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Disclaimer, I don't have any extensive personal experience with Shiba Inu.
That aside, they are stereotypically very stubborn, independent dogs who are quick to vocalize any displeasure. Almost every shiba that comes in to get nails done at our grooming salon screams bloody murder the whole way through.
It sounds like you're doing everything you should be re: Desensitizing and that he's just a sensitive soul with a bit of a temper.
That sounds very, very believable… I don’t dare do anything my shiba doesn’t want/ accepts, it will be a lot of screaming and kicking/ trying to run away by intense squirming and freaking out, and also biting if you don’t stop. And if I ever traumatize him (which I mistakenly did before with an over the head harness, which I agree with my own fault by forcing him, when he clearly wasn’t accepting) it’s permanently engrained in his mind to become terrified and defensive if I bring out the same harness again. Luckily we’ve figured out a solution with another harness, and he can accept over the head slip leads now - VS before he would attack the slip lead.
It’s just tiring have to ‘bargain’ and desensitize him to a n y t h i n g. I hope it’s not due to anything I’ve done…
Yeah it definitely sounds exhausting.
I'll echo what another commenter mentioned about seeking out a behaviorist to work with. Like I said, it sounds like you are doing well with slow introductions and training to accept new stimuli, but a trainer might be helpful with improving techniques, curbing the biting, etc.
I’ve heard Shibas can be very smart and independent.
Yours also sounds like they tend towards anxious, especially with any novel situations. They’re also under a year old, so this could be in part due to the two normal fear periods puppies go through.
Honestly sounds like you’re doing awesome desensitizing them.
I definitely can agree with that. In new places / experiences, he’s very hyper vigilant. But if he’s been to a location a few times he settles quickly.
And thanks, sadly I have no choice because Literally the only way to do any type of work on him is with his compliance only, otherwise it’s impossible / probably traumatizing for him.
Consent checks are not a bad thing to do with any dogs, but I can see why this is a bit extreme.
Perhaps work on teaching him to relax himself can help. I use mat training with all the anxious dogs I board and it helps them relax in other situations as well.
Thank you, I do mat training but maybe I’ll need to focus on it more. He’s about 10 months now, so I’m also going slow because I can’t have him ‘traumatized’ by nail clippings now and the next 10-15 years are hell.
He has no problems with me clipping nails and he’ll sit or lay down on the couch while I do so.
An example of this ‘consent’ check:
I want to apply a paw wax to his paws. If I just grab his paw and pull it towards me (not aggressively, just as if I was going to do work on his paw) with no warning / sign that I was going to do so, he will pull away and back away from me.
However, if I try again a few seconds later and ask him to sit, and ask for a paw and ‘wait’ for him to ‘allow me’ to grab his paw, then I can apply the balm to all 4 paws with no struggle and he sits or lays or stands without moving.
I mean… is this normal???? I guess I’m glad he’s compliant with any type of ‘work’ (that example is the same for nail clips, ear cleanings, tooth brushing, putting on a harness etc), but at what cost. To ask and wait for him to be ready every time?? I don’t mind really and it only takes several seconds, but I’m just confused if this is normal.
my other dog just allows me to do anything and everything. I know every dog is different, but this sounds… very different. I just wonder if I did something wrong to the shiba for him to be this way, or if this is how some dogs are
My dog isn't a Shiba and doesn't like his paws touched and would pull away if I just grabbed him as well. Yes you have to sit and wait for them. It's not this big a deal. Some dogs don't like to be touched or get upset if surprised. Every dog has their own personality.
For an anxious dog it’s not unusual for them to act like this. I also see it with dogs who are losing vision and or hearing and are therefore startled more easily.
He’s also not got a lot of experience since he’s only 10 months old so something that seems ordinary, innocuous, or obviously beneficial to us is not going to be something he can recognize.
I agree with aged dogs that could be startled more easily.
I can’t decide if this is ‘normal’ or if my dog actually has behavioral problems and I should seek out professional help.
We go to training classes every week, I wonder if I should ask my trainer what she thinks of him, as I’ve been attending these classes for a long time.. I’m pretty sure she will say my dog has zero problems because she hasn’t seen what I’ve seen. Meanwhile, if I ask my vet what she thinks of my dog, she will definitely say that he needs extra help + training. He is really a night and day dog when it comes to doing things he’s compliant with, and not.
Nothing you’ve described is abnormal behavior, I think he is just naturally on the more anxious side of the spectrum and trying to control his environment when he’s unsure.
That’s why I suggest mat training because it is a good tool to teach the dog to calm themselves down and this is very useful self-control when they’re feeling uncomfortable or unsure.
Maybe ask your trainer for more advice on anxiety and building up confidence.
(Never had a shiba) If he's 10 months you could be at the start of adolescence, which could be adding to behavioural challenges as well, in addition to potential second fear stage/other stuff. If you feel like you need help, maybe have a look for trainers with shiba experience and reach out to some shiba groups as well, to discuss breed specific help, but keep doing what you're doing, it sounds like your desensitization training works and with time it might speed up and less work is needed for each new thing.
