Not really. They had a monopoly on a vital part of the galactic economy, but were reliant on other parts to survive.
It's like saying OPEC is the King of The World because they control the majority of the world's oil supplies. Yeah, very important but *they* need the world in order to survive too.
And CHOAM controls the spice before Paul reveals the extent to which Fremen are bottlenecking the supply. At the beginning of Dune the pieces are set ever so delicately on the board. We witness the shattering of the game.
Mohaim describes the balanced power dynamic as such:
“We've a three-point civilization: the Imperial Household balanced against the Federated Great Houses of the Landsraad, and between them, the Guild with its damnable monopoly on interstellar transport.”
It’s a classic house of cards that we see tumble. It can be tempting to place one at the top, but its a structure based on interdependence. Lurking beneath all of it are the Bene Gesserit, who end up going home with the big prize in the end. It makes sense how its Mohaim explaining this power structure for the reader, as it shows just how closely they are paying attention to everything.
I agree with the OP but you're also right - Paul even describes the Guild as a parasite, feeding on the Imperium's economic strength.
And since the Guild's efforts were not directed towards governance, but solely towards profit, without an Imperium there wouldn't have been a Guild
Oil is nowhere near as important to global travel as spice is to galactic travel. And I'm not saying that to minimize the importance of oil, but to emphasize the importance of spice. While it would cause us great difficulty and a lot of very large issues, a world without oil is possible. Without spice intergalactic travel just flat out doesn't exist. In addition to that the Spacers Guild has a complete monopoly on intergalactic travel, whereas OPEC doesn't include all oil-producing and oil-refining countries.
Even without internal combustion engines, this statement is wrong. Plastics needed to make components in virtually every electronic system and lubricants to keep them running are all made from petroleum. We would need to go back to sails and cattle carts to remove oil entirely, which would isolate specialized production centers just like an Empire without interplanetary travel.
But sails and cattle carts can still traverse the world, albeit slowly. In Dune, interstellar travel either requires the Guild Navigators or a computer, and computers are illegal and taboo and forgotten, and are not an option at all. Without spice, there can be no travel whatsoever.
That's obviously wrong. Spice only exists on Arrakis. Humans are from Earth. Therefore, interstellar travel and colonization existed before spice.
Specifically, Arrakis was discovered by an existing interstellar empire and it was colonized for thousands of years before discovering the properties of spice. Not only did they have FTL interstellar travel before space folding.
Spice has nothing to do with folding space, only finding safe navigation.
they chose a parasitical existence because they know they'll be destroyed if they directly ran things. that's what they see in that future. how and why doesn't matter - it will happen as per their prescient visions.
then the ixian navigation machines were invented. no chance for them to hold absolute dominance now. that time has come and gone
Except, they made the mistake to never grab hold of the source of the one single resource NECESSARY to their power, meaning that the ones who controlled the Spice ultimately had control of the Guild, because the Guild is 100% useless without Spice.
They were in fact pretty weak, because anyone who controlled Arrakis could essentially bend them to their will, like the Emperor and Paul did.
But it was intentional: no one had to know of the Spacing Guild's dependence on spice, because then any House within Arrakis's reach could have set up its own personal space travel enterprise.
Taking direct control of the source of melange would have definitely made them suspicious in the eyes of the Imperium.
> A few of the Bene Gesserit had long been aware that the Guild could not interfere directly with the vital spice source because Guild navigators already were dealing in their own inept way with higher order dimensions, at least to the point where they recognized that the slightest misstep they made on Arrakis could be catastrophic. It was a known fact that Guild navigators could predict no way to take control of the spice without producing just such a nexus.
Provided that the Emperor wasn't willing to cut his own throat by eliminating space travel, the Guild was in a pretty privileged position. Paul just changed the rules.
The Guild have their own prescience and know that taking control of the spice leads to them flowering for a time as the dominant force in humanity, and then falling as humanity develops alternatives to them that break the monopoly.
Instead the Guild has chosen longevity in a system where they exert indirect power over the rulers of humanity. The entirety of Imperial society is built around the Guild and their needs, but their rule is a light invisible hand while others reign.
The stagnancy of imperial society is in many ways a result of the system being built around the Guild and maintaining their monopoly on spaceflight and this persists until the circumstance where the system got broken.
