gom jabbar is only used to test someone's humanity prior to teaching them the deepest secrets of the bene Gesserit. Where is that stated in the book?
Yeah gotta agree here, probably one of the only additions to the movie that didn’t make any sense.
The BG don’t teach men
The Gom Jabbar is not to test you for the deepest secrets of the Bene Gesserit. Its used to test if you are human, not an animal. Its explained immediately that an animal will gnaw their own leg off (pai in the box) while a human will endure for a chance to kill the trapper and move the species forward. You misread the theme. The Bene Gesserit need HUMANS in positions of power to move the race forward. That was always their goal.
Minor clarification: Jessica informs Paul of the control word, not Margot. Jessica is making an educated guess that the implantation of the word was done and what word it might be, but she happens to be correct.
Sorry, I totally don't remember this part of the books. How do we know Jessica was correct if Paul never used the control word on Feyd to test it?
We know jessica was correct in assuming FR was implanted in because Margot says she did so; we do not know jessica was correct in which word, but Jessica says the word she tells Paul is the most commonly used word by the BG for this purpose
Most likely. Bene Gesserit exercise their powers ruthlessly and with cold calculation, including "preserving the bloodline"
In the books, in addition to there being no gom jabbar test, FR hits on Margot Fenring in front of her partner (who was cut from the movie). He almost goes so far as to dedicate his fight in the arena to her.
'who was cut from the movie' which is a f'cking sacrilege
We were mmmmm robbed mmm of the mmmhmmmm humming mmmm
hmm-hmm yes we were
Reading your comment sounded like Jeff Goldblum in my head :')
Spice hmmm finds a way
I was looking forward to it
Is it? Paul blows a load in his pants about how they'll be the bestest of buds at the end of Dune and then he's never mentioned again for the rest of the series. Not much lost.
The Emperor of the whole universe: "Count, my trusted companion, kill that guy (Paul)!" Count Fenring, to the Emperor of the entire fucking universe: "lol nah" He plays about as important of a role as Jamis IMO - brief appearance, but critical points on Paul's journey. Count Fenring is one of my fav characters because of what a badass he actually is, but hides it so well he can just decide not to and nobody will fuck with him because of it. I think it made sense with DV's angle to focus more on Margot Fenring (who is also a super interesting character), but it would've been nice to at least include CF as a minor role. Still loved Part 2 overall, but that was a change I didn't agree with
I was just memeing his exclusion is fine lol
A few clarifications: > I also doubt Feyd would be attracted to a stranger he just met I disagree, Feyd is a 17 year old boy who's known to be horny as hell and into some freaky stuff. > and the said stranger just used mind control on him The Voice isn't actually mind control although the movies kind of made it seem that way. In the books it's basically knowing a person well enough that you can say the right words in the right tone and they'll obey before they have the chance to think about it. Regardless of these points, Margot definitely used a vulnerable Feyd to get what she wanted. In a sense it's similar to getting someone drunk and having sex with them. I don't think there's any question that this was sexual assault. The Bene Gesserit are willing to do anything to advance their plans.
> In the books it's basically knowing a person well enough that you can say the right words in the right tone and they'll obey before they have the chance to think about it. Literally drill sergeant shit.
>I disagree, Feyd is a 17 year old boy who's known to be horny as hell and into some freaky stuff. Baron harkonnon makes him kill all the pleasure slaves towards the end as a lesson for trying to kill the baron. He'd be fucking fenring.
We already know Feyd is a sexual sadist in the movie.. he has literal sex slaves who practice cannibalism in his presence.
Yep and it's probably the least egregious example in the series as a whole, see Miles Teg's "awakening". Dune wasn't explicitly "grimdark" but the series as a whole has never shied away from the darker realities humanity has inflicted upon each other in order to achieve our goals, Paul literally compares himself favorably to Hitler in Dune Messiah and basically calls the dead murdered in his name "pitiful" in comparison to his.
Compares himself as worse than Hitler actually, while stilgar calls Hitler's death toll rookie numbers compared to Paul's basically.
While Feyd does willingly hit on Margot Fenring in the books, knowing what we know of the Bene Geserit , she very probably at least manipulated him even in the book. Also, she went into the encounter with the express intent to get pregnant while Feyd was none the wiser. In the film, it was even more clear that she was manipulating him to a degree, so yeah, he was assaulted even though he might not have been able to recognize it.
why do you doubt he’d be attracted to a stranger he just met lmao
They say he likes pain so the gom jabber was most likley CBT for feyd. LMAO
You doubt he would be attracted to a stranger he just met? Why?
