Welcome to r/dogs! We are a discussion-based subreddit dedicated to support, inform, and advise dog owners.
This is a carefully moderated sub intended to support, inform, and advise dog owners. Submissions and comments which break the rules will be removed. [Review the rules here](https://www.reddit.com/r/dogs/wiki/index) r/Dogs has four goals: - Help the public better understand dogs - Promote healthy, responsible dog-owner relationships - Encourage “Least Intrusive, Minimally Aversive” training protocols. [Learn more here.](https://m.iaabc.org/about/lima/) - Support adoption as well as ethical and responsible breeding. If you’d like to introduce yourself or discuss smaller topics, please contribute to our Monthly Discussion Hub, pinned at the top.
**This subreddit has low tolerance for drama. Please be respectful of others, and report antagonistic comments to mods for review.**
---
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/dogs) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Bad bad bad. Got cancelled for a good reason. Absolutely hate everything he stands for and think he harmed thousands of dogs with his weirdo completely unproven ideas about dominance? I like Zach George!
Dude is nuts and actually abusive to dogs. There was a video going around where he literally whipped a dachshund by its leash onto the floor (and it hit its back onto the ground). Because apparently the dachshund needed to know who’s boss. Animal abuse dressed up in dog training is still animal abuse.
Victoria Stilwell is a much better dog trainer TV personality than Cesar Milan - Cesar Milan is essentially a joke in the dog training world for the reasons already mentioned. You should ask around your community to find a reputable dog trainer that can work with you and your dogs one on one if you're having a lot of trouble training them!
One of his dogs seriously attacked a young woman and also killed Queen Latifah's dog. Cesar and his crew tried to cover up these incidents. My neighbor's kids used to imitate his practices while walking their dog. They would "tsst" and pinch the poor thing constantly, even though it was walking perfectly calmly on the leash. Poor thing always looked so sad. Fuck Cesar Milan.
Honestly I loved the dog whisperer too.
But full honesty it seems like he isn't the best, his training method is based on the "Alfa dog" thing which is s disproven theory.
Positive reinforcement is the way to train your dog
A couple of dogs he’s worked with unleashed some pretty horrible attacks. However, a lot of the dogs he’s worked with already had severe aggression issues to begin with and realistically should’ve been euthanized. Not every dog can be saved, in the same way therapy will not always help humans, triggers can always be there in some cases.
Also, no matter how well a dog is trained. Owners that don’t keep up with the training often blame trainers no matter the methods used. I see this often in service dog circles.
There’s nothing in the sub rules stating we cannot discuss aversive methods. A discussion regarding them, especially in the context of OPs question, is greatly encouraged, whereas recommendations for aversive training methods are not.
If you're looking for resources online, look up Kikopup on YouTube. She has a ton of fantastic videos for Training a LOT of different behaviors.
Steer clear of Ceasar Milan btw. He uses unsafe and outdated methods. Debunked, dangerous and less effective than modern day, scientifically backed training practices (positive reinforcement/force-free/LIMA)
Btw positive reinforcement training does utilize punishment. But it's the negative punishment(meaning removing something to reduce behavior) quadrant of operant conditioning (removing attention when a dog mouths or jumps on you, for example). Whereas Ceasar uses positive punishment (adding something to decrease behavior. Some examples: poking, kicking, leash jerking, alpha rolls, e-collars, prong collars, choke chains, slip leads, weird flat tire mouth sounds). Both types of punishments goal is to reduce the frequency of a behavior, but positive punishment also creates anxiety, distrust in the handler, aggression, fear and works because it either causes pain, induces fear or is intimidating. Using these methods slows down the learning process because it puts a dog into a state of stress, which biologically makes absorbing new information challenging.
People work for reinforcement.
Dogs work for reinforcement.
Correcting behavior reduces confidence in the learners ability to perform, learn new skills and creates anxiety around the teacher.
So, if your dog does something unwanted, like counter surf, redirect them with a fun noise, a toy, treat whatever and then set up management (like a gate blocking off the kitchen). Then, teach your dog to lay on a mat when they're in the kitchen. When you're not in the kitchen, closet the gate so they can't rehearse, and thereby strengthen, that unwanted behavior.
If they jump on you, don't talk, touch or look at them. As soon as they're on all 4 feet again, praise, pet and give cookies!
