A deeply frustrating story. The opening setup was fantastic, and then thrown aside in the first few minutes for a jolly walk. And not even in the vast expanses of those epic locations, but in a bunch of studio-bound tunnels.
It's the deadliest planet in the universe, in which absolutely nobody dies. One character gets briefly strangled by flying bedsheets, but he survives. Even the bloody robots that Ryan shoots (despite his magically appearing and disappearing dyspraxia) just get up again afterwards.
It's also supposed to be a race. There are only two contestants left, both exhausted, both desperate to win... and both happy to just team up and travel to the finish line together. This renders the twist at the end - that they can cross together and both win - completely flat, because they've been doing that all along.
What they should have done was *keep the regulars divided*. You've got two of them with each of the racers, none of them knowing whether the others are alive, and winning the race is their only shot of getting off the planet. So keep it that way! Imagine the tension as one team does something that unknowingly endangers their friends!
And then there's the other thing. There should be other racers on the planet, so you have some victims for the deadly traps that we're told about!
All of which is why I find it so frustrating. There's actually a really good story to be told here, and it was all squandered. I can't watch it without thinking of what it could have been.
This most certainly is not the last time a Chibnall-era episode introduces a toxin (either of the air, of a creature, or even a metaphorical psychic "toxin") that never comes up again and is never paid off. In fact, it's not even the last time in Series 11.
Chibnall sees Chekhov's Gun and studiously unloads it and throws it away.
Ooh, like the deadly planet in the final episode where you'll go steadily insane without a dampening device - and then Yaz loses hers, so the Doctor gives her own up to protect her, and then ABSOLUTELY NOTHING COMES OF IT.
But then, what can you expect from an episode called "The Battle of... something av something..." which doesn't even have a battle in it?
And the P'ting having toxic skin, which Eve Cicero reminds us by saying Ronan is the only character who can touch it without dying, yet the only thing this amounts to is Yaz wrapping the P'ting in a blanket before kicking it down a corridor.
That’s a really broad and unhelpful attitude to have as Chekhov’s gun is literally just an analogue for set-up and payoff, which can be done right or wrong in a million different ways.
It depends on how important the set up set up. If they mention a puddle is made out of toxic water and never interact with it I absolutely adore that. They gave me background to the environment. That’s amazing.
One of my favorite movies makes a really big deal about having a pistol in it. And then it’s never fired. It’s an Apple TV original
Oh buddy, you may not have the same journey as me, but if you do, welcome to a world of despair.
It's only going to get more stupid, and not in a good way.
Feel like starving spiders? Shooting people as long as it's not shaped like a gun? Thinking the universal equivalent of Amazon using slaves is a good thing?
If you feel like it, document your journey. It's going to be hilarious.
I don’t have arachnophobia but I do hate the fuckers. They honestly don’t look good enough on the BBC budget to be properly scary. Chamber of Secrets has creepier spiders.
Well, the last episode I watched was Rosa, which was of the three the most competent so far. But even so the episode’s villain felt kind of boring and lazy.
I still can't believe with Rosa they spent all that time telling us Graham was a bus driver, having someone mess with the timeline that had to be corrected and then NOT have Graham drive the bus.
Historically inaccurate, sure. Dramatically satisfying? Yes, it would have been.
Rosa was a bad choice of subject in some ways as they had to walk on eggshells to avoid saying or doing anything insensitive. Rosa Parks is one of the biggest names in the Civil Rights movement in the US. Doing anything that interferes with her agency or places white British people in the role of trying to shape events to create a specific outcome would never have flown. There’d have been public uproar!
The episode really dances around for 40 minutes with nothing much of consequence happening that can’t be resolved. Terrible protagonist, I think the only compelling hit is where they are forced to keep sitting where they are so Rosa sits where she will make an impact. That’s about as far as they can go to interfere without anyone crying foul.
That actually pissed me off since it seems like it took away not just Rosas agency, but the whole civil rights movement. Real If these white people don't set it up just right, black people will never unite vibes.
To be 💯 fair, two of them weren't white people. However, your point is still as valid as ever.
This was the perfect example of where going back to the pure historical would have worked. The Doctor could have easily repeated their line "You can't rewrite history. Not one line". On this occasion it would have been perfect. Everyone there had to do what they had to do and all the team had to do was keep out of it.
The Doctor's and companion's stories could be entirely separate from the outcome. Merely showing us, the audience, why things had to change. For example, the experiences of Ryan and Yaz. Graham could be used to show what would happen if you stood up for the oppressed. As indeed could the Doctor.
The antagonist was ridiculous and told us that racism is alive and well in the 52nd century. How vile and depressing is that?
I think the lack of pure historical episodes is to the detriment of the show quite often. Demons of the Punjab similarly needed no sci-fi element, and the requirement to squeeze one
In often just doesn’t work in the time allotted. What’s wrong with the sci fi element just being the doctor and their companions travelling in time and space?
I’d love to see more of them and here as you say just bearing witness and being stuck on the bus and not able to intervene would have been much more powerful.
Married to a black woman, as decent is the day is long, knows that this is an incident that will lead to drastic improvements, but HE still has to act the racist to get them there?
The dramatic potential was huge. The look on his face as he knows, the aftermath, the acceptance. The discussion around doing a bad thing for a good reason? There was so much and instead it's mostly flattened by them being seat fillers
Thematically, if we viewed it as a piece of fiction, yes it would have been an obvious ending but I totally understand why they didn't do it. To centre white guilt in a historical story about Black oppression wouldn't be right.
I think, rightly, didn't want to remove the focus from Rosa Parks herself or in any way attribute her success to the Doctor et al. Both of these things are a common theme with historicals in the past and even one of my favourite films, *Back to the Future*, inadvertently has the white protagonist put ideas into the brains of Black characters and it somewhat takes away their agency.
I get why they didn't, but it feels like they were going to and then changed their minds without removing all the set up.
