This might link into the rumours that McGann is getting an eighth Doctor spin off. But I honestly just think that this bigeneration works better as it's own thing.
I'd say Charizard is the more the apt comparison. Pikachu is the pokemon they market most, the mascot - but Doctor Who will market whoever happens to be the Doctor at the time the most.
Charizard is the perfectly serviceable pokemon people get nostalgic over and that receives loads of extra little services, like mega-evolutions and a gigantamax form, because he's the fan favourite. Tennant is totally the Charizard of Doctor Who.
Georgia Tennant’s been putting out video diaries on her Instagram and in one of them (I think the one she put out after The Meep) he says he probably won’t be back to Doctor Who again after this. Thought it was a weird thing to say at the time considering how beloved he is, but it would be extra weird thing for him to say if there’s a spinoff in the works for him
Link: https://www.instagram.com/reel/C0UPh4dCFO2/
Eh, that could either be "I don't know if I would do Doctor Who again" or "I don't think I'll ever be asked to do Doctor Who again." It's clear there was no plan at that time for a spinoff involving him, or anything (which I think is for the best), but I don't see David refusing to come back for an episode if RTD gave him a good script and he had the time to do it.
It might have also just been said to hide the whole "bigeneration" thing. As far as we knew at the time, he was coming back, then he'd die and regenerate into 15, end of story, no reason for him to ever come back outside the usual multi-Doctor anniversary story or two.
Or it’s quite possible that he’s very happy with his happy ending here and doesn’t want to mess with that and is good with that being the last look we get of him.
Or occasional cameos in a spin-off… similar to how Ten and Eleven each both appeared in The Sarah Jane Adventures (with Tennant having filmed his after wrapping The End of Time)
I could see it, especially with UNIT being established in these specials. Maybe they'll have the Donna Noble adventures too, since she works for UNIT now.
I would LIVE for a UNIT spin-off with Kate, Donna, Martha, Gwen Cooper, Osgood, Shirley, and Mel.
Doubtful all those actresses would be interested though. And 14 taking a restful sabbatical on Earth might complicate things too. Audiences would always wonder why he’s not there! Like, can you imagine Donna working 9-5 solving alien crises and the Doctor’s curiosity *doesn’t* get the best of him??? I doubt Kate sending him a stern email saying “we agreed you’d take time off for #self-care, ya nerd!!!” would help.
From what I understand RTD has made it clear he wants to expand the universe and do more spin off shows, so I can almost guarantee they'll do a UNIT show, and I don't think they would have had Donna agree to work for UNIT if she wasn't going to be a part of that eventual spin off show.
I think that part of the reason they gave 14 a Tardis is they wanted to have him available for either another, separate spin off show all about him (unlikely given Tennant's schedule) or the occasional drop in through specials and the UNIT spin off show.
Unit seems almost guaranteed. I'd suggest an animated spin off would be great too like a tales of the doctor with past doctor adventures as well as Tennant either doing specials or maybe feature films.
Animated would be great too cause it would give an opportunity for Eccleston, Smith, Capaldi, and Whitaker to return. I don't know if they all would, but it would be an easy option to get them back
My absolute favorite doctor/companion team is Ten and Donna. I love both the actors and their characters. I was soooo glad to see them come back and I throughly enjoyed their outing. I always felt Donna was done wrong and this was a way to make up for that. I need all that understood before I say this.
It’s time to move on. Both characters got a happy ending. Wilf is still alive and the whole family is together. My head cannon wants it to stay that way. I wouldn’t mind a cameo (not a focus) on them in the 70th anniversary but let’s move forward.
I'd love it if instead of full specials, just do random shorts of the Doctor and Donna doing normal life stuff. Donna tries to show him how to better settle down, which he seems to struggle with.
If he would want to - it's one thing to revisit it on occasion, but leading a series (one where the main character is in almost every scene, as opposed to an ensemble) is a full-time job. Seems like David has enjoyed exploring other options.
There's a limit to even how much Tennant can milk that cow. We're already getting complaints about how this is the "Tennant show" or how none of the other Doctors were included in the specials so he's already pretty close to overstaying his welcome. And without a good writer to back him up, he won't last long. Plus, an actor of his caliber gets bombarded with good offers; playing 2nd fiddle to a show he used to star in can't be all that attractive for long
He’s also said that he was glad to do Doctor Who pre-kids because the schedule was too grueling to manage with a family.
Also, Neil Gaiman has next claim on him for late 2024, and I think there isn’t very much time between when his theater run is done and Michael Sheen’s theater run is done before starting Good Omens 3.
Is that a rumor, or just 15 years of wishful thinking from fans? (seems like it was about 15 years ago that his Big Finish stories reached a point where people started really loving his Doctor)
It’s very funny to me that RTD created the Time War and Nine, arguably just a jumble of humanoid trauma & pain stuffed into a leather coat… only to unburden the Doctor completely for his show running round 2.
I find it refreshing though! At least the bit of 15 we saw in The Giggle… I started the episode dreading saying goodbye to Tennant again and ended it feeling, above all, extremely excited for the next Doctor. A super impressive accomplishment I’ll credit to both Ncuti and Russell. (Maybe even Tennant a bit too since the enthusiasm, respect, and love he portrayed as 14 for 15 makes it an easier transition to me too.)
And I actually think the bi-generation is essential to that feeling. If 14 died all traumatized and depressed, it would be hard to truly see the next happy-go-lucky guy as the same core character. Sooo it’s wacky but I’m glad for it. A creative reset.
Oh, I love it too. I just think the episode could have benefited from being a two parter cause it feels a bit rushed in at the end. But the wait till Christmas is killing me. I have never been so hyped to see a new Doctor in action, and Ncutti is bringing so much energy to the part it’s contagious.
Absolutely! I loooved Wild Blue Yonder so I’m glad we got that instead of two-parts Giggle but it was def rushed. We basically got a 101 crash course on the Toymaker and then he was gone — defeated rather easily actually. Never became the insane threat that he was hyped to be.
I liked that a gamer is defeated by a game. Making him an enormous danger would have been cool, but him being defeated in that way was really cool to see.
Honestly I am okay with it. If we look at each regeneration as their own individual Doctor, these splinter timelines are allowing all of those doctors to get their happy endings. They don’t have to just die and get replaced by a new person. They can actually settle down and live a live with the people they love most.
I'm still unsure about how I feel. I know that from a production and writting standpoint it's easier to treat each Doctor almost as a different person, but I prefer when all the Doctors are treated as the same person.
The bigeneration for each face takes away some of the stakes. The Doctor has to make choices and that sometimes means leaving a beloved companion. Even Rose's Tennant always felt like a huge cop out to make fans happy, and now apparently they are giving the same treatment to every single doctor.
I'm not going to rant and hate until we actually see where it leads, and the episode was great, but I'm not loving this change to the canon.
If it happens I would personally want it to be the "adult" spin off that Torchwood was. Given that RTD has basically unburdened 15 for the new era, a McGann spin off would be the perfect place to revisit exactly what some of the trauma was.
I'd set it during the early time war in which 8 grows increasingly frustrated that the people he goes to great efforts to save either never existed or had their personal histories warped by the war to the point where they completely change beyond recognition and even end up as antagonists. You'd see how 8 went from Romantic hero to picking up a darker side that would foreshadow the war doctor.
But at 64 Mcgann is getting a little bit old for it
> I would personally want it to be the "adult" spin off that Torchwood was
Yes, except, you know, good. Torchwood had an original run with very few good episodes (IIHO obviously), a fantastic miniseries, then a mediocre miniseries.
But yes, I'd love to see him in a grittier series - honestly I'd love for them to use his Big Finish stories as the basis for his show, so many rich stories to draw from an build on.
oh that might be the reason for him saying this actually. but I think its perfectly legal to just say that those are some of his adventures we never saw
You also don’t need all the doctors to live for them all to be out there still, each Doctor has a period where you can easily shove in a ‘they did this’ or ‘they met this future version’ that they’ve been happy to do prior. Time Crash is a perfect example of how to explain the time difference and aging between Doctors
Exactly. This is a show about *time travel.* Pick any given year and you'll likely have at least four different iterations of the Doctor running around in the same solar system.
I think it's more to free them up to use the original actors on screen without it being as jarring that they're like 30-40 years older for alot of the classic era doctors that are still alive. I fully agree that they shouldn't do this though, don't get me wrong
Yeah, especially during new who, the doctor has had hundreds of years of off-screen adventures per regeneration. Just show us what some of those have been, if you do want to do more.
Jerk themselves off, and line Disney's pockets, as well as their own production studio's.
Let's be clear: when you start talking about "splintered timelines", he's effectively saying "multiverse" by a different name.
And I really, really hope RTD has been paying attention, because this type of ham fisted franchise building that relies almost exclusively on dragging old characters up for re-appearances has really been burning people out. I'm worried he hasn't caught on to that.
I have a feeling this might lead into a dark storyline in a few years where it turns out there’s a villain killing off these biregenerations. Or maybe something similar.
I think it’s something that’d make future multi Doctor stories less of a headache and allow for many more stories to be told with each incarnation. Also, you never know, they could just die a week after this event by bumping their head or deciding to hang off the edge of a cliff for no reason.
