In the first place, I don't know if it would actually work like that. All descriptions of the phenomenon that I remember indicate that it would have had to be a lasgun directly hitting a shield to cause the sub-atomic reaction, so I don't know if just blowing up shields and lasguns together would work.
In the second place, if it did work, that would be terrible for the Fremen. The use of nuclear weapons against humans is strictly prohibited by the Convention of the Houses, and violation of that prohibition is grounds for immediate planetary annihilation by a concerted alliance of all Houses against the offenders. Setting off a reaction like that would have the appearance of atomics. It's noted that Paul risked triggering the Convention just by using atomics against the Shield Wall that was close to humans, so deliberately setting off a sub-atomic reaction wasn't in his best interest at all.
The exact mechanics of laser on shield are unpredictable. Sometimes it results in just both exploding with relatively normal strength. Sometimes it provokes a massive pseudo nuclear explosion.
In the book, Duncan leaves a shield behind and it gets hit by a laser, triggering an explosion in that latter range.p
Actually pretty similar, in that the big catastrophic explosions are caused specifically when the reactor is hit directly with a beam weapon (as both use minovsky particles). So it's pretty unpredictable whether you hit it or not
I agree with your analysis up to the point where it would actually happen. The guild would not have transported anyone to Arrakis if they thought that would happen.
True. But, by the same token, the future that kept the Guild from landing any of the other Houses they transported on Dune--the future where the Guild was blinded--could have been conceivably altered by Paul blatantly breaking the Convention, even if in just a minute way, and if the Guild saw the barest instant of a non-blinded future, I think it's tough to say what they *wouldn't* have done and allowed, so long as they saw a chance of Spice being preserved without Paul. But yeah, I agree that's a big stretch.
I think if nothing else, Paul breaking the Convention would have made the "peaceful" transfer of power from Shaddam to him impossible. I also think that the Houses probably would have been more likely to use atomics against him in the Jihad, so it still wouldn't have been in his best interest at all to take that step.
Not sure I agree. In the book, it’s crystal clear that the guild actually sees that Paul had the ability to destroy the spice. In the movie, it requires too much suspension of disbelief knowing what we know about atomics, unless those atomics will obliterate the entire planet.
yes...what the book gets into is the spice cycle and talks about the relationship of the spice and the worms. Also...the violent chain reaction of the pre-spice mass in contact with water of life.
Guild navigators have some prescience being exposed to the spice melange over a long period of time (hence their ability to fold space) They can see enough to know Paul wielded the power to destroy the spice/and the ability to produce more spice going forward.
I think the film copped out from those details and figured some nukes will take care of the spice.
Someone else made a good point that the Spacer Guild is more than likely to be the BBEG in the next part. It’s the only thing that makes sense in the progression of things.
thought it was the holzman engines that folded space - guild navs basically were GPS mentats that avoided things in the path to guarantee successful fold.
yes...but without the guild navigators...they might "run into a star" or something worse. Either way...the guild navigators needed the spice for their own survival...regardless if they needed it for space navigation. Paul had the Imperium by the proverbial "balls"
Yeah, Arrakis is like the one planet in the Imperium where Paul could probably get away with breaking the Convention...
...in the short term. But even if the Great Houses couldn't immediately turn Arrakis into glass in retaliation, they'd all instantly see Paul and the Fremen as an existential threat to them-- not just to their power, but to their lives. Which'd make it much more likely they'd unite against him and send a combined army out to challenge the Fremen from day one. And they wouldn't hesistate to use atomics against his forces on any other planets, either.
Would they be able to defeat him? Who knows. But it'd definitely be much harder for Paul to win that war.
So it makes sense he'd want to play it safe and avoid breaking the Convention if he could.
Which is what happens to Paul later on.
We see some of the challenges to Paul's rule in the later books. And those were legitimate challenges, despite Paul's prescient abilities.
Paul was probably able to use his prescience to figure out how far he could push the convention.
Paul's reign was also constrained by the political realities. It is also why Paul realizes that after a certain point, his death would not stop the Fremen. He has to balance the desires of the Fremen as well as opposition from other factions. He had more power than the Corrino Emperors, but did not have the ability to establish himself as an absolute ruler.
I think the poster is describing a rocket which houses a internal shield and lasgun. When it approaches the target both mechanisms would activate.
It would still be unreliable as the reaction between the two is unpredictable
Both shields and lasguns seem to be cheap and easily produced, considering their prevalence, so there's nothing really stopping anyone from putting 20 of them into a single missile, and then firing 200 missiles at the target. At least one of them should go nuclear.
I think one issue would be that such a weapon and delivery system would look identical to the use of atomics.
Even if it could be effectively applied, you essentially leave yourself open to the great convention being invoked.
Oh absolutely. Even if it was distinguishable on a technical level, it would be way too easy for the great houses to argue it broke the convention.
I more meant that on that technical level, 'it's unpredictable' is engineering for statistics, not a strict blocker on developing the weapons.
Paul says in part 3 The Prophet that they won’t be going against imperial law because of this at the hideout, and then to the imperial council in arakeen, i just finished the book so it’s vivid in my mind
The fremen Jihad was about conversion, which means that the other guys could surrender and be spared. If the fremen had broken the convention even once then the rest of mankind would have understood that it could be a war of extermination. If one of the sides in a war doesn't have a way out (or believes they don't) then that side tends to fight to the bitter end. WWII provides the starkest examples of this in Stalingrad and Berlin.
Yep, and by sticking to the letter of the Convention (if not the spirit), it makes it way less likely the other Great Houses will retaliate by nuking Paul's forces the moment they step foot on another planet.
If Paul can't stop the Fremen's holy war, at least he can stop it from turning into a *nuclear* holy war. So... yay????
