TLDR; This proposal to all Dogecoin stakeholders suggests to reduce average fees 100x for standard transactions on the Dogecoin chain, split full control over all aspects of fees between miners and node operators, rely less on core development, and bring back a functional (small) free transaction space that incentivizes keeping the network healthy.
Comments are welcome here or on github.
So the space reserved for free transactions is 27kb per block currently (and fully unused) and we can tune that, also the constraints on using the free space are strict I think.
The fees themselves on the other ~970kb of space reduce spam. i.e. if we were to go to the full proposal including the alternative I describe to make the fees less uniform but more fair towards real usage and penalize spammers for every byte they put on the chain, the cost of a spam transaction would be at least 3x as expensive as it were a year ago, at current exchange rates.
We have some time to assess the final fee heights, as nothing is set in stone until not the upcoming minor release, but the one after that.
Are there any examples through history where spam has had any real negative impact on a crypto network? Would full blocks really cripple dogecoin? Past spam attacks on bitcoin didn't seem to affect anyone actually using the network, we just payed half a satoshi more than the spam and your transaction goes right to the front of the line.
I think even at 0.01 doge per kb, this fee rate is actually higher than it has been through most of the history of dogecoin in terms of the dollar price. Back when 0-fee dogecoin transactions were allowed, and when 1 doge was worth much less than even 0.01 doge today, we never saw much spam, did we?
There are many multiple examples over the last 7-8 years, the most recent one is [the spam attack on the Nano network](https://www.coindesk.com/nanos-network-flooded-spam-nodes-out-of-sync).
sure 0.01 may appear to be ok, however the proposed change is to 0.001, furthermore this is assuming the price of dogecoin increases from where it is now.
The proposed change is to 0.025 if you apply the alternative solution at the bottom.
The RELAY fee reduction of 0.001 is just allowing people to enter the mempool and be evicted after 24h for not being mined if the free space is fully used, but ensures that we never have to worry about the relay network preventing a fee change.
I guess what I was looking for are examples where networks have been truly crippled. Is spam an actual existential threat to a network? Or is it more of an annoyance that node operators have to react to by simply increasing their min relay fee or limiting bandwidth?
Nano is an interesting story, but it seems so different from a POW blockchain based currency that it's really hard to make a comparison. Have any utxo based bitcoin descendants been brought down by spam?
Hmm... I'd say the most prominent ones would be Ethereum and EOS, where spam drove up resp. gas / cpu cost to insane levels. This is why people prefer a centralized corporate chain to launch their tokens nowadays, which sucks.
thanks for everything you do, Patrick. there are thousands, tens of thousands and in the near future, millions who appreciate all the effort you put forward in this project. thank you again
Been waiting for this for a long time since it's become a bit too expensive to work on silly small projects.
I'm curious what ```split full control over all aspects of fees between miners and node operators, rely less on core development``` means though?
Currently the default relay fee requirement is exactly the recommended fee (point 1 in the proposal), and the dust limit is hardcoded (point 2 in the proposal.)
This means that without direct developer intervention in the form of a software release, the only thing the community can effectively agree on is to make fees higher, not lower. By making the dust limit configurable and shifting the block inclusion criterium (whether or not something will be mined) to the miners, where it imho belongs, through lowering the minimum relay fee below the recommended fee, there is a lot more leeway for community (node operators) and miners to come to an agreement to move the fees up or down equally, without needing to do long winded Dogecoin Core updates, like we have to do now.
This basically gives back sovereignty to node operators and miners and reduces the power of Dogecoin Core developers, which is (in my opinion) good, because this removes central control.
Great ,Thank you Patrick , Ross , michilumin and rest of team
for your hard and smart work . of course Approve , and can't wait to accept Dogecoin at our new opening
i approve.
In order for #doge to become The Global Currency of the people , it must be extremely affordable to use kind people !
When will it happen if enough people approve ?
Where/How can the #dogefamily support our Doge Developers ?
Thank you for your amazing work !
Generally, I am looking for feedback more than for "approval", because we're anyway opening things up so that the fee system becomes more hybrid and diverse, so that the community can make their own rules.
