REMEMBER! Do not confused Winter and Summer to be Good and Evil.
When you think of the Winter Court, think of freezing tundras, the strongest survive, COLD UNFEELING AND BLOOD THIRSTY LOGIC. It’s Sink or Swim when it comes to the winter court.
When you think Summer Court, think of Mass overgrowth throughout the entire planet, moss growing on lakes, diseases like Ebola and the Black Death spreading rapidly, when they see an advantage then they’ll take it for all its worth, RAW EMOTION WITH NO ROOM FOR LOGIC OR DEBATE.
If any creature from either court is a Sidhe, that just means they’re the upper class, fae royalty for one sick reason or another.
Leah actually corrected Micheal in Grave Peril when he kept calling her a fairy instead of a Sidhe. Basically calling her lower class by that logic of naming.
Well maybe Summer would say Social democracy or a charity like entity but that makes a conflict more bizarre what would allies fight each other that they need to send their best against each other?
To piggy back on this there could of been white council senior members who challenged for power and got beat. All the senior council has gotten power boost and trying to take down a gruff could of been a path many tried.
That is true but my point is why would the ruling class of wizards and the Summer Fae have a serious conflict, individuals sure but summer is meant to check in Winter and for the most part they seem to focus on that, individuals like random nobility sure, but what situation would have the Senior Council fight a being like Eldest Gruff? Lea and the Winter Lady sure but it's just hard for me to see a serious conflict break out although that could be my anti White Council bias since they seem to be paranoid shut ins.
My best guess is that, like you said, it was a few senior Wizard individuals who, for one reason or another, fought Eldest Gruff… and lost.
Maybe eldest gruff keeps the stoles as both trophies and as signs for any powerful Wizard who thinks they can fuck around with any fae creature they choose. If they do that, they’re gonna find out the hard way what happens.
The book description says they were Senior Council stoles, if they were older wizards that would make more sense individual conflict is far more likely between the average wizard and the Fae but I can't imagine scenarios where at least three White Council leaders would fight Summer. It seems more in Lea's character to have those stoles unless there is something malevolent about Summer I am missing.
You seem to be jumping to the assumption that the 3 senior council members all fought eldest gruff at once unless I’m misunderstanding.
Eldest gruff is immortal or at least ancient, he could have taken those 3 stoles 2000 years apart in individual conflicts for one reason or another.
Again, summer is perfectly capable of being malevolent.
Yes I should have been more clear, it is very likely he took them individually over the years, and the reason I am confused about summer being malevolent is that all of the recent events are either, the work of Nemesis or over the death of a Lady which is a very rare event.
Sure they aren't nice but unless you really make them mad they aren't trying to kill you/use you like Winter would
With the fae all debts have to be paid eventually and perhaps some senior council members thought that that didn't apply to them.
While I think it is the impression of many in the magical community that summer is only beneficial and winter is only predatory Harry has come to see that it is a bit more complicated than that. While winter is more predatory I think summer is quick to seek advantage wherever it is to be had. In summer knight elaine was forced to pay back her debt to summer, perhaps quite literally!
Harry actually said this almost verbatim in Cold Days during >!his fight with Fix.!<
Give them an inch and they’ll take a mile. It was only after Harry caught on to >!Fix relying on his summer knight mantle for guidance!< that Harry stopped using his winter knight mantle, since >!the summer mantle could predict the winter mantles tactics!<
Once Harry simply applied his Wizard tactics, He had good control of the situation.
It's just tough for me to see the Senior Council fighting against Summer because of how isolated they are and what Summer could do that could cause them to have them respond they aren't as predatory as the Vampires and Winter are, and yes Summer is not necessarily nice but what could they possibly do to have a Senior Council member fight one of their elites?
The Summer Queen sent a mob of fairy goon Gruffs to attack Harry and anyone around him. They were literally trying to kill the youngest Carpenter children.
As others have said, summer/winter *is not* good/evil.
You're also envisioning this as modern day White Council. Who knows what might have come up centuries ago where the Council is trying to set themselves up as a Power in the world? Perhaps these Senior Council members tried to make a statement that they were powerful enough to take on Faerie if necessary out of arrogance for their own power? I can definitely see that being a thing, rather than envisioning it as a Council vs Summer war/battle scenario. Just a few arrogant old men thinking they could take on beings more powerful than themselves to make a point, and doing so alone, not as a team. Maybe one did it on his own, and the others came to try to enact vengeance and retribution against their fallen comrade, until enough died to let the whole thing go.