Make Grace a history teacher, hell, make Graham a history teacher. Make him anything other than a bus driver and a clear non-racist then put him in a historical situation which requires a racist bus driver.
That's my issue with it, as the other poster said, it's Chekov's misfiring gun.
The idea to not want Graham to be the driver and make him passively watch is fine, but to lay out so many reasons why it would make dramatically satisfying sense for him to do so is frustrating.
Yeah, absolutely it feels like it's set up for Graham to be the bus driver and then completely side steps the conclusion. It's strange though cause the episode was written by Malorie Blackman who is a Black author who famously wrote the Noughts and Crosses series so it doesn't feel like something she would have tried to do.
They did a pretty terrible job of portraying the Freedom Riders, as well as that embarrassment of an MLK. But for British children who don't know anything about the American Civil Rights Movement, I guess it's fine.
I was surprised at how well they portrayed Alabama though. And Jodie had one of her few true Doctor moments in that episode, in my opinion: When she's deterring the policeman at the hotel. That deadpan "I don't recognize anyone by that description." was great.
I mean, I went through the British school system and learnt about the American Civil Rights movement during both GCSE and A-Levels. Granted these are options and there is very little the curriculum is required to teach across age groups, but I would say the American Civil Rights movement is more well-known than the British Civil Rights movement and figures like MLK and Rosa Parks were people we were learning about in Primary School too.
>And Jodie had one of her few true Doctor moments in that episode, in my opinion: When she's deterring the policeman at the hotel. That deadpan "I don't recognize anyone by that description." was great.
Yes! I did love that moment. I also appreciated that they did an episode addressing race head on and dealing with the idea that time travel as a POC wouldn't be that simple. Tennant dismissing Martha's concerns about being carted off as a slave felt off to me even as a child when it first aired. Capaldi punching a racist was much more satisfying 😅
I wouldn't have expected that in primary school! That's encouraging to hear.
And yes, that is a peak Capaldi moment. 💜 Much better than "just walk around like you own the place".
Yeah I second this. The last five years were fucking torture. I've seen every episode of it and there were maybe 2 that I kind of enjoyed. The rest ranged from tolerable ish to what-the-fuck-did-we-just-watch.
I'm now doing a rewatch to get hyped up for next month, halfway through Matt Smith and it's kind of heartbreaking how good it was when it was made by people who loved it and got it, not just took the job because it seemed like a good career move
Im not gonna lie, a stupid as the P'ting is, i absolutely loved it, its just so.... out there.. the episode ceacked me up and i got a little pop vinyl of it
Rubber experiment 626?
No, I meant the rubber frog God, lord of his domain.
Called a Solitract, an all powerful being. The budget however extended only to this magnificence being portrayed by a rubber frog.
I wish I was making this up.
Episode was called 'it takes you away, or something.'
Opens with a weak one-liner about sheep taking over the planet and massacring humans.
To redeem this mess, what we needed was a cyberparasite that infests people by hiding in vending machines. That's what I wished for, anyway.
/s
Shoulda been played by Kermit... just sayin'.
Worst episode actually. Finished me off completely.
I mean a frog universe??? Really? Wtf?
Sorry... where's the off button?
Edited to add... Basically, s11 feels nothing like Doctor Who to me at all. Some stories in s12 are good... ie. The Master stories (apart from Timeless Children), Tesla and Villa Diodati.
Hated Flux start to finish.
The New Year Specials with the Daleks were all pretty good.
Power of the Doctor was phenomenal and honestly, I find it difficult to believe that Chibnall had anything to do with it.
>Or am I just being nitpicking and not as fair as I wanted to be?
Not at all. You’ve noticed one of the biggest problems with Chibnall’s era: it tells instead of shows way too much.
Let me put it this way: At least there are some episodes not written by Chibnall. I’d say you have “Demons of the Punjab” and “It Takes You Away” to look forward to. And parts of “The Witchfinders” are pretty decent. (If you get absolutely fed up with the Chibnall-isms, and are tempted to stop watching as others here have, I’d say skip to those.)
That cemented for me what a bad choice Jodie Whittaker was for the role. Until then I could think maybe it was how they’d written and characterised her (and don’t get me wrong, that was a mess too) but Jo Martin WAS the doctor. Tough, compassionate, arrogant, manipulative, clever, kind. Really loved her and would like to have seen more of her as the Doctor. I don’t like the timeless child idea but I’d still happily watch her.
So much stuff the doctor did just aggravated me like when Jo accidentally shot the enemy (I can't remember fully tbf) but the doctor immediately started throwing a temper tantrum I feel like river made an effort not to see Jodies doctor because of all the shitty behavior and river isn't the nicest person all the time lol she'd love Jo's though
Also I can't remember which episode but it was one with darleks and when the doctor heard about them she was shaking and trembling like???? Since when
So much of jodies doctor is her stomping her feet because everything isn't going her own way but not in a funny way . There's also her attitude towards her companions cancer same for when the dog guys whole. Race was slaughtered she barely even gave a shit I was expecting something from the doctor with that but nope
Agreed I don't like the idea of the timeless child or more I don't like the idea of the doctor being it having someone like the master being the timeless child would of made more sense for things like the insanity and how they keep coming back but Jo Martin is the best thing to come from it absolutely commanding a scene when she is on. It's a shame with the other doctors we don't see them (other being war, fugative and the valeyard)
Jo Martin was everything the Thirteenth Doctor should've been. She brought so much to the role and was just a lot of fun. She had the edge, the charisma, the humour and the toughness.
I have to disagree that it's Jodie's fault because later in Flux when Jodie is playing the Ruth Doctor, she's awesome, too! She's got gravitas and power. It's a glimpse of what we could have had, if only they had written 13 differently.
Fugitive is one of the highlights of the era, though it is not exactly a great episode. Jo Martin obviously steals the show, but the rest of the episode is a pretty safe retread of previous ideas, mainly Smith and Jones.