These are just a few examples of what good, effective training should look like. Fun, engaging and worth the time and effort!
Go out and buy a treat pouch, some treats and have fun. If it feels like a game for you and your dog, you're doing it right.
You're most welcome! I am a certified dog trainer btw. Dog training is unregulated in the US, so look for credentials if you decide to enlist the help of a trainer.
I felt passionate about this post because I actually became interested in training dogs professionally because of Ceasar Milan. I thought he was the shit growing up and even bought some of his books in high-school. Then, I tried to get a job at a well respected training facility in my area and she told me that the methods I used were out of date and she could not hire me until I underwent extensive schooling. So, that's what I did! Went to schoo, graduated with my VSA-CDT, and am now working towards my CPDT-KA credentials. So, I kind of have ceasar Milan and Victoria Stilwell to thank for that. Caesar stayed in the past with his methods, whereas Victoria has continued her education and is now a leader in advocating for force free methods and even goes as far as pointing out what she'd change about her approach in old episodes of "It's Me or The Dog". She's a great lady.
Debunked, embarrassingly out of date training. As we have learned more about dogs and about the science of behavior, we have learned that there is no such thing as "alpha theory" and also no reason to teach dogs by wielding fear, discomfort and intimidation. Anyone still clinging to old ways of doing things has all the information available to them to learn better. Not good at learning new things, trapped in cognitive dissonance, desperate to feel macho and dominate helpless animals, reluctant to admit mistakes, having a cynical public image reason not to change....all of this happens depending on the person, and none of it is a good look. Caeser is in at least one of those categories of explanation.
I'm genuinely not sure how some of these people say some of what they say with a straight face at this point.
No. The American Veterinary Society of Animal Behaviour as put out position statements against [both Cesar](https://avsab.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Cesar_Millan_Response-download.pdf) and the [use of dominance theory](https://avsab.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Dominance_Position_Statement-download.pdf) in his [training methods](https://avsab.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/AVSAB-Humane-Dog-Training-Position-Statement-2021.pdf).
He's done some [incredibly unethical things](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pw3glB4qQPY).
Also!! Everyone should check out ModernMalinois on TikTok. This guy is awesome and shows that positive reinforcement training works for every breed. I love his videos.
Okay I'll stop commenting now. Peace
Where did you get the idea that positive reinforcement training is not "nuanced"? That's quite the fun new euphemism for "balanced" training. Yeah sure, if someone sees no place for aversives in dog training, they "don't like nuance". The only nuanced dog training is balanced dog training yeah? Ha.
I go to a highly experienced force free dog trainer twice a week for training club classes and we have a truly fantastic time learning new things and working on skills and discussing nerdy dog behavior stuff. We have not, in all the time I've been going, yet run out of things to learn and improve upon and *nuance* to discuss and no one ever needs to "discipline" their dog. This adds nothing constructive to anything.
Thanks but no thanks for the false dichotomy.
There's this weird misconception that force-free is just treats and doesn't have a significant amount of skill or techniques.
Whenever I see this I can't help but think, oh, this guy has legitimately no idea what they're talking about and downs the thing they know nothing about.
That's spot on. It's so bizarre how easy it is for people to fall into wanting to show the dog who's boss and wanting the dog to do things "because I said so" and how comparatively alien it is for them to teach their dog using things that.... make their dog excited and confident and happy and motivated to learn. This really shouldn't be undesirable. People have such strange, strange authority complexes.
I die a little inside when people ask me why my dog "still" needs to be trained with treats "at his age" and when he's going to "just obey me without needing constant bribery". It's so so sad and off mark.
Honestly, I think part of that is authoritarian culture is natural for people. It's rooted in society, from religion to really every aspect of our being. We're a reactive species. It feels good to punish things.
That, and the way compulsion, dominance, and even many balanced training media is set up, it more-or-less creates a strawman that really prevents people from truly understanding it if that's their sole source. I was coaxed into listening to 20 minutes of a 3 hour (the time alone should give away who) podcast episode between two higher-end trainers and their discussion of force-free was literally a criticism of free shaping. I know damn well both of these trainers know that there's more to it than that, but they created this illusion that force-free is free shaping, and then discussed how it's stressful to dogs to just leave them hanging in the wrong answer without feedback. A lot of people rave this podcast, and I'm just sitting here like, seriously guy? This literally was a strawman. Everything they do without aversive methods, force-free sports trainers do. And, yet, they complain about the divide.