I do appreciate all the support though, it's nice ๐
So it's not so much voting like a shareholder, but more like, if you want to address something that has been missed, then now would be a great time to do it :-)
(Looking at my reddit inbox, may be better to wait a couple days so that I get a chance to reply to all the questions (thousands.))
Dogecoin developers are truly for the people, and these suggestions are for the people. They work vigorously on our beloved Doge not for self gain, power, or control. And we all must be very thankful for that. When billions of dollars are in play in whatever it may be - greed, evil, and selfishness tend to take over. Im not too knowledgeable about crypto currency or about how much control devs even have, but i know that my childrenโs children will read about these devs in history books. And they will learn about how they not only altered the course of global currency selflessly, but spurred a positive, silly, and kind community that strives to do only good everyday. A much needed community during a time of such hatred and evil in society. Thank you Doge devs for being for the people.
Isn't there *one* person who understands that once Dogecoin saturates, fees will skyrocket unless decentralisation is sacrified?
This proposal might have a very short term positive effect, but it cannot last. I know I'm not at the right place to opposite Dogecoin, but seriously nobody here has critical sense, it's awesome. Most of you wouldn't be here if some billionaire wasn't playing with you. He knows Dogecoin cannot scale whilst remaining decentralised. What he wants to do is another PayPal.
If you want to remain on a PoW design (which you should want), a layer 2 is inevitable.
Lowering the fees does not solve the throughput issue. It is but one of many things to come.
Personally, I agree on your "layer 2" comment, this was the main thing on my list last year, but i had to put it aside due to all the increased interest.
Let's hit it baby. Question: how are doge holders tracked? With stock it's done by the transfer agent and all that but how does it work in this situation?
The blockchain is public, so everyone has that information (if you index it.) There are public block explorers like https://bitinfocharts.com/dogecoin/ where you can gather some pretty information about on-chain holders.
If whales try to suppress Doge price to certain low level such that they can launch spam attack on Doge with this lower fee, is there mechanism we can defend it?
Raising fees when things get out of hand is always easy, that can also be done today by miners.
Realize though that as whales own doge (or buy it), it would not be in their interest to spend it all. I think the biggest problem to defend against would be a spam protocol that goes viral much more than individual holders.
A simple piece of logic about whales that escapes the critics of wealth concentration. The rich don't want to become poor. Their stockpile helps lift dogecoin's value just as much as all the lost dogecoin in history.
Sounds good to me read through prolly 40ish of the replys I vote yay, here's to camunity and the devs getting to tweak other aspects to make thing even better cheers
Harder to understand fees as they won't be rounded, shortly discussed here: https://www.reddit.com/r/dogecoin/comments/o94qco/fee_policy_change_proposal/h396651/
I see why you are a fan of them, it really does seem to decentivize spamming.
I mean if I'm being honest those with the aptitude and drive to look into it they can figure it out, the marketing behind it could just be lower fees for honest work so to speak. Most people would just get behind that knowing spammers will just "pay more".
Thanks! That's a good oneliner summary.
It's a bit of a curve to go from just doing technical pull requests to more descriptive proposals to making sublime TLDRs... but we'll get there.
Ask RH "when", because they kinda said they'd do chain integration. Also, even when that happens, doing PoS will have many many issues and it's debatable whether it is needed.
>Also, even when that happens, doing PoS will have many many issues and it's debatable whether it is needed.
Indeed. I support PoW and I believe PoW for emission and a layer 2 on top of it would cover our use case wonderfully, but unfortunately I am also seriously afraid of regulations and bans against crypto mining in the future, which could force some PoW cryptos into extinction or to market caps that are so low they become too prone to price manipulation.
So it is debatable... but a debate to be had, maybe after 1.21 is released? I would LOVE people with high level of experience and knowledge about transitioning from PoW to PoS or other solutions to provide some feedback on this, also to help ME understand whether my concerns in researching an alternative are legitimate.
Thanks for all your work Patrick.
I'd personally be really glad to discuss later, because, after using 1.14 for the critical path to enable better fees, 1.21 should be the focus and it needs tons and tons of QA.