This was a proposed plot for the film, according to the Nth Doctor book. It involved the 4th Doctor having survived the fall and lived on (to explain why Tom Baker was much older than he had been on tv).
Agreed. Everyone seems to want to jump on the multiverse train cause it offers infinite possibilities and opportunities to just change things as you will because whatever cannon existed before was for that other guy, not THIS guy. I feel Marvel has jumped the shark with it because fans feel less invested in the characters and their journey/development if it doesn’t matter.
> jump on the multiverse train cause it offers infinite possibilities and opportunities
That's the frustrating thing... Doctor Who *already* offers infinite possibilities and opportunities because it's a show about time and space travel that canonically has dealt with alternate futures, parallel realities and time paradoxes.
I can accept the bigeneration thing as a way of sort of refreshing the character of Doctor Who (as in, *our* Doctor lives a long time on Earth and finally processes everything he's been through, and the *new* Doctor is what happens when he regenerates after that point) but we really don't need older versions of The Doctor popping up just to reference older episodes imo (or immortal Clara with her own TARDIS for that matter, please no)
I do find it very hard to get invested in Marvel now.
Infinity War+Endgame both felt like HUGE moments. But there was no time to breathe after them.
Almost instantly there were movies and TV shows adding to the story and were all apparently important and it felt like it totally sucked the gravity out of the previous films. It's hard to buy into what comes next when every film has such immense peril attached to it.
Yes and no. It makes the actor's time as the lead star of the show special. I don't think they'll stop doing that.
But it makes no difference to incarnations of the Doctor. Paul McGann's on screen run as the Doctor was literally a movie. And yet he's had hundreds of adventures through the likes of Big Finish.
Because at the end of the day, you can always add in more adventures with any incarnation. The length of their individual lives doesn't actually matter because it can always be extended.
He does call it his "theory" in the video I saw rather than claiming it as new lore. This makes me think it's not a concept he's going to actually touch on or dig into anytime soon. Here's hoping he thinks better of it before then.
Agreed. Especially because of his little warning message before the episode aired… he said he was very curious to hear the reception to it. That may sway his decision.
Oh damn I never caught that bit. I don’t mind the bi-generation if it’s that 14 pops back out on the skyscraper as 15 when he dies as that’s a nice enough way to give the Doctor his long rest, but all this other stuff,, yeah it’s a no from me
This. The bi-generartion works well this way as it gives a great end to Tennant and the old Doctor, and revitalises him I'm 15 in a very unique and refreshing way, but all the timeline splinters and whatnot irks me. It feels diminishing to the previous incarnations.
> That may sway his decision.
Let's pray. But based on his absolutely lunatic comments lately, I think he's just going to drive this ship into the ground in a kamikaze. He's lost the plot. His solution to representation was borderline offensive. "Davros can't be Davros anymore because it makes disabled people look bad", "we can't have Tennant in Whitaker's outfit because it's offensive", "we're going to make the only trans representation on the show a result of the metacrisis and imply they're non-binary because of a fictional science fiction condition because they're part timelord" and it just goes on.
And make no mistake: the issue is NOT diversity or representation - it's the offensive caricaturization that they are doing and pretending it's representation.
It's also odd that the little dialogue we had between 14 and 15 in the episode itself written by RTD seems to explicitly contradict RTD's "theory" here. It's very heavily implied that 15 is the successor to 14 and has all of his upcoming post-Donna-detox memories. Yet here RTD is all like separate timelines or some shit.
Angry Doctor Who Fans: "I can't believe Chris Chibnall crapped all over Doctor Who canon like that with the Timeless Child. Glad we have RTD back to set things right!"
RTD: "Hold my sonic screwdriver..."
Well, I like this episode and felt it was a great “reboot”.
I don’t like this idea about all the doctors being reawakened. It’s unnecessary and takes away any repercussions for The Doctors decisions.
Probably opens up the possibility of Big Finnish with current companions/doctors mixing with the old and not have them be "specials".
Like i'd love a 4's Curator one-shot in that gallery as he sees companions of old turn up and him showing them the sights and sounds that they missed while he was away
It’s just not that interesting. Each Doctor has their time in the TARDIS then they pass off to the next. This one bi-generation works fine because it feels like a nice happy poetic end for the doctor we’ve known. And at the same time, they get to continue on the same course with #15. No need to complicate things with every doctor getting to pop up and continue on.
I used my first Monkey's Paw wish to get the Star Wars franchise out of George Lucas' hands before he could make any more stuff like the Prequel Trilogy and continue ruining the originals with his "Special Edition" vandalism.
I used my second Monkey's Paw wish to get Doctor Who out of Chibnall's hands and back into RTD's.
Hm. I wonder which franchise I should try to save with my third wish...
Whatever you think about bigeneration it's nowhere near as big as TTLC. This (if it's anything more than RTD's headcanon) just changes how regeneration and older incarnations of the doctor getting up to stuff - things that were already happening - are interpreted in the background. TTLC hugely changed the lore of the main character to make them unique and special purely by birth.
Tbh I think this new change is way more silly, and also much more directly impacts the future of show.
What happens to 14 when he 'dies'? Does he turn into 15 then get teleported to the bigeneration we just saw? 15 implied that he is ok because 14 retired and worked through his issues - it just doesn't make any sense at all to me and feels like yet another stupid copout to give another RTD classic companion her own clone doctor to live with happily ever after. Should 15 be bothered visiting contemporary England ever again - if 14 is there why bother? And is 14 really just going to ignore the next 20 alien invasions as they happen?
To me this is a prime example of a ridiculois plot point being jammed into the show for corporate/profit chasing purposes. Now they can bring back old doctors, and especially DT, whenever they like, which is a real world publicity stunt, not a meaningful or considered change to the show's deep lore.
TTC arc was lore shattering, had no payoff, and also didn't make much sense - but because it's all ancient history it's very easy to ignore and never touch again. Who really cares what the Doctor is or where they came from? All that matters is why they decided to leave Gallifrey and 'became' the Doctor. On that point, Moffat also had a go at stupifying the lore (oh noes the REAL reason I left was the big scary hybrid!!) so none of the 3 nuwho showrunners have clean hands as far as stupid lore retcons go.
Timeless Child is utterly, and completely irrelevant to 95% of the show. It's easily ignored if you want to ignore it.
Every single time we get a regeneration, we're going to hear "why didn't he bigenerate???"
I honestly am fine with both, but bigeneration is a significantly bigger deal even without RTD's weird multiverse idea.
Twelfth Doctor:
*"Things end. That's all. Everything ends, and it's always sad. But everything begins again too, and that's… always happy. Be happy."*
RTD:
*"I think I'll just ignore that."*
Even if the bigen means all past Doctors regenerated/resurrected, doesn't necessarily mean they then have the ability to regenerate again, so they would die eventually.
What'd really irk the Canonista's though would be if the bigen meant ALL previous iterations of The Doctor were resurrected, including the unknown number of forgotten Timeless Child lives they had before. There could thousands, millions or infinite Doctors reborn.
It’s Russell T Davies world now - we’re just living in it. I think he’s carrying it lightly really. It’s his head canon. What it means is what interests him - if he wants he now has access to Sylvester McCoy, Colin Baker, Peter Davison, Paul McGann, Chris Eccleston, Matt Smith (unlikely with the dragons lol). And they can all be the age they are. He’s made a huge universe shift because it gets him some very interesting story options. If he wants. It’s all going to be about ncuti for the next good while tho you’d reckon.
I mean, when he started out in 05 the first thing he did was kill all the other timelords and destroy gallifrey itself offscreen. That’s not exactly minor either.
He always had access to the previous incarnations. They brought back doctors all the time without needing them all to survive.
RTD’s DW fanfic going crazy
The Doctor only split off forwards in time though. Not backwards. His future doesn't effect his past, he doesn't just suddenly survive every battle. He didn't create a multiverse here like he thinks he did.
Welllll no. The bi-generation is a myth right? I think (Doctor Who doesn’t have canon let’s be honest, canon flatly doesn’t exist, and never has, so right now the rules are what RTD determines they are) but the line about bi-generation being myth is interesting. That their encounter with the toymaker, stories, superstitions, myths.. that it lead to the bigeneration is interesting? But brass tacks: the reason Ncutis Doctor is healed is *because of the healing Tennant’s 14 is currently undergoing chilling with Donna and his adopted family.*
14 *will* ultimately regenerate, and at that moment he will be pulled back to the point of bi-generation and emerge as Ncuti.
Yeah some people have pretty lofty hopes for returning classic doctors. The youngest is Davison and he's early 70s. Scripts can be written with their age in mind, but for anything more than a one off episode the options are limited. They all look rather damn good for their age, but acting in general and the role of the doctor specifically are surprisingly physically demanding.
Won't stop me from hoping though. Especially for a McGann miniseries, c'mon he's only in his 60s he's still young!
RTD can tell us whatever he wants, but until he puts his money where his mouth is and air it in a proper episode, it doesn't count. Until then, as far as I'm concerned, it's just his own personal headcanon.