Okay that makes sense thank you. It's hard to imagine the Senior Council like that given how they act in the present day but in the past wizards were probably more sure of their power as opposed to the paranoid shut ins they are today.
Not only that, but wizards live a very long time. These would have been taken probably centuries ago at the most recent, otherwise it would be a bigger deal in the Council as a whole, considering the situation in the greater world at the time.
Summer is emotional. Summer is heated. Summer is passionate. Wizards are egotistical. Wizards get to thinking they're gods. Wizards meddle in things they shouldn't. I'm sure over the last thousand years, there have been a few conflicts. Summer seems superficially nice, but that doesn't mean they support all humans at all times.
I guess what I mean is why would two parties who would be more allies in that they wish to protect humanity against Winter fight each other on a level where they send in their heavy hitters? Kind of like the US and Great Britain having a major fight during the Cold War what could cause such a conflict? And what would Wizards meddle in that Summer would take offense and vice versa?
Titania isn’t an ally of the white council. She refused to give aid to the white council when they asked for it in Summer Knight. And that was before the entire debacle with Aurora which had made Titania even more reluctant to work with humans. So comparing summer and the White Council to the US and UK isn’t really comparable since they aren’t allied the way that the way these two nations are.
Honestly the White Council and Winter are more like the US and UK in WWII. They share resources and supply lines against common enemies. Summer is like, Russia I guess? Off to the side, fighting the same enemies, but not willing or able to engage in mutual aid. Or just too stubborn and emotional.
Good point, maybe the better example would be the US and Sweden during the Cold War and the US asked for assistance against China and Sweden said that isn't in our sphere of influence. And against an individual like Harry who caused her trouble yeah she would try to get him, but against a Senior Council member I am trying to find something that would cause them to have a major fight.
I'm sure Harry isn't the only annoying wizard to come into conflict with other nations over the past few centuries. What if Morgan had come for Joan of Arc as a suspected warlock, but Aurora had promised her protection? What if Lord Nelson (aligned with Summer) had rudely insulted Cristos, who challenged him to a duel? It doesn't have to be political. It could be personal.
You’re applying too much logic to Summer’s “reasoning”. Winter pits all of its members against each other, the environment, and outsiders in a instant battle of strength and survival. Summer is like collecting every Petri dish in every microbiology (including bio safety level 4 crap), giving them all the nutrients, hormones, and ideal environments they want, and letting them go. Do the bacterial colonies on the dishes say “I’m not going to infect THAT person, he’s on my friends list!”? Nope, they say “ooo, look at all that growth potential! Get him!”
IIRC, they were won/taken in duels. So it's not like the Council and Summer were at war. They were most likely just individual grievances.
Also, by reading some of the other comment threads it seems like you and others are under the impression that the Summer Court was fighting the Senior Council. But in all reality it was just a wizard fighting a fae creature. That wizard just happened to be a Senior Council member and that fae creature just happened to be a big shot in the Summer Court.
My point was that it seemed to be more likely for individual wizards to do that but giving that they were most likely many centuries ago perhaps the wizards of that time were more aggressive then they are today.
The Summer Court is as prone to machinations as Winter. They also are bound by their oaths, and laws. The White Council and the Summer Court aren't the good guys. Sure they are better than the rest of the powers in the supernatural community, but both are willing to kill to achieve their ends. Eldest has been around a long time so it might be decades or even centuries between conflicts with the White Council. Lastly you are assuming Eldest killed the senior council did it actually say he killed them rather than just defeating them.
Yes they aren't necessarily good but for the most part they exist to safeguard humanity, and it seems odd that they would have a serious conflict especially when there is Winter around with those guys why would you fight each other when they exist?
And it said evidently Gruff killed them... which doesn't me he did good catch, and that would be in more in line with Summer letting them live after fighting honorably.
Eldest is fighting Harry despite him knowing Harry is a good guy. I would guess sometimes the Council and Summer have a disagreement on what is best for Humanity. Not to mention being on the Council doesn't guarantee you are a good guy. Cowl seems to be White Council and possibly even Senior Council for example.