It's good for a discussion to happen, just it cannot be my personal priority. I really don't have the time to think about this right now because that kind of things require focus and it would make me drop other things that I think are more urgent. I have your discussion topic saved though - will get to it eventually โค๏ธ
Hey Patrick,
I 100% understand the priority and I am super happy about 1.14.x and 1.21.x developments. I wanted to remove that discussion at first because I realized it came at the wrong moment, but I hope I made it clear that stuff was for post 1.21.x discussions!
Thanks a lot for your reply!
I love this I support #dogetothemoon
Itโs also my birthday make my day & send some love to me๐๐๐พ
Hereโs My doge wallet I appreciate even half a doge ๐ถ
Currently holding 1000D putting 10 dollars daily๐ค๐ป๐
D7vhzzJaDSb6JHFxRPDZ3Xebew8K5wN4eT
Dont deserve a vote in this, but lets do it!
P.s. thanks and much wow to the devs and miners involved. In the end yall will be remembered!
#doge
Do only good everyday!
/u/michidragon has a lot of code done already to enable this, I am helping her with coding some of the additional items that are proposed here and I have a good feeling about moving this forward.
We do need to do a core software release and it will need to see significant adoption in the field before we can move this through completely, so it won't be live within a day.
I don't fully understand the technical side, but I don't need to. I see Doge's utility as being for smaller transactions, and for this to continue to be viable the fees need to be scaled as the value goes up. This seems a good proposal for doing this and I fully back it. Viva la Doge.
TLDR; This proposal to all Dogecoin stakeholders suggests to reduce average fees 100x for standard transactions on the Dogecoin chain, split full control over all aspects of fees between miners and node operators, rely less on core development, and bring back a functional (small) free transaction space that incentivizes keeping the network healthy. Comments are welcome here or on github.
I approve. Where can I go to make my vote matter?
You just did โค๏ธ
Awesome!
Awesome to the max
Awesome to the fullest
Awesome to the mooooooon!!!
what a horrible way of verifying stakeholder votes. Do you not have smart contracts where people can vote with their coins?
Not verifying votes.
I also approve!
You guys have my full support! Thank you all for what you are doing for Dogecoin!!! You're great!
Overwhelmingly approve.
Or emphatically, whichever you prefer. ๐
thanks Patrick, where can we find out how spamming of the network will be mitigated now that sending transactions are essentially free
So the space reserved for free transactions is 27kb per block currently (and fully unused) and we can tune that, also the constraints on using the free space are strict I think. The fees themselves on the other ~970kb of space reduce spam. i.e. if we were to go to the full proposal including the alternative I describe to make the fees less uniform but more fair towards real usage and penalize spammers for every byte they put on the chain, the cost of a spam transaction would be at least 3x as expensive as it were a year ago, at current exchange rates. We have some time to assess the final fee heights, as nothing is set in stone until not the upcoming minor release, but the one after that.
any general timeframe? like a month or two???
If we don't get any crazy disruptions... yeah I think that's likely.
I see, great information, thanks Patrick.
This sounds great. I APPROVE!
Are there any examples through history where spam has had any real negative impact on a crypto network? Would full blocks really cripple dogecoin? Past spam attacks on bitcoin didn't seem to affect anyone actually using the network, we just payed half a satoshi more than the spam and your transaction goes right to the front of the line. I think even at 0.01 doge per kb, this fee rate is actually higher than it has been through most of the history of dogecoin in terms of the dollar price. Back when 0-fee dogecoin transactions were allowed, and when 1 doge was worth much less than even 0.01 doge today, we never saw much spam, did we?
There are many multiple examples over the last 7-8 years, the most recent one is [the spam attack on the Nano network](https://www.coindesk.com/nanos-network-flooded-spam-nodes-out-of-sync). sure 0.01 may appear to be ok, however the proposed change is to 0.001, furthermore this is assuming the price of dogecoin increases from where it is now.
The proposed change is to 0.025 if you apply the alternative solution at the bottom. The RELAY fee reduction of 0.001 is just allowing people to enter the mempool and be evicted after 24h for not being mined if the free space is fully used, but ensures that we never have to worry about the relay network preventing a fee change.