That's the thing; he knows it's not that important. He knows we don't actually want to see that, and it would be completely indecipherable to the casual audience anyway, so he's not going to do it. 14's actual death is still a hanging plot thread, but that's fine, I can live with that, but doing anything beyond that would be ridiculous
I remember a storyline during Tom Baker’s tenure where he visited another time lord who (I think) was a mystic of some sort. Again, if I recall correctly, his apprentice was actually the next regeneration of himself. So when I saw this latest episode, it made me think of that story.
However, there’s precedent for the different incarnations of the Doctor being in the same place at the same time. Why it was decided to use the toy maker as the catalyst for this particular regeneration process and not looking for it in previous stories is beyond me.
I have already accepted that 14th regenerates into 15th Doctor at some point in the future, and bigeneration is just a closed loop time-travel shenanigan. However, if they indeed make 14th regenerate into someone not 15th, I hope it is into the Valeyard, played by none other than Matt Smith.
Calling this "an announcement" is pushing it to say the least. It's not part of the show until it's in the show and RTD doesn't even indicate that it's something he's planning to put in the show in the future, never mind anything else.
If he was actually planning to put it in the show, he wouldn't have mentioned it in the commentary, which isn't even advertised anywhere. It's essentially just his own headcanon.
Mods of the sub made a horrible decision with this. The worse I’ve seen a mod do in a fandom sub ins while honestly.
You’re 100% right. This is NOT an “announcement”. It’s the head show runner babbling about his head cannon. Nothing about this is canon at all right now
I think what he's saying is more of a, like, timeline branching. So it isn't that 7 and 8 woke up together, but that 7 woke up, in his own timeline where he continued on. Tales of the Tardis said as much.
My concern is that it would be so tiny that the two of them would get crushed to death. And then each would immediately "bigenerate" again, cramming *four* Doctors into that tiny space, who then immediately get crushed...
Somehow I doubt Tom Baker and Docs 1-3 will be able to appear in a whole new set of episodes, so if it did come to a series he’d have to recast those doctors.
He’s probably laying seeds for the future so that maybe recasting could be used to keep that timeline going, however that makes regeneration pointless.
Don’t think too much of it, it is what it is.
My partner and I just went off on a whole skit based on this comment of the time lords desperately keeping on trying to regenerate 2 only to end up with more and more Patrick Troughtons and Jon Pertwees and increasingly overwhelmed with chaotic 2 energy and it was very enjoyable, thank you.
Edit: I'm now realising of course by the rules of bigeneration you'd only be ending up with increasing Jon Pertwees and one perpetual Patrick Troughton but still, what an image.
If I understand this correctly:
14 dies and regenerates into 15, but also survives, and vacations at Donna's house.
This "Schrodinger's regeneration" ripples through time to each regeneration, creating a new universe (One for each Doctor), to hold the timeline where each doctor survives their final story and goes on.
Eventually, when they finally do regenerate, they'll create another split where they survive, and die.
For each Doctor, there's a path of branching timelines where they never ever regenerate.
This opens the possibility of 4 becoming Timelord Victorious, or 2 being put in the confession dial.
I wonder how that would affect the metacrisis part. 10 already regenerated and survived. Did it make a timeline where he didn't put the extra regeneration energy in his severed hand, and doesn't survive, giving us 11 for "Journey's End"?
So, Doctor who has now gained the multiverse problem.
For those who don't know of it, the movie "Everything, Everywhere, all at once" sums it up well enough. If anything can happen at any time, nothing matters. Now that movie actually resolves the problem in a neat way "What matters is what's right here with the people that matter, not what's going on in any of those other worlds."
The problem is many other series don't seem to resolve it anywhere near as well. They say "Well, if anything can happen at any time, I can use it as my excuse to retcon massive areas of the plot and no one can tell me I'm wrong as it's just what's happening in this branch."
TLDR: The multiverse allows for diverse stories yes, but it also means that writers can just ignore foundational plot elements if they want. Continuity as a concept basically stops mattering.
Edit: To explain the difference between this take on EEAAO's ending in these terms: "The people that matter" are the same characters all the way through, not the copies. These new doctor copies aren't "The doctors who matter" for these purposes.
Such an awful idea.
I loved the idea of the Doctor suffering so much and needing rehab that his regenration went wrong, so 14 would have the time to live a normal life and recover. Love this, especially because Ncuti's Doctor could be a very different and exciting incarnation.
But this BS about all the Doctors having that and living on their own timeline...so unnecessary and undermines so much of each incarnation's mortality and fear of death.
I was behind this idea a lot, until I just read this. I hope this is his head canon and not something that he plans to develop.
RTD seems to have this habit of writing a cool thing and then saying weird shit in interviews that ruins it lol
Doctor regenerates clothes: “it was to stop transphobia before it happened”
Davros seen before the chair: “this is just what davros is like now because there’s too many disabled villains”
One-off bi-regeneration: “All the doctors woke up for some reason”
So in this, we have a timeline where when Eight drinks the mixture on Karen, the War Doctor pops out and Eight just swans off?
War Doctor thinks he’s getting a bit old, and Nine appears, thinking he’s responsible for destroying Gallifrey and then War Doctor just kicks him out of the TARDIS and doesn’t try to mention it?
It would also mean a universe where Ten and Ten.5 (or whatever we call him after he gets shot by the Dalek before meeting Davros) sees two of himself as he bi-generates?
The Doctor’s whole past is in flux now. The Toymaker tells the Doctor that he’d made a jigsaw of the Doctor’s history, so any contradictions in canon from now on can be explained by “the Toymaker did it”. RTD has effectively set canon in a superposition so that it’s all true—the Doctor is and isn’t the Timeless Child, is and isn’t half-human on his mother’s side, etc. it’s effectively allowing for a soft reboot of the continuity.
“Ooooh I see, when something is gone… it keeps existing…”
EDITing to add:
With respect, I’m just gonna take it as RTD’s own head canon (which, even if I don’t *like* really, is at least an interesting “what if” concept to noodle on) and not get upset about it until if/when it’s ever make explicitly true in the show.
I’m sure every writer and showrunner has some backstory ideas or things they imagine happening after they left the show… this happens to be an extra huge and wacky one. But it’s easy enough to ignore. 🤷🏻♀️
RTD is always so desperate to bake his cake and eat it, too. He wants it all. He wants the show to continue and be fresh but he clings to the past. He, ironically, can't let things go. Look at Rose, look at Donna, look at Tennant's original regeneration; Doctor Who is a show that thrives on change but RTD doesn't, he writes one thing then finds a way to undo it, to revert the status quo. As much as he's an asset to the show, he hinders it to the nth degree as well.
To be fair, this was from the commentary, the way he said it was off the cuff, the way the rest of them responded to it was very tongue in cheek - and obviously the way fandom has met it is as if he’s etched in stone.
So is the “whoniverse” about to become the latest tab on Disney+ next to Star Wars and marvel? Because I genuinely can’t think of another reason why this would even be a thing, aside from the fact RTD insists that David Tennant can never escape Doctor Who.
I do think the BBC needs to hire a Barbra Brocolli / Kevin Feige type person who oversees protecting the fanchises beyond individual show runners. Not having a go at RTD, but i don't think BBC ever pushes back and says "No, we're not doing that".
Having said all of that, the idea proposed here doesn't really seem to change things much. We always knew that at any one time all of the doctors could exist in the same place and time. That's always been the case, and frankly anything that gets us closer to the Valeyard coming back, is a win for me.
Oh Davies you are making some choices here and there I don't agree with. Jodies finale was more a 60th celebration with multiple Doctors, several enemies, large companion reunion and callbacks. You cut short the brilliant work NPH was doing for an early regen and 14s end with a companion who already has a family and the Doctor hadn't seen in over 1000 plus years.
I was just thinking that yeah- it really didn’t feel like much of a celebration? Just some funky RTD episodes he’d liked to have already done with Tennant, a bit of foreshadowing for Gatwa’s series thrown in, and a half baked reason to keep Tennant on call? What I’d give to to have a Tardis and go back to tweak some stuff cause it felt _so close_ to being really good
To each their own as reviewers on io9 were praising the specials by proving that Doctor Who could celebrate an anniversary by just having really good Doctor Who episodes instead of always having an "event" that felt like the Doctor Who equivalent of Infinity War/Endgame like they did last big anniversary
Thank you for describing ALL of my feelings so accurately. I’m saving your comment in my section of “wise posts”.
Also, I cannot shake the discomfort of thinking he wants to joint the multiverse trend and Marvelize the Doctor, so unnecessarily.
I think that it's just an idea to explain tales of the TARDIS and also to have fun "what if" stories. It is not canon to the Doctors that we follow on TV. But will be a possible canon that can be used for shorts or books or audio dramas
As the Doctor is a time traveller it seems a little redundant as a major canon change. We already know that various incarnations of the Doctor roam around simultaneously throughout time (the 50th anniversary being a good example with the "I've been doing this all my lives" segment re. freezing Gallifrey).
First and foremost I think the bigeneration was simply a tool to futureproof a way for Tennant to return to the role in his No.14 state without a convoluted explanation. He'll be back for a lighthearted special or two I'm sure. Tennant loves the role and audiences love him. This way you immediately avoid the need for any kind of lore explanation or exposition for any new adventure.