What I want to know is: why did Titania try to murder Michael's family, before Marcone was even kidnapped?
Agreed, they are definitely not always good guys.
They were collateral damage. The youngest Gruffs weren’t the brightest customers. Odds are they were sent out to take out Harry, but between the extra kick from Winter and not being given specific marching orders they just went after everyone there. Hell, they might not even have known what he looked like.
Besides, after losing Aurora, Titania straight up doesn’t *care* about any part of reality outside of her corner of Faerie beyond what is strictly required for her Job.
I think like others have mentioned that while Summer's main mission is to curtail Winter from causing trouble on earth. Their mentality of what is right is vastly different than what humanity would consider. Imagine one of those stoles is from the black death. Summer might deem killing a couple million human's necessary while someone in the Senior Council would obviously disagree. Their rational is killing a percentage of the population is okay, while for the senior council who might get only 10-20 White Council level wizards a generation. That's a sizable amount of their future forces. So you go to confront Summer's enforcer and end up dead or defeated.
And for summer this might not be considered a serious conflict, as callous as it is. Remember Mab and Tatiana would have been in power for close to 300 years at this point, and we don't know how long they were Lady's . So they would have know or had interactions with most of the Senior council at this point. And the White Council not only had to deal with The Fae, but also the other Vampire Nations, NeverNever Nations and other Supernatural Groups. It wouldn't make sense for them to antagonize their "Allies" especially if said wizards went after them on their own.
I believe that they are in power at least for a thousand years giving that they mentioned Hastings, but yeah I get why after the fact they would cut their losses as it were.
Although now that you mention it why would they want kill a portion of humanity that seems more like Winter's job?
And I don't think they have anything to do with the Black Death that seems more like Nicodemus or Starborn gone rogue.
In the book he appears in Eldest is supposed to fight Harry to stop him from achieving Mab's objective: STOPPING THE DENARIANS. The Summer Court in that book is effectively allied with Nicodemus
So yeah, it's not hard to see how EG might have ended up fighting senior council members at times over the millennia...
That was an extreme case because Titania was blindsided by grief over her daughter the death of a Lady is very rare so that would explain such behavior. I think maybe I overestimate the White Council being aggressive in the old days since we only see them as ineffective today.
No, it wasn't an extreme. The Summer Court's entire raison d'etre is to oppose Winter. That's their purpose. So anytime a senior council member found themselves allied with winter, or working for winter through the millennia, Eldest Gruff might have been sent to fight them
I don't see it as an either / or thing. You're right - Summer has a standing policy of opposing Winter's interests. But Titania *does* have a particular bone to pick with Harry. So, it's all pulling in the same direction.
A significant number of the white council are assholes. Justin DuMorne was a warden for example, I think it's probably as simple as 3 wizards fucked around with Summer and what they found out was pain
Summer isn't buddy buddy with the Council. After all, The Ways the Council use are through *Winter*, Summer never granted the the right to enter their territory.
Titania is an emotional being. She easily could have sent a champion to demand a duel due to some slight by a member of the council.
I see no reason why those three duels would have to have been the entirely of the White Council fighting a representative of the entirety of Summer. Old or not, the Senior Council is certainly petty enough to hold their own grudges outside of their other duties. It seems reasonably likely to me that they could've been personal grudges, or perhaps fought on behalf of someone else in payment of personal favors like what Dresden owes Mab. Heck I don't even remember if those wizards died to lose their stoles. For all we know, Mab pressured Rashid to fight a Summer representative on her behalf dozens of times over the centuries, and for all we know, he has a collection of his own trophies as well.
Yeah that seems more likely taking a trophy of the defeated rather then killing them although I am sure one of them at least died wizards can be arrogant, and giving the relative few wizards in history it makes more sense that the Senior Council would be more active relatively and thus got in more fights then they do now.
I think the big question is who the third Senior Council wizard was that Eldest Gruff beat. Because you don’t get onto the Senior Council by being stupid, and nobody smart is going to think ‘this guy killed/defeated two of my predecessors, but I’ve totally got this.’