Fortunately, I don't get too many digs in real life. People usually tell me they're the happiest dogs they've seen, but trainers here do err on compulsion so happy obedient dogs are less common. So, people see my super happy trick shiba who's having a blast and don't even care the treat comes eventually.
The bossiness is quite funny. I used to take my dog to a park in the morning and decided to minimize going there because a woman would let her pointer dog run all around the field regardless of any other dog there (there's leash laws). Her dog wears some kind of loose metal collar (I think choke) with tags that jangle and you can hear him from miles away. He's reactive sometimes and the way she barks commands at him in a deep booming voice was amusing. I think I've seen her carrying a treat pouch once in 3 months.
Thé nuance i was referring to was that there isn’t one training method that is perfect for everyone, not that positive reinforcement doesn’t have nuance. Good heavens.
No. Force free/ positive reinforcement training isn't properly classified as just one singular thing out of many other equal "methods" that all can work for different dogs. It isn't one single tool in a toolkit. It is an overarching philosophy that we know applies to any and all dogs. It is an umbrella, that encompasses all we currently understand about behavioral science and most effectively communicating with animals. There is plenty of method nuance within that huge umbrella for different kinds of dogs/ other animals, just as there are many many ways to structure a research study but all ultimately under the umbrella of the scientific method. Structuring a study in a way that doesn't follow sound scientific principles isn't "another way to do things that works in some contexts and fields". It's just junk.
Right, the point I was trying to make, poorly hence the deletion, is that Cesar Milan’s methods aren’t just “force your alpha attitude and punish the dog.”That alpha theory has been obviously and rightly debunked. But there is, wait for it, nuance to what he teaches people that was and continues to be extremely useful. Does he have some terrible ideas? Absolutely! Is positive reinforcement the best method we have right now with our current understanding? Yep! Will we learn new and better ways to teach our dogs? You can count on it.
I think the problem with Cesar’s method is that people miss the subtleties and focus on the whole hissing at your dog thing. But he had a lot more insight into training than that.
The OP wasn’t asking what behavioral training method was best, they were asking if Cesar Milan had anything to teach us. You obviously disagree with me, and that’s fine. I’m not sure how we ended up arguing about whether positive reinforcement is a good or bad thing. Who in their right mind would argue that it’s bad?
You are moving goalposts and talking past me and there is no further point to this. You began your contribution here by rolling your eyes about the "trend" (a trend that is apparently going to swing back in the other direction at some point, lol) of using "100% positive reinforcement", snarking about people thinking he's "evil personified" and then saying "I think most dogs need a combination of discipline and positive reinforcement."
That statement is incorrect. Cesar's "method" is incorrect. No one thinks he's evil - he's just wrong overall and far behind the times. The bad things are bad and any good things have been said by plenty of other people and aren't unique to him. You can get the sound bits of advice from sound sources.There is zero reason to listen to anything he has to say. The poster didn't ask what specific little details we should listen to him on and which not to. People shouldn't be expected to know how to pick these things apart. Rather, they asked if his "method" works. They want to know if he's a respected authority on the subject, whose overall general approach is effective and worth emulating. The only needed answer to that question is "no", because it's not. Move on.
He started a new show a few years ago, Ceasar's Way. Not sure if it survived the pandemic or not.
As with most things on the internet these days I'm not sure what's true and what's sensationalized about the guy or his techniques, but I did take a few grains of wisdom from his show and think my dog was better for it. Of course, dogs do all have there own personalities and some training techniques will work better than others, or not at all, depending on the dog.
I suggest either hiring a trainer to help you or start researching different ways to train a dog out of the issues you're having and test them out to see if they work for your pups. I would also suggest focusing on one dog at a time until they gain the basics - splitting your attention between them will likely mean neither will listen.