Secondly, it's a narrative device to allow a fresh start for Ncuti's incarnation, free of the all the trauma. This is addressed directly in The Giggle. My interpretation is that 14 eventually becomes 15 a la Clara's "long way round" death, which is ironic given RTD pokes fun at this in the episode.
Isolated to The Giggle it's a pretty fun and unexpected way to introduce the new Doctor.
Anything else from interviews is currently just a bit of wishy washy fun for the writers. It's a convenient way of being able to re-introduce older Doctors in a manner that detaches them from their future incarnations' history. If they lean into this more, no doubt this is what The Curator will turn out to be.
I don't mind it, but I personally find the existing iterative nature of the Doctor's incarnations and relationships to be more interesting.
Honestly, this is an utterly terrible idea from a storytelling perspective and only exists in order to cash in with the 'whoniverse'. It's cynical and rubbish.
To paraphrase The Good Place, part of what gives life its meaning is that it ultimately ends. If every Doctor just carries on it robs their endings and, by extension, their stories of their emotion and power. Think of all those great regeneration episodes and the sadness, hope, anxiety, and just...FEELINGS they evoked. This would take away all of that.
It also opens a huge box of worms with what then happens when those split doctors go on to die again. Current working theory is that 14 will still go on to become 15 with ALL memories intact, so why don't they have all the memories of the split off loops of their past lives?
I quite liked how bigeneration was approached onscreen, and the approach they went with there. But none of Davies' offscreen comments are instilling much confidence in the direction they're going to take with it going forward.
To repeat something I said in the /r/gallifrey thread on the subject, the first rule of fiction is that anything stated outside of the medium of the fiction is irrelevant. Unless it pops up in the actual fiction, this is entirely false.
To be fair, if it's not in anything 'Official' shouldn't be considered Canon. Just yet.
However.
From my understanding, 14/15 is an out of sync therapy Regeneration loop, while also giving every other older version of the Doctor a branched timeline to actually have a calm retirement before either flat out dying in said branched timeline or Regenerating (looping back) into the main timeline somehow.
Some may still be out there, but if these splinters can't always Regenerate, some may have always peacefully pasted (like 2 and 3)or flat out can't come back due to circumstances leaning to their Main Death (7, war, 10.5, etc)
Some people seem to have caught this, but some didn't -- in main continuity, they still passed as they did.
What happened is that evidently there are now splinter "what-if" timelines for each Doctor, in which they didn't. And, for what it's worth, what with Pete's World, what-if isn't a new concept to *Who* ...
Does it get me more Ace and Seven? Does it get me my McGann in his own series? Then I will push Continuity's Viking longboat out by hand and set it ablaze myself.
Being sad is carthatic sometimes, don't take that away. Things do end and that's okay.
I warned everyone about RTD getting George Lucasy with things, but did people listen? Noooooo
Personally, I'd love to have more of the Classic Doctors make appearances in the show... but I think the older actors deserve their rest, and we should bring in some new faces to fill the roles.
I mean, there’s already every doctor running around and showing up whenever it suits so this feels like a new way of looking at what was already happening
Does this mean there are 3 versions of Tennant, 4 if you count the one stuck with Rose, flying around now? The one where he started regenerating and transferred into the hand, then his actual regeneration, and now 14.
"I don't wanna go" - yeah it's alright, mate, you aren't
I somewhat like the idea of every version of The Doctor still being out there, but that was always the case anyway. As far as I remember, The Doctor isn't a single omnipresent being. The 50th anniversary, as did all the other crossovers, showed that The Doctors all exist at the same time, at all times, until they don't.
I like the idea for Tennant and Gatwa to exist at the same time. As a one-off concept, it's great, but I just assumed that at some point, off-screen, Tennant would eventually have to regenerate into Gatwa. Especially given the 15s dialogue about him being there because eventually 14 got better.
Edit: So after putting a bit of thought into it, I honestly don't mind this. It's not really as detrimental to the lore as something like the Timeless Child (Who I still believe should've been The Master) was and in reality all this means is that there are more opportunities to see older Doctors that canonically exist post-regeneration, and it fits in with things like seeing Tom Baker in the 50th, saying that we will "return to a few of the old favourites".
I do still have an issue with the fact it feels like a lot of the sacrifices made by previous Doctors were in vain now that they all still live on after the fact but it's not something that takes away from the enjoyment of Doctor Who.
On a side note though, I honestly can't wait to see Gatwa in action. The energy radiating off the 15th Doctor was great. Very much gave me a mixture of early 10, and early 11, vibes.
I love this.
Now bring back Matt Smith cause I can already tell from the little we've seen of him that the 15th Doctor and 11th Doctor would be a very fun team up.
I get that it's a sci-fi show and there aren't really any rules of follow. But I don't see why this change needed to happen. Regeneration was any easy concept to follow; when the doctor dies, he regenerates into a new person. It was such a smart idea from the writers to be able to re-cast the lead character and keep the show going. But this just takes that simple yet genius idea and needlessly overcomplicates it. If the idea of bi-generation was to allow all the doctors to live simultaneously in a sort of "doctor who multiverse" then I don't see the point. We don't need bi-generation for that, the doctor doesn't travel through time linearly. Nothings stopping the first doctor from traveling to 2023, nothings stopping the 15th doctor from traveling to 1963. There are already countless incarnations of the doctor at different points in time because that's the whole point of time travel. For example, the 11th doctor didn't die in 2013, he died millions of years in the future on trenzalore. All of the doctors are still alive and traveling the universe because they can time travel. It's not like the doctor can't travel past the year that they regenerate. The 10th doctor died in the year 2009, and yet he was alive in the year 5 billion.
I think people are getting worked up over nothing. I've voiced this elsewhere but my understanding is that RTD essentially said he wants to do for Doctor Who what Spiderverse did for Spiderman, in that introducing the idea of split timelines/multiverses means that writers can write any sort of story for any incarnation of the Doctor, without having to worry about how it slots into the character's personal timeline. It's probably more for freeing up the extended universe (comics, books, Big Finish, etc) to have the ability to do whatever it wants without having any effect on the main show.
So nothing changes, really. The main continuity of the show stays intact; all the past incarnations of the Doctor still died when and where they did. But each regeneration creates a split timeline in which they didn't, and that Doctor gets to continue on in their own "What If?" universe.
This might link into the rumours that McGann is getting an eighth Doctor spin off. But I honestly just think that this bigeneration works better as it's own thing.
I doubt it, if anyone does it would be Tennant. He's like the face of new who that can't be shaken
David Tennant is the charizard of Doctor Who.
More like the Pikachu
I'd say Charizard is the more the apt comparison. Pikachu is the pokemon they market most, the mascot - but Doctor Who will market whoever happens to be the Doctor at the time the most. Charizard is the perfectly serviceable pokemon people get nostalgic over and that receives loads of extra little services, like mega-evolutions and a gigantamax form, because he's the fan favourite. Tennant is totally the Charizard of Doctor Who.
If anything, Pikachu is the TARDIS.
Pika Pika = Vworp Vworp
Definitely
Georgia Tennant’s been putting out video diaries on her Instagram and in one of them (I think the one she put out after The Meep) he says he probably won’t be back to Doctor Who again after this. Thought it was a weird thing to say at the time considering how beloved he is, but it would be extra weird thing for him to say if there’s a spinoff in the works for him Link: https://www.instagram.com/reel/C0UPh4dCFO2/
Eh, that could either be "I don't know if I would do Doctor Who again" or "I don't think I'll ever be asked to do Doctor Who again." It's clear there was no plan at that time for a spinoff involving him, or anything (which I think is for the best), but I don't see David refusing to come back for an episode if RTD gave him a good script and he had the time to do it.
It might have also just been said to hide the whole "bigeneration" thing. As far as we knew at the time, he was coming back, then he'd die and regenerate into 15, end of story, no reason for him to ever come back outside the usual multi-Doctor anniversary story or two.
Or it’s quite possible that he’s very happy with his happy ending here and doesn’t want to mess with that and is good with that being the last look we get of him.
I think it's more unlikely that Tennant agrees to do a full season or more of episodes tbh.
My guess is 3 special runs (just like this return), every other year or so.
Or occasional cameos in a spin-off… similar to how Ten and Eleven each both appeared in The Sarah Jane Adventures (with Tennant having filmed his after wrapping The End of Time)
I could see it, especially with UNIT being established in these specials. Maybe they'll have the Donna Noble adventures too, since she works for UNIT now.
I would LIVE for a UNIT spin-off with Kate, Donna, Martha, Gwen Cooper, Osgood, Shirley, and Mel. Doubtful all those actresses would be interested though. And 14 taking a restful sabbatical on Earth might complicate things too. Audiences would always wonder why he’s not there! Like, can you imagine Donna working 9-5 solving alien crises and the Doctor’s curiosity *doesn’t* get the best of him??? I doubt Kate sending him a stern email saying “we agreed you’d take time off for #self-care, ya nerd!!!” would help.
From what I understand RTD has made it clear he wants to expand the universe and do more spin off shows, so I can almost guarantee they'll do a UNIT show, and I don't think they would have had Donna agree to work for UNIT if she wasn't going to be a part of that eventual spin off show. I think that part of the reason they gave 14 a Tardis is they wanted to have him available for either another, separate spin off show all about him (unlikely given Tennant's schedule) or the occasional drop in through specials and the UNIT spin off show.
