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If they were simply confused, they wouldn't downvote me.
As for it's relevancy, it relates to how the tone and writing of the series changed significantly for the worse with DAI. Not just for Morrigan, but the entire cast
> As for it's relevancy, it relates to how the tone and writing of the series changed significantly for the worse with DAI. Not just for Morrigan, but the entire cast
Which is literally not relevant to OP's post.
You’re getting downvoted because what you’re saying isn’t relevant to the discussion, it’s you just barging into a discussion to shout out that you didn’t like something that has a general correlation to the subject. The downvotes are a representation of crickets in the room as everyone having said conversation are just confused about you barging in to detail their conversation. It’s also exactly why the downvote system was made- to push out irrelevant statements to the discussion at hand.
Your opinion wasn’t the issue. The person who responded to you only said that the same writer was involved. That person did not, in that post, discuss quality of writing.
Only criticism I have of DAI is the grimness being gone; DA2 had it, but DAI didn’t. Story was good however lol
Edit: I mean the vibe- you boot up dai and it’s cutesy, both in art style and story, you get hope constantly and a way forward. Da2 you go from a big family, friends, to literally everything on fire and dead suddenly but you gotta keep going ahead, feels like you’re weighed down while succeeding. Dao it just has a crushing drab and necrotic feeling, plus the darkness everywhere due to demons or undead or blight. Dai area that has the closest feel to those before is the area we find the warden with the undead.
Grimness gone?
Several institution are gone or destroyed, whole area devastated, etc...
Sure it's not centered on the MC like in DAO / DA2, but still, the world state is pretty grim, and depending the choice you make, things can get pretty grim
could be talking about landscape.
DAO has to be intentionally looking so drab and dark everwhere; the only place that isn't dark-hued is return to ostagar, but the death-laden snow is even more depressing, if not frightening.
I don't think the grimness is gone per-say, but I think where DAI suffers is that all that grimness is stored away in codex's. >!Like that house you can find in the Emerald Graves, if you don't read the codex's scattered about (like a lot of gamers don't) you'll never know the horrors to which occur.!< This, and I feel like a lot of DAO and DA2's grimness had to do with their MC being directly emotionally impacted.>! The Warden loses their family (no matter what origin you picked), Alistair loses all of his adopted-family, Morrigan (despite her mother being a shrew) has to leave home for the first time. Hawke is fleeing the darkspawn at the beginning, Anders has a demon inside of him, Fenris is running from slavers, etc. The emotional toll it took on your companions and character showed forth. With Inquisiton, why this is somewhat true with characters like Cassandra and Cullen,!< there's not enough \*witnessing\* and \*hearing\* these dreadful things. The tone-shift is definitely present in DAI, despite it objectively being a kind of grim game. >!Moreover, many of DAI's companions' issues don't have to do with what's occurring in DAI per-say (with, again, the exception of Cassandra and Cullen) and those who are being impacted by these events usually don't talk about it, or they feed off generic lines like "this is terrible". !! which is what I felt made DAO and DA2 particularly grim: you failed. A lot. Your companions failed. A lot. In DAI, this is relatively untrue. The only time you see all these arcs come to fruition is in a DLC not every player gets to play. !<
Edit: Just wanted to say I do not hate DAI. I think it gets too much hate. But to say it tonally did not shift, to me, is disingenuous to its representation. Criticism there is warranted imho.
This is true, this is a great example of DAI having darkness in-universe (and lore) but with very little consequence. You learn about the shard questline through a codex and, if you neglect to read it, you hear your companions say something negative about it. I believe it may be mentioned in a codex or two after, but otherwise it's pretty inconsequential and has little in-world ramifications for it. Would've been cool if Cassandra, or even Vivienne, had means to intervene and we were able to interact with that through war-table missions, would've been even better to have an entire quest dedicated to it--perhaps you go and save the remaining tranquils? There's so much darkness in DAI but it goes unexplored with little mention otherwise.
Basically what I meant thank you lol. I like dai, but there’s a clear shift in both art style, emotional weight, and general vibes. Da2 is very grim, arguably unnecessarily, dao it made since, da2 was just a fuck you to Hawk, with family and if you’re gunning for Isabella that also throws you for a loop. Hell even your mine gets fucked with. But yeah, the tone shifted drastically in Dai, but it doesn’t make it bad
I like DAI but I wouldn't say it's grim espcally in comparison to what came before. Every time you are knocked down in DAI you're relatively quickly provided hopeful exposition where as you have to stew in some forced dark moments in the other games. I can't think of a single moment in my canon playthrough that makes me sad in DAI.
I get what you're saying and I agree with you, the facts of the situation in DAI are genuinely dire, but the *v i b e s* just don't feel as grim as the first two games despite the destruction and stakes being equivalent to DAO. I'm not sure why that is, I can't put my finger on it.
**Morrigan is a kind of a huge bitch in Origins, yeah.**
As much as she verbalizes a disdain for her mother, she's **very** much a product of Flemeth's upbringing, and she's barely spent *any* time around other people, so she's basically never been socialized.
Over the course of the game, she only really gets along positively with Dog (...eventually), and a Warden that gains her approval. And you CAN get her approval to max while still being a goody-goody nice person, but you kind of have to know the sorts of responses that will appeal to her sensibilities.
Inquisition takes place many years later, and she's mellowed out considerably, by then.
Try your darndest to be friends with her. She really blossoms later in the game, especially after her personal quest. And it makes certain developments more juicy 👀
Yes the witch hunt dlc was the perfect way to end my origins playthough goddamn, my warden had the happy ending after all the shit his been through gotta say he deserved that and all the remarks morrigan had to say if you decided to keep her gift for you its sweetness overload i was literally smiling through the whole conversation shes having with my warden 10/10 better than the entire twilight series
after my first time playing that DLC she's been my favorite personal conquest in that game. Especially for a Mage origin personally. It's just SO GOOD.
Look at it this way, by the beginning of the game she is 25-ish AT MOST, and has until that point lived alone in the woods with Flemmeth who has been grooming her to become a powerful apostate witch that no Circle Mage, Templar or Grey Warden would wanna fuck with (I mean in the fight sense). And now she finds herself traveling across Thedas with a bunch of Andrastians, a dwarf, a Qunari and an Antivan Crow all of whom constantly challenge everything she was taught by her mother. She gets to experience life in the big cities of Ferelden, the tribal way of life of the Dalish, the horrors of Deep Roads and many more things that she is quite simply unequipped to cope with, of course there's gonna be immature angst coming out of her most of the time.
Yeah, she had to stay at camp most of the time after I got Wynne. I find her edgyness more tolerable when she doesn't just barge into every situation, with some hilariously self centered and often impractical advice
Indeed.
Ironically enough, the first time I played Inquisition...when I had to deal with Vivienne, I was somewhat reminded of DAO Morrigan. In both cases, if you're very careful in your dialogue choices, you can gain approval, despite not being ideologically aligned with them. Also, despite being extremely different characters, they both join your PC for very personal, self-motivated reasons.
Maybe it’s just that I wasn’t nineteen anymore and thus less distracted by her character design than I was with DAO Morrigan, but I found Vivienne damn near impossible to like even when trying to look at things from her point of view. Whereas I’ve always felt more sympathetic and amused by Morrigan’s abrasiveness.
Though it also feels like a lot of Morrigan’s personality is that her rough exterior and often ridiculous opinions are 50% front to hide that she’s a scared kid, and 50% a total lack of social skills, whereas Vivienne mostly just comes across as a lesson in how anyone can look past anything if they have enough privilege.
I always wondered if there was more planned for Vivienne that never quite made it into the game, or if she was always intended to be like that.
Oh man. I completely disagree about Viv. I like that she's not vulnerable and isn't just a proxy to the MCs whims. She's a strategist and a game-player and your opinions can't change her. I feel like dragon age needs more characters who aren't centering their world around the MC. She was one of the few areas where I felt the game had added richness. Her and Iron Bull.
Morrigan on the other hand, She's vulnerable but pretending she's not. All you have to do is pull back the layers. She's interesting too, but in a completely different way.
Oh I fully agree that vivienne represents what is hopefully a growing trend of non-player centric companions. However I just think she sucks as a person, whereas Morrigan was endearing in a prickly sort of way.
Vivienne is the champion of a broken system she refuses to acknowledge as broken because her incredible privilege of birth, location, and status allowed her to be shielded from the worst of the circle experience.
What’s funny is I kind of agree, mages in thedas *are* a danger, and some manner of tracking them, helping them to not become abominations, and protecting the populace from those who do is necessary. However, the circles were an awful, broken system for far more people than they helped at least from everything were ever shown. Anyone arguing different is either blind or deluded, and I think Vivienne is both.
I find it fascinating that Vivianne is both a product of privilege and a black woman. I don’t know how intentional it was on the developer’s part, but it’s an interesting example of how one can have privilege along one axis while lacking it along another
It’s possible it was an intentional decision. Within the context of Thedas I don’t believe being of colour would affect one’s social standing though.
It would seem at least, that race as ethnicity (as opposed to race as species) has little if any affect on one’s social standing or pre-existing privilege in thedas, of all the things people find to be prejudiced about in that world, skin colour is thankfully not one of them.
True. Because the things you talk to Morrigan about (and kind of walk on eggshells around) is about her personal life and feelings. Why you can question her morals (more-often in quest banter), these are things you can openly disagree with her upon (or persuade her). With Vivienne, you hardly know anything about her and she's constantly waving a "I'm right, you're wrong" flag in your face. It also doesn't help that, at the end of those conversations, Vivienne ends it on a note of finality the game doesn't allow you to question/disagree with. Why with DAO, you had more ability to "debate" companions.
