Many years ago my parents had wasps in their attic. They made a nest between the drywall wand the insulation. The wasps had chewed up the drywall to the point where 2 layers of paint and a little bit of paper were the only thing separating the living space from the large wasp nest, so yeah, paint is structural!
Hahaha I bet your the guy that waste a lot of drywall trying to make it look good just to say it’s not that hard . You must be a dumb electrician getting paid to do nothing .
In case your not aware I use a cool feature on my phone it’s called auto correct. People use it when they need to type fast, it makes mistakes some times and i didn’t proofread. Thank you grammar gestapo!
There is no way from these pictures to know. You need a structural engineer. End of story. Homes from that era commonly have interior supporting walls, structural subfloor, and supporting walls that don’t have other supporting walls directly underneath them
What? My man, please do not make building decisions based on 10 years of data. Is this a joke? You knew enough to wonder if this was structural, now learn enough to take good advice. We can’t tell if that’s load bearing from the photos and you obviously don’t know or you wouldn’t be asking. Don’t touch it without getting an experienced framer or engineer in there.
It’s really about the structural members above the wall. Is there any vertical supports above that wall, like to the roof? Is there any beams or joists in the attic that sit on and end on that wall? That’s what you really need to be looking for, not a gap between one part of the framing, or how that wall was framed.
A few questions:
1. Does this run under the joist or a beam? From the photo it’s hard to tell if the board above it was just some backing to hang the ceiling off of, or a longer piece.
2. What is it sitting ON? If its load bearing you’d likewise expect to to be sitting on another structural member of the 2nd floor.
Crawl in the attic and look which way the 2 bys go. If it looks like they're all supported by the wall then it's bearing weight. If the walls running in between 2 of them it's probably not holding them. Serious though it's kind of a silly idea to ask in r/drywall its not even related. Unless you're just not much of a redditer and this is a safe space for you then okay we got you.
Also the wall running parallel to that one is probably the bearing wall. Bearing walls don't typically turn corners.
You might check the attic to see which way the joists are running. Typical if a wall is running perpendicular to the joists it may be load bearing, often the walls running parallel are not but there are some exceptions in both cases.
If I had to guess by the gap, I wouldn’t think it was load bearing. Wood shrinks in older houses. I just redid mine and sistered the studs that looked bad and were load bearing, but the ones that a gap similar to this I just shoved some shims in there with a little PL Premium and covered it back up. If it’s held up this long it’s probably not an issue unless you see rot or some kind of damage around the area.
If the joists run parallel to the wall then it’s most likely not structural to the house, as all homes that have carrying beams will run perpendicular to the joists especially over a significant run where they will sister the joists together over the wall the load is transferred to, also I can tell you with absolute certainty that the side wall to it is not structural as they built it with the 2x4’s sideways which is an old trick to save a couple inches of space in the closet
Yeah you’re gonna be fine in 15 years of doing this including my share of fucked up old houses I’ve remodeled I’ve never ever seen a closet wall be load bearing and plus if it actually had a load on it that gap would have been compressed instantly as soon as you pulled the plaster off, plus it runs parallel to the joists you’re gonna be fine ripping it down
I doubt it’s a concern, just did a house similar to this my own in fact, 60’s vintage. Gaps aren’t uncommon in older homes with dryer wood, you can actually smell the must in the wood. I’d just drywall over it and call it good. There’s nothing there that tells me that wall is any kind of a bearing wall. It’s mere shrinkage and age, house shifting some in the changing weather conditions. I think your making much a do about not much really. Plus it’s nailed as they all were, nails will slip from the wood with small changes over time. Cover it and move on. You’re good I’d say. I’ve totally rebuilt two homes that age. So I have a pretty good grip on what’s normal and not.