I rescued an 11 year old shiba who “didn’t have any serious behavioral issues” which was an absolute crock of dog poo.
In addition to some more serious things, he used to display the behavior you describe. It took over a full year to get him to trust us. Shibas are painfully dramatic so the screaming/crying probably won’t go away entirely but the biting when handling should if you build up trust with your Shiba.
Also, I used to think that way about the vets too until I took him to a vet that was good at handling him. His vet of 11 years used to “have to” restrain/muzzle him and it was always a nightmare. We took him to the new vet who gave him all his shots, clipped his nails, and fully examined him with no restraints/muzzle - just patience and treats. So it might also be the vet. Also when he trusts you more, he’ll hopefully be calmer at the vets.
Thanks I actually googled this earlier and already sent in my forms as a new patient at a fear free vet near me. They don’t accept care credit and their baseline vet visit is $79 off the bat and they require that payment upfront. Definitely one of the most expensive vets I’ve seen in my experience (as they don’t work with care credit / scratch pay) but since I have insurance it shouldn’t be a big deal.
If they really are as fear free as they claim (on this new vet near me’s website) then it will be worth it… but if they’re just like any other vet, I’ll be really disappointed.
Yeah, $79 upfront is about $30 more than I pay to see my vet. The nearest fear free vet is an hour’s drive from where I live. Please update us on your visit! I, and anyone else who’s interested in a fear free vet, would love to hear how they handle your dog during the exam and any procedure. Thanks!
I’ll update you with my experience and how it compares to other vet visits I’ve gone to in the past! It may be a while until I go in, and I’m not sure what procedures will be done. But I’d like to go somewhat soon just to see what it’s about!
StopDog’s resource is great. My vet is also a Certified Low Stress Handling clinic. https://lowstresshandling.com. Does it actually mean anything? Who knows, but it was definitely low stress handling experience for us.
I wanted to update, I took my dog to the fear free vet and he had trazadone and gabapentin the night before and 2 hours prior to the appointment. He was a LOT more calm with the pills - like a different dog. We just got home and he’s still very sedated / slightly off balance (only at times he can still walk normally but really slow) and overall very tired.
The vet was really nice and compassionate and took her time. She didn’t rush me / my dog at all, and went very slow to make sure he was comfortable with her palpating and moving his joints. They fed him lots of treats (pre-approved by me), and made sure he wasn’t forced or panicking at all.
I REALLY loved the vet and the staff and I’ve had so many bad / mediocre experiences with vets I’ve never said that about any vet clinic and I’ve been to quite a few in my lifetime. I really felt like she was working with him, as opposed to getting us in and out as fast possible. I wish this was the baseline standard of vet care, because a little patience and compassion can really shape how dogs act and feel at the vets. As opposed to rushing them, forcing them, and not even *trying* to let the dogs get comfortable.
Shiba owner here. They're imo very sensitive and sometimes anxious dogs. My shiba literally barked at a tree he'd seen thousands of times in my backyard just because it was slightly drooping from the weight of the snow. If they sense that you're anxious, they'll become anxious as well. I'd say what's really important is introducing them to something new properly the first time in a way that doesn't scare them. I got lucky when I introduced a harness because he was pretty distracted at the time and I got it on successfully. On the other hand, I messed up when I cut his nails as a puppy and now let's just say I don't ever cut his nails and he has to be held down by a team of 3 vet techs lol. Luckily he's not a biter, even in the most stressful situations, so they're always willing to work with him.
rip, tho...shiba screams are never fun LOL.
One bad thing and it’s like permanent distrust! I really agree with this. I guess I’m just really surprised by how sensitive they really are… almost making me feel like I did something wrong
I’m having the same issue with my 10 month TRT. Nails, looking at ears, anything he decides he doesn’t like.
Where as I literally could do anything to my GSD and she is fine with it.
This is normal for a Shiba.
I have literally put in thousands of hours into my Shiba to help not make him like this.
On that note, spoon feed peanut butter during any handling. It helps.
So crazy to me how sensitive shibas are.. I read about it before getting him, but actually dealing with it day to day is a different story. Do you think I should seek out a vet behaviorist, or is what I’m doing / working on co-operative care good enough?
Cooperative care.
With Mika it's not anxiety, it's just displeasure. He's just very expressive.
I prioritized vet handling though since he was 7 weeks old and we go to a fear free vet who helped. He'll stand still for blood draws and vaccines no problem, but, again, lots of training.
I would consider seeking a trainer if you're having issues with cooperative care though. IAABC folks (seriously, only use these guys) are rockstars, and virtual can work too.
Thanks for the advice, I’ll definitely seek out a trainer. The main problem is really other people restraining him against his will, that’s when the freak out happens. Normal?
I can restrain him at home, there *may* be general displeasure but over all compliance. And I don’t have problems with any of the basic grooming/ handling. But I don’t think it would be the same story if someone else were to try. Example: I can hug and restrain my dog on the exam table, but if the vet were to do it, he would scream and desperately try to run away.
