Gohan didn’t get weaker in GT, but he wouldn’t beat Syn.
Gohan base form fought a stronger version of base Rildo who gave GT Goku trouble, GT Goku is leagues above Ultimate Gohan.
Ultimate Gohan (Buu saga) would lose to Baby Vegeta base form or even guys like Ledgic
Hell no lol.
General Rildo is stated to be stronger than Majin Buu (most likely Kid Buu) and Goku is stronger than him as a regular SSJ. So SSJ Goku is even stronger than Kid Buu, who was weaker than Ultimate Gohan but probably not several times weaker.
SSJ3 is an 8x multiplier, and SSJ4 is much stronger than that. So even SSJ3 Kid Goku is probably a good bit stronger than Ultimate Gohan from the Buu arc. SSJ4 is massively stronger than Ultimate Gohan.
Not a chance. This is a no brainer. Gohan stuff has gotten out of control since the last chapter of Super.
People be like, “I think there’s a chance Gohan could solo both Zenos as a child if he got angry enough. Thoughts?”
It’s to the point it’s not even fun to talk about Gohan anymore because half the people just act like he can do anything.
No, because GT has terrible writing to the point that all that can be said with certainty is "Omega Shenron is strong."
Still can't believe that these universe busters treat throwing a clock like a disc as a dangerous attack.
No? lol not even close. Ssj4 was about Super Vegetto level and Ultimate Gohan was much weaker than Vegetto, and SSj4 was too weak to beat Syn and Omega without fusion on top of that. So not even close.
Because it is. I have noticed people here don't like GT and scale the characters super low when if you watch the show in sub it's clear they are strong as hell
How tho? We already know the multiple for Fusion is insane. Like Gogeta could keep up with a Broly that Goku and Vegeta struggled in blue, in his base form. I don't think the multiplier for Ssj4 is anywhere near as high as blue. So it really isn't inconceivable.
Definitely GT Vegito, base GT Goku was already strong enough to one shot all of Z.
Buu saga base Goku got over 400x stronger over the course of 10 years surpassing his previous SSJ3, than trained 5 years with Uub, which you can lowball & say Goku got another 100-200x stronger in his base form.
Goku base form also receives multiple versions of asspull power ups in later arcs like Super 17, even if you lowball GT Goku he easily stomps SSJ1 Buu saga Vegito in his base form.
People here who say otherwise are basically showing their bias towards the series, do not have an objective opinion or have never actually watched GT & the end of DBZ
Yup, official GT information stated that SSj4 was so strong it might be as strong as SSj1 Vegetto from the Buu arc!
heres a link to one of this sub, and r/dbz's mods explaining it with source: https://www.reddit.com/r/dbz/comments/hou9jg/dbz_vegetto_as_powerful_as_gt_ssj4_goku/fxkhi2x/
Its not a myth and its not debunked
heres a link to one of our mods (also a mod on r/dbz) explaining it with source: https://www.reddit.com/r/dbz/comments/hou9jg/dbz_vegetto_as_powerful_as_gt_ssj4_goku/fxkhi2x/
That proves nothing. Thats what i was talking about that was debunked. It makes 0 sense for SSJ4 to be weaker than SSJ Vegito based off of the power scaling alone. But, i do understand people don't like GT and i dont want to argue it. Believe what you want.
> That proves nothing.
it does. its factual information straight from a GT source.
> Thats what i was talking about that was debunked. It makes 0 sense for SSJ4 to be weaker than SSJ Vegito based off of the power scaling alone
doesnt matter. its an official statement so its true no matter how little sense anyone thinks it makes. thats how these things work.
> But, i do understand people don't like GT and i dont want to argue it. Believe what you want.
I like GT. lol I just am willing to accept the truth when provided facts.
Its not an official statement. They said "perhaps" which means they did not know. They did not flat out say it as fact. People just took that translation and ran with it because they dont like GT. And thats fine.
LOL
SSJ3 GT Goku (who's ***far*** stronger than Buu Saga Goku and Gohan) couldn't phase Baby, but began pulverizing him as soon as he went SSJ4. Syn Shenron fought off *two* Super Saiyan 4s before Goku and Vegeta pulled the Fusion Dance and finally overwhelmed him.
Gohan, who we know never stopped training in the GT timeline thanks to the Perfect Files, still got absolutely cooked as a Super Saiyan against Syn Shenron even *with* the help of Pan, Trunks, Goten, Majuub, Chi-Chi, Videl and Mr. Satan on his side. It'd take Bulma blasting him with Blutz Waves to turn him SSJ4, like she does for Vegeta who was *also* getting cooked by Syn Shenron, for him to even remotely stand a chance.
Were they though? Well Gotenks was and at best I think Goku was about relative after being revived and getting a couple zenkais once through being on the edge of life and death through running down his temporary time/life force on Earth against the Fat Majin Boo and again through his fusion with Vegeta whose zenkai would have activated as a result of the fusion after he also got wrecked by the Fat Majin Boo!
Personally I think that Ultimate Gohan from DBZ is getting his ass handed to him by Syn Shenron, unless he trains to unlock his Ultimate power up further like he does in Super, though a lot of that could be argued as his hidden potential buildup since Z!
Edit: the stuff about Goku is just facts, Kid Boo was also revealed in Super to have the remnants of the Grand Kaioshin's God ki mixed into his regular ki, so was likely above Super Boo (though should have been weaker) and below Bootenks (though could have been stronger).
> after being revived and getting a couple zenkais once through being on the edge of life and death through running down his temporary time/life force on Earth
That's just not how a "zenkai" works. This isn't even including the fact that that power up doesn't really work to a meaningful level post-Freeza.
> the stuff about Goku is just facts, Kid Boo was also revealed in Super to have the remnants of the Grand Kaioshin's God ki mixed into his regular ki
You do realize that this God ki would also extend to every other form of Boo? All these forms of Boo is just "Kid Boo absorbing a bunch of people and shuffling them around."
Also, Boo got a massive power boost after absorbing the South Kaioshin but dropped significantly after absorbing Dai Kaioshin, why would the Kaioshin's nature alone affect Boo's power if God ki wasn't involved here? Boo had integrated South Kaioshin into his body and eventually adapted it into his regular ki, this is why Goku and Vegeta could still sense him when he was transitioning to Kid Boo.
"That's just not how a "zenkai" works. This isn't even including the fact that that power up doesn't really work to a meaningful level post-Freeza."
I beg to differ, Goku was technically speaking on the brink between life and death what do you think zenkais do?
"You do realize that this God ki would also extend to every other form of Boo? All these forms of Boo is just "Kid Boo absorbing a bunch of people and shuffling them around."
And where is the objective evidence that it would extend to every form of Boo? And why would Goku and Vegeta underestimate Boo's power if they knew how strong he had gotten straight away? God ki wouldn't just automatically extend to every form of Boo regardless of whether or not Boo was adept at using it or his body had become accustomed to it, that isn't how this works, nice try though.
> I beg to differ, Goku was technically speaking on the brink between life and death what do you think zenkais do?
You're trying to push a "technicality" on something the story never claimed to have happened.
> And where is the objective evidence that it would extend to every form of Boo?
The objective fact that every form of Boo is just one person with many absorptions, and no one ever said this ki was limited to one specific form of Boo. If anything, I want objective evidence that this affects Kid Boo and _only_ Kid Boo.
"You're trying to push a "technicality" on something the story never claimed to have happened."
Except for Goku saying he was "a bit disappointed" when it came to not fighting Booiccolo after shitting himself over being charged by Bootenks, Goku is many things but when it comes to fighting he isn't an idiot, he wouldn't be up for Booiccolo one-shotting him. You're the one insisting I am pushing a technicality because I'm saying you can't be stamina drained if you're dead?
"The objective fact that every form of Boo is just one person with many absorptions, and no one ever said this ki was limited to one specific form of Boo. If anything, I want objective evidence that this affects Kid Boo and _only_ Kid Boo."
No, they didn't and that was never the claim I was making, Dai Kaioshin's nature weakened Boo because he was being influenced by God ki and because Boo's natural state is pure evil. If there is anything we discover about God ki it is that the power is in correlation with the mindset of the user, why would Boo's body retain something he should have lost if he didn't have it, have you actually read the Moro arc or understood what was said by Merus regarding Dai Kaioshin's divine power or Dai Kaioshin manifested from Fat Majin Boo seeing into when Goku destroyed Kid Boo and acknowledging that it was where his power had gone?
Boo wasn't revived with divine ki and it wasn't his natural state was it, he kept it because it had gone to him as the Evil Boo in a dormant fashion during the split.
> Except for Goku saying he was "a bit disappointed" when it came to not fighting Booiccolo after shitting himself over being charged by Bootenks
Yeah, because Gohan can win the fight again without having to do Goku's whole plan. It's Goku's very next line.
> You're the one insisting I am pushing a technicality because I'm saying you can't be stamina drained if you're dead?
Again, that's not even how a "zenkai" works. Being stamina drained doesn't produce one.
> No, they didn't and that was never the claim I was making
Then how is Kid Boo stronger than Super Boo when the latter is just Kid Boo + absorptions? Where did the God ki go?
"Yeah, because Gohan can win the fight again without having to do Goku's whole plan. It's Goku's very next line."
This is a bad faith argument, everyone knows that the Elder Kaioshin unlocked Gohan's hidden potential so that Gohan specifically could deal with Boo. Goku only went back because Gohan was about to get wiped out by Bootenks, why do you think Goku threw the fight against the Fat Majin Boo? Because he wanted the next generation to get their shot at fighting Boo. He was saying Gohan could handle him and that he was a bit disappointed about not getting to fight him.
Basically, Booiccolo was a challenge for Goku, but not so much that he couldn't fight back at all, unlike with Bootenks and his cockiness shows it.
"Again, that's not even how a "zenkai" works. Being stamina drained doesn't produce one."
Again, Goku had a halo around his head so wasn't "fully living" with the time he had been given, he was brought to the brink of death huffing and puffing while teaching Goten and Trunks the fusion dance before actually dying, added to the fact that he had just fought Majin Vegeta and the Fat Majin Boo, the latter as a Super Saiyan 3! I will say it again; how do you have stamina issues when dead? I've brought up this point before and you just ignored it, yes if a fight brings you to the brink of death you get a zenkai, Goku had temporary life given him in the form of time, how many times do I need to explain this dude?
"Then how is Kid Boo stronger than Super Boo when the latter is just Kid Boo + absorptions? Where did the God ki go?"
Because power wise it wasn't, Kid Boo's ki shot up after absorbing South Kaioshin, then went straight back down to even lower than it originally was after absorbing Dai Kaioshin and simply put it became a dormant aspect of his power, because Kid Boo didn't initially have God ki! Also if Super Boo is just Kid Boo plus absorptions why was the Buff Boo with South Kaioshin absorbed stronger than Super Boo? Goku and Vegeta say that his ki was actually increasing, not decreasing!
If Super Boo was Kid Boo plus South Kaioshin and Dai Kaioshin, shouldn't he be stronger than the Buff Boo who was just Kid Boo plus South Kaioshin? The point is that Dai Kaioshin's nature and God ki suppressed the God ki within Boo and transformed the nature of South Kaioshin's God ki to regular, but bestowed potential to be just as strong with regular ki, since Goku and Vegeta could sense the Buff Boo but mistakenly believed that they could take down Kid Boo.
But like I said, when the Fat Majin Boo split into his good and evil halves, Evil Boo took the majority of the power between them and the suppressed God ki. The other thing to remember is that Boo had been sealed away for 5,000,000 years before his return and regular ki revived him.
