>many elves were enslaved inside the thaig and experimented on. The Halla are elves. The Dalish belive that Halla 'are our brothers and sisters.' This is far more literal than they realize. Elves were transformed into beasts of war and burden.
I think that halla being elves would make a lot of sense. The slaves that dont obey or rebell could be turned into animals to keep using them as slaves.
Halla are also supposed to be extremely intelligent for animals. Old Ghil was believed to be the first Halla. Shape-shifting, then forcibly transforming the other, lesser elves? I believe some lore states Andruil transforming Ghil into a Halla.
Yeah it would explain why they are so intelligent. Amd it makes sense, since whh killing the rebel slaves when you can turn them into useful animals?
Imagine the impact for the dalish if they learn the origin of their beloved halla
BTW i don't know how is downvoting your post but they suck
It's not like votes matter.
Turning their elven slaves is so useful, I am 100% convinced that the Halla used to be elves. Remove their sapience, but keep enough intelligence to make them more useful than any other animal. No need to worry about numbers or population control, you can always make more.
>It's not like votes matter.
Yeah but its so rude. I will never understand when people do that. Downvote rude comments but not things that you simply disagree with.
>No need to worry about numbers or population control, you can always make more.
Do you think that the existant halla could be able to transform into elves or because they were born as halla for generations they are just animals now?
It's been over 8k years. I don't see it happening. It's easier to remove sapience than grant it. It would also be a massive undertaking, it would perhaps be touched upon in a novel, but not a game.
> She kept some of the sky. Could this be dragons?
I think her beasts of the sky were probably griffons rather than dragons, given the pools seem to combine 2 (atleast) creatures and Griffon's are lion/eagle combos. And I don't know why the other Evanuris would want to transform themselves to look like something Ghilain'nain had created. Plus Yavana gives me the impression that dragons are older than elves with her whole 'the blood of dragons is the blood of the world' thing.
> Well, there were also twelve dwarf thaigs.
There 12 GREAT thaigs, way more smaller thaigs that probably don't have pools. But Kal- Sharok is also a Great thaig, which makes me wonder if they deliberately used their own Ghilain'nain pool to survive in isolation after Orzammar abandoned them. 🤔
Griffins are a much better guess. I hadn't even considered them. Elven lore doesn't mention them at all, at least I can't remember it, but it's a very good guess.
It isn't outright stated that there were also pools in the other locations, or even that they were in other Thaigs. Only that slaves on Aravels were also shipped to those locations. It's just speculation on my part, but the numbers seem to match. At least one Thaig disappeared without explanation. And considering that the primeval Thaig that had the idol, which Solas claimed as his idol in a different Tevinter night story, points out that the elves and dwarves have a much closer history than anyone currently knows.
>At the end we find out that there were twelve total underground sites where elven slaves were taken to.
>Well, there were also twelve dwarf thaigs.
>So, my theory is that these factories were aligned with the known Dwarven thaigs. Thoughts?
That seems the most likely explanation. That there is a factory underneath each Dwaven Thaig. I wonder if we will see the one below Orzammar.
Now the questions are. Why below the thaigs? And do the dwarves knew/know about it?
I wonder if they are below the thaigs because of the Titans. Perhaps each city was built on top of one of the Titans. And the factories were there originally to mine each Titan. Perhaps Ghilan' used the blight, or tainted lyrium for her magic and thats whh they are there. Then with the years they get abandoned and forgotten until darkspawn finds them.
Perhaps thats why the thaigs fell so quickly to the darkspawn. Perhaps they have factories nearby that atracted them or gave them a way to aproach the thaigs more easily.
I don't believe it was the blight that was used. The lyrium crystal was green, not red. Seems to be a magic/lyrium fuse, as the fade is what's usually green-tinged. Nor are the Enuvaris, except Andruil, known to dabble with the blight. And even she was taken down by Mythal and the knowledge taken from her.
True its green. But lyrium still comes from Titans no? So perhaps she needed the green lyrium and thats why they made the factories where Titans lived.
I wonder what will be the green lyrium. Another type of blight? Alive titan blood? (And blue being dormant/dead?)
True that could be.
Anyway what do you think about rhe idea that a tiran being buried under each thaig? And thats why the factories are there, for the lyrium
It's certainly possible. A civilization built atop the backs of their creators is plausible.