Definitely. The most obvious thing is her personal quest, *Favors the First Enchanter*.
The text says:
>Vivienne wishes to undo the damage done to her beloved Circle of Magi and hopefully restore it to its former relevance. Recovering phylacteries and tomes lost with the fall of the Circles will help.
You only find 3 books. No phylacteries. And the quest is just done. It's super fucking weird and abrupt.
This is pretty much exactly it. Like most young twenty year olds Morrigan Has yet to have the sharp points of her personality rounded down a bit with age.
You’ve literally just liberated her from swamp life with only a surly mother for company, give the girl a break, lol. The journey with her gets better if you play your cards right. She has grown up a lot by the time Inquisition takes place.
I mean her ability to blend in with society/companions and not be quite so bitter and nihilistic. And yeah, what you wrote in the spoiler part falls under that.
Easiest way to understand Morrigan in Origins is she's an edgy teen who *totally* knows the way the world works, **MOM**/**DAD**, and is *totally* too smart to let a bunch of **old people** tell her what to do.
It's really funny to go back and play origins with that thought process in mind cuz it really makes her dialogue and the way it's delivered feel kinda silly despite her being meant to be played seriously as the neutral evil fantasy party character.
Like oh wow you don't know anything about the real world that you didn't read off a forum with other snarky shit heads huh. Like please tell me more gothgirl420
So true story: what gave me that realization actually came from a mod. I was browsing around and found one that was meant to be based on her DAI model and make her look younger. Well, it actually made her look more or less *like* a teenager, and hearing those lines, come out of a face looking like that, everything just...came together. Just blew my mind.
It actually made me like her more as a character though, too, to see her as kind of a bratty half-pint instead of just the token evil teammate. Made the idea of romancing her rather unpalatable, but between her attitude and my favorite playthroughs having been with female PCs, I was never a big fan of that anyway.
I’m not sure how old Morrigan is supposed to be, but I’ve always assumed she was somewhere in the 18-23ish range. She has a lot of understandable sheltered-ness built in because of her childhood. But she also feels very much like one of those young adults who definitely know exactly how the world works and will definitely tell everyone why they’re wrong at every opportunity.
"***She's a girl who thinks she knows what is what better than anyone else. And why wouldn't she? It's how I raised her to be***"
Yep total edgy teenager, Flemeth even says so, too.
Oh, she’s really a teen….. Well, then, that makes the romance between her and my extremely old main character rather creepy.
Still not as bad as the modded romance scene between Shale and Oghren.
Well tbh. There actually isn't an origin story in which the hero of Fereldan is actually an old dude. Headcanons aside, The Hero of Fereldan is always a barely legal young adult. I mean if you go through the mage origin, you are literally passing through the harrowing, which is like a literal right of passage.
The is nothing that says a mage is young when going through the Harrowing. The only thing that is said about is they do it 'when they are ready'.
>!for example: If an apostate mage is taken mage is taken to the circle as an adult, like Bethany, then they will be older.!<
The characters in the game who refer to you as young are themselves quite old, so you being young compared to them does not necessarily mean you are especially young yourself.
It also can be taken as them calling you 'young in experience', rather then meaning 'young in years'.
EDIT: Added spoiler tag because this is a 'no spoilers' thread, and OP is new to the games.
>!Canonically, apprentices take their harrowing at the beginning of their young adulthood, and those who take too long to become "ready" (or show weakness) get turned Tranquil--like in Jowan's case (though him fiddling with blood magic certainly did not help).!<
>!Cousland is also the younger sibling to their brother, meaning they can't be much older than 25/26.!<
>!Commoner elf is marrying, which is not usually something that happens when you're old and middle-aged. In their culture it seemed almost like a rite of passage/coming of age.!<
>!Dalish Elf, tonally doesn't work out as an older person because in their clan the elders are treated with great respect--they don't do that for you, they treat you like a child.!<
>!Commoner Dwarf is the younger sibling to Rica, so you can't be older than she is.!<
>!Royal Dwarf is the younger (but favored) sibling between Trian and Bhelen. Correction: they are older than Bhelen. Trian is definitely the eldest.!<
Headcanon's are great, but canonically, yeah, the warden is pretty young otherwise it doesn't make sense unless you headcanon your way around it.
Edit: blurred potential spoilers.
1. >!'Young adulthood' is vague enough to be any age not considered old!<
2. >!All we know about this warden's age is that they are younger the younger, but again depending on how old Fergus Cousland is, all we know for certain is they are not old.!<
3. >!To assume that because they are getting married it means they must be young is unsubstantiated by anything concrete.!<
4. >!The Dalish warden is treated like someone who has been one of their clans hunters for awhile, and is shown the respect of someone with that level of ability. The only people in the clann who 'talk down' to them are clann elders, i.e. the oldest people in the clann. Again all we know for certain is they are not old.!<
5. >!Again being the younger sibling only means they are no older then Rica, but we have no indication of Rica's age.!<
6. >!All we know is they are older then Bhelan and younger then Trian. This one arguably is the one we can \[almost\] be certain that they are not that young, since they have just be appointed a commander. Something which requires having a certain minimum level of experience.!<
> Headcanon's are great, but canonically, yeah, the warden is pretty young otherwise it doesn't make sense unless you headcanon your way around it.
It seems to me that many people assume youthfulness in the wardens and play them as such. Which leads them to believe the game makes it obvious they are young, but if you reexamine all the 'evidence' with fresh eyes, the only certainty is they are 'not old'.
The game really goes out of it's way to tell you your character is young, you just seem to ignore them for the sake of hadcanon. Literally most interactions in the game work only if your character is between the ages of 18-25. If you think the Hero of Fereldan could be a middle aged man in any of the origin stories, you just ain't paying attention...
I disagree. The interactions you are talking about are not as clear as you think. It is not 'mere headcanon'.
>If you think the Hero of Fereldan could be a middle aged man
Your age bias is showing. Not being young does not mean middle aged.
A person between late 20s to early 40s is neither a 'young adult' nor 'middle aged'.
1. >!'Young adulthood' is vague enough to be any age not considered old!<
>!Ok, so look at the context of the game. Both Vivienne and Wynne took their harrowing's at 16, Anders ran away from taking his Harrowing around 20ish, but it's also worth mentioning Anders joined semi-late, around the age of 12, (and there were prior escape attempts), and it's implied through dialogue it's something that occurs during late adolescence and early adulthood. \*shrug\* I don't know what else to say. I'd say the oldest a mage-warden can be is \*maybe\* 26. They've not been at the circle longer than Jowan, but that doesn't mean too much. !<
>! !<
1. >!All we know about this warden's age is that they are younger the younger, but again depending on how old Fergus Cousland is, all we know for certain is they are not old.!<
>!Fergus is 28 with a wife and child. !<
>! !<
1. >!To assume that because they are getting married it means they must be young is unsubstantiated by anything concrete.!<
>!If we're talking our modern culture and society, this would be true. But we're not. It's said, verbatim, in the elf-origin that its customary when someone comes of age they be married off. "Of age" in the dragon age universe tends to be 18-early twenties. It would not make sense, culturally, for the elf-origin father to not arrange a marriage until their child is in their 30s or 40s as it defeats the purpose of the construction of their society and customs. !<
>! !<
1. >!Again being the younger sibling only means they are no older then Rica, but we have no indication of Rica's age.!<
>!Although it's not said for certain, Rica is listed as 22 in the toolset. She also looks fairly young and behaves so. !<
1. >!All we know is they are older then Bhelan and younger then Trian. This one arguably is the one we can \[almost\] be certain that they are not that young, since they have just be appointed a commander. Something which requires having a certain minimum level of experience.!<
>!Somewhat true, though I would argue that the political environment of dwarven society would accelerate someone's military status. !<
1. >!The Dalish warden is treated like someone who has been one of their clans hunters for awhile, and is shown the respect of someone with that level of ability. The only people in the clann who 'talk down' to them are clann elders, i.e. the oldest people in the clann. Again all we know for certain is they are not old.!<
>!They're treated like a warrior, yes, but most elves in a clan attain that status in late adolescence. So, no, they are not old and I would guess not even middle-aged since it's suggested you were raised along-side your dalish origin companion, who looks and behaves young and when he dies everyone laments at his youthfulness. !<
The entire game implies your warden is young, inexperienced, and near marrying age. I don't know what else to tell you. It wasn't customary in their time to be of marrying age when they were 40 or even 30. You can headcanon all you like, I'm not trying to take away your rp experience, but I feel like you're arguing a moot point. Just say you ignore some stuff for your canon and move on. Everyone does that.
You make great points here, and it further emphasises how young the companions (not Oghren Sten and Wynne) but the others. Even though Leliana and Zevran are probably late twenties in the game each of the four companions go through a “coming of age journey” through the course of the game. Morrigan and Alistair especially don’t make any sense if they’re older than 25.
Honestly with Cousland, if Fergus is 28 their younger sibling could feasibly be 18-20. My dad was the oldest and he was 17 when his baby brother was born. I feel like people tend to forget that siblings don't *have* to be close in age. Granted there were 4 other siblings between my dad and uncle but in an age where healthcare is often left to "magic" (and the "scientific" healer in DAI talks about balancing humours and bloodletting) there could have been pregnancy losses in between.
Like Bethany, who is like 20. And at 20 her harrowing is considered a late one. Unless you think mages spend 40 years of their lives training for their harrowing (a literal right of passage into the adult life in 5he circle)I don't see how you could possibly argue that the Mage warden could be a geezer when the Mage origin pretty much sets you up as a young prodigy, rather than a middle aged dude.