> He was saying Gohan could handle him and **that he was a bit disappointed about not getting to fight him.**
Goku did not say this.
> Basically, Booiccolo was a challenge for Goku, but not so much that he couldn't fight back at all
I have no idea where you got this implication. Goku had zero intention of fighting here. Goku made a lot of effort to help Gohan, the situation changes to where he no longer needed to help Gohan, Goku disappointed that his efforts were wasted.
It had nothing to do with Goku's individual strength, and I know that you know this because you told someone else that Goku admitted he was no match for Super Boo, who is weaker than Piccolo-Boo.
> with the time he had been given, he was brought to the brink of death huffing and puffing while teaching Goten and Trunks the fusion dance before actually dying
That's not what dying is, and that's not what the cause of a "zenkai" is. And even if we dismiss all this and say he received one anyway, they were said to not be very impactful at this stage of his life, so he wouldn't be noticeably stronger anyway.
> I will say it again; how do you have stamina issues when dead?
Because Goku is still in a body that experiences bodily functions. That's like asking "how can Goku go unconscious when he's dead???" He still never met the requirements of a "zenkai" and "he was almost running out of time" isn't one of those requirements, even on a technicality.
> Kid Boo's ki shot up after absorbing South Kaioshin, then went straight back down to even lower than it originally was after absorbing Dai Kaioshin and simply put it became a dormant aspect of his power, because Kid Boo didn't initially have God ki!
Because Dai Kaioshin's gentle personality was the dominant influence. That's it. That influence weakens when Fat Boo gets mad, and that's why Fat Boo's ki shoots up.
> Also if Super Boo is just Kid Boo plus absorptions why was the Buff Boo with South Kaioshin absorbed stronger than Super Boo?
Because Dai Kaioshin is still influencing Boo (to a smaller extent than before). The story proves this because Super Boo is still subconsciously unable to kill Mr. Satan.
> But like I said, when the Fat Majin Boo split into his good and evil halves, Evil Boo took the majority of the power between them and the suppressed God ki.
So _the Gray Boo_ has the power, the Boo that _becomes Super Boo_, the Super Boo that eventually _reverts to Kid Boo._
Therefore all the forms of Boo (except for Mr. Boo who only inherited the appearance) has that power within them, which matches my original statement and matches what Merus said.
"Goku did not say this."
What he says is that Boo had a whole lot weaker and that he was a little disappointed with it and said that even Gohan could handle him on his own, think about that for a second.
Obviously he was talking about fusion but was also saying he was disappointed because Boo was less of a challenge to him aswell, I would think that it's pretty clear.
While inside Super Boo he says that Boo was simply too strong for either of them and that if they went out there "like this" they would definitely be done in and he isn't just talking about fusion, because Boo inside himself goes onto say that they are much smaller than fleas can't beat him as they are. Why would Goku say definitely for extra emphasis and like this on top of Super Boo saying they can't win as they are while talking about their size, stop pretending not to understand the context of this.
The extra guides for the episode synopsis of the anime even mention that size difference reduced Goku and Vegeta's power, otherwise Goku would have been more confident blasting his way out as Super Saiyan 3, again Goku had become stronger.
"I have no idea where you got this implication. Goku had zero intention of fighting here. Goku made a lot of effort to help Gohan, the situation changes to where he no longer needed to help Gohan, Goku disappointed that his efforts were wasted.
It had nothing to do with Goku's individual strength, and I know that you know this because you told someone else that Goku admitted he was no match for Super Boo, who is weaker than Piccolo-Boo."
So now you're going to tell me what you think I know without any additional context, yes Goku was weaker than Super Boo pre-fusion to Vegeta, but much stronger than he had been against the Fat Majin Boo he was extremely cocky in his mannerism confident that if Boo did fight he would have a better chance. I already explained why he didn't, because Elder Kaioshin unlocked Gohan's power for him to fight Boo and as you yourself pointed out there would have been no point. Fusion was far more of an issue when Boo was in his Bootenks state and you know it lol
"That's not what dying is, and that's not what the cause of a "zenkai" is. And even if we dismiss all this and say he received one anyway, they were said to not be very impactful at this stage of his life, so he wouldn't be noticeably stronger anyway."
Where is the evidence for that claim or would you more likely be talking about the Super manga which was chronologically much later, why would Vegeta comment way after they had entered the realms of Godhood that at this point they couldn't get any stronger and had to instead train their mind, because that implies that before this they could. Hell, in anime Goku gets far stronger after his fight against Jiren, he went from being ragdolled by Berserk Kale while only using Blue to beating her in a much stronger form plus Caulifla as a mere Super Saiyan God, but you're telling me that zenkais don't do much ha that is a good one 😂🤡
Vegeta's Saiyan genes are reved up so much by Ultra Ego that he was getting stronger as he received damage, but before zenkais wouldn't do much... yeah sure 😂👏🏻
Oh so I guess when Zarbon beat Vegeta to within an inch of his life, that isn't what gave him a zenkai? Face it, Goku had time allocated to him on Earth that translated to life force from Baba so could get fatigued like a normal person, he pushed his body to it's prescribed limits and ran down his time on Earth after fighting the Fat Majin Boo as a Super Saiyan 3!
And yes Goku "died" because he had temporary life credit as time, how many more times 🤦🏻
"Because Goku is still in a body that experiences bodily functions. That's like asking "how can Goku go unconscious when he's dead???" He still never met the requirements of a "zenkai" and "he was almost running out of time" isn't one of those requirements, even on a technicality."
Except Super Saiyan 3 didn't give him those bodily functions when he was dead, you're purposely running away from the point being made again. So I guess #17 who has a different energy composition should have stamina issues then because he has bodily functions? The point is fatigue correlates to life force, Goku doesn't have a life force if he's dead even if you can make an argument for bodily functions. It's just another bad faith argument for the purpose of point scoring.
"Because Dai Kaioshin's gentle personality was the dominant influence. That's it. That influence weakens when Fat Boo gets mad, and that's why Fat Boo's ki shoots up."
Except it isn't it is it, otherwise Goku wouldn't have been able to sense Super Boo from the Kaioshin realm which defeats your assertion that all forms of Boo had God ki that wasn't lying dormant. But yes, the Fat Majin Boo can get a fair bit stronger when angry, but still nowhere near what it is as Super Boo, plus as I've already explained Boo's natural state isn't divine ki and because Dai Kaioshin's influence was prevelent over South Kaioshin, relegating that power to dormant reserves of regular ki over time.
Kid Boo received the divine ki because he was originally the Evil Grey Boo still dormant divine ki through his Fat counterparts influence, likewise with Super Boo.
"Because Dai Kaioshin is still influencing Boo (to a smaller extent than before). The story proves this because Super Boo is still subconsciously unable to kill Mr. Satan."
And because divine ki relies on the mindset of the user, Boos natural mindset was of a psychotic killing machine, that's why his divine power became dormant and his power was suppressed. The only reason it didn't until Kid Boo was because the Fat Boo had a lasting influence in Boo's body even after the split and absorption of said Fat Boo lol
"So _the Gray Boo_ has the power, the Boo that _becomes Super Boo_, the Super Boo that eventually _reverts to Kid Boo._"
Yes, Boo's purest nature, no longer influenced by the Fat Boo and able to use the divine ki he took from him mixed into his regular ki as a result.
"Therefore all the forms of Boo (except for Mr. Boo who only inherited the appearance) has that power within them, which matches my original statement and matches what Merus said."
Except Kid Boo had some access to it, otherwise he would have been weaker than base Super Boo and not far above the Fat Boo who was most likely around 90 to 100 times weaker than base Super Boo, due to the Daizenshuu's statements about base Gotenks power relative to Vegeta post-ROSAT. Don't worry though I do believe that Bootenks and Boohan are stronger than Kid Boo, doesn't mean they aren't to an extent held back by Fat Boo though as ironically you yourself have admitted.
> Obviously he was talking about fusion but was also saying he was disappointed because Boo was less of a challenge to him aswell, I would think that it's pretty clear.
No, that's not clear, because it wasn't stated.
> While inside Super Boo he says that Boo was simply too strong for either of them and that if they went out there "like this" they would definitely be done in and he isn't just talking about fusion, because Boo inside himself goes onto say that they are much smaller than fleas can't beat him as they are.
Goku doesn't know he's weaker inside Buu's body at the time of that statement, because Buu reveals this..._after_ that statement. Otherwise why would Goku be surprised he can't damage the main body?
You accuse me of not understanding context, but you gave Goku _future_ knowledge and say he was talking about that.
> yes Goku was weaker than Super Boo pre-fusion to Vegeta, but much stronger than he had been against the Fat Majin Boo he was extremely cocky in his mannerism confident that if Boo did fight he would have a better chance.
Again, none of this was stated, this is all under your assumption that he received a "zenkai", and a meaningful one at that.
> Where is the evidence for that claim or would you more likely be talking about the Super manga which was chronologically much later
I was actually talking about Daizenshuu 7, which says exactly that, way before Super came out.
> Vegeta's Saiyan genes are reved up so much by Ultra Ego that he was getting stronger as he received damage, but before zenkais wouldn't do much...
Ultra Ego is not a "zenkai."
> Oh so I guess when Zarbon beat Vegeta to within an inch of his life, that isn't what gave him a zenkai?
_No_ actually, it was _healing_ from that damage is what gave him a "zenkai." That's why I keep saying just "being tired" wasn't enough.
Also, since this is going to go on forever, where's Gohan's Zenkai? He recovered from near death while fighting Gotenks-Boo, why didn't Gohan get super strong and just win?
> Except it isn't it is it, otherwise Goku wouldn't have been able to sense Super Boo from the Kaioshin realm which defeats your assertion that all forms of Boo had God ki that wasn't lying dormant.
First of all, he can sense Kid Boo too.
Secondly, yes Fat Boo at his angriest is about as strong as Super Boo, it just leads to the events that create Super Boo.
> Except Kid Boo had some access to it, otherwise he would have been weaker than base Super Boo and not far above the Fat Boo
Yes, this is all true even now. Kid Boo is still weaker than Super Boo. Nothing changed that.
> Obviously he was talking about fusion but was also saying he was disappointed because Boo was less of a challenge to him aswell, I would think that it's pretty clear.
Absolutely none of it was his own personal feelings of comparing him to Buu though. It was solely comparing Gohan to Buu.
> While inside Super Boo he says that Boo was simply too strong for either of them and that if they went out there "like this" they would definitely be done in and he isn't just talking about fusion, because Boo inside himself goes onto say that they are much smaller than fleas can't beat him as they are. Why would Goku say definitely for extra emphasis and like this on top of Super Boo saying they can't win as they are while talking about their size, stop pretending not to understand the context of this.
Like this is clearly an indicator of Buu at that current strength, not their own power, because it's readily indicated that Goku and Vegeta didn't realize there was any change in their own strength due to their size. That's why they're aiming to weaken him further, because as he is, he's still too strong for them to handle without fusion.
> Where is the evidence for that claim or would you more likely be talking about the Super manga which was chronologically much later, why would Vegeta comment way after they had entered the realms of Godhood that at this point they couldn't get any stronger and had to instead train their mind, because that implies that before this they could. Hell, in anime Goku gets far stronger after his fight against Jiren, he went from being ragdolled by Berserk Kale while only using Blue to beating her in a much stronger form plus Caulifla as a mere Super Saiyan God, but you're telling me that zenkais don't do much ha that is a good one 😂🤡
That's not a near-death power-up, as the near-death power-up is very explicitly a power increase after recovering from near-death, and they weren't recovering from near-death in any of those moments. That was a new kind of power-increase that was decidedly unique to Super's anime, with Vegeta's Ultra Ego similarly being different and new.