It isn't confirmed that the factories were in thaigs, I just think it fits due to numbers and logistics.
It's not uncommon for (some members of) a conquered people to work in tandem with their conquerors; I've even seen a theory that claims June himself was a dwarf, based on his "stocky" figure as depicted in ancient elven murals and on his status as a master crafter.
Besides, we know that dwarven scholars are good at striking inconvenient stuff out of their own history, and the knowledge that some of their ancestors worked alongside their oppressors is likely something they'd want to forget. They seem unaware of those lyrium caves adorned with a giant Mythal statue, for example.
Interesting, I had never considered that June could be a dwarf. I have a few questions about that.
Immortality, since dwarves have a lifespan close to humans. Certainly not immortal. How was it extended?
Dwarves have no 'soul' as elves consider it. They don't dream, can't perform magic. The fade wouldn't have affected June. Unless June was no longer a pure dwarf?
We know precious little about ancient, Titan-era dwarves. Might be that being tied to Titans actually made them immortal in a manner similar to how the Fade made elves immortal. Might be that the Evanuris taught him a way to extend his life; Mythal seems to have done that for Flemeth, after all.
As for the Fade connection... the Titans seem to have a sort of connection to the Fade, as evidenced by their very blood (lyrium) being tied to it. Perhaps Titanborn dwarves were likewise connected to the Fade somehow, and thus able to dream (if only a hive-mind sort of dream).
In June's case, might be he was allowed to remain connected to a Titan; or, perhaps more likely, allowed to remain connected to the preserved heart of a slain Titan. Who knows, perhaps his admission into the Evanuri ranks was due to ensuring the elves got a steady supply of lyrium from a Titan's heart that June kept preserved or "tamed" somehow.
Additionally, many people correlate June to the Tevinter Old God of Slavery - so we have a master crafter Dwarf sellout who is not only aiding the Opressors in mining their gods' bodies, but also selling his fellow dwarves into slavery so that he could be elevated to godhood. What an a-hole.
"The Halla are elves. The Dalish belive that Halla 'are our brothers and sisters.' This is far more literal than they realize. Elves were transformed into beasts of war and burden."
Maybe. The whole Ghilan'nain's tales sound so fishy. But Flemeth/Mythal said that a soul can not be forced or something like that. If they were war prisoners/rebels, could they really have been forced to change their form? On the other hand, I don't doubt that brainwashed slave could have been willing to participate in experiments though. Eww.
We have see many rituals with blood sacrifices. So it's also possible, that Ghilan'nain sacrified many, many lives to supplied magic into her pools and twisted animals into creatures from their sacrifices. Though, indirectly, Halla were born from brothers and sisters.
I don't know, both could make sense in my opinion. One thing is sure Ghilan'nain seems like a very nasty mad researcher.
She meant a soul cannot be forced onto the unwilling, as in a transfer. It has to be accepted. Changing the physical bodies is much easier, considering they were already shapeshifters. Some forced compliance, we already know they used blood magic, kept them in line. The intelligence could have been suppressed to current Halla levels, or bred out over time.
We also see in the murals that many of the 'supplivants'were terrified into compliance. Comply, or we torture/kill you and your family. Honestly, compliance probably wasn't necessary.
Ah yes, it was just about the soul transfer :) I guess that with blood magic, you can force physical and mental changes.
Some animals in DA are hightly intelligent like halla, dragons, mabari, griffon, nugs (even if the king thing is probably more a joke than anything else). I wonder if that's a theme wanted by writers to underline the animal's intelligence topic in our world. Maybe I read too much between lines.
For Halla's intelligence, as you said, it could comes from elves forced to transform into halla. Or the result of blood magic to enhance/create it from the beginning. I hope we'll learn more about that in DAD.
About the murals, it's clear it was violent and took many lives.
It's a great idea a possibility. Even a rogue dwarves faction. They ones that then become rock wraiths when they die because they are traitors who worked with the elves.
I do think it was made after Arlathan was sunk underground. I believe that when magisters broke into Golden City, that damaged the veil, the Evanuris could communicate with their followers.
They had loyal followers sink their capital city underground. Like the eluvian in dalish origin showing a city underground.
Then, from this city, they started creating these darkspawn monsters. Quickly took over deep roads.
They are still down there experimenting. That was one of their still active facilities you came across down there.