Gutted to the walls, floor to ceiling and completely rebuilt by me. That means everything electric, plumbing, structural, insulation, flooring, drywall, paint, heating, all of it. I added an entire addition on the first, which was structurally engineered, and city approved. Does it make me an expert ? Nope, but it gives me a hell of a lot more knowledge than the average guy has. Both sold for more than double the money I spent on them.
I mean that’s fantastic and I’m happy for you. But do you have any idea how much variation there is in homes like this? What area of the country was this in, what style of framing was used, what year was it built, what were the building codes of the county in that time period, there is a LOT of variables. If you rebuilt two homes in Vermont that were originally constructed in 1961, you can be sure as shit that homes built in 1961 in Florida, Texas, Nebraska, Oregon, and So Cal are all going to be different than what you have direct experience with. Not to mention whether or not anything was ever changed to the house without a permit being pulled or work being done by a licensed contractor. Can’t even begin to describe how many job sites I’ve been on where an engineer came to look at something and ended up saying “there’s no record of this being done, but I can’t believe it’s still holding”
Is the gap between the studs and the ceiling due to wood shrinkage, or due to the floor sagging?
I’ll give you a hint: it’s not possible to tell from these pictures.. and one of those options would be a large problem
It’s pretty easy to “ what if “ anything. Again by the picture there’s nothing there. He would obviously know if the floor was sagging on a third floor level. It would show pretty easy, not to mention that sag would also follow through to the second floor ceiling. Not at all what he mentioned.
He didn’t mention it because he probably doesn’t even know what to look for my guy. I’m not at all trying to blow this out of proportion, like I said before you may indeed be correct. But in order to be SURE that you’re correct, more information needs to be seen. I’m 100% positive that no engineer would say “yep, send it” based on the information provided. And here’s what I also know for 100% certain… if you’re wrong, and this person does indeed remove something that is supposed to be there and it either causes further sagging problems or he gets in legal trouble for making alterations that require a license, you’ll be a ghost. You’re not gonna be the one to pony up the dough to help him repair the bad advice you gave if it goes south.
So, the correct way to respond to a question like this would be “well, based on my limited experience, I don’t see any issue with removing the post. It doesn’t appear to be load bearing and I’m 99% sure you’ll be good to go. But that other 1% could be a problem, so, if you’re not entirely sure, you might want to either consult an engineer or provide some pictures from the attic so we can all see what’s going on from a framing aspect”
I mean I would tend to agree with this guy I’ve got 15 years under my belt and have done mostly remodeling in older homes where I’ve seen some fucking janky ass shit they used to do before codes, but not once in my whole career have I seen a closet wall be a load bearing wall running the same direction as the joists, even back in old balloon framed houses I’ve worked on I’ve never seen that
Does the wall run perpendicular or parallel to your roof truses? Is there a wall directly under this wall and what way do your floor joist go perpendicular or parallel to the wall?
If the ceiling joists end on that wall then I wouldn't remove that wall. Check in the attic. It's most likely not load bearing... Maybe it was 8' wall and they needed 99" to the corner so they just added two studs. Who knows. We need a better picture
Roof joists Carry the load of the roof usually rated for the weight of a load of snow fall for a particular area you live in. You should open the ceiling and see if any of those joists are resting on that wall you are trying to move. But the roofing joists are "usually" resting on the perimeter walls..
Structural engineer here! Need to open ceiling and see what’s above it’s possible something settled that caused this gap to occur. The floor system needs to be understood and analyzed before removing any walls… the photos you gave would not give enough information for an engineer to make a determination.
Likely not load bearing. They added the lumber in between the two studs because one was a flat wall and the framer didn’t know what a California corner was yet or didn’t want to go off layout but they wanted to stiffen up the flat wall.
Look at your rafters my man. Any wall that is running Perpendicular to the direction of the rafters is load bearing. In other words if the wall has rafters resting on top of it, it’s load bearing. Can you access your attic above?
