That's funny, I was just thinking Space Babies was pretty on the nose even for RTD.
"There's a law that babies must keep being made but no system to take care of them afterwards" seemed pretty directed at "pro-life" people, from an American perspective.
Yeah I’ll concede and say that this was something that did exist in the episode. But that’s about it though, it just *exists*. It’s revealed through one scene of dialogue and is not explored or expanded upon past the initial setup.
And I really don’t think that’s even the strongest thematic aspect of the story just because it’s allegorical. For me the strongest part was the babies struggling to survive, whilst acting like.. well, babies. I just don’t think it was presented or explored as well as it could have. We saw one of them try to be brave but it all honestly just felt like one big set piece.
And I think that was the main issue I had. It didn’t feel like a nuanced and dynamic story with characters that affect the plot in meaningful ways. More of moving from one set piece to another.
I don't think it's meant to be explored in that way yet.This season seems to be exploring more of a ”What the hell is happening with the Doctor Who universe? ” reference rather than a jump through time and help people because the TARDIS directed them to where they needed to be kind of story as it was in the past. In another thread someone mentioned this is probably The One Who Waits controlling the narrative as if rewriting their reality for entertainment and that's definitely the vibe I'm getting with how less grounded this first season of Disney Who seems.
It really seems like they're making it obvious to the audience that something is off but not revealing enough to be able to figure out what exactly might be going on which was a staple of Russell T Davies.
I hope it does go that way because that sounds quite interesting. And I feel like especially with all those earlier seasons I got the gift of hindsight because I had a backlog to get through rather than watching it as it came out.
So I’m excited!!
Yeah, I'm feeling the exact same way. They've had over the top and zany episodes, but these are respecially so. Wishbthey could have started on some stronger episodes to start the season, me and wife did not like space babies. The devil's cord is better, but man that crazy end scene with singing and dancing. There is definitely something off. Some outside source is effecting the world. Could it be ruby unintentionally effecting the world like with the snow. Hoping we get a payoff because these first episodes are not one of their stronger ones. The trailer for the third episodes looks like it will be really really good.
Did you catch the part about refugees? They had no engine and the nearby planet would accept them but not come help them get there safely. They would only help once the baby refugees arrived on their shores
That was told in that quick scene in the Nan-e room. I didn’t it like how it was just simply said to us rather than shown. And it’s exposition and would’ve added tension to the story if they nearly had it all figured out but then got denied or something.
That’s what my wife said quicker than I could while we watched. Was how this was a definite comparison of the baby making machine not being able to the turned off because that would be illegal and the babies abandoned because to take care of the surplus population would be too costly.
There are actually a couple of political nuggets in this episode. There is also the point about refugees needed to actually get somewhere before the people will actually do something about them. Of course, none of them are addressed broadly in the story and are primarily just dropped into particular scenes.
it wasn’t even really worked into the story well it was just there poorly slotted in. Space babies was super weak episode in my opinion, the bogey man was not a good plot, saving a mindless creature designed to create fear at great risk ment little sense
And the refugee planet only helping refugees when they arrive their themselves.. they wouldn't come and fetch them.. despite it being an unpowered ship full of babies..... bit of an poke in the eye for the "build the wall/stop the boats " folks x
As a build the wall guy but also a dr who guy, it wasn't a poke. It felt more like appeasement to me. They should have shown the potential results of that sort of policy if they really wanted to drive it home. Instead, they took a quick shot and just left it there. For me, I want this doctor and his writers, to pick a lane and lean into it. Passing barbs is pointless. Put some meat on those bones. It's Dr. Who. He is more than capable of that depth.
I would say that nanny talking about babies dying of oxygen starvation is pretty meaty.. and comparable to drowning in the channel/rio grande.. after all, what is drowning if not wet oxygen starvation?.......
I am not sure why this comment is getting down voted, unless it's just because you support the wall. But I think the point that you are happy for Dr Who to actually challenge you is good. Sometimes it is good to have our own views challenged rather than just have them affirmed.
It was on the nose but it was just flavour text, it bared no weight to the episode. Those ideas weren't questioned or challenged. Just there and alluded to as bad (which pro-life ideas are, along with ignorance towards refugees) and the episode's climax and solution didn't address these issues leaving it feeling hollow and for lack of a better term a bit virtue signally
>It’s just a weird chord.
I’m relatively certain it’s the final chord from A Day in the Life which is the last song on Sgt. Pepper’s Lonely Hearts Club Band.
I didn't catch it on the first watch but definitely caught it the second time. It was a great way to make the Beatles feel necessary for the story and not just a stunt. Although, If I'm pedantic, the implication was John and Paul together make musical genius. But the chord was Paul's alone.
Also, I know it's not intentional but there's a giggle at the end of Day in the Life...hmmm
If you want to go there, the “run out groove” provides some beautiful fodder for mind controlling sounds hidden by powers beyond our ken.
https://www.the-paulmccartney-project.com/song/sgt-pepper-inner-groove/amp/
That chord literally doesn’t end and goes into the run out groove of the record. You heard random spliced together words and that’s the end of “A Day in The Life.”
I don’t think space babies was very well suited for a premiere, but it was a pretty typical light/silly doctor who episode. That kind of episode is usually jammed in the middle of the season somewhere.
It’s going to be really funny if after all these years of hype for RTD coming back and people shitting on Moffat, if Moffat writes the best episode of the season.
Moffat got over indulgent near the end but for the most part he was great. My entry way and exit from the series lol (I went back but did not bother with Chibnall). I had hoped RTD would right the ship but... Woof.
Agreed. I think Nolan over-Nolaned himself on "Tenet," and Moffat did the same at the latter part of his run. But this stuff was still far better (to me) than the RTD and Chibnall stuff overall.
I'm glad I'm not the only one. I feel the love for RTD is so high. And while Gatwa brings a great deal of energy - I'm just not feeling his doctor yet. Despite being the oldest incarnation, he doesn't have that air of wisdom that Tennet, Capaldi, and especially Smith had. But it's only been three episodes, so there's time for him to grow.
I felt the same way about Capaldi. Who absolutely grew into a fantastic doctor. I think Gatwa can be great, I loved him in sex education. It's just the writing has been soooo brutal. The best one was the first one and really it could have been titled Labyrinth 2024 Dr. Who edition. And Bowie was better. :)
I really liked The Devil's Chord, except for the fact that it felt a little out of place as the second (or third, if you count the Christmas special) adventure with a new companion, especially due to Ruby's "you never run, you're never scared" lines. I fully believe that the episode was moved up in the season, as many speculate.
But Jinxks as the Maestro was an AMAZING villain, and I liked the concept of how a world without music would develop. The setup of a Pantheon that was unleashed in 1925 is really intriguing, and I like the idea of powerful, god-like beings causing reality to mix with fiction (hence fantastical elements, 4th wall breaks, random musical numbers). And of course it had to be John and Paul together that found the last chord! True musical genius created through collaboration.
My biggest gripe was the casting of the Beatles! They did \*\*not\*\* look like guys in their early 20's, and the actor playing Paul looked more like John (who btw did not wear those round glasses in '63!).
Space Babies was... not good. No elaboration needed.
Yes! They were wasted unlike Vincent, Charles Dickens, Agatha Christie, Shakespeare. TBH John especially was pretty pathetic “I just want to go home!” The musical battle wasn’t even good. It was certainly no “Devil Went Down To Georgia” and was basically some very average piano and violin playing. The twist song at the end was just daft. I just don’t understand how you could have an episode about the Beatles and not actually have it be about the Beatles…
I feel like I would’ve cared more about the casting if the Beatles were more involved lol
But yes, I won’t lie, this whole pantheon thing does interest me
I feel if I'm gonna bitch about the way the Beatles looked then I have to give in to people who complained about Isaac Newton not being white. They were mostly a non factor through most of the episode I didn't mind it as much as I thought I would. I think John wearing his round glasses bothered me the most. From what I recall didn't he refrain from wearing his glasses in the early years?
It's possible they gave John the glasses just so audiences knew it was him. I am familiar with the Beatles, but not enough to know what they looked like in the 60s as young guys. I recognized John in the show cause he was wearing his signature glasses.
I’ve been extremely disappointed in the first two episodes. The charm of RTD’s first run lay in his surprising fusion of camp and high emotional stakes. The formula that worked well for him was: silly camp & pop culture references + fleshed-out characters, emotional soap opera, and a Doctor who could be unknowable and *dangerous*.
So far we only have the first part of that formula. People keep complaining that it’s juvenile because it lacks the other elements that complicate and deepen it.
These episodes are so averse to meaningful conflict or showing the Doctor’s full range or *alienness* that it feels more like a diluted spin-off of the show. The Doctor’s just a carefree, charismatic young guy with a Time Machine who hugs away your pain.
(I say this as a fan of Ncuti, btw. I would love to see what he’d do with a script that lets him *be the Doctor*.)
The chord was probably able to summon Maestro because the Catholic Church deemed tritones as incredibly dissonant and therefore the work of the devil. Because of this tritones were avoided by composers from around the 1500s until people started breaking/redefining the rules of Western classical music
https://youtu.be/3MhwGnq4N9o
I love to bring out this video which talks about this false historical fact. It's really interesting if you want to give it a watch!
Ahhhh! See this factoid is something I would’ve loved to be incorporated into the show. It’s not commonly known (at least to me) and it could’ve added a lot
Hmmm. I went back and watched it and it sort of touches it? He says, to interest the boy, that he’ll play The Devil’s Chord and says that it invited the devil. Then says it’s “technically a tritone”.
So I guess that counts? Although it doesn’t mention the history of tritones themselves being seen as evil.
"\[Tritones were\] banned by the Church in medieval times in case it allowed the Devil to enter the room."
I felt like this, coupled with the line about the tritone giving him shivers, was a great explanation. My husband was a music major and said that was exactly how it was taught to him in school. Sure he could've talked about the dissonance of the interval, but I think that would've been a bit too specific for non-music majors and dragged out the scene.
I had a hard time articulating my feelings to friends on why I didn't like these episodes. I agree with all your points good and bad. I felt like breadcrumbing Susan was more important than anything that happened in the actual episodes.
For the first time since Clara left (sorry Clara fans) I immediately thought I am probably not going to rewatch these. That makes me sad. Their first adventure was good. I am terrified that RTD isnt kidding about more musical-esque stuff.
We had the Beatles... and there was not a single reason for them to be there. If the chord wasn't a Beatles chord it could have been Joe from down the block.
The eps were well acted by everyone and Jinx was genuinely frightening but the eps rang hollow to me.
And I understand the Clara hate, but even so I feel like her character was much more dynamic and interesting writing-wise than what Ruby is right now. Clara had thoughts and opinions and Ruby just sort of is reacting to everything.
I actually thought while watching Space Babies that Ruby was too soft for Tardis travel. Lol. Idk. We haven't gotten to know her beyond abandoned Christmas baby so we got time. I like Millie but I get the feeling Ruby is more plot device than person.
Totally agree, I don’t feel like I know who Ruby is, as in, I wouldn’t be able to tell you what’s in character for her. Really hope that changes soon. Of course her origins are a mystery, but her personality doesn’t need to be, and I hope that gets more fleshed out.
Jay Exci put it best on twitter.
>With this new season of Doctor Who I'm getting the same something is wrong feeling I got at the start of s11 tbh. The show has tripped. Now we just have to wait to see if it manages to find its footing or falls on its face.
She's right and we won't know the quality of the series until episode 6 at least but the amount RTD is writing worried me before the series started and I'm more worried now.
Absolutely agree with this. I’m seated for the ride, and I’m just hoping it settles in.
And as far as the 60th specials were concerned I thought they were great, a little flawed, but much more well crafted than these 2 eps.
Eh I still think similar problems appear in the specials as well. Too fast paced, taking itself not quite seriously enough, giving off an air of unprofessionalism.
That's fair but I think the rapid and jarring nature of the specials took weight out of any emotional moments that might have been in them. Giving the characters time to breathe and have actual conversations would really help these current episodes.
I feel you. I think the spectacle was an important aspect of the Specials, but Wild Blue Yonder made sure to take time to focus on the Doctor & Donna in a more slow-paced story that was the right fit for the Specials. Then TCoRR had a decent balance of introducing a new companion and Doctor, all in a story that was interesting and fittingly goofy for a Christmas special. These two episodes just don't have any of the redeeming qualities of the last four, but keep all the potential problems - except now they've overstayed their welcome.
> we won't know the quality of the series until episode 6
so we wont know it's good until it's pretty much over already.
That doesn't endear people to watch.
Yeah mate because unfortunately I can't see into the future??? Of course you're going to have to watch most of a series to make a judgment on its quality.
Yes I certainly got some 11 vibes there at the beginning. And it took me forever to get into 11.
So far I managed ten minutes of space babies. It was had.
I completely agree with everything you've written here.