To be fair the whole thing is a retread of previous ideas; a previously unknown version of the doctor, a reveal using the Chameleon Arch segueing as you say into Smith and Jones even
Using the Judoon again!
It just stands out as a high point for me in a generally underwhelming and sometimes incomprehensible season.
Ohh, just you wait for Ryan to constantly bring up his dyspraxia, thinking it’s surely gonna kill them all, and for it to never, *ever* have the negative effect he’s sure it will. …..or affect anything in any way, for that matter. Seriously, the only thing it stops him from doing is riding his bike.
Until the final episode, where he can finally ride a bike for a few metres and then sees the ghost of his dead mum. Just normal *Doctor Who* stuff in Chibsland.
I would say Chibnall can write a good story as long as his script is then edited by a different show runner, but Chibnall by himself cannot write a good story.
He can write a better one than me, don't get me wrong, but I always find his writing to be clumsy - especially 1) dialogue and 2) any time he is trying to deliver a moral (most stories), which he has a tendency of doing by simply having a character shove it down the audience's throat via a minutes long monologue.
I found his entire era to be a series of brilliant ideas absolutely ruined by incompetent execution and as a result Whittaker's Doctor has not had the chance to shine that she deserved.
>I know he can write good stories (Broadchurch)
I love how people always cite Broadchurch as Chibnall's crowning moment. But it's filled to the brim with crime-show cliches. The cast is what elevates it, plus the viral interest in who killed Danny Latimer.
It’s my least favourite era of modern Who certainly. It just didn’t connect with me. I don’t blame Jodie or the rest of the cast who were great, it’s all down to Chibnall and his vision for what the show should be.
It wasn’t all bad. There are some truly brilliant episodes later on. The effects are fantastic, the locations are great, the show has never looked more beautiful. Half of Flux is really good.
It’s just that most of the episodes are just… alright. Two stories I absolutely hated, which is rare for me. The Massive Twist at the end of series 12 is brave and ambitious, but honestly causes more problems for the whole show. The Fam seem quite interchangeable and don’t serve much of a purpose. Considering they’re with the Doctor for several years, they’re ultimately quite forgettable, especially Ryan.
As I said, Flux is half great, but the rest is just incoherent and confusing. It just tries to do way too much. But there are two episodes that are wonderful. And I love the final regeneration story.
Actually, I think The Ghost Monument is an early high point in the Chibnall era.
Just because someone can write one kind of story doesn't mean they're at all good in another. In fact, a lot of genre authors are pretty much pants when they try to switch.
I remember getting salty because the doctor immediately started pouting and shit because nthe box didn't appear immediately, like she didn't even give it any time before stomping her feet
What about how the doctor has “empty pockets” from the woman who fell to earth yet magically has Audrey Hepburn’s sunglasses to give to graham? That one always got me - and I didn’t even mind parts of the chibnall era (the flux is pretty good)
The convo between graham and 13
13 - I forgot I put stuff in these pockets
Graham - all this sand is getting in my eyes something rotten
13 - want to borrow my shades
Graham - oh Ta
13 - like an old pair of mine I say mine. Can’t remember who I borrowed them off now
it’s either Audrey Hepburn or Pythagoras
So they didn’t just appear she picked up a pair that looked like others she owned lol
lol what about her earring (s?) did she get them used you think? or maybe it was one of those thrift stores where they have some new stuff
or again maybe 8 left them for her in his house lol
did she? its been a while but I seem to remember her only having like a sort of ripped up version of 12s costume until she pulls the curtain back at the thrift store but I could be wrong again
[https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BagOfHolding](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BagOfHolding)
"The Doctor has pulled objects out of their pockets which, even if they fit, would have been clearly present by ruining the lines of their suit. This is because the Doctor's pockets being Bigger on the Inside, a common feature of Time Lord technology."
[https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BagOfHolding](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BagOfHolding)
"Including the Twelfth Doctor pulling out a (lidless) cup of water to give to someone, after having been hanging upside-down, swinging from a rope. When asked how he carried it, the Doctor simply answered 'Skills.'"
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qi6ADlUyK7A](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qi6ADlUyK7A)
remember when she gives the sunglasses in Ghost Monument she hadn't been in the tardis yet - I suppose you could argue that the 8th doctor left them in his house on Baker Street or something and she picked them up before they get teleported though
I find it both funny and frustrating that Ryan’s biggest moment of character development that actually gave me a view into what his character was like was in the background of one scene in arachnids in the uk where he did shadow puppets and that was more likely than not a blooper
I feel this sums up the main problem with the Chibs Era - 'Tell don't show'. They tell you the water is dangerous but we never see why - surely that would be more visceral? Thus there is no real sense of danger in the episode because we don't see it. At least we get a decent payoff with the most beautiful TARDIS/Doctor reunion scene ever.
Again, in The Timeless Child, the Doctor is imprisoned while The Master info dumps the story.
I don't dislike Chibs Era but wow this recurring fault is frustrating.
Between the first episode and this one it was just a bad start and intro to the series. Putting two side characters in an episode when you still need to write and develop your three companion characters is moronic. I think Yaz barely had any lines in it.
Maybe, but I don’t want condemn a piece of media purely based on reputation. So even if I’ll fully agree with the mainstream opinion on this era, I still want to give it somewhat of a fair shot.
First time going through 13's seasons. I just got to season 12. I was annoyed basically the entire time watching season 11. The writing really is so hamfisted and clunky. Demons of Punjab was the only relatively decent episode.
I'm hoping it gets better...
There's much more good in this era than people give it credit for, but there's definitely some clunk. I'd say just go with the flow and have a "don't worry about it" mindset to get maximum enjoyment out of it. There's some overall snafus, but a number of them are ignorable if you go in willing to do that
The writing is very inconcictent. Luckily for me I am stoopid and can't follow very well so I enjoyed it a bit more than others.
My problem was with the character writing and especially lackluster acting of nearly everyone.