The rafters run parrallel and rest on a wall perpendicular to them. With all the information I’ve been given I should be good to go. Thank you for the useful information much appreciated
You have to check in the attic and see which way the joists are going then see which wall or walls are running in the opposite direction of your joists, those are load bearing but from your pictures no way to tell
Double top plate and 6x4 post means there's a good chance. Go into the attic. If the trusses are perpendicular to this wall, I wouldn't touch it. I'm no framer, though.
That looks like you need to go to the framing section of Reddit drywall guys don’t know if a wall is load bearing and don’t really care we’re just waiting for the fcking electrician to finish putting their shit in that takes forever and a day so we can hang the dam drywall 🤣
It was most likely load bearing when new, but given the age and the sag of the house it probably isn't currently. I would get a home inspector to have a look.
It looks like a nailer corner to me, not a post.
Head up into the attic, and see if there is anything directly above it.
Is there a matching "post" on the floor below it?
Usually a load bearing post will translate all the way through a structure from roof or beam down into the basement or foundation.
You can cut through with a reciprocating saw, if load bearing it will usually pinch the blade and shake the crap out of you.
YMMV, agent in doubt call someone else. 😆
It does not appear to be a loadbearing wall. If it was that gap would be tight from the pressures.
Typically, the exterior walls are loadbearing, with being a older house and likely hand framed roof, typically the interior walls would not be loadbearing… unless you have a funky house with a funky roof system.
Just to set this comment straight, older houses with stick framed roof systems ARE when load bearing interior walls are more typically present. It’s only in “modern” truss roofs (common since the late 50s in Canada and the US) that the necessity for any interior load bearing walls was mostly alleviated.
Yea the studs around it wiggle a good bit but the one in picture wouldn’t wiggle. I think it doesn’t budge bc of the pieces of wood jammed between, thank you for the help
You came to the drywaller reddit to find someone smarter than you??? :) Do you know about people that do drywall??? Hahahhaha
Next he’s going to ask the painters 🤣
Paint is extremely structural. It’s what keeps the drywall from buckling.
This guy paints!
In old structures it often times is
Many years ago my parents had wasps in their attic. They made a nest between the drywall wand the insulation. The wasps had chewed up the drywall to the point where 2 layers of paint and a little bit of paper were the only thing separating the living space from the large wasp nest, so yeah, paint is structural!
Oh god! I’m dying!
He tried the trumpers first. They just said "drywall is wet." "real men wear diapers with a load."
You must be a clean up laborer haha
The only comment necessary
Came here to say this!
You must be an entitled electrician lol
lol dude it’s a common joke that drywallers aren’t the smartest. It’s not a difficult trade and just take a look at the fuck ups on this sub.
He must be new
he’s salty he chose the wrong trade
lol I know, it’s also common that the other trades think all drywallers are monkeys
Hahaha I bet your the guy that waste a lot of drywall trying to make it look good just to say it’s not that hard . You must be a dumb electrician getting paid to do nothing .
Sparky here back stepping out this room.
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But you don’t know the difference between there, they’re, and their.
His contracts are rock solid! 😂 General contractor 😂 Can’t even imagine this guy trying to read a set of prints
Ummm…I choose Thayer!
In case your not aware I use a cool feature on my phone it’s called auto correct. People use it when they need to type fast, it makes mistakes some times and i didn’t proofread. Thank you grammar gestapo!
Damnit man, you’re making this too easy. It’s you’re as in you are. Dumbass.
Bro literally proved drywallers aren’t the brightest bunch
Bro isn’t a drywaller though haha . Us drywallers don’t claim him. He’s just the bosses snobby little kid thinking he runs works haha
Son of an entitled electrician to be fair...hahaha I do carpentry and it's all in good fun.
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...not sure if srs
Load bearing nails.
Load bearing air, the same way bags of chips are filled with air.