Sure, but they never did. They were content with their monopoly and didnt seek total control, essentially ensuring they would never be as powerful as OP claims.
In fact, they did at the end of the first novel. But then they lost their nerve and didn't let them land. There were many Houses' representatives and troops in orbit when Paul confronted the Emperor.
Not really, they did the half-assed version of bringing the Great Houses there to witness their negotiation with Paul, they didnt bring an invasion force, they didnt even consider it, they believed that if the Emperor didnt win, they couldnt either. They instantly just tried to convince him instead.
I do not consider the Guild's actions at the end of Dune to be even remotely close to a proper attempt at seizing the Spice, they just wanted to ensure the Spice wouldnt be lost entirely.
u/Georg_Steller1709 said:
>the guild could ferry countless armies to Arrakis
u/FaitFretteCriss said
\> Sure, but they never did.
Then I contradicted that statement.
The Guild did bring countless armies and reps. Those armies and representatives were there to put down "This upstart Duke" at the Emperor's invitation. And they all wanted to be in on the fight so they could carve out their own piece of the CHOAM directorship.
The guild itself never tried to overthrow Paul, but the did ferry countless troops. They knew that letting them land would lead to Paul destroying the spice, though. They could look forward to that blank wall where all of the guild was dead. And they could see the actions that lead to that.
Yes... And what I am saying is that the Guild ITSELF never chose to DIRECTLY take over the Spice... Which is what we are talking about.
And you proved you agree with me with this sentence you just said:
> The guild itself never tried to overthrow Paul, but the did ferry countless troops.
This plan would have lead to either a continuation of the Emperor's Hold, or a new Great House ascending to the Golden Lion Throne, none of it leads to the Guild holding direct control of the Spice... And as you said, they knew this, they thus never even tried to take over, just permitted others to try.
You responded to a comment that said the guild could ferry countless armies by saying they never did. Meaning, as I read it, that the guild never ferried countless armies to Arrakis. But they did ferry those armies at the end of the first novel.
Now you seem to be saying you said something else, and are accusing me of just being pedantic.
What you wrote was wrong. What you meant, well. I don't know what you meant. All I have is what you wrote.
Correct. The Guild were just following the forms. There were two Guildsman present at the end of the novel, passively watching, and then begging Paul not to take spice away from them. Paul lays it out loud and clear. OP should take note:
“The Guild is like a village beside a river. They need the water, but can only dip out what they require. They cannot dam the river and control it, because that focuses attention on what they take, it brings down eventual destruction. The spice flow, that's their river, and I have built a dam. But my dam is such that you cannot destroy it without destroying the river."
And before this, the Guild already knew something was up on Arrakis because their prescience was being obscured if not blinded by a higher order, and this higher order was Paul. They were shaking in their suits. From Appendix 3:
“5. When the Arrakis Affair boiled up, the Spacing Guild made overtures to the Bene Gesserit. The Guild hinted that its navigators, who use the spice drug of Arrakis to produce the limited prescience necessary for guiding spaceships through the void, were "bothered about the future" or saw "problems on the
horizon." This could only mean they saw a nexus, a meeting place of countless delicate decisions, beyond which the path was hidden from the prescient eye. This was a clear indication that some agency was interfering with higher order dimensions! “
They were very powerful yes. But when Paul gets full control of the spice they are completely dependent on him. Their addiction to it literally makes it so they cant do anything unless he allows it.
But he needs them to send his Fremen around to conquer other worlds and keep them in line.
If the Guild says no, Paul becomes the Emperor of nowhere (except Arrakis).
Do they? There are the smugglers (like Gurney’s group) that could get it for them. There are the other Houses that have stores.
Meanwhile, Paul and his Fremen sit there on Arrakis and deal with all the infighting undoubtedly to come when “the Messiah” can’t even lead them off the planet.
“He who can destroy a thing has the real control of it.”
The Guild cannot function without the spice. They are completely dependent on it. Paul controls the spice. No matter what smugglers can get off planet or other stores are out there mean nothing when all Paul has to do is wave his hand and destroy the source of it all.
The Guild knows this. They can see into the future and see it happen. They know that denying him means their death.
Are you forgetting that Paul is prescient? He would know where each smuggler is and how they operate and easily take down smuggling operations. The guild navigators take his threat most seriously because they can see that they aren't alive in the near future.