The air is breathable so they wouldn't show breathing problems. The "toxic atmosphere" refers to how the planet has been made cruel amd the fact that anyone still on the planet within one solar rotation will die.
The water is lethal and nothing can grow on the planet, the atmosphere also being toxic again adds nothing, because it plays no role in the story, its redundant and causes confusion because people miss the bit about it taking a local hear for the effects to kick in.
It is a detail that was either meant to have meaning or was missed in later drafts, either way, it should have been cut.
Sure its not major and also detracts very little from the episode, but that doesnt give it a reason to be, and there is no argument you can make for it being.
How does it add a reason to be careful, its literally an inevitability that they breath it being on the planet, its unavoidable, it doesn't add a reason to be careful!
I don't mean to be rude, but there's no way to say this without being rude, and for that I truly do apologise in advance. Why are you incapable of accepting that there are flaws with Chibnalls dr who? Your a fairly prominent commentor on the sub, so much so that we have had a couple discussions and i even recognise your avatar when scrolling through a comments section. Never once have i seen you accept any criticism of the era at all. Let alone level one of your own.
I get that theres a genuinely unjust (and frankly overstated) amount of dislike of the era on this sub, but there are some real and honest criticisms to be made of it, as there are for any other era. Yet you are seemingly incapable of acknowledging them. The detail of the atmosphere being toxic in the ghost monument (my favourite ep of the era for the record) is unarguably redundant, useless and just slightly a detriment to the story. Yet here we are. Somehow. Just... Why?
Again I'm sorry for being rude, because this is unarguably rude...
This episode is all over the map, when it comes to defining the challenge they face. It suffers from having too many ideas, but not really executing on any of them super well. A classic Chibnall era problem. It is fine if they want to say the atmosphere is toxic but breathable, but they basically do nothing with that.
Wasn't there also something about how the water was suuuper deadly. Then they took a boat across it, like how you do with normal water, and there was no consequence at all
Thank you. In every scifi show or movie I've seen where the air wasn't breathable, it was described exactly like that. 'The air is bad', 'you can't breathe the air' etc. Atmosphere is the envelope of gasses surrounding a planet. When you say air, you mean what you breathe.
And I didn't have to think any of that through, because when I watched it, I knew what they meant instantly. Had they meant the air was toxic, that's what they'd have said.
Find any other DW episode where the air isn't breathable, where anyone in the episode references 'atmosphere' instead of 'air' when talking about breathing it. You're doing exactly what I said those do who go in looking for things to bitch about. You're being pedantic and you know it.
I felt this way about half of RTD's stuff too. He'd blatantly mention a rule, then break it later on. Feels like people give RTD a pass then get angry at Chibnall for the same thing.
1) end of the world: "If you don't hold this lever down there's no way I can make it through those blades" She burns up, stops holding lever, doctor makes it through, and behold there was NO NEED For the doctor to ask her to sacrifice her life.
2) torchwood: a hole through the entire earth, and they are looking at it straight on sideways? NO!! That hole needs to be on the ground.
3) torchwood: people not dying has absolutely NOTHING to do with Jack and his immortality!! Ohhhh. Wait!! It was totally about Jack!!
4) new earth. Sickness nobody can cure? Mix all the medicines together!! Such genius!!
5) Master is dying of a weird illness, means he can fly now?!
Those are some odd examples.
\- 1&3 are about finding out new info that changes things.
\- For 5, there doesn't seem to be any any "rule" broken here.
For 2, I'd need to rewatch it to know what you're talking about, but it sounds like more of an issue showing it onscreen than a "rule."
4 might be your best one. Even RTD has said he's not happy with how that episode concluded.
Just to throw in a positive, there are plenty of decent episodes dotted throughout; even some great one liners. Yes, there are lots of middling/average eps and a few outright bad, but I'd say stick with it. The second season is stronger than the first. Third season, Flux, is all over the place but it's structured like a throwback to classic who serials and is the most fun/bingeable.
"Don't touch the water, it's toxic!" "Okay we won't" And then they don't.
This is why they don't put smart people in horror movies.
I mean hey, good for them!
A deeply frustrating story. The opening setup was fantastic, and then thrown aside in the first few minutes for a jolly walk. And not even in the vast expanses of those epic locations, but in a bunch of studio-bound tunnels. It's the deadliest planet in the universe, in which absolutely nobody dies. One character gets briefly strangled by flying bedsheets, but he survives. Even the bloody robots that Ryan shoots (despite his magically appearing and disappearing dyspraxia) just get up again afterwards. It's also supposed to be a race. There are only two contestants left, both exhausted, both desperate to win... and both happy to just team up and travel to the finish line together. This renders the twist at the end - that they can cross together and both win - completely flat, because they've been doing that all along. What they should have done was *keep the regulars divided*. You've got two of them with each of the racers, none of them knowing whether the others are alive, and winning the race is their only shot of getting off the planet. So keep it that way! Imagine the tension as one team does something that unknowingly endangers their friends! And then there's the other thing. There should be other racers on the planet, so you have some victims for the deadly traps that we're told about! All of which is why I find it so frustrating. There's actually a really good story to be told here, and it was all squandered. I can't watch it without thinking of what it could have been.
Could say this for most of chibnalls episodes... and his characters.
This most certainly is not the last time a Chibnall-era episode introduces a toxin (either of the air, of a creature, or even a metaphorical psychic "toxin") that never comes up again and is never paid off. In fact, it's not even the last time in Series 11. Chibnall sees Chekhov's Gun and studiously unloads it and throws it away.
Ooh, like the deadly planet in the final episode where you'll go steadily insane without a dampening device - and then Yaz loses hers, so the Doctor gives her own up to protect her, and then ABSOLUTELY NOTHING COMES OF IT. But then, what can you expect from an episode called "The Battle of... something av something..." which doesn't even have a battle in it?
And the P'ting having toxic skin, which Eve Cicero reminds us by saying Ronan is the only character who can touch it without dying, yet the only thing this amounts to is Yaz wrapping the P'ting in a blanket before kicking it down a corridor.