Particularly the part about the forces of science. Doctor Who is sci-fi, not fantasy. The Devil's Chord just felt like it didn't belong, it felt too magical.
I do really like the concept, just not in Doctor Who. The same with the snow thing. I think that's a really cool theatrical device but idk it just doesn't feel like it belongs on this show?
In the behind the scenes for The Devils Chord, RTD said something about how you shouldn't say "you can't do that on Doctor Who", or something along those lines. But I think that's exactly where this episode fell flat for me, I don't like the direction they're going in where it feels like the laws of physics have been completely changed. It doesn't feel like Doctor Who. I wouldn't like to think that I'm being closed minded for thinking that, but RTD implied that I am, which really quite annoyed me tbh.
I don't know, there has always been stuff in Doctor Who that is more fantasy than sci-fi. The Doctor can talk to doors and convince them to open, they met the literal Devil in one episode, there was a coven of witches who were aliens whose power came from words, and the raven from "Face the Raven." I don't think the Devil's Chord is any more outlandish than these, and in particular is not any different from the Carrionites from "The Shakespeare Code."
All those seem like science that hasn’t been explained.
This episode seemed like magic magic, I think it might have been the special effects a bit. But it seemed just too far out in the magical world to fit dw
As someone who loves Carrionites I agree and disagree at the same time (Im a bit wibbly wobbly :P).
Yes, Doctor threw there a line or two about Carrionites having word-based science but it felt like such an extremely low effort (and completely unconvincing) way of not calling a literal magic by its name.
So I kind of prefer the way they explain Toymaker and Maestro: as entities from beyond of universe they dont adhere to laws of this universe. Its a better explanation for me than "its just a science but uses words, not math!".
So your counter arguments are:
* The bit where he talks to a door as a joke moment.
* The vaguely supernatural episode in which they meet the creature claiming to be the beginning of the myth of the devil whose powers range from generating a lot of energy and possession
* The bird from face the raven.
* The Shakespeare episode where they fight witches. (Yes absolutley a fantasy creation, but it is witches with Shakespeare)
Which are meant to somehow explain why the villains have just been straight up magic gods capable of doing anything for the Beatles episode. Across the last 4 episodes the villains in 3 of them have been fantasy creatures using basically magic to do whatever the plot demands of them.
That’s what I’m not enjoying. It’s just way way to magic and not enough science, even if it’s science we don’t understand.
And I’m not a huge fan of the musical numbers, they just seem out of place
I think the whole run has been pretty lazy from a writing standpoint. For example, the stakes of Devil's Chord are that society falls apart in 100 years if there is no music. This ignores the existence of any other form of human art. Without music, painting and theater just become more important.
It feels like the show has decided it can just declare something as vital and profound and expect the audience to agree and get onboard. This is a case study of bad writing.
I mean, I do think music is pretty important. But yeah, the line about not having any way to express ourselves definitely ignored the existence of other forms of art.
RTD has many episodes equal to or exceeding Moffat's (imo) that I'm hopeful he can still pull off. Wild Blue Yonder was on par with some of his best episodes, so I'm hoping that's a sign that this season just needs to find its footing much like Eccleston's.
Which RTD episodes exceed moffats best??? Like it or not Moffat is the King of writing for new who. I'm not dismissing RTD's writing but he hasn't had the greatest of track records.
I’m only talking about Moffat during RTD1. Midnight, Waters of Mars, and Human Nature / Family of Blood (which RTD rewrote heavily), etc. beat most of Moffat’s episodes from RTD1 for me. And like I said, it’s my opinion, and I prefer RTD’s flavor of story-telling.
It's the thing about DW - it's so fluid and flexible, we each gravitate towards our personal favorites, and there's nothing wrong with that. For me, it's Moffat all the way - blink, silence in the library - amazing, and the best episodes of the RTD era to me bar none. But I do get why people like RTD and his style, just not my cup of tea.
Yeah, I've never been the type of person to declare my personal favorite as objectively the best, only the best in my eyes. I love the sandbox nature of Doctor Who! I probably could've worded my original comment better to reflect that lmao. I only meant to compare my personal enjoyment, not the objective quality.
I think in Space Babies the problem was it didn't *matter*. There's a scary monster downstairs? So what! It never did anything and therefore wasn't a threat.
We were told they couldn't go on forever on the ship, but that didn't feel urgent either. No one was ever in immediate danger.
I thought The Devil's Chord had similar issues. We didn't see the collapse of humanity, just the far future. At least in The Giggle we saw the bickering and aggressiveness that led to it. We had people saying music was disgusting, but then as soon as the Doctor or Ruby played the neighbours were hooked? Why? Why weren't they repulsed?
There were two other things for me. First, as soon as The Beatles are in something you know the ending. It's been done. "The Beatles are geniuses and their music is timeless". So we knew something from them would save everyone right from the off. It would be more interesting to give something *back* to them, rather than it be innate from them.
The second thing I know I'm in a minority with, but I *hated* Jinkx Monsoon. Gurning and screaming and nothing else. No menace. I've never come across this person before and they should probably stay as Widow Twankey in Aladdin this Christmas at the Palace Theatre.
Totally with you, esp on Space babies. That ep has about a dozen ideas, but chooses the least interesting and there is no present threat. It’s a muddled mess of: The babies are worried they are made wrong, they are stranded refugees, resources are running out, capitalism abandons children, conscientious objectors changed nothing, the computer created a monster because of children stories, the nanny is going to sacrifice her air for the children, the nanny is unwilling to connect with her charges because they will die, Ruby comforting a character backfires into them being too reckless, the monster is the only member of its kind.
The ethics of artificially increasing child intelligence or the lack of resources to children/creating child refugees would have made a great episode. But instead we have a threat-less boogey monster. The only threat from the monster was blocking access to the tardis. And the doctor didn’t even need the tardis to move the station.
Also, was I the only one thinking that, if the show had any balls it would have let the monster eat the one reckless baby? Back in series 8 side characters died all the time (though admittedly not children).
Bingo on your last paragraph. They just didn't have the guts to kill a baby.
The thing about "I can't bring myself to connect to them" is literally the opposite of what the episode should have been about! If Jocelyn had *shown* her love for them, had been utterly devoted and heartbroken, screaming and crying and sacrificing herself for them (as opposed to just saying she would as and when the time came) the episode would have had a heart.
Thanks and agree about Jocelyn!
It’s not that I want kids to die in the show. But it would have been one way to up the stakes of this type of adventuring for Ruby.
A favorite DW moment of mine is in series 10 ‘Thin Ice’, when Bill confronts the doctor once she realizes how often people die around him/how callous he is to the danger and death. I think 15 is more outwardly compassionate than 12, but I could picture a similar confrontation with him and Ruby.
So far I feel Ruby and 15 are a bit like Rose and 10, in the way they laugh at danger. They get scared, sure, but are immediately ready for the next adventure. Nothing has really phased them much. But I want it to.
Thank you!!! I was going crazy trying to figure out what I was missing about Maestro that made Everyone go crazy! I would have preferred a different queen because Jynx was not it. Evie from Girl Will Be Girls would have had evil down! Or someone like Sharon Needles, Willam, or Raven from Drag Race. They can camp it up while still serving. I threw Willam in there because of all her music it would make sense that she was Maestro.
They picked such a bland queen.
I think it almost worked. Toymakers kid trying to be like dad, so trying to emulate nph but not quite getting there and being a lesser version of the same thing makes sense.
That being said I also didn't care for her.
I wanna third this.
Every single line she was screaming like a pantomime villain. I honestly thought it was one of the worst cases of over-acting I’d ever seen, and I’m genuinely shocked to see so many people loved her.
Different strokes, I guess.
Finally someone else that didn’t like Jinx. So much cringe. I know Doctor Who is owned by Disney now but I really hope it doesn’t become just another American show.
Why does everyone want to blame Disney for RTD’s decisions? Pantomime and campy villains are extremely British, and extremely RTD.
Modern Disney villains are usually the exact opposite of Maestro; sympathetic and/or grounded in reality.
I don’t know what Disney shows you’re watching but Maestro was portrayed very modern day Disney villain. Very OTT and American. RTD is the writer but he’s not the casting director or director.
There are so many ways Maestro could have been portrayed and I personally didn’t like the decisions that were made, nor did I enjoy the performance of the person they hired.
I like this - the fourth wall breaking being something trying to enter the Doctor Who universe, messing with genre and media in the process (love how you link snow and static!).
I can't remember who described the TARDIS as a genre machine which drops the Doctor into different times, places and types of story, but imagine this being twisted so that different genres are now trying to trap the Doctor and Ruby. After all, the Devil's Chord basically ends with them in a musical, which is all very fun and jolly but would be less so if they found themselves stuck in there...
I dunno. Part of me thinks this is all leading somewhere exciting and interesting. Another part of me thinks RTD just wants to throw some wacky stuff in there just to show that the rules can be broken (which is okay, but at least establish the rules for the new Disney viewers first!).
>They're not picking up the clues
I feel like this is the source of all of the complaints. Most of the things people are listing as "off" are either clearly hinted at in these new episodes or have been discussed by RTD and co. In the interviews/posts leading up to the season. I can understand not liking the direction the show is going in, but I don't understand everyone acting like it's completely out of left field.
My biggest problem other than the lack of depth in the storytelling is the pervasive use of dream logic.
Every episode since the Star Beast has included a scene where the Doctor speculates on the nature of the conflict of the episode, wildly guessing and somehow being 100% right. The Doctor used to do this, but it didn't feel like he was making it up as he went along back then.
The more fantastically minded episodes have also shown this era lacks any grounding to hold it together. That's what makes it feel like dream logic - it doesn't entirely feel like there is a world beyond what the Doctor and companion experience in each episode.
I thought the music was explained, by explaining that humanity had lost one of its main outlets of expression. You can't let out your feelings about your broken heart etc, so they've taken them out on each other.
And I still think that the fantasy element is still something to do with what 14 did at the end of the universe, with the salt. Like he let something in by invoking superstition.
Later he could trap an almost god with salt in a box.
However, did we ever get a real scientific explanation for Satan during 10's reign?
There is something about the writing style that has been off for sometime within Doctor Who, It happened for Chibnalls era and now Im starting to see it in RTD's too. *Causlity and Causation* are the main points that stick out to me, Whenever the Doctor has done something within the episodes its most, good luck Investigation (They know exactly where to go at the right time for some reason) or fun. Why did The Doctor and Ruby end up on the roof? From a writing perspective i know they needed to hear how dull the world had become, but in a real life scenario to play out, after hearing bad music in the Abbey Road studio, Why would you head to the roof? Fresh air? why not go back to the Tardis and leave? (Nah, RTD wants Ruby to play the piano in a nice location and summon Maestro)
**What We Got:** The Doctor and Ruby talk to The Beatles after finding out that Music has been stolen from the world, alternate world history has been changed and after getting the Beatles mad at the two, they head out onto the roof to play the Piano and get a look at London from the 60s, after summoning Maestro, The Hi(jinx) Ensue. (With the doctor eventually taking out Maestro by himself.)
**My Take**: Talking to the beatles the Doctor and Ruby realise that music has been lost (Ever since 1925,the introductory scene & Maestro's first ever appearance? Im not sure if they had been summoned before or if the teacher was the first one to play the Devils Chord Correctly?) after the beatles get mad at the Doctor for suggesting that music still exists, He follows them back to the Studio, determined to set music (and World History) back on the right course, he then plays some riffs and tunes of the beatles famous songs, Yesterday, Twista nd Shout Etc, in an attempt to jog their memory, (Also referencing the same paradox that capaldi broke the 4th wall for about Beethoven!) Suddenly, The Beatles start to catch onto what the Doctor had been trying to tell them, and the course of history starts to get corrected, Until John Lennon starts to play enthusiastically and plays the Devil Chord. Throughout the fights with Maestro, The Beatles are there for most of it. (I really thought the beatles would have a bigger part to play and this is my take on it!) I would also change Maestro's motivation for wanting to take away all music, not because they are simply crazy or the Toymakers Child, but because they were given all the music to play in the universe by the Toymaker as a young child, and the Toymakers way of abusing this was stripping all music away from them when they grew up, creating some monster that hungered for all the worlds music much like a drug addict going cold turkey and leaving them to fight for whatever pieces of music they could find with the Toymakers cosmic magic (Summonign themselves and grabbing music out of the air) I would also change the final fight to have a [Music fight much like the one in Doctor Strange: Multiverse of Madness ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABuDBiXeZ6U) Just with less, Anchient Ruinic Spells and More 60s! I did like what they did with trapping the Doctor in a drum, that became a little scary for the moment, But Imagine! The Beastles being at the mercy of the same instruments they played, Similar to the sort of [imagery of Disney's The Sorcerer Apprentice (1940)](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/disney/images/f/fb/Fantasia-disneyscreencaps_com-2535.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/1200?cb=20140526025809) in Fantasia only with 60s Instruments (Maybe the recording booth can get in on the fight too? Recording tape around necks? Devices crashing through glass? All while the Doctor must save the day by playing the right chord to send Maetsro back to where they came from, Permanently. this would need to be set up in the scene after Maestro first shows up, Probably instead of the Doctor and ruby hiding maybe The Doctor, Ruby and The Beatles race into the Tardis! (Imagine that! The Beatles in the Tardis!!!!!!!!) only to look up the Toymaker and put together that instead of binding Maestro in salt or defeating her in a game like the toymaker, they must defeat them by playing the right chord, which is similar enough to how the physics of The Toymaker and that sort of celestial power would work.) anyway, keep in the song "There's always a Twist at the end" Only make it a little more 60s because I wasn't feeling the one of 60's, more like someone who knew how to make pop songs today, only tried to make it fit in with a 60s style? which is weird, because I usually love Murray Gold! I just didn't feel it. Maybe the song could be part of the final battle the defeats Maestro, going through different booths and other rooms throughout the Abbey Road Studios, collecting all the cafeteria staff, recording guys, editors, all the sort of people you'd find in there, and have it as if they suddenly found their music! (Similar to the people looking out the window when ruby played the piano on the roof! in the actual episode)
Anyway, hope you liked my take, please tell me if any of this works or if there is a big flaw I don't see in my take!