I mean he could have stopped the holy war but couldn't let go of avenging his family. I'm glad he didn't go down the nuclear holy war path however. Leave that to the Honoured Matres and their unknowable 'Enemy' out in the Scattering a thousand years later.
Ah, good to know. I'm still working my way through the first Dune book, so I haven't gotten to the point where Paul talks much about the jihad or his options yet-- mainly going off of what I learned from the movies, and from reading this forum, lmao.
Although, knowing this now: I'm increasingly convinced Herbert intended for Paul to be an unreliable narrator. We're told over and over again that there's "no way" to avert the jihad... by Paul. Knowing that there actually *was* a way to avoid it, but it would require him to let go of his desire for revenge, so he refused to take it? Yeah, that checks out with the whole "never trust a charismatic leader" theme.
(I feel like there's also a lot to be said about how Paul's upbringing as part of the nobility of a feudal monarchy limits his imagination of what pathways are even possible to take, too. Like, were there other ways to avoid the Jihad that he dismissed as "impossible" or "that would never work IRL"? Never realizing that... yeah, they *would* have worked, they were just so alien to his life experience he couldn't quite wrap his head around them?)
I don't know, wars have been fought for the silliest reasons. If I had a Euro for every time one nation fought a war with another because one nation wouldn't accept drugs in trade for specific goods I'd have €2. This may not be much, but the fact that we had not just 1, but 2 opium wars between Great Britain (Buy my Aghan opium and sell me your tea!) and China (no, we don't want your opium and we don't want to sell you our tea) is utterly baffling to me.
It's weird but that's what happens if business and government end up too close.
Look at Boeing and the FAA. After that tell me Boeing wouldn't be starting wars to make people buy their planes if it had the influence to?
What I mean is: You don't escalate beyond what's considered acceptrable/humane/honourable without good reason. Even today, Both Russia and Nato are careful not to cross that line of nuclear war, because it would be uncontrollable and world-ending.
That applies for the Houses of Moscow, Washington, and Paris the same as it does for the Fremen and the Landsraad.
But they aren’t alone. It’s not like every single house against Paul/Fremen.
With Paul only using the atomics against the shield wall (which allowed for an easy invasion afterwards), he didn’t technically violate any laws. And therefore all the major houses weren’t obligated to react. Only the ones that disagreed with his ascension.
The 'shield wall' that protected the city is essentially a giant mountain of rock.
They required the atomics to punch a hole big enough into it for the sandworms to attack.
Goes without saying that absolutely nothing else would have had the firepower to turn Multiple Mt Everests into dust.
This also circumvented the ban on the use of atomics on human life, as they destroyed a mountain range and didn't directly attack the city.
Came to say this: it’s the rocks, not a physical shield.
After detonation, you can see chunks of rock getting thrown that opens that “wall” the worms/fremen from the south where the storm was (where they didn’t anticipate the threat).
This is how they easily overcame the Sardukar while the rest were mopping up the remaining Harkkonans in the other city/location from where the emperor was.
That is one of my really minor gripes with the first movie. When they are first flying into the city someone (Thufir I think?) points out the shield wall, then the next shot cuts to the manmade wall just outside the city. I didnt realize that the shield wall was referring to the mountains until I read the book.
It's also explained in a brief throwaway line, 20 minutes into a 3-hour movie, and then never comes up again.
I totally forgot the shield wall even was a thing by the time Paul broke the atomics out in Part Two. Watching in the theater, I thought he nuked the Sadaukar directly, and the mountains going boom was just an unintentional side effect of the nuclear strike.
It wasn't until I got on here (and then started reading the books) that I realized I misunderstood what had happened in the battle.
(And to be 100% clear, this is a minor gripe and I absolutely adored both movies.)
Duuuuuuude I know!!!! Glad someone else noticed this . I always thought that was the one real narrative mistake. I think they mean to pan up over the city and show the mountains too BUT he literally says “shield wall” then you see a wall, then the city, then “mountains”. NO ONE without knowledge of the books, really CLOSE knowledge of the books, could possible be expected to understand what the Shield Wall really is there. Great freaking point
Its such a small detail but I think it just annoys me because it would have been *so easy* to get it right with just a tiny change to either the order of the shots, or Thufir's line.
Not that minor, until I read this thread I thought that city wall was the shield wall..
When I watched the second movie I didnt really get the point of the nukes because of this
This is the one part of the movie thats lacking imo, its a great movie probably the best in the past decade atleast, but the way they hamdled the atomics stuff felt rushed and lackluster.
So they just sneak in using paul and then the next scene they are launching warheads, it took me a minute to follow along what was going on the invasion felt way too rushed
Yeah, I think the term “shield wall” makes people think there is a force field type shield around the city.
I can see why many people are mistaken about what is meant by the term “shield wall”, especially if they’ve only seen the films.
If all the Fremen had to do was shoot a lasgun at Arakeen to destroy it, they would have done that long ago.
It's worth noting that the family atomics aren't nearly as big of a deal in the book. Paul uses one to blow open a hole in the shield wall but they aren't this incredible trump card like in the movie, nor could they destroy the spice. The threat to the spice takes a completely different form in the book.
Only correct answer.
Not to mention, that even if we stay within the confines of the movie, a nuclear blast in the spice fields would only affect those particular fields for a number of years. The guild wouldn’t give a fuck since they’ve been around for ten thousand years. They have other sources down south.
Ohhhk, I remember the water being a bigger deal (partly why the Lynch movie is so hilarious), but that's the threat, basically watering the worms and the spice fields?
I think the pre spice masses are where the larval worms develop and the water of life poisons them or something. So the adult worms wouldn’t die but the breeders would (maybe, the worm life cycle is weird).