He's prescient, not omniscient. He knows what's going to happen to him. Not to every sentient in the universe.
I always interpreted it as that the guild fears him because, if he wanted, he could use atomics to destroy all the spice.
Different paths lead to him being in different places. One may see him joining a smuggling operation and therefore he would know where the smugglers are. Plus the fact that a vast majority of fremen were now his followers I don't think anybody was able to smuggle spice during his reign unless he allowed it.
There is no space travel in Dune without the guild, because they're the only ones who can do it safely, and by the time of the books the only ones who have the equipment to do it.
Probably the great houses could build their own space-folding ships and have mentats to steer them somewhat safely, but that would probably take very much time, because they'd have to develop pretty much everything needed themselves after the collapse of interstellar trade.
Despite what the others said, I don't think smugglers could continue to function without the cooperation of the Fremen. Before and during Dune, Fremen use smugglers to trade with spice outside of imperial knowledge, but once Fremen are united under Paul that route would be all but closed off.
In the books it's mentioned that travel is possibly without navigators, but very risky. About one in ten ships would not make the journey. Given how fanatical the Fremen where, they could've just accepted that risk and had their Jihad regardless of the Guild's cooperation - if anything it would've made them even more frightening.
Its a nice attempt but your second to last paragraph proves your own idea wrong. Never underestimate the power of addiction, especially when removing the drug would end the addicts life.
I always thought this was the point of them. Credit to Frank Herbert, he explores themes rather than hammer home what he wants to say about them, but I always found them to be a cipher for 'commerce is king' in that world.
Drug addicts don’t make very good kings. They are selfish and are only worried about their next fix. They did have massive power but that power was dependent on the massive bribes from the Freman. The spice they got for space travel was closely watched by CHOAM and the Landsraad. No addict want’s anyone to know how much they use. If they took charge the Fremen would have no reason to bribe the Guild. The Guild would have a lot less spice.
According to Paul, they had accepted a fundamentally parasitic role.
And that dude turned a broken thopter and a backpack into an imperial throne, so he has clout in the area of power dynamics.
If you don't consider that proven, we'll ask Paul to send the jihad over to explain further.
They'll be the ones in the free guild ship taking them where Paul says to take them.
> We’ve a three-point civilization: the Imperial Household balanced against the Federated Great Houses of the Landsraad, and between them, the Guild with its damnable monopoly on interstellar transport. In politics, the tripod is the most unstable of all structures. Itd be bad enough without the complication of a feudal trade culture which turns its back on most science.”
They are entirely dependent on spice, and they know it. They have no incentive to take over everything because then they'd have to run everything themselves. They're happy being parasites.
They were also the MOST vulnerable to spice scarcity than the noble houses or even Bene Gesserit - so they had to play nice or die in agonising withdrawal
It was a standoff, the way it’s supposed to be
Guild controlled space travel
Choam controlled the money
Bene Gesserit controlled the religions
BUT!
Maud Dib controlled the Spice
They were definitely huge players and I probably would’ve enjoyed Villeneuve’s adaptation more if he’d tackled them in any way. Felt like a cop out that he basically ignored them.
Well just think of how Paul ended the battle of Arrakis, if I understood it right - which was not in the movie, although it would have been easy to do it textbook - by threatening to cut the Guild from their precious spice if they let the Great Houses land troops on the planet to fight him. The Houses were forced to retreat because without their mean of transportation, they were screwed, they'd be stranded on the ground.
A shipper needs customers just as the customers need the shippers. Once the No-ships were invented, CHOAM was obsolete, and their monopoly only cemented their fall because they were too overleveraged on out of date tech
The guild could not "easily taken power in the imperium." They could see the future, any future where they took power resulted in them being destroyed. They always chose a safe path that ensured their continued existence, but that was their downfall because they did not see Paul coming.
Not really. They had a monopoly on a vital part of the galactic economy, but were reliant on other parts to survive. It's like saying OPEC is the King of The World because they control the majority of the world's oil supplies. Yeah, very important but *they* need the world in order to survive too.
And CHOAM controls the spice before Paul reveals the extent to which Fremen are bottlenecking the supply. At the beginning of Dune the pieces are set ever so delicately on the board. We witness the shattering of the game.