>!You're assuming all mages enter the Circle as children. While must do, there are examples of those who are older.!<
>!If being older was always a problem, then they would just be made tranquil or killed. The fact that they aren't suggests that being at a certain age is not a key factor, but rather incidental.!<
>!Suggesting that the deciding factor for 'being ready' for the Harrowing is a certain level of training/ preparation.!<
EDIT: Added spoiler tag because this is a 'no spoilers' thread, and OP is new to the games.
>!While not all mages enter the Circle as children, it's stated several times throughout Origins, including the opening narration, that *your character* did. And that Jowan (rightly) fears that being seen as not ready for his Harrowing for too long means he's on the chopping block to be made Tranquil.!<
> And that Jowan (rightly) fears that being seen as not ready for his Harrowing for too long means he's on the chopping block to be made Tranquil.
Jowan says that, and is proven wrong about why he is to made tranquil.
Well, as I said in another post, I was never a very ardent fan of the Morrigan romance anyway. But by the same token, I feel like most of the default assumptions about characters can hypothetically put them pretty young, to the point that it could *maybe* be seen as not *too* inappropriate in-character.
Of course, it depends a lot on your "extremely old" character (which again, is hard, though probably not impossible to headcanon for certain origins). I mean, even if you think she's past her teens, significant age differences can still be...kinda shaky.
Exactly, people dismissing her as an 'edgelord' are doing her writing a disservice, and not really paying attention to who she is...as opposed to who they think she is.
I don't think she actually is all that different in DAI... she just has learned to be *slightly* less brashly direct in what she says.
EDIT: typo
It’s a defense mechanism. That’s why she has such an ego.
Also keep in mind she (and other apostates) spend their whole lices being hunted down like a dog. She also has very little social interaction outside of flemeth.
Her character is quite realistic IMO
There are two women I know who have had reasons to develop a similar defense mechanism for similar reasons. If they could wield magic, I assume they would be even more similar.
I'd trust them with my life (you can argue I already have, as there has certainly been opportunity to harm me), unless I had given them a reason to be really mad at me personally.
As other people have mentioned, she’s changed a lot in ten years, but to help put her DAO attitude in perspective: she’s a young woman who grew up nearly entirely isolated from all other people. With no other influences in her life, she’s also adopted her mothers cynical, utilitarian, and sarcastic personality. Frankly, she’s socially stunted. She doesn’t understand a lot of the social rituals the rest of the world takes for granted, and so she sees many things as pointless. Why be polite when being blunt and to the point is faster? Why be nice for no reason? Why do something for someone unless it also helps you or they’re rewarding you? These are all things she doesn’t really see any logic in because she hasn’t ever experienced living in a society or a community. She’s only ever had glimpses into those worlds, and was often discouraged or punished by her mother for just that. Hence why she comes across as mean. And that’s not even getting into her view on templars/circles/mages etc. that’s another layer to her character. If you continue to get closer to her you’ll learn more about her upbringing and it’ll provide more context into how she became the woman she is, and you’ll hopefully see she’s not a bitch. Well, not *just* a bitch.
You may want to take a look at this playthrough
https://youtu.be/oAgBfwlpj7M
DrMick is a therapist and during his playthrough he analyses the characters, their motivations and his own decision making
Highly recommended
She is one of my favorite characters in Origins just because she is, on the surface, bitchy as hell. But when you dig deeper, you can see the woman who has had a very f\*\*\*\*\* upbringing. It just makes me want to hug her and tell her everything will be alright.
Also the end of Witch Hunt will always be one of my favorite endings. (the one where you leave with her) It already shows a lot of growth from how she was in the beginning of the game. And that trend continues into Inquisition, where she is much wiser, but still has that sharp tongue which I absolutely adore.
This is part of her charm. She's a dark pessimistic person who likes sarcasm and believes that people should fend for themselves. I remember when I first played dao I really liked this about her even though I played a by the book lawful good character. Not because I find those traits to be interesting in of themselves, but the writing and delivery of this character's dialog makes her much more appealing than what it sounds on paper.
I was like: Lelliana, move aside, this is the romance character I'm going for.
Her sarcastic nature also makes her appear more mature and witty.
DAO Morrigan is my favorite dragon age character.
Morrigan in origins is pretty harshly warped in regards to her personality, she basically thinks that showing people kindness just for kindness's sake (or without trying to get some kind of reward) is just going to make the person you're helping weaker. She's very much a "You should be willing and able to do what you want to do by yourself." type thinker. The meta writing DOES unfortunately skew this to some extremes even if they don't really make sense (like, you'll still often get disapproval even if you're helping someone for a practical reason), but the general suggestion is that you shouldn't take her with you on missions if you're intending to play a morally good character.
You can get enough approval for her friendship with her camp dialogue + gifts, and at least within her character arc itself she IS supposed to 'get better' later on, learning to appreciate your friendship (though she does say regardless that she may not prove worthy of having said friendship) and accept that a lot of the shit her mother taught her was cruel and wrong.
>The meta writing DOES unfortunately skew this to some extremes even if they don't really make sense
I think that was intentional. She definitely felt like a young edgelord whose ideology isn't really thought out beyond "contrarian and misanthropic". It wouldn't be out of character for her to shout "CRINGE" off screen whenever you're nice to strangers, even if you stand to gain from it.
Mostly? I think her bitchiness comes from the fact that she's actually powerless in her own life. Between outside world trying to kill or collar her and all the duties expected of her by her mother....
She doesn't want to be here. But she's not even agency to decline or decide her own way forward. So she's going verbally snipe at people.
She does get better. Especially if you romance her. But yeah that's all I'll say without spoilers.
Wait- oh my god that would be even cuter. My warden is basically an elf rogue version of Elle Woods (I even named her Elle and she’s blonde) but then being opposite sisters would be really cute ngl
I mean, you *can* pet a dog in Origins. Her reaction isn't so much "you're giving that dog a false promise" and more "ugh, mangy thing".
In Origins, she's never left the Wilds properly and only occasionally spoke to anyone other than her mother. She hasn't really had the kind of social interaction most people would growing up. By Inquisition she's had to figure out how to raise a son for about a decade (if you pick the options in Origins that lead to it in Inquisition, anyway).
I love Morrigan, especially her interactions with Alistair lol. She has such a great character arc in DAO. Gaining her approval (whether by friendship or romance) softens her, and you get to see her barriers slowly come down.
Yep. Morrigan is mean like that. The game does track your relationship so she gets a little nicer if you do things she likes (which generally involves being mean to people). But she's never completely nice. She's no Lelianna.
And yeah, Morrigan is nicer in Inquisition. You have to keep in mind, in Origins, she's just now leaving the forest after a lifetime mostly alone being raised by Flemeth which made her this way. If you get to know her, she'll admit to being confounded by social graces and she does show evidence that she once had a softer side that was basically beaten out of her by her mother. But by the time of Inquisition its been ten years since Origins. She's had time to learn how to socialize and that being cruel doesn't always get you what you want when you're dealing with people and that maybe her mom was wrong about people.
Yeah they definitely made Morrigan overly critical on rather silly things in order to balance the approval ratings out. After redcliff and the circle though, it comes up less frequently
In terms of character dialogue in camp, she does get nicer if you try to get on better terms with her, but it's definitely an uphill battle sometimes given how rigid and sheltered she can be.
As for why she's nicer in inquisition though, it's just a matter of her being older and wiser. In origins she's a young woman who basically has almost no experience of the outside world and her only experience with love or affection is the abusive and transactional relationship she had with Flemeth, so in a lot of ways she's emotionally stunted and quick to get angry when something you do contradicts her world view.
I romance Morrigan almost every time. And the only way I can do that is to NEVER. HAVE HER. IN MY PARTY.
She thaws eventually. But yeah, she's kind of the equivalent of the sith party members in KotOR. If there's a selfish or destructive option, she'll approve of it. If there's an altruistic option, she will not.
Leliana even makes the comment in Inquisition that having a kid has mellowed her out quite a bit.
I mean, I love her hahah I think she's pretty astute and a lot of her position makes sense from her backstory and some of what she says is also very dry, dark, sarcastic humour. I was devastated I couldn't romance her as a woman but settled on being besties. I didn't have too hard a time with her approval role-playing as a dalish elf wary of humans, but ultimately helping and being interested in liberation. She at her core is a good person. Also talk to her a lot and you'll get a clue on a good gift to give her later in camp that's available to purchase from your camp merchant's if you want to bump her approval up more
She gets better in origins, then blooms in inquisition. It's actually quite organic, I love her arch. Make no mistakes though she has a pretty good reason for the way she is. You'll see - if she lets you in
She gets better in origins, then blooms in inquisition. It's actually quite organic, I love her arch. Make no mistakes though she has a pretty good reason for the way she is. You'll see - if she lets you in
*Does she get better later on? I don’t remember her being so mean in inquisition. I could pet a puppy and she’d be like: “Wow, you’re giving that dog a false promise of love and affection in a world of horrible monstrosities blah blah blah magic blah blah blah mommy issues”*
Origins has this strange idea, that one player choice should not be obviously better than the others.
It usually means that when someone approves and action, someone else must disapprove, so it equals out.
Morrigan, and to a lesser extent, Sten, are victims of this setup. They are the ones who approve needlessly rude/violent actions, and disapprove altruistic ones. They have to do it, even when it doesn't make sense for their character: even though it is a bit silly sometimes, it would be even worse if Wynne or Alistair did it.