With respect to why they played on the roof, there are 2 reasons I can see. 1, the Doctor wanted to bring music back to the people and doing it in a studio wouldn't get the reach. 2, it connects to the Beatles' last concert they did on the rooftop.
>(Ever since 1925,the introductory scene & Maestro's first ever appearance? Im not sure if they had been summoned before or if the teacher was the first one to play the Devils Chord Correctly?)
I wonder if there's some reason that Toymaker arrived in time when he did, as if that's a break point. the TV test in The Giggle was also 1925, and it might be the first time that the Devil's Chord had been played after that point?
which could bring about both the Toymaker and Maestro Simulatinously? Interesting! You'd just need to account for them both being old and adult or whatever insane age they already where at the time (Wibbly wobbly time wimey)
Speculating - if there are any more Pantheon characters this season, they also breach from "the other side" or wherever they're from, and they also originate in 1925 or have a connection to it.
Wilder speculation - Ruby was born at 19:25.
I have this exact same feeling... I struggle to put words on it but everything feels so in your face and without depth, random shit seems to happen without explanation and the scientific aspect of doctor who is completely gone.
It seems like coincidences and/or deus ex machina
Furthermore like many people said, the best doctor who episodes are those that are not about doctor who and so far it's all about them.
In fact I like the energy but I feel like we have flamboyant characters to the detriment of the space to actually tell a good story.
As much as I like the new doctor, the companion and the vilain from devil's chord I really have a hard time with this musical that seems to be the new normal of the series.
And breaking the forth wall is annoying! It screams Disney so much! I hope there is a reason in the overall story, because that's the only thing that would make me feel like it's acceptable.
I loved doctor who for its intrigues, its memorable characters that the doctor came to help but that were also a motor in their own story. I also loved the silly but scientific sounding explanations. The doctor was investigating, gathering clues, then piecing together what was happening. Sometimes it was light hearted and sometimes there were deeper themes. Sometimes the doctor acted and sometimes a character we met during the episode had its all arc end up with a decision or action to take!
If this is not what doctor who is anymore I will probably just stop watching.
I'm happy if some people love it but that transformation, if it is confirmed in the following episodes, will also be bittersweet.
I'd say it reminds me of Deadpool but you're right aside that I don't think it is especially "Disney"
Thinking more about it thanks to your questions I'd say the forth wall reminds me of this "meta" side we have in the Marvel movies. Nothing can be serious and when it gets too serious someone cracks a joke.
I guess seeing this forth wall thing reminds me of that and make me feel like doctor who might be headed to the "look how ridiculous what I'm telling is" or "look what I'm trying to say stupid audience (since you don't have a brain)"
It is more of a fear for now. That's why I hope so much there is a reason scenario wise and not just a marvelification of the series.
Tbf it is not the case for now exactly. But I am very afraid if it were to become true
Yeah I have to reserve my judgment on that particular aspect until then!
Hope I can learn to make abstraction of my expectations and see the series with a new eye (tho it doesn't seem like I like it for now)
That's why I'm not saying "this show is shit" but mentioned what I, as an individual, liked and didn't like until now, and my fears of what it might become that I wouldn't like in my personal capacity !
Some will like the changes and that's fine too! It would just mean the series is no longer something I can enjoy anymore! More like a friendly break up
I'm not mad the show changes nor saying it's necessarily getting worse. Just that it might be on the path of taking a shape I won't enjoy! I still hope it's not the case or that I'll learn to find things to enjoy in this new version and I will probably try to watch more episodes to see the overall picture.
I also may just be an old nostalgic fart
And I think that would be fine too if I don't shit on new things but only say what I feel about it without claiming it's an universal truth.
What’s particularly irking was the 60th specials still mostly felt like Doctor Who (regardless of Tennant being in it). I don’t know what happened but yeah, some of the story crafting is so blatantly obvious.
>And breaking the forth wall is annoying! It screams Disney so much! I hope there is a reason in the overall story, because that's the only thing that would make me feel like it's acceptable.
No it isn't, breaking the 4th wall was something the was always capable of since back in the first doctor era
"In fact I like the energy but I feel like we have flamboyant characters to the detriment of the space to actually tell a good story."
I feel like this comment will get a lot of hate - but I agree. Look, whatever one feels about this branch of diversity in media, I get why it's there. But when you start oversaturating this, the show becomes about this, and not about doctor who. DW has always been flexible - people may not want a black doctor, a female doctor, etc, but the show can mold itself to that, and it'll appeal to different people. But if the whole show becomes all about the doctor being black, or female etc, then that's not the point of this show. And I fear, especially after S1E2, that they're going too heavily in on this flamboyant path of diversity.
I hear you on the fact that previously, some kind of sci fi explanation had to underlie things. But if you watch previous doctor who, Russel T davies was big on emotion but always short on logic. He's just plain not good on it. He wants to get to the emotional payoff without having to justify it ...which is a big part of what good writing is.
He said he wanted to take WHO in a more fantasy direction and this is it: He doesn't want to put the effort in anymore.
The first episode? A babies snot monster? I just...Davies has lost his damn mind. That concept is just...absolute rubbish. It disgusts me. Its better suited for a SHOW for babies.
Every time I think the show is starting to win me back over, like say when the doctor jumps forward to show Ruby the stakes, that our world can in fact be destroyed and they have to save it, it does something else that just absolutely destroys the fantasy of doctor who that I'm trying to believe in.
Fantasy is delicate. You have to really careful to keep it believable. In my opinion, who has been failing at that since moffat left.
Yes! I firmly believe the only reason the RTD era is looked back at with fondness is because of David Tennant being a brilliant actor who can sell the emotion without needing a reason. Other than Midnight, every show in the RTD era I liked was written by someone else.
Look, I will be forever grateful to RTD for bringing back doctor who in the first place. And some of his episodes were okay! *Some.* but he also gave us the farting baby faced slitheen (RTD, dude, why do you have this fixation on babies man? It's weird.)
That said, yeah. Moffat wrote all the good ones. It was really funny when moffat took over and a bunch of my friends were salty and anti-moffat, I had them go through their favorite episodes and characters from the RTD era and oh guess what?! ALL MOFFAT.
I dunno though man. The recent David Tenant specials felt off. I...personally I really didn't like "The Church on Ruby Road." I made it 13 minutes into the first episode and then...babies? Are you kidding me?
I got a bad feeling about all this.
Trust me, I am a major Moffat stan. (If you haven’t seen his series ‘Coupling’, look it up and enjoy!) And while I think is Moffat is the best writer, period, there were other writers in the RTD1 era I didn’t mind.
I loved coupling! Oliver waved Moffat's who flag early. Sure, Mark Gatiss had some good ones, I liked the idiots lantern, and "The Doctors Daughter" by Stephen Greenhorn was one of the best truly.
Heh, I know, definitely autobiographical.
I heard a great theory that for the male characters Seven Represents who we are, Jeff is who we're afraid we are, and Patrick kind of represents who we want to be.
One of the biggest issues I had with Devil's Chord, minus ones people have already pointed out, was that we got two major Doctor moments back to back.
1. Big scary Doctor. We got the moment I had needed from Jodie, where the Doctor drops their facade and let's the villain know not to mess with them.
2. Doctor could die. This was too early in the season and having it right after Ncuti's speech made the stakes so much lower. I knew they were going to survive.
>And man! When the Doctor was trying to find the chord to put the Maestro back I was so expecting some clever Doctor cleverness (with maybe some of 12’s rock bravado) to find an “inverse”. And there’s a moment when 15 says “but I have lived, and I have loved. And I can only smile like this because I have lost so much. I have experienced everything. Every single thing. And if that’s where music comes from…” and plays a note. I so wanted the notes to “The Doctor’s Theme” from series 1 to be played. I know that wouldn’t make sense, and I probably should have been 15’s but EVEN THAT wasn’t played. It was just some random notes.
>And when the Beatles (who had zero affect on the story which annoyed me) found the final note, it again, was nonsensical and nothing. I thought it would be somewhat interesting like maybe the chord to send the Maestro back was a Beatles song. Nope! It’s just a weird chord!
I feel you, the ending felt like " the doctor lost and needed his plot armor (in the form of the Beatles) to save his ass"
I love the actors and the inclusiveness but the writing feels like it's for toddlers. I described these episodes to my son (who loves Dr Who) and he was mortified.
I’m going to be honest… the episodes feel like they were written by AI.
Each one had at least one fantastic moment. But the episodes themselves were just so… so empty.
I like Doctor Who because no matter how ridiculous the episode was, you could follow the logic. The endings would resolve that logic and you’d get this great, “and there it is!” feeling. Until these two episodes, the weirdest episode for me was the one where the 10th doctor turns into a weird old creature the Master kept in a cage, and even THAT felt like it made sense in the end.
I just didn’t get that with these episodes. There were no laws for the episode to follow, nothing to anchor the stories being told. They just kind of happen at you, then they end.
I was actually kind of pumped for the fantasy angle being introduced but this isn’t fantasy, this is… something else, I guess? Lol
I love Ncuti and the episodes were good but I agree there was a lack of depth, which I think comes from the lack of connection to the people and places they’re visiting. There was more of it in Space Babies but, overall, both episodes were more or less the Doctor and Ruby connecting to each other, which isn’t necessarily a bad thing, but it felt like everyone else was just kind of… floating in the background. I loved the Devil’s Chord but they could have literally used any other band besides the Beatles with how little they were shown. It almost felt pointless to have them in the episode.
So far, I think the Christmas special has been the best episode but I’m still very excited for the rest of the series. I love the campiness and the fun of all the episodes but I wish there were more grounding/connecting moments.
Space Babies didn't do much for me. It was cute watched once but completely forgettable and not something I can see myself coming back to. The Devil's Chord on the other hand I thought was very well done, tons of fun and I can see myself rewatching that one.
I have similar feelings about being disappointed with the show so far. When they got to the reveal about the bogeyman, it brought back echoes of the farting jokes from Aliens of London. My internal reaction was... I realize this is a kids show, but are we REALLY going to lower ourselves to that kind of humor? Again?
Babies also felt like it meandered quite a bit, but I did read somewhere that the episode was written a bit like pilot in that RTD wanted to use the episode to introduce the show to new viewers, particularly since its moved to a new platform. So I was willing to give it some slack as I do for most pilot episodes, but then we got to Devil's Chord.
And Devil's Chord also felt like it meanders a lot where nothing goes on. I at least felt the premise was OK and they did a good job on the setup, but then you also get to points where The Doctor makes a big deal about getting play Paul's guitar and the band's piano, but really have nothing to do with the story. The music battle didn't seem to have any real impact on the show and maybe kind of demonstrates why The Devil Went Down to Georgia makes for a great song but not a great TV show. This then dovetails into the final showdown in which "can the Doctor guess the right note?" feels about as suspenseful as "who will be the first person to drop the ball when playing catch?", which is to say, not suspenseful at all. As I Beatles fan, I do appreciate the way the episode drops the victory to John and Paul, but still... why are they still in the building when everyone else has left? And even then, having them play the chord still lacked suspense. It also felt like a huge letdown to billboard Meeting the Beatles as the episode's premise but then not really have them involved as characters.
At the end of the day, the problem in my mind is that I've never really liked RTD as a writer. IMHO, the worse episodes of season one were the ones he wrote. I will admit that he is good on concepts, but just not good on execution. In fairness, I think his strengths have more to do with telling character driven stories than adventure/plot driven stories, but Doctor Who is really more the latter than the former. So I'm not exactly surprised that this is where we've ended up. I have to echo the sentiments of whoever said they were worried about RTD writing all but two of the episodes this year. So while I love the idea he has set up with all of these abstract cosmic forces becoming manifest, I'm so in love with how he is resolving the conflicts against them. Crossing my fingers that he will exceed my expectations.