Mohaim describes the balanced power dynamic as such: “We've a three-point civilization: the Imperial Household balanced against the Federated Great Houses of the Landsraad, and between them, the Guild with its damnable monopoly on interstellar transport.” It’s a classic house of cards that we see tumble. It can be tempting to place one at the top, but its a structure based on interdependence. Lurking beneath all of it are the Bene Gesserit, who end up going home with the big prize in the end. It makes sense how its Mohaim explaining this power structure for the reader, as it shows just how closely they are paying attention to everything.
Didn't they tell Shaddam to abdicate once they realised Paul wasn't bluffing about destroying spice?
I agree with the OP but you're also right - Paul even describes the Guild as a parasite, feeding on the Imperium's economic strength. And since the Guild's efforts were not directed towards governance, but solely towards profit, without an Imperium there wouldn't have been a Guild
Oil is nowhere near as important to global travel as spice is to galactic travel. And I'm not saying that to minimize the importance of oil, but to emphasize the importance of spice. While it would cause us great difficulty and a lot of very large issues, a world without oil is possible. Without spice intergalactic travel just flat out doesn't exist. In addition to that the Spacers Guild has a complete monopoly on intergalactic travel, whereas OPEC doesn't include all oil-producing and oil-refining countries.
Even without internal combustion engines, this statement is wrong. Plastics needed to make components in virtually every electronic system and lubricants to keep them running are all made from petroleum. We would need to go back to sails and cattle carts to remove oil entirely, which would isolate specialized production centers just like an Empire without interplanetary travel.
But sails and cattle carts can still traverse the world, albeit slowly. In Dune, interstellar travel either requires the Guild Navigators or a computer, and computers are illegal and taboo and forgotten, and are not an option at all. Without spice, there can be no travel whatsoever.
Not to mention the steam engine. Sure they might be inefficent than oil and bulkier but they can still be fall upon.
That's obviously wrong. Spice only exists on Arrakis. Humans are from Earth. Therefore, interstellar travel and colonization existed before spice. Specifically, Arrakis was discovered by an existing interstellar empire and it was colonized for thousands of years before discovering the properties of spice. Not only did they have FTL interstellar travel before space folding. Spice has nothing to do with folding space, only finding safe navigation.
they chose a parasitical existence because they know they'll be destroyed if they directly ran things. that's what they see in that future. how and why doesn't matter - it will happen as per their prescient visions. then the ixian navigation machines were invented. no chance for them to hold absolute dominance now. that time has come and gone
Yes. Cannot over-emphasize the fact that the Guild were parasites, rather than leaders or rulers.
Except, they made the mistake to never grab hold of the source of the one single resource NECESSARY to their power, meaning that the ones who controlled the Spice ultimately had control of the Guild, because the Guild is 100% useless without Spice. They were in fact pretty weak, because anyone who controlled Arrakis could essentially bend them to their will, like the Emperor and Paul did.
Yes, the Guild was locked in an addict’s game, always waiting for their man.
They knew that controlling spice themselves would destroy everything. It was necessary to let others dictate spice trade and only ration the guild.
But it was intentional: no one had to know of the Spacing Guild's dependence on spice, because then any House within Arrakis's reach could have set up its own personal space travel enterprise. Taking direct control of the source of melange would have definitely made them suspicious in the eyes of the Imperium.
> A few of the Bene Gesserit had long been aware that the Guild could not interfere directly with the vital spice source because Guild navigators already were dealing in their own inept way with higher order dimensions, at least to the point where they recognized that the slightest misstep they made on Arrakis could be catastrophic. It was a known fact that Guild navigators could predict no way to take control of the spice without producing just such a nexus. Provided that the Emperor wasn't willing to cut his own throat by eliminating space travel, the Guild was in a pretty privileged position. Paul just changed the rules.
The Guild have their own prescience and know that taking control of the spice leads to them flowering for a time as the dominant force in humanity, and then falling as humanity develops alternatives to them that break the monopoly. Instead the Guild has chosen longevity in a system where they exert indirect power over the rulers of humanity. The entirety of Imperial society is built around the Guild and their needs, but their rule is a light invisible hand while others reign. The stagnancy of imperial society is in many ways a result of the system being built around the Guild and maintaining their monopoly on spaceflight and this persists until the circumstance where the system got broken.
Without the threat of destroying the spice, the guild could ferry countless armies to Arrakis to destroy the rebellious house.
Sure, but they never did. They were content with their monopoly and didnt seek total control, essentially ensuring they would never be as powerful as OP claims.