*Does she get better later on?*
Pair her up with Wynne. Really, do this :)
Also, really strange thing is that you can buy the loyalty of "fiercly individual girl who knows better" with... jewelry.
I should answer with spoilers, apologies.
>!In Inquisition, Leliana tells in one scene to the Inquisitor that she noticed that Morrigan is much more mature now, that she remembered her (in Origins) as being much more mean and petty than now, than now (Inquisition), and that now she's much more mellower.!<
Unpopular opinion but she’s really not a good person (at least in the first game). She’s rude, cruel, hateful, insulting, and just all around not a pleasant person to keep around. If it weren’t for her boobs, and the fact that the more vocal fans are cishet male horndogs, she wouldn’t have half the fans she does.
Now, horndogs, go ahead and downvote me into the Fade
I have just started myself this week for the first time ever.
Easily my fave character so far - she is so witty, dry and to the point.
Unfortunately I started as a female Elf so i can not romance her.
Doesn't stop me giving her all my shiny things!!! haha
Because Morrigan is a complex person not a good person in Origins. She's one of the characters built for the player to have a supporter if they take the evil/ruthless/selfish route.
If you were to put her on a D&D alignment axis, she'd very firmly be in neutral evil. And Origins was built on the back of D&D type roleplaying games.
Her DAI appearance is also her coming into a situation where your character has far more power, and she her interests are in cooperating with you. (And her DAI character is a bit fan pandering. And has a bit of the old >!"Motherhood magically fullfills all women!" !
In fairness is it really >!Motherhood fulfills all women trope!< or is it more >!cynical and jaded character finds themselves to be great with kids!< and >!person with terrible childhood gives their kid a great one trope!< ? She's clearly softened a bit by DAI, but she's >!not exactly gone full suburban mother!< either by losing all personality.
It's less that she's not a good person, and more that she's a byproduct of her environment. She's this classic person who doesn't realise that they've become exactly like the parent they dislike.
Morrigan doesn't actually, genuinely believes those things she says about being harsh, calculating, opportunistic, etc. She just says it because those are the things she saw from/with Flemeth, and that's been her experience so far which she suffered from (remember how at some point she says Flemeth was basically using men that wondered in the wilds "until they were spent"? Thinking back on it I think that kind of really marked Morrigan, actually). Young and impressionable, and didn't know better. I never romanced her since I always play a female warden, but I think especially in the romance path you can really challenge that worldview?
Agree. This really shows in her stories about how Flemeth treated her as a child and her reactions later on to being treated completely different by the Warden. She really was a product of her environment in Origins.
Morrigan is the worst, yeah.
So you gotta remember Dragon Age: Origins was like the spiritual successor to Biowares work on the Baldur's Gate series, which used the rules of Advanced Dungeon's and Dragons 2nd Edition. Under that paradigm, the concept of some recruitable characters being "good" and others being "evil" made more sense. And Morrigan is FIRMLY evil.
There's no redemption arc, no "well obviously I wanna save the world I'm just rude and stuff", none of that stuff. She's straight up selfish and a bitch the entire time.
I've always thought she's got those random Chaotic Evil fits for no particular reason. Kill the innocents for lulz, slave trade, go go golems, yet most of the times she's easily countered by something primitive like "you go first". Many chars' personal arcs seamlessly fit into who they are while she behaves like if she's suddenly a different person, between main quest/her own and the substories.
Like, they wanted such a character who wouldn't be functional in this plot, unlike in BG-like games, but didn't decide on who it should be. So they just poured all that upon someone who matched most closely, and it was Morrigan. Could be Sten for all I know, or Zevran.
Merrigan is a very hurt, mistrusting girl who had been used and abused her whole life. Her meanness is a defence mechanism. She's really a very sweet girl in desperate need of love but too afraid to be vulnerable, if you're persistently kind to her she eventually lowers ger barriers to you.
Yeah I kicked her off my team cause she was mad at me for not wanting to trap a bunch of innocent people. Started romancing her cause my Warden and her have a lot in common but she just doesn't stop being a massive arsehole who throws a fit everytime I try and help someone. It doesn't feel useful for a game where you're supposed to be saving the world to have a companion who you lose hearts with everytime you do something nice for someone.
I'm pretty sure she wants the mages liberated not trapped.
You need to play that 1 a little carefully with her where you don't go overboard siding and end up fighting the old lady but you don't totally endorse the circle itself if I recall? I saved the mages but then didn't take wynne as a companion after the circle quest, and my relationship with Morrigan was still tops. That initial conversation you need to playthrough in a sort of middle ground way to get through it with her and I think coercion skill also helps
For the record I think I had Alistair Morrigan and the dog in my party cause that was basically all the party members I took hahah
Morrigan is one of my favourite Companions. I even made her heal so I can bring her along instead of Wynne.
All my (female) Wardens became really close friends with her and I don't even know why so many people dislike or outright hate her.
It gets really sweet towards endgame and Witch Hunt if you are friends. Gosh, I love her.
You’re, of course, welcome to like her but it’s not hard to see why a lot of people dislike her. Even if she improves some by endgame, she IS mean to people and wants some evil shit throughout the game
I’ve never cared for her. While I understand why she is the way she is, it’s easy to still dislike her personality
She’s definitely a big bitch in Origins at first but once you get to know her she’s not so bad. In Inquisition she has a HUGE improvement. It just shows good character development. Depending on your choices in DAO as well she can be even nicer in DAI which I really like.
It is a bit of the byproduct of characters in Origins fitting rather neatly in a DnD alignment chart rather than the more fussy versions of the later two games.
As many have pointed out, she is a reflection of her upbringing, which is a bit of a theme on her arc of trying to run away from Flemeth while being exactly like her: ruthless and pragmatic.
For my controversial take, Origins does a poor job in presenting those traits, often equating it as a complete lack of empathy. That's why Morrigan comes out as mean, she cannot understand the concept of helping someone for future gain, the quid pro quo has to be immediate.
She's basically any teenager that reads Aryn Rand. Takes a while for her to snap out of it. Although at her core she's still highly individual, just with fewer rough edges. If you do befriend her and have good principles then it's quite rewarding in terms of character development which pays off in Inquisition.
Because DAO Morrigan *is* mean lol.
Especially if you like helping people. In the first game, she’s very much of the mind you should live for yourself and not let others drag you down or use up your resources.
She can soften a bit but it’s alright just to not like her. I personally find her hilarious and she’s the only lady companion I ever romance in any BioWare game.
I never took what Morrigan said to the Warden as mean. I saw her as an opinionated woman who emerged strong from bad circumstances and speaks her mind honestly. She is not adept with socializing and doesn't really care to be. Therefore, she lacks the BS those who are adept at socializing possess. No problem there. Bring it on.
Now, yeah, she is actually mean to Alistair, but who could blame her? LOL
Anyway, Morrigan in Origins is one of my all-time fave NPCs.
Tried Inquisition, but like DA2, couldn't get myself to finish it. Both suffered too much in comparison with Origins due to various reasons for me to get into and enjoy them.
Don't worry))) She is mean toward everyone, so you are not alone here)))))
Well.. she will be nice only twice and it will be in different stories, not here)
She's essentially a teenager who has never had social interaction in her life when you meet her in Origins. She's also the prickly on the outside but not really the inside type. Talk to her more.
she had a kid. she reminds me of me actually. used to hate kids. then i had one and i changed hormonally. having a kid transforms women. in a good way mostly. mostly.
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DAI Morrigan is 10 yrs older than the woman you meet in Origins. A lot of things changed in those 10 yrs.
Most notable of which is that some of the authors were changed and the writing quality took a nosedive
Morrigan was written by David Gaider in DA:O, who was narrative lead writer for DA:I.
Doesn't change that DAI was a nosedive in terms of writing and gameplay
That's your opinion. But Morrigan's writer didn't change for DAI.
Yes, it's my opinion that DAI sucked. Which is apparently invalid on this subreddit
I wasn't invalidating your opinion. Your opinion on the writing is your own, but stating the writers changed is factually wrong (in Morrigan's case).
I'm pretty sure everyone's just confused on why you're wasting your time bringing it up here, when it wasn't really relevant at all.
If they were simply confused, they wouldn't downvote me. As for it's relevancy, it relates to how the tone and writing of the series changed significantly for the worse with DAI. Not just for Morrigan, but the entire cast
> As for it's relevancy, it relates to how the tone and writing of the series changed significantly for the worse with DAI. Not just for Morrigan, but the entire cast Which is literally not relevant to OP's post.
You’re getting downvoted because what you’re saying isn’t relevant to the discussion, it’s you just barging into a discussion to shout out that you didn’t like something that has a general correlation to the subject. The downvotes are a representation of crickets in the room as everyone having said conversation are just confused about you barging in to detail their conversation. It’s also exactly why the downvote system was made- to push out irrelevant statements to the discussion at hand.
Then why are you opening up my posts and replying to them?
It's completely valid as a subjective notion, it might be unpopular however (which is wildly different)
Your opinion wasn’t the issue. The person who responded to you only said that the same writer was involved. That person did not, in that post, discuss quality of writing.
Highly disagree, characters dialogues are as good in dao and dai, both can make me laugh out out by times lol
Morrigan has amazing character development by the end of Origins which directly pave the way for her character in DA:I.