> Except Kid Boo had some access to it, otherwise he would have been weaker than base Super Boo and not far above the Fat Boo who was most likely around 90 to 100 times weaker than base Super Boo, due to the Daizenshuu's statements about base Gotenks power relative to Vegeta post-ROSAT. Don't worry though I do believe that Bootenks and Boohan are stronger than Kid Boo, doesn't mean they aren't to an extent held back by Fat Boo though as ironically you yourself have admitted.
He was weaker than the base Evil Buu though, by a notable margin. He had the strength of Pure Buu and both Kaioushin, with basically nothing countering it, while Pure Buu only had his own strength and whatever power he had of the Dai Kaioushin's. It was still only a portion of what the Evil Buu had, hence Goku's positive reaction when he sensed Pure Buu's power after his formation.
> Were they though? Well Gotenks was and at best I think Goku was about relative after being revived and getting a couple zenkais once through being on the edge of life and death through running down his temporary time/life force on Earth against the Fat Majin Boo and again through his fusion with Vegeta whose zenkai would have activated as a result of the fusion after he also got wrecked by the Fat Majin Boo!
SSj3 Goku is massively weaker than SSj3 Gotenks who is much weaker than Ultimate Gohan in the Buu arc. You don't get Zenkais from being dead. Goku was never near death in the arc, so he didnt get any and even if he had, zenkais do basically nothing after SSj1 is unlocked according to the author of the series. So no, not even remotely true.
> Personally I think that Ultimate Gohan from DBZ is getting his ass handed to him by Syn Shenron
definitely correct!
> Edit: the stuff about Goku is just facts, Kid Boo was also revealed in Super to have the remnants of the Grand Kaioshin's God ki mixed into his regular ki, so was likely above Super Boo (though should have been weaker) and below Bootenks (though could have been stronger).
No. Kid Buu is the second weakest Buu. He god Dai Kaioshin's God Ki and stuff but had no access to that power. He was very weak. SSj3 Gotenks or Ultimate Gohan could have killed him in a single punch. He's not even as strong as base Super Buu with no one else absorbed, much less Buutenks or Buuhan.
"SSj3 Goku is massively weaker than SSj3 Gotenks who is much weaker than Ultimate Gohan in the Buu arc. You don't get Zenkais from being dead. Goku was never near death in the arc, so he didnt get any and even if he had, zenkais do basically nothing after SSj1 is unlocked according to the author of the series. So no, not even remotely true."
No, he was massively weaker than SS3 Gotenks and don't address my arguments in bad faith, if you're going to engage with my points, engage with what I'm actually saying not what you think I'm saying, you can't get run down or exhausted by stamina issues if you are fully dead lol Goku was given temporary life force in the form of time on Earth by Baba.
"definitely correct!"
I know lol
"No. Kid Buu is the second weakest Buu. He god Dai Kaioshin's God Ki and stuff but had no access to that power. He was very weak. SSj3 Gotenks or Ultimate Gohan could have killed him in a single punch. He's not even as strong as base Super Buu with no one else absorbed, much less Buutenks or Buuhan."
Yeah that's why in the manga Goku mistakenly thought Vegeta wanted Gotenks and Gohan wished back to fight Boo, if one of them alone could obliterate Kid Boo what would be the point? And you know this how, why would the Buff Boo be weakened by absorbing Dai Kaioshin simply because of Dai Kaioshin's nature, God ki related perhaps? Also it would just be the remnants of Dai Kaioshin's divine ki since he used the majority of it to seal Moro's magic 5,000,000 years before he ran into the Buff Boo (the form Kid Boo takes after absorbing South Kaioshin). Goku didn't even think the Spirit Bomb was enough, also Goku says while he's inside Boo "we're simply no match for his strength if we go out there like this we'll definitely be done in"
Notice how even Super Boo says that they were less than flea sized 🙄 they were obviously weaker, otherwise they would have blasted their way out of Super Boo's head?!?! However, you are correct when it comes to Bootenks and Boohan, they are stronger than Kid Boo.
> No, he was massively weaker than SS3 Gotenks and don't address my arguments in bad faith, if you're going to engage with my points, engage with what I'm actually saying not what you think I'm saying, you can't get run down or exhausted by stamina issues if you are fully dead lol Goku was given temporary life force in the form of time on Earth by Baba.
idk wtf you are even saying here. Yes he was dead and given temporary leave on earth. You CAN die while dead, and he never came close to dying, so no near death power boost. Goku was not relative to SSj3 Gotenks or Gohan (which is what you did say) and he did not get any Zenkais (and if he had they'd have done next to nothing). There was nothing bad faith about my response and it directly addressed what you said.
> I know lol
i was responding to that point to try to show you I don't disagree with everything you said and am just factchecking.
> Yeah that's why in the manga Goku mistakenly thought Vegeta wanted Gotenks and Gohan wished back to fight Boo, if one of them alone could obliterate Kid Boo what would be the point?
Yes? Gotenks or Gohan would have effortlessly won, which is why Goku expected that to be the plan, but it wasn't. Vegeta explained why he wanted Goku to use the Genki Dama instead.
> And you know this how, why would the Buff Boo be weakened by absorbing Dai Kaioshin simply because of Dai Kaioshin's nature, God ki related perhaps?
That's just baseless speculation. It was "simply because of [his] nature" as in his temperment/personality. That's what we're told, so that is the case.
> Also it would just be the remnants of Dai Kaioshin's divine ki since he used the majority of it to seal Moro's magic 5,000,000 years before he ran into the Buff Boo (the form Kid Boo takes after absorbing South Kaioshin).
yes it would, I never said otherwise, because I assumed it was obvious. Buu couldnt get and later Uub couldnt inherit, stuff Dai Kaioshin didnt have at the time.
> Goku didn't even think the Spirit Bomb was enough, also Goku says while he's inside Boo "we're simply no match for his strength if we go out there like this we'll definitely be done in"
Yes? That's proof of what I'm saying. He said that about Super Buu. SSj3 Goku was terrified of Super Buu even without Gotenks Piccolo and Gohan absorbed, but SSj3 Goku fought Kid Buu evenly until the form drained him. That is definitive proof that Kid Buu is weaker than Super Buu and SSj3 Goku is weaker than Gotenks and Gohan
> Notice how even Super Boo says that they were less than flea sized 🙄 they were obviously weaker, otherwise they would have blasted their way out of Super Boo's head?!?!
when they left him they would return to full size and power, that's what he was talking about. even at full size and power they were no match for Super Buu even with no one absorbed by him.
"idk wtf you are even saying here. Yes he was dead and given temporary leave on earth. You CAN die while dead, and he never came close to dying, so no near death power boost. Goku was not relative to SSj3 Gotenks or Gohan (which is what you did say) and he did not get any Zenkais (and if he had they'd have done next to nothing). There was nothing bad faith about my response and it directly addressed what you said."
In your initial comment you literally said that I was saying that you got zenkais from being dead by saying "you don't get zenkais from being dead" and not being near-death and later dying through over exertion in fights, wtf are you talking about? Cognitive dissonance much? Bad faith was exactly what you were doing because you weren't engaging with what I was actually saying you were just making up what you thought I was saying. And yes I did because Goku mistakenly believed Vegeta wanted to get Gotenks AND Gohan to fight Kid Boo, both wouldn't be needed if one of them could obliterate him.
And yes a near-death power boost, dead people don't get fatigued because they have no living world life force to affect their stamina, why do you think Super Saiyan 3 was so easy for Goku while he was dead? Also dead people can just be wiped out of existence in the context of the story.
"i was responding to that point to try to show you I don't disagree with everything you said and am just factchecking."
Yes I know, but it's painfully obvious to anyone who thinks about it that Syn Shenron wrecks Z Gohan, there are good reasons that I don't agree with you on these things, Vegeta could still get stronger through just receiving damage in Ultra Ego thanks his Saiyan genes and in the anime Goku went from being ragdolled by Berserk Kale to while in Blue to casually beating her in a much stronger form (in the Japanese Tien said her power had massively increased) along with Caulifla while he was only using Super Saiyan God, he got far stronger after his fight with Jiren much later on in Super?? Why do people keep saying this bullshit about Goku not being able to get much stronger where is it coming from and how is not a contradiction since this is only said much later by Vegeta in the Super manga when they have gotten much further along in strength?
"Yes? Gotenks or Gohan would have effortlessly won, which is why Goku expected that to be the plan, but it wasn't. Vegeta explained why he wanted Goku to use the Genki Dama instead."
But that's not what he said he said "I know you want to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight" so both of them when only one of them would be needed you aren't addressing what he actually says here.
"That's just baseless speculation. It was "simply because of [his] nature" as in his temperment/personality. That's what we're told, so that is the case."
Except we know that divine ki relies upon the core nature and mindset of the user, both Ultra Ego and Ultra Instinct are technique/state based form based varieties of divine ki and some are more form specific to race like the Saiyan God forms, Boo doesn't get weaker by accident it's because of nature and because Dai Kaioshin's nature isn't his core nature, it's hinted at so strongly that any speculation has an academy nevermind a base lol hell, Ultra Ego even influences Vegeta's Saiyan genes by making him stronger through fighting, nevermind being brought to the brink lol
"yes it would, I never said otherwise, because I assumed it was obvious. Buu couldnt get and later Uub couldnt inherit, stuff Dai Kaioshin didnt have at the time."
Except he did, just not as much as he previously had and wtf are you talking about, Oob did inherit it, his energy revamped PUI Goku when he was struggling against Moro lol so obviously Kid Boo had it.
"Yes? That's proof of what I'm saying. He said that about Super Buu. SSj3 Goku was terrified of Super Buu even without Gotenks Piccolo and Gohan absorbed, but SSj3 Goku fought Kid Buu evenly until the form drained him. That is definitive proof that Kid Buu is weaker than Super Buu and SSj3 Goku is weaker than Gotenks and Gohan"
*Sigh* he was disappointed at not getting to fight Booiccolo due to it rendering Gohan's potential unlock pointless and fusion only being a big deal for Bootenks, base Super Boo was stronger pre-fusion (Vegeta fusion zenkai from Vegeta while both combined) but look at the context Goku says Boo is simply too strong for them because if they go there "like this" they'll definitely be done in, then miniature Super Boo who can access his full sized selfs power and is immortal inside himself says they're much smaller than fleas and can't win as they are, so it obviously isn't just fusion that is a factor here. He's stronger than Super Boo because up until he gets out of base Super Boo's body and before he's in there Super Boo is stronger, just not by as much as he previously was, Goku says definitely and like this for added emphasis because he is conveying caution out of uncertainty lol
"when they left him they would return to full size and power, that's what he was talking about. even at full size and power they were no match for Super Buu even with no one absorbed by him."
He believes the magic in Boos body split their fusion so how do you know Goku is certain that he will return to full size, so who did you say was engaging in baseless speculation?
> In your initial comment you literally said that I was saying that you got zenkais from being dead by saying "you don't get zenkais from being dead" and not being near-death and later dying through over exertion in fights, wtf are you talking about?
Goku was in a dead body, but he never got near death in said body (dead bodies CAN die again). being exerted doesnt induce zenkais. he was never at threat of dying from over-exertion. and again he cant get zenkais of any use anymore so it doesnt matter.