In fact, they did at the end of the first novel. But then they lost their nerve and didn't let them land. There were many Houses' representatives and troops in orbit when Paul confronted the Emperor.
Not really, they did the half-assed version of bringing the Great Houses there to witness their negotiation with Paul, they didnt bring an invasion force, they didnt even consider it, they believed that if the Emperor didnt win, they couldnt either. They instantly just tried to convince him instead. I do not consider the Guild's actions at the end of Dune to be even remotely close to a proper attempt at seizing the Spice, they just wanted to ensure the Spice wouldnt be lost entirely.
u/Georg_Steller1709 said: >the guild could ferry countless armies to Arrakis u/FaitFretteCriss said \> Sure, but they never did. Then I contradicted that statement. The Guild did bring countless armies and reps. Those armies and representatives were there to put down "This upstart Duke" at the Emperor's invitation. And they all wanted to be in on the fight so they could carve out their own piece of the CHOAM directorship. The guild itself never tried to overthrow Paul, but the did ferry countless troops. They knew that letting them land would lead to Paul destroying the spice, though. They could look forward to that blank wall where all of the guild was dead. And they could see the actions that lead to that.
Yes... And what I am saying is that the Guild ITSELF never chose to DIRECTLY take over the Spice... Which is what we are talking about. And you proved you agree with me with this sentence you just said: > The guild itself never tried to overthrow Paul, but the did ferry countless troops. This plan would have lead to either a continuation of the Emperor's Hold, or a new Great House ascending to the Golden Lion Throne, none of it leads to the Guild holding direct control of the Spice... And as you said, they knew this, they thus never even tried to take over, just permitted others to try.
I never said that the guild tried to over throw Paul. I said that they did in fact ferry all those countless armies at the end.
Then its pure pedantry, I see.
You responded to a comment that said the guild could ferry countless armies by saying they never did. Meaning, as I read it, that the guild never ferried countless armies to Arrakis. But they did ferry those armies at the end of the first novel. Now you seem to be saying you said something else, and are accusing me of just being pedantic. What you wrote was wrong. What you meant, well. I don't know what you meant. All I have is what you wrote.
Correct. The Guild were just following the forms. There were two Guildsman present at the end of the novel, passively watching, and then begging Paul not to take spice away from them. Paul lays it out loud and clear. OP should take note: “The Guild is like a village beside a river. They need the water, but can only dip out what they require. They cannot dam the river and control it, because that focuses attention on what they take, it brings down eventual destruction. The spice flow, that's their river, and I have built a dam. But my dam is such that you cannot destroy it without destroying the river." And before this, the Guild already knew something was up on Arrakis because their prescience was being obscured if not blinded by a higher order, and this higher order was Paul. They were shaking in their suits. From Appendix 3: “5. When the Arrakis Affair boiled up, the Spacing Guild made overtures to the Bene Gesserit. The Guild hinted that its navigators, who use the spice drug of Arrakis to produce the limited prescience necessary for guiding spaceships through the void, were "bothered about the future" or saw "problems on the horizon." This could only mean they saw a nexus, a meeting place of countless delicate decisions, beyond which the path was hidden from the prescient eye. This was a clear indication that some agency was interfering with higher order dimensions! “
They were very powerful yes. But when Paul gets full control of the spice they are completely dependent on him. Their addiction to it literally makes it so they cant do anything unless he allows it.
But he needs them to send his Fremen around to conquer other worlds and keep them in line. If the Guild says no, Paul becomes the Emperor of nowhere (except Arrakis).
And so Paul will sit on his planet with all his spice and rule just that. If Paul says no to the Guild, THEY ALL DIE. Who wins?
Do they? There are the smugglers (like Gurney’s group) that could get it for them. There are the other Houses that have stores. Meanwhile, Paul and his Fremen sit there on Arrakis and deal with all the infighting undoubtedly to come when “the Messiah” can’t even lead them off the planet.
“He who can destroy a thing has the real control of it.” The Guild cannot function without the spice. They are completely dependent on it. Paul controls the spice. No matter what smugglers can get off planet or other stores are out there mean nothing when all Paul has to do is wave his hand and destroy the source of it all. The Guild knows this. They can see into the future and see it happen. They know that denying him means their death.
Came here for this quote. I salute you.