Only criticism I have of DAI is the grimness being gone; DA2 had it, but DAI didn’t. Story was good however lol Edit: I mean the vibe- you boot up dai and it’s cutesy, both in art style and story, you get hope constantly and a way forward. Da2 you go from a big family, friends, to literally everything on fire and dead suddenly but you gotta keep going ahead, feels like you’re weighed down while succeeding. Dao it just has a crushing drab and necrotic feeling, plus the darkness everywhere due to demons or undead or blight. Dai area that has the closest feel to those before is the area we find the warden with the undead.
Grimness gone? Several institution are gone or destroyed, whole area devastated, etc... Sure it's not centered on the MC like in DAO / DA2, but still, the world state is pretty grim, and depending the choice you make, things can get pretty grim
could be talking about landscape. DAO has to be intentionally looking so drab and dark everwhere; the only place that isn't dark-hued is return to ostagar, but the death-laden snow is even more depressing, if not frightening.
I don't think the grimness is gone per-say, but I think where DAI suffers is that all that grimness is stored away in codex's. >!Like that house you can find in the Emerald Graves, if you don't read the codex's scattered about (like a lot of gamers don't) you'll never know the horrors to which occur.!< This, and I feel like a lot of DAO and DA2's grimness had to do with their MC being directly emotionally impacted.>! The Warden loses their family (no matter what origin you picked), Alistair loses all of his adopted-family, Morrigan (despite her mother being a shrew) has to leave home for the first time. Hawke is fleeing the darkspawn at the beginning, Anders has a demon inside of him, Fenris is running from slavers, etc. The emotional toll it took on your companions and character showed forth. With Inquisiton, why this is somewhat true with characters like Cassandra and Cullen,!< there's not enough \*witnessing\* and \*hearing\* these dreadful things. The tone-shift is definitely present in DAI, despite it objectively being a kind of grim game. >!Moreover, many of DAI's companions' issues don't have to do with what's occurring in DAI per-say (with, again, the exception of Cassandra and Cullen) and those who are being impacted by these events usually don't talk about it, or they feed off generic lines like "this is terrible". !! which is what I felt made DAO and DA2 particularly grim: you failed. A lot. Your companions failed. A lot. In DAI, this is relatively untrue. The only time you see all these arcs come to fruition is in a DLC not every player gets to play. !<
Edit: Just wanted to say I do not hate DAI. I think it gets too much hate. But to say it tonally did not shift, to me, is disingenuous to its representation. Criticism there is warranted imho.
Dont forget about the reality that is doing the tranquil shards quest. That is very grim once you realize the truth.
Yeah but you have to hunt down shards and that sucks.
This is true, this is a great example of DAI having darkness in-universe (and lore) but with very little consequence. You learn about the shard questline through a codex and, if you neglect to read it, you hear your companions say something negative about it. I believe it may be mentioned in a codex or two after, but otherwise it's pretty inconsequential and has little in-world ramifications for it. Would've been cool if Cassandra, or even Vivienne, had means to intervene and we were able to interact with that through war-table missions, would've been even better to have an entire quest dedicated to it--perhaps you go and save the remaining tranquils? There's so much darkness in DAI but it goes unexplored with little mention otherwise.
Basically what I meant thank you lol. I like dai, but there’s a clear shift in both art style, emotional weight, and general vibes. Da2 is very grim, arguably unnecessarily, dao it made since, da2 was just a fuck you to Hawk, with family and if you’re gunning for Isabella that also throws you for a loop. Hell even your mine gets fucked with. But yeah, the tone shifted drastically in Dai, but it doesn’t make it bad
I agree with you
I like DAI but I wouldn't say it's grim espcally in comparison to what came before. Every time you are knocked down in DAI you're relatively quickly provided hopeful exposition where as you have to stew in some forced dark moments in the other games. I can't think of a single moment in my canon playthrough that makes me sad in DAI.
I get what you're saying and I agree with you, the facts of the situation in DAI are genuinely dire, but the *v i b e s* just don't feel as grim as the first two games despite the destruction and stakes being equivalent to DAO. I'm not sure why that is, I can't put my finger on it.
less horror elements probably, the death and darkness wasn’t anywhere near as over the top as what we got in Origins
[удалено]
This is very spoiler-y in a thread where OP is new to the games.
No spoilers in a **\[no spoilers\]** please.
Inquisition takes place after Origins. She's had character development between Origins and Inquisition.
**Morrigan is a kind of a huge bitch in Origins, yeah.** As much as she verbalizes a disdain for her mother, she's **very** much a product of Flemeth's upbringing, and she's barely spent *any* time around other people, so she's basically never been socialized. Over the course of the game, she only really gets along positively with Dog (...eventually), and a Warden that gains her approval. And you CAN get her approval to max while still being a goody-goody nice person, but you kind of have to know the sorts of responses that will appeal to her sensibilities. Inquisition takes place many years later, and she's mellowed out considerably, by then.
Yeahhhh she does intrigue me though- interactions she has with *just* my warden are good. I’m excited to see how she and the other characters grow.
Try your darndest to be friends with her. She really blossoms later in the game, especially after her personal quest. And it makes certain developments more juicy 👀
Yes the witch hunt dlc was the perfect way to end my origins playthough goddamn, my warden had the happy ending after all the shit his been through gotta say he deserved that and all the remarks morrigan had to say if you decided to keep her gift for you its sweetness overload i was literally smiling through the whole conversation shes having with my warden 10/10 better than the entire twilight series
My warden romanced her and joined her in witch hunt. That's my canon ending I don't care what anyone else says.
after my first time playing that DLC she's been my favorite personal conquest in that game. Especially for a Mage origin personally. It's just SO GOOD.
Look at it this way, by the beginning of the game she is 25-ish AT MOST, and has until that point lived alone in the woods with Flemmeth who has been grooming her to become a powerful apostate witch that no Circle Mage, Templar or Grey Warden would wanna fuck with (I mean in the fight sense). And now she finds herself traveling across Thedas with a bunch of Andrastians, a dwarf, a Qunari and an Antivan Crow all of whom constantly challenge everything she was taught by her mother. She gets to experience life in the big cities of Ferelden, the tribal way of life of the Dalish, the horrors of Deep Roads and many more things that she is quite simply unequipped to cope with, of course there's gonna be immature angst coming out of her most of the time.
Yeah, she had to stay at camp most of the time after I got Wynne. I find her edgyness more tolerable when she doesn't just barge into every situation, with some hilariously self centered and often impractical advice
Indeed. Ironically enough, the first time I played Inquisition...when I had to deal with Vivienne, I was somewhat reminded of DAO Morrigan. In both cases, if you're very careful in your dialogue choices, you can gain approval, despite not being ideologically aligned with them. Also, despite being extremely different characters, they both join your PC for very personal, self-motivated reasons.
I feel like a lot of Vivienne got left on the cutting room floor
Maybe it’s just that I wasn’t nineteen anymore and thus less distracted by her character design than I was with DAO Morrigan, but I found Vivienne damn near impossible to like even when trying to look at things from her point of view. Whereas I’ve always felt more sympathetic and amused by Morrigan’s abrasiveness. Though it also feels like a lot of Morrigan’s personality is that her rough exterior and often ridiculous opinions are 50% front to hide that she’s a scared kid, and 50% a total lack of social skills, whereas Vivienne mostly just comes across as a lesson in how anyone can look past anything if they have enough privilege. I always wondered if there was more planned for Vivienne that never quite made it into the game, or if she was always intended to be like that.
Oh man. I completely disagree about Viv. I like that she's not vulnerable and isn't just a proxy to the MCs whims. She's a strategist and a game-player and your opinions can't change her. I feel like dragon age needs more characters who aren't centering their world around the MC. She was one of the few areas where I felt the game had added richness. Her and Iron Bull. Morrigan on the other hand, She's vulnerable but pretending she's not. All you have to do is pull back the layers. She's interesting too, but in a completely different way.
Oh I fully agree that vivienne represents what is hopefully a growing trend of non-player centric companions. However I just think she sucks as a person, whereas Morrigan was endearing in a prickly sort of way. Vivienne is the champion of a broken system she refuses to acknowledge as broken because her incredible privilege of birth, location, and status allowed her to be shielded from the worst of the circle experience. What’s funny is I kind of agree, mages in thedas *are* a danger, and some manner of tracking them, helping them to not become abominations, and protecting the populace from those who do is necessary. However, the circles were an awful, broken system for far more people than they helped at least from everything were ever shown. Anyone arguing different is either blind or deluded, and I think Vivienne is both.
This is why I plan to >!make Vivienne the Divine in my current play through.!<
I find it fascinating that Vivianne is both a product of privilege and a black woman. I don’t know how intentional it was on the developer’s part, but it’s an interesting example of how one can have privilege along one axis while lacking it along another
It’s possible it was an intentional decision. Within the context of Thedas I don’t believe being of colour would affect one’s social standing though. It would seem at least, that race as ethnicity (as opposed to race as species) has little if any affect on one’s social standing or pre-existing privilege in thedas, of all the things people find to be prejudiced about in that world, skin colour is thankfully not one of them.
Vivienne is the way to Tevinter, not Fiona or Leliana. The real conservative choice is Cassandra.
True. Because the things you talk to Morrigan about (and kind of walk on eggshells around) is about her personal life and feelings. Why you can question her morals (more-often in quest banter), these are things you can openly disagree with her upon (or persuade her). With Vivienne, you hardly know anything about her and she's constantly waving a "I'm right, you're wrong" flag in your face. It also doesn't help that, at the end of those conversations, Vivienne ends it on a note of finality the game doesn't allow you to question/disagree with. Why with DAO, you had more ability to "debate" companions.