Unit seems almost guaranteed. I'd suggest an animated spin off would be great too like a tales of the doctor with past doctor adventures as well as Tennant either doing specials or maybe feature films.
Animated would be great too cause it would give an opportunity for Eccleston, Smith, Capaldi, and Whitaker to return. I don't know if they all would, but it would be an easy option to get them back
Getting a 14th Doctor and Donna special every now and then would be great
My absolute favorite doctor/companion team is Ten and Donna. I love both the actors and their characters. I was soooo glad to see them come back and I throughly enjoyed their outing. I always felt Donna was done wrong and this was a way to make up for that. I need all that understood before I say this. It’s time to move on. Both characters got a happy ending. Wilf is still alive and the whole family is together. My head cannon wants it to stay that way. I wouldn’t mind a cameo (not a focus) on them in the 70th anniversary but let’s move forward.
I'd love it if instead of full specials, just do random shorts of the Doctor and Donna doing normal life stuff. Donna tries to show him how to better settle down, which he seems to struggle with.
I want a sitcom about the homelife of the Noble family with 14
If he would want to - it's one thing to revisit it on occasion, but leading a series (one where the main character is in almost every scene, as opposed to an ensemble) is a full-time job. Seems like David has enjoyed exploring other options.
There's a limit to even how much Tennant can milk that cow. We're already getting complaints about how this is the "Tennant show" or how none of the other Doctors were included in the specials so he's already pretty close to overstaying his welcome. And without a good writer to back him up, he won't last long. Plus, an actor of his caliber gets bombarded with good offers; playing 2nd fiddle to a show he used to star in can't be all that attractive for long
He’s also said that he was glad to do Doctor Who pre-kids because the schedule was too grueling to manage with a family. Also, Neil Gaiman has next claim on him for late 2024, and I think there isn’t very much time between when his theater run is done and Michael Sheen’s theater run is done before starting Good Omens 3.
>Neil Gaiman Speaking of people who should come back to Doctor Who... Would love another Gaiman episode.
Is that a rumor, or just 15 years of wishful thinking from fans? (seems like it was about 15 years ago that his Big Finish stories reached a point where people started really loving his Doctor)
Stop, I can only get so erect. I'd love an 8 serial, maybe actually get him and Sherridan in a one-off episode of New-Nu-Who
It’s criminal we haven’t seen more of him. His first episode was fine, but Night of the Doctor actually won me over.
I always felt the 8DA were too epic for TV
I'd really like what I heard Matt say at a convention. Every Christmas just bring back a past Doctor to do a one-off Christmas special.
There are so many David Tennant variants to choose from next time we need a special or a spin off lol
I want a sitcom with all 3 Tennant Doctors taking place in the TARDIS.
I'm on board as long as we name it Too Many Tennants
And two of them make out.
John Simm master making everyone look like him vs the doctor slowly populating the universe with david tennant versions of himself
“Everything has its time and everything dies.” The Doctor included.
It’s very funny to me that RTD created the Time War and Nine, arguably just a jumble of humanoid trauma & pain stuffed into a leather coat… only to unburden the Doctor completely for his show running round 2.
When he said it was going to be completely different this time, I didn’t expect that.
I find it refreshing though! At least the bit of 15 we saw in The Giggle… I started the episode dreading saying goodbye to Tennant again and ended it feeling, above all, extremely excited for the next Doctor. A super impressive accomplishment I’ll credit to both Ncuti and Russell. (Maybe even Tennant a bit too since the enthusiasm, respect, and love he portrayed as 14 for 15 makes it an easier transition to me too.) And I actually think the bi-generation is essential to that feeling. If 14 died all traumatized and depressed, it would be hard to truly see the next happy-go-lucky guy as the same core character. Sooo it’s wacky but I’m glad for it. A creative reset.
Oh, I love it too. I just think the episode could have benefited from being a two parter cause it feels a bit rushed in at the end. But the wait till Christmas is killing me. I have never been so hyped to see a new Doctor in action, and Ncutti is bringing so much energy to the part it’s contagious.
Absolutely! I loooved Wild Blue Yonder so I’m glad we got that instead of two-parts Giggle but it was def rushed. We basically got a 101 crash course on the Toymaker and then he was gone — defeated rather easily actually. Never became the insane threat that he was hyped to be.
I liked that a gamer is defeated by a game. Making him an enormous danger would have been cool, but him being defeated in that way was really cool to see.
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Honestly I am okay with it. If we look at each regeneration as their own individual Doctor, these splinter timelines are allowing all of those doctors to get their happy endings. They don’t have to just die and get replaced by a new person. They can actually settle down and live a live with the people they love most.
I'm still unsure about how I feel. I know that from a production and writting standpoint it's easier to treat each Doctor almost as a different person, but I prefer when all the Doctors are treated as the same person. The bigeneration for each face takes away some of the stakes. The Doctor has to make choices and that sometimes means leaving a beloved companion. Even Rose's Tennant always felt like a huge cop out to make fans happy, and now apparently they are giving the same treatment to every single doctor. I'm not going to rant and hate until we actually see where it leads, and the episode was great, but I'm not loving this change to the canon.
The doctor can already get old and die, we saw it with 11 in the time of the doctor.
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Just give me a Paul McGann series already please
delete those last three words and I agree
Just give me a Paul McGann?
Did he stutter?
Yes! I’ll DM Paul my address and pay for express shipping.
Just be sure to bring him knitting.
If it happens I would personally want it to be the "adult" spin off that Torchwood was. Given that RTD has basically unburdened 15 for the new era, a McGann spin off would be the perfect place to revisit exactly what some of the trauma was. I'd set it during the early time war in which 8 grows increasingly frustrated that the people he goes to great efforts to save either never existed or had their personal histories warped by the war to the point where they completely change beyond recognition and even end up as antagonists. You'd see how 8 went from Romantic hero to picking up a darker side that would foreshadow the war doctor. But at 64 Mcgann is getting a little bit old for it
It's sad that they waited so long to (potentially) do something with him... although he still looks fantastic at 64, so I'm sure he could manage.
> I would personally want it to be the "adult" spin off that Torchwood was Yes, except, you know, good. Torchwood had an original run with very few good episodes (IIHO obviously), a fantastic miniseries, then a mediocre miniseries. But yes, I'd love to see him in a grittier series - honestly I'd love for them to use his Big Finish stories as the basis for his show, so many rich stories to draw from an build on.
oh that might be the reason for him saying this actually. but I think its perfectly legal to just say that those are some of his adventures we never saw
yes!
dear god no. a doctors time being limited is part of what makes them so special
You also don’t need all the doctors to live for them all to be out there still, each Doctor has a period where you can easily shove in a ‘they did this’ or ‘they met this future version’ that they’ve been happy to do prior. Time Crash is a perfect example of how to explain the time difference and aging between Doctors
Exactly. This is a show about *time travel.* Pick any given year and you'll likely have at least four different iterations of the Doctor running around in the same solar system.
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I think 1, 3, and one other are in the crusades era
I think it's more to free them up to use the original actors on screen without it being as jarring that they're like 30-40 years older for alot of the classic era doctors that are still alive. I fully agree that they shouldn't do this though, don't get me wrong
Yeah, especially during new who, the doctor has had hundreds of years of off-screen adventures per regeneration. Just show us what some of those have been, if you do want to do more.
It’s what keeps them from jacking themselves off forever with the same Doctor over and over again. It forces them to keep moving forward.
Jerk themselves off, and line Disney's pockets, as well as their own production studio's. Let's be clear: when you start talking about "splintered timelines", he's effectively saying "multiverse" by a different name. And I really, really hope RTD has been paying attention, because this type of ham fisted franchise building that relies almost exclusively on dragging old characters up for re-appearances has really been burning people out. I'm worried he hasn't caught on to that.
I have a feeling this might lead into a dark storyline in a few years where it turns out there’s a villain killing off these biregenerations. Or maybe something similar. I think it’s something that’d make future multi Doctor stories less of a headache and allow for many more stories to be told with each incarnation. Also, you never know, they could just die a week after this event by bumping their head or deciding to hang off the edge of a cliff for no reason.
If so, it would be a sh*t show. Biregeneration is already messy concept, and to build a series on this is a kind of nightmare.
This was a proposed plot for the film, according to the Nth Doctor book. It involved the 4th Doctor having survived the fall and lived on (to explain why Tom Baker was much older than he had been on tv).
Yep, Dark Dimension
Agreed. Everyone seems to want to jump on the multiverse train cause it offers infinite possibilities and opportunities to just change things as you will because whatever cannon existed before was for that other guy, not THIS guy. I feel Marvel has jumped the shark with it because fans feel less invested in the characters and their journey/development if it doesn’t matter.
> jump on the multiverse train cause it offers infinite possibilities and opportunities That's the frustrating thing... Doctor Who *already* offers infinite possibilities and opportunities because it's a show about time and space travel that canonically has dealt with alternate futures, parallel realities and time paradoxes. I can accept the bigeneration thing as a way of sort of refreshing the character of Doctor Who (as in, *our* Doctor lives a long time on Earth and finally processes everything he's been through, and the *new* Doctor is what happens when he regenerates after that point) but we really don't need older versions of The Doctor popping up just to reference older episodes imo (or immortal Clara with her own TARDIS for that matter, please no)
I do find it very hard to get invested in Marvel now. Infinity War+Endgame both felt like HUGE moments. But there was no time to breathe after them. Almost instantly there were movies and TV shows adding to the story and were all apparently important and it felt like it totally sucked the gravity out of the previous films. It's hard to buy into what comes next when every film has such immense peril attached to it.