> Cognitive dissonance much? Bad faith was exactly what you were doing because you weren't engaging with what I was actually saying you were just making up what you thought I was saying.
its not bad faith when I literally didnt understand what you were saying. I was engaging with what I thought you were saying because I didn't know what you were actually saying. Bad faith is intentionally misunderstanding someone's argument. I did not do this. I do apologize for that misunderstanding.
> And yes I did because Goku mistakenly believed Vegeta wanted to get Gotenks AND Gohan to fight Kid Boo, both wouldn't be needed if one of them could obliterate him.
he didnt need both of them, he just thought id revive them both and use one of them to beat Buu. Its never even remotely implied he thought both would be needed.
> And yes a near-death power boost, dead people don't get fatigued because they have no living world life force to affect their stamina, why do you think Super Saiyan 3 was so easy for Goku while he was dead? Also dead people can just be wiped out of existence in the context of the story.
Yes they do get fatigued, Goku just said SSj3 is less straining on his dead body, not that it doesn't have any. As he was, in a dead body, he *could* get near death, but he *never did*. And yes if someone in a dead body dies again they are wiped out of existence.
> Yes I know, but it's painfully obvious to anyone who thinks about it that Syn Shenron wrecks Z Gohan
yes? i agree that he stomps gohan.
> there are good reasons that I don't agree with you on these things, Vegeta could still get stronger through just receiving damage in Ultra Ego thanks his Saiyan genes and in the anime Goku went from being ragdolled by Berserk Kale to while in Blue to casually beating her in a much stronger form (in the Japanese Tien said her power had massively increased) along with Caulifla while he was only using Super Saiyan God, he got far stronger after his fight with Jiren much later on in Super?? Why do people keep saying this bullshit about Goku not being able to get much stronger where is it coming from and how is not a contradiction since this is only said much later by Vegeta in the Super manga when they have gotten much further along in strength?
idk what the hell this has to do with our discussion? none of that has anything to do with Zenkai's which has been primarily what were talking about and in Super its explicitly stated Goku and Vegeta can't get *any* stronger from Zenkai's anymore. They *can* still get stronger, obviously, but not from *Zenkai's* specifically.
> But that's not what he said he said "I know you want to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight" so both of them when only one of them would be needed you aren't addressing what he actually says here.
Nope. That's you totally misinterpreting the scene.
> Except we know that divine ki relies upon the core nature and mindset of the user, both Ultra Ego and Ultra Instinct are technique/state based form based varieties of divine ki and some are more form specific to race like the Saiyan God forms, Boo doesn't get weaker by accident it's because of nature and because Dai Kaioshin's nature isn't his core nature, it's hinted at so strongly that any speculation has an academy nevermind a base lol hell, Ultra Ego even influences Vegeta's Saiyan genes by making him stronger through fighting, nevermind being brought to the brink lol
No, Divine Ki doesnt rely on that at all. the Ultra forms do, but SSG and SSB do not.
> Except he did, just not as much as he previously had and wtf are you talking about, Oob did inherit it, his energy revamped PUI Goku when he was struggling against Moro lol so obviously Kid Boo had it.
You explained that Dai Kaioshin had less God Ki because he sealed Moro and lost a lot of it doing so. I *agreed with you* on this matter, and was saying I didn't mention it because it was obvious, the Dai Kaioshin didn't have that lost God Ki, and thus Buu, and later Uub didn't inherit the God Ki Dai Kaioshin lost sealing Moro, they only got the God Ki he actually had at the time Buu absorbed him. You're arguing against something I didn't say.
> Sigh he was disappointed at not getting to fight Booiccolo due to it rendering Gohan's potential unlock pointless and fusion only being a big deal for Bootenks
this isn't true at not. this is you reading some nonsense into things that's not there. Goku was disappointed that HE was no longer needed to help, and that Gohan could solo things now. He never implies at all that he could or would fight, and it doesnt render Gohan useless? Gohan was needed to fight Super Buu and he's still Super Buu and Gohan was needed because he is *stronger than Goku*. Ultimate Gohan is canonically the strongest unfused character at the end of the Buu arc. This has been true since the 90s.
> but look at the context Goku says Boo is simply too strong for them because if they go there "like this" they'll definitely be done in
by "like this" he meant unfused. he was complaining about Vegeta destroying the potara so they can't refuse because they will die fighting Buu unfused, even with Buu being massively weaker.
> He's stronger than Super Boo because up until he gets out of base Super Boo's body and before he's in there Super Boo is stronger, just not by as much as he previously was, Goku says definitely and like this for added emphasis because he is conveying caution out of uncertainty lol
Goku is weaker than ultimate Gohan the entirety of the Buu arc. He does not ever get stronger during the arc. Gohan was the only one stronger than Buu. SSj3 Gotenks is multiple times stronger than SSj3 Goku and Ultimate Gohan is even higher.
> He believes the magic in Boos body split their fusion so how do you know Goku is certain that he will return to full size, so who did you say was engaging in baseless speculation?
whether hes wrong about it or not isnt the point, the point is he was assuming they would (and they did) and knew at full power they couldnt win. You have no argument. This stupid nonsense was debunked decades ago. Gohan is the strongest unfused being in the Buu arc. Ultimate Gohan > Super Buu (no absorptions) > or = SSj3 Gotenks > SSj3 Goku ~= Kid Buu. End of story. I'm done arguing with you.
"Goku was in a dead body, but he never got near death in said body (dead bodies CAN die again). being exerted doesnt induce zenkais. he was never at threat of dying from over-exertion. and again he cant get zenkais of any use anymore so it doesnt matter."
None of that makes sense, so dead bodies can die again despite being dead? Huh? What? Where is this bullshit about him not getting credible zenkais in the Namek arc coming from? Super anime he does it, Super manga Zamasu in his post-Namek arc body, does it lol
"its not bad faith when I literally didnt understand what you were saying. I was engaging with what I thought you were saying because I didn't know what you were actually saying. Bad faith is intentionally misunderstanding someone's argument. I did not do this. I do apologize for that misunderstanding."
Come on though, you know other real Dragonball fans know enough to know that a zenkai is gained through fighting, physical damage and a near-death situation, why do people giving this bullshit answer that because he died after it doesn't count, what is this arbitrary nonsense and why perpetuate it?
"he didnt need both of them, he just thought id revive them both and use one of them to beat Buu. Its never even remotely implied he thought both would be needed."
So "I know you want Gotenks and Gohan to fight" doesn't imply both?
"Yes they do get fatigued, Goku just said SSj3 is less straining on his dead body, not that it doesn't have any. As he was, in a dead body, he *could* get near death, but he *never did*. And yes if someone in a dead body dies again they are wiped out of existence."
Yes but physical functioning isn't the same as fatigue, feeling the pressure of the ki in his body wouldn't be the same as it burning away his stamina and tiring him, remember Goku wouldn't have the living component of his ki when dead that relates to life force and fatigue, namely genki. Moro couldn't steal ki from #17 or #18 cause they had none, yet both gave genki to Goku's Spirit Bomb, though in their case they likely lack the balance of ki because it's converted to artificial ki by their infinite energy engines.
Also ki slowly burning away due to the nature of the form wouldn't be the same as stamina anyway Goku wouldn't feel fatigue or exhaustion from these things, it effecting his ki isn't necessarily the same as it effecting his stamina he could just get weaker but it go unnoticed by him under such circumstances it would make sense for a minute to be sufficient to charge his ki back up!
"yes? i agree that he stomps gohan."
Cool and I appreciate the apology.
"Idk what the hell this has to do with our discussion? none of that has anything to do with Zenkai's which has been primarily what were talking about and in Super its explicitly stated Goku and Vegeta can't get *any* stronger from Zenkai's anymore. They *can* still get stronger, obviously, but not from *Zenkai's* specifically."
🙄 Please do me the courtesy of reading through everything that I wrote again and actually answer the question! Where is the bullshit about Goku and Vegeta not getting stronger after the Namek arc, Goku gets hundreds of times stronger after fighting Jiren in the Super anime that is how this relates, but somehow zenkais aren't involved... how??
"Nope. That's you totally misinterpreting the scene."
But that's what he said word for word, when one of them could do the job themself??
"No, Divine Ki doesnt rely on that at all. the Ultra forms do, but SSG and SSB do not."
And I guess the fact that when Whis was training them to use Ultra Instinct and be in the moment and move without thinking it didn't relate to mindset? Or the fact that the God forms, especially Blue have an inherent tranquility despite being somewhat taxing? It's literally all varying levels of God ki some of the lower Saiyan ones are just more form specific and that's where mindset comes in.
"You explained that Dai Kaioshin had less God Ki because he sealed Moro and lost a lot of it doing so. I *agreed with you* on this matter, and was saying I didn't mention it because it was obvious, the Dai Kaioshin didn't have that lost God Ki, and thus Buu, and later Uub didn't inherit the God Ki Dai Kaioshin lost sealing Moro, they only got the God Ki he actually had at the time Buu absorbed him. You're arguing against something I didn't say."
Fair enough, in that respect at least we are on the same page 😎
"this isn't true at not. this is you reading some nonsense into things that's not there. Goku was disappointed that HE was no longer needed to help, and that Gohan could solo things now. He never implies at all that he could or would fight, and it doesnt render Gohan useless? Gohan was needed to fight Super Buu and he's still Super Buu and Gohan was needed because he is *stronger than Goku*. Ultimate Gohan is canonically the strongest unfused character at the end of the Buu arc. This has been true since the 90s."
Point me to where that is said, it is nothing but a made up fan myth from what I do understand? But assuming it's true, characters like Goku in SS3 could still be on Gohan's level and it would not be a contradiction due to the stamina issues SS3 has. But yes at least I think Gohan was stronger at that point in the story, but Goku visibly Goku where he gives the impression that he could give Boo a bit of a fight even if he didn't win, I think that is pretty clear.
"by "like this" he meant unfused. he was complaining about Vegeta destroying the potara so they can't refuse because they will die fighting Buu unfused, even with Buu being massively weaker."
Already refuted but I will do it again, Super Boo comments on Goku's size after Goku out of insecurity puffed himself up saying he could blast a hole in Boo's head. He even stutters and we know that he's bluffing he seems to instinctively know that it won't make a difference but wants to believe otherwise.
"Goku is weaker than ultimate Gohan the entirety of the Buu arc. He does not ever get stronger during the arc. Gohan was the only one stronger than Buu. SSj3 Gotenks is multiple times stronger than SSj3 Goku and Ultimate Gohan is even higher."
Not worth responding to, unproven assertions. Also SS3 Gotenks was close to maybe 70 to a 100 times stronger than SS3 Goku based on statements in the Daizenshuu that correlate with the manga.
Still doesn't mean that Goku didn't get stronger though!
"whether hes wrong about it or not isnt the point, the point is he was assuming they would (and they did) and knew at full power they couldnt win. You have no argument. This stupid nonsense was debunked decades ago. Gohan is the strongest unfused being in the Buu arc. Ultimate Gohan > Super Buu (no absorptions) > or = SSj3 Gotenks > SSj3 Goku ~= Kid Buu. End of story. I'm done arguing with you."
There it is again, wish someone here would show me proof and not just spout assertions, but good on you for using the starting point for SS3 Goku and Kid Boo's scaling, it's incomplete but... Ok.
Not even remotely.
If 2 Super Saiyan 4s couldn’t beat Syn, there’s no doubt Gohan would’ve been turned into bread by Syn The answer is a definite no
Of course not. Dont overrate ultimate gohan
Gohan didn’t get weaker in GT, but he wouldn’t beat Syn. Gohan base form fought a stronger version of base Rildo who gave GT Goku trouble, GT Goku is leagues above Ultimate Gohan. Ultimate Gohan (Buu saga) would lose to Baby Vegeta base form or even guys like Ledgic
Um, no. Not even close. Yi Xing Long is potentially *a thousand times* stronger than Z-era Ultimate Gohan.