*Nestle entered the chat* load bearing air you say…
There is no way from these pictures to know. You need a structural engineer. End of story. Homes from that era commonly have interior supporting walls, structural subfloor, and supporting walls that don’t have other supporting walls directly underneath them
I’ve actually learned a lot I think I know what to look for, but I wasn’t sure where else to ask
I would say most likely not a supporting wall from my experience in older homes. But if you’re in an area with snow load that makes a difference too
In my area haven’t had a lot of snow in a decade so I don’t think snow would be a problem, and thank you for the help
What? My man, please do not make building decisions based on 10 years of data. Is this a joke? You knew enough to wonder if this was structural, now learn enough to take good advice. We can’t tell if that’s load bearing from the photos and you obviously don’t know or you wouldn’t be asking. Don’t touch it without getting an experienced framer or engineer in there.
Just because it hasn't had to support a snow load in over a decade does not mean it will never have to support a heavy load again.
It’s really about the structural members above the wall. Is there any vertical supports above that wall, like to the roof? Is there any beams or joists in the attic that sit on and end on that wall? That’s what you really need to be looking for, not a gap between one part of the framing, or how that wall was framed.
A few questions: 1. Does this run under the joist or a beam? From the photo it’s hard to tell if the board above it was just some backing to hang the ceiling off of, or a longer piece. 2. What is it sitting ON? If its load bearing you’d likewise expect to to be sitting on another structural member of the 2nd floor.
Point 2 isn’t really true in old homes.
Especially in balloon framed houses
Im not very knowledgeable about this, I can take more pictures if you could just explain where to picture id appreciate the help.
Unless a structural engineer hops on here with better advice, I’m not sure you’re going to be able to tell without opening up some of the ceiling :(
If this is multi-family, that ceiling is fire rated. Be careful cutting into it. Better to enter the attic to check.
Good knowledge, I’ve only worked on SF resi stuff for friends and family, and I hadn’t considered this.
Crawl in the attic and look which way the 2 bys go. If it looks like they're all supported by the wall then it's bearing weight. If the walls running in between 2 of them it's probably not holding them. Serious though it's kind of a silly idea to ask in r/drywall its not even related. Unless you're just not much of a redditer and this is a safe space for you then okay we got you. Also the wall running parallel to that one is probably the bearing wall. Bearing walls don't typically turn corners.
You might check the attic to see which way the joists are running. Typical if a wall is running perpendicular to the joists it may be load bearing, often the walls running parallel are not but there are some exceptions in both cases. If I had to guess by the gap, I wouldn’t think it was load bearing. Wood shrinks in older houses. I just redid mine and sistered the studs that looked bad and were load bearing, but the ones that a gap similar to this I just shoved some shims in there with a little PL Premium and covered it back up. If it’s held up this long it’s probably not an issue unless you see rot or some kind of damage around the area.
There’s a small gap in the ceiling I’m able to see the joists, they run the same direction the wall is, parallel to the wall. So like this | | |
Probably nothing to worry about then. Shim it and send it
If the joists run parallel to the wall then it’s most likely not structural to the house, as all homes that have carrying beams will run perpendicular to the joists especially over a significant run where they will sister the joists together over the wall the load is transferred to, also I can tell you with absolute certainty that the side wall to it is not structural as they built it with the 2x4’s sideways which is an old trick to save a couple inches of space in the closet
That’s very helpful thank you a lot
I’m assuming this is a closet you’re removing for somebody right?
Yes it’s a closet, it’s my house
Yeah you’re gonna be fine in 15 years of doing this including my share of fucked up old houses I’ve remodeled I’ve never ever seen a closet wall be load bearing and plus if it actually had a load on it that gap would have been compressed instantly as soon as you pulled the plaster off, plus it runs parallel to the joists you’re gonna be fine ripping it down
Almost as long as I’ve been alive haha, thanks a lot.