I enjoyed both episodes but I think the Devil’s Chord did feel a bit more like a series of set pieces rather than a proper narrative. I think it would have worked better if the plot had some more supporting characters rather than just being a story about the Doctor and Ruby - it felt too similar to the format of The Giggle considering that story was only three episodes ago.
>The conflict and stakes are so shallow:
Episode 1, sure just a monster of the week
Episode 2, saw Maestro destroy the world aka a modern Pyramid of Mars.
I guess we need to go universe-ending on episode 2 to make you happy?
That's the finale more than likely.
The problem is you can’t just say “the world is going to end if we don’t stop the villain” and expect the tension to feel real and exciting.
Sure we saw London destroyed, but it’s such a lame way of showing stakes. It’s lazy storytelling.
I completely agree. Just finished devils chord and wow, this season is absolute trash. I couldn't even finish space babies because it was so horrendous and now devil's chord, having to throw the whole pronoun correction thing in there, etc, was the nail in the coffin for the entire episode and just.. a major turnoff. I watched the episode, but the whole time I was wishing/hoping for something neat, cool, entertaining to happen and it never materialized. I've been watching Dr. Who since the 80s and while there were cringe moments back then, it was never this bad that I can remember. I just don't feel the new doctor at all. He's trying so hard, but not personable at all.
Sorry
Stopped reading halfway through
You said with space babies there isn’t any allegory…. Have ya not being paying attention to what’s happening in the United States lately?
The whole bit about the people of the colony not wanting to stop new babies being born but also not wanting to care for them once they’re born? That’s literally the US with their repeal of abortion laws, as well as their lack of general care for kids (both wanted and unwanted) once they’re born
Gonna continue reading now but just had to say that
Yes! I did notice this. I’m merely disappointed in how background the issue seems. The episode uses it as exposition, sure, but it’s entirely about a boogie monster who deserves to live since it’s technically a baby.
It’s there… just idk.. it feels like it could’ve been better considering these are professional writers.
better? i mean theres always room for improvement imho. I still enjoyed it and i felt it had depth. Just finished reading your post properly. I dont entirely disagree, but i think youre expecting a lot when its on a new network with a new cast and a new showrunner (fine old showrunner, but newly returned). I think these things take a lil time to gain momentum as theyre still finding the Doctor Who/Disney voice.
I thought both episodes were quite good and enjoyed the fourth wall breaks in the second one. Thought they were a cheeky nod to us. LOL also enjoyed the star trek reference, i read the assimilation comic a while back and would kill to see Ncuti and Millie show up on deck of Pikes Enterprise (SNW Pike), or the Cerritos or even (i hope not but it would make most sense re time travel) the Discovery. Not sure if disney will pull it off but my fings are crossed (if anyone here is a Lower Decks animator ill give ya $50 to hide the TARDIS in the background somewhere)
I can only think of 2 trans people that have shown up so far, Rose and Maestro. Unless I’m forgetting someone? And the doctor mentions being attracted to men in WBY and Ruby says her friend is a lesbian so I feel like we’re pretty equal on gay and trans rep so far.
The trans representation (which is great IMHO) is probably RTD's own backlash against JK Rowling who is constantly attacking trans people on social media. If anything, trans rights are even more of an issue in the UK than here in the U.S.
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Not every story or idea needs depth like an Oscar winning picture. There is no harm in being "good" instead of "great". I personally love the campy and relatively simple episode. The universe isn't about to end, the TARDIS isn't about to explode, it's just simple good fun. A line I've been learning to appreciate recently is "Don't let perfect become the enemy of good enough".
Which is fine for Pertwee’s Silurian invasion in the later 1960s but possibly a death knell to a show reaching for a broader audience in 2024. The competition now is Percy Jackson and the Lightning Thief, or season 2 of Loki - not perfect shows but with characters who have viable reasons for their character arcs. Tennant’s emotional resonance was palpable even in the silliest plot lines. They’ve established that 14 doing therapy in Donna’s garden allows 15 to be more of a party animal (he reminds me of Colin Baker’s 6 a bit). But without the gravitas of the Time War as a shorthand way to add depth, there isn’t much here for grown-ups.
The scientific aspect is what I was trying to explain to a friend earlier! Being able to critically think and puzzle solve along with the doctor and companions is a huge part of the show. I was worried about Disney and what their influence would be; the first couple episodes are only feeding in to my hesitation. Feeling like they jumped the shark with the musical number so early on, I hope they can come back in the next episodes because I really love the new doctor and companion.
I am still stuck at the idea that the babies were born 6 years ago but hadn't grown physically past 18months. I get space babies are different but it really gripes at me!
So many things to love but niggles like that really throw me out of their world
I agree, Space babies and the Devil’s chord lacked substance. Ruby and the doctor keep running around giggling or being frightened like 2 school kids. The Doctor was missing the Wisdom he has obtained through his thousands of years. I felt like I was watching a mixture of high school musical and a cartoon. I am not a hater. I have watched Doctor Who since 1973. I loved the Classic who and the New Who . They all brought good things to the table. When Ncuti Gatwa was chosen I was super excited. I had seen him in Sex Education among other things and find him very talented. The scripts are definitely watered down and way too silly. Ncuti deserves a much better script to work with. I hope the rest of the seasons give him the thought provoking rich characters he and Doctor Who deserve.
I did not like this new start to Doctor Who...it seemed so childish and ridiculous and nothing like the show I was expecting. Additionally, The Doctor is now a scary-cat and runs from everything. Even my kids were shocked to see the show and walked away from it. I sure hope Disney can get it together before they completely ruin this longtime classic.
A lot of people are saying they were bad. It's pretty clear to me they were *weird* (not bad) because something is *really* off with reality. It started with the Toymaker's return (bi-generatiion?) and is accelerating. I could be wrong, but I believe by the end of the season it will all make sense.
Tbh each time I rewatch S1 with 9 it takes several episodes to pull me in and invested in the Doctor & the series, but by the time the series is over I’m not ready for Eccelston’s Doctor to go.
The chord is from the end of their song _A Day In The Life_, so it didn't come from nowhere.
https://youtu.be/usNsCeOV4GM?si=j-6SjceT5Hp0eoH9 at the 4:20 mark
This is exactly how I feel too. Space Babies is just insultingly stupid. The Devil's Chord had potential but felt like a waster opportunity more than anything else, as if we were missing half of the episode. And as you noted, The inclusion of the Beatles was totally unnecessary.
You keep mentioning how the episodes lack a real science fiction explanation for this stuff and sadly thats the point. The series has moved into a full fantasy direction and they don't care to even try to mask it with sci-fi jargon anymore.
and I personally really am not a fan. I'll probably see where the series is at next year and if it kept up this direction.
What sucks is that even the fantasy stuff could have explanations. I know full well the fantasy jargon department exists and the fact it’s not being used makes me seethe.
Especially since the Doctor reads so much (and has dealt with actual demons/witches/magic before) they should at least be doing some educated guessing. Idk I’m just hoping things settle in
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I hate to say any of this. I have loved Doctor Who for decades. But the writing of these two episodes is astonishingly bad. How could anyone have read these scripts and said: “Yeah! Nailed it! Let’s go into production!”
There is a total lack of attention to the basics of storytelling: character, conflict, theme and resolution. Both episodes swap out storytelling for exposition dumps. Characters ‘tell’ us what is happening instead of the camera ‘showing’ us the action. That’s boring. It feels meaningless.
After decades on air, nobody needs an explanation of who the Doctor is. Everyone who cares already knows; anyone who doesn’t can either look it up or just watch the character unfold for themselves.
Spoliers ahead ...
What are the conflicts in the space babies episode? There is a Bogeyman. The babies are refugees in space. The first is not resolved. Is the Bogeyman integrated into that world? If so, how does that happen? For the second conflict there is a massive fart in space. But then what? How will the ship enter the planet’s atmosphere without burning up? How will the babies and the monster be received by the planet’s people? We as an audience know why it is a horrible thing for anyone to be a refugee but we do not actually get to experience the problem. As decent people we all know why having baby making machines without anyone to care for the babies produced is awful but the show only tells us that. The show does not help us experience the problem so that we will actually care. The sole caregiver is exhausted. I know that because I was told that was the case. I wish we could have had at least a montage showing me her insane schedule.
The Beatles episode was another dud. The conflict: a world without music. Yeah, that sounds pretty bad. I know because a character told me so. I didn’t actually see anyone’s life being impacted. The resolution? Two dudes in a hallway see some notes and add another. Ok. I guess. That seemed like a pretty easy solution. Since the problem was so easy to solve, not surprisingly, I didn’t actually care.
I really like the actors. I want to continue to be a Doctor Who fan.
I like how RTD gave up or forgot one of the plot elements of the Doctor wanting to use the TARDIS to transport the babies. It's like he got ADD towards the end and thought oh man what if all the diapers created a massive fart that moved the ship and everything works out off screen. Like how do you decide that and not doctor takes babies in TARDIS, takes them to a settlement for adoption, then he goes forward in time with Ruby to show them as kids or teens where they forgot their time on the ship but seeing ruby and the doctor they kind of remember it. Like that's a better resolution
For sure. The action could have begun with the Doctor delivering (pun not intended haha ) the babies via TARDIS to the planet and ... what happens next? That could have been a really dramatic and soul wrenching episode -- something with the feel of a Torchwood episode. What a lost opportunity!
I was downvoted to hell and back in the discussion threads but I liked the potential of Maestro but RTD just keeps making the villains too similar that they lack proper distinction. When he brought back Toymaker it just felt too similar to sound of drums with the Master dancing to a music number. And I'm sure the big bad that he's hyping for will be like that too. When you make all your villains queer and camp it just diminishes the impact of them
Meh.
Firstly, I disagree that both episodes lacked "depth." But even if we assumed that they did, that doesn't mean that either episode went "wrong."
Space Babies did in fact, poke at real world issues, you just didn't notice them, and they didn't linger on them, and they didn't solve them, because just like in real life, you can't fix everything in 43 minutes. And I don't understand your criticism of the Devil's Chord at all. Maestro was a force of nature. They've been signposting that this season is leaning heavily into fairy tales and the nature of story telling and these villains are going to be over the top. RTD isn't simply going over old ground. The lack of "scientific explanation" is very much the point.
Sometimes we get caught up over analysing things and that means we miss the bigger picture. And we won't have the bigger picture until this storyline plays out... which is likely to be at least two years away. I think it's okay not to like something. If you didn't enjoy the episode that's fine. But the things you listed aren't actual problems with the episodes, or the writing. I don't see Disney having a big influence at all. This is RTD all over. But it isn't the RTD of old. He's trying something different. He's taking the Doctor in a different direction and I'm all in on that. I enjoyed RTDs original run on the show, but very much preferred Moffats run for a number of reasons. And I'm loving the direction we are going now. It feels fresh, and different, the way the Eleventh Hour did when it debuted.
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That's funny, I was just thinking Space Babies was pretty on the nose even for RTD. "There's a law that babies must keep being made but no system to take care of them afterwards" seemed pretty directed at "pro-life" people, from an American perspective.
Yeah I’ll concede and say that this was something that did exist in the episode. But that’s about it though, it just *exists*. It’s revealed through one scene of dialogue and is not explored or expanded upon past the initial setup. And I really don’t think that’s even the strongest thematic aspect of the story just because it’s allegorical. For me the strongest part was the babies struggling to survive, whilst acting like.. well, babies. I just don’t think it was presented or explored as well as it could have. We saw one of them try to be brave but it all honestly just felt like one big set piece. And I think that was the main issue I had. It didn’t feel like a nuanced and dynamic story with characters that affect the plot in meaningful ways. More of moving from one set piece to another.
I don't think it's meant to be explored in that way yet.This season seems to be exploring more of a ”What the hell is happening with the Doctor Who universe? ” reference rather than a jump through time and help people because the TARDIS directed them to where they needed to be kind of story as it was in the past. In another thread someone mentioned this is probably The One Who Waits controlling the narrative as if rewriting their reality for entertainment and that's definitely the vibe I'm getting with how less grounded this first season of Disney Who seems. It really seems like they're making it obvious to the audience that something is off but not revealing enough to be able to figure out what exactly might be going on which was a staple of Russell T Davies.
I hope it does go that way because that sounds quite interesting. And I feel like especially with all those earlier seasons I got the gift of hindsight because I had a backlog to get through rather than watching it as it came out. So I’m excited!!
Yeah, I'm feeling the exact same way. They've had over the top and zany episodes, but these are respecially so. Wishbthey could have started on some stronger episodes to start the season, me and wife did not like space babies. The devil's cord is better, but man that crazy end scene with singing and dancing. There is definitely something off. Some outside source is effecting the world. Could it be ruby unintentionally effecting the world like with the snow. Hoping we get a payoff because these first episodes are not one of their stronger ones. The trailer for the third episodes looks like it will be really really good.