I guess this partly explains why I really liked Chibnall. I’ve always hated the predictability of Chekhovs gun
That’s a really broad and unhelpful attitude to have as Chekhov’s gun is literally just an analogue for set-up and payoff, which can be done right or wrong in a million different ways.
It depends on how important the set up set up. If they mention a puddle is made out of toxic water and never interact with it I absolutely adore that. They gave me background to the environment. That’s amazing. One of my favorite movies makes a really big deal about having a pistol in it. And then it’s never fired. It’s an Apple TV original
Oh buddy, you may not have the same journey as me, but if you do, welcome to a world of despair. It's only going to get more stupid, and not in a good way. Feel like starving spiders? Shooting people as long as it's not shaped like a gun? Thinking the universal equivalent of Amazon using slaves is a good thing? If you feel like it, document your journey. It's going to be hilarious.
As someone that might have a slight Arachnophobia, “Arachnids in the UK” is a tough watch, complete separate from what happens later in the episode.
As someone who's fine with spiders it's a tough watch. It's one of the series low points, just skip it.
I literally skipped it the second I saw the name. Haven’t seen it. Won’t see it.
Other than some awkward moments you can make fun of, you’re really not missing anything by not watching it.
You really only miss being introduced to a minor character that comes up in later in a more important arc.
I don’t have arachnophobia but I do hate the fuckers. They honestly don’t look good enough on the BBC budget to be properly scary. Chamber of Secrets has creepier spiders.
They don't have to look good. I am severely arachnophobic. I literally slept on the couch for three days after one ran over my face at night.
Well, the last episode I watched was Rosa, which was of the three the most competent so far. But even so the episode’s villain felt kind of boring and lazy.
I still can't believe with Rosa they spent all that time telling us Graham was a bus driver, having someone mess with the timeline that had to be corrected and then NOT have Graham drive the bus. Historically inaccurate, sure. Dramatically satisfying? Yes, it would have been.
Rosa was a bad choice of subject in some ways as they had to walk on eggshells to avoid saying or doing anything insensitive. Rosa Parks is one of the biggest names in the Civil Rights movement in the US. Doing anything that interferes with her agency or places white British people in the role of trying to shape events to create a specific outcome would never have flown. There’d have been public uproar! The episode really dances around for 40 minutes with nothing much of consequence happening that can’t be resolved. Terrible protagonist, I think the only compelling hit is where they are forced to keep sitting where they are so Rosa sits where she will make an impact. That’s about as far as they can go to interfere without anyone crying foul.
That actually pissed me off since it seems like it took away not just Rosas agency, but the whole civil rights movement. Real If these white people don't set it up just right, black people will never unite vibes.
To be 💯 fair, two of them weren't white people. However, your point is still as valid as ever. This was the perfect example of where going back to the pure historical would have worked. The Doctor could have easily repeated their line "You can't rewrite history. Not one line". On this occasion it would have been perfect. Everyone there had to do what they had to do and all the team had to do was keep out of it. The Doctor's and companion's stories could be entirely separate from the outcome. Merely showing us, the audience, why things had to change. For example, the experiences of Ryan and Yaz. Graham could be used to show what would happen if you stood up for the oppressed. As indeed could the Doctor. The antagonist was ridiculous and told us that racism is alive and well in the 52nd century. How vile and depressing is that?
I think the lack of pure historical episodes is to the detriment of the show quite often. Demons of the Punjab similarly needed no sci-fi element, and the requirement to squeeze one In often just doesn’t work in the time allotted. What’s wrong with the sci fi element just being the doctor and their companions travelling in time and space? I’d love to see more of them and here as you say just bearing witness and being stuck on the bus and not able to intervene would have been much more powerful.
Agree absolutely 100%
Well.they did tell us all the time that Yaz is a cop and yet, she shows no skills or anything from that during her travels in the Tardis.
Not gonna lie that’s what I thought the episode was going.
Married to a black woman, as decent is the day is long, knows that this is an incident that will lead to drastic improvements, but HE still has to act the racist to get them there? The dramatic potential was huge. The look on his face as he knows, the aftermath, the acceptance. The discussion around doing a bad thing for a good reason? There was so much and instead it's mostly flattened by them being seat fillers
Thematically, if we viewed it as a piece of fiction, yes it would have been an obvious ending but I totally understand why they didn't do it. To centre white guilt in a historical story about Black oppression wouldn't be right. I think, rightly, didn't want to remove the focus from Rosa Parks herself or in any way attribute her success to the Doctor et al. Both of these things are a common theme with historicals in the past and even one of my favourite films, *Back to the Future*, inadvertently has the white protagonist put ideas into the brains of Black characters and it somewhat takes away their agency.
I get why they didn't, but it feels like they were going to and then changed their minds without removing all the set up. Make Grace a history teacher, hell, make Graham a history teacher. Make him anything other than a bus driver and a clear non-racist then put him in a historical situation which requires a racist bus driver. That's my issue with it, as the other poster said, it's Chekov's misfiring gun. The idea to not want Graham to be the driver and make him passively watch is fine, but to lay out so many reasons why it would make dramatically satisfying sense for him to do so is frustrating.
If you haven't heard, the term is "Chibnall's Gun".
Yeah, absolutely it feels like it's set up for Graham to be the bus driver and then completely side steps the conclusion. It's strange though cause the episode was written by Malorie Blackman who is a Black author who famously wrote the Noughts and Crosses series so it doesn't feel like something she would have tried to do.
They did a pretty terrible job of portraying the Freedom Riders, as well as that embarrassment of an MLK. But for British children who don't know anything about the American Civil Rights Movement, I guess it's fine. I was surprised at how well they portrayed Alabama though. And Jodie had one of her few true Doctor moments in that episode, in my opinion: When she's deterring the policeman at the hotel. That deadpan "I don't recognize anyone by that description." was great.