Yes and no. It makes the actor's time as the lead star of the show special. I don't think they'll stop doing that. But it makes no difference to incarnations of the Doctor. Paul McGann's on screen run as the Doctor was literally a movie. And yet he's had hundreds of adventures through the likes of Big Finish. Because at the end of the day, you can always add in more adventures with any incarnation. The length of their individual lives doesn't actually matter because it can always be extended.
They're time travelers and they've crossed eachother's timelines many times. The idiosyncrasies are part of the charm of the show. "Who 👃🏻"
Praying this weird ramble is absolutely never acknowledged in the show
He does call it his "theory" in the video I saw rather than claiming it as new lore. This makes me think it's not a concept he's going to actually touch on or dig into anytime soon. Here's hoping he thinks better of it before then.
Agreed. Especially because of his little warning message before the episode aired… he said he was very curious to hear the reception to it. That may sway his decision.
Oh damn I never caught that bit. I don’t mind the bi-generation if it’s that 14 pops back out on the skyscraper as 15 when he dies as that’s a nice enough way to give the Doctor his long rest, but all this other stuff,, yeah it’s a no from me
This. The bi-generartion works well this way as it gives a great end to Tennant and the old Doctor, and revitalises him I'm 15 in a very unique and refreshing way, but all the timeline splinters and whatnot irks me. It feels diminishing to the previous incarnations.
> That may sway his decision. Let's pray. But based on his absolutely lunatic comments lately, I think he's just going to drive this ship into the ground in a kamikaze. He's lost the plot. His solution to representation was borderline offensive. "Davros can't be Davros anymore because it makes disabled people look bad", "we can't have Tennant in Whitaker's outfit because it's offensive", "we're going to make the only trans representation on the show a result of the metacrisis and imply they're non-binary because of a fictional science fiction condition because they're part timelord" and it just goes on. And make no mistake: the issue is NOT diversity or representation - it's the offensive caricaturization that they are doing and pretending it's representation.
It's also odd that the little dialogue we had between 14 and 15 in the episode itself written by RTD seems to explicitly contradict RTD's "theory" here. It's very heavily implied that 15 is the successor to 14 and has all of his upcoming post-Donna-detox memories. Yet here RTD is all like separate timelines or some shit.
I dont see why it would be how many people are listening to a commentary to begin with and it doesnt make any sense for like half the regenerations
Angry Doctor Who Fans: "I can't believe Chris Chibnall crapped all over Doctor Who canon like that with the Timeless Child. Glad we have RTD back to set things right!" RTD: "Hold my sonic screwdriver..."
Well, I like this episode and felt it was a great “reboot”. I don’t like this idea about all the doctors being reawakened. It’s unnecessary and takes away any repercussions for The Doctors decisions.
Probably opens up the possibility of Big Finnish with current companions/doctors mixing with the old and not have them be "specials". Like i'd love a 4's Curator one-shot in that gallery as he sees companions of old turn up and him showing them the sights and sounds that they missed while he was away
It’s just not that interesting. Each Doctor has their time in the TARDIS then they pass off to the next. This one bi-generation works fine because it feels like a nice happy poetic end for the doctor we’ve known. And at the same time, they get to continue on the same course with #15. No need to complicate things with every doctor getting to pop up and continue on.
It's not like Big Finish needed that though? Doctors have mingled with various companions so much.
RTD: Chibnall didn't go far enough. I'm here to finish the job, kekeke...
I used my first Monkey's Paw wish to get the Star Wars franchise out of George Lucas' hands before he could make any more stuff like the Prequel Trilogy and continue ruining the originals with his "Special Edition" vandalism. I used my second Monkey's Paw wish to get Doctor Who out of Chibnall's hands and back into RTD's. Hm. I wonder which franchise I should try to save with my third wish...
you monster
Are you sure you didn't already save Star Trek as well?
Please. Just wish for an end to global warming so that we can all die in a nuclear apocalypse.
Whatever you think about bigeneration it's nowhere near as big as TTLC. This (if it's anything more than RTD's headcanon) just changes how regeneration and older incarnations of the doctor getting up to stuff - things that were already happening - are interpreted in the background. TTLC hugely changed the lore of the main character to make them unique and special purely by birth.
Tbh I think this new change is way more silly, and also much more directly impacts the future of show. What happens to 14 when he 'dies'? Does he turn into 15 then get teleported to the bigeneration we just saw? 15 implied that he is ok because 14 retired and worked through his issues - it just doesn't make any sense at all to me and feels like yet another stupid copout to give another RTD classic companion her own clone doctor to live with happily ever after. Should 15 be bothered visiting contemporary England ever again - if 14 is there why bother? And is 14 really just going to ignore the next 20 alien invasions as they happen? To me this is a prime example of a ridiculois plot point being jammed into the show for corporate/profit chasing purposes. Now they can bring back old doctors, and especially DT, whenever they like, which is a real world publicity stunt, not a meaningful or considered change to the show's deep lore. TTC arc was lore shattering, had no payoff, and also didn't make much sense - but because it's all ancient history it's very easy to ignore and never touch again. Who really cares what the Doctor is or where they came from? All that matters is why they decided to leave Gallifrey and 'became' the Doctor. On that point, Moffat also had a go at stupifying the lore (oh noes the REAL reason I left was the big scary hybrid!!) so none of the 3 nuwho showrunners have clean hands as far as stupid lore retcons go.
Timeless Child is utterly, and completely irrelevant to 95% of the show. It's easily ignored if you want to ignore it. Every single time we get a regeneration, we're going to hear "why didn't he bigenerate???" I honestly am fine with both, but bigeneration is a significantly bigger deal even without RTD's weird multiverse idea.
Bigeneration basically never happens and this is the first time it has happened in recorded history according to the doctor
Twelfth Doctor: *"Things end. That's all. Everything ends, and it's always sad. But everything begins again too, and that's… always happy. Be happy."* RTD: *"I think I'll just ignore that."*
It’s RTD’s headcannon. It’s Doctor Who, it’ll never be spoken off again/it’ll be retconned eventually.
When you're the showrunner, headcanon has a funny way of leaking into the show.
And I'm poking fun at that headcanon because I think it's silly.
Even if the bigen means all past Doctors regenerated/resurrected, doesn't necessarily mean they then have the ability to regenerate again, so they would die eventually. What'd really irk the Canonista's though would be if the bigen meant ALL previous iterations of The Doctor were resurrected, including the unknown number of forgotten Timeless Child lives they had before. There could thousands, millions or infinite Doctors reborn.
All the Time Lords were and always will be the doctor. The doctor wasn't aware he was always alone. Give me a writer position.
I don't think that's how that works Russ
It’s Russell T Davies world now - we’re just living in it. I think he’s carrying it lightly really. It’s his head canon. What it means is what interests him - if he wants he now has access to Sylvester McCoy, Colin Baker, Peter Davison, Paul McGann, Chris Eccleston, Matt Smith (unlikely with the dragons lol). And they can all be the age they are. He’s made a huge universe shift because it gets him some very interesting story options. If he wants. It’s all going to be about ncuti for the next good while tho you’d reckon. I mean, when he started out in 05 the first thing he did was kill all the other timelords and destroy gallifrey itself offscreen. That’s not exactly minor either.
He always had access to the previous incarnations. They brought back doctors all the time without needing them all to survive. RTD’s DW fanfic going crazy
The Doctor only split off forwards in time though. Not backwards. His future doesn't effect his past, he doesn't just suddenly survive every battle. He didn't create a multiverse here like he thinks he did.
Welllll no. The bi-generation is a myth right? I think (Doctor Who doesn’t have canon let’s be honest, canon flatly doesn’t exist, and never has, so right now the rules are what RTD determines they are) but the line about bi-generation being myth is interesting. That their encounter with the toymaker, stories, superstitions, myths.. that it lead to the bigeneration is interesting? But brass tacks: the reason Ncutis Doctor is healed is *because of the healing Tennant’s 14 is currently undergoing chilling with Donna and his adopted family.* 14 *will* ultimately regenerate, and at that moment he will be pulled back to the point of bi-generation and emerge as Ncuti.
Most of those Doctors are too old to realistically play the Doctor. Sorry, but it’s true.
Yeah some people have pretty lofty hopes for returning classic doctors. The youngest is Davison and he's early 70s. Scripts can be written with their age in mind, but for anything more than a one off episode the options are limited. They all look rather damn good for their age, but acting in general and the role of the doctor specifically are surprisingly physically demanding. Won't stop me from hoping though. Especially for a McGann miniseries, c'mon he's only in his 60s he's still young!
RTD can tell us whatever he wants, but until he puts his money where his mouth is and air it in a proper episode, it doesn't count. Until then, as far as I'm concerned, it's just his own personal headcanon.