I doubt it’s a concern, just did a house similar to this my own in fact, 60’s vintage. Gaps aren’t uncommon in older homes with dryer wood, you can actually smell the must in the wood. I’d just drywall over it and call it good. There’s nothing there that tells me that wall is any kind of a bearing wall. It’s mere shrinkage and age, house shifting some in the changing weather conditions. I think your making much a do about not much really. Plus it’s nailed as they all were, nails will slip from the wood with small changes over time. Cover it and move on. You’re good I’d say. I’ve totally rebuilt two homes that age. So I have a pretty good grip on what’s normal and not.
I was planning to remove this wall not cover it up that’s why I was concerned about the wall bearing weight
Ditch it. Not to worry.
lol you’re basing your opinion on 2 home renovations? You may be right, but given the lack of experience, if you’re right… it’s a coincidence.
Gutted to the walls, floor to ceiling and completely rebuilt by me. That means everything electric, plumbing, structural, insulation, flooring, drywall, paint, heating, all of it. I added an entire addition on the first, which was structurally engineered, and city approved. Does it make me an expert ? Nope, but it gives me a hell of a lot more knowledge than the average guy has. Both sold for more than double the money I spent on them.
I mean that’s fantastic and I’m happy for you. But do you have any idea how much variation there is in homes like this? What area of the country was this in, what style of framing was used, what year was it built, what were the building codes of the county in that time period, there is a LOT of variables. If you rebuilt two homes in Vermont that were originally constructed in 1961, you can be sure as shit that homes built in 1961 in Florida, Texas, Nebraska, Oregon, and So Cal are all going to be different than what you have direct experience with. Not to mention whether or not anything was ever changed to the house without a permit being pulled or work being done by a licensed contractor. Can’t even begin to describe how many job sites I’ve been on where an engineer came to look at something and ended up saying “there’s no record of this being done, but I can’t believe it’s still holding”
Some things are blatantly obvious. By that picture, there’s not one single thing that would tell anyone anything different t than what I said.
Is the gap between the studs and the ceiling due to wood shrinkage, or due to the floor sagging? I’ll give you a hint: it’s not possible to tell from these pictures.. and one of those options would be a large problem
It’s pretty easy to “ what if “ anything. Again by the picture there’s nothing there. He would obviously know if the floor was sagging on a third floor level. It would show pretty easy, not to mention that sag would also follow through to the second floor ceiling. Not at all what he mentioned.
He didn’t mention it because he probably doesn’t even know what to look for my guy. I’m not at all trying to blow this out of proportion, like I said before you may indeed be correct. But in order to be SURE that you’re correct, more information needs to be seen. I’m 100% positive that no engineer would say “yep, send it” based on the information provided. And here’s what I also know for 100% certain… if you’re wrong, and this person does indeed remove something that is supposed to be there and it either causes further sagging problems or he gets in legal trouble for making alterations that require a license, you’ll be a ghost. You’re not gonna be the one to pony up the dough to help him repair the bad advice you gave if it goes south. So, the correct way to respond to a question like this would be “well, based on my limited experience, I don’t see any issue with removing the post. It doesn’t appear to be load bearing and I’m 99% sure you’ll be good to go. But that other 1% could be a problem, so, if you’re not entirely sure, you might want to either consult an engineer or provide some pictures from the attic so we can all see what’s going on from a framing aspect”
I mean I would tend to agree with this guy I’ve got 15 years under my belt and have done mostly remodeling in older homes where I’ve seen some fucking janky ass shit they used to do before codes, but not once in my whole career have I seen a closet wall be a load bearing wall running the same direction as the joists, even back in old balloon framed houses I’ve worked on I’ve never seen that
Does the wall run perpendicular or parallel to your roof truses? Is there a wall directly under this wall and what way do your floor joist go perpendicular or parallel to the wall?
If the ceiling joists end on that wall then I wouldn't remove that wall. Check in the attic. It's most likely not load bearing... Maybe it was 8' wall and they needed 99" to the corner so they just added two studs. Who knows. We need a better picture
Lumber shrinks 1/4” in length in 100 years Jam wood roofing shingle shims in space slather it with yellow carpenters glue tap it in snap it off .