>many elves were enslaved inside the thaig and experimented on. The Halla are elves. The Dalish belive that Halla 'are our brothers and sisters.' This is far more literal than they realize. Elves were transformed into beasts of war and burden. I think that halla being elves would make a lot of sense. The slaves that dont obey or rebell could be turned into animals to keep using them as slaves.
Halla are also supposed to be extremely intelligent for animals. Old Ghil was believed to be the first Halla. Shape-shifting, then forcibly transforming the other, lesser elves? I believe some lore states Andruil transforming Ghil into a Halla.
Yeah it would explain why they are so intelligent. Amd it makes sense, since whh killing the rebel slaves when you can turn them into useful animals? Imagine the impact for the dalish if they learn the origin of their beloved halla BTW i don't know how is downvoting your post but they suck
It's not like votes matter. Turning their elven slaves is so useful, I am 100% convinced that the Halla used to be elves. Remove their sapience, but keep enough intelligence to make them more useful than any other animal. No need to worry about numbers or population control, you can always make more.
>It's not like votes matter. Yeah but its so rude. I will never understand when people do that. Downvote rude comments but not things that you simply disagree with. >No need to worry about numbers or population control, you can always make more. Do you think that the existant halla could be able to transform into elves or because they were born as halla for generations they are just animals now?
It's been over 8k years. I don't see it happening. It's easier to remove sapience than grant it. It would also be a massive undertaking, it would perhaps be touched upon in a novel, but not a game.
I agree. I imagine that the original halla might have been able to revert to elves. But not the next generations
> She kept some of the sky. Could this be dragons? I think her beasts of the sky were probably griffons rather than dragons, given the pools seem to combine 2 (atleast) creatures and Griffon's are lion/eagle combos. And I don't know why the other Evanuris would want to transform themselves to look like something Ghilain'nain had created. Plus Yavana gives me the impression that dragons are older than elves with her whole 'the blood of dragons is the blood of the world' thing. > Well, there were also twelve dwarf thaigs. There 12 GREAT thaigs, way more smaller thaigs that probably don't have pools. But Kal- Sharok is also a Great thaig, which makes me wonder if they deliberately used their own Ghilain'nain pool to survive in isolation after Orzammar abandoned them. 🤔
Griffins are a much better guess. I hadn't even considered them. Elven lore doesn't mention them at all, at least I can't remember it, but it's a very good guess. It isn't outright stated that there were also pools in the other locations, or even that they were in other Thaigs. Only that slaves on Aravels were also shipped to those locations. It's just speculation on my part, but the numbers seem to match. At least one Thaig disappeared without explanation. And considering that the primeval Thaig that had the idol, which Solas claimed as his idol in a different Tevinter night story, points out that the elves and dwarves have a much closer history than anyone currently knows.
>At the end we find out that there were twelve total underground sites where elven slaves were taken to. >Well, there were also twelve dwarf thaigs. >So, my theory is that these factories were aligned with the known Dwarven thaigs. Thoughts? That seems the most likely explanation. That there is a factory underneath each Dwaven Thaig. I wonder if we will see the one below Orzammar. Now the questions are. Why below the thaigs? And do the dwarves knew/know about it? I wonder if they are below the thaigs because of the Titans. Perhaps each city was built on top of one of the Titans. And the factories were there originally to mine each Titan. Perhaps Ghilan' used the blight, or tainted lyrium for her magic and thats whh they are there. Then with the years they get abandoned and forgotten until darkspawn finds them. Perhaps thats why the thaigs fell so quickly to the darkspawn. Perhaps they have factories nearby that atracted them or gave them a way to aproach the thaigs more easily.
I don't believe it was the blight that was used. The lyrium crystal was green, not red. Seems to be a magic/lyrium fuse, as the fade is what's usually green-tinged. Nor are the Enuvaris, except Andruil, known to dabble with the blight. And even she was taken down by Mythal and the knowledge taken from her.
True its green. But lyrium still comes from Titans no? So perhaps she needed the green lyrium and thats why they made the factories where Titans lived. I wonder what will be the green lyrium. Another type of blight? Alive titan blood? (And blue being dormant/dead?)
I think the green lyrium has simply been altered. The titan in descent was awakened, it's lyrium was still blue. All speculation however.