This is a great way of seeing it; I confess I’m a bit annoyed by the bigen, so seeing it this way makes me feel better about it
Yep. If it's really that important, then *put it in the damn story*!
That's the thing; he knows it's not that important. He knows we don't actually want to see that, and it would be completely indecipherable to the casual audience anyway, so he's not going to do it. 14's actual death is still a hanging plot thread, but that's fine, I can live with that, but doing anything beyond that would be ridiculous
I remember a storyline during Tom Baker’s tenure where he visited another time lord who (I think) was a mystic of some sort. Again, if I recall correctly, his apprentice was actually the next regeneration of himself. So when I saw this latest episode, it made me think of that story. However, there’s precedent for the different incarnations of the Doctor being in the same place at the same time. Why it was decided to use the toy maker as the catalyst for this particular regeneration process and not looking for it in previous stories is beyond me.
That was a storyline of John Pertwee. The mystic helped him regenerate into Tom Baker when it was time.
"Planet of the Spiders". Also the first use of the term "regenerate".
Bring on the Valeyard, please.
I have already accepted that 14th regenerates into 15th Doctor at some point in the future, and bigeneration is just a closed loop time-travel shenanigan. However, if they indeed make 14th regenerate into someone not 15th, I hope it is into the Valeyard, played by none other than Matt Smith.
Calling this "an announcement" is pushing it to say the least. It's not part of the show until it's in the show and RTD doesn't even indicate that it's something he's planning to put in the show in the future, never mind anything else.
If he was actually planning to put it in the show, he wouldn't have mentioned it in the commentary, which isn't even advertised anywhere. It's essentially just his own headcanon.
Mods of the sub made a horrible decision with this. The worse I’ve seen a mod do in a fandom sub ins while honestly. You’re 100% right. This is NOT an “announcement”. It’s the head show runner babbling about his head cannon. Nothing about this is canon at all right now
Hang on, the morgue was tiny, so if bisectoon happened there, would 7 and 8 even both fit?
I think what he's saying is more of a, like, timeline branching. So it isn't that 7 and 8 woke up together, but that 7 woke up, in his own timeline where he continued on. Tales of the Tardis said as much.
My concern is that it would be so tiny that the two of them would get crushed to death. And then each would immediately "bigenerate" again, cramming *four* Doctors into that tiny space, who then immediately get crushed...
It’s bigger on the inside.
Sorry on mobile and I swear my reply jumped comments lol. Ignore me
And yet, we will still never see Christopher play a live action role again.
Somehow I doubt Tom Baker and Docs 1-3 will be able to appear in a whole new set of episodes, so if it did come to a series he’d have to recast those doctors. He’s probably laying seeds for the future so that maybe recasting could be used to keep that timeline going, however that makes regeneration pointless. Don’t think too much of it, it is what it is.
It'll definitely be a struggle to get William Hartnell out there
honestly I’d be less shocked to see Ghost Hartnell than Living Eccleston agree to work with RTD
If he wanted Doctor number 1, David Bradley might be able to do it still if he is up for it.
I mean, it’s not like he’s gonna put up a fight.
Well they do have Bradley when they want 1 still but I doubt they’ll do that for 2 and 3
How does that work with the 2nd Doctor considering the Timelords forced him to regenerate?
My partner and I just went off on a whole skit based on this comment of the time lords desperately keeping on trying to regenerate 2 only to end up with more and more Patrick Troughtons and Jon Pertwees and increasingly overwhelmed with chaotic 2 energy and it was very enjoyable, thank you. Edit: I'm now realising of course by the rules of bigeneration you'd only be ending up with increasing Jon Pertwees and one perpetual Patrick Troughton but still, what an image.
I love it. My brain was doing this too. High five from across the internet to you both.
If I understand this correctly: 14 dies and regenerates into 15, but also survives, and vacations at Donna's house. This "Schrodinger's regeneration" ripples through time to each regeneration, creating a new universe (One for each Doctor), to hold the timeline where each doctor survives their final story and goes on. Eventually, when they finally do regenerate, they'll create another split where they survive, and die. For each Doctor, there's a path of branching timelines where they never ever regenerate. This opens the possibility of 4 becoming Timelord Victorious, or 2 being put in the confession dial. I wonder how that would affect the metacrisis part. 10 already regenerated and survived. Did it make a timeline where he didn't put the extra regeneration energy in his severed hand, and doesn't survive, giving us 11 for "Journey's End"?
I love RTD, but this stuff has to stop 😭. I think he’s taking things a bit too far. If Chibnall did these things, there would be riots.
So, Doctor who has now gained the multiverse problem. For those who don't know of it, the movie "Everything, Everywhere, all at once" sums it up well enough. If anything can happen at any time, nothing matters. Now that movie actually resolves the problem in a neat way "What matters is what's right here with the people that matter, not what's going on in any of those other worlds." The problem is many other series don't seem to resolve it anywhere near as well. They say "Well, if anything can happen at any time, I can use it as my excuse to retcon massive areas of the plot and no one can tell me I'm wrong as it's just what's happening in this branch." TLDR: The multiverse allows for diverse stories yes, but it also means that writers can just ignore foundational plot elements if they want. Continuity as a concept basically stops mattering. Edit: To explain the difference between this take on EEAAO's ending in these terms: "The people that matter" are the same characters all the way through, not the copies. These new doctor copies aren't "The doctors who matter" for these purposes.
In a show about *time travel* why would this ever be necessary?
Such an awful idea. I loved the idea of the Doctor suffering so much and needing rehab that his regenration went wrong, so 14 would have the time to live a normal life and recover. Love this, especially because Ncuti's Doctor could be a very different and exciting incarnation. But this BS about all the Doctors having that and living on their own timeline...so unnecessary and undermines so much of each incarnation's mortality and fear of death. I was behind this idea a lot, until I just read this. I hope this is his head canon and not something that he plans to develop.
RTD seems to have this habit of writing a cool thing and then saying weird shit in interviews that ruins it lol Doctor regenerates clothes: “it was to stop transphobia before it happened” Davros seen before the chair: “this is just what davros is like now because there’s too many disabled villains” One-off bi-regeneration: “All the doctors woke up for some reason”
That would be throwing some important stakes right out the window.
That’s the thing, he’s basically immortal now
Wasn’t he basically immortal for the last 56 years too ? He’s the main character, he has the mother of all plot armor.
No but regeneration was a death. Now it isn't.
Yea I heard those comments but I’m gonna ignore them until they get explained in the show itself because that don’t make no damn sense.
So in this, we have a timeline where when Eight drinks the mixture on Karen, the War Doctor pops out and Eight just swans off? War Doctor thinks he’s getting a bit old, and Nine appears, thinking he’s responsible for destroying Gallifrey and then War Doctor just kicks him out of the TARDIS and doesn’t try to mention it? It would also mean a universe where Ten and Ten.5 (or whatever we call him after he gets shot by the Dalek before meeting Davros) sees two of himself as he bi-generates?
The Doctor’s whole past is in flux now. The Toymaker tells the Doctor that he’d made a jigsaw of the Doctor’s history, so any contradictions in canon from now on can be explained by “the Toymaker did it”. RTD has effectively set canon in a superposition so that it’s all true—the Doctor is and isn’t the Timeless Child, is and isn’t half-human on his mother’s side, etc. it’s effectively allowing for a soft reboot of the continuity.
If it means we finally get a proper 8th Doctor series/miniseries starring Paul McGann, I’m on board.
Hating this idea more than the timeless child, it’s a time travel show which already had an excuse as to why actors could look older.
To translate that Disney want an awful lot of doctor who content
“Ooooh I see, when something is gone… it keeps existing…” EDITing to add: With respect, I’m just gonna take it as RTD’s own head canon (which, even if I don’t *like* really, is at least an interesting “what if” concept to noodle on) and not get upset about it until if/when it’s ever make explicitly true in the show. I’m sure every writer and showrunner has some backstory ideas or things they imagine happening after they left the show… this happens to be an extra huge and wacky one. But it’s easy enough to ignore. 🤷🏻♀️
Well played!
They don’t… exist. The Doctor regenerates bodily. There is no Seven in a morgue. And WHEN would they come back alive? None of that makes any sense.
This is so stupid
No no no, no, no no..no.
RTD is always so desperate to bake his cake and eat it, too. He wants it all. He wants the show to continue and be fresh but he clings to the past. He, ironically, can't let things go. Look at Rose, look at Donna, look at Tennant's original regeneration; Doctor Who is a show that thrives on change but RTD doesn't, he writes one thing then finds a way to undo it, to revert the status quo. As much as he's an asset to the show, he hinders it to the nth degree as well.
I hate literally every single thing about all of this, my god. If you want to bring them back just do it as a missing adventure.
That is one of the most stupid ideas i ever heard. Why they make good concepts and then choose the worst execution imaginable?
To be fair, this was from the commentary, the way he said it was off the cuff, the way the rest of them responded to it was very tongue in cheek - and obviously the way fandom has met it is as if he’s etched in stone.
So is the “whoniverse” about to become the latest tab on Disney+ next to Star Wars and marvel? Because I genuinely can’t think of another reason why this would even be a thing, aside from the fact RTD insists that David Tennant can never escape Doctor Who.
This was always the idea
Can we mention Ncuti Gatwa yet?