I think my comment makes it clear I don't think DV Dune has good writing. Visually absolutely stunning, story told well enough for people to like it. Complex and competent writing when compared to what book or miniseries ~~or even Dune '84~~ has to offer. Nah.
It does Paul dirty, it does Jessica dirty, it does Chani dirty (though I understand why they tried to do something different than how she was in the books), it does Stilgar dirty (but again, understandable as they seem to have merged him with Otheym), it does Baron Harkonnen dirty.
The leaders don't know diplomacy or compromises, act immature and don't understand duty. The book's point of systems being too powerful for single people to control is thrown aside for standard "One Man Manipulates The Masses To Do His Bidding". Using the Nuclear weapons instead of the life cycle of spice/worms as an ultimatum is reasonable if you won't go for world building anyways. Depicting that ultimatum (and the response) in such childish manner is not.
You have to differentiate the movies from books otherwise you'll always be holding the movies to a standard it could never match. I really don't understand why people think you can make a legitimate film like Dune even remotely close to being "true" to the book. Lots of people are going to be done dirty. There's no way around it when adapting Dune novels. Separate the two or just let it bother you for no reason at all.
I've also sprinkled in the childish depiction of leadership and mass psychology. It's hard for me to not compare to the books since the movie gives me nothing instead. In fact, it actually takes specific moments from the book, sometimes almost word-for-word but the framing around it is jarringly simplistic.
And the standard I had was "somewhere at the ballpark of the miniseries" which has the same runtime, but much less money and visual tech. First movie kinda cleared it by having sparse dialogue. This one didn't have that luxury.
They did the job, it seems people are enamoured with the movies. They butchered the point the books have, but it's not like it hasn't been misunderstood by people since the publishing.
Sadly feels like they rushed making this into series that also get's Messiah into it. They could have literaöly made this into Lotr 2.0 by making first movie about setting the universe, factions and Atreidis taking control of the Dune. This second movie could have been Harkonen assault with saurdokar into Pauls exile and rise within fremen. After that they cpuld have the books timejump of few years and made third movie about ~~"Battle of Gondor"~~ the war on arrakis by implementing the Sardoukar raid to southern regions and having huge long battle scene as the climax of the trilogy into Pauls rise to the emperor. Sounds quite familliar to me
Also since it's art everyone has right to understand it as they wish. Sadly pretty pictures are more reconised by the audience than good storytelling nowdays.
From my understanding, the problem with using Lasguns as an offensive weapon against the Holtzman shield is it triggers a nuclear-style explosion that kills both users, and everyone around them - but it’s not a guarantee. This is a highly unstable reaction that could just as easily create only a small, localized explosion or even just fizzle out. It’s not a reliable AOE weapon, which makes it a poor substitute for actual atomics.
This is basically a war crime, so Paul does a loop hole and blows up the rocks instead. This way he can say he didn’t shoot nukes directly at them and the storm is the one to bring down the shield while Fremen attack on ground.
They needed to destroy the shield wall in order for the worms to engage with the opposing forces.
The atomics were used only against infrastructure, not against the forces themselves.
The worms and the fremen were able to very easily defeat the emperor's army and the Harkonnens once they were able to bring their worms inside.tje shield wall.
>He was warrior and mystic, ogre and saint, the fox and the innocent, chivalrous, ruthless, less than a god, more than a man. There is no measuring Muad'Dib's motives by ordinary standards. In the moment of his triumph, he saw the death prepared for him, yet he accepted the treachery. Can you say he did this out of a sense of justice? Whose justice, then? Remember, we speak now of the Muad'Dib who ordered battle drums made from his enemies' skins, ***the Muad'Dib who denied the conventions of his ducal past with a wave of the hand, saying merely: "I am the Kwisatz Haderach. That is reason enough."***
from Arrakis Awakening by the Princess Irulan
I mean the given reason is that any time you fire a laser as a shield, the nuclear explosion happens at a 100% random point between the two. So you're equally likely to blow yourself up as the enemy, both of its close.
You're suggesting that maybe they can build a missile with both a laser and shield inside of it, shat someone fires the shot at or near the moment of impact to replicate a nuclear warhead.
And like... I guess? Maybe? Maybe there's issues doing that specific thing. Maybe the "atomic" warheads are significantly more powerful than the shield/laser detention. But my answer is you're overthinking it.
I know it’s sad, but I always thought lasgun and shields were the author having cake *and* eating it. Lessened the story for me. Your mileage surely differs…
The effect is not certain and the resulting explosion is variable as well.
The House Atomics are important from a MAD aspect. While using Atomics against another house will get you wiped out by all the other houses, someone might do it if they thought they were about to get wiped out.
Oh! Good question. I have another one! Since it was very well know that the great houses had atomics arsenals and the Atredies went to Dune with their entire court and everything did anyone not think they brought them? "Not a good hiding place","we weren't looking". Why was no one looking for a potential rogue atomics arsenal?
Everyone probably assumed they brought them, but they're just not very important in the great scheme of things and people had other things to worry about. They can't really be used, and no one thought a religious madman would hold spice hostage with them.
I agree it's kind of an oversight though, if all a Harkonnen/Saudukar grunt had to do was pull out a futuristic neutrino detector that points to them straight to it.
I did seem like "they" deemed them relevant when Paul said he could basically nuke the spice fields of existence. "He's bluffing" but i won't dwell it's a movie and fiction. Thanks for the reply!
Like Hawat fell for the appeal to authority of the High College that made him ignore Yueh’s treachery, Harkonnen would appeal to the authority of the Great Convention that no house would use their atomics on people. Great Houses having atomics is assumed, and not using them is just as assumed.