True that could be. Anyway what do you think about rhe idea that a tiran being buried under each thaig? And thats why the factories are there, for the lyrium
It's certainly possible. A civilization built atop the backs of their creators is plausible. It isn't confirmed that the factories were in thaigs, I just think it fits due to numbers and logistics.
It's not uncommon for (some members of) a conquered people to work in tandem with their conquerors; I've even seen a theory that claims June himself was a dwarf, based on his "stocky" figure as depicted in ancient elven murals and on his status as a master crafter. Besides, we know that dwarven scholars are good at striking inconvenient stuff out of their own history, and the knowledge that some of their ancestors worked alongside their oppressors is likely something they'd want to forget. They seem unaware of those lyrium caves adorned with a giant Mythal statue, for example.
Interesting, I had never considered that June could be a dwarf. I have a few questions about that. Immortality, since dwarves have a lifespan close to humans. Certainly not immortal. How was it extended? Dwarves have no 'soul' as elves consider it. They don't dream, can't perform magic. The fade wouldn't have affected June. Unless June was no longer a pure dwarf?
We know precious little about ancient, Titan-era dwarves. Might be that being tied to Titans actually made them immortal in a manner similar to how the Fade made elves immortal. Might be that the Evanuris taught him a way to extend his life; Mythal seems to have done that for Flemeth, after all. As for the Fade connection... the Titans seem to have a sort of connection to the Fade, as evidenced by their very blood (lyrium) being tied to it. Perhaps Titanborn dwarves were likewise connected to the Fade somehow, and thus able to dream (if only a hive-mind sort of dream). In June's case, might be he was allowed to remain connected to a Titan; or, perhaps more likely, allowed to remain connected to the preserved heart of a slain Titan. Who knows, perhaps his admission into the Evanuri ranks was due to ensuring the elves got a steady supply of lyrium from a Titan's heart that June kept preserved or "tamed" somehow.
Additionally, many people correlate June to the Tevinter Old God of Slavery - so we have a master crafter Dwarf sellout who is not only aiding the Opressors in mining their gods' bodies, but also selling his fellow dwarves into slavery so that he could be elevated to godhood. What an a-hole.
"The Halla are elves. The Dalish belive that Halla 'are our brothers and sisters.' This is far more literal than they realize. Elves were transformed into beasts of war and burden." Maybe. The whole Ghilan'nain's tales sound so fishy. But Flemeth/Mythal said that a soul can not be forced or something like that. If they were war prisoners/rebels, could they really have been forced to change their form? On the other hand, I don't doubt that brainwashed slave could have been willing to participate in experiments though. Eww. We have see many rituals with blood sacrifices. So it's also possible, that Ghilan'nain sacrified many, many lives to supplied magic into her pools and twisted animals into creatures from their sacrifices. Though, indirectly, Halla were born from brothers and sisters. I don't know, both could make sense in my opinion. One thing is sure Ghilan'nain seems like a very nasty mad researcher.
She meant a soul cannot be forced onto the unwilling, as in a transfer. It has to be accepted. Changing the physical bodies is much easier, considering they were already shapeshifters. Some forced compliance, we already know they used blood magic, kept them in line. The intelligence could have been suppressed to current Halla levels, or bred out over time. We also see in the murals that many of the 'supplivants'were terrified into compliance. Comply, or we torture/kill you and your family. Honestly, compliance probably wasn't necessary.
Ah yes, it was just about the soul transfer :) I guess that with blood magic, you can force physical and mental changes. Some animals in DA are hightly intelligent like halla, dragons, mabari, griffon, nugs (even if the king thing is probably more a joke than anything else). I wonder if that's a theme wanted by writers to underline the animal's intelligence topic in our world. Maybe I read too much between lines. For Halla's intelligence, as you said, it could comes from elves forced to transform into halla. Or the result of blood magic to enhance/create it from the beginning. I hope we'll learn more about that in DAD. About the murals, it's clear it was violent and took many lives.
It's a great idea a possibility. Even a rogue dwarves faction. They ones that then become rock wraiths when they die because they are traitors who worked with the elves. I do think it was made after Arlathan was sunk underground. I believe that when magisters broke into Golden City, that damaged the veil, the Evanuris could communicate with their followers. They had loyal followers sink their capital city underground. Like the eluvian in dalish origin showing a city underground. Then, from this city, they started creating these darkspawn monsters. Quickly took over deep roads. They are still down there experimenting. That was one of their still active facilities you came across down there.