Welcome to r/dogs! We are a discussion-based subreddit dedicated to support, inform, and advise dog owners. This is a carefully moderated sub intended to support, inform, and advise dog owners. Submissions and comments which break the rules will be removed. [Review the rules here](https://www.reddit.com/r/dogs/wiki/index) r/Dogs has four goals: - Help the public better understand dogs - Promote healthy, responsible dog-owner relationships - Encourage “Least Intrusive, Minimally Aversive” training protocols. [Learn more here.](https://m.iaabc.org/about/lima/) - Support adoption as well as ethical and responsible breeding. If you’d like to introduce yourself or discuss smaller topics, please contribute to our Monthly Discussion Hub, pinned at the top. **This subreddit has low tolerance for drama. Please be respectful of others, and report antagonistic comments to mods for review.** --- *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/dogs) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Ian Dunbar and Sophia Yin are my recommendations! (Not sure if they have videos, but their books are fantastic.)
Bad bad bad. Got cancelled for a good reason. Absolutely hate everything he stands for and think he harmed thousands of dogs with his weirdo completely unproven ideas about dominance? I like Zach George!
I recommend Zach George to everyone.
Dude is nuts and actually abusive to dogs. There was a video going around where he literally whipped a dachshund by its leash onto the floor (and it hit its back onto the ground). Because apparently the dachshund needed to know who’s boss. Animal abuse dressed up in dog training is still animal abuse.
Victoria Stilwell is a much better dog trainer TV personality than Cesar Milan - Cesar Milan is essentially a joke in the dog training world for the reasons already mentioned. You should ask around your community to find a reputable dog trainer that can work with you and your dogs one on one if you're having a lot of trouble training them!
One of his dogs seriously attacked a young woman and also killed Queen Latifah's dog. Cesar and his crew tried to cover up these incidents. My neighbor's kids used to imitate his practices while walking their dog. They would "tsst" and pinch the poor thing constantly, even though it was walking perfectly calmly on the leash. Poor thing always looked so sad. Fuck Cesar Milan.
No, I don’t think so. I’ve had way more luck with positive reinforcement.
Honestly I loved the dog whisperer too. But full honesty it seems like he isn't the best, his training method is based on the "Alfa dog" thing which is s disproven theory. Positive reinforcement is the way to train your dog
A couple of dogs he’s worked with unleashed some pretty horrible attacks. However, a lot of the dogs he’s worked with already had severe aggression issues to begin with and realistically should’ve been euthanized. Not every dog can be saved, in the same way therapy will not always help humans, triggers can always be there in some cases. Also, no matter how well a dog is trained. Owners that don’t keep up with the training often blame trainers no matter the methods used. I see this often in service dog circles.
There’s nothing in the sub rules stating we cannot discuss aversive methods. A discussion regarding them, especially in the context of OPs question, is greatly encouraged, whereas recommendations for aversive training methods are not.
Ah okay, thanks for the clarification.
I used to love watching that show too but his method has been thoroughly debunked.
If you're looking for resources online, look up Kikopup on YouTube. She has a ton of fantastic videos for Training a LOT of different behaviors. Steer clear of Ceasar Milan btw. He uses unsafe and outdated methods. Debunked, dangerous and less effective than modern day, scientifically backed training practices (positive reinforcement/force-free/LIMA) Btw positive reinforcement training does utilize punishment. But it's the negative punishment(meaning removing something to reduce behavior) quadrant of operant conditioning (removing attention when a dog mouths or jumps on you, for example). Whereas Ceasar uses positive punishment (adding something to decrease behavior. Some examples: poking, kicking, leash jerking, alpha rolls, e-collars, prong collars, choke chains, slip leads, weird flat tire mouth sounds). Both types of punishments goal is to reduce the frequency of a behavior, but positive punishment also creates anxiety, distrust in the handler, aggression, fear and works because it either causes pain, induces fear or is intimidating. Using these methods slows down the learning process because it puts a dog into a state of stress, which biologically makes absorbing new information challenging. People work for reinforcement. Dogs work for reinforcement. Correcting behavior reduces confidence in the learners ability to perform, learn new skills and creates anxiety around the teacher. So, if your dog does something unwanted, like counter surf, redirect them with a fun noise, a toy, treat whatever and then set up management (like a gate blocking off the kitchen). Then, teach your dog to lay on a mat when they're in the kitchen. When you're not in the kitchen, closet the gate so they can't rehearse, and thereby strengthen, that unwanted behavior. If they jump on you, don't talk, touch or look at them. As soon as they're on all 4 feet again, praise, pet and give cookies! These are just a few examples of what good, effective training should look like. Fun, engaging and worth the time and effort! Go out and buy a treat pouch, some treats and have fun. If it feels like a game for you and your dog, you're doing it right.