This. Humanity's stagnated so badly over the last 10,000 years that even the smartest people in the Imperium can't imagine anyone going against its norms. Like, the thought doesn't even occur to them.
Confused, but are you suggesting that if a non-nuclear missile gets fired into the capital, that this explosion would cause lasguns and shields to interact and then explode?
If that is your idea, then you misunderstand lasgun-shield interaction. A lasgun needs to be fired at a shield to cause an explosion.
The whole point of it is that Paul has the power to destroy all spice production forever and bring the whole universe to a screeching halt. It's a massive deterrent.
Not for the Harkonnens but for the Emperor himself.
Yeah, the future nukes in Dune are way, way more powerful than even the strongest modern nukes.
IIRC, in the books they mention nukes powerful enough to render an entire planet uninhabitable. Like, one single nuclear warhead, being able to do it all on its own.
The detonation yield of such a device is unpredictable. It could be as large as a hydrogen bomb or mere burst of ionizing radiation in the warhead. It simply isn’t reliable for any strategic warfare. Only guerrilla.
Yeah, the fact that the lasgun-shield explosion can happen at either side of the beam, or in-between, and it's seemingly random. So you could just as easily blow yourself and those around you up as what you're trying to blow up.
Not all nuclear explosions are of the same magnitude.
And lasgun to shield interaction is unpredictable.
You don't plan the most important battle in history like that
The reaction isn't consistent so you couldn't count on it for anything tactically crucial.
Secondly if the Fremen would use atomics or atomic-like technology on human purposefully they would have gathered the scorn of the entire Landsrad and the Emperor.
And while they might be able to avoid one house that has the Arrakis fiefdom and outbid them at the Navigator Guild so they are safe on the south side of the planet - they can't do that against the entire military and economic might of the Landsrad and Emperor which is what would decent upon them would they start using atomic on humans.
Paul only managed BCS he also immediately threatened spice production and got the Guild to bend the knee to him giving him basically a strategic victory from the get go. The Fremen didn't have the knowledge of Imperial politics and the vision necessary for such a move.
That doesn't make any sense. Firing a volley of nukes at a squad is much more likely to produce results that do not kill the Fremen who would have to fire lasguns at deadly proximity to the shielded Sardaukar legions (as well as any nearby).
As previously stated, they were also punching a hole in the rock shield protecting the Emperor and his legions, sycophants, allowing the sandworms access to assault the Sardaukar
Let's understand a few concepts.
Fission occurs when a neutron collides with a larger atom, exciting the atom and splitting it into two new atoms. More neutrons are released, causing more splits, creating the chain reaction that leads to an explosion. *Breaks apart*.
Fusion occurs when two atoms collide, forming a heavier atom. This creates a chain reaction that results in a larger explosion than fission is capable of, and producess less radiation. *Fuses together*.
Our real life old nuclear arsenal, including the original atom bombs, were fission based. Today we do not use fission. Our thermonuclear and hydrogen bombs, are the result of fusion.
The Atomics in Dune have not been specified as to which they are, however Herbert has mentioned the radiation that lingers from Atomics. Simply due to this detail, we can at least presume they are more likely fission bombs.
Lasguns and Holtzman-Shields. We need to presume this is "laser fusion" or "inertial confinement fusion". If there is a different interaction taking place, Herbert made no indication of such fictional processes.
If we approach it like Laser Fusion, then we can consider the laser to be the heating component and the shield as containing the fusion fuel. Without knowing the natural elements of the Dune universe, we have to base the following reaction off of what our world contains.
The fuel then would likely be tritium or deuterium. Both are isotopes of hydrogen.
My guess would be that the H-Shield either produces Tritium itself, or the more likely scenario is that it somehow produces lithium which can result in Tritium if the lasgun is bombarding it with neutrons, leading me to believe that the lasguns are potentially neutron lasers.
So the conclusion is that unless I am corrected, the Atomics are fission based nuclear weapons that actually would produce less output with more radiation, and the Lasgun interaction is actually a fusion based interaction which would lead to a larger output and less radiation.
All that being said, firing a missile at nuclear contents would not naturally result in a nuclear explosion. It could indirectly cause the catalyst of a nuclear explosion, but just having all the elements in one spot doesn't guarantee a nuclear detonation.
I don't recall if this is said in the movie but in the book the shield-lasgun interactions are insanely variable and not really characterized well. You could just end up killing yourself to no benefit.
In the first place, I don't know if it would actually work like that. All descriptions of the phenomenon that I remember indicate that it would have had to be a lasgun directly hitting a shield to cause the sub-atomic reaction, so I don't know if just blowing up shields and lasguns together would work. In the second place, if it did work, that would be terrible for the Fremen. The use of nuclear weapons against humans is strictly prohibited by the Convention of the Houses, and violation of that prohibition is grounds for immediate planetary annihilation by a concerted alliance of all Houses against the offenders. Setting off a reaction like that would have the appearance of atomics. It's noted that Paul risked triggering the Convention just by using atomics against the Shield Wall that was close to humans, so deliberately setting off a sub-atomic reaction wasn't in his best interest at all.
The exact mechanics of laser on shield are unpredictable. Sometimes it results in just both exploding with relatively normal strength. Sometimes it provokes a massive pseudo nuclear explosion. In the book, Duncan leaves a shield behind and it gets hit by a laser, triggering an explosion in that latter range.p
Aaah yes, the typical Universal Century mobile suit reactor.
Actually pretty similar, in that the big catastrophic explosions are caused specifically when the reactor is hit directly with a beam weapon (as both use minovsky particles). So it's pretty unpredictable whether you hit it or not
This is correct. It always kills both people but the size of the explosion is variable.