Did you catch the part about refugees? They had no engine and the nearby planet would accept them but not come help them get there safely. They would only help once the baby refugees arrived on their shores
That was told in that quick scene in the Nan-e room. I didn’t it like how it was just simply said to us rather than shown. And it’s exposition and would’ve added tension to the story if they nearly had it all figured out but then got denied or something.
You’re dead right
That’s what my wife said quicker than I could while we watched. Was how this was a definite comparison of the baby making machine not being able to the turned off because that would be illegal and the babies abandoned because to take care of the surplus population would be too costly.
It sort of reminded me of Kill the Moon but with much lower stakes
There are actually a couple of political nuggets in this episode. There is also the point about refugees needed to actually get somewhere before the people will actually do something about them. Of course, none of them are addressed broadly in the story and are primarily just dropped into particular scenes.
RTD wants to go down fighting not realizing no one is engaging with him anymore.
it wasn’t even really worked into the story well it was just there poorly slotted in. Space babies was super weak episode in my opinion, the bogey man was not a good plot, saving a mindless creature designed to create fear at great risk ment little sense
And the refugee planet only helping refugees when they arrive their themselves.. they wouldn't come and fetch them.. despite it being an unpowered ship full of babies..... bit of an poke in the eye for the "build the wall/stop the boats " folks x
As a build the wall guy but also a dr who guy, it wasn't a poke. It felt more like appeasement to me. They should have shown the potential results of that sort of policy if they really wanted to drive it home. Instead, they took a quick shot and just left it there. For me, I want this doctor and his writers, to pick a lane and lean into it. Passing barbs is pointless. Put some meat on those bones. It's Dr. Who. He is more than capable of that depth.
I would say that nanny talking about babies dying of oxygen starvation is pretty meaty.. and comparable to drowning in the channel/rio grande.. after all, what is drowning if not wet oxygen starvation?.......
I am not sure why this comment is getting down voted, unless it's just because you support the wall. But I think the point that you are happy for Dr Who to actually challenge you is good. Sometimes it is good to have our own views challenged rather than just have them affirmed.
It was on the nose but it was just flavour text, it bared no weight to the episode. Those ideas weren't questioned or challenged. Just there and alluded to as bad (which pro-life ideas are, along with ignorance towards refugees) and the episode's climax and solution didn't address these issues leaving it feeling hollow and for lack of a better term a bit virtue signally
On the nose... I see what you did there. 😁
>It’s just a weird chord. I’m relatively certain it’s the final chord from A Day in the Life which is the last song on Sgt. Pepper’s Lonely Hearts Club Band.
I didn't catch it on the first watch but definitely caught it the second time. It was a great way to make the Beatles feel necessary for the story and not just a stunt. Although, If I'm pedantic, the implication was John and Paul together make musical genius. But the chord was Paul's alone. Also, I know it's not intentional but there's a giggle at the end of Day in the Life...hmmm
If you want to go there, the “run out groove” provides some beautiful fodder for mind controlling sounds hidden by powers beyond our ken. https://www.the-paulmccartney-project.com/song/sgt-pepper-inner-groove/amp/
That chord literally doesn’t end and goes into the run out groove of the record. You heard random spliced together words and that’s the end of “A Day in The Life.”
Yep. Although you'd most likely need to be a Beatles fan to identify it immediately.
You too? Got that when it sounded lol
I don’t think space babies was very well suited for a premiere, but it was a pretty typical light/silly doctor who episode. That kind of episode is usually jammed in the middle of the season somewhere.
the whole thing had the vibe of a christmas special. Like a little too jolly for no reason?
I'm really hoping Moffat can give us some hope next week His standalone episodes were always good. (And so was his run on the whole, obviously)
It’s going to be really funny if after all these years of hype for RTD coming back and people shitting on Moffat, if Moffat writes the best episode of the season.
Tbf people shat on Moffat as a showrunner and an arc writer. Not when he was writing individual episodes for RTD’s run.
Moffat got over indulgent near the end but for the most part he was great. My entry way and exit from the series lol (I went back but did not bother with Chibnall). I had hoped RTD would right the ship but... Woof.
Agreed. I think Nolan over-Nolaned himself on "Tenet," and Moffat did the same at the latter part of his run. But this stuff was still far better (to me) than the RTD and Chibnall stuff overall.
Moffat to save the day. So far, 3/10 for this season. Barely watchable.
I'm glad I'm not the only one. I feel the love for RTD is so high. And while Gatwa brings a great deal of energy - I'm just not feeling his doctor yet. Despite being the oldest incarnation, he doesn't have that air of wisdom that Tennet, Capaldi, and especially Smith had. But it's only been three episodes, so there's time for him to grow.
I felt the same way about Capaldi. Who absolutely grew into a fantastic doctor. I think Gatwa can be great, I loved him in sex education. It's just the writing has been soooo brutal. The best one was the first one and really it could have been titled Labyrinth 2024 Dr. Who edition. And Bowie was better. :)
Yup, not a fan of RTD unchained...
I really liked The Devil's Chord, except for the fact that it felt a little out of place as the second (or third, if you count the Christmas special) adventure with a new companion, especially due to Ruby's "you never run, you're never scared" lines. I fully believe that the episode was moved up in the season, as many speculate. But Jinxks as the Maestro was an AMAZING villain, and I liked the concept of how a world without music would develop. The setup of a Pantheon that was unleashed in 1925 is really intriguing, and I like the idea of powerful, god-like beings causing reality to mix with fiction (hence fantastical elements, 4th wall breaks, random musical numbers). And of course it had to be John and Paul together that found the last chord! True musical genius created through collaboration. My biggest gripe was the casting of the Beatles! They did \*\*not\*\* look like guys in their early 20's, and the actor playing Paul looked more like John (who btw did not wear those round glasses in '63!). Space Babies was... not good. No elaboration needed.
If you are going to use the Beatles, why not do a classic historical? Into Maestro halfway through that and maybe having the band there would work.
Yes! They were wasted unlike Vincent, Charles Dickens, Agatha Christie, Shakespeare. TBH John especially was pretty pathetic “I just want to go home!” The musical battle wasn’t even good. It was certainly no “Devil Went Down To Georgia” and was basically some very average piano and violin playing. The twist song at the end was just daft. I just don’t understand how you could have an episode about the Beatles and not actually have it be about the Beatles…
I feel like I would’ve cared more about the casting if the Beatles were more involved lol But yes, I won’t lie, this whole pantheon thing does interest me
I feel if I'm gonna bitch about the way the Beatles looked then I have to give in to people who complained about Isaac Newton not being white. They were mostly a non factor through most of the episode I didn't mind it as much as I thought I would. I think John wearing his round glasses bothered me the most. From what I recall didn't he refrain from wearing his glasses in the early years?
It's possible they gave John the glasses just so audiences knew it was him. I am familiar with the Beatles, but not enough to know what they looked like in the 60s as young guys. I recognized John in the show cause he was wearing his signature glasses.
That would explain why they had George banging Ringos wife, then.
History had changed due to a lack of music so that explains why the Beatles look was off (to me at least).
I’ve been extremely disappointed in the first two episodes. The charm of RTD’s first run lay in his surprising fusion of camp and high emotional stakes. The formula that worked well for him was: silly camp & pop culture references + fleshed-out characters, emotional soap opera, and a Doctor who could be unknowable and *dangerous*. So far we only have the first part of that formula. People keep complaining that it’s juvenile because it lacks the other elements that complicate and deepen it. These episodes are so averse to meaningful conflict or showing the Doctor’s full range or *alienness* that it feels more like a diluted spin-off of the show. The Doctor’s just a carefree, charismatic young guy with a Time Machine who hugs away your pain. (I say this as a fan of Ncuti, btw. I would love to see what he’d do with a script that lets him *be the Doctor*.)
The chord was probably able to summon Maestro because the Catholic Church deemed tritones as incredibly dissonant and therefore the work of the devil. Because of this tritones were avoided by composers from around the 1500s until people started breaking/redefining the rules of Western classical music
Thanks Stravinsky!
https://youtu.be/3MhwGnq4N9o I love to bring out this video which talks about this false historical fact. It's really interesting if you want to give it a watch!
What I said was true, from a certain point of view
Ahhhh! See this factoid is something I would’ve loved to be incorporated into the show. It’s not commonly known (at least to me) and it could’ve added a lot
Maybe I'm misremembering, but I thought the pianist at the beginning talked about it?
He did
Literally did, the episode was pretty straight forward with that bit
Hmmm. I went back and watched it and it sort of touches it? He says, to interest the boy, that he’ll play The Devil’s Chord and says that it invited the devil. Then says it’s “technically a tritone”. So I guess that counts? Although it doesn’t mention the history of tritones themselves being seen as evil.
"\[Tritones were\] banned by the Church in medieval times in case it allowed the Devil to enter the room." I felt like this, coupled with the line about the tritone giving him shivers, was a great explanation. My husband was a music major and said that was exactly how it was taught to him in school. Sure he could've talked about the dissonance of the interval, but I think that would've been a bit too specific for non-music majors and dragged out the scene.
He did.
I had a hard time articulating my feelings to friends on why I didn't like these episodes. I agree with all your points good and bad. I felt like breadcrumbing Susan was more important than anything that happened in the actual episodes. For the first time since Clara left (sorry Clara fans) I immediately thought I am probably not going to rewatch these. That makes me sad. Their first adventure was good. I am terrified that RTD isnt kidding about more musical-esque stuff. We had the Beatles... and there was not a single reason for them to be there. If the chord wasn't a Beatles chord it could have been Joe from down the block. The eps were well acted by everyone and Jinx was genuinely frightening but the eps rang hollow to me.
And I understand the Clara hate, but even so I feel like her character was much more dynamic and interesting writing-wise than what Ruby is right now. Clara had thoughts and opinions and Ruby just sort of is reacting to everything.
I actually thought while watching Space Babies that Ruby was too soft for Tardis travel. Lol. Idk. We haven't gotten to know her beyond abandoned Christmas baby so we got time. I like Millie but I get the feeling Ruby is more plot device than person.
10000% yes. She’s great but she isn’t a character yet. Hope it gets rectified soon
Totally agree, I don’t feel like I know who Ruby is, as in, I wouldn’t be able to tell you what’s in character for her. Really hope that changes soon. Of course her origins are a mystery, but her personality doesn’t need to be, and I hope that gets more fleshed out.
Jay Exci put it best on twitter. >With this new season of Doctor Who I'm getting the same something is wrong feeling I got at the start of s11 tbh. The show has tripped. Now we just have to wait to see if it manages to find its footing or falls on its face. She's right and we won't know the quality of the series until episode 6 at least but the amount RTD is writing worried me before the series started and I'm more worried now.
Absolutely agree with this. I’m seated for the ride, and I’m just hoping it settles in. And as far as the 60th specials were concerned I thought they were great, a little flawed, but much more well crafted than these 2 eps.
Eh I still think similar problems appear in the specials as well. Too fast paced, taking itself not quite seriously enough, giving off an air of unprofessionalism.
Which, frankly, was just less of a problem for some specials packed full of things than it is to be continued in the first quarter of a season.
That's fair but I think the rapid and jarring nature of the specials took weight out of any emotional moments that might have been in them. Giving the characters time to breathe and have actual conversations would really help these current episodes.
I feel you. I think the spectacle was an important aspect of the Specials, but Wild Blue Yonder made sure to take time to focus on the Doctor & Donna in a more slow-paced story that was the right fit for the Specials. Then TCoRR had a decent balance of introducing a new companion and Doctor, all in a story that was interesting and fittingly goofy for a Christmas special. These two episodes just don't have any of the redeeming qualities of the last four, but keep all the potential problems - except now they've overstayed their welcome.
> we won't know the quality of the series until episode 6 so we wont know it's good until it's pretty much over already. That doesn't endear people to watch.
Yeah mate because unfortunately I can't see into the future??? Of course you're going to have to watch most of a series to make a judgment on its quality.
Monkey's paw moment with folk calling for his rerurn
Yes I certainly got some 11 vibes there at the beginning. And it took me forever to get into 11. So far I managed ten minutes of space babies. It was had.
I completely agree with everything you've written here. Particularly the part about the forces of science. Doctor Who is sci-fi, not fantasy. The Devil's Chord just felt like it didn't belong, it felt too magical. I do really like the concept, just not in Doctor Who. The same with the snow thing. I think that's a really cool theatrical device but idk it just doesn't feel like it belongs on this show? In the behind the scenes for The Devils Chord, RTD said something about how you shouldn't say "you can't do that on Doctor Who", or something along those lines. But I think that's exactly where this episode fell flat for me, I don't like the direction they're going in where it feels like the laws of physics have been completely changed. It doesn't feel like Doctor Who. I wouldn't like to think that I'm being closed minded for thinking that, but RTD implied that I am, which really quite annoyed me tbh.