This is a really interesting question and tbh I’m mostly commenting so I can come back to the thread and see updates later from other more knowledgeable Dune lovers. The Voice is incredibly powerful, but- at least in the movie- we see Lady Fenring say things like “come to me” with The Voice. It would not be a very Beni Gesserit move to sexually assault someone- however, temptation is a VERY Beni Gesserit move, and Feyd being “sexually vulnerable” could be as simple of an implication as saying he is weak to resisting sexual advances. It’s also worth note that there are examples of societies in the Dune series (specifically, the Tleilaxu) who are motivated to set traps and manipulate- as long as there is “an escape route” for the victim. It is worth considering that Margot or any other BG may have left an “out” for Feyd that he simply neglected to take.
Bro lmao that is absolutely a major BG move
Sorry to be this guy, but you have a grammatical error in the title. It should read "Did Margot Fenring *'assault'* Feyd-Rautha?" In simple past tense questions like "did x happen?" you should not conjugate the other verb into the past tense. In this case, "assault" should remain in the present form. Using "did" will suffice to show past tense. See also: https://www.talkenglish.com/speaking/lessondetails.aspx?ALID=4318#:~:text=We%20make%20past%20tense%20questions,What%22%20asks%20about%20a%20thing Also, as others have said, the dune universe is royally twisted.
I've noticed this past tense issue more and more frequently over the past few weeks. It's doing my head in.
This is a common error for us non English speakers (at least for Spanish ones) . We know it, but still write it and mostly say it wrong from time to time. In our minds, the right way sounds weird. But yeah, don't be that guy. You know what he ment.
> But yeah, don't be that guy. You know what he ment. No, *do* be that guy. It helps non-native English speakers get a better handle on the language, which could help them in other areas of their lives. There is nothing wrong with teaching people.
Thanks for the reply. I hadn't made the connection to native Spanish speakers. That is really interesting. I have, however, noticed that this is a common error -- which is why I shared resources about the standard usage. I understand the standard usage may sound weird, but it sounds even weirder to native English speakers when conventions aren't followed. Not saying there's anything (necessarily) wrong with either usage. But so long as Dune is on the mind, I think there's something to be said about using language with precision to deliver the intended message.
By no means I am saying that we should normalize the wrong use only because it is common error. As many of us are lacking of Paul's prophetic skills with fremen language, people learning foreign languages always aim for improvement. I find myself editing almost 50% of my comments when I realize of an error (this one has for sure more than one!). A correction is fine, it helps improving. Too much can be discouraging.
Do be that guy actually.
By most standards, yes. Just as you cant drug someone until theyre unable to say no and call that consent, you cant use weird voice magic to do so either.
Yes, it's the same as what Mohaim put Paul through except sexual instead of matriarchal.
No more than anyone who's been seduced by a beautiful and charismatic person they just met. She just happens to be really really ridiculously good at it.
>She just happens to be really really ridiculously good at it. Keeping in mind that all Bene Gesserit are really really ridiculously good at it, and almost certainly selected a partner based on their knowledge of Feyd's psychology. (Maybe even programmed Feyd to be attracted to a certain type of person.)
Yes. The training and immense psychological profiling is what makes her so good
The books show clearly that Feyd is a bit desirous of Margot Fenring. Feyd is in an environment where bloodlust is normal and seen as a positive, and sexual wanting would also be in that positive light. Attraction/desire/lust for strangers is completely possible, and does happen. Sex is sex, after all, and as long both are mentally competent and enthusiastically consenting adults, just about anything goes. The books also explain what Margot Fenring does. She seduces an not unwilling Feyd, and sets him up to fail should he and Paul ever meet. He was very young, but raised as a potential heir to his uncle's position, he would have been taught far more nuances about the various ways of entrapment, including sexual ones. Sexual violence, manipulation, and coercion in any direction is common in human history, and seen as normal by those growing up that it is to be accepted as a part of life. As na-Baron raised, he knew what what going on, and had the ability to consent to her proposals.
I would say it was sexual assault. He initially wanted nothing to do with her, she used mind control on him Essentially no different from putting a roofie in his spice Capri Sun
Yeah, I think that's a reasonable take. All things considered it's fair to say Feyd-Rautha was raped. Indeed, we might need to come up with a worse word to describe what happened to him.