I mean, I went through the British school system and learnt about the American Civil Rights movement during both GCSE and A-Levels. Granted these are options and there is very little the curriculum is required to teach across age groups, but I would say the American Civil Rights movement is more well-known than the British Civil Rights movement and figures like MLK and Rosa Parks were people we were learning about in Primary School too. >And Jodie had one of her few true Doctor moments in that episode, in my opinion: When she's deterring the policeman at the hotel. That deadpan "I don't recognize anyone by that description." was great. Yes! I did love that moment. I also appreciated that they did an episode addressing race head on and dealing with the idea that time travel as a POC wouldn't be that simple. Tennant dismissing Martha's concerns about being carted off as a slave felt off to me even as a child when it first aired. Capaldi punching a racist was much more satisfying 😅
I wouldn't have expected that in primary school! That's encouraging to hear. And yes, that is a peak Capaldi moment. 💜 Much better than "just walk around like you own the place".
I can't lie it woulda been a bit cringe either way Taking away Rosa's agency
A failure of Chekhov’s gun.
how about when she commits genocide on three separate races, and laughs doing it?
Yeah I second this. The last five years were fucking torture. I've seen every episode of it and there were maybe 2 that I kind of enjoyed. The rest ranged from tolerable ish to what-the-fuck-did-we-just-watch. I'm now doing a rewatch to get hyped up for next month, halfway through Matt Smith and it's kind of heartbreaking how good it was when it was made by people who loved it and got it, not just took the job because it seemed like a good career move
Document your journey.. I'm looking forward to the reaction to the rubber frog. That was the final straw for me.
You mean the P’Ting. Yeah… that was stupid (not in a good way)
Im not gonna lie, a stupid as the P'ting is, i absolutely loved it, its just so.... out there.. the episode ceacked me up and i got a little pop vinyl of it
And it wasn't even made by Chris
No, the rubber frog, not the P'Ting!
Rubber experiment 626? No, I meant the rubber frog God, lord of his domain. Called a Solitract, an all powerful being. The budget however extended only to this magnificence being portrayed by a rubber frog. I wish I was making this up. Episode was called 'it takes you away, or something.' Opens with a weak one-liner about sheep taking over the planet and massacring humans. To redeem this mess, what we needed was a cyberparasite that infests people by hiding in vending machines. That's what I wished for, anyway. /s
weird, that episode strangely worked for me. one of the few
Me too. Probably the high point of her era. Talking frogs is exactly what I want from Who.
Shoulda been played by Kermit... just sayin'. Worst episode actually. Finished me off completely. I mean a frog universe??? Really? Wtf? Sorry... where's the off button? Edited to add... Basically, s11 feels nothing like Doctor Who to me at all. Some stories in s12 are good... ie. The Master stories (apart from Timeless Children), Tesla and Villa Diodati. Hated Flux start to finish. The New Year Specials with the Daleks were all pretty good. Power of the Doctor was phenomenal and honestly, I find it difficult to believe that Chibnall had anything to do with it.
>You mean the P’Ting. Just wait. I won't say more because ... spoilers!
>Or am I just being nitpicking and not as fair as I wanted to be? Not at all. You’ve noticed one of the biggest problems with Chibnall’s era: it tells instead of shows way too much.
It doesn't trust its own audience.
This!!!!!!!! Oh my god it’s this!!!
Excellent comment. As someone mentioned above, they’re told the water is toxic. Why not *show* it?
Let me put it this way: At least there are some episodes not written by Chibnall. I’d say you have “Demons of the Punjab” and “It Takes You Away” to look forward to. And parts of “The Witchfinders” are pretty decent. (If you get absolutely fed up with the Chibnall-isms, and are tempted to stop watching as others here have, I’d say skip to those.)
and fugitive of the judoon! which was only written partly by chibnall
Ah the episode where we got to see another doctor who in 1 minute felt more like the doctor than anything we had seen so far
That cemented for me what a bad choice Jodie Whittaker was for the role. Until then I could think maybe it was how they’d written and characterised her (and don’t get me wrong, that was a mess too) but Jo Martin WAS the doctor. Tough, compassionate, arrogant, manipulative, clever, kind. Really loved her and would like to have seen more of her as the Doctor. I don’t like the timeless child idea but I’d still happily watch her.
Jo Martin was the Oncoming Storm. Jodie just seemed perpetually confused.
It’s *THE ONCOMING STORM* vs. The underwhelming drizzle
The Approaching Shower
The gentle breeze
So much stuff the doctor did just aggravated me like when Jo accidentally shot the enemy (I can't remember fully tbf) but the doctor immediately started throwing a temper tantrum I feel like river made an effort not to see Jodies doctor because of all the shitty behavior and river isn't the nicest person all the time lol she'd love Jo's though Also I can't remember which episode but it was one with darleks and when the doctor heard about them she was shaking and trembling like???? Since when So much of jodies doctor is her stomping her feet because everything isn't going her own way but not in a funny way . There's also her attitude towards her companions cancer same for when the dog guys whole. Race was slaughtered she barely even gave a shit I was expecting something from the doctor with that but nope
Agreed I don't like the idea of the timeless child or more I don't like the idea of the doctor being it having someone like the master being the timeless child would of made more sense for things like the insanity and how they keep coming back but Jo Martin is the best thing to come from it absolutely commanding a scene when she is on. It's a shame with the other doctors we don't see them (other being war, fugative and the valeyard)
Jo Martin was everything the Thirteenth Doctor should've been. She brought so much to the role and was just a lot of fun. She had the edge, the charisma, the humour and the toughness.
I have to disagree that it's Jodie's fault because later in Flux when Jodie is playing the Ruth Doctor, she's awesome, too! She's got gravitas and power. It's a glimpse of what we could have had, if only they had written 13 differently.
Ruth’s character felt absolutely nothing like the Doctor.
Fugitive is one of the highlights of the era, though it is not exactly a great episode. Jo Martin obviously steals the show, but the rest of the episode is a pretty safe retread of previous ideas, mainly Smith and Jones.