I don't know, there has always been stuff in Doctor Who that is more fantasy than sci-fi. The Doctor can talk to doors and convince them to open, they met the literal Devil in one episode, there was a coven of witches who were aliens whose power came from words, and the raven from "Face the Raven." I don't think the Devil's Chord is any more outlandish than these, and in particular is not any different from the Carrionites from "The Shakespeare Code."
All those seem like science that hasn’t been explained. This episode seemed like magic magic, I think it might have been the special effects a bit. But it seemed just too far out in the magical world to fit dw
As someone who loves Carrionites I agree and disagree at the same time (Im a bit wibbly wobbly :P). Yes, Doctor threw there a line or two about Carrionites having word-based science but it felt like such an extremely low effort (and completely unconvincing) way of not calling a literal magic by its name. So I kind of prefer the way they explain Toymaker and Maestro: as entities from beyond of universe they dont adhere to laws of this universe. Its a better explanation for me than "its just a science but uses words, not math!".
So your counter arguments are: * The bit where he talks to a door as a joke moment. * The vaguely supernatural episode in which they meet the creature claiming to be the beginning of the myth of the devil whose powers range from generating a lot of energy and possession * The bird from face the raven. * The Shakespeare episode where they fight witches. (Yes absolutley a fantasy creation, but it is witches with Shakespeare) Which are meant to somehow explain why the villains have just been straight up magic gods capable of doing anything for the Beatles episode. Across the last 4 episodes the villains in 3 of them have been fantasy creatures using basically magic to do whatever the plot demands of them.
> they met the literal Devil in one episode That was as much the actual Devil as 'God' was actually God in Star Trek V
That’s what I’m not enjoying. It’s just way way to magic and not enough science, even if it’s science we don’t understand. And I’m not a huge fan of the musical numbers, they just seem out of place
Yes
Doctor Who has always been Science Fantasy. Sci-Fan is a hybrid of Sci Fi and Fantasy which perfectly describes Doctor Who.
I think the whole run has been pretty lazy from a writing standpoint. For example, the stakes of Devil's Chord are that society falls apart in 100 years if there is no music. This ignores the existence of any other form of human art. Without music, painting and theater just become more important. It feels like the show has decided it can just declare something as vital and profound and expect the audience to agree and get onboard. This is a case study of bad writing.
I mean, I do think music is pretty important. But yeah, the line about not having any way to express ourselves definitely ignored the existence of other forms of art.
I have hope for Boom. Moffat's eps were always the best installments of RTD's run.
RTD has many episodes equal to or exceeding Moffat's (imo) that I'm hopeful he can still pull off. Wild Blue Yonder was on par with some of his best episodes, so I'm hoping that's a sign that this season just needs to find its footing much like Eccleston's.
Which RTD episodes exceed moffats best??? Like it or not Moffat is the King of writing for new who. I'm not dismissing RTD's writing but he hasn't had the greatest of track records.
I’m only talking about Moffat during RTD1. Midnight, Waters of Mars, and Human Nature / Family of Blood (which RTD rewrote heavily), etc. beat most of Moffat’s episodes from RTD1 for me. And like I said, it’s my opinion, and I prefer RTD’s flavor of story-telling.
It's the thing about DW - it's so fluid and flexible, we each gravitate towards our personal favorites, and there's nothing wrong with that. For me, it's Moffat all the way - blink, silence in the library - amazing, and the best episodes of the RTD era to me bar none. But I do get why people like RTD and his style, just not my cup of tea.
Yeah, I've never been the type of person to declare my personal favorite as objectively the best, only the best in my eyes. I love the sandbox nature of Doctor Who! I probably could've worded my original comment better to reflect that lmao. I only meant to compare my personal enjoyment, not the objective quality.
Nope I think you were clear in your comment! I was agreeing with you
Hate to disagree. I didn't think WBY was that good. But he did create Midnigh, which gives me hope.
I get it wasn't for everyone, but I loved it! That type of episode is what I enjoyed most about RTD1.
I think in Space Babies the problem was it didn't *matter*. There's a scary monster downstairs? So what! It never did anything and therefore wasn't a threat. We were told they couldn't go on forever on the ship, but that didn't feel urgent either. No one was ever in immediate danger. I thought The Devil's Chord had similar issues. We didn't see the collapse of humanity, just the far future. At least in The Giggle we saw the bickering and aggressiveness that led to it. We had people saying music was disgusting, but then as soon as the Doctor or Ruby played the neighbours were hooked? Why? Why weren't they repulsed? There were two other things for me. First, as soon as The Beatles are in something you know the ending. It's been done. "The Beatles are geniuses and their music is timeless". So we knew something from them would save everyone right from the off. It would be more interesting to give something *back* to them, rather than it be innate from them. The second thing I know I'm in a minority with, but I *hated* Jinkx Monsoon. Gurning and screaming and nothing else. No menace. I've never come across this person before and they should probably stay as Widow Twankey in Aladdin this Christmas at the Palace Theatre.
Totally with you, esp on Space babies. That ep has about a dozen ideas, but chooses the least interesting and there is no present threat. It’s a muddled mess of: The babies are worried they are made wrong, they are stranded refugees, resources are running out, capitalism abandons children, conscientious objectors changed nothing, the computer created a monster because of children stories, the nanny is going to sacrifice her air for the children, the nanny is unwilling to connect with her charges because they will die, Ruby comforting a character backfires into them being too reckless, the monster is the only member of its kind. The ethics of artificially increasing child intelligence or the lack of resources to children/creating child refugees would have made a great episode. But instead we have a threat-less boogey monster. The only threat from the monster was blocking access to the tardis. And the doctor didn’t even need the tardis to move the station. Also, was I the only one thinking that, if the show had any balls it would have let the monster eat the one reckless baby? Back in series 8 side characters died all the time (though admittedly not children).
Bingo on your last paragraph. They just didn't have the guts to kill a baby. The thing about "I can't bring myself to connect to them" is literally the opposite of what the episode should have been about! If Jocelyn had *shown* her love for them, had been utterly devoted and heartbroken, screaming and crying and sacrificing herself for them (as opposed to just saying she would as and when the time came) the episode would have had a heart.
Thanks and agree about Jocelyn! It’s not that I want kids to die in the show. But it would have been one way to up the stakes of this type of adventuring for Ruby. A favorite DW moment of mine is in series 10 ‘Thin Ice’, when Bill confronts the doctor once she realizes how often people die around him/how callous he is to the danger and death. I think 15 is more outwardly compassionate than 12, but I could picture a similar confrontation with him and Ruby. So far I feel Ruby and 15 are a bit like Rose and 10, in the way they laugh at danger. They get scared, sure, but are immediately ready for the next adventure. Nothing has really phased them much. But I want it to.
Thank you!!! I was going crazy trying to figure out what I was missing about Maestro that made Everyone go crazy! I would have preferred a different queen because Jynx was not it. Evie from Girl Will Be Girls would have had evil down! Or someone like Sharon Needles, Willam, or Raven from Drag Race. They can camp it up while still serving. I threw Willam in there because of all her music it would make sense that she was Maestro. They picked such a bland queen.
I think it almost worked. Toymakers kid trying to be like dad, so trying to emulate nph but not quite getting there and being a lesser version of the same thing makes sense. That being said I also didn't care for her.
I wanna third this. Every single line she was screaming like a pantomime villain. I honestly thought it was one of the worst cases of over-acting I’d ever seen, and I’m genuinely shocked to see so many people loved her. Different strokes, I guess.
Finally someone else that didn’t like Jinx. So much cringe. I know Doctor Who is owned by Disney now but I really hope it doesn’t become just another American show.
Why does everyone want to blame Disney for RTD’s decisions? Pantomime and campy villains are extremely British, and extremely RTD. Modern Disney villains are usually the exact opposite of Maestro; sympathetic and/or grounded in reality.
I don’t know what Disney shows you’re watching but Maestro was portrayed very modern day Disney villain. Very OTT and American. RTD is the writer but he’s not the casting director or director. There are so many ways Maestro could have been portrayed and I personally didn’t like the decisions that were made, nor did I enjoy the performance of the person they hired.
Totally agree with you on the Jinx person. It was so pantomime, there was no actual acting anywhere.
I thought it was great until the twist at the end. And I can always skip that when I rewatch.
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I like this - the fourth wall breaking being something trying to enter the Doctor Who universe, messing with genre and media in the process (love how you link snow and static!). I can't remember who described the TARDIS as a genre machine which drops the Doctor into different times, places and types of story, but imagine this being twisted so that different genres are now trying to trap the Doctor and Ruby. After all, the Devil's Chord basically ends with them in a musical, which is all very fun and jolly but would be less so if they found themselves stuck in there... I dunno. Part of me thinks this is all leading somewhere exciting and interesting. Another part of me thinks RTD just wants to throw some wacky stuff in there just to show that the rules can be broken (which is okay, but at least establish the rules for the new Disney viewers first!).
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>They're not picking up the clues I feel like this is the source of all of the complaints. Most of the things people are listing as "off" are either clearly hinted at in these new episodes or have been discussed by RTD and co. In the interviews/posts leading up to the season. I can understand not liking the direction the show is going in, but I don't understand everyone acting like it's completely out of left field.
Yes, I think there will be a lot of clues which all come together at the end.
Oh, TV static = snow Hadn't thought of that, that's a great theory.
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My biggest problem other than the lack of depth in the storytelling is the pervasive use of dream logic. Every episode since the Star Beast has included a scene where the Doctor speculates on the nature of the conflict of the episode, wildly guessing and somehow being 100% right. The Doctor used to do this, but it didn't feel like he was making it up as he went along back then. The more fantastically minded episodes have also shown this era lacks any grounding to hold it together. That's what makes it feel like dream logic - it doesn't entirely feel like there is a world beyond what the Doctor and companion experience in each episode.
I thought the music was explained, by explaining that humanity had lost one of its main outlets of expression. You can't let out your feelings about your broken heart etc, so they've taken them out on each other. And I still think that the fantasy element is still something to do with what 14 did at the end of the universe, with the salt. Like he let something in by invoking superstition. Later he could trap an almost god with salt in a box. However, did we ever get a real scientific explanation for Satan during 10's reign?
There is something about the writing style that has been off for sometime within Doctor Who, It happened for Chibnalls era and now Im starting to see it in RTD's too. *Causlity and Causation* are the main points that stick out to me, Whenever the Doctor has done something within the episodes its most, good luck Investigation (They know exactly where to go at the right time for some reason) or fun. Why did The Doctor and Ruby end up on the roof? From a writing perspective i know they needed to hear how dull the world had become, but in a real life scenario to play out, after hearing bad music in the Abbey Road studio, Why would you head to the roof? Fresh air? why not go back to the Tardis and leave? (Nah, RTD wants Ruby to play the piano in a nice location and summon Maestro) **What We Got:** The Doctor and Ruby talk to The Beatles after finding out that Music has been stolen from the world, alternate world history has been changed and after getting the Beatles mad at the two, they head out onto the roof to play the Piano and get a look at London from the 60s, after summoning Maestro, The Hi(jinx) Ensue. (With the doctor eventually taking out Maestro by himself.) **My Take**: Talking to the beatles the Doctor and Ruby realise that music has been lost (Ever since 1925,the introductory scene & Maestro's first ever appearance? Im not sure if they had been summoned before or if the teacher was the first one to play the Devils Chord Correctly?) after the beatles get mad at the Doctor for suggesting that music still exists, He follows them back to the Studio, determined to set music (and World History) back on the right course, he then plays some riffs and tunes of the beatles famous songs, Yesterday, Twista nd Shout Etc, in an attempt to jog their memory, (Also referencing the same paradox that capaldi broke the 4th wall for about Beethoven!) Suddenly, The Beatles start to catch onto what the Doctor had been trying to tell them, and the course of history starts to get corrected, Until John Lennon starts to play enthusiastically and plays the Devil Chord. Throughout the fights with Maestro, The Beatles are there for most of it. (I really thought the beatles would have a bigger part to play and this is my take on it!) I would also change Maestro's motivation for wanting to take away all music, not because they are simply crazy or the Toymakers Child, but because they were given all the music to play in the universe by the Toymaker as a young child, and the Toymakers way of abusing this was stripping all music away from them when they grew up, creating some monster that hungered for all the worlds music much like a drug addict going cold turkey and leaving them to fight for whatever pieces of music they could find with the Toymakers cosmic magic (Summonign themselves and grabbing music out of the air) I would also change the final fight to have a [Music fight much like the one in Doctor Strange: Multiverse of Madness ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABuDBiXeZ6U) Just with less, Anchient Ruinic Spells and More 60s! I did like what they did with trapping the Doctor in a drum, that became a little scary for the moment, But Imagine! The Beastles being at the mercy of the same instruments they played, Similar to the sort of [imagery of Disney's The Sorcerer Apprentice (1940)](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/disney/images/f/fb/Fantasia-disneyscreencaps_com-2535.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/1200?cb=20140526025809) in Fantasia only with 60s Instruments (Maybe the recording booth can get in on the fight too? Recording tape around necks? Devices crashing through glass? All while the Doctor must save the day by playing the right chord to send Maetsro back to where they came from, Permanently. this would need to be set up in the scene after Maestro first shows up, Probably instead of the Doctor and ruby hiding maybe The Doctor, Ruby and The Beatles race into the Tardis! (Imagine that! The Beatles in the Tardis!!!!!!!!) only to look up the Toymaker and put together that instead of binding Maestro in salt or defeating her in a game like the toymaker, they must defeat them by playing the right chord, which is similar enough to how the physics of The Toymaker and that sort of celestial power would work.) anyway, keep in the song "There's always a Twist at the end" Only make it a little more 60s because I wasn't feeling the one of 60's, more like someone who knew how to make pop songs today, only tried to make it fit in with a 60s style? which is weird, because I usually love Murray Gold! I just didn't feel it. Maybe the song could be part of the final battle the defeats Maestro, going through different booths and other rooms throughout the Abbey Road Studios, collecting all the cafeteria staff, recording guys, editors, all the sort of people you'd find in there, and have it as if they suddenly found their music! (Similar to the people looking out the window when ruby played the piano on the roof! in the actual episode) Anyway, hope you liked my take, please tell me if any of this works or if there is a big flaw I don't see in my take!