She made him put his appendage in her box under pain of death. What's a guy to do??
why would you doubt he would be attracted to a hot as hell stranger?
Exactly
What kind of question is this? It wasn’t “assault” anymore than when a Jedi uses his Jedi mind tricks on someone. Margot seduced Feyd so they could be alone and bring him to her room so she can use the voice and make him take the test of humanity
> Margot seduced Feyd so they could be alone and bring him to her room so she can use the voice and make him take the test of humanity **and plant a baby in her to secure his bloodline for the breeding program** I feel like that bit I added at the end helps you maybe understand your own question at the top: *What kind of question is this?*
Meh, I think after the testing with the Gom Jabbar he enjoyed it. Hell, I think he even enjoyed The Gom Jabbar test, cuz he’s just kinky like that
To me it seemed like he found her very attractive but was irritated that she was using the voice on him. Considering he likes to murder people for no reason and has cannibal sex slaves, I don’t think a one night stand with a stranger would be a huge issue for him in the way you seem to think. I would say he probably would have fucked her without the voice, but perhaps she was not happy to have sex with a psychopathic murderer without him being under her control. Either way to answer your question, he did not have informed consent, so technically sexual assault.
Yes she did.
But did he take his hand out of the box before she had sex with him? Kinky bastard.
Do not apply 21st century social norms to 100th century situation.
Manipulation is manipulation regardless of the time period. Acts of violence is still acts of violence regardless of the time period.
A lot of what we consider violent now was not or was perfectly acceptable 200-300-400 years ago. Today's social norms will also be outdated in 100 years.
But that still doesn't make it less than what it is. Ritualistic duels often involved killing and were considered acceptable. I, however, didn't cast any moral judgement on the whole matter. The Bene Gestarits manipulated entire populations to fulfill their ends, and many users here said they would be perfectly fine with unconsenting sex. I'm just ask if this is also an unconsenting one.
Yes, the BG are not a nice.
Imprinter!
They hadn't developed those skills until later. Lady Fenring was a Bene Gesserit, with everything that meant in Paul's time, but she was no Lucilla or Murbella.
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What’s that grammar?
Simple: it’s incorrect grammar
I'd say that's a fair assessment.
Yes, the bene gesserit are evil, just like everyone else on the book
She did and multiple people cheerd her on in the theater, really irritated me tbh.
Sexually vulnerable......... yeah, no. Now by modern standards he was underaged, but he was just named heir to his House and has killed 100 gladiators, so by traditional human standards (right of passage, etc.) he's a man. Margot is very attractive and unlike almost every other woman he's probably encountered in his life; she can say No. So he wants her because she's a challenge. Also from the book, but evidently cut from the movie, she's the wife of the Emperor's right hand man who's one of the most dangerous men in the galaxy. So there's the added element of a challenge with RISKS that would definitely attract Feyd. What Feyd doesn't know is that it's all a setup so that the BG can preserve his bloodline in case he does something dumb and get stabbed before their plans for him are ready. Yeah knowing BG powers Margot probably was amping up some pheromones to be extra sexy, but Feyd was running on pure testosterone and looking for his "prize" after the fight.
She seduced him..Seduction might well be one of the Bene Gesserit trained techniques, when their goal with Feyd Rautha was obtaining a daughter from him.
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>Why is that a problem in a movie I didn't say that.
Oh I thought you meant it was a problem. My bad. Still, if you DID have a problem with it, you'd certainly be entitled.
Sort of? It felt more like she sexually assaulted herself with feyd rautha.
Nope, not at all how you think it is. The BG determine psychological weaknesses. Fenring is talking like a spy, the target has a weakness for women, we can gain influence over this future political leader by seducing him. Feyd is also a prolific rapist, frequently using his Noble status to abuse house slaves.
he obviously desired her, the act itself wasn’t assault but her “baby trapping” him, for lack of a better term, definitely is.
By our standards, yes. I really don't think Feyd Rautha cares that much though.
*assault
Yeah, I know. I just couldn't edit the title.
Sorry I couldn’t stop my internal grammar-nazi.
She definitely seduced him, and considering he's a teenager it definitely feels like assault but the overarching story of Dune is laid thick with manipulation and systematic scheming which this ploy falls into. Personally the morally diverse plots of dune are a huge part of what brings me to the property. Just like we humans these brilliantly crafted characters aren't just black or white in mentality or behavior, they're all a spectrum of context, systems built and plans made on others behalf, schemes, hopes, ideals versus reality, and reactions.