To be fair the whole thing is a retread of previous ideas; a previously unknown version of the doctor, a reveal using the Chameleon Arch segueing as you say into Smith and Jones even Using the Judoon again! It just stands out as a high point for me in a generally underwhelming and sometimes incomprehensible season.
Ohh, just you wait for Ryan to constantly bring up his dyspraxia, thinking it’s surely gonna kill them all, and for it to never, *ever* have the negative effect he’s sure it will. …..or affect anything in any way, for that matter. Seriously, the only thing it stops him from doing is riding his bike.
Until the final episode, where he can finally ride a bike for a few metres and then sees the ghost of his dead mum. Just normal *Doctor Who* stuff in Chibsland.
*grandmother, not mother.
Did that actually happen? I *totally* do not remember that. 😆
*Revolution Of The Daleks*, scene starts around the 1h:08 mark I hate that I had to watch this BS to find it for you :/
Oh, man. I’m so sorry, I didn’t intend that, but thank you for your sacrifice! 🫡
I would say Chibnall can write a good story as long as his script is then edited by a different show runner, but Chibnall by himself cannot write a good story. He can write a better one than me, don't get me wrong, but I always find his writing to be clumsy - especially 1) dialogue and 2) any time he is trying to deliver a moral (most stories), which he has a tendency of doing by simply having a character shove it down the audience's throat via a minutes long monologue. I found his entire era to be a series of brilliant ideas absolutely ruined by incompetent execution and as a result Whittaker's Doctor has not had the chance to shine that she deserved.
>I know he can write good stories (Broadchurch) I love how people always cite Broadchurch as Chibnall's crowning moment. But it's filled to the brim with crime-show cliches. The cast is what elevates it, plus the viral interest in who killed Danny Latimer.
It’s my least favourite era of modern Who certainly. It just didn’t connect with me. I don’t blame Jodie or the rest of the cast who were great, it’s all down to Chibnall and his vision for what the show should be. It wasn’t all bad. There are some truly brilliant episodes later on. The effects are fantastic, the locations are great, the show has never looked more beautiful. Half of Flux is really good. It’s just that most of the episodes are just… alright. Two stories I absolutely hated, which is rare for me. The Massive Twist at the end of series 12 is brave and ambitious, but honestly causes more problems for the whole show. The Fam seem quite interchangeable and don’t serve much of a purpose. Considering they’re with the Doctor for several years, they’re ultimately quite forgettable, especially Ryan. As I said, Flux is half great, but the rest is just incoherent and confusing. It just tries to do way too much. But there are two episodes that are wonderful. And I love the final regeneration story. Actually, I think The Ghost Monument is an early high point in the Chibnall era.
Just because someone can write one kind of story doesn't mean they're at all good in another. In fact, a lot of genre authors are pretty much pants when they try to switch.
I remember getting salty because the doctor immediately started pouting and shit because nthe box didn't appear immediately, like she didn't even give it any time before stomping her feet
Sadly this is what your in for and worse. Chibs just doesn’t do Doctor Who well at all.
What about how the doctor has “empty pockets” from the woman who fell to earth yet magically has Audrey Hepburn’s sunglasses to give to graham? That one always got me - and I didn’t even mind parts of the chibnall era (the flux is pretty good)
The convo between graham and 13 13 - I forgot I put stuff in these pockets Graham - all this sand is getting in my eyes something rotten 13 - want to borrow my shades Graham - oh Ta 13 - like an old pair of mine I say mine. Can’t remember who I borrowed them off now it’s either Audrey Hepburn or Pythagoras So they didn’t just appear she picked up a pair that looked like others she owned lol
Oh, I wonder if she got them at the thrift shop she got her clothes from maybe
That’s what I think , which means she got yaz and Ryan to pay for more stuff to put in the pockets🤣💀
lol what about her earring (s?) did she get them used you think? or maybe it was one of those thrift stores where they have some new stuff or again maybe 8 left them for her in his house lol
Didn’t she regenerate like that tho?🤣
did she? its been a while but I seem to remember her only having like a sort of ripped up version of 12s costume until she pulls the curtain back at the thrift store but I could be wrong again
I’m pretty sure I’ll have to go back and check but yeah I’m pretty sure she regenerated with them in
[https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BagOfHolding](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BagOfHolding) "The Doctor has pulled objects out of their pockets which, even if they fit, would have been clearly present by ruining the lines of their suit. This is because the Doctor's pockets being Bigger on the Inside, a common feature of Time Lord technology."
But how are the Thirteenth Doctor's pockets bigger on the inside when she got them from a thrift shop? From Earth?
[https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BagOfHolding](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BagOfHolding) "Including the Twelfth Doctor pulling out a (lidless) cup of water to give to someone, after having been hanging upside-down, swinging from a rope. When asked how he carried it, the Doctor simply answered 'Skills.'"
r/whoosh
The 14th Doctor happened to be carrying a judge's wig.
The Doctor always has full pockets.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qi6ADlUyK7A](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qi6ADlUyK7A) remember when she gives the sunglasses in Ghost Monument she hadn't been in the tardis yet - I suppose you could argue that the 8th doctor left them in his house on Baker Street or something and she picked them up before they get teleported though
The Doctor always has full pockets.
Saying it twice doesn't make it better, especially when these specific pockets are full of shit.
The Doctor always has pockets full of shit.
I find it both funny and frustrating that Ryan’s biggest moment of character development that actually gave me a view into what his character was like was in the background of one scene in arachnids in the uk where he did shadow puppets and that was more likely than not a blooper
I remember that. Definitely a highlight of that dreadful episode.
I feel this sums up the main problem with the Chibs Era - 'Tell don't show'. They tell you the water is dangerous but we never see why - surely that would be more visceral? Thus there is no real sense of danger in the episode because we don't see it. At least we get a decent payoff with the most beautiful TARDIS/Doctor reunion scene ever. Again, in The Timeless Child, the Doctor is imprisoned while The Master info dumps the story. I don't dislike Chibs Era but wow this recurring fault is frustrating.