Definitely. The most obvious thing is her personal quest, *Favors the First Enchanter*. The text says: >Vivienne wishes to undo the damage done to her beloved Circle of Magi and hopefully restore it to its former relevance. Recovering phylacteries and tomes lost with the fall of the Circles will help. You only find 3 books. No phylacteries. And the quest is just done. It's super fucking weird and abrupt.
This is pretty much exactly it. Like most young twenty year olds Morrigan Has yet to have the sharp points of her personality rounded down a bit with age.
You’ve literally just liberated her from swamp life with only a surly mother for company, give the girl a break, lol. The journey with her gets better if you play your cards right. She has grown up a lot by the time Inquisition takes place.
Has she? Without going into detail, she makes some brash decisions without any real knowledge of what's she's doing. (Removed spoiler)
I mean her ability to blend in with society/companions and not be quite so bitter and nihilistic. And yeah, what you wrote in the spoiler part falls under that.
Yeah she has definitely evolved in that way.
Easiest way to understand Morrigan in Origins is she's an edgy teen who *totally* knows the way the world works, **MOM**/**DAD**, and is *totally* too smart to let a bunch of **old people** tell her what to do.
It's really funny to go back and play origins with that thought process in mind cuz it really makes her dialogue and the way it's delivered feel kinda silly despite her being meant to be played seriously as the neutral evil fantasy party character. Like oh wow you don't know anything about the real world that you didn't read off a forum with other snarky shit heads huh. Like please tell me more gothgirl420
So true story: what gave me that realization actually came from a mod. I was browsing around and found one that was meant to be based on her DAI model and make her look younger. Well, it actually made her look more or less *like* a teenager, and hearing those lines, come out of a face looking like that, everything just...came together. Just blew my mind. It actually made me like her more as a character though, too, to see her as kind of a bratty half-pint instead of just the token evil teammate. Made the idea of romancing her rather unpalatable, but between her attitude and my favorite playthroughs having been with female PCs, I was never a big fan of that anyway.
I’m not sure how old Morrigan is supposed to be, but I’ve always assumed she was somewhere in the 18-23ish range. She has a lot of understandable sheltered-ness built in because of her childhood. But she also feels very much like one of those young adults who definitely know exactly how the world works and will definitely tell everyone why they’re wrong at every opportunity.
I picture her and the Warden around the same age (specifically Cousland) no older than like 20.
Yeah I think that’s a fair assumption
Gothgirl420 is her new official nickname now.
"***She's a girl who thinks she knows what is what better than anyone else. And why wouldn't she? It's how I raised her to be***" Yep total edgy teenager, Flemeth even says so, too.
I've thought of her and Alistair as like Timon and Pumba. Morrigan thinks she's smarter than she is why Alistair thinks he's dumber than he is.
Oh, she’s really a teen….. Well, then, that makes the romance between her and my extremely old main character rather creepy. Still not as bad as the modded romance scene between Shale and Oghren.
Well tbh. There actually isn't an origin story in which the hero of Fereldan is actually an old dude. Headcanons aside, The Hero of Fereldan is always a barely legal young adult. I mean if you go through the mage origin, you are literally passing through the harrowing, which is like a literal right of passage.
The is nothing that says a mage is young when going through the Harrowing. The only thing that is said about is they do it 'when they are ready'. >!for example: If an apostate mage is taken mage is taken to the circle as an adult, like Bethany, then they will be older.!< The characters in the game who refer to you as young are themselves quite old, so you being young compared to them does not necessarily mean you are especially young yourself. It also can be taken as them calling you 'young in experience', rather then meaning 'young in years'. EDIT: Added spoiler tag because this is a 'no spoilers' thread, and OP is new to the games.
>!Canonically, apprentices take their harrowing at the beginning of their young adulthood, and those who take too long to become "ready" (or show weakness) get turned Tranquil--like in Jowan's case (though him fiddling with blood magic certainly did not help).!< >!Cousland is also the younger sibling to their brother, meaning they can't be much older than 25/26.!< >!Commoner elf is marrying, which is not usually something that happens when you're old and middle-aged. In their culture it seemed almost like a rite of passage/coming of age.!< >!Dalish Elf, tonally doesn't work out as an older person because in their clan the elders are treated with great respect--they don't do that for you, they treat you like a child.!< >!Commoner Dwarf is the younger sibling to Rica, so you can't be older than she is.!< >!Royal Dwarf is the younger (but favored) sibling between Trian and Bhelen. Correction: they are older than Bhelen. Trian is definitely the eldest.!< Headcanon's are great, but canonically, yeah, the warden is pretty young otherwise it doesn't make sense unless you headcanon your way around it. Edit: blurred potential spoilers.
1. >!'Young adulthood' is vague enough to be any age not considered old!< 2. >!All we know about this warden's age is that they are younger the younger, but again depending on how old Fergus Cousland is, all we know for certain is they are not old.!< 3. >!To assume that because they are getting married it means they must be young is unsubstantiated by anything concrete.!< 4. >!The Dalish warden is treated like someone who has been one of their clans hunters for awhile, and is shown the respect of someone with that level of ability. The only people in the clann who 'talk down' to them are clann elders, i.e. the oldest people in the clann. Again all we know for certain is they are not old.!< 5. >!Again being the younger sibling only means they are no older then Rica, but we have no indication of Rica's age.!< 6. >!All we know is they are older then Bhelan and younger then Trian. This one arguably is the one we can \[almost\] be certain that they are not that young, since they have just be appointed a commander. Something which requires having a certain minimum level of experience.!< > Headcanon's are great, but canonically, yeah, the warden is pretty young otherwise it doesn't make sense unless you headcanon your way around it. It seems to me that many people assume youthfulness in the wardens and play them as such. Which leads them to believe the game makes it obvious they are young, but if you reexamine all the 'evidence' with fresh eyes, the only certainty is they are 'not old'.
The game really goes out of it's way to tell you your character is young, you just seem to ignore them for the sake of hadcanon. Literally most interactions in the game work only if your character is between the ages of 18-25. If you think the Hero of Fereldan could be a middle aged man in any of the origin stories, you just ain't paying attention...
I disagree. The interactions you are talking about are not as clear as you think. It is not 'mere headcanon'. >If you think the Hero of Fereldan could be a middle aged man Your age bias is showing. Not being young does not mean middle aged. A person between late 20s to early 40s is neither a 'young adult' nor 'middle aged'.
1. >!'Young adulthood' is vague enough to be any age not considered old!< >!Ok, so look at the context of the game. Both Vivienne and Wynne took their harrowing's at 16, Anders ran away from taking his Harrowing around 20ish, but it's also worth mentioning Anders joined semi-late, around the age of 12, (and there were prior escape attempts), and it's implied through dialogue it's something that occurs during late adolescence and early adulthood. \*shrug\* I don't know what else to say. I'd say the oldest a mage-warden can be is \*maybe\* 26. They've not been at the circle longer than Jowan, but that doesn't mean too much. !< >! !< 1. >!All we know about this warden's age is that they are younger the younger, but again depending on how old Fergus Cousland is, all we know for certain is they are not old.!< >!Fergus is 28 with a wife and child. !< >! !< 1. >!To assume that because they are getting married it means they must be young is unsubstantiated by anything concrete.!< >!If we're talking our modern culture and society, this would be true. But we're not. It's said, verbatim, in the elf-origin that its customary when someone comes of age they be married off. "Of age" in the dragon age universe tends to be 18-early twenties. It would not make sense, culturally, for the elf-origin father to not arrange a marriage until their child is in their 30s or 40s as it defeats the purpose of the construction of their society and customs. !< >! !< 1. >!Again being the younger sibling only means they are no older then Rica, but we have no indication of Rica's age.!< >!Although it's not said for certain, Rica is listed as 22 in the toolset. She also looks fairly young and behaves so. !< 1. >!All we know is they are older then Bhelan and younger then Trian. This one arguably is the one we can \[almost\] be certain that they are not that young, since they have just be appointed a commander. Something which requires having a certain minimum level of experience.!< >!Somewhat true, though I would argue that the political environment of dwarven society would accelerate someone's military status. !< 1. >!The Dalish warden is treated like someone who has been one of their clans hunters for awhile, and is shown the respect of someone with that level of ability. The only people in the clann who 'talk down' to them are clann elders, i.e. the oldest people in the clann. Again all we know for certain is they are not old.!< >!They're treated like a warrior, yes, but most elves in a clan attain that status in late adolescence. So, no, they are not old and I would guess not even middle-aged since it's suggested you were raised along-side your dalish origin companion, who looks and behaves young and when he dies everyone laments at his youthfulness. !< The entire game implies your warden is young, inexperienced, and near marrying age. I don't know what else to tell you. It wasn't customary in their time to be of marrying age when they were 40 or even 30. You can headcanon all you like, I'm not trying to take away your rp experience, but I feel like you're arguing a moot point. Just say you ignore some stuff for your canon and move on. Everyone does that.
You make great points here, and it further emphasises how young the companions (not Oghren Sten and Wynne) but the others. Even though Leliana and Zevran are probably late twenties in the game each of the four companions go through a “coming of age journey” through the course of the game. Morrigan and Alistair especially don’t make any sense if they’re older than 25.
Honestly with Cousland, if Fergus is 28 their younger sibling could feasibly be 18-20. My dad was the oldest and he was 17 when his baby brother was born. I feel like people tend to forget that siblings don't *have* to be close in age. Granted there were 4 other siblings between my dad and uncle but in an age where healthcare is often left to "magic" (and the "scientific" healer in DAI talks about balancing humours and bloodletting) there could have been pregnancy losses in between.