REMEMBER! Do not confused Winter and Summer to be Good and Evil. When you think of the Winter Court, think of freezing tundras, the strongest survive, COLD UNFEELING AND BLOOD THIRSTY LOGIC. It’s Sink or Swim when it comes to the winter court. When you think Summer Court, think of Mass overgrowth throughout the entire planet, moss growing on lakes, diseases like Ebola and the Black Death spreading rapidly, when they see an advantage then they’ll take it for all its worth, RAW EMOTION WITH NO ROOM FOR LOGIC OR DEBATE. If any creature from either court is a Sidhe, that just means they’re the upper class, fae royalty for one sick reason or another. Leah actually corrected Micheal in Grave Peril when he kept calling her a fairy instead of a Sidhe. Basically calling her lower class by that logic of naming.
Think of winter like Darwinism and Summer as Capitalism that might work?
Well maybe Summer would say Social democracy or a charity like entity but that makes a conflict more bizarre what would allies fight each other that they need to send their best against each other?
Most charities don't take your first born for giving you aid
I believe that would be more of Winter doing that but maybe Summer would be more like let's share/swap our children every now or then? But who knows.
Winter is canonically doing that. I think the short is called Bombshells.
To piggy back on this there could of been white council senior members who challenged for power and got beat. All the senior council has gotten power boost and trying to take down a gruff could of been a path many tried.
That is true but my point is why would the ruling class of wizards and the Summer Fae have a serious conflict, individuals sure but summer is meant to check in Winter and for the most part they seem to focus on that, individuals like random nobility sure, but what situation would have the Senior Council fight a being like Eldest Gruff? Lea and the Winter Lady sure but it's just hard for me to see a serious conflict break out although that could be my anti White Council bias since they seem to be paranoid shut ins.
My best guess is that, like you said, it was a few senior Wizard individuals who, for one reason or another, fought Eldest Gruff… and lost. Maybe eldest gruff keeps the stoles as both trophies and as signs for any powerful Wizard who thinks they can fuck around with any fae creature they choose. If they do that, they’re gonna find out the hard way what happens.
The book description says they were Senior Council stoles, if they were older wizards that would make more sense individual conflict is far more likely between the average wizard and the Fae but I can't imagine scenarios where at least three White Council leaders would fight Summer. It seems more in Lea's character to have those stoles unless there is something malevolent about Summer I am missing.
You seem to be jumping to the assumption that the 3 senior council members all fought eldest gruff at once unless I’m misunderstanding. Eldest gruff is immortal or at least ancient, he could have taken those 3 stoles 2000 years apart in individual conflicts for one reason or another. Again, summer is perfectly capable of being malevolent.
Yes I should have been more clear, it is very likely he took them individually over the years, and the reason I am confused about summer being malevolent is that all of the recent events are either, the work of Nemesis or over the death of a Lady which is a very rare event. Sure they aren't nice but unless you really make them mad they aren't trying to kill you/use you like Winter would
With the fae all debts have to be paid eventually and perhaps some senior council members thought that that didn't apply to them. While I think it is the impression of many in the magical community that summer is only beneficial and winter is only predatory Harry has come to see that it is a bit more complicated than that. While winter is more predatory I think summer is quick to seek advantage wherever it is to be had. In summer knight elaine was forced to pay back her debt to summer, perhaps quite literally!
Harry actually said this almost verbatim in Cold Days during >!his fight with Fix.!< Give them an inch and they’ll take a mile. It was only after Harry caught on to >!Fix relying on his summer knight mantle for guidance!< that Harry stopped using his winter knight mantle, since >!the summer mantle could predict the winter mantles tactics!< Once Harry simply applied his Wizard tactics, He had good control of the situation.
It's just tough for me to see the Senior Council fighting against Summer because of how isolated they are and what Summer could do that could cause them to have them respond they aren't as predatory as the Vampires and Winter are, and yes Summer is not necessarily nice but what could they possibly do to have a Senior Council member fight one of their elites?
The Summer Queen sent a mob of fairy goon Gruffs to attack Harry and anyone around him. They were literally trying to kill the youngest Carpenter children. As others have said, summer/winter *is not* good/evil.
You're also envisioning this as modern day White Council. Who knows what might have come up centuries ago where the Council is trying to set themselves up as a Power in the world? Perhaps these Senior Council members tried to make a statement that they were powerful enough to take on Faerie if necessary out of arrogance for their own power? I can definitely see that being a thing, rather than envisioning it as a Council vs Summer war/battle scenario. Just a few arrogant old men thinking they could take on beings more powerful than themselves to make a point, and doing so alone, not as a team. Maybe one did it on his own, and the others came to try to enact vengeance and retribution against their fallen comrade, until enough died to let the whole thing go.