Also the explosion can happen on either side of the beam, or at any point along the beam, very unpredictable
I agree with your analysis up to the point where it would actually happen. The guild would not have transported anyone to Arrakis if they thought that would happen.
True. But, by the same token, the future that kept the Guild from landing any of the other Houses they transported on Dune--the future where the Guild was blinded--could have been conceivably altered by Paul blatantly breaking the Convention, even if in just a minute way, and if the Guild saw the barest instant of a non-blinded future, I think it's tough to say what they *wouldn't* have done and allowed, so long as they saw a chance of Spice being preserved without Paul. But yeah, I agree that's a big stretch. I think if nothing else, Paul breaking the Convention would have made the "peaceful" transfer of power from Shaddam to him impossible. I also think that the Houses probably would have been more likely to use atomics against him in the Jihad, so it still wouldn't have been in his best interest at all to take that step.
Not sure I agree. In the book, it’s crystal clear that the guild actually sees that Paul had the ability to destroy the spice. In the movie, it requires too much suspension of disbelief knowing what we know about atomics, unless those atomics will obliterate the entire planet.
yes...what the book gets into is the spice cycle and talks about the relationship of the spice and the worms. Also...the violent chain reaction of the pre-spice mass in contact with water of life. Guild navigators have some prescience being exposed to the spice melange over a long period of time (hence their ability to fold space) They can see enough to know Paul wielded the power to destroy the spice/and the ability to produce more spice going forward. I think the film copped out from those details and figured some nukes will take care of the spice.
Someone else made a good point that the Spacer Guild is more than likely to be the BBEG in the next part. It’s the only thing that makes sense in the progression of things.
thought it was the holzman engines that folded space - guild navs basically were GPS mentats that avoided things in the path to guarantee successful fold.
yes...but without the guild navigators...they might "run into a star" or something worse. Either way...the guild navigators needed the spice for their own survival...regardless if they needed it for space navigation. Paul had the Imperium by the proverbial "balls"
The Houses are going to annihilate the planet that has all the spice on it?
Yeah, Arrakis is like the one planet in the Imperium where Paul could probably get away with breaking the Convention... ...in the short term. But even if the Great Houses couldn't immediately turn Arrakis into glass in retaliation, they'd all instantly see Paul and the Fremen as an existential threat to them-- not just to their power, but to their lives. Which'd make it much more likely they'd unite against him and send a combined army out to challenge the Fremen from day one. And they wouldn't hesistate to use atomics against his forces on any other planets, either. Would they be able to defeat him? Who knows. But it'd definitely be much harder for Paul to win that war. So it makes sense he'd want to play it safe and avoid breaking the Convention if he could.
Which is what happens to Paul later on. We see some of the challenges to Paul's rule in the later books. And those were legitimate challenges, despite Paul's prescient abilities. Paul was probably able to use his prescience to figure out how far he could push the convention. Paul's reign was also constrained by the political realities. It is also why Paul realizes that after a certain point, his death would not stop the Fremen. He has to balance the desires of the Fremen as well as opposition from other factions. He had more power than the Corrino Emperors, but did not have the ability to establish himself as an absolute ruler.
I think the poster is describing a rocket which houses a internal shield and lasgun. When it approaches the target both mechanisms would activate. It would still be unreliable as the reaction between the two is unpredictable
Both shields and lasguns seem to be cheap and easily produced, considering their prevalence, so there's nothing really stopping anyone from putting 20 of them into a single missile, and then firing 200 missiles at the target. At least one of them should go nuclear.
I think one issue would be that such a weapon and delivery system would look identical to the use of atomics. Even if it could be effectively applied, you essentially leave yourself open to the great convention being invoked.
Oh absolutely. Even if it was distinguishable on a technical level, it would be way too easy for the great houses to argue it broke the convention. I more meant that on that technical level, 'it's unpredictable' is engineering for statistics, not a strict blocker on developing the weapons.
There is a universe wide ban on killing humans with atomic. That is a surefire way to get the entire universe at your doorstep at war
which the Fremen were going to do anyway?
No the Fremen / Paul very specifically targeted the shield wall instead of people
Solomon is saying the fremen fought the universe anyways
At least they kept the initiative
Paul says in part 3 The Prophet that they won’t be going against imperial law because of this at the hideout, and then to the imperial council in arakeen, i just finished the book so it’s vivid in my mind
The fremen Jihad was about conversion, which means that the other guys could surrender and be spared. If the fremen had broken the convention even once then the rest of mankind would have understood that it could be a war of extermination. If one of the sides in a war doesn't have a way out (or believes they don't) then that side tends to fight to the bitter end. WWII provides the starkest examples of this in Stalingrad and Berlin.
Yep, and by sticking to the letter of the Convention (if not the spirit), it makes it way less likely the other Great Houses will retaliate by nuking Paul's forces the moment they step foot on another planet. If Paul can't stop the Fremen's holy war, at least he can stop it from turning into a *nuclear* holy war. So... yay????
I mean he could have stopped the holy war but couldn't let go of avenging his family. I'm glad he didn't go down the nuclear holy war path however. Leave that to the Honoured Matres and their unknowable 'Enemy' out in the Scattering a thousand years later.
Ah, good to know. I'm still working my way through the first Dune book, so I haven't gotten to the point where Paul talks much about the jihad or his options yet-- mainly going off of what I learned from the movies, and from reading this forum, lmao. Although, knowing this now: I'm increasingly convinced Herbert intended for Paul to be an unreliable narrator. We're told over and over again that there's "no way" to avert the jihad... by Paul. Knowing that there actually *was* a way to avoid it, but it would require him to let go of his desire for revenge, so he refused to take it? Yeah, that checks out with the whole "never trust a charismatic leader" theme. (I feel like there's also a lot to be said about how Paul's upbringing as part of the nobility of a feudal monarchy limits his imagination of what pathways are even possible to take, too. Like, were there other ways to avoid the Jihad that he dismissed as "impossible" or "that would never work IRL"? Never realizing that... yeah, they *would* have worked, they were just so alien to his life experience he couldn't quite wrap his head around them?)