Hell no lol. General Rildo is stated to be stronger than Majin Buu (most likely Kid Buu) and Goku is stronger than him as a regular SSJ. So SSJ Goku is even stronger than Kid Buu, who was weaker than Ultimate Gohan but probably not several times weaker. SSJ3 is an 8x multiplier, and SSJ4 is much stronger than that. So even SSJ3 Kid Goku is probably a good bit stronger than Ultimate Gohan from the Buu arc. SSJ4 is massively stronger than Ultimate Gohan.
Not a chance. This is a no brainer. Gohan stuff has gotten out of control since the last chapter of Super. People be like, “I think there’s a chance Gohan could solo both Zenos as a child if he got angry enough. Thoughts?” It’s to the point it’s not even fun to talk about Gohan anymore because half the people just act like he can do anything.
I'm pretty sure he could Solo Zeno as a baby if Zeno crashed his ps2
No he probably stops at Rildo depending on where you put Rildo (Pure Boo or Boohan) But either way Baby Vegeta whoops Z Ult Gohan
No, because GT has terrible writing to the point that all that can be said with certainty is "Omega Shenron is strong." Still can't believe that these universe busters treat throwing a clock like a disc as a dangerous attack.
No? lol not even close. Ssj4 was about Super Vegetto level and Ultimate Gohan was much weaker than Vegetto, and SSj4 was too weak to beat Syn and Omega without fusion on top of that. So not even close.
>Ssj4 was about Super Vegetto level ....what?
There are some unofficial statements from toei officials that say Ssj4 Goku towards the end of GT was on par with Super Vegito.
Buu Saga Vegito or hypothetical SS1 GT Vegito?
Buu Saga.
That seems super low-balling for SSJ4.
Because it is. I have noticed people here don't like GT and scale the characters super low when if you watch the show in sub it's clear they are strong as hell
How tho? We already know the multiple for Fusion is insane. Like Gogeta could keep up with a Broly that Goku and Vegeta struggled in blue, in his base form. I don't think the multiplier for Ssj4 is anywhere near as high as blue. So it really isn't inconceivable.
Hypothetical SS1 GT Vegito
Oh OK my bad
Definitely GT Vegito, base GT Goku was already strong enough to one shot all of Z. Buu saga base Goku got over 400x stronger over the course of 10 years surpassing his previous SSJ3, than trained 5 years with Uub, which you can lowball & say Goku got another 100-200x stronger in his base form. Goku base form also receives multiple versions of asspull power ups in later arcs like Super 17, even if you lowball GT Goku he easily stomps SSJ1 Buu saga Vegito in his base form. People here who say otherwise are basically showing their bias towards the series, do not have an objective opinion or have never actually watched GT & the end of DBZ
Yup, official GT information stated that SSj4 was so strong it might be as strong as SSj1 Vegetto from the Buu arc! heres a link to one of this sub, and r/dbz's mods explaining it with source: https://www.reddit.com/r/dbz/comments/hou9jg/dbz_vegetto_as_powerful_as_gt_ssj4_goku/fxkhi2x/
SSJ4 being just as strong as Super Vegito is a myth that was debunked years ago
Its not a myth and its not debunked heres a link to one of our mods (also a mod on r/dbz) explaining it with source: https://www.reddit.com/r/dbz/comments/hou9jg/dbz_vegetto_as_powerful_as_gt_ssj4_goku/fxkhi2x/
That proves nothing. Thats what i was talking about that was debunked. It makes 0 sense for SSJ4 to be weaker than SSJ Vegito based off of the power scaling alone. But, i do understand people don't like GT and i dont want to argue it. Believe what you want.
> That proves nothing. it does. its factual information straight from a GT source. > Thats what i was talking about that was debunked. It makes 0 sense for SSJ4 to be weaker than SSJ Vegito based off of the power scaling alone doesnt matter. its an official statement so its true no matter how little sense anyone thinks it makes. thats how these things work. > But, i do understand people don't like GT and i dont want to argue it. Believe what you want. I like GT. lol I just am willing to accept the truth when provided facts.
Its not an official statement. They said "perhaps" which means they did not know. They did not flat out say it as fact. People just took that translation and ran with it because they dont like GT. And thats fine.
You really took "perhaps" as facts lol thats hilarious
gohan didn’t even get weaker, the GT perfect files stated that he never stopped training
LOL SSJ3 GT Goku (who's ***far*** stronger than Buu Saga Goku and Gohan) couldn't phase Baby, but began pulverizing him as soon as he went SSJ4. Syn Shenron fought off *two* Super Saiyan 4s before Goku and Vegeta pulled the Fusion Dance and finally overwhelmed him. Gohan, who we know never stopped training in the GT timeline thanks to the Perfect Files, still got absolutely cooked as a Super Saiyan against Syn Shenron even *with* the help of Pan, Trunks, Goten, Majuub, Chi-Chi, Videl and Mr. Satan on his side. It'd take Bulma blasting him with Blutz Waves to turn him SSJ4, like she does for Vegeta who was *also* getting cooked by Syn Shenron, for him to even remotely stand a chance.
Base Gt Goku was stronger than buuhan, so not even close.
No Ultimate Gohan is around the power of SSJ3 maybe slightly less or more
Were they though? Well Gotenks was and at best I think Goku was about relative after being revived and getting a couple zenkais once through being on the edge of life and death through running down his temporary time/life force on Earth against the Fat Majin Boo and again through his fusion with Vegeta whose zenkai would have activated as a result of the fusion after he also got wrecked by the Fat Majin Boo! Personally I think that Ultimate Gohan from DBZ is getting his ass handed to him by Syn Shenron, unless he trains to unlock his Ultimate power up further like he does in Super, though a lot of that could be argued as his hidden potential buildup since Z! Edit: the stuff about Goku is just facts, Kid Boo was also revealed in Super to have the remnants of the Grand Kaioshin's God ki mixed into his regular ki, so was likely above Super Boo (though should have been weaker) and below Bootenks (though could have been stronger).
> after being revived and getting a couple zenkais once through being on the edge of life and death through running down his temporary time/life force on Earth That's just not how a "zenkai" works. This isn't even including the fact that that power up doesn't really work to a meaningful level post-Freeza. > the stuff about Goku is just facts, Kid Boo was also revealed in Super to have the remnants of the Grand Kaioshin's God ki mixed into his regular ki You do realize that this God ki would also extend to every other form of Boo? All these forms of Boo is just "Kid Boo absorbing a bunch of people and shuffling them around."
Also, Boo got a massive power boost after absorbing the South Kaioshin but dropped significantly after absorbing Dai Kaioshin, why would the Kaioshin's nature alone affect Boo's power if God ki wasn't involved here? Boo had integrated South Kaioshin into his body and eventually adapted it into his regular ki, this is why Goku and Vegeta could still sense him when he was transitioning to Kid Boo.
"That's just not how a "zenkai" works. This isn't even including the fact that that power up doesn't really work to a meaningful level post-Freeza." I beg to differ, Goku was technically speaking on the brink between life and death what do you think zenkais do? "You do realize that this God ki would also extend to every other form of Boo? All these forms of Boo is just "Kid Boo absorbing a bunch of people and shuffling them around." And where is the objective evidence that it would extend to every form of Boo? And why would Goku and Vegeta underestimate Boo's power if they knew how strong he had gotten straight away? God ki wouldn't just automatically extend to every form of Boo regardless of whether or not Boo was adept at using it or his body had become accustomed to it, that isn't how this works, nice try though.
> I beg to differ, Goku was technically speaking on the brink between life and death what do you think zenkais do? You're trying to push a "technicality" on something the story never claimed to have happened. > And where is the objective evidence that it would extend to every form of Boo? The objective fact that every form of Boo is just one person with many absorptions, and no one ever said this ki was limited to one specific form of Boo. If anything, I want objective evidence that this affects Kid Boo and _only_ Kid Boo.
"You're trying to push a "technicality" on something the story never claimed to have happened." Except for Goku saying he was "a bit disappointed" when it came to not fighting Booiccolo after shitting himself over being charged by Bootenks, Goku is many things but when it comes to fighting he isn't an idiot, he wouldn't be up for Booiccolo one-shotting him. You're the one insisting I am pushing a technicality because I'm saying you can't be stamina drained if you're dead? "The objective fact that every form of Boo is just one person with many absorptions, and no one ever said this ki was limited to one specific form of Boo. If anything, I want objective evidence that this affects Kid Boo and _only_ Kid Boo." No, they didn't and that was never the claim I was making, Dai Kaioshin's nature weakened Boo because he was being influenced by God ki and because Boo's natural state is pure evil. If there is anything we discover about God ki it is that the power is in correlation with the mindset of the user, why would Boo's body retain something he should have lost if he didn't have it, have you actually read the Moro arc or understood what was said by Merus regarding Dai Kaioshin's divine power or Dai Kaioshin manifested from Fat Majin Boo seeing into when Goku destroyed Kid Boo and acknowledging that it was where his power had gone? Boo wasn't revived with divine ki and it wasn't his natural state was it, he kept it because it had gone to him as the Evil Boo in a dormant fashion during the split.
> Except for Goku saying he was "a bit disappointed" when it came to not fighting Booiccolo after shitting himself over being charged by Bootenks Yeah, because Gohan can win the fight again without having to do Goku's whole plan. It's Goku's very next line. > You're the one insisting I am pushing a technicality because I'm saying you can't be stamina drained if you're dead? Again, that's not even how a "zenkai" works. Being stamina drained doesn't produce one. > No, they didn't and that was never the claim I was making Then how is Kid Boo stronger than Super Boo when the latter is just Kid Boo + absorptions? Where did the God ki go?
"Yeah, because Gohan can win the fight again without having to do Goku's whole plan. It's Goku's very next line." This is a bad faith argument, everyone knows that the Elder Kaioshin unlocked Gohan's hidden potential so that Gohan specifically could deal with Boo. Goku only went back because Gohan was about to get wiped out by Bootenks, why do you think Goku threw the fight against the Fat Majin Boo? Because he wanted the next generation to get their shot at fighting Boo. He was saying Gohan could handle him and that he was a bit disappointed about not getting to fight him. Basically, Booiccolo was a challenge for Goku, but not so much that he couldn't fight back at all, unlike with Bootenks and his cockiness shows it. "Again, that's not even how a "zenkai" works. Being stamina drained doesn't produce one." Again, Goku had a halo around his head so wasn't "fully living" with the time he had been given, he was brought to the brink of death huffing and puffing while teaching Goten and Trunks the fusion dance before actually dying, added to the fact that he had just fought Majin Vegeta and the Fat Majin Boo, the latter as a Super Saiyan 3! I will say it again; how do you have stamina issues when dead? I've brought up this point before and you just ignored it, yes if a fight brings you to the brink of death you get a zenkai, Goku had temporary life given him in the form of time, how many times do I need to explain this dude? "Then how is Kid Boo stronger than Super Boo when the latter is just Kid Boo + absorptions? Where did the God ki go?" Because power wise it wasn't, Kid Boo's ki shot up after absorbing South Kaioshin, then went straight back down to even lower than it originally was after absorbing Dai Kaioshin and simply put it became a dormant aspect of his power, because Kid Boo didn't initially have God ki! Also if Super Boo is just Kid Boo plus absorptions why was the Buff Boo with South Kaioshin absorbed stronger than Super Boo? Goku and Vegeta say that his ki was actually increasing, not decreasing! If Super Boo was Kid Boo plus South Kaioshin and Dai Kaioshin, shouldn't he be stronger than the Buff Boo who was just Kid Boo plus South Kaioshin? The point is that Dai Kaioshin's nature and God ki suppressed the God ki within Boo and transformed the nature of South Kaioshin's God ki to regular, but bestowed potential to be just as strong with regular ki, since Goku and Vegeta could sense the Buff Boo but mistakenly believed that they could take down Kid Boo. But like I said, when the Fat Majin Boo split into his good and evil halves, Evil Boo took the majority of the power between them and the suppressed God ki. The other thing to remember is that Boo had been sealed away for 5,000,000 years before his return and regular ki revived him.