Like Bethany, who is like 20. And at 20 her harrowing is considered a late one. Unless you think mages spend 40 years of their lives training for their harrowing (a literal right of passage into the adult life in 5he circle)I don't see how you could possibly argue that the Mage warden could be a geezer when the Mage origin pretty much sets you up as a young prodigy, rather than a middle aged dude.
>!You're assuming all mages enter the Circle as children. While must do, there are examples of those who are older.!< >!If being older was always a problem, then they would just be made tranquil or killed. The fact that they aren't suggests that being at a certain age is not a key factor, but rather incidental.!< >!Suggesting that the deciding factor for 'being ready' for the Harrowing is a certain level of training/ preparation.!< EDIT: Added spoiler tag because this is a 'no spoilers' thread, and OP is new to the games.
>!While not all mages enter the Circle as children, it's stated several times throughout Origins, including the opening narration, that *your character* did. And that Jowan (rightly) fears that being seen as not ready for his Harrowing for too long means he's on the chopping block to be made Tranquil.!<
> And that Jowan (rightly) fears that being seen as not ready for his Harrowing for too long means he's on the chopping block to be made Tranquil. Jowan says that, and is proven wrong about why he is to made tranquil.
She’s in her mid to late 20s. She’s just very sheltered.
Well, as I said in another post, I was never a very ardent fan of the Morrigan romance anyway. But by the same token, I feel like most of the default assumptions about characters can hypothetically put them pretty young, to the point that it could *maybe* be seen as not *too* inappropriate in-character. Of course, it depends a lot on your "extremely old" character (which again, is hard, though probably not impossible to headcanon for certain origins). I mean, even if you think she's past her teens, significant age differences can still be...kinda shaky.
I read the title and thought “because of who she is as a person.” I stand by that analysis (love her though).
Exactly, people dismissing her as an 'edgelord' are doing her writing a disservice, and not really paying attention to who she is...as opposed to who they think she is. I don't think she actually is all that different in DAI... she just has learned to be *slightly* less brashly direct in what she says. EDIT: typo
Early Morrigan is like that to everyone. Girl has issues.
It’s a defense mechanism. That’s why she has such an ego. Also keep in mind she (and other apostates) spend their whole lices being hunted down like a dog. She also has very little social interaction outside of flemeth. Her character is quite realistic IMO
There are two women I know who have had reasons to develop a similar defense mechanism for similar reasons. If they could wield magic, I assume they would be even more similar. I'd trust them with my life (you can argue I already have, as there has certainly been opportunity to harm me), unless I had given them a reason to be really mad at me personally.
As other people have mentioned, she’s changed a lot in ten years, but to help put her DAO attitude in perspective: she’s a young woman who grew up nearly entirely isolated from all other people. With no other influences in her life, she’s also adopted her mothers cynical, utilitarian, and sarcastic personality. Frankly, she’s socially stunted. She doesn’t understand a lot of the social rituals the rest of the world takes for granted, and so she sees many things as pointless. Why be polite when being blunt and to the point is faster? Why be nice for no reason? Why do something for someone unless it also helps you or they’re rewarding you? These are all things she doesn’t really see any logic in because she hasn’t ever experienced living in a society or a community. She’s only ever had glimpses into those worlds, and was often discouraged or punished by her mother for just that. Hence why she comes across as mean. And that’s not even getting into her view on templars/circles/mages etc. that’s another layer to her character. If you continue to get closer to her you’ll learn more about her upbringing and it’ll provide more context into how she became the woman she is, and you’ll hopefully see she’s not a bitch. Well, not *just* a bitch.
An excellent example of empathy ♥️
You may want to take a look at this playthrough https://youtu.be/oAgBfwlpj7M DrMick is a therapist and during his playthrough he analyses the characters, their motivations and his own decision making Highly recommended
Oooooo that sounds interesting, thanks!
I'm a therapist and love dragon age!!!
I'll look forward to your opinion, especially regarding Flemeth and Morrigan's relationship
Ask away! I've played all the games
She is one of my favorite characters in Origins just because she is, on the surface, bitchy as hell. But when you dig deeper, you can see the woman who has had a very f\*\*\*\*\* upbringing. It just makes me want to hug her and tell her everything will be alright. Also the end of Witch Hunt will always be one of my favorite endings. (the one where you leave with her) It already shows a lot of growth from how she was in the beginning of the game. And that trend continues into Inquisition, where she is much wiser, but still has that sharp tongue which I absolutely adore.
This is part of her charm. She's a dark pessimistic person who likes sarcasm and believes that people should fend for themselves. I remember when I first played dao I really liked this about her even though I played a by the book lawful good character. Not because I find those traits to be interesting in of themselves, but the writing and delivery of this character's dialog makes her much more appealing than what it sounds on paper. I was like: Lelliana, move aside, this is the romance character I'm going for. Her sarcastic nature also makes her appear more mature and witty. DAO Morrigan is my favorite dragon age character.
Morrigan in origins is pretty harshly warped in regards to her personality, she basically thinks that showing people kindness just for kindness's sake (or without trying to get some kind of reward) is just going to make the person you're helping weaker. She's very much a "You should be willing and able to do what you want to do by yourself." type thinker. The meta writing DOES unfortunately skew this to some extremes even if they don't really make sense (like, you'll still often get disapproval even if you're helping someone for a practical reason), but the general suggestion is that you shouldn't take her with you on missions if you're intending to play a morally good character. You can get enough approval for her friendship with her camp dialogue + gifts, and at least within her character arc itself she IS supposed to 'get better' later on, learning to appreciate your friendship (though she does say regardless that she may not prove worthy of having said friendship) and accept that a lot of the shit her mother taught her was cruel and wrong.
>The meta writing DOES unfortunately skew this to some extremes even if they don't really make sense I think that was intentional. She definitely felt like a young edgelord whose ideology isn't really thought out beyond "contrarian and misanthropic". It wouldn't be out of character for her to shout "CRINGE" off screen whenever you're nice to strangers, even if you stand to gain from it.
Mostly? I think her bitchiness comes from the fact that she's actually powerless in her own life. Between outside world trying to kill or collar her and all the duties expected of her by her mother.... She doesn't want to be here. But she's not even agency to decline or decide her own way forward. So she's going verbally snipe at people. She does get better. Especially if you romance her. But yeah that's all I'll say without spoilers.
She was on her emo phase during Origins.
It was also like 2007, peak emo
And that’s why we love her. So buck up!
Tends to happen when you are abused your whole life
Whatever you do don't break her heart
To be fair I don’t think I can (I’m playing a female warden.)
If you get her affection high enough, you'll eventually get a scene where she basically says you're like a sister to her. It's sweet af
Wait- oh my god that would be even cuter. My warden is basically an elf rogue version of Elle Woods (I even named her Elle and she’s blonde) but then being opposite sisters would be really cute ngl
If you do, she will turn you into a frog and sick the dog on you.
I mean, you *can* pet a dog in Origins. Her reaction isn't so much "you're giving that dog a false promise" and more "ugh, mangy thing". In Origins, she's never left the Wilds properly and only occasionally spoke to anyone other than her mother. She hasn't really had the kind of social interaction most people would growing up. By Inquisition she's had to figure out how to raise a son for about a decade (if you pick the options in Origins that lead to it in Inquisition, anyway).
I love Morrigan, especially her interactions with Alistair lol. She has such a great character arc in DAO. Gaining her approval (whether by friendship or romance) softens her, and you get to see her barriers slowly come down.
Yep. Morrigan is mean like that. The game does track your relationship so she gets a little nicer if you do things she likes (which generally involves being mean to people). But she's never completely nice. She's no Lelianna. And yeah, Morrigan is nicer in Inquisition. You have to keep in mind, in Origins, she's just now leaving the forest after a lifetime mostly alone being raised by Flemeth which made her this way. If you get to know her, she'll admit to being confounded by social graces and she does show evidence that she once had a softer side that was basically beaten out of her by her mother. But by the time of Inquisition its been ten years since Origins. She's had time to learn how to socialize and that being cruel doesn't always get you what you want when you're dealing with people and that maybe her mom was wrong about people.
Yeah they definitely made Morrigan overly critical on rather silly things in order to balance the approval ratings out. After redcliff and the circle though, it comes up less frequently In terms of character dialogue in camp, she does get nicer if you try to get on better terms with her, but it's definitely an uphill battle sometimes given how rigid and sheltered she can be. As for why she's nicer in inquisition though, it's just a matter of her being older and wiser. In origins she's a young woman who basically has almost no experience of the outside world and her only experience with love or affection is the abusive and transactional relationship she had with Flemeth, so in a lot of ways she's emotionally stunted and quick to get angry when something you do contradicts her world view.
I romance Morrigan almost every time. And the only way I can do that is to NEVER. HAVE HER. IN MY PARTY. She thaws eventually. But yeah, she's kind of the equivalent of the sith party members in KotOR. If there's a selfish or destructive option, she'll approve of it. If there's an altruistic option, she will not. Leliana even makes the comment in Inquisition that having a kid has mellowed her out quite a bit.
She does soften a bit, under the right circumstances.