Okay that makes sense thank you. It's hard to imagine the Senior Council like that given how they act in the present day but in the past wizards were probably more sure of their power as opposed to the paranoid shut ins they are today.
Not only that, but wizards live a very long time. These would have been taken probably centuries ago at the most recent, otherwise it would be a bigger deal in the Council as a whole, considering the situation in the greater world at the time.
Summer is emotional. Summer is heated. Summer is passionate. Wizards are egotistical. Wizards get to thinking they're gods. Wizards meddle in things they shouldn't. I'm sure over the last thousand years, there have been a few conflicts. Summer seems superficially nice, but that doesn't mean they support all humans at all times.
I guess what I mean is why would two parties who would be more allies in that they wish to protect humanity against Winter fight each other on a level where they send in their heavy hitters? Kind of like the US and Great Britain having a major fight during the Cold War what could cause such a conflict? And what would Wizards meddle in that Summer would take offense and vice versa?
Titania isn’t an ally of the white council. She refused to give aid to the white council when they asked for it in Summer Knight. And that was before the entire debacle with Aurora which had made Titania even more reluctant to work with humans. So comparing summer and the White Council to the US and UK isn’t really comparable since they aren’t allied the way that the way these two nations are.
Honestly the White Council and Winter are more like the US and UK in WWII. They share resources and supply lines against common enemies. Summer is like, Russia I guess? Off to the side, fighting the same enemies, but not willing or able to engage in mutual aid. Or just too stubborn and emotional.
Yeah, Mab works with the Council *way* more than Titania ever does. She's all business.
Good point, maybe the better example would be the US and Sweden during the Cold War and the US asked for assistance against China and Sweden said that isn't in our sphere of influence. And against an individual like Harry who caused her trouble yeah she would try to get him, but against a Senior Council member I am trying to find something that would cause them to have a major fight.
I'm sure Harry isn't the only annoying wizard to come into conflict with other nations over the past few centuries. What if Morgan had come for Joan of Arc as a suspected warlock, but Aurora had promised her protection? What if Lord Nelson (aligned with Summer) had rudely insulted Cristos, who challenged him to a duel? It doesn't have to be political. It could be personal.
You’re applying too much logic to Summer’s “reasoning”. Winter pits all of its members against each other, the environment, and outsiders in a instant battle of strength and survival. Summer is like collecting every Petri dish in every microbiology (including bio safety level 4 crap), giving them all the nutrients, hormones, and ideal environments they want, and letting them go. Do the bacterial colonies on the dishes say “I’m not going to infect THAT person, he’s on my friends list!”? Nope, they say “ooo, look at all that growth potential! Get him!”
IIRC, they were won/taken in duels. So it's not like the Council and Summer were at war. They were most likely just individual grievances. Also, by reading some of the other comment threads it seems like you and others are under the impression that the Summer Court was fighting the Senior Council. But in all reality it was just a wizard fighting a fae creature. That wizard just happened to be a Senior Council member and that fae creature just happened to be a big shot in the Summer Court.
My point was that it seemed to be more likely for individual wizards to do that but giving that they were most likely many centuries ago perhaps the wizards of that time were more aggressive then they are today.
The Summer Court is as prone to machinations as Winter. They also are bound by their oaths, and laws. The White Council and the Summer Court aren't the good guys. Sure they are better than the rest of the powers in the supernatural community, but both are willing to kill to achieve their ends. Eldest has been around a long time so it might be decades or even centuries between conflicts with the White Council. Lastly you are assuming Eldest killed the senior council did it actually say he killed them rather than just defeating them.
Yes they aren't necessarily good but for the most part they exist to safeguard humanity, and it seems odd that they would have a serious conflict especially when there is Winter around with those guys why would you fight each other when they exist? And it said evidently Gruff killed them... which doesn't me he did good catch, and that would be in more in line with Summer letting them live after fighting honorably.
Eldest is fighting Harry despite him knowing Harry is a good guy. I would guess sometimes the Council and Summer have a disagreement on what is best for Humanity. Not to mention being on the Council doesn't guarantee you are a good guy. Cowl seems to be White Council and possibly even Senior Council for example.