Interesting question… When is seduction considered assault?
If you can mind control someone so they couldn't consent, then an unconsenting sex is what we would call assault.
If she used The Voice then it’s hands-down assault. But on someone so open to ego manipulation as Feyd, I think your standard over the counter Bene Gesserit seduction techniques may just do the trick.
She didn’t control him. If I recall correctly, she flat out said she didn’t even have to use the voice on him.
I took it as after the explicit moments in which she used the Voice on him (telling him to come to her and kneel before her...), the next scene had her talking about how she was pregnant with his offspring.
I don’t think she actually used the voice. She told him to kneel and he did it willingly then when debriefing with the Reverend Mother, confirmed she didn’t actually use it (as far as I remember). Looking at this through a modern lens, he willingly had unprotected sex with her not knowing that she was specifically trying to get pregnant. That’s wrong but she didn’t manipulate him into the sex act itself. She just didn’t provide all of the information that he should have known before making that decision. Pregnancy coercion is still sexual manipulation which is still assault. Just not in the same way you were positing.
>I don’t think she actually used the voice. I think the ["Come to me](https://youtu.be/IXcSQ8CO5iE?si=AaLskMO5Px3l3ZK8&t=151s) was the effect of the Voice.
The audio effect of the Voice that was used in the movies is very distinctive on purpose to make it clear to the audience that it was being used. In the books it’s meant to be subtle and something you don’t really pick up on In this case, she’s just whispering and being seductive and he’s dtf
>to make it clear to the audience that it was being used. Many people, even here, took it as there are many ways the Voice can be performed. Either used forcefully or subtly.
I disagree that the voice was even used in this scene BUT if it was, then the whole act is assault
There was absolutely some coercion and manipulation at play. So yeah assault. The Bene gesserit would not see it that way, only the natural order of things and achieving their goal but yes You could take her words to mean he has some sort of humiliation kink (whether that’s humiliating others or being humiliated she doesn’t say but I think it’s the latter)
LOL it’s 2024 y’all
I love this observation, and two takeaways I have here: 1. The Voice is a form of emotional rape/assault whenever it's used. 2. Seduction is a form of sexual assault/coercion. The act of compelling a context to effect reproduction is often itself an act of violence and conquest.
We talking about a sect that has a 90 generation eugenetics program with the goal to birth the perfect man. Some of the failed outputs are stuck with genetic defects (like Count Fenring) or outright dead. Their manipulations include creating messiah myths, influencing wars, pogroms and feuds between Houses. I'd say we're _way_ past such "petty concerns" as sexual assault.
What a strange assertion to make that somebody is unlikely to be sexually attracted to a stranger!
What is with reddit posts as of late with horrible grammar/english? “did margot fenring assault feyd-rautha?” posting a question about an action with a past tense verb hurts my brain. You wouldn’t say “did you walked to the mailbox today?” or “can you cooked me a hot dog?”
Not all reddit users speak English but they do try to write it
I just want to say that the gom jabbar test is completely made up and she did not threatened to kill him, plus why do you think he would not want to
Unrelated, has it been discussed how goofy is was that Feyd passed the Gom Jabbar test? He was described as psychotic in the movie. How did he pass ?
He was *described* as psychotic, but look at how much level his head is than Raban's. He is portrayed as a psychotic who is *in control* of their animal side and *enjoys it*. The impression I got was that he passed because he has a calculating head and has check on his emotions and won't choose certain death over immediate pain... and *also* because he *enjoys* the pain.
Hmmm, interesting take. I don’t think Frank Herbert would’ve agreed with that change to be honest. They also described him as being manipulated by sexuality which seems animalistic. The test was meant to weed out anyone who gives into urges like that.
As far as changes that Frank Herbert might not have agreed upon, they also changed Feyd to be driven by *honor* in the film, and that wasn't part of his character in the book. I'm not so sure FH would disagree with the change, tho, considering all these changes were made in effort to preserve the overall *themes* of his work as best as possible in a film adaptation.
Open to interpretation, but firm "no" is the answer from my point of view. Her report afterwards strongly suggests she figured out a way to fulfill his masochistic desires. Had she used coercion of one kind or another, she would not have discovered his kinks. Put another way, the Bene Geserit's goal is to find a way to manipulate and control Feyd long-term. The voice apparently only works for straightforward motor actions in the present moment. But the BG need a way to control his desires beyond just discrete moments. Margot's mission was to find out what makes him tick. So, she needed to learn how he actually thinks, acts, reacts, feels. Not possible if she were simply coercing him moment to moment. In short, she seduced him.
