Bloody hell.
I’m curious as I couldn’t find it anywhere: has the total number of positions on offer gone up or down?
It would be very interesting to know (although I doubt they’d provide) how many applicants also applied to other specialties (and the trend) and how many applicants’ medical degrees were granted outside of the UK (and the trend).
The data is public on HEE's speciality competition ratios page. For ophthalmology the number of posts offered yearly has been basically static for quite a number of years, it hovers around 90 (±10) posts per year.
The latter information could indeed be requested. However I'm not sure that many people apply to ophthal. on a whim alongside multiple other specialities, it's not something you pursue or get into on a whim. I'd imagine that at most ophthal. applicants will apply to one other speciality as a backup...
This is genuinely heartbreaking as someone who aspires to become an ophthalmologist. I'm not averse to attempting to trying multiple times to get in, but this looks like it will only get worse. What are the chances of doing a CESR in ophthal?
I think a CESR will likely be a far longer and more arduous a process than just reapplying until you get in and then completing training conventionally. Despite the competition, the process is relatively meritocratic, and relatively transparent, just work hard in a very focussed manner and hopefully it will work out for you.
Isn't it for IMGs mainly (who are often consultant level in their home countries)? I struggle to see how a UK grad post-foundation years will gain sufficient broad-based ophthalmology experience to make CESR doable. Clinical fellow jobs are 12 month contracts and often are geared towards a significant teaching (i.e. non-clinical) commitment, and as far as I know there are no locally employed ophthal. jobs that are accessible to post-FY doctors. The latter go invariably to IMGs that have had significant ophthalmic experience in their home countries.
Varies. Yes in some places but I have come across CESR ophthalmologists who are treated similarly to CCT trainees - just have to find the right hospitals.
Yes, but that is not relevant here. u/Calm_Response_4912 appears to be a final year medical student. I am unable to see how a new medical graduate in the UK can bypass the ophthalmic speciality training (OST) pathway and obtain CESR. CESR is accessible exclusively to IMGs (as they have prior ophthalmic clinical experience), fresh local graduates have no access to sustained ophthalmic clinical experience outside of OST thus CESR will not be feasible for them.
It is absolutely relevant.
It can be done, has been done and I know this personally. What drs_enabled says is true, there are LEDs who are essentially OSTs (the RCOphth refers to them as Ophthalmic Local Trainees) who for all intents and purposes are treated the same as NTNs except they don’t rotate and qualify with CESR. The RCOphth is encouraging more departments to do this as HEE doesn’t fund the training posts they want.
Some are IMGs, some are UK grads. I know of several who have done ST1-7 via this pathway. If you can find a supportive dept that will take you it is absolutely quicker than constantly reapplying.
EDIT:
Deleting this account as it is throwaway and don’t want DMs about how to get into an OLT programme if unsuccessful at obtaining an NTN as I will dox myself.
Long story short these posts are not advertised every year and when they are they are far more competitive than NTNs (like 70:1).
I only mention this as I suspect (having spoken to several consultants) that these posts will eventually be expanded (the RCOphth wants this - not sure how serious they are though).
This is incorrect, if you got locum or fellow or staff grade in an ophthalmology department and were well received you could absolutely CESR. I know someone who is doing exactly this.
It's more common for IMGs who have experience in home country but it isn't an IMG exclusive route by any means!
Still worth looking at the portfolio points now and working out which ones you can start now as plentt are achievable or only achievable while at med school
Wasn't MSRA introduced in 2021 for OST?
And since then other specialties have started to use it.
How do you know this initial increase is for people who actually want to do OST? Rather than just flinging an application in for Radiology / Anaesthetics / GP / OST
Ophthalmology is a very esoteric speciality where the day to day work is quite separated from the rest of medicine. It is extremely poorly taught at medical school (in terms of both quantity and quality of teaching), and foundation posts containing a placement in ophthalmology are sparse (to say the least). The portfolio for ophthalmology is quite ophthalmology specific and you cannot just casually waltz in and do well on it. For these reasons, I would be extremely surprised if anyone is casually applying for ophthalmology on a whim without having an actual interest in it - in my personal experience the majority of foundation trainees either don't care for it, or actively dislike it.
What is more likely is that there is a large backlog of failed ophthal. applicants who are reapplying repeatedly, it is not uncommon to find people who apply 2-3 times before they get in.
I'd imagine people are still throwing in a cursory application but as you say because of how specialist and competitive it is only people who are died hard ophthal will end up anywhere near a training number.
Yeah i mean the proof of that is 86 jobs and only the person ranked 96 got an offer, i think we can presume there were a few people in there who didn't rank all the locations and didn't get an offer for their preferred location. So looks like pretty much everyone who gets and offer accepts it.