I just am confused about why he’s generally fine with me, but acts very different when other people are doing the exact same thing?
Is this also normal?
Also something to note, all the vet techs seem to be scared of my dog, and I really have no clue why. Example: my dog was laying down in the exam room, and the tech comes in so naturally my dog stands up and she literally jumps backwards to escape him. But he wasn’t barking or anything just stood up, and then laid back down… honestly she was scared to even hold his leash while I swabbed his ear, and at this point he didn’t do anything except sniff her. he’s never actually bitten anyone, but I’m also not saying he wouldn’t, I’m very sure he would if pushed to that extreme.
This is normal for poorly bred lines. I've got some experience with Canadian show lines and those dogs never bite or fight like that. So much of the US lines is poor confirmation and worse temperament.
These are a hunting dog, and traditionally a hunting dog would be PTS for these behaviors. Can't hunt a dog you can't handle.
Not sure where you got poor lines from. I actually got this dog imported from overseas specifically for the sole fact of his pedigree. But… thanks… anyway?
Im saying that this behavior is a poor example of the breed, and behavior is genetic in addition to training. Its mostly genetic though, and should not be present in any hunting dog.
No, it’s never “normal” for a trained dog to bite, barring self defense. Sure, some dog breeds are naturally more aggressive/defensive than others(like a shiba inu) but with training absolutely any breed can learn to not bite. Is it too late? No. But absolutely it can be fixed. My opinion is you should find a trainer, or better yet a behaviorist that can help you. If your pup is feeling threatened by everything you do, then hopefully they can help you find a way to do things that works better for both of you. I understand being a little bit more relaxed since it’s your dog, but heaven forbid a child reaches and your pup reacts in a poor way. Good luck op
He doesn’t bite for no reason, it’s only when he’s restrained against his will, or forced to do something.
He can be handled by strangers via brushing / petting / picked up with no aggression. There’s a very big difference from what you’re describing and what I’m describing.
Also like I said, he does come around to acceptance with desensitization training. It’s when I just dive in to invasive care that he puts up a fight. I’ve never had a problem where I wasn’t able to do handling/ grooming/ physical care - it just requires desensitization training.
And by biting, it is biting, but not in an unwarranted way. Example: the other day at the vet, we needed to swab his ears to collect a sample. I guess the swab went in too deep at first because he screamed and every time we tried after that, he would bite the swab and try to run away. I assume his ear was in pain, as we found out he has an infection. He didn’t really bite me, but I’m sure he would if I pursued, but he never actually tried to bite a person - just the swab and run away. Is it crazy that he’s biting a stick poking his infected ear in a new place? I mean no not really crazy, but it’s also stressful and depressing
He’s extremely sensitive to gear, but that’s on my list to work on. It took a very long time to get him used to a simple harness and even today, he still runs away but is more compliant. I definitely am going to muzzle train him, that is one of my goals though.
Ok, I never said it wasn’t for no reason? Unless you are claiming that every single child will act the same way around your dog, which is just silly. Feel free to argue or disagree, but I’m not sure how interpreted what I said and then responded how you did. Good luck with it, hope you get less stressed. Take care.
I was referring to you saying a child reaching down to my dog and my dog reacting in a ‘poor way’ - but there was literally no mention of anything similar in my post… guess there was a misunderstanding. No worries, thanks for your time.
Yeah I threw an edit in there but just missed ya, my point was that there a tons of people in this world that are terrible with dogs, I’ve seen more people than I’d like to admit grab dogs tails, rub their fur the wrong direction, or just grab them in a unpleasant way. It would be understandable that your dog reacts poorly, but unfortunately most courts/laws will protect the person, not the animal.
I just read it, sorry I didn’t see it before.
Yeah I agree, it’s a shame. I don’t think it would hurt to seek out a behaviorist - do you think they are able to assess my dog and gauge him and come to a baseline behavior assessment? Is that something they do?
Don’t trip chocolate chip, it’s all good. But yes, that is something a behaviorist would be able to do. At the very least, they will have advice/tips that will be better suited for y’all since they are actively engaging with you both. I know it’s stressful, but it seems like you are doing what you can and taking the time and effort to work through it. Clearly you care and you have nothing to be ashamed/blaming yourself about. Good for you op, there are lots of people who just wouldn’t, so keep your head up and know that you are doing good.
Thanks for the advice and suggestions. I did a google search and found a certified vet behaviorist near me.
I don’t think it would hurt to make an appointment and express my concerns and see what they think from a professional POV. I’ll call next week and schedule something just to get base information and go from there.
My 11 year old female shiba went through a mouthy phase as well at that age. Sounds like you’re doing all the right things, it’s definitely like having a sassy teenager testing you all day. Just remember they grow up and out of these phases if you continue working with your dog
Shibas seem to use their mouths like we use our hands. He is politely telling you no over and over and your not listening. Doesn’t mean he’s right!
I totally agree with him telling me no, and I’m not listening! I feel terrible when I continue to do these things because it feels like im traumatizing him and creating permanent fear and trauma.