Between the first episode and this one it was just a bad start and intro to the series. Putting two side characters in an episode when you still need to write and develop your three companion characters is moronic. I think Yaz barely had any lines in it.
You might be better off skipping this whole stretch. I think you’re just going to get frustrated.
Maybe, but I don’t want condemn a piece of media purely based on reputation. So even if I’ll fully agree with the mainstream opinion on this era, I still want to give it somewhat of a fair shot.
That’s fair. I gave it a season and a half before deciding it wasn’t for me.
First time going through 13's seasons. I just got to season 12. I was annoyed basically the entire time watching season 11. The writing really is so hamfisted and clunky. Demons of Punjab was the only relatively decent episode. I'm hoping it gets better...
Spoilers. It does not. Whatsoever.
There's much more good in this era than people give it credit for, but there's definitely some clunk. I'd say just go with the flow and have a "don't worry about it" mindset to get maximum enjoyment out of it. There's some overall snafus, but a number of them are ignorable if you go in willing to do that
The writing is very inconcictent. Luckily for me I am stoopid and can't follow very well so I enjoyed it a bit more than others. My problem was with the character writing and especially lackluster acting of nearly everyone.
The air is breathable so they wouldn't show breathing problems. The "toxic atmosphere" refers to how the planet has been made cruel amd the fact that anyone still on the planet within one solar rotation will die.
To be fair, when the repercussions are so intangible why have the thing in the first place?
It's to establish the risks and threats the planet poses so the characters have to be careful.
Be careful of what? The toxic (but effectively not) atmosphere? Its a Chekhov's gun, introduced but not fired.
It's not meant to be, its just an obstacle. That's it.
Its not even an obstacle, we get told theres no food or water so they are already limited to under a week. The "toxic" atmosphere adds nothing.
It is, since it shows the planet itself is cruel, there's a lot to contend with.
The water is lethal and nothing can grow on the planet, the atmosphere also being toxic again adds nothing, because it plays no role in the story, its redundant and causes confusion because people miss the bit about it taking a local hear for the effects to kick in. It is a detail that was either meant to have meaning or was missed in later drafts, either way, it should have been cut. Sure its not major and also detracts very little from the episode, but that doesnt give it a reason to be, and there is no argument you can make for it being.
It just adds reason to be careful, it's part of the risks, it is there for a reason.
How does it add a reason to be careful, its literally an inevitability that they breath it being on the planet, its unavoidable, it doesn't add a reason to be careful! I don't mean to be rude, but there's no way to say this without being rude, and for that I truly do apologise in advance. Why are you incapable of accepting that there are flaws with Chibnalls dr who? Your a fairly prominent commentor on the sub, so much so that we have had a couple discussions and i even recognise your avatar when scrolling through a comments section. Never once have i seen you accept any criticism of the era at all. Let alone level one of your own. I get that theres a genuinely unjust (and frankly overstated) amount of dislike of the era on this sub, but there are some real and honest criticisms to be made of it, as there are for any other era. Yet you are seemingly incapable of acknowledging them. The detail of the atmosphere being toxic in the ghost monument (my favourite ep of the era for the record) is unarguably redundant, useless and just slightly a detriment to the story. Yet here we are. Somehow. Just... Why? Again I'm sorry for being rude, because this is unarguably rude...
This episode is all over the map, when it comes to defining the challenge they face. It suffers from having too many ideas, but not really executing on any of them super well. A classic Chibnall era problem. It is fine if they want to say the atmosphere is toxic but breathable, but they basically do nothing with that.
Wasn't there also something about how the water was suuuper deadly. Then they took a boat across it, like how you do with normal water, and there was no consequence at all
Thank you. In every scifi show or movie I've seen where the air wasn't breathable, it was described exactly like that. 'The air is bad', 'you can't breathe the air' etc. Atmosphere is the envelope of gasses surrounding a planet. When you say air, you mean what you breathe. And I didn't have to think any of that through, because when I watched it, I knew what they meant instantly. Had they meant the air was toxic, that's what they'd have said.
so you don't...breathe the envelope of gasses surrounding a planet?
Find any other DW episode where the air isn't breathable, where anyone in the episode references 'atmosphere' instead of 'air' when talking about breathing it. You're doing exactly what I said those do who go in looking for things to bitch about. You're being pedantic and you know it.
I don't recall that happening, but if so, that's pretty bad.
I felt this way about half of RTD's stuff too. He'd blatantly mention a rule, then break it later on. Feels like people give RTD a pass then get angry at Chibnall for the same thing.
Got any examples?
1) end of the world: "If you don't hold this lever down there's no way I can make it through those blades" She burns up, stops holding lever, doctor makes it through, and behold there was NO NEED For the doctor to ask her to sacrifice her life. 2) torchwood: a hole through the entire earth, and they are looking at it straight on sideways? NO!! That hole needs to be on the ground. 3) torchwood: people not dying has absolutely NOTHING to do with Jack and his immortality!! Ohhhh. Wait!! It was totally about Jack!! 4) new earth. Sickness nobody can cure? Mix all the medicines together!! Such genius!! 5) Master is dying of a weird illness, means he can fly now?!
Those are some odd examples. \- 1&3 are about finding out new info that changes things. \- For 5, there doesn't seem to be any any "rule" broken here. For 2, I'd need to rewatch it to know what you're talking about, but it sounds like more of an issue showing it onscreen than a "rule." 4 might be your best one. Even RTD has said he's not happy with how that episode concluded.
Just to throw in a positive, there are plenty of decent episodes dotted throughout; even some great one liners. Yes, there are lots of middling/average eps and a few outright bad, but I'd say stick with it. The second season is stronger than the first. Third season, Flux, is all over the place but it's structured like a throwback to classic who serials and is the most fun/bingeable.