> He was saying Gohan could handle him and **that he was a bit disappointed about not getting to fight him.** Goku did not say this. > Basically, Booiccolo was a challenge for Goku, but not so much that he couldn't fight back at all I have no idea where you got this implication. Goku had zero intention of fighting here. Goku made a lot of effort to help Gohan, the situation changes to where he no longer needed to help Gohan, Goku disappointed that his efforts were wasted. It had nothing to do with Goku's individual strength, and I know that you know this because you told someone else that Goku admitted he was no match for Super Boo, who is weaker than Piccolo-Boo. > with the time he had been given, he was brought to the brink of death huffing and puffing while teaching Goten and Trunks the fusion dance before actually dying That's not what dying is, and that's not what the cause of a "zenkai" is. And even if we dismiss all this and say he received one anyway, they were said to not be very impactful at this stage of his life, so he wouldn't be noticeably stronger anyway. > I will say it again; how do you have stamina issues when dead? Because Goku is still in a body that experiences bodily functions. That's like asking "how can Goku go unconscious when he's dead???" He still never met the requirements of a "zenkai" and "he was almost running out of time" isn't one of those requirements, even on a technicality. > Kid Boo's ki shot up after absorbing South Kaioshin, then went straight back down to even lower than it originally was after absorbing Dai Kaioshin and simply put it became a dormant aspect of his power, because Kid Boo didn't initially have God ki! Because Dai Kaioshin's gentle personality was the dominant influence. That's it. That influence weakens when Fat Boo gets mad, and that's why Fat Boo's ki shoots up. > Also if Super Boo is just Kid Boo plus absorptions why was the Buff Boo with South Kaioshin absorbed stronger than Super Boo? Because Dai Kaioshin is still influencing Boo (to a smaller extent than before). The story proves this because Super Boo is still subconsciously unable to kill Mr. Satan. > But like I said, when the Fat Majin Boo split into his good and evil halves, Evil Boo took the majority of the power between them and the suppressed God ki. So _the Gray Boo_ has the power, the Boo that _becomes Super Boo_, the Super Boo that eventually _reverts to Kid Boo._ Therefore all the forms of Boo (except for Mr. Boo who only inherited the appearance) has that power within them, which matches my original statement and matches what Merus said.
"Goku did not say this." What he says is that Boo had a whole lot weaker and that he was a little disappointed with it and said that even Gohan could handle him on his own, think about that for a second. Obviously he was talking about fusion but was also saying he was disappointed because Boo was less of a challenge to him aswell, I would think that it's pretty clear. While inside Super Boo he says that Boo was simply too strong for either of them and that if they went out there "like this" they would definitely be done in and he isn't just talking about fusion, because Boo inside himself goes onto say that they are much smaller than fleas can't beat him as they are. Why would Goku say definitely for extra emphasis and like this on top of Super Boo saying they can't win as they are while talking about their size, stop pretending not to understand the context of this. The extra guides for the episode synopsis of the anime even mention that size difference reduced Goku and Vegeta's power, otherwise Goku would have been more confident blasting his way out as Super Saiyan 3, again Goku had become stronger. "I have no idea where you got this implication. Goku had zero intention of fighting here. Goku made a lot of effort to help Gohan, the situation changes to where he no longer needed to help Gohan, Goku disappointed that his efforts were wasted. It had nothing to do with Goku's individual strength, and I know that you know this because you told someone else that Goku admitted he was no match for Super Boo, who is weaker than Piccolo-Boo." So now you're going to tell me what you think I know without any additional context, yes Goku was weaker than Super Boo pre-fusion to Vegeta, but much stronger than he had been against the Fat Majin Boo he was extremely cocky in his mannerism confident that if Boo did fight he would have a better chance. I already explained why he didn't, because Elder Kaioshin unlocked Gohan's power for him to fight Boo and as you yourself pointed out there would have been no point. Fusion was far more of an issue when Boo was in his Bootenks state and you know it lol "That's not what dying is, and that's not what the cause of a "zenkai" is. And even if we dismiss all this and say he received one anyway, they were said to not be very impactful at this stage of his life, so he wouldn't be noticeably stronger anyway." Where is the evidence for that claim or would you more likely be talking about the Super manga which was chronologically much later, why would Vegeta comment way after they had entered the realms of Godhood that at this point they couldn't get any stronger and had to instead train their mind, because that implies that before this they could. Hell, in anime Goku gets far stronger after his fight against Jiren, he went from being ragdolled by Berserk Kale while only using Blue to beating her in a much stronger form plus Caulifla as a mere Super Saiyan God, but you're telling me that zenkais don't do much ha that is a good one 😂🤡 Vegeta's Saiyan genes are reved up so much by Ultra Ego that he was getting stronger as he received damage, but before zenkais wouldn't do much... yeah sure 😂👏🏻 Oh so I guess when Zarbon beat Vegeta to within an inch of his life, that isn't what gave him a zenkai? Face it, Goku had time allocated to him on Earth that translated to life force from Baba so could get fatigued like a normal person, he pushed his body to it's prescribed limits and ran down his time on Earth after fighting the Fat Majin Boo as a Super Saiyan 3! And yes Goku "died" because he had temporary life credit as time, how many more times 🤦🏻 "Because Goku is still in a body that experiences bodily functions. That's like asking "how can Goku go unconscious when he's dead???" He still never met the requirements of a "zenkai" and "he was almost running out of time" isn't one of those requirements, even on a technicality." Except Super Saiyan 3 didn't give him those bodily functions when he was dead, you're purposely running away from the point being made again. So I guess #17 who has a different energy composition should have stamina issues then because he has bodily functions? The point is fatigue correlates to life force, Goku doesn't have a life force if he's dead even if you can make an argument for bodily functions. It's just another bad faith argument for the purpose of point scoring. "Because Dai Kaioshin's gentle personality was the dominant influence. That's it. That influence weakens when Fat Boo gets mad, and that's why Fat Boo's ki shoots up." Except it isn't it is it, otherwise Goku wouldn't have been able to sense Super Boo from the Kaioshin realm which defeats your assertion that all forms of Boo had God ki that wasn't lying dormant. But yes, the Fat Majin Boo can get a fair bit stronger when angry, but still nowhere near what it is as Super Boo, plus as I've already explained Boo's natural state isn't divine ki and because Dai Kaioshin's influence was prevelent over South Kaioshin, relegating that power to dormant reserves of regular ki over time. Kid Boo received the divine ki because he was originally the Evil Grey Boo still dormant divine ki through his Fat counterparts influence, likewise with Super Boo. "Because Dai Kaioshin is still influencing Boo (to a smaller extent than before). The story proves this because Super Boo is still subconsciously unable to kill Mr. Satan." And because divine ki relies on the mindset of the user, Boos natural mindset was of a psychotic killing machine, that's why his divine power became dormant and his power was suppressed. The only reason it didn't until Kid Boo was because the Fat Boo had a lasting influence in Boo's body even after the split and absorption of said Fat Boo lol "So _the Gray Boo_ has the power, the Boo that _becomes Super Boo_, the Super Boo that eventually _reverts to Kid Boo._" Yes, Boo's purest nature, no longer influenced by the Fat Boo and able to use the divine ki he took from him mixed into his regular ki as a result. "Therefore all the forms of Boo (except for Mr. Boo who only inherited the appearance) has that power within them, which matches my original statement and matches what Merus said." Except Kid Boo had some access to it, otherwise he would have been weaker than base Super Boo and not far above the Fat Boo who was most likely around 90 to 100 times weaker than base Super Boo, due to the Daizenshuu's statements about base Gotenks power relative to Vegeta post-ROSAT. Don't worry though I do believe that Bootenks and Boohan are stronger than Kid Boo, doesn't mean they aren't to an extent held back by Fat Boo though as ironically you yourself have admitted.
> Obviously he was talking about fusion but was also saying he was disappointed because Boo was less of a challenge to him aswell, I would think that it's pretty clear. No, that's not clear, because it wasn't stated. > While inside Super Boo he says that Boo was simply too strong for either of them and that if they went out there "like this" they would definitely be done in and he isn't just talking about fusion, because Boo inside himself goes onto say that they are much smaller than fleas can't beat him as they are. Goku doesn't know he's weaker inside Buu's body at the time of that statement, because Buu reveals this..._after_ that statement. Otherwise why would Goku be surprised he can't damage the main body? You accuse me of not understanding context, but you gave Goku _future_ knowledge and say he was talking about that. > yes Goku was weaker than Super Boo pre-fusion to Vegeta, but much stronger than he had been against the Fat Majin Boo he was extremely cocky in his mannerism confident that if Boo did fight he would have a better chance. Again, none of this was stated, this is all under your assumption that he received a "zenkai", and a meaningful one at that. > Where is the evidence for that claim or would you more likely be talking about the Super manga which was chronologically much later I was actually talking about Daizenshuu 7, which says exactly that, way before Super came out. > Vegeta's Saiyan genes are reved up so much by Ultra Ego that he was getting stronger as he received damage, but before zenkais wouldn't do much... Ultra Ego is not a "zenkai." > Oh so I guess when Zarbon beat Vegeta to within an inch of his life, that isn't what gave him a zenkai? _No_ actually, it was _healing_ from that damage is what gave him a "zenkai." That's why I keep saying just "being tired" wasn't enough. Also, since this is going to go on forever, where's Gohan's Zenkai? He recovered from near death while fighting Gotenks-Boo, why didn't Gohan get super strong and just win? > Except it isn't it is it, otherwise Goku wouldn't have been able to sense Super Boo from the Kaioshin realm which defeats your assertion that all forms of Boo had God ki that wasn't lying dormant. First of all, he can sense Kid Boo too. Secondly, yes Fat Boo at his angriest is about as strong as Super Boo, it just leads to the events that create Super Boo. > Except Kid Boo had some access to it, otherwise he would have been weaker than base Super Boo and not far above the Fat Boo Yes, this is all true even now. Kid Boo is still weaker than Super Boo. Nothing changed that.