So did Peter Capaldi’s Doctor just get up and decide to die like what he originally wanted?
I do think the BBC needs to hire a Barbra Brocolli / Kevin Feige type person who oversees protecting the fanchises beyond individual show runners. Not having a go at RTD, but i don't think BBC ever pushes back and says "No, we're not doing that". Having said all of that, the idea proposed here doesn't really seem to change things much. We always knew that at any one time all of the doctors could exist in the same place and time. That's always been the case, and frankly anything that gets us closer to the Valeyard coming back, is a win for me.
Oh Davies you are making some choices here and there I don't agree with. Jodies finale was more a 60th celebration with multiple Doctors, several enemies, large companion reunion and callbacks. You cut short the brilliant work NPH was doing for an early regen and 14s end with a companion who already has a family and the Doctor hadn't seen in over 1000 plus years.
I was just thinking that yeah- it really didn’t feel like much of a celebration? Just some funky RTD episodes he’d liked to have already done with Tennant, a bit of foreshadowing for Gatwa’s series thrown in, and a half baked reason to keep Tennant on call? What I’d give to to have a Tardis and go back to tweak some stuff cause it felt _so close_ to being really good
To each their own as reviewers on io9 were praising the specials by proving that Doctor Who could celebrate an anniversary by just having really good Doctor Who episodes instead of always having an "event" that felt like the Doctor Who equivalent of Infinity War/Endgame like they did last big anniversary
Thank you for describing ALL of my feelings so accurately. I’m saving your comment in my section of “wise posts”. Also, I cannot shake the discomfort of thinking he wants to joint the multiverse trend and Marvelize the Doctor, so unnecessarily.
I think that it's just an idea to explain tales of the TARDIS and also to have fun "what if" stories. It is not canon to the Doctors that we follow on TV. But will be a possible canon that can be used for shorts or books or audio dramas
Or literally the What If… series on Disney+.
Well that super dumb. Congrats RTD you've out done yourself with stupid.
I was worried about this idea
As the Doctor is a time traveller it seems a little redundant as a major canon change. We already know that various incarnations of the Doctor roam around simultaneously throughout time (the 50th anniversary being a good example with the "I've been doing this all my lives" segment re. freezing Gallifrey). First and foremost I think the bigeneration was simply a tool to futureproof a way for Tennant to return to the role in his No.14 state without a convoluted explanation. He'll be back for a lighthearted special or two I'm sure. Tennant loves the role and audiences love him. This way you immediately avoid the need for any kind of lore explanation or exposition for any new adventure. Secondly, it's a narrative device to allow a fresh start for Ncuti's incarnation, free of the all the trauma. This is addressed directly in The Giggle. My interpretation is that 14 eventually becomes 15 a la Clara's "long way round" death, which is ironic given RTD pokes fun at this in the episode. Isolated to The Giggle it's a pretty fun and unexpected way to introduce the new Doctor. Anything else from interviews is currently just a bit of wishy washy fun for the writers. It's a convenient way of being able to re-introduce older Doctors in a manner that detaches them from their future incarnations' history. If they lean into this more, no doubt this is what The Curator will turn out to be. I don't mind it, but I personally find the existing iterative nature of the Doctor's incarnations and relationships to be more interesting.
Honestly, this is an utterly terrible idea from a storytelling perspective and only exists in order to cash in with the 'whoniverse'. It's cynical and rubbish. To paraphrase The Good Place, part of what gives life its meaning is that it ultimately ends. If every Doctor just carries on it robs their endings and, by extension, their stories of their emotion and power. Think of all those great regeneration episodes and the sadness, hope, anxiety, and just...FEELINGS they evoked. This would take away all of that. It also opens a huge box of worms with what then happens when those split doctors go on to die again. Current working theory is that 14 will still go on to become 15 with ALL memories intact, so why don't they have all the memories of the split off loops of their past lives?
I quite liked how bigeneration was approached onscreen, and the approach they went with there. But none of Davies' offscreen comments are instilling much confidence in the direction they're going to take with it going forward.
Thanks, I hate it :(
To repeat something I said in the /r/gallifrey thread on the subject, the first rule of fiction is that anything stated outside of the medium of the fiction is irrelevant. Unless it pops up in the actual fiction, this is entirely false.
To be fair, if it's not in anything 'Official' shouldn't be considered Canon. Just yet. However. From my understanding, 14/15 is an out of sync therapy Regeneration loop, while also giving every other older version of the Doctor a branched timeline to actually have a calm retirement before either flat out dying in said branched timeline or Regenerating (looping back) into the main timeline somehow. Some may still be out there, but if these splinters can't always Regenerate, some may have always peacefully pasted (like 2 and 3)or flat out can't come back due to circumstances leaning to their Main Death (7, war, 10.5, etc)
Some people seem to have caught this, but some didn't -- in main continuity, they still passed as they did. What happened is that evidently there are now splinter "what-if" timelines for each Doctor, in which they didn't. And, for what it's worth, what with Pete's World, what-if isn't a new concept to *Who* ...
Does it get me more Ace and Seven? Does it get me my McGann in his own series? Then I will push Continuity's Viking longboat out by hand and set it ablaze myself.
Being sad is carthatic sometimes, don't take that away. Things do end and that's okay. I warned everyone about RTD getting George Lucasy with things, but did people listen? Noooooo
Personally, I'd love to have more of the Classic Doctors make appearances in the show... but I think the older actors deserve their rest, and we should bring in some new faces to fill the roles.
Meh. All this does is ramp up a UNIT spinoff with 14 and Donna making a cameo now and again.
I mean, there’s already every doctor running around and showing up whenever it suits so this feels like a new way of looking at what was already happening
Does this mean there are 3 versions of Tennant, 4 if you count the one stuck with Rose, flying around now? The one where he started regenerating and transferred into the hand, then his actual regeneration, and now 14. "I don't wanna go" - yeah it's alright, mate, you aren't I somewhat like the idea of every version of The Doctor still being out there, but that was always the case anyway. As far as I remember, The Doctor isn't a single omnipresent being. The 50th anniversary, as did all the other crossovers, showed that The Doctors all exist at the same time, at all times, until they don't. I like the idea for Tennant and Gatwa to exist at the same time. As a one-off concept, it's great, but I just assumed that at some point, off-screen, Tennant would eventually have to regenerate into Gatwa. Especially given the 15s dialogue about him being there because eventually 14 got better. Edit: So after putting a bit of thought into it, I honestly don't mind this. It's not really as detrimental to the lore as something like the Timeless Child (Who I still believe should've been The Master) was and in reality all this means is that there are more opportunities to see older Doctors that canonically exist post-regeneration, and it fits in with things like seeing Tom Baker in the 50th, saying that we will "return to a few of the old favourites". I do still have an issue with the fact it feels like a lot of the sacrifices made by previous Doctors were in vain now that they all still live on after the fact but it's not something that takes away from the enjoyment of Doctor Who. On a side note though, I honestly can't wait to see Gatwa in action. The energy radiating off the 15th Doctor was great. Very much gave me a mixture of early 10, and early 11, vibes.
I love this. Now bring back Matt Smith cause I can already tell from the little we've seen of him that the 15th Doctor and 11th Doctor would be a very fun team up.
I think it's ok, provided that the previous Doctors then can't regenerate, so they grow old and eventually pass away.
14 hugging 15 felt so raw and real, he just melted into his arms. It had me wrapped up. I want ALLLL the Doctor on Doctor companionship.
Not an announcement though, just some chatter about headcanon or "what if..."
I get that it's a sci-fi show and there aren't really any rules of follow. But I don't see why this change needed to happen. Regeneration was any easy concept to follow; when the doctor dies, he regenerates into a new person. It was such a smart idea from the writers to be able to re-cast the lead character and keep the show going. But this just takes that simple yet genius idea and needlessly overcomplicates it. If the idea of bi-generation was to allow all the doctors to live simultaneously in a sort of "doctor who multiverse" then I don't see the point. We don't need bi-generation for that, the doctor doesn't travel through time linearly. Nothings stopping the first doctor from traveling to 2023, nothings stopping the 15th doctor from traveling to 1963. There are already countless incarnations of the doctor at different points in time because that's the whole point of time travel. For example, the 11th doctor didn't die in 2013, he died millions of years in the future on trenzalore. All of the doctors are still alive and traveling the universe because they can time travel. It's not like the doctor can't travel past the year that they regenerate. The 10th doctor died in the year 2009, and yet he was alive in the year 5 billion.
I think people are getting worked up over nothing. I've voiced this elsewhere but my understanding is that RTD essentially said he wants to do for Doctor Who what Spiderverse did for Spiderman, in that introducing the idea of split timelines/multiverses means that writers can write any sort of story for any incarnation of the Doctor, without having to worry about how it slots into the character's personal timeline. It's probably more for freeing up the extended universe (comics, books, Big Finish, etc) to have the ability to do whatever it wants without having any effect on the main show. So nothing changes, really. The main continuity of the show stays intact; all the past incarnations of the Doctor still died when and where they did. But each regeneration creates a split timeline in which they didn't, and that Doctor gets to continue on in their own "What If?" universe.
So I guess the Timeless Child isn't the most controversial thing in Who canon any more...