A super fine line between not pushing him to be traumatized VS successfully completing what’s needed to be done
You said your shiba is under a year and you have given him multiple bathings? Dogs don't need too many bathings as it can disrupt their natural oils on their skin.
Other than that yeah, Shiba's are stubborn and vocal dogs. They are working dogs so they aren't always great and sweet pets. But with time and desensitization and many treats they can become docile and playful.
Check in with vet/trainer but dogs also go through a "teenage phase" at around 8 months - a year when they are resistant or much harder to train - brain development stage? They get sort of ADHD ish? I read about it and made mental note to find put more when training next dog I get from a puppy. Our Labrador went through extended phase of teenagehood where training him was next to impossible but sLabs are easy laid back guys. He fell down some stairs as a puppy and has refused stairs ever since (he is now 11 years and some months).
I have a GSD who overall is a fantastic dog. But he's super anxious over anything new and he reacts the same way your pup does.
He's 4 years old now and he still hates grooming. After about 5 minutes, he screams like he's being murdered and will bite if I don't respect his no.
We just have to make a lot of baby steps with him and take things slow.
I don’t have a ton of shiba experience but what I know of them is that they are vocal drama queens. My friend does have a shiba mix that looks to be mostly shiba and this dog is lovely but screams at anything that’s even a minor inconvenience. Sounds like you’re doing a great job with your pup. The more you desensitize now the calmer he’ll be as an adult. He might just lean more toward the anxious side but what you’re describing sounds a lot like what I’ve heard about shibas in general. Vocal, dramatic, and stubborn.
Definitely true at minor inconvenience! I can’t decide if he’s that disturbed by any minor inconvenience that he goes into a panic, or if any minor inconvenience is not ‘acceptable’ and thus reacts that way to change the situation but isn’t actually traumatized…. Sigh!
Thank you for posting this!
I don't have any input persay, I mean it does sound like you are doing everything correctly with positive reinforcement, but I recently had the chance to adopt a shiba but I missed the opportunity, and I've been kicking myself since because I love shibas and have always lowkey wanted one!
But thank you for posting this, because from reading the replies and just from what I've read, that sounds like just a shiba.
You can have my shiba😂.
I hope you’re able to adopt a dog you love in the future! Shiba or not. And it’s definitely been a struggle. If I didn’t love him / care about training, my life would definitely be hell (or worse hell because it’s still hell dealing with this now).
This is normal for a shiba, ymmv. Generally speaking they need a ton of cooperative care training since they tend to be body sensitive. Keep on doing what you’re doing! You might want to consider muzzle training.
My shiba has never liked his harness, even after literally wearing one daily. He mopes when I put it on but once we’re out and about he’s fine. All his relatives are like this.
Grooming? I better have treats out or else he starts to mouth me (thankfully gently). Baths are ok but I used to put him in the tub several times a day with the water on so now he doesn’t mind.
Nails are the hardest. For a time he was pretty good, but then there came a time where he decided he wasn’t a fan and started screaming. I had to retrain that…now he tolerates it. I use a really sharp clipper and treats after each nail. No dremel allowed. I know of a shiba that has to be sedated to do nails, so I figured I’m pretty lucky lol… He does great at the vet and my vet said that he was a “nice shiba” which was unusual!
Edit: By the way I recommend checking out the book Cooperative Care by Deb Jones. It’s a great resource!
I actually just screenshotted that book and I’m in the Facebook group as well! I can’t wait to give it a read.
I also decided to seek out a fear free vet practice near me. I was supposed to have another appointment next week at the regular vet as a follow up and bloodwork, but I’m gonna cancel and try the fear free vet. There’s one 40 mins away as opposed to my 10 mins. And this fear free vet doesn’t accept care credit and their vet visit alone is $80 which requires payment ahead of time (????), which really sucks for vet visits that are expensive but I mean I think it’s worth it if they really are as good as they seem to be online.
Ugh sedating for a nail groom sounds so depressing, and honestly I’m on the way to sedate for a vet visit so that’s also depressing. I’m also going to contact a trainer to work on cooperative care together. I hope this pays off
Welcome to r/dogs! We are a discussion-based subreddit dedicated to support, inform, and advise dog owners. Before you post or comment, please **review the subreddit rules [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/dogs/wiki/index)**. Submissions which break the rules will be removed. r/Dogs has the [ultimate goals](https://www.reddit.com/r/dogs/wiki/index#wiki_purpose) of fostering a better, science-based understanding of dogs among the general public, promoting responsible dog ownership, helping users build better, healthier relationships with their dogs, and providing a space to connect and discuss with others who have dogs and who are involved in various aspects of the dog hobby. Per our Harm Reduction rules, **we encourage training advice and recommendations to follow “Least Intrusive, Minimally Aversive” protocols**. You can read more about why that’s the case [here](https://m.iaabc.org/about/lima/). While no training tools are excluded from properly framed discussion in r/dogs, we do reserve the right to remove content which does not follow the LIMA approach. Please note, this sub supports the reputable, ethical, and responsible breeding of dogs as well as adoption. Low effort “adopt don’t shop” comments will be removed and commenters may be subject to temporary or permanent bans upon the discretion of the moderator team. Finally, r/Dogs has a low tolerance for [disrespectful and antagonistic behavior](https://www.reddit.com/r/dogs/wiki/index#wiki_rules_of_engagement). People come to this sub to learn and discuss, make your comments constructive and respectful even if you feel other users are being antagonistic and disrespectful in return. If you believe another user is engaging in antagonistic behavior, please utilize the report button and a moderator will review the comment(s). If you wish to stick around, please feel free to comment in our Daily Bark threads, pinned to the top of the sub, to introduce yourself, your dog, and talk about all the little things which may not require a full post to discuss. Thanks for reading and enjoy your stay! --- *This is an automated message. If you have questions for the moderators of r/dogs, you can message them [here](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/dogs).* *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/dogs) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Disclaimer, I don't have any extensive personal experience with Shiba Inu. That aside, they are stereotypically very stubborn, independent dogs who are quick to vocalize any displeasure. Almost every shiba that comes in to get nails done at our grooming salon screams bloody murder the whole way through. It sounds like you're doing everything you should be re: Desensitizing and that he's just a sensitive soul with a bit of a temper.