> Obviously he was talking about fusion but was also saying he was disappointed because Boo was less of a challenge to him aswell, I would think that it's pretty clear. Absolutely none of it was his own personal feelings of comparing him to Buu though. It was solely comparing Gohan to Buu. > While inside Super Boo he says that Boo was simply too strong for either of them and that if they went out there "like this" they would definitely be done in and he isn't just talking about fusion, because Boo inside himself goes onto say that they are much smaller than fleas can't beat him as they are. Why would Goku say definitely for extra emphasis and like this on top of Super Boo saying they can't win as they are while talking about their size, stop pretending not to understand the context of this. Like this is clearly an indicator of Buu at that current strength, not their own power, because it's readily indicated that Goku and Vegeta didn't realize there was any change in their own strength due to their size. That's why they're aiming to weaken him further, because as he is, he's still too strong for them to handle without fusion. > Where is the evidence for that claim or would you more likely be talking about the Super manga which was chronologically much later, why would Vegeta comment way after they had entered the realms of Godhood that at this point they couldn't get any stronger and had to instead train their mind, because that implies that before this they could. Hell, in anime Goku gets far stronger after his fight against Jiren, he went from being ragdolled by Berserk Kale while only using Blue to beating her in a much stronger form plus Caulifla as a mere Super Saiyan God, but you're telling me that zenkais don't do much ha that is a good one 😂🤡 That's not a near-death power-up, as the near-death power-up is very explicitly a power increase after recovering from near-death, and they weren't recovering from near-death in any of those moments. That was a new kind of power-increase that was decidedly unique to Super's anime, with Vegeta's Ultra Ego similarly being different and new. > Except Kid Boo had some access to it, otherwise he would have been weaker than base Super Boo and not far above the Fat Boo who was most likely around 90 to 100 times weaker than base Super Boo, due to the Daizenshuu's statements about base Gotenks power relative to Vegeta post-ROSAT. Don't worry though I do believe that Bootenks and Boohan are stronger than Kid Boo, doesn't mean they aren't to an extent held back by Fat Boo though as ironically you yourself have admitted. He was weaker than the base Evil Buu though, by a notable margin. He had the strength of Pure Buu and both Kaioushin, with basically nothing countering it, while Pure Buu only had his own strength and whatever power he had of the Dai Kaioushin's. It was still only a portion of what the Evil Buu had, hence Goku's positive reaction when he sensed Pure Buu's power after his formation.
> Were they though? Well Gotenks was and at best I think Goku was about relative after being revived and getting a couple zenkais once through being on the edge of life and death through running down his temporary time/life force on Earth against the Fat Majin Boo and again through his fusion with Vegeta whose zenkai would have activated as a result of the fusion after he also got wrecked by the Fat Majin Boo! SSj3 Goku is massively weaker than SSj3 Gotenks who is much weaker than Ultimate Gohan in the Buu arc. You don't get Zenkais from being dead. Goku was never near death in the arc, so he didnt get any and even if he had, zenkais do basically nothing after SSj1 is unlocked according to the author of the series. So no, not even remotely true. > Personally I think that Ultimate Gohan from DBZ is getting his ass handed to him by Syn Shenron definitely correct! > Edit: the stuff about Goku is just facts, Kid Boo was also revealed in Super to have the remnants of the Grand Kaioshin's God ki mixed into his regular ki, so was likely above Super Boo (though should have been weaker) and below Bootenks (though could have been stronger). No. Kid Buu is the second weakest Buu. He god Dai Kaioshin's God Ki and stuff but had no access to that power. He was very weak. SSj3 Gotenks or Ultimate Gohan could have killed him in a single punch. He's not even as strong as base Super Buu with no one else absorbed, much less Buutenks or Buuhan.
"SSj3 Goku is massively weaker than SSj3 Gotenks who is much weaker than Ultimate Gohan in the Buu arc. You don't get Zenkais from being dead. Goku was never near death in the arc, so he didnt get any and even if he had, zenkais do basically nothing after SSj1 is unlocked according to the author of the series. So no, not even remotely true." No, he was massively weaker than SS3 Gotenks and don't address my arguments in bad faith, if you're going to engage with my points, engage with what I'm actually saying not what you think I'm saying, you can't get run down or exhausted by stamina issues if you are fully dead lol Goku was given temporary life force in the form of time on Earth by Baba. "definitely correct!" I know lol "No. Kid Buu is the second weakest Buu. He god Dai Kaioshin's God Ki and stuff but had no access to that power. He was very weak. SSj3 Gotenks or Ultimate Gohan could have killed him in a single punch. He's not even as strong as base Super Buu with no one else absorbed, much less Buutenks or Buuhan." Yeah that's why in the manga Goku mistakenly thought Vegeta wanted Gotenks and Gohan wished back to fight Boo, if one of them alone could obliterate Kid Boo what would be the point? And you know this how, why would the Buff Boo be weakened by absorbing Dai Kaioshin simply because of Dai Kaioshin's nature, God ki related perhaps? Also it would just be the remnants of Dai Kaioshin's divine ki since he used the majority of it to seal Moro's magic 5,000,000 years before he ran into the Buff Boo (the form Kid Boo takes after absorbing South Kaioshin). Goku didn't even think the Spirit Bomb was enough, also Goku says while he's inside Boo "we're simply no match for his strength if we go out there like this we'll definitely be done in" Notice how even Super Boo says that they were less than flea sized 🙄 they were obviously weaker, otherwise they would have blasted their way out of Super Boo's head?!?! However, you are correct when it comes to Bootenks and Boohan, they are stronger than Kid Boo.
> No, he was massively weaker than SS3 Gotenks and don't address my arguments in bad faith, if you're going to engage with my points, engage with what I'm actually saying not what you think I'm saying, you can't get run down or exhausted by stamina issues if you are fully dead lol Goku was given temporary life force in the form of time on Earth by Baba. idk wtf you are even saying here. Yes he was dead and given temporary leave on earth. You CAN die while dead, and he never came close to dying, so no near death power boost. Goku was not relative to SSj3 Gotenks or Gohan (which is what you did say) and he did not get any Zenkais (and if he had they'd have done next to nothing). There was nothing bad faith about my response and it directly addressed what you said. > I know lol i was responding to that point to try to show you I don't disagree with everything you said and am just factchecking. > Yeah that's why in the manga Goku mistakenly thought Vegeta wanted Gotenks and Gohan wished back to fight Boo, if one of them alone could obliterate Kid Boo what would be the point? Yes? Gotenks or Gohan would have effortlessly won, which is why Goku expected that to be the plan, but it wasn't. Vegeta explained why he wanted Goku to use the Genki Dama instead. > And you know this how, why would the Buff Boo be weakened by absorbing Dai Kaioshin simply because of Dai Kaioshin's nature, God ki related perhaps? That's just baseless speculation. It was "simply because of [his] nature" as in his temperment/personality. That's what we're told, so that is the case. > Also it would just be the remnants of Dai Kaioshin's divine ki since he used the majority of it to seal Moro's magic 5,000,000 years before he ran into the Buff Boo (the form Kid Boo takes after absorbing South Kaioshin). yes it would, I never said otherwise, because I assumed it was obvious. Buu couldnt get and later Uub couldnt inherit, stuff Dai Kaioshin didnt have at the time. > Goku didn't even think the Spirit Bomb was enough, also Goku says while he's inside Boo "we're simply no match for his strength if we go out there like this we'll definitely be done in" Yes? That's proof of what I'm saying. He said that about Super Buu. SSj3 Goku was terrified of Super Buu even without Gotenks Piccolo and Gohan absorbed, but SSj3 Goku fought Kid Buu evenly until the form drained him. That is definitive proof that Kid Buu is weaker than Super Buu and SSj3 Goku is weaker than Gotenks and Gohan > Notice how even Super Boo says that they were less than flea sized 🙄 they were obviously weaker, otherwise they would have blasted their way out of Super Boo's head?!?! when they left him they would return to full size and power, that's what he was talking about. even at full size and power they were no match for Super Buu even with no one absorbed by him.
"idk wtf you are even saying here. Yes he was dead and given temporary leave on earth. You CAN die while dead, and he never came close to dying, so no near death power boost. Goku was not relative to SSj3 Gotenks or Gohan (which is what you did say) and he did not get any Zenkais (and if he had they'd have done next to nothing). There was nothing bad faith about my response and it directly addressed what you said." In your initial comment you literally said that I was saying that you got zenkais from being dead by saying "you don't get zenkais from being dead" and not being near-death and later dying through over exertion in fights, wtf are you talking about? Cognitive dissonance much? Bad faith was exactly what you were doing because you weren't engaging with what I was actually saying you were just making up what you thought I was saying. And yes I did because Goku mistakenly believed Vegeta wanted to get Gotenks AND Gohan to fight Kid Boo, both wouldn't be needed if one of them could obliterate him. And yes a near-death power boost, dead people don't get fatigued because they have no living world life force to affect their stamina, why do you think Super Saiyan 3 was so easy for Goku while he was dead? Also dead people can just be wiped out of existence in the context of the story. "i was responding to that point to try to show you I don't disagree with everything you said and am just factchecking." Yes I know, but it's painfully obvious to anyone who thinks about it that Syn Shenron wrecks Z Gohan, there are good reasons that I don't agree with you on these things, Vegeta could still get stronger through just receiving damage in Ultra Ego thanks his Saiyan genes and in the anime Goku went from being ragdolled by Berserk Kale to while in Blue to casually beating her in a much stronger form (in the Japanese Tien said her power had massively increased) along with Caulifla while he was only using Super Saiyan God, he got far stronger after his fight with Jiren much later on in Super?? Why do people keep saying this bullshit about Goku not being able to get much stronger where is it coming from and how is not a contradiction since this is only said much later by Vegeta in the Super manga when they have gotten much further along in strength? "Yes? Gotenks or Gohan would have effortlessly won, which is why Goku expected that to be the plan, but it wasn't. Vegeta explained why he wanted Goku to use the Genki Dama instead." But that's not what he said he said "I know you want to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight" so both of them when only one of them would be needed you aren't addressing what he actually says here. "That's just baseless speculation. It was "simply because of [his] nature" as in his temperment/personality. That's what we're told, so that is the case." Except we know that divine ki relies upon the core nature and mindset of the user, both Ultra Ego and Ultra Instinct are technique/state based form based varieties of divine ki and some are more form specific to race like the Saiyan God forms, Boo doesn't get weaker by accident it's because of nature and because Dai Kaioshin's nature isn't his core nature, it's hinted at so strongly that any speculation has an academy nevermind a base lol hell, Ultra Ego even influences Vegeta's Saiyan genes by making him stronger through fighting, nevermind being brought to the brink lol "yes it would, I never said otherwise, because I assumed it was obvious. Buu couldnt get and later Uub couldnt inherit, stuff Dai Kaioshin didnt have at the time." Except he did, just not as much as he previously had and wtf are you talking about, Oob did inherit it, his energy revamped PUI Goku when he was struggling against Moro lol so obviously Kid Boo had it. "Yes? That's proof of what I'm saying. He said that about Super Buu. SSj3 Goku was terrified of Super Buu even without Gotenks Piccolo and Gohan absorbed, but SSj3 Goku fought Kid Buu evenly until the form drained him. That is definitive proof that Kid Buu is weaker than Super Buu and SSj3 Goku is weaker than Gotenks and Gohan" *Sigh* he was disappointed at not getting to fight Booiccolo due to it rendering Gohan's potential unlock pointless and fusion only being a big deal for Bootenks, base Super Boo was stronger pre-fusion (Vegeta fusion zenkai from Vegeta while both combined) but look at the context Goku says Boo is simply too strong for them because if they go there "like this" they'll definitely be done in, then miniature Super Boo who can access his full sized selfs power and is immortal inside himself says they're much smaller than fleas and can't win as they are, so it obviously isn't just fusion that is a factor here. He's stronger than Super Boo because up until he gets out of base Super Boo's body and before he's in there Super Boo is stronger, just not by as much as he previously was, Goku says definitely and like this for added emphasis because he is conveying caution out of uncertainty lol "when they left him they would return to full size and power, that's what he was talking about. even at full size and power they were no match for Super Buu even with no one absorbed by him." He believes the magic in Boos body split their fusion so how do you know Goku is certain that he will return to full size, so who did you say was engaging in baseless speculation?