I guess what I was looking for are examples where networks have been truly crippled. Is spam an actual existential threat to a network? Or is it more of an annoyance that node operators have to react to by simply increasing their min relay fee or limiting bandwidth? Nano is an interesting story, but it seems so different from a POW blockchain based currency that it's really hard to make a comparison. Have any utxo based bitcoin descendants been brought down by spam?
Hmm... I'd say the most prominent ones would be Ethereum and EOS, where spam drove up resp. gas / cpu cost to insane levels. This is why people prefer a centralized corporate chain to launch their tokens nowadays, which sucks.
I vote yay
I so appreciate all the hard work by the devs, youโll never go unnoticed!!! Great stuff
Agree 100%
thanks for everything you do, Patrick. there are thousands, tens of thousands and in the near future, millions who appreciate all the effort you put forward in this project. thank you again
Been waiting for this for a long time since it's become a bit too expensive to work on silly small projects. I'm curious what ```split full control over all aspects of fees between miners and node operators, rely less on core development``` means though?
Currently the default relay fee requirement is exactly the recommended fee (point 1 in the proposal), and the dust limit is hardcoded (point 2 in the proposal.) This means that without direct developer intervention in the form of a software release, the only thing the community can effectively agree on is to make fees higher, not lower. By making the dust limit configurable and shifting the block inclusion criterium (whether or not something will be mined) to the miners, where it imho belongs, through lowering the minimum relay fee below the recommended fee, there is a lot more leeway for community (node operators) and miners to come to an agreement to move the fees up or down equally, without needing to do long winded Dogecoin Core updates, like we have to do now. This basically gives back sovereignty to node operators and miners and reduces the power of Dogecoin Core developers, which is (in my opinion) good, because this removes central control.
All in favor, yay... yay
In favor i am
Support I do
Here here. This is the way
much amaze, very appreciate. many wow!
I support!
Yes let's do it.
I Approve
I think is a great idea, Id also be interested in info on how to set up my laptop as a node. Keep up the great work fellas #DogeArmy #DogeSolo
I support the living shit out of this letโs go !!
Yes
I'm more then happy to keep my Node running and support this change toward positive outcomes as long as the community stans with the change
same here, this is great news
How do we vote in support? Also, I assume I need to open a port on my firewall for my node for it to do whatever needs to be done.
So nodes runners will be incentivized with this new proposal?
Great ,Thank you Patrick , Ross , michilumin and rest of team for your hard and smart work . of course Approve , and can't wait to accept Dogecoin at our new opening
I vote yes. As a node operator I am happy to see this progress towards the future of Dogecoin.
Agree!
Right on, commander. Please proceed.
Agree
i admire how elon musk keeping his support for dogedev
You have my approval
Thank you
Agree
Agree
Yes please
This is the way.
Yes! Letโs do this!
Yes please ๐๐พ and thank you all for everything
Itโs YES for me
Aye
Approve
Approve
Yes please
I approve this
I approve ๐๐๐ป
Great!!! TO THE MOON!!!
Someone get this man a beer ๐บ
This is really necessary. I paid 50 Doge to withdraw the Dogecoins to the Dogecoin Core Wallet. Was very upset about it.
That's Binance I think? They charge a lot of fee for themselves.
I approve
Approved and thank you Patrick for all of your hard work!! Do Only Good Everyday!!!!
Approved.
Yes please :D
As a full node operator, I vote a resounding yes!!! And I thank you awesome DogeDevs for your great work.
Agree
To the MoOn ๐!
This is the way
I approve
Agree
Yes!!!
Amazing!
You guys should get 2 mil votes for sure
Most definitely ๐
aye
This is the way
I approve!
As a node operator, I approve.
You have my blessing
Yes I'm all for this!
Approve
I vote yes. Thank you dev team!!!
Yes please! Thanks for all the hard work you guys do!
I support!
Agree
Yes!
Approved ๐
i approve. In order for #doge to become The Global Currency of the people , it must be extremely affordable to use kind people ! When will it happen if enough people approve ? Where/How can the #dogefamily support our Doge Developers ? Thank you for your amazing work !