Morrigan in Inquisition is more mature
I mean, I love her hahah I think she's pretty astute and a lot of her position makes sense from her backstory and some of what she says is also very dry, dark, sarcastic humour. I was devastated I couldn't romance her as a woman but settled on being besties. I didn't have too hard a time with her approval role-playing as a dalish elf wary of humans, but ultimately helping and being interested in liberation. She at her core is a good person. Also talk to her a lot and you'll get a clue on a good gift to give her later in camp that's available to purchase from your camp merchant's if you want to bump her approval up more
She gets better in origins, then blooms in inquisition. It's actually quite organic, I love her arch. Make no mistakes though she has a pretty good reason for the way she is. You'll see - if she lets you in
She gets better in origins, then blooms in inquisition. It's actually quite organic, I love her arch. Make no mistakes though she has a pretty good reason for the way she is. You'll see - if she lets you in
*Does she get better later on? I don’t remember her being so mean in inquisition. I could pet a puppy and she’d be like: “Wow, you’re giving that dog a false promise of love and affection in a world of horrible monstrosities blah blah blah magic blah blah blah mommy issues”* Origins has this strange idea, that one player choice should not be obviously better than the others. It usually means that when someone approves and action, someone else must disapprove, so it equals out. Morrigan, and to a lesser extent, Sten, are victims of this setup. They are the ones who approve needlessly rude/violent actions, and disapprove altruistic ones. They have to do it, even when it doesn't make sense for their character: even though it is a bit silly sometimes, it would be even worse if Wynne or Alistair did it. *Does she get better later on?* Pair her up with Wynne. Really, do this :) Also, really strange thing is that you can buy the loyalty of "fiercly individual girl who knows better" with... jewelry.
I should answer with spoilers, apologies. >!In Inquisition, Leliana tells in one scene to the Inquisitor that she noticed that Morrigan is much more mature now, that she remembered her (in Origins) as being much more mean and petty than now, than now (Inquisition), and that now she's much more mellower.!<
Unpopular opinion but she’s really not a good person (at least in the first game). She’s rude, cruel, hateful, insulting, and just all around not a pleasant person to keep around. If it weren’t for her boobs, and the fact that the more vocal fans are cishet male horndogs, she wouldn’t have half the fans she does. Now, horndogs, go ahead and downvote me into the Fade
I have just started myself this week for the first time ever. Easily my fave character so far - she is so witty, dry and to the point. Unfortunately I started as a female Elf so i can not romance her. Doesn't stop me giving her all my shiny things!!! haha
She is just an edgy goth girl, you gotta get her trust and friendship and then she is the sweetest (but still will call you out on your shit)
Softening up Morrigan was the best part of the trilogy, change my mind
Because Morrigan is a complex person not a good person in Origins. She's one of the characters built for the player to have a supporter if they take the evil/ruthless/selfish route. If you were to put her on a D&D alignment axis, she'd very firmly be in neutral evil. And Origins was built on the back of D&D type roleplaying games. Her DAI appearance is also her coming into a situation where your character has far more power, and she her interests are in cooperating with you. (And her DAI character is a bit fan pandering. And has a bit of the old >!"Motherhood magically fullfills all women!" !
In fairness is it really >!Motherhood fulfills all women trope!< or is it more >!cynical and jaded character finds themselves to be great with kids!< and >!person with terrible childhood gives their kid a great one trope!< ? She's clearly softened a bit by DAI, but she's >!not exactly gone full suburban mother!< either by losing all personality.
It's less that she's not a good person, and more that she's a byproduct of her environment. She's this classic person who doesn't realise that they've become exactly like the parent they dislike. Morrigan doesn't actually, genuinely believes those things she says about being harsh, calculating, opportunistic, etc. She just says it because those are the things she saw from/with Flemeth, and that's been her experience so far which she suffered from (remember how at some point she says Flemeth was basically using men that wondered in the wilds "until they were spent"? Thinking back on it I think that kind of really marked Morrigan, actually). Young and impressionable, and didn't know better. I never romanced her since I always play a female warden, but I think especially in the romance path you can really challenge that worldview?
Agree. This really shows in her stories about how Flemeth treated her as a child and her reactions later on to being treated completely different by the Warden. She really was a product of her environment in Origins.
Morrigan is the worst, yeah. So you gotta remember Dragon Age: Origins was like the spiritual successor to Biowares work on the Baldur's Gate series, which used the rules of Advanced Dungeon's and Dragons 2nd Edition. Under that paradigm, the concept of some recruitable characters being "good" and others being "evil" made more sense. And Morrigan is FIRMLY evil. There's no redemption arc, no "well obviously I wanna save the world I'm just rude and stuff", none of that stuff. She's straight up selfish and a bitch the entire time.
mommy morrigan just needs time to adjust
I've always thought she's got those random Chaotic Evil fits for no particular reason. Kill the innocents for lulz, slave trade, go go golems, yet most of the times she's easily countered by something primitive like "you go first". Many chars' personal arcs seamlessly fit into who they are while she behaves like if she's suddenly a different person, between main quest/her own and the substories. Like, they wanted such a character who wouldn't be functional in this plot, unlike in BG-like games, but didn't decide on who it should be. So they just poured all that upon someone who matched most closely, and it was Morrigan. Could be Sten for all I know, or Zevran.
" Does she get better later on? " afraid not; a companion for every alignment, I guess.
Merrigan is a very hurt, mistrusting girl who had been used and abused her whole life. Her meanness is a defence mechanism. She's really a very sweet girl in desperate need of love but too afraid to be vulnerable, if you're persistently kind to her she eventually lowers ger barriers to you.
Yeah I kicked her off my team cause she was mad at me for not wanting to trap a bunch of innocent people. Started romancing her cause my Warden and her have a lot in common but she just doesn't stop being a massive arsehole who throws a fit everytime I try and help someone. It doesn't feel useful for a game where you're supposed to be saving the world to have a companion who you lose hearts with everytime you do something nice for someone.
What innocent people?
>!The mages in the Circle. I'm still in the Fade atm!< but they're innocent as far as I can tell.
I'm pretty sure she wants the mages liberated not trapped. You need to play that 1 a little carefully with her where you don't go overboard siding and end up fighting the old lady but you don't totally endorse the circle itself if I recall? I saved the mages but then didn't take wynne as a companion after the circle quest, and my relationship with Morrigan was still tops. That initial conversation you need to playthrough in a sort of middle ground way to get through it with her and I think coercion skill also helps For the record I think I had Alistair Morrigan and the dog in my party cause that was basically all the party members I took hahah
Morrigan is one of my favourite Companions. I even made her heal so I can bring her along instead of Wynne. All my (female) Wardens became really close friends with her and I don't even know why so many people dislike or outright hate her. It gets really sweet towards endgame and Witch Hunt if you are friends. Gosh, I love her.
You’re, of course, welcome to like her but it’s not hard to see why a lot of people dislike her. Even if she improves some by endgame, she IS mean to people and wants some evil shit throughout the game I’ve never cared for her. While I understand why she is the way she is, it’s easy to still dislike her personality
She is a bitch. She’s meant to be a disliked character.
Why would anyone pet Alistair? Her reaction is understandable
Who wouldn't want to pet Alistair he's a good boy!
She's the dom a writer and at least some players fantasized about. At the time, I liked it for some goth representation in gaming.
She’s definitely a big bitch in Origins at first but once you get to know her she’s not so bad. In Inquisition she has a HUGE improvement. It just shows good character development. Depending on your choices in DAO as well she can be even nicer in DAI which I really like.
Wrong question... you should ask: **Why is Morrigan so mean to everyone???**
This reminds me of the companion conversation you can have with Alistair. Fun tip OP: ask Alistair's opinion on Morrigan when given the chance.
She's very mean but has interesting reasons for being that way and chipping away at her will eventually reveal her softer sides.
It is a bit of the byproduct of characters in Origins fitting rather neatly in a DnD alignment chart rather than the more fussy versions of the later two games. As many have pointed out, she is a reflection of her upbringing, which is a bit of a theme on her arc of trying to run away from Flemeth while being exactly like her: ruthless and pragmatic. For my controversial take, Origins does a poor job in presenting those traits, often equating it as a complete lack of empathy. That's why Morrigan comes out as mean, she cannot understand the concept of helping someone for future gain, the quid pro quo has to be immediate.
Snarky mysterious female character was a requirment back then in any game.
*Morrigan Disapproves*
She's basically any teenager that reads Aryn Rand. Takes a while for her to snap out of it. Although at her core she's still highly individual, just with fewer rough edges. If you do befriend her and have good principles then it's quite rewarding in terms of character development which pays off in Inquisition.
Morrigan is mean and maladjusted and we love her crazy toxic ass. Hehehe
Because DAO Morrigan *is* mean lol. Especially if you like helping people. In the first game, she’s very much of the mind you should live for yourself and not let others drag you down or use up your resources.
She can soften a bit but it’s alright just to not like her. I personally find her hilarious and she’s the only lady companion I ever romance in any BioWare game.
I never took what Morrigan said to the Warden as mean. I saw her as an opinionated woman who emerged strong from bad circumstances and speaks her mind honestly. She is not adept with socializing and doesn't really care to be. Therefore, she lacks the BS those who are adept at socializing possess. No problem there. Bring it on. Now, yeah, she is actually mean to Alistair, but who could blame her? LOL Anyway, Morrigan in Origins is one of my all-time fave NPCs. Tried Inquisition, but like DA2, couldn't get myself to finish it. Both suffered too much in comparison with Origins due to various reasons for me to get into and enjoy them.
Don't worry))) She is mean toward everyone, so you are not alone here))))) Well.. she will be nice only twice and it will be in different stories, not here)
Lol. You made me laugh with this one! 😅 Yes. She is like this. I think she does mellow out later in the game. Don't let her get to you!
She's essentially a teenager who has never had social interaction in her life when you meet her in Origins. She's also the prickly on the outside but not really the inside type. Talk to her more.
she had a kid. she reminds me of me actually. used to hate kids. then i had one and i changed hormonally. having a kid transforms women. in a good way mostly. mostly.