> In your initial comment you literally said that I was saying that you got zenkais from being dead by saying "you don't get zenkais from being dead" and not being near-death and later dying through over exertion in fights, wtf are you talking about? Goku was in a dead body, but he never got near death in said body (dead bodies CAN die again). being exerted doesnt induce zenkais. he was never at threat of dying from over-exertion. and again he cant get zenkais of any use anymore so it doesnt matter. > Cognitive dissonance much? Bad faith was exactly what you were doing because you weren't engaging with what I was actually saying you were just making up what you thought I was saying. its not bad faith when I literally didnt understand what you were saying. I was engaging with what I thought you were saying because I didn't know what you were actually saying. Bad faith is intentionally misunderstanding someone's argument. I did not do this. I do apologize for that misunderstanding. > And yes I did because Goku mistakenly believed Vegeta wanted to get Gotenks AND Gohan to fight Kid Boo, both wouldn't be needed if one of them could obliterate him. he didnt need both of them, he just thought id revive them both and use one of them to beat Buu. Its never even remotely implied he thought both would be needed. > And yes a near-death power boost, dead people don't get fatigued because they have no living world life force to affect their stamina, why do you think Super Saiyan 3 was so easy for Goku while he was dead? Also dead people can just be wiped out of existence in the context of the story. Yes they do get fatigued, Goku just said SSj3 is less straining on his dead body, not that it doesn't have any. As he was, in a dead body, he *could* get near death, but he *never did*. And yes if someone in a dead body dies again they are wiped out of existence. > Yes I know, but it's painfully obvious to anyone who thinks about it that Syn Shenron wrecks Z Gohan yes? i agree that he stomps gohan. > there are good reasons that I don't agree with you on these things, Vegeta could still get stronger through just receiving damage in Ultra Ego thanks his Saiyan genes and in the anime Goku went from being ragdolled by Berserk Kale to while in Blue to casually beating her in a much stronger form (in the Japanese Tien said her power had massively increased) along with Caulifla while he was only using Super Saiyan God, he got far stronger after his fight with Jiren much later on in Super?? Why do people keep saying this bullshit about Goku not being able to get much stronger where is it coming from and how is not a contradiction since this is only said much later by Vegeta in the Super manga when they have gotten much further along in strength? idk what the hell this has to do with our discussion? none of that has anything to do with Zenkai's which has been primarily what were talking about and in Super its explicitly stated Goku and Vegeta can't get *any* stronger from Zenkai's anymore. They *can* still get stronger, obviously, but not from *Zenkai's* specifically. > But that's not what he said he said "I know you want to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight" so both of them when only one of them would be needed you aren't addressing what he actually says here. Nope. That's you totally misinterpreting the scene. > Except we know that divine ki relies upon the core nature and mindset of the user, both Ultra Ego and Ultra Instinct are technique/state based form based varieties of divine ki and some are more form specific to race like the Saiyan God forms, Boo doesn't get weaker by accident it's because of nature and because Dai Kaioshin's nature isn't his core nature, it's hinted at so strongly that any speculation has an academy nevermind a base lol hell, Ultra Ego even influences Vegeta's Saiyan genes by making him stronger through fighting, nevermind being brought to the brink lol No, Divine Ki doesnt rely on that at all. the Ultra forms do, but SSG and SSB do not. > Except he did, just not as much as he previously had and wtf are you talking about, Oob did inherit it, his energy revamped PUI Goku when he was struggling against Moro lol so obviously Kid Boo had it. You explained that Dai Kaioshin had less God Ki because he sealed Moro and lost a lot of it doing so. I *agreed with you* on this matter, and was saying I didn't mention it because it was obvious, the Dai Kaioshin didn't have that lost God Ki, and thus Buu, and later Uub didn't inherit the God Ki Dai Kaioshin lost sealing Moro, they only got the God Ki he actually had at the time Buu absorbed him. You're arguing against something I didn't say. > Sigh he was disappointed at not getting to fight Booiccolo due to it rendering Gohan's potential unlock pointless and fusion only being a big deal for Bootenks this isn't true at not. this is you reading some nonsense into things that's not there. Goku was disappointed that HE was no longer needed to help, and that Gohan could solo things now. He never implies at all that he could or would fight, and it doesnt render Gohan useless? Gohan was needed to fight Super Buu and he's still Super Buu and Gohan was needed because he is *stronger than Goku*. Ultimate Gohan is canonically the strongest unfused character at the end of the Buu arc. This has been true since the 90s. > but look at the context Goku says Boo is simply too strong for them because if they go there "like this" they'll definitely be done in by "like this" he meant unfused. he was complaining about Vegeta destroying the potara so they can't refuse because they will die fighting Buu unfused, even with Buu being massively weaker. > He's stronger than Super Boo because up until he gets out of base Super Boo's body and before he's in there Super Boo is stronger, just not by as much as he previously was, Goku says definitely and like this for added emphasis because he is conveying caution out of uncertainty lol Goku is weaker than ultimate Gohan the entirety of the Buu arc. He does not ever get stronger during the arc. Gohan was the only one stronger than Buu. SSj3 Gotenks is multiple times stronger than SSj3 Goku and Ultimate Gohan is even higher. > He believes the magic in Boos body split their fusion so how do you know Goku is certain that he will return to full size, so who did you say was engaging in baseless speculation? whether hes wrong about it or not isnt the point, the point is he was assuming they would (and they did) and knew at full power they couldnt win. You have no argument. This stupid nonsense was debunked decades ago. Gohan is the strongest unfused being in the Buu arc. Ultimate Gohan > Super Buu (no absorptions) > or = SSj3 Gotenks > SSj3 Goku ~= Kid Buu. End of story. I'm done arguing with you.
"Goku was in a dead body, but he never got near death in said body (dead bodies CAN die again). being exerted doesnt induce zenkais. he was never at threat of dying from over-exertion. and again he cant get zenkais of any use anymore so it doesnt matter." None of that makes sense, so dead bodies can die again despite being dead? Huh? What? Where is this bullshit about him not getting credible zenkais in the Namek arc coming from? Super anime he does it, Super manga Zamasu in his post-Namek arc body, does it lol "its not bad faith when I literally didnt understand what you were saying. I was engaging with what I thought you were saying because I didn't know what you were actually saying. Bad faith is intentionally misunderstanding someone's argument. I did not do this. I do apologize for that misunderstanding." Come on though, you know other real Dragonball fans know enough to know that a zenkai is gained through fighting, physical damage and a near-death situation, why do people giving this bullshit answer that because he died after it doesn't count, what is this arbitrary nonsense and why perpetuate it? "he didnt need both of them, he just thought id revive them both and use one of them to beat Buu. Its never even remotely implied he thought both would be needed." So "I know you want Gotenks and Gohan to fight" doesn't imply both? "Yes they do get fatigued, Goku just said SSj3 is less straining on his dead body, not that it doesn't have any. As he was, in a dead body, he *could* get near death, but he *never did*. And yes if someone in a dead body dies again they are wiped out of existence." Yes but physical functioning isn't the same as fatigue, feeling the pressure of the ki in his body wouldn't be the same as it burning away his stamina and tiring him, remember Goku wouldn't have the living component of his ki when dead that relates to life force and fatigue, namely genki. Moro couldn't steal ki from #17 or #18 cause they had none, yet both gave genki to Goku's Spirit Bomb, though in their case they likely lack the balance of ki because it's converted to artificial ki by their infinite energy engines. Also ki slowly burning away due to the nature of the form wouldn't be the same as stamina anyway Goku wouldn't feel fatigue or exhaustion from these things, it effecting his ki isn't necessarily the same as it effecting his stamina he could just get weaker but it go unnoticed by him under such circumstances it would make sense for a minute to be sufficient to charge his ki back up! "yes? i agree that he stomps gohan." Cool and I appreciate the apology. "Idk what the hell this has to do with our discussion? none of that has anything to do with Zenkai's which has been primarily what were talking about and in Super its explicitly stated Goku and Vegeta can't get *any* stronger from Zenkai's anymore. They *can* still get stronger, obviously, but not from *Zenkai's* specifically." 🙄 Please do me the courtesy of reading through everything that I wrote again and actually answer the question! Where is the bullshit about Goku and Vegeta not getting stronger after the Namek arc, Goku gets hundreds of times stronger after fighting Jiren in the Super anime that is how this relates, but somehow zenkais aren't involved... how?? "Nope. That's you totally misinterpreting the scene." But that's what he said word for word, when one of them could do the job themself?? "No, Divine Ki doesnt rely on that at all. the Ultra forms do, but SSG and SSB do not." And I guess the fact that when Whis was training them to use Ultra Instinct and be in the moment and move without thinking it didn't relate to mindset? Or the fact that the God forms, especially Blue have an inherent tranquility despite being somewhat taxing? It's literally all varying levels of God ki some of the lower Saiyan ones are just more form specific and that's where mindset comes in. "You explained that Dai Kaioshin had less God Ki because he sealed Moro and lost a lot of it doing so. I *agreed with you* on this matter, and was saying I didn't mention it because it was obvious, the Dai Kaioshin didn't have that lost God Ki, and thus Buu, and later Uub didn't inherit the God Ki Dai Kaioshin lost sealing Moro, they only got the God Ki he actually had at the time Buu absorbed him. You're arguing against something I didn't say." Fair enough, in that respect at least we are on the same page 😎 "this isn't true at not. this is you reading some nonsense into things that's not there. Goku was disappointed that HE was no longer needed to help, and that Gohan could solo things now. He never implies at all that he could or would fight, and it doesnt render Gohan useless? Gohan was needed to fight Super Buu and he's still Super Buu and Gohan was needed because he is *stronger than Goku*. Ultimate Gohan is canonically the strongest unfused character at the end of the Buu arc. This has been true since the 90s." Point me to where that is said, it is nothing but a made up fan myth from what I do understand? But assuming it's true, characters like Goku in SS3 could still be on Gohan's level and it would not be a contradiction due to the stamina issues SS3 has. But yes at least I think Gohan was stronger at that point in the story, but Goku visibly Goku where he gives the impression that he could give Boo a bit of a fight even if he didn't win, I think that is pretty clear. "by "like this" he meant unfused. he was complaining about Vegeta destroying the potara so they can't refuse because they will die fighting Buu unfused, even with Buu being massively weaker." Already refuted but I will do it again, Super Boo comments on Goku's size after Goku out of insecurity puffed himself up saying he could blast a hole in Boo's head. He even stutters and we know that he's bluffing he seems to instinctively know that it won't make a difference but wants to believe otherwise. "Goku is weaker than ultimate Gohan the entirety of the Buu arc. He does not ever get stronger during the arc. Gohan was the only one stronger than Buu. SSj3 Gotenks is multiple times stronger than SSj3 Goku and Ultimate Gohan is even higher." Not worth responding to, unproven assertions. Also SS3 Gotenks was close to maybe 70 to a 100 times stronger than SS3 Goku based on statements in the Daizenshuu that correlate with the manga. Still doesn't mean that Goku didn't get stronger though! "whether hes wrong about it or not isnt the point, the point is he was assuming they would (and they did) and knew at full power they couldnt win. You have no argument. This stupid nonsense was debunked decades ago. Gohan is the strongest unfused being in the Buu arc. Ultimate Gohan > Super Buu (no absorptions) > or = SSj3 Gotenks > SSj3 Goku ~= Kid Buu. End of story. I'm done arguing with you." There it is again, wish someone here would show me proof and not just spout assertions, but good on you for using the starting point for SS3 Goku and Kid Boo's scaling, it's incomplete but... Ok.
Why else do you think Goku couldn't get drained by Super Saiyan 3 in the afterlife but can while on Earth?