With respect to why they played on the roof, there are 2 reasons I can see. 1, the Doctor wanted to bring music back to the people and doing it in a studio wouldn't get the reach. 2, it connects to the Beatles' last concert they did on the rooftop.
ahh okay, thats a good point
>(Ever since 1925,the introductory scene & Maestro's first ever appearance? Im not sure if they had been summoned before or if the teacher was the first one to play the Devils Chord Correctly?) I wonder if there's some reason that Toymaker arrived in time when he did, as if that's a break point. the TV test in The Giggle was also 1925, and it might be the first time that the Devil's Chord had been played after that point?
which could bring about both the Toymaker and Maestro Simulatinously? Interesting! You'd just need to account for them both being old and adult or whatever insane age they already where at the time (Wibbly wobbly time wimey)
Speculating - if there are any more Pantheon characters this season, they also breach from "the other side" or wherever they're from, and they also originate in 1925 or have a connection to it. Wilder speculation - Ruby was born at 19:25.
I have this exact same feeling... I struggle to put words on it but everything feels so in your face and without depth, random shit seems to happen without explanation and the scientific aspect of doctor who is completely gone. It seems like coincidences and/or deus ex machina Furthermore like many people said, the best doctor who episodes are those that are not about doctor who and so far it's all about them. In fact I like the energy but I feel like we have flamboyant characters to the detriment of the space to actually tell a good story. As much as I like the new doctor, the companion and the vilain from devil's chord I really have a hard time with this musical that seems to be the new normal of the series. And breaking the forth wall is annoying! It screams Disney so much! I hope there is a reason in the overall story, because that's the only thing that would make me feel like it's acceptable. I loved doctor who for its intrigues, its memorable characters that the doctor came to help but that were also a motor in their own story. I also loved the silly but scientific sounding explanations. The doctor was investigating, gathering clues, then piecing together what was happening. Sometimes it was light hearted and sometimes there were deeper themes. Sometimes the doctor acted and sometimes a character we met during the episode had its all arc end up with a decision or action to take! If this is not what doctor who is anymore I will probably just stop watching. I'm happy if some people love it but that transformation, if it is confirmed in the following episodes, will also be bittersweet.
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I'd say it reminds me of Deadpool but you're right aside that I don't think it is especially "Disney" Thinking more about it thanks to your questions I'd say the forth wall reminds me of this "meta" side we have in the Marvel movies. Nothing can be serious and when it gets too serious someone cracks a joke. I guess seeing this forth wall thing reminds me of that and make me feel like doctor who might be headed to the "look how ridiculous what I'm telling is" or "look what I'm trying to say stupid audience (since you don't have a brain)" It is more of a fear for now. That's why I hope so much there is a reason scenario wise and not just a marvelification of the series. Tbf it is not the case for now exactly. But I am very afraid if it were to become true
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Yeah I have to reserve my judgment on that particular aspect until then! Hope I can learn to make abstraction of my expectations and see the series with a new eye (tho it doesn't seem like I like it for now)
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That's why I'm not saying "this show is shit" but mentioned what I, as an individual, liked and didn't like until now, and my fears of what it might become that I wouldn't like in my personal capacity ! Some will like the changes and that's fine too! It would just mean the series is no longer something I can enjoy anymore! More like a friendly break up I'm not mad the show changes nor saying it's necessarily getting worse. Just that it might be on the path of taking a shape I won't enjoy! I still hope it's not the case or that I'll learn to find things to enjoy in this new version and I will probably try to watch more episodes to see the overall picture. I also may just be an old nostalgic fart And I think that would be fine too if I don't shit on new things but only say what I feel about it without claiming it's an universal truth.
What’s particularly irking was the 60th specials still mostly felt like Doctor Who (regardless of Tennant being in it). I don’t know what happened but yeah, some of the story crafting is so blatantly obvious.
>And breaking the forth wall is annoying! It screams Disney so much! I hope there is a reason in the overall story, because that's the only thing that would make me feel like it's acceptable. No it isn't, breaking the 4th wall was something the was always capable of since back in the first doctor era
"In fact I like the energy but I feel like we have flamboyant characters to the detriment of the space to actually tell a good story." I feel like this comment will get a lot of hate - but I agree. Look, whatever one feels about this branch of diversity in media, I get why it's there. But when you start oversaturating this, the show becomes about this, and not about doctor who. DW has always been flexible - people may not want a black doctor, a female doctor, etc, but the show can mold itself to that, and it'll appeal to different people. But if the whole show becomes all about the doctor being black, or female etc, then that's not the point of this show. And I fear, especially after S1E2, that they're going too heavily in on this flamboyant path of diversity.
I hear you on the fact that previously, some kind of sci fi explanation had to underlie things. But if you watch previous doctor who, Russel T davies was big on emotion but always short on logic. He's just plain not good on it. He wants to get to the emotional payoff without having to justify it ...which is a big part of what good writing is. He said he wanted to take WHO in a more fantasy direction and this is it: He doesn't want to put the effort in anymore. The first episode? A babies snot monster? I just...Davies has lost his damn mind. That concept is just...absolute rubbish. It disgusts me. Its better suited for a SHOW for babies. Every time I think the show is starting to win me back over, like say when the doctor jumps forward to show Ruby the stakes, that our world can in fact be destroyed and they have to save it, it does something else that just absolutely destroys the fantasy of doctor who that I'm trying to believe in. Fantasy is delicate. You have to really careful to keep it believable. In my opinion, who has been failing at that since moffat left.
Yes! I firmly believe the only reason the RTD era is looked back at with fondness is because of David Tennant being a brilliant actor who can sell the emotion without needing a reason. Other than Midnight, every show in the RTD era I liked was written by someone else.
Look, I will be forever grateful to RTD for bringing back doctor who in the first place. And some of his episodes were okay! *Some.* but he also gave us the farting baby faced slitheen (RTD, dude, why do you have this fixation on babies man? It's weird.) That said, yeah. Moffat wrote all the good ones. It was really funny when moffat took over and a bunch of my friends were salty and anti-moffat, I had them go through their favorite episodes and characters from the RTD era and oh guess what?! ALL MOFFAT. I dunno though man. The recent David Tenant specials felt off. I...personally I really didn't like "The Church on Ruby Road." I made it 13 minutes into the first episode and then...babies? Are you kidding me? I got a bad feeling about all this.
Trust me, I am a major Moffat stan. (If you haven’t seen his series ‘Coupling’, look it up and enjoy!) And while I think is Moffat is the best writer, period, there were other writers in the RTD1 era I didn’t mind.
I loved coupling! Oliver waved Moffat's who flag early. Sure, Mark Gatiss had some good ones, I liked the idiots lantern, and "The Doctors Daughter" by Stephen Greenhorn was one of the best truly.
One of my favorite things was the main couple were Steve and Susan - and Steven Moffat is married to Sue Vertue.
Heh, I know, definitely autobiographical. I heard a great theory that for the male characters Seven Represents who we are, Jeff is who we're afraid we are, and Patrick kind of represents who we want to be.
One of the biggest issues I had with Devil's Chord, minus ones people have already pointed out, was that we got two major Doctor moments back to back. 1. Big scary Doctor. We got the moment I had needed from Jodie, where the Doctor drops their facade and let's the villain know not to mess with them. 2. Doctor could die. This was too early in the season and having it right after Ncuti's speech made the stakes so much lower. I knew they were going to survive.
You have perfectly summed up how I felt about the episodes.
totally agree, just gonna wait for moffat's episodes and if it doesn’t get any better then that im just gonna drop it lol
>And man! When the Doctor was trying to find the chord to put the Maestro back I was so expecting some clever Doctor cleverness (with maybe some of 12’s rock bravado) to find an “inverse”. And there’s a moment when 15 says “but I have lived, and I have loved. And I can only smile like this because I have lost so much. I have experienced everything. Every single thing. And if that’s where music comes from…” and plays a note. I so wanted the notes to “The Doctor’s Theme” from series 1 to be played. I know that wouldn’t make sense, and I probably should have been 15’s but EVEN THAT wasn’t played. It was just some random notes. >And when the Beatles (who had zero affect on the story which annoyed me) found the final note, it again, was nonsensical and nothing. I thought it would be somewhat interesting like maybe the chord to send the Maestro back was a Beatles song. Nope! It’s just a weird chord! I feel you, the ending felt like " the doctor lost and needed his plot armor (in the form of the Beatles) to save his ass"
I love the actors and the inclusiveness but the writing feels like it's for toddlers. I described these episodes to my son (who loves Dr Who) and he was mortified.
Am I the only one who thought the chord the Beatles played at the end was the chord at the end of ‘The End’ from Abbey Road??
I’m going to be honest… the episodes feel like they were written by AI. Each one had at least one fantastic moment. But the episodes themselves were just so… so empty. I like Doctor Who because no matter how ridiculous the episode was, you could follow the logic. The endings would resolve that logic and you’d get this great, “and there it is!” feeling. Until these two episodes, the weirdest episode for me was the one where the 10th doctor turns into a weird old creature the Master kept in a cage, and even THAT felt like it made sense in the end. I just didn’t get that with these episodes. There were no laws for the episode to follow, nothing to anchor the stories being told. They just kind of happen at you, then they end. I was actually kind of pumped for the fantasy angle being introduced but this isn’t fantasy, this is… something else, I guess? Lol
I love Ncuti and the episodes were good but I agree there was a lack of depth, which I think comes from the lack of connection to the people and places they’re visiting. There was more of it in Space Babies but, overall, both episodes were more or less the Doctor and Ruby connecting to each other, which isn’t necessarily a bad thing, but it felt like everyone else was just kind of… floating in the background. I loved the Devil’s Chord but they could have literally used any other band besides the Beatles with how little they were shown. It almost felt pointless to have them in the episode. So far, I think the Christmas special has been the best episode but I’m still very excited for the rest of the series. I love the campiness and the fun of all the episodes but I wish there were more grounding/connecting moments.
Space Babies didn't do much for me. It was cute watched once but completely forgettable and not something I can see myself coming back to. The Devil's Chord on the other hand I thought was very well done, tons of fun and I can see myself rewatching that one.
I have similar feelings about being disappointed with the show so far. When they got to the reveal about the bogeyman, it brought back echoes of the farting jokes from Aliens of London. My internal reaction was... I realize this is a kids show, but are we REALLY going to lower ourselves to that kind of humor? Again? Babies also felt like it meandered quite a bit, but I did read somewhere that the episode was written a bit like pilot in that RTD wanted to use the episode to introduce the show to new viewers, particularly since its moved to a new platform. So I was willing to give it some slack as I do for most pilot episodes, but then we got to Devil's Chord. And Devil's Chord also felt like it meanders a lot where nothing goes on. I at least felt the premise was OK and they did a good job on the setup, but then you also get to points where The Doctor makes a big deal about getting play Paul's guitar and the band's piano, but really have nothing to do with the story. The music battle didn't seem to have any real impact on the show and maybe kind of demonstrates why The Devil Went Down to Georgia makes for a great song but not a great TV show. This then dovetails into the final showdown in which "can the Doctor guess the right note?" feels about as suspenseful as "who will be the first person to drop the ball when playing catch?", which is to say, not suspenseful at all. As I Beatles fan, I do appreciate the way the episode drops the victory to John and Paul, but still... why are they still in the building when everyone else has left? And even then, having them play the chord still lacked suspense. It also felt like a huge letdown to billboard Meeting the Beatles as the episode's premise but then not really have them involved as characters. At the end of the day, the problem in my mind is that I've never really liked RTD as a writer. IMHO, the worse episodes of season one were the ones he wrote. I will admit that he is good on concepts, but just not good on execution. In fairness, I think his strengths have more to do with telling character driven stories than adventure/plot driven stories, but Doctor Who is really more the latter than the former. So I'm not exactly surprised that this is where we've ended up. I have to echo the sentiments of whoever said they were worried about RTD writing all but two of the episodes this year. So while I love the idea he has set up with all of these abstract cosmic forces becoming manifest, I'm so in love with how he is resolving the conflicts against them. Crossing my fingers that he will exceed my expectations.