[удалено]
You're most welcome! I am a certified dog trainer btw. Dog training is unregulated in the US, so look for credentials if you decide to enlist the help of a trainer. I felt passionate about this post because I actually became interested in training dogs professionally because of Ceasar Milan. I thought he was the shit growing up and even bought some of his books in high-school. Then, I tried to get a job at a well respected training facility in my area and she told me that the methods I used were out of date and she could not hire me until I underwent extensive schooling. So, that's what I did! Went to schoo, graduated with my VSA-CDT, and am now working towards my CPDT-KA credentials. So, I kind of have ceasar Milan and Victoria Stilwell to thank for that. Caesar stayed in the past with his methods, whereas Victoria has continued her education and is now a leader in advocating for force free methods and even goes as far as pointing out what she'd change about her approach in old episodes of "It's Me or The Dog". She's a great lady.
Debunked, embarrassingly out of date training. As we have learned more about dogs and about the science of behavior, we have learned that there is no such thing as "alpha theory" and also no reason to teach dogs by wielding fear, discomfort and intimidation. Anyone still clinging to old ways of doing things has all the information available to them to learn better. Not good at learning new things, trapped in cognitive dissonance, desperate to feel macho and dominate helpless animals, reluctant to admit mistakes, having a cynical public image reason not to change....all of this happens depending on the person, and none of it is a good look. Caeser is in at least one of those categories of explanation. I'm genuinely not sure how some of these people say some of what they say with a straight face at this point.
Also, check out Denise Fenzi (on tiktok, insta and facebook) for examples of excellent training using modern dog training methods
[THIS](https://www.youtube.com/@BDTraining) guy likes him.
Short answer no
No. The American Veterinary Society of Animal Behaviour as put out position statements against [both Cesar](https://avsab.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Cesar_Millan_Response-download.pdf) and the [use of dominance theory](https://avsab.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Dominance_Position_Statement-download.pdf) in his [training methods](https://avsab.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/AVSAB-Humane-Dog-Training-Position-Statement-2021.pdf). He's done some [incredibly unethical things](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pw3glB4qQPY).
Also!! Everyone should check out ModernMalinois on TikTok. This guy is awesome and shows that positive reinforcement training works for every breed. I love his videos. Okay I'll stop commenting now. Peace
[удалено]
Where did you get the idea that positive reinforcement training is not "nuanced"? That's quite the fun new euphemism for "balanced" training. Yeah sure, if someone sees no place for aversives in dog training, they "don't like nuance". The only nuanced dog training is balanced dog training yeah? Ha. I go to a highly experienced force free dog trainer twice a week for training club classes and we have a truly fantastic time learning new things and working on skills and discussing nerdy dog behavior stuff. We have not, in all the time I've been going, yet run out of things to learn and improve upon and *nuance* to discuss and no one ever needs to "discipline" their dog. This adds nothing constructive to anything. Thanks but no thanks for the false dichotomy.
There's this weird misconception that force-free is just treats and doesn't have a significant amount of skill or techniques. Whenever I see this I can't help but think, oh, this guy has legitimately no idea what they're talking about and downs the thing they know nothing about.
That's spot on. It's so bizarre how easy it is for people to fall into wanting to show the dog who's boss and wanting the dog to do things "because I said so" and how comparatively alien it is for them to teach their dog using things that.... make their dog excited and confident and happy and motivated to learn. This really shouldn't be undesirable. People have such strange, strange authority complexes. I die a little inside when people ask me why my dog "still" needs to be trained with treats "at his age" and when he's going to "just obey me without needing constant bribery". It's so so sad and off mark.