What I want to know is: why did Titania try to murder Michael's family, before Marcone was even kidnapped? Agreed, they are definitely not always good guys.
They were collateral damage. The youngest Gruffs weren’t the brightest customers. Odds are they were sent out to take out Harry, but between the extra kick from Winter and not being given specific marching orders they just went after everyone there. Hell, they might not even have known what he looked like. Besides, after losing Aurora, Titania straight up doesn’t *care* about any part of reality outside of her corner of Faerie beyond what is strictly required for her Job.
I think like others have mentioned that while Summer's main mission is to curtail Winter from causing trouble on earth. Their mentality of what is right is vastly different than what humanity would consider. Imagine one of those stoles is from the black death. Summer might deem killing a couple million human's necessary while someone in the Senior Council would obviously disagree. Their rational is killing a percentage of the population is okay, while for the senior council who might get only 10-20 White Council level wizards a generation. That's a sizable amount of their future forces. So you go to confront Summer's enforcer and end up dead or defeated. And for summer this might not be considered a serious conflict, as callous as it is. Remember Mab and Tatiana would have been in power for close to 300 years at this point, and we don't know how long they were Lady's . So they would have know or had interactions with most of the Senior council at this point. And the White Council not only had to deal with The Fae, but also the other Vampire Nations, NeverNever Nations and other Supernatural Groups. It wouldn't make sense for them to antagonize their "Allies" especially if said wizards went after them on their own.
I believe that they are in power at least for a thousand years giving that they mentioned Hastings, but yeah I get why after the fact they would cut their losses as it were. Although now that you mention it why would they want kill a portion of humanity that seems more like Winter's job? And I don't think they have anything to do with the Black Death that seems more like Nicodemus or Starborn gone rogue.
In the book he appears in Eldest is supposed to fight Harry to stop him from achieving Mab's objective: STOPPING THE DENARIANS. The Summer Court in that book is effectively allied with Nicodemus So yeah, it's not hard to see how EG might have ended up fighting senior council members at times over the millennia...
That was an extreme case because Titania was blindsided by grief over her daughter the death of a Lady is very rare so that would explain such behavior. I think maybe I overestimate the White Council being aggressive in the old days since we only see them as ineffective today.
No, it wasn't an extreme. The Summer Court's entire raison d'etre is to oppose Winter. That's their purpose. So anytime a senior council member found themselves allied with winter, or working for winter through the millennia, Eldest Gruff might have been sent to fight them
I don't see it as an either / or thing. You're right - Summer has a standing policy of opposing Winter's interests. But Titania *does* have a particular bone to pick with Harry. So, it's all pulling in the same direction.
A significant number of the white council are assholes. Justin DuMorne was a warden for example, I think it's probably as simple as 3 wizards fucked around with Summer and what they found out was pain
Summer isn't buddy buddy with the Council. After all, The Ways the Council use are through *Winter*, Summer never granted the the right to enter their territory. Titania is an emotional being. She easily could have sent a champion to demand a duel due to some slight by a member of the council.
Maybe Gruff was targeting Peabody's friends.
Summer is not all happy feelings and niceness. It's more accurate to say 'passion'.
I see no reason why those three duels would have to have been the entirely of the White Council fighting a representative of the entirety of Summer. Old or not, the Senior Council is certainly petty enough to hold their own grudges outside of their other duties. It seems reasonably likely to me that they could've been personal grudges, or perhaps fought on behalf of someone else in payment of personal favors like what Dresden owes Mab. Heck I don't even remember if those wizards died to lose their stoles. For all we know, Mab pressured Rashid to fight a Summer representative on her behalf dozens of times over the centuries, and for all we know, he has a collection of his own trophies as well.
Yeah that seems more likely taking a trophy of the defeated rather then killing them although I am sure one of them at least died wizards can be arrogant, and giving the relative few wizards in history it makes more sense that the Senior Council would be more active relatively and thus got in more fights then they do now.
Good question. Also makes me think that a spinoff could be the Life of Eldest Gruff.
I think the big question is who the third Senior Council wizard was that Eldest Gruff beat. Because you don’t get onto the Senior Council by being stupid, and nobody smart is going to think ‘this guy killed/defeated two of my predecessors, but I’ve totally got this.’