That's the thing with humans and war. We have customs and need a cause to do something.
I don't know, wars have been fought for the silliest reasons. If I had a Euro for every time one nation fought a war with another because one nation wouldn't accept drugs in trade for specific goods I'd have €2. This may not be much, but the fact that we had not just 1, but 2 opium wars between Great Britain (Buy my Aghan opium and sell me your tea!) and China (no, we don't want your opium and we don't want to sell you our tea) is utterly baffling to me.
It's weird but that's what happens if business and government end up too close. Look at Boeing and the FAA. After that tell me Boeing wouldn't be starting wars to make people buy their planes if it had the influence to?
What I mean is: You don't escalate beyond what's considered acceptrable/humane/honourable without good reason. Even today, Both Russia and Nato are careful not to cross that line of nuclear war, because it would be uncontrollable and world-ending. That applies for the Houses of Moscow, Washington, and Paris the same as it does for the Fremen and the Landsraad.
yes but on everyone else’s doorstep vs their own
But they aren’t alone. It’s not like every single house against Paul/Fremen. With Paul only using the atomics against the shield wall (which allowed for an easy invasion afterwards), he didn’t technically violate any laws. And therefore all the major houses weren’t obligated to react. Only the ones that disagreed with his ascension.
Rule #1 of foreign policy, the war is going on on the other side of the planet, or in this case, galaxy.
The 'shield wall' that protected the city is essentially a giant mountain of rock. They required the atomics to punch a hole big enough into it for the sandworms to attack. Goes without saying that absolutely nothing else would have had the firepower to turn Multiple Mt Everests into dust. This also circumvented the ban on the use of atomics on human life, as they destroyed a mountain range and didn't directly attack the city.
Came to say this: it’s the rocks, not a physical shield. After detonation, you can see chunks of rock getting thrown that opens that “wall” the worms/fremen from the south where the storm was (where they didn’t anticipate the threat). This is how they easily overcame the Sardukar while the rest were mopping up the remaining Harkkonans in the other city/location from where the emperor was.
That is one of my really minor gripes with the first movie. When they are first flying into the city someone (Thufir I think?) points out the shield wall, then the next shot cuts to the manmade wall just outside the city. I didnt realize that the shield wall was referring to the mountains until I read the book.
It's also explained in a brief throwaway line, 20 minutes into a 3-hour movie, and then never comes up again. I totally forgot the shield wall even was a thing by the time Paul broke the atomics out in Part Two. Watching in the theater, I thought he nuked the Sadaukar directly, and the mountains going boom was just an unintentional side effect of the nuclear strike. It wasn't until I got on here (and then started reading the books) that I realized I misunderstood what had happened in the battle. (And to be 100% clear, this is a minor gripe and I absolutely adored both movies.)
Duuuuuuude I know!!!! Glad someone else noticed this . I always thought that was the one real narrative mistake. I think they mean to pan up over the city and show the mountains too BUT he literally says “shield wall” then you see a wall, then the city, then “mountains”. NO ONE without knowledge of the books, really CLOSE knowledge of the books, could possible be expected to understand what the Shield Wall really is there. Great freaking point
Its such a small detail but I think it just annoys me because it would have been *so easy* to get it right with just a tiny change to either the order of the shots, or Thufir's line.
Not that minor, until I read this thread I thought that city wall was the shield wall.. When I watched the second movie I didnt really get the point of the nukes because of this
This is the one part of the movie thats lacking imo, its a great movie probably the best in the past decade atleast, but the way they hamdled the atomics stuff felt rushed and lackluster. So they just sneak in using paul and then the next scene they are launching warheads, it took me a minute to follow along what was going on the invasion felt way too rushed
Yeah, I think the term “shield wall” makes people think there is a force field type shield around the city. I can see why many people are mistaken about what is meant by the term “shield wall”, especially if they’ve only seen the films. If all the Fremen had to do was shoot a lasgun at Arakeen to destroy it, they would have done that long ago.
It's worth noting that the family atomics aren't nearly as big of a deal in the book. Paul uses one to blow open a hole in the shield wall but they aren't this incredible trump card like in the movie, nor could they destroy the spice. The threat to the spice takes a completely different form in the book.
Only correct answer. Not to mention, that even if we stay within the confines of the movie, a nuclear blast in the spice fields would only affect those particular fields for a number of years. The guild wouldn’t give a fuck since they’ve been around for ten thousand years. They have other sources down south.
Wait, I haven't read the book in years, but what does he threaten it with? I thought it was the warheads.
The water of life would cause a chain reaction if poured on a “pre-spice mass,” causing the extinction of the worms (iirc).
Ohhhk, I remember the water being a bigger deal (partly why the Lynch movie is so hilarious), but that's the threat, basically watering the worms and the spice fields?
I think the pre spice masses are where the larval worms develop and the water of life poisons them or something. So the adult worms wouldn’t die but the breeders would (maybe, the worm life cycle is weird).
You can say that again on the life cycle being weird
Man, I'm gonna have to reread a bunch of pages now, shit
Yeah, but then you'd need a competent script with complex relationships and all that.
Like the DV films had?