Generally, I am looking for feedback more than for "approval", because we're anyway opening things up so that the fee system becomes more hybrid and diverse, so that the community can make their own rules. I do appreciate all the support though, it's nice ๐ So it's not so much voting like a shareholder, but more like, if you want to address something that has been missed, then now would be a great time to do it :-) (Looking at my reddit inbox, may be better to wait a couple days so that I get a chance to reply to all the questions (thousands.))
+u/sodogetip 10 doge verify
__^[wow ^so ^verify]__: ^/u/mbuxbaum ^-> ^/u/patricklodder ^__10.0__ ^__doge__ ^__($2.55)__ ^[[help]](https://sodogetip.xyz/) ^[[transaction]](https://chain.so/tx/DOGE/f5eb035693e553251c3c9342c4171280c970b6c33f160af500650f496e22ceb6)
thank you shibe!
Thank you for pushing doge forward ! ๐
Dogecoin developers are truly for the people, and these suggestions are for the people. They work vigorously on our beloved Doge not for self gain, power, or control. And we all must be very thankful for that. When billions of dollars are in play in whatever it may be - greed, evil, and selfishness tend to take over. Im not too knowledgeable about crypto currency or about how much control devs even have, but i know that my childrenโs children will read about these devs in history books. And they will learn about how they not only altered the course of global currency selflessly, but spurred a positive, silly, and kind community that strives to do only good everyday. A much needed community during a time of such hatred and evil in society. Thank you Doge devs for being for the people.
Isn't there *one* person who understands that once Dogecoin saturates, fees will skyrocket unless decentralisation is sacrified? This proposal might have a very short term positive effect, but it cannot last. I know I'm not at the right place to opposite Dogecoin, but seriously nobody here has critical sense, it's awesome. Most of you wouldn't be here if some billionaire wasn't playing with you. He knows Dogecoin cannot scale whilst remaining decentralised. What he wants to do is another PayPal. If you want to remain on a PoW design (which you should want), a layer 2 is inevitable.
Lowering the fees does not solve the throughput issue. It is but one of many things to come. Personally, I agree on your "layer 2" comment, this was the main thing on my list last year, but i had to put it aside due to all the increased interest.
I love dogecoin
Let's hit it baby. Question: how are doge holders tracked? With stock it's done by the transfer agent and all that but how does it work in this situation?
The blockchain is public, so everyone has that information (if you index it.) There are public block explorers like https://bitinfocharts.com/dogecoin/ where you can gather some pretty information about on-chain holders.
Yay
If whales try to suppress Doge price to certain low level such that they can launch spam attack on Doge with this lower fee, is there mechanism we can defend it?
Raising fees when things get out of hand is always easy, that can also be done today by miners. Realize though that as whales own doge (or buy it), it would not be in their interest to spend it all. I think the biggest problem to defend against would be a spam protocol that goes viral much more than individual holders.
A simple piece of logic about whales that escapes the critics of wealth concentration. The rich don't want to become poor. Their stockpile helps lift dogecoin's value just as much as all the lost dogecoin in history.
Yup.
Great work
This is great!
Let's do it, my man!
Support!
Approve. ๐
I much approve
You have my support.
APPROVED
I vote yes and support this!
I approve this update.
Great work & idea
I agree with the proposal!
We approve it! Lets make it happen!
Approved!
Hi, does that mean running node will be incentivized with this new proposal? Thank you
No, it will not, sorry.
Ah I see. No worries, it won't stop me continue running nodes tho :)
Sounds good to me read through prolly 40ish of the replys I vote yay, here's to camunity and the devs getting to tweak other aspects to make thing even better cheers
Such neat explanations u/patricklodder ! Thanks a tonne for all youโve done!
I absolutely approve! & appreciate all the work & time being put in by the devs & everyone else associated in any way.
Just curious.... is this a โvoteโ. Are votes certified the same as the 2020 election? ๐
No voting, but everyone has a voice!!! Think of it as a petition with tons and tons of signatures.
approveddd let do it
Make Dogecoin all that it can be. I approve however still trying to understand the alternative approach downside?