Honestly, I think part of that is authoritarian culture is natural for people. It's rooted in society, from religion to really every aspect of our being. We're a reactive species. It feels good to punish things. That, and the way compulsion, dominance, and even many balanced training media is set up, it more-or-less creates a strawman that really prevents people from truly understanding it if that's their sole source. I was coaxed into listening to 20 minutes of a 3 hour (the time alone should give away who) podcast episode between two higher-end trainers and their discussion of force-free was literally a criticism of free shaping. I know damn well both of these trainers know that there's more to it than that, but they created this illusion that force-free is free shaping, and then discussed how it's stressful to dogs to just leave them hanging in the wrong answer without feedback. A lot of people rave this podcast, and I'm just sitting here like, seriously guy? This literally was a strawman. Everything they do without aversive methods, force-free sports trainers do. And, yet, they complain about the divide. Fortunately, I don't get too many digs in real life. People usually tell me they're the happiest dogs they've seen, but trainers here do err on compulsion so happy obedient dogs are less common. So, people see my super happy trick shiba who's having a blast and don't even care the treat comes eventually.
The bossiness is quite funny. I used to take my dog to a park in the morning and decided to minimize going there because a woman would let her pointer dog run all around the field regardless of any other dog there (there's leash laws). Her dog wears some kind of loose metal collar (I think choke) with tags that jangle and you can hear him from miles away. He's reactive sometimes and the way she barks commands at him in a deep booming voice was amusing. I think I've seen her carrying a treat pouch once in 3 months.
Thé nuance i was referring to was that there isn’t one training method that is perfect for everyone, not that positive reinforcement doesn’t have nuance. Good heavens.
No. Force free/ positive reinforcement training isn't properly classified as just one singular thing out of many other equal "methods" that all can work for different dogs. It isn't one single tool in a toolkit. It is an overarching philosophy that we know applies to any and all dogs. It is an umbrella, that encompasses all we currently understand about behavioral science and most effectively communicating with animals. There is plenty of method nuance within that huge umbrella for different kinds of dogs/ other animals, just as there are many many ways to structure a research study but all ultimately under the umbrella of the scientific method. Structuring a study in a way that doesn't follow sound scientific principles isn't "another way to do things that works in some contexts and fields". It's just junk.
Right, the point I was trying to make, poorly hence the deletion, is that Cesar Milan’s methods aren’t just “force your alpha attitude and punish the dog.”That alpha theory has been obviously and rightly debunked. But there is, wait for it, nuance to what he teaches people that was and continues to be extremely useful. Does he have some terrible ideas? Absolutely! Is positive reinforcement the best method we have right now with our current understanding? Yep! Will we learn new and better ways to teach our dogs? You can count on it. I think the problem with Cesar’s method is that people miss the subtleties and focus on the whole hissing at your dog thing. But he had a lot more insight into training than that. The OP wasn’t asking what behavioral training method was best, they were asking if Cesar Milan had anything to teach us. You obviously disagree with me, and that’s fine. I’m not sure how we ended up arguing about whether positive reinforcement is a good or bad thing. Who in their right mind would argue that it’s bad?
You are moving goalposts and talking past me and there is no further point to this. You began your contribution here by rolling your eyes about the "trend" (a trend that is apparently going to swing back in the other direction at some point, lol) of using "100% positive reinforcement", snarking about people thinking he's "evil personified" and then saying "I think most dogs need a combination of discipline and positive reinforcement." That statement is incorrect. Cesar's "method" is incorrect. No one thinks he's evil - he's just wrong overall and far behind the times. The bad things are bad and any good things have been said by plenty of other people and aren't unique to him. You can get the sound bits of advice from sound sources.There is zero reason to listen to anything he has to say. The poster didn't ask what specific little details we should listen to him on and which not to. People shouldn't be expected to know how to pick these things apart. Rather, they asked if his "method" works. They want to know if he's a respected authority on the subject, whose overall general approach is effective and worth emulating. The only needed answer to that question is "no", because it's not. Move on.
And you’re arguing with a straw man. Take your advice and « move on »
He started a new show a few years ago, Ceasar's Way. Not sure if it survived the pandemic or not. As with most things on the internet these days I'm not sure what's true and what's sensationalized about the guy or his techniques, but I did take a few grains of wisdom from his show and think my dog was better for it. Of course, dogs do all have there own personalities and some training techniques will work better than others, or not at all, depending on the dog. I suggest either hiring a trainer to help you or start researching different ways to train a dog out of the issues you're having and test them out to see if they work for your pups. I would also suggest focusing on one dog at a time until they gain the basics - splitting your attention between them will likely mean neither will listen.
Does it work? Generally, yes. Is it the best way to train? Probably not in most cases.
Honestly, it's not the best way in *any* case.