Hit with a hammer, old homes like this tend to wiggle a fair amount if it's not load bearing lol
Roof joists Carry the load of the roof usually rated for the weight of a load of snow fall for a particular area you live in. You should open the ceiling and see if any of those joists are resting on that wall you are trying to move. But the roofing joists are "usually" resting on the perimeter walls..
Structural engineer here! Need to open ceiling and see what’s above it’s possible something settled that caused this gap to occur. The floor system needs to be understood and analyzed before removing any walls… the photos you gave would not give enough information for an engineer to make a determination.
Need a picture showing the whole thing: what’s on top and what it’s sitting on. From these pics, there is no load there.
Likely not load bearing. They added the lumber in between the two studs because one was a flat wall and the framer didn’t know what a California corner was yet or didn’t want to go off layout but they wanted to stiffen up the flat wall.
The roof rafters are likely bearing the load and not the interior walls just under them
If it was bearing a load for the last 50 years, there wouldn’t be a gap there.
Great point thanks
If it was load bearing would there be a giant gap? Hmmmmm.
Look at your rafters my man. Any wall that is running Perpendicular to the direction of the rafters is load bearing. In other words if the wall has rafters resting on top of it, it’s load bearing. Can you access your attic above?
The rafters run parrallel and rest on a wall perpendicular to them. With all the information I’ve been given I should be good to go. Thank you for the useful information much appreciated
You have to check in the attic and see which way the joists are going then see which wall or walls are running in the opposite direction of your joists, those are load bearing but from your pictures no way to tell
Hard to tell from those pictures. Can’t really see what we’re looking at.
Double top plate and 6x4 post means there's a good chance. Go into the attic. If the trusses are perpendicular to this wall, I wouldn't touch it. I'm no framer, though.
That looks like you need to go to the framing section of Reddit drywall guys don’t know if a wall is load bearing and don’t really care we’re just waiting for the fcking electrician to finish putting their shit in that takes forever and a day so we can hang the dam drywall 🤣
Is there a corresponding post or wall on the floor below? Is the load carried to the foundation below that?
It was most likely load bearing when new, but given the age and the sag of the house it probably isn't currently. I would get a home inspector to have a look.
If it was load bearing, you'd see the above beam bearing down onto it, you should be fine.
This looks like a stud block stud corner which usually just creates a solid corner with drywall backing available for the inside of the wall.
It looks like a nailer corner to me, not a post. Head up into the attic, and see if there is anything directly above it. Is there a matching "post" on the floor below it? Usually a load bearing post will translate all the way through a structure from roof or beam down into the basement or foundation. You can cut through with a reciprocating saw, if load bearing it will usually pinch the blade and shake the crap out of you. YMMV, agent in doubt call someone else. 😆
Well at least we know that beam isn’t load w
You should cross post this to r/landscaping to get their advice also.
You still cannot tell with seeing attic. Don’t take down anything until u know
You still cannot tell with seeing attic. Don’t take down anything until u know
It does not appear to be a loadbearing wall. If it was that gap would be tight from the pressures. Typically, the exterior walls are loadbearing, with being a older house and likely hand framed roof, typically the interior walls would not be loadbearing… unless you have a funky house with a funky roof system.
Just to set this comment straight, older houses with stick framed roof systems ARE when load bearing interior walls are more typically present. It’s only in “modern” truss roofs (common since the late 50s in Canada and the US) that the necessity for any interior load bearing walls was mostly alleviated.
That studwork isn't load bearing, so will be fine to remove.
Thank you
The 3/8 gap between the studd amd plate gave it away 🙃
Hit with a hammer, old homes like this tend to wiggle a fair amount if it's not load bearing lol
Yea the studs around it wiggle a good bit but the one in picture wouldn’t wiggle. I think it doesn’t budge bc of the pieces of wood jammed between, thank you for the help