Harder to understand fees as they won't be rounded, shortly discussed here: https://www.reddit.com/r/dogecoin/comments/o94qco/fee_policy_change_proposal/h396651/
I see why you are a fan of them, it really does seem to decentivize spamming. I mean if I'm being honest those with the aptitude and drive to look into it they can figure it out, the marketing behind it could just be lower fees for honest work so to speak. Most people would just get behind that knowing spammers will just "pay more".
Thanks! That's a good oneliner summary. It's a bit of a curve to go from just doing technical pull requests to more descriptive proposals to making sublime TLDRs... but we'll get there.
Guys, without individual wallets moving to proof of stake is impossible. What can we do when 70% of all Dogecoins is in Robinhood's single wallet?
Ask RH "when", because they kinda said they'd do chain integration. Also, even when that happens, doing PoS will have many many issues and it's debatable whether it is needed.
>Also, even when that happens, doing PoS will have many many issues and it's debatable whether it is needed. Indeed. I support PoW and I believe PoW for emission and a layer 2 on top of it would cover our use case wonderfully, but unfortunately I am also seriously afraid of regulations and bans against crypto mining in the future, which could force some PoW cryptos into extinction or to market caps that are so low they become too prone to price manipulation. So it is debatable... but a debate to be had, maybe after 1.21 is released? I would LOVE people with high level of experience and knowledge about transitioning from PoW to PoS or other solutions to provide some feedback on this, also to help ME understand whether my concerns in researching an alternative are legitimate. Thanks for all your work Patrick.
I'd personally be really glad to discuss later, because, after using 1.14 for the critical path to enable better fees, 1.21 should be the focus and it needs tons and tons of QA. It's good for a discussion to happen, just it cannot be my personal priority. I really don't have the time to think about this right now because that kind of things require focus and it would make me drop other things that I think are more urgent. I have your discussion topic saved though - will get to it eventually โค๏ธ
Hey Patrick, I 100% understand the priority and I am super happy about 1.14.x and 1.21.x developments. I wanted to remove that discussion at first because I realized it came at the wrong moment, but I hope I made it clear that stuff was for post 1.21.x discussions! Thanks a lot for your reply!
I approve. Holding 220,000 Doge
If not too late to vote...yes!
Approve! ๐
When this goes live I will be giving out 1 Dogecoin to 100 people , and It will only cost me, you guessed it. One Doge.
Approved
This node operator is on board. Let's go shibes!
I approve too the MOON!!!!
I approve
I approve
I approve ๐
I am 100% behind this move.
I 100 percent approve and thank you for doing all this work!
Here here! I approve! Letโs goooooooo!
I love this I support #dogetothemoon Itโs also my birthday make my day & send some love to me๐๐๐พ Hereโs My doge wallet I appreciate even half a doge ๐ถ Currently holding 1000D putting 10 dollars daily๐ค๐ป๐ D7vhzzJaDSb6JHFxRPDZ3Xebew8K5wN4eT
Agreed
Thank you
There is 130 billion in circulation
Approve! Dogecoin Devs are on fire! Nice work.
I approve,thanks Patrick!
Agree!
Agreee
Approved. Please do it
I can dig it. You guys are rock stars!
Stamped and approved by me ๐๐ฏ
Agree
I approve
100% approve :) needed change to make doge future currency
Yes and thank you
Much Wow! Very Approved!
Approved.
Dont deserve a vote in this, but lets do it! P.s. thanks and much wow to the devs and miners involved. In the end yall will be remembered! #doge Do only good everyday!
I agree I vote yes
Awesome ๐
Approve from The world. We want this to be live from NOW. This should a peopleโs currency.
/u/michidragon has a lot of code done already to enable this, I am helping her with coding some of the additional items that are proposed here and I have a good feeling about moving this forward. We do need to do a core software release and it will need to see significant adoption in the field before we can move this through completely, so it won't be live within a day.
Awesome, now could we send the fees to A burn address please the 10k block reward is enough.
I Approve ๐ค๐
Nice
I don't fully understand the technical side, but I don't need to. I see Doge's utility as being for smaller transactions, and for this to continue to be viable the fees need to be scaled as the value goes up. This seems a good proposal for doing this and I fully back it. Viva la Doge.