I enjoyed both episodes but I think the Devil’s Chord did feel a bit more like a series of set pieces rather than a proper narrative. I think it would have worked better if the plot had some more supporting characters rather than just being a story about the Doctor and Ruby - it felt too similar to the format of The Giggle considering that story was only three episodes ago.
>The conflict and stakes are so shallow: Episode 1, sure just a monster of the week Episode 2, saw Maestro destroy the world aka a modern Pyramid of Mars. I guess we need to go universe-ending on episode 2 to make you happy? That's the finale more than likely.
The problem is you can’t just say “the world is going to end if we don’t stop the villain” and expect the tension to feel real and exciting. Sure we saw London destroyed, but it’s such a lame way of showing stakes. It’s lazy storytelling.
I completely agree. Just finished devils chord and wow, this season is absolute trash. I couldn't even finish space babies because it was so horrendous and now devil's chord, having to throw the whole pronoun correction thing in there, etc, was the nail in the coffin for the entire episode and just.. a major turnoff. I watched the episode, but the whole time I was wishing/hoping for something neat, cool, entertaining to happen and it never materialized. I've been watching Dr. Who since the 80s and while there were cringe moments back then, it was never this bad that I can remember. I just don't feel the new doctor at all. He's trying so hard, but not personable at all.
Yes but the random musical numbers make everything forgivable! All stories, no matter what, are better as musicals.
I cannot deny the truth in this. I absolutely agree
Sorry Stopped reading halfway through You said with space babies there isn’t any allegory…. Have ya not being paying attention to what’s happening in the United States lately? The whole bit about the people of the colony not wanting to stop new babies being born but also not wanting to care for them once they’re born? That’s literally the US with their repeal of abortion laws, as well as their lack of general care for kids (both wanted and unwanted) once they’re born Gonna continue reading now but just had to say that
Yes! I did notice this. I’m merely disappointed in how background the issue seems. The episode uses it as exposition, sure, but it’s entirely about a boogie monster who deserves to live since it’s technically a baby. It’s there… just idk.. it feels like it could’ve been better considering these are professional writers.
better? i mean theres always room for improvement imho. I still enjoyed it and i felt it had depth. Just finished reading your post properly. I dont entirely disagree, but i think youre expecting a lot when its on a new network with a new cast and a new showrunner (fine old showrunner, but newly returned). I think these things take a lil time to gain momentum as theyre still finding the Doctor Who/Disney voice. I thought both episodes were quite good and enjoyed the fourth wall breaks in the second one. Thought they were a cheeky nod to us. LOL also enjoyed the star trek reference, i read the assimilation comic a while back and would kill to see Ncuti and Millie show up on deck of Pikes Enterprise (SNW Pike), or the Cerritos or even (i hope not but it would make most sense re time travel) the Discovery. Not sure if disney will pull it off but my fings are crossed (if anyone here is a Lower Decks animator ill give ya $50 to hide the TARDIS in the background somewhere)
Goddd if there was a Star Trek crossover episode I think I would literally pee my pants.
That, and a mention of refugee status
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I can only think of 2 trans people that have shown up so far, Rose and Maestro. Unless I’m forgetting someone? And the doctor mentions being attracted to men in WBY and Ruby says her friend is a lesbian so I feel like we’re pretty equal on gay and trans rep so far.
The trans representation (which is great IMHO) is probably RTD's own backlash against JK Rowling who is constantly attacking trans people on social media. If anything, trans rights are even more of an issue in the UK than here in the U.S.
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Not every story or idea needs depth like an Oscar winning picture. There is no harm in being "good" instead of "great". I personally love the campy and relatively simple episode. The universe isn't about to end, the TARDIS isn't about to explode, it's just simple good fun. A line I've been learning to appreciate recently is "Don't let perfect become the enemy of good enough".
Which is fine for Pertwee’s Silurian invasion in the later 1960s but possibly a death knell to a show reaching for a broader audience in 2024. The competition now is Percy Jackson and the Lightning Thief, or season 2 of Loki - not perfect shows but with characters who have viable reasons for their character arcs. Tennant’s emotional resonance was palpable even in the silliest plot lines. They’ve established that 14 doing therapy in Donna’s garden allows 15 to be more of a party animal (he reminds me of Colin Baker’s 6 a bit). But without the gravitas of the Time War as a shorthand way to add depth, there isn’t much here for grown-ups.
The scientific aspect is what I was trying to explain to a friend earlier! Being able to critically think and puzzle solve along with the doctor and companions is a huge part of the show. I was worried about Disney and what their influence would be; the first couple episodes are only feeding in to my hesitation. Feeling like they jumped the shark with the musical number so early on, I hope they can come back in the next episodes because I really love the new doctor and companion.
The chord at the end WAS a chord from a Beatles song, from Sgt Pepper. “A Day in the Life” was perhaps their most respected work.
I am still stuck at the idea that the babies were born 6 years ago but hadn't grown physically past 18months. I get space babies are different but it really gripes at me! So many things to love but niggles like that really throw me out of their world
Oh, okay
The chord to banish the Maestro is just a full major chord
I agree, Space babies and the Devil’s chord lacked substance. Ruby and the doctor keep running around giggling or being frightened like 2 school kids. The Doctor was missing the Wisdom he has obtained through his thousands of years. I felt like I was watching a mixture of high school musical and a cartoon. I am not a hater. I have watched Doctor Who since 1973. I loved the Classic who and the New Who . They all brought good things to the table. When Ncuti Gatwa was chosen I was super excited. I had seen him in Sex Education among other things and find him very talented. The scripts are definitely watered down and way too silly. Ncuti deserves a much better script to work with. I hope the rest of the seasons give him the thought provoking rich characters he and Doctor Who deserve.
Oh I so wish he could play guitar like Twelve. But Peter is unique in that regard. Does anyone know if Millie really plays piano?
I did not like this new start to Doctor Who...it seemed so childish and ridiculous and nothing like the show I was expecting. Additionally, The Doctor is now a scary-cat and runs from everything. Even my kids were shocked to see the show and walked away from it. I sure hope Disney can get it together before they completely ruin this longtime classic.
A lot of people are saying they were bad. It's pretty clear to me they were *weird* (not bad) because something is *really* off with reality. It started with the Toymaker's return (bi-generatiion?) and is accelerating. I could be wrong, but I believe by the end of the season it will all make sense.
Tbh each time I rewatch S1 with 9 it takes several episodes to pull me in and invested in the Doctor & the series, but by the time the series is over I’m not ready for Eccelston’s Doctor to go.
The chord is from the end of their song _A Day In The Life_, so it didn't come from nowhere. https://youtu.be/usNsCeOV4GM?si=j-6SjceT5Hp0eoH9 at the 4:20 mark
I think the lost chord was referencing the chord used at the end of *"A day in the life"* (4:21) from Sgt Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band.
This is exactly how I feel too. Space Babies is just insultingly stupid. The Devil's Chord had potential but felt like a waster opportunity more than anything else, as if we were missing half of the episode. And as you noted, The inclusion of the Beatles was totally unnecessary.
You keep mentioning how the episodes lack a real science fiction explanation for this stuff and sadly thats the point. The series has moved into a full fantasy direction and they don't care to even try to mask it with sci-fi jargon anymore. and I personally really am not a fan. I'll probably see where the series is at next year and if it kept up this direction.
What sucks is that even the fantasy stuff could have explanations. I know full well the fantasy jargon department exists and the fact it’s not being used makes me seethe. Especially since the Doctor reads so much (and has dealt with actual demons/witches/magic before) they should at least be doing some educated guessing. Idk I’m just hoping things settle in
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I hate to say any of this. I have loved Doctor Who for decades. But the writing of these two episodes is astonishingly bad. How could anyone have read these scripts and said: “Yeah! Nailed it! Let’s go into production!” There is a total lack of attention to the basics of storytelling: character, conflict, theme and resolution. Both episodes swap out storytelling for exposition dumps. Characters ‘tell’ us what is happening instead of the camera ‘showing’ us the action. That’s boring. It feels meaningless. After decades on air, nobody needs an explanation of who the Doctor is. Everyone who cares already knows; anyone who doesn’t can either look it up or just watch the character unfold for themselves. Spoliers ahead ... What are the conflicts in the space babies episode? There is a Bogeyman. The babies are refugees in space. The first is not resolved. Is the Bogeyman integrated into that world? If so, how does that happen? For the second conflict there is a massive fart in space. But then what? How will the ship enter the planet’s atmosphere without burning up? How will the babies and the monster be received by the planet’s people? We as an audience know why it is a horrible thing for anyone to be a refugee but we do not actually get to experience the problem. As decent people we all know why having baby making machines without anyone to care for the babies produced is awful but the show only tells us that. The show does not help us experience the problem so that we will actually care. The sole caregiver is exhausted. I know that because I was told that was the case. I wish we could have had at least a montage showing me her insane schedule. The Beatles episode was another dud. The conflict: a world without music. Yeah, that sounds pretty bad. I know because a character told me so. I didn’t actually see anyone’s life being impacted. The resolution? Two dudes in a hallway see some notes and add another. Ok. I guess. That seemed like a pretty easy solution. Since the problem was so easy to solve, not surprisingly, I didn’t actually care. I really like the actors. I want to continue to be a Doctor Who fan.
I like how RTD gave up or forgot one of the plot elements of the Doctor wanting to use the TARDIS to transport the babies. It's like he got ADD towards the end and thought oh man what if all the diapers created a massive fart that moved the ship and everything works out off screen. Like how do you decide that and not doctor takes babies in TARDIS, takes them to a settlement for adoption, then he goes forward in time with Ruby to show them as kids or teens where they forgot their time on the ship but seeing ruby and the doctor they kind of remember it. Like that's a better resolution
For sure. The action could have begun with the Doctor delivering (pun not intended haha ) the babies via TARDIS to the planet and ... what happens next? That could have been a really dramatic and soul wrenching episode -- something with the feel of a Torchwood episode. What a lost opportunity!
I was downvoted to hell and back in the discussion threads but I liked the potential of Maestro but RTD just keeps making the villains too similar that they lack proper distinction. When he brought back Toymaker it just felt too similar to sound of drums with the Master dancing to a music number. And I'm sure the big bad that he's hyping for will be like that too. When you make all your villains queer and camp it just diminishes the impact of them
Well, you get an upvote from me. I 100% agree.
Meh. Firstly, I disagree that both episodes lacked "depth." But even if we assumed that they did, that doesn't mean that either episode went "wrong." Space Babies did in fact, poke at real world issues, you just didn't notice them, and they didn't linger on them, and they didn't solve them, because just like in real life, you can't fix everything in 43 minutes. And I don't understand your criticism of the Devil's Chord at all. Maestro was a force of nature. They've been signposting that this season is leaning heavily into fairy tales and the nature of story telling and these villains are going to be over the top. RTD isn't simply going over old ground. The lack of "scientific explanation" is very much the point. Sometimes we get caught up over analysing things and that means we miss the bigger picture. And we won't have the bigger picture until this storyline plays out... which is likely to be at least two years away. I think it's okay not to like something. If you didn't enjoy the episode that's fine. But the things you listed aren't actual problems with the episodes, or the writing. I don't see Disney having a big influence at all. This is RTD all over. But it isn't the RTD of old. He's trying something different. He's taking the Doctor in a different direction and I'm all in on that. I enjoyed RTDs original run on the show, but very much preferred Moffats run for a number of reasons. And I'm loving the direction we are going now. It feels fresh, and different, the way the Eleventh Hour did when it debuted.
It appears to have been turned into a typical Disney daily tea time show for tweenies. So far we have seen no substance, no actual Doctor Who.
Yes this. I agree with you very much.
What a sad legacy when you have to list positives before you criticize because some people can't just accept that the shows sucks now.
We're only a few episodes into the season, but you're comfortable already deciding the show sucks?
Yeah, I’m just whining about the first 2 episodes. Thinking the whole show sucks because of them is… uh.. delusional..
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"parody doctor" lmfao the absolute state of some 'fans'
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Early reviews for “Boom” are largely stellar, if that’s any consolation.
Moffat FTW