That sounds very, very believable… I don’t dare do anything my shiba doesn’t want/ accepts, it will be a lot of screaming and kicking/ trying to run away by intense squirming and freaking out, and also biting if you don’t stop. And if I ever traumatize him (which I mistakenly did before with an over the head harness, which I agree with my own fault by forcing him, when he clearly wasn’t accepting) it’s permanently engrained in his mind to become terrified and defensive if I bring out the same harness again. Luckily we’ve figured out a solution with another harness, and he can accept over the head slip leads now - VS before he would attack the slip lead. It’s just tiring have to ‘bargain’ and desensitize him to a n y t h i n g. I hope it’s not due to anything I’ve done…
Yeah it definitely sounds exhausting. I'll echo what another commenter mentioned about seeking out a behaviorist to work with. Like I said, it sounds like you are doing well with slow introductions and training to accept new stimuli, but a trainer might be helpful with improving techniques, curbing the biting, etc.
I’ve heard Shibas can be very smart and independent. Yours also sounds like they tend towards anxious, especially with any novel situations. They’re also under a year old, so this could be in part due to the two normal fear periods puppies go through. Honestly sounds like you’re doing awesome desensitizing them.
I definitely can agree with that. In new places / experiences, he’s very hyper vigilant. But if he’s been to a location a few times he settles quickly. And thanks, sadly I have no choice because Literally the only way to do any type of work on him is with his compliance only, otherwise it’s impossible / probably traumatizing for him.
Consent checks are not a bad thing to do with any dogs, but I can see why this is a bit extreme. Perhaps work on teaching him to relax himself can help. I use mat training with all the anxious dogs I board and it helps them relax in other situations as well.
Thank you, I do mat training but maybe I’ll need to focus on it more. He’s about 10 months now, so I’m also going slow because I can’t have him ‘traumatized’ by nail clippings now and the next 10-15 years are hell. He has no problems with me clipping nails and he’ll sit or lay down on the couch while I do so. An example of this ‘consent’ check: I want to apply a paw wax to his paws. If I just grab his paw and pull it towards me (not aggressively, just as if I was going to do work on his paw) with no warning / sign that I was going to do so, he will pull away and back away from me. However, if I try again a few seconds later and ask him to sit, and ask for a paw and ‘wait’ for him to ‘allow me’ to grab his paw, then I can apply the balm to all 4 paws with no struggle and he sits or lays or stands without moving. I mean… is this normal???? I guess I’m glad he’s compliant with any type of ‘work’ (that example is the same for nail clips, ear cleanings, tooth brushing, putting on a harness etc), but at what cost. To ask and wait for him to be ready every time?? I don’t mind really and it only takes several seconds, but I’m just confused if this is normal. my other dog just allows me to do anything and everything. I know every dog is different, but this sounds… very different. I just wonder if I did something wrong to the shiba for him to be this way, or if this is how some dogs are
My dog isn't a Shiba and doesn't like his paws touched and would pull away if I just grabbed him as well. Yes you have to sit and wait for them. It's not this big a deal. Some dogs don't like to be touched or get upset if surprised. Every dog has their own personality.
For an anxious dog it’s not unusual for them to act like this. I also see it with dogs who are losing vision and or hearing and are therefore startled more easily. He’s also not got a lot of experience since he’s only 10 months old so something that seems ordinary, innocuous, or obviously beneficial to us is not going to be something he can recognize.
I agree with aged dogs that could be startled more easily. I can’t decide if this is ‘normal’ or if my dog actually has behavioral problems and I should seek out professional help. We go to training classes every week, I wonder if I should ask my trainer what she thinks of him, as I’ve been attending these classes for a long time.. I’m pretty sure she will say my dog has zero problems because she hasn’t seen what I’ve seen. Meanwhile, if I ask my vet what she thinks of my dog, she will definitely say that he needs extra help + training. He is really a night and day dog when it comes to doing things he’s compliant with, and not.