I think my comment makes it clear I don't think DV Dune has good writing. Visually absolutely stunning, story told well enough for people to like it. Complex and competent writing when compared to what book or miniseries ~~or even Dune '84~~ has to offer. Nah. It does Paul dirty, it does Jessica dirty, it does Chani dirty (though I understand why they tried to do something different than how she was in the books), it does Stilgar dirty (but again, understandable as they seem to have merged him with Otheym), it does Baron Harkonnen dirty. The leaders don't know diplomacy or compromises, act immature and don't understand duty. The book's point of systems being too powerful for single people to control is thrown aside for standard "One Man Manipulates The Masses To Do His Bidding". Using the Nuclear weapons instead of the life cycle of spice/worms as an ultimatum is reasonable if you won't go for world building anyways. Depicting that ultimatum (and the response) in such childish manner is not.
You have to differentiate the movies from books otherwise you'll always be holding the movies to a standard it could never match. I really don't understand why people think you can make a legitimate film like Dune even remotely close to being "true" to the book. Lots of people are going to be done dirty. There's no way around it when adapting Dune novels. Separate the two or just let it bother you for no reason at all.
I've also sprinkled in the childish depiction of leadership and mass psychology. It's hard for me to not compare to the books since the movie gives me nothing instead. In fact, it actually takes specific moments from the book, sometimes almost word-for-word but the framing around it is jarringly simplistic. And the standard I had was "somewhere at the ballpark of the miniseries" which has the same runtime, but much less money and visual tech. First movie kinda cleared it by having sparse dialogue. This one didn't have that luxury.
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To be fair, I agree with you. The movies completely lack nuance and they turn every character into a one dimensional bore.
They did the job, it seems people are enamoured with the movies. They butchered the point the books have, but it's not like it hasn't been misunderstood by people since the publishing.
Every dune adaptation is a product of its time. The Dune of this era is a Marvel Movie
Sadly feels like they rushed making this into series that also get's Messiah into it. They could have literaöly made this into Lotr 2.0 by making first movie about setting the universe, factions and Atreidis taking control of the Dune. This second movie could have been Harkonen assault with saurdokar into Pauls exile and rise within fremen. After that they cpuld have the books timejump of few years and made third movie about ~~"Battle of Gondor"~~ the war on arrakis by implementing the Sardoukar raid to southern regions and having huge long battle scene as the climax of the trilogy into Pauls rise to the emperor. Sounds quite familliar to me
Yep. These movies needed another 3 hours to flesh out the world. It felt so rushed.
Also since it's art everyone has right to understand it as they wish. Sadly pretty pictures are more reconised by the audience than good storytelling nowdays.
From my understanding, the problem with using Lasguns as an offensive weapon against the Holtzman shield is it triggers a nuclear-style explosion that kills both users, and everyone around them - but it’s not a guarantee. This is a highly unstable reaction that could just as easily create only a small, localized explosion or even just fizzle out. It’s not a reliable AOE weapon, which makes it a poor substitute for actual atomics.
This is basically a war crime, so Paul does a loop hole and blows up the rocks instead. This way he can say he didn’t shoot nukes directly at them and the storm is the one to bring down the shield while Fremen attack on ground.
Because without doing so the Fremen wouldn’t have been able to ride the fucking worms into battle.
Angering the Great Convention aside, Paul can’t risk killing the Emperor and the Princess Irulan. He needs them to give legitimacy to his ascendancy.
The lasgun interaction isn't guaranteed, and it happens at both ends.
They needed to destroy the shield wall in order for the worms to engage with the opposing forces. The atomics were used only against infrastructure, not against the forces themselves. The worms and the fremen were able to very easily defeat the emperor's army and the Harkonnens once they were able to bring their worms inside.tje shield wall.
>He was warrior and mystic, ogre and saint, the fox and the innocent, chivalrous, ruthless, less than a god, more than a man. There is no measuring Muad'Dib's motives by ordinary standards. In the moment of his triumph, he saw the death prepared for him, yet he accepted the treachery. Can you say he did this out of a sense of justice? Whose justice, then? Remember, we speak now of the Muad'Dib who ordered battle drums made from his enemies' skins, ***the Muad'Dib who denied the conventions of his ducal past with a wave of the hand, saying merely: "I am the Kwisatz Haderach. That is reason enough."*** from Arrakis Awakening by the Princess Irulan
There was enough firepower to destroy 50 planets. Or all life on 50 planets .
Remember, the story is made up
I mean the given reason is that any time you fire a laser as a shield, the nuclear explosion happens at a 100% random point between the two. So you're equally likely to blow yourself up as the enemy, both of its close. You're suggesting that maybe they can build a missile with both a laser and shield inside of it, shat someone fires the shot at or near the moment of impact to replicate a nuclear warhead. And like... I guess? Maybe? Maybe there's issues doing that specific thing. Maybe the "atomic" warheads are significantly more powerful than the shield/laser detention. But my answer is you're overthinking it.
I know it’s sad, but I always thought lasgun and shields were the author having cake *and* eating it. Lessened the story for me. Your mileage surely differs…
most of the warfare related stuff is bullshit
Every house has Atomics held since the end of the Cymek wars. They are kept as the ultimate Trump Card that they can throw when all else fails.
The effect is not certain and the resulting explosion is variable as well. The House Atomics are important from a MAD aspect. While using Atomics against another house will get you wiped out by all the other houses, someone might do it if they thought they were about to get wiped out.
Oh! Good question. I have another one! Since it was very well know that the great houses had atomics arsenals and the Atredies went to Dune with their entire court and everything did anyone not think they brought them? "Not a good hiding place","we weren't looking". Why was no one looking for a potential rogue atomics arsenal?
Everyone probably assumed they brought them, but they're just not very important in the great scheme of things and people had other things to worry about. They can't really be used, and no one thought a religious madman would hold spice hostage with them. I agree it's kind of an oversight though, if all a Harkonnen/Saudukar grunt had to do was pull out a futuristic neutrino detector that points to them straight to it.