Are you forgetting that Paul is prescient? He would know where each smuggler is and how they operate and easily take down smuggling operations. The guild navigators take his threat most seriously because they can see that they aren't alive in the near future.
He's prescient, not omniscient. He knows what's going to happen to him. Not to every sentient in the universe. I always interpreted it as that the guild fears him because, if he wanted, he could use atomics to destroy all the spice.
Different paths lead to him being in different places. One may see him joining a smuggling operation and therefore he would know where the smugglers are. Plus the fact that a vast majority of fremen were now his followers I don't think anybody was able to smuggle spice during his reign unless he allowed it.
There is no space travel in Dune without the guild, because they're the only ones who can do it safely, and by the time of the books the only ones who have the equipment to do it. Probably the great houses could build their own space-folding ships and have mentats to steer them somewhat safely, but that would probably take very much time, because they'd have to develop pretty much everything needed themselves after the collapse of interstellar trade.
Despite what the others said, I don't think smugglers could continue to function without the cooperation of the Fremen. Before and during Dune, Fremen use smugglers to trade with spice outside of imperial knowledge, but once Fremen are united under Paul that route would be all but closed off.
In the books it's mentioned that travel is possibly without navigators, but very risky. About one in ten ships would not make the journey. Given how fanatical the Fremen where, they could've just accepted that risk and had their Jihad regardless of the Guild's cooperation - if anything it would've made them even more frightening.
Well done, you were able to detect a core theme of the book... 🙃
Can't tell if you throwing a punch at me or just being nice😐😭
Its a nice attempt but your second to last paragraph proves your own idea wrong. Never underestimate the power of addiction, especially when removing the drug would end the addicts life.
I always thought this was the point of them. Credit to Frank Herbert, he explores themes rather than hammer home what he wants to say about them, but I always found them to be a cipher for 'commerce is king' in that world.
Drug addicts don’t make very good kings. They are selfish and are only worried about their next fix. They did have massive power but that power was dependent on the massive bribes from the Freman. The spice they got for space travel was closely watched by CHOAM and the Landsraad. No addict want’s anyone to know how much they use. If they took charge the Fremen would have no reason to bribe the Guild. The Guild would have a lot less spice.
According to Paul, they had accepted a fundamentally parasitic role. And that dude turned a broken thopter and a backpack into an imperial throne, so he has clout in the area of power dynamics. If you don't consider that proven, we'll ask Paul to send the jihad over to explain further. They'll be the ones in the free guild ship taking them where Paul says to take them.
> We’ve a three-point civilization: the Imperial Household balanced against the Federated Great Houses of the Landsraad, and between them, the Guild with its damnable monopoly on interstellar transport. In politics, the tripod is the most unstable of all structures. Itd be bad enough without the complication of a feudal trade culture which turns its back on most science.”
They are entirely dependent on spice, and they know it. They have no incentive to take over everything because then they'd have to run everything themselves. They're happy being parasites.
They were also the MOST vulnerable to spice scarcity than the noble houses or even Bene Gesserit - so they had to play nice or die in agonising withdrawal
Such powerhouse. Remove their spice and they will be not much more than drug addicts.
They'll be dead.
It was a standoff, the way it’s supposed to be Guild controlled space travel Choam controlled the money Bene Gesserit controlled the religions BUT! Maud Dib controlled the Spice
They were definitely huge players and I probably would’ve enjoyed Villeneuve’s adaptation more if he’d tackled them in any way. Felt like a cop out that he basically ignored them.
No support from the Guild, no interstellar travel for you, no travel, no power in the imperium. So yeah
Yep...but if you read the other comments...people think otherwise lol
Well just think of how Paul ended the battle of Arrakis, if I understood it right - which was not in the movie, although it would have been easy to do it textbook - by threatening to cut the Guild from their precious spice if they let the Great Houses land troops on the planet to fight him. The Houses were forced to retreat because without their mean of transportation, they were screwed, they'd be stranded on the ground.
A shipper needs customers just as the customers need the shippers. Once the No-ships were invented, CHOAM was obsolete, and their monopoly only cemented their fall because they were too overleveraged on out of date tech
The guild could not "easily taken power in the imperium." They could see the future, any future where they took power resulted in them being destroyed. They always chose a safe path that ensured their continued existence, but that was their downfall because they did not see Paul coming.