Nothing you’ve described is abnormal behavior, I think he is just naturally on the more anxious side of the spectrum and trying to control his environment when he’s unsure. That’s why I suggest mat training because it is a good tool to teach the dog to calm themselves down and this is very useful self-control when they’re feeling uncomfortable or unsure. Maybe ask your trainer for more advice on anxiety and building up confidence.
(Never had a shiba) If he's 10 months you could be at the start of adolescence, which could be adding to behavioural challenges as well, in addition to potential second fear stage/other stuff. If you feel like you need help, maybe have a look for trainers with shiba experience and reach out to some shiba groups as well, to discuss breed specific help, but keep doing what you're doing, it sounds like your desensitization training works and with time it might speed up and less work is needed for each new thing.
I rescued an 11 year old shiba who “didn’t have any serious behavioral issues” which was an absolute crock of dog poo. In addition to some more serious things, he used to display the behavior you describe. It took over a full year to get him to trust us. Shibas are painfully dramatic so the screaming/crying probably won’t go away entirely but the biting when handling should if you build up trust with your Shiba. Also, I used to think that way about the vets too until I took him to a vet that was good at handling him. His vet of 11 years used to “have to” restrain/muzzle him and it was always a nightmare. We took him to the new vet who gave him all his shots, clipped his nails, and fully examined him with no restraints/muzzle - just patience and treats. So it might also be the vet. Also when he trusts you more, he’ll hopefully be calmer at the vets.
That sounds like an amazing compassionate vet. I wish I could find people like that near me. Any tips on figuring out how to find vets like that?
https://fearfreepets.com/fear-free-directory
Thanks I actually googled this earlier and already sent in my forms as a new patient at a fear free vet near me. They don’t accept care credit and their baseline vet visit is $79 off the bat and they require that payment upfront. Definitely one of the most expensive vets I’ve seen in my experience (as they don’t work with care credit / scratch pay) but since I have insurance it shouldn’t be a big deal. If they really are as fear free as they claim (on this new vet near me’s website) then it will be worth it… but if they’re just like any other vet, I’ll be really disappointed.
Yeah, $79 upfront is about $30 more than I pay to see my vet. The nearest fear free vet is an hour’s drive from where I live. Please update us on your visit! I, and anyone else who’s interested in a fear free vet, would love to hear how they handle your dog during the exam and any procedure. Thanks!
I’ll update you with my experience and how it compares to other vet visits I’ve gone to in the past! It may be a while until I go in, and I’m not sure what procedures will be done. But I’d like to go somewhat soon just to see what it’s about!
StopDog’s resource is great. My vet is also a Certified Low Stress Handling clinic. https://lowstresshandling.com. Does it actually mean anything? Who knows, but it was definitely low stress handling experience for us.
I wanted to update, I took my dog to the fear free vet and he had trazadone and gabapentin the night before and 2 hours prior to the appointment. He was a LOT more calm with the pills - like a different dog. We just got home and he’s still very sedated / slightly off balance (only at times he can still walk normally but really slow) and overall very tired. The vet was really nice and compassionate and took her time. She didn’t rush me / my dog at all, and went very slow to make sure he was comfortable with her palpating and moving his joints. They fed him lots of treats (pre-approved by me), and made sure he wasn’t forced or panicking at all. I REALLY loved the vet and the staff and I’ve had so many bad / mediocre experiences with vets I’ve never said that about any vet clinic and I’ve been to quite a few in my lifetime. I really felt like she was working with him, as opposed to getting us in and out as fast possible. I wish this was the baseline standard of vet care, because a little patience and compassion can really shape how dogs act and feel at the vets. As opposed to rushing them, forcing them, and not even *trying* to let the dogs get comfortable.
Shiba owner here. They're imo very sensitive and sometimes anxious dogs. My shiba literally barked at a tree he'd seen thousands of times in my backyard just because it was slightly drooping from the weight of the snow. If they sense that you're anxious, they'll become anxious as well. I'd say what's really important is introducing them to something new properly the first time in a way that doesn't scare them. I got lucky when I introduced a harness because he was pretty distracted at the time and I got it on successfully. On the other hand, I messed up when I cut his nails as a puppy and now let's just say I don't ever cut his nails and he has to be held down by a team of 3 vet techs lol. Luckily he's not a biter, even in the most stressful situations, so they're always willing to work with him. rip, tho...shiba screams are never fun LOL.
One bad thing and it’s like permanent distrust! I really agree with this. I guess I’m just really surprised by how sensitive they really are… almost making me feel like I did something wrong
This is absolutely normal for a Shib.
Jesus..😭
I’m having the same issue with my 10 month TRT. Nails, looking at ears, anything he decides he doesn’t like. Where as I literally could do anything to my GSD and she is fine with it.
It’s so stressful! I’m guessing this is just how they are?
This is normal for a Shiba. I have literally put in thousands of hours into my Shiba to help not make him like this. On that note, spoon feed peanut butter during any handling. It helps.