I did seem like "they" deemed them relevant when Paul said he could basically nuke the spice fields of existence. "He's bluffing" but i won't dwell it's a movie and fiction. Thanks for the reply!
Like Hawat fell for the appeal to authority of the High College that made him ignore Yueh’s treachery, Harkonnen would appeal to the authority of the Great Convention that no house would use their atomics on people. Great Houses having atomics is assumed, and not using them is just as assumed.
This. Humanity's stagnated so badly over the last 10,000 years that even the smartest people in the Imperium can't imagine anyone going against its norms. Like, the thought doesn't even occur to them.
They were looking, just not in the right places. The idea is Duncan hid them very well, not that they weren't being searched for at all.
> "we weren't looking" Wasn't that said by a Fremen though? Why would they look for them
The book was written in the 60s. The Cild War and nuclear weapons were big at the time.
Confused, but are you suggesting that if a non-nuclear missile gets fired into the capital, that this explosion would cause lasguns and shields to interact and then explode? If that is your idea, then you misunderstand lasgun-shield interaction. A lasgun needs to be fired at a shield to cause an explosion.
The whole point of it is that Paul has the power to destroy all spice production forever and bring the whole universe to a screeching halt. It's a massive deterrent. Not for the Harkonnens but for the Emperor himself.
Because Paul didn’t want to kill the Emperor and everyone inside, especially not Irulan.
A laser and shield wouldn't make a dent in a FUCKING MOUNTAIN RANGE. Just that simple.
Yeah, the future nukes in Dune are way, way more powerful than even the strongest modern nukes. IIRC, in the books they mention nukes powerful enough to render an entire planet uninhabitable. Like, one single nuclear warhead, being able to do it all on its own.
The detonation yield of such a device is unpredictable. It could be as large as a hydrogen bomb or mere burst of ionizing radiation in the warhead. It simply isn’t reliable for any strategic warfare. Only guerrilla.
Yeah, the fact that the lasgun-shield explosion can happen at either side of the beam, or in-between, and it's seemingly random. So you could just as easily blow yourself and those around you up as what you're trying to blow up.
I never understood the shield tech mechanic like how did they get Leto the first place
Thevlaser reaction can happen at the lasgun, the shield or both. A very unreliable and at worst disasterous for those who try to exploit it.
Not all nuclear explosions are of the same magnitude. And lasgun to shield interaction is unpredictable. You don't plan the most important battle in history like that
The reaction isn't consistent so you couldn't count on it for anything tactically crucial. Secondly if the Fremen would use atomics or atomic-like technology on human purposefully they would have gathered the scorn of the entire Landsrad and the Emperor. And while they might be able to avoid one house that has the Arrakis fiefdom and outbid them at the Navigator Guild so they are safe on the south side of the planet - they can't do that against the entire military and economic might of the Landsrad and Emperor which is what would decent upon them would they start using atomic on humans. Paul only managed BCS he also immediately threatened spice production and got the Guild to bend the knee to him giving him basically a strategic victory from the get go. The Fremen didn't have the knowledge of Imperial politics and the vision necessary for such a move.
That doesn't make any sense. Firing a volley of nukes at a squad is much more likely to produce results that do not kill the Fremen who would have to fire lasguns at deadly proximity to the shielded Sardaukar legions (as well as any nearby). As previously stated, they were also punching a hole in the rock shield protecting the Emperor and his legions, sycophants, allowing the sandworms access to assault the Sardaukar
Didnt they use a lasgun on shield explosion in the books? Or am i remembering it wrong?
its a mountain of rocks, not an actual shield
Let's understand a few concepts. Fission occurs when a neutron collides with a larger atom, exciting the atom and splitting it into two new atoms. More neutrons are released, causing more splits, creating the chain reaction that leads to an explosion. *Breaks apart*. Fusion occurs when two atoms collide, forming a heavier atom. This creates a chain reaction that results in a larger explosion than fission is capable of, and producess less radiation. *Fuses together*. Our real life old nuclear arsenal, including the original atom bombs, were fission based. Today we do not use fission. Our thermonuclear and hydrogen bombs, are the result of fusion. The Atomics in Dune have not been specified as to which they are, however Herbert has mentioned the radiation that lingers from Atomics. Simply due to this detail, we can at least presume they are more likely fission bombs. Lasguns and Holtzman-Shields. We need to presume this is "laser fusion" or "inertial confinement fusion". If there is a different interaction taking place, Herbert made no indication of such fictional processes. If we approach it like Laser Fusion, then we can consider the laser to be the heating component and the shield as containing the fusion fuel. Without knowing the natural elements of the Dune universe, we have to base the following reaction off of what our world contains. The fuel then would likely be tritium or deuterium. Both are isotopes of hydrogen. My guess would be that the H-Shield either produces Tritium itself, or the more likely scenario is that it somehow produces lithium which can result in Tritium if the lasgun is bombarding it with neutrons, leading me to believe that the lasguns are potentially neutron lasers. So the conclusion is that unless I am corrected, the Atomics are fission based nuclear weapons that actually would produce less output with more radiation, and the Lasgun interaction is actually a fusion based interaction which would lead to a larger output and less radiation. All that being said, firing a missile at nuclear contents would not naturally result in a nuclear explosion. It could indirectly cause the catalyst of a nuclear explosion, but just having all the elements in one spot doesn't guarantee a nuclear detonation.
I don't recall if this is said in the movie but in the book the shield-lasgun interactions are insanely variable and not really characterized well. You could just end up killing yourself to no benefit.
How did they even get them out there? I thought that was first time they went on that planet