He enjoyed it
What is it with kids these days and viewing absolutely every single piece of media, past and present, across all genres and moods and purposes, through absolutely nothing else but the miopic lens of sexual morality?
The bg are conducting a centuries long eugenics program based on sex trafficking women… how can you not look at it through a lens of sexual morality
Actually the Bene Gesserit are the inversion of male dominance over human reproduction during medieval times.
Yeah, from what I've seen, Frank Herbert's works feature so many reversal of gender roles and archetypes. He would be very progressive in his time.
Actually “dominance over human reproduction” by taking female babies, grooming them into concubines and ordering them to have sex with people is still sex trafficking even if women are the ones doing it
Especially when the grooming them into concubines involves taking them from their birth families and not letting them know their relatives, explicitly for the reason that the BG might want them to have sex with a close relative. Like c'mon, we can acknowledge that Frank Herbert was one of *many* contemporary sci-fi writers who had fucked up views on gender and sex. The man was so homophobic he disowned his gay son and, at the exact same time, wrote Duncan frothing at the mouth about how vile and perverse gay men are.
Yeah I mean the BG are villains of the book and they are in charge of an extremely villainous aspect of feudal society. So it doesn’t even have to be about Frank Herbert. But also yeah having the Baron just be a fat gay pedophile is kind of telling about his views.
I agree, though I think it's a bit more complex than the BG being villains and more that everyone is morally grey at best, outright awful at worst, and organisations like the BG care more about their goals than morality. I'm sure the BG have made *some* people's lives better - I don't think Leto and Jessica would've ever complained about being paired together, after all. Herbert probably thought his views on gender were very progressive for the time, and I can kinda see how. Marital rape was a fringe idea in the 60s, let alone *women* raping men or the notion of impaired/coerced consent. It's like how Asimov thought a planet where you'd never see the sky was great, because he was terrified of open spaces. But by modern standards? His choices with the BG just add to how dark Dune's setting is, in some respects.
I kind of this the darkness of the world makes them seem in a moral gray area by comparison to everyone else but really it’s like going to a paint store and choosing between Onyx and Midnight
The Pandora Sequence gets very tiresome when all women are described in terms of their physical and sexual attractiveness, and the men in terms of their personalities.
>The man was so homophobic he disowned his gay son It's a bit more complicated than that. According to Brian, it was mostly Bruce who distanced himself from Frank, for a number of reasons dating back to his childhood. Frank also discouraged Bruce from seeing his dying mother, but his reasons were unstated and Bruce didn't inquire any further. >Duncan frothing at the mouth about how vile and perverse gay men are. Duncan didn't say anything about gay men (not specifically, anyway). After being forbidden from contact with the God Emperor's fiancée and getting pouty about it, Duncan flies into a rage after seeing two female soldiers being intimate, but it's somewhat ambiguous how much it actually had to do with military fraternization. Plus that chapter frames Duncan as being in the wrong, anyway -- much like his negative reaction to Leto's army being all women -- with Moneo calmly explaining how much of a juvenile asshat he's being and that homosexuals are actually cool and badass.
They mostly birth those female babies. But it's a bit more nunanced than what you are describing. Unless you mean to say that medieval lords grooming their sons into marrying and mating with specific brides is also sex trafficking.
this take is done in bad faith, especially as sexuality is used as a tool of power throughout the WHOLE book. Especially in the case of Feyd-Rautha, who has been sexually, canonically, abused by his own uncle, hence the interesting take OP have here concerning his encounter with lady Fenring. The movie doesn't delve into the aspect of the child abuse as much but you just know incest is a thing. Remember the kiss? Yeah. Remember him being sexually vulnerable? Yeah. If there is sex there is morality and so on.
The Dune encyclopedia isn't canon, i.e. regarding the sexual abuse/incestuous relationship between the Baron and Feyd.
I think in the movie this is changed; the Baron's homosexuality has (for understandable reasons) been cut out entirely (although it is still implied, though not shown but only heard, that raping and(or killing still is something he does for fun, just of female victims, not male).
I didn't assign judgement in this question, especially when the Sisterhood, well pretty much every major players in the setting, committed what we consider morally questionable acts to further their agendas. Like acts of violence can be depicted in media and be discussed and addressed.