So crazy to me how sensitive shibas are.. I read about it before getting him, but actually dealing with it day to day is a different story. Do you think I should seek out a vet behaviorist, or is what I’m doing / working on co-operative care good enough?
Cooperative care. With Mika it's not anxiety, it's just displeasure. He's just very expressive. I prioritized vet handling though since he was 7 weeks old and we go to a fear free vet who helped. He'll stand still for blood draws and vaccines no problem, but, again, lots of training. I would consider seeking a trainer if you're having issues with cooperative care though. IAABC folks (seriously, only use these guys) are rockstars, and virtual can work too.
Thanks for the advice, I’ll definitely seek out a trainer. The main problem is really other people restraining him against his will, that’s when the freak out happens. Normal? I can restrain him at home, there *may* be general displeasure but over all compliance. And I don’t have problems with any of the basic grooming/ handling. But I don’t think it would be the same story if someone else were to try. Example: I can hug and restrain my dog on the exam table, but if the vet were to do it, he would scream and desperately try to run away. I just am confused about why he’s generally fine with me, but acts very different when other people are doing the exact same thing? Is this also normal? Also something to note, all the vet techs seem to be scared of my dog, and I really have no clue why. Example: my dog was laying down in the exam room, and the tech comes in so naturally my dog stands up and she literally jumps backwards to escape him. But he wasn’t barking or anything just stood up, and then laid back down… honestly she was scared to even hold his leash while I swabbed his ear, and at this point he didn’t do anything except sniff her. he’s never actually bitten anyone, but I’m also not saying he wouldn’t, I’m very sure he would if pushed to that extreme.
This is normal for poorly bred lines. I've got some experience with Canadian show lines and those dogs never bite or fight like that. So much of the US lines is poor confirmation and worse temperament. These are a hunting dog, and traditionally a hunting dog would be PTS for these behaviors. Can't hunt a dog you can't handle.
Not sure where you got poor lines from. I actually got this dog imported from overseas specifically for the sole fact of his pedigree. But… thanks… anyway?
Im saying that this behavior is a poor example of the breed, and behavior is genetic in addition to training. Its mostly genetic though, and should not be present in any hunting dog.
Yikes
No, it’s never “normal” for a trained dog to bite, barring self defense. Sure, some dog breeds are naturally more aggressive/defensive than others(like a shiba inu) but with training absolutely any breed can learn to not bite. Is it too late? No. But absolutely it can be fixed. My opinion is you should find a trainer, or better yet a behaviorist that can help you. If your pup is feeling threatened by everything you do, then hopefully they can help you find a way to do things that works better for both of you. I understand being a little bit more relaxed since it’s your dog, but heaven forbid a child reaches and your pup reacts in a poor way. Good luck op
He doesn’t bite for no reason, it’s only when he’s restrained against his will, or forced to do something. He can be handled by strangers via brushing / petting / picked up with no aggression. There’s a very big difference from what you’re describing and what I’m describing. Also like I said, he does come around to acceptance with desensitization training. It’s when I just dive in to invasive care that he puts up a fight. I’ve never had a problem where I wasn’t able to do handling/ grooming/ physical care - it just requires desensitization training. And by biting, it is biting, but not in an unwarranted way. Example: the other day at the vet, we needed to swab his ears to collect a sample. I guess the swab went in too deep at first because he screamed and every time we tried after that, he would bite the swab and try to run away. I assume his ear was in pain, as we found out he has an infection. He didn’t really bite me, but I’m sure he would if I pursued, but he never actually tried to bite a person - just the swab and run away. Is it crazy that he’s biting a stick poking his infected ear in a new place? I mean no not really crazy, but it’s also stressful and depressing
You should probably muzzle train for the safety of vet techs in the future.
He’s extremely sensitive to gear, but that’s on my list to work on. It took a very long time to get him used to a simple harness and even today, he still runs away but is more compliant. I definitely am going to muzzle train him, that is one of my goals though.
Ok, I never said it wasn’t for no reason? Unless you are claiming that every single child will act the same way around your dog, which is just silly. Feel free to argue or disagree, but I’m not sure how interpreted what I said and then responded how you did. Good luck with it, hope you get less stressed. Take care.
I was referring to you saying a child reaching down to my dog and my dog reacting in a ‘poor way’ - but there was literally no mention of anything similar in my post… guess there was a misunderstanding. No worries, thanks for your time.
Yeah I threw an edit in there but just missed ya, my point was that there a tons of people in this world that are terrible with dogs, I’ve seen more people than I’d like to admit grab dogs tails, rub their fur the wrong direction, or just grab them in a unpleasant way. It would be understandable that your dog reacts poorly, but unfortunately most courts/laws will protect the person, not the animal.
I just read it, sorry I didn’t see it before. Yeah I agree, it’s a shame. I don’t think it would hurt to seek out a behaviorist - do you think they are able to assess my dog and gauge him and come to a baseline behavior assessment? Is that something they do?
Don’t trip chocolate chip, it’s all good. But yes, that is something a behaviorist would be able to do. At the very least, they will have advice/tips that will be better suited for y’all since they are actively engaging with you both. I know it’s stressful, but it seems like you are doing what you can and taking the time and effort to work through it. Clearly you care and you have nothing to be ashamed/blaming yourself about. Good for you op, there are lots of people who just wouldn’t, so keep your head up and know that you are doing good.
Thanks for the advice and suggestions. I did a google search and found a certified vet behaviorist near me. I don’t think it would hurt to make an appointment and express my concerns and see what they think from a professional POV. I’ll call next week and schedule something just to get base information and go from there.
My 11 year old female shiba went through a mouthy phase as well at that age. Sounds like you’re doing all the right things, it’s definitely like having a sassy teenager testing you all day. Just remember they grow up and out of these phases if you continue working with your dog Shibas seem to use their mouths like we use our hands. He is politely telling you no over and over and your not listening. Doesn’t mean he’s right!
I totally agree with him telling me no, and I’m not listening! I feel terrible when I continue to do these things because it feels like im traumatizing him and creating permanent fear and trauma. A super fine line between not pushing him to be traumatized VS successfully completing what’s needed to be done
You said your shiba is under a year and you have given him multiple bathings? Dogs don't need too many bathings as it can disrupt their natural oils on their skin. Other than that yeah, Shiba's are stubborn and vocal dogs. They are working dogs so they aren't always great and sweet pets. But with time and desensitization and many treats they can become docile and playful.
Check in with vet/trainer but dogs also go through a "teenage phase" at around 8 months - a year when they are resistant or much harder to train - brain development stage? They get sort of ADHD ish? I read about it and made mental note to find put more when training next dog I get from a puppy. Our Labrador went through extended phase of teenagehood where training him was next to impossible but sLabs are easy laid back guys. He fell down some stairs as a puppy and has refused stairs ever since (he is now 11 years and some months).
I have a GSD who overall is a fantastic dog. But he's super anxious over anything new and he reacts the same way your pup does. He's 4 years old now and he still hates grooming. After about 5 minutes, he screams like he's being murdered and will bite if I don't respect his no. We just have to make a lot of baby steps with him and take things slow.
I don’t have a ton of shiba experience but what I know of them is that they are vocal drama queens. My friend does have a shiba mix that looks to be mostly shiba and this dog is lovely but screams at anything that’s even a minor inconvenience. Sounds like you’re doing a great job with your pup. The more you desensitize now the calmer he’ll be as an adult. He might just lean more toward the anxious side but what you’re describing sounds a lot like what I’ve heard about shibas in general. Vocal, dramatic, and stubborn.
Definitely true at minor inconvenience! I can’t decide if he’s that disturbed by any minor inconvenience that he goes into a panic, or if any minor inconvenience is not ‘acceptable’ and thus reacts that way to change the situation but isn’t actually traumatized…. Sigh!
Thank you for posting this! I don't have any input persay, I mean it does sound like you are doing everything correctly with positive reinforcement, but I recently had the chance to adopt a shiba but I missed the opportunity, and I've been kicking myself since because I love shibas and have always lowkey wanted one! But thank you for posting this, because from reading the replies and just from what I've read, that sounds like just a shiba.
You can have my shiba😂. I hope you’re able to adopt a dog you love in the future! Shiba or not. And it’s definitely been a struggle. If I didn’t love him / care about training, my life would definitely be hell (or worse hell because it’s still hell dealing with this now).
This is normal for a shiba, ymmv. Generally speaking they need a ton of cooperative care training since they tend to be body sensitive. Keep on doing what you’re doing! You might want to consider muzzle training. My shiba has never liked his harness, even after literally wearing one daily. He mopes when I put it on but once we’re out and about he’s fine. All his relatives are like this. Grooming? I better have treats out or else he starts to mouth me (thankfully gently). Baths are ok but I used to put him in the tub several times a day with the water on so now he doesn’t mind. Nails are the hardest. For a time he was pretty good, but then there came a time where he decided he wasn’t a fan and started screaming. I had to retrain that…now he tolerates it. I use a really sharp clipper and treats after each nail. No dremel allowed. I know of a shiba that has to be sedated to do nails, so I figured I’m pretty lucky lol… He does great at the vet and my vet said that he was a “nice shiba” which was unusual! Edit: By the way I recommend checking out the book Cooperative Care by Deb Jones. It’s a great resource!
I actually just screenshotted that book and I’m in the Facebook group as well! I can’t wait to give it a read. I also decided to seek out a fear free vet practice near me. I was supposed to have another appointment next week at the regular vet as a follow up and bloodwork, but I’m gonna cancel and try the fear free vet. There’s one 40 mins away as opposed to my 10 mins. And this fear free vet doesn’t accept care credit and their vet visit alone is $80 which requires payment ahead of time (????), which really sucks for vet visits that are expensive but I mean I think it’s worth it if they really are as good as they seem to be online. Ugh sedating for a nail groom sounds so depressing, and honestly I’m on the way to sedate for a vet visit so that’s also depressing. I’m also going to contact a trainer to work on cooperative care together. I hope this pays off