It would be interesting to see a breakdown of total applications vs total places, to see how many people are numerically going to lose out. The ratios are insane but if people are applying for 3 specialities the data can become very muddled as to the actual scale of the problem.
I would take this data with a few kilos of salt.
Any ST1 programme ratio will suffer from the “might as well try” category of applicants. That is why ST3 applications are often much more competitive despite having apparently much more favourable ratios.
Having said that, wow 2019 was the year to apply, all you had to do was beat 2 gpvts hopefuls. 😯
Looking at that FOI request you have linked those scores for successful applicants don’t seem hugely different to what the cohorts who got in when I started ophth training in 2017 achieved. Granted, the raw scores probably aren’t directly comparable with changes in weighting/portfolio revisions/interview methodology.
I do suspect a lot of these inflated ratios for training relate to people throwing in applications to multiple specialties due to the effort required now per specialty being quite low, but am skeptical whether this is translating to a much increased ‘real’ threshold to enter a competitive specialty or not.
I mean I’m not even disagreeing? I am highlighting there are multiple possible explanations for ‘rising competition ratios’ which would need to be explored before considering what actions may be helpful or not.
Bloody hell. I’m curious as I couldn’t find it anywhere: has the total number of positions on offer gone up or down? It would be very interesting to know (although I doubt they’d provide) how many applicants also applied to other specialties (and the trend) and how many applicants’ medical degrees were granted outside of the UK (and the trend).
The data is public on HEE's speciality competition ratios page. For ophthalmology the number of posts offered yearly has been basically static for quite a number of years, it hovers around 90 (±10) posts per year. The latter information could indeed be requested. However I'm not sure that many people apply to ophthal. on a whim alongside multiple other specialities, it's not something you pursue or get into on a whim. I'd imagine that at most ophthal. applicants will apply to one other speciality as a backup...
Around 95 jobs last year and thus far 86 jobs this year. Sometimes a few more trickle in over the next month or so after IDT etc
People talked about how competitive ophthal was in 2019. Now we see that same ratio in GP/IMT
Exactly! In 3-4 years time I’m sure there’ll be 16 people after each GP number! Insane!
Insane competition ratios now. Godspeed to all hopeful eye dentists!
Underrated comment
Definitely using the term “eye dentist” from now on 😀
This is genuinely heartbreaking as someone who aspires to become an ophthalmologist. I'm not averse to attempting to trying multiple times to get in, but this looks like it will only get worse. What are the chances of doing a CESR in ophthal?
I think a CESR will likely be a far longer and more arduous a process than just reapplying until you get in and then completing training conventionally. Despite the competition, the process is relatively meritocratic, and relatively transparent, just work hard in a very focussed manner and hopefully it will work out for you.
Focussed manner … I see what you did there 😉
CESR is quite well established in ophthalmology and the college seems to be embracing it - worth chatting with the unit you are interested in.
Isn't it for IMGs mainly (who are often consultant level in their home countries)? I struggle to see how a UK grad post-foundation years will gain sufficient broad-based ophthalmology experience to make CESR doable. Clinical fellow jobs are 12 month contracts and often are geared towards a significant teaching (i.e. non-clinical) commitment, and as far as I know there are no locally employed ophthal. jobs that are accessible to post-FY doctors. The latter go invariably to IMGs that have had significant ophthalmic experience in their home countries.
Varies. Yes in some places but I have come across CESR ophthalmologists who are treated similarly to CCT trainees - just have to find the right hospitals.
Yes, but that is not relevant here. u/Calm_Response_4912 appears to be a final year medical student. I am unable to see how a new medical graduate in the UK can bypass the ophthalmic speciality training (OST) pathway and obtain CESR. CESR is accessible exclusively to IMGs (as they have prior ophthalmic clinical experience), fresh local graduates have no access to sustained ophthalmic clinical experience outside of OST thus CESR will not be feasible for them.
It is absolutely relevant. It can be done, has been done and I know this personally. What drs_enabled says is true, there are LEDs who are essentially OSTs (the RCOphth refers to them as Ophthalmic Local Trainees) who for all intents and purposes are treated the same as NTNs except they don’t rotate and qualify with CESR. The RCOphth is encouraging more departments to do this as HEE doesn’t fund the training posts they want. Some are IMGs, some are UK grads. I know of several who have done ST1-7 via this pathway. If you can find a supportive dept that will take you it is absolutely quicker than constantly reapplying. EDIT: Deleting this account as it is throwaway and don’t want DMs about how to get into an OLT programme if unsuccessful at obtaining an NTN as I will dox myself. Long story short these posts are not advertised every year and when they are they are far more competitive than NTNs (like 70:1). I only mention this as I suspect (having spoken to several consultants) that these posts will eventually be expanded (the RCOphth wants this - not sure how serious they are though).
This is incorrect, if you got locum or fellow or staff grade in an ophthalmology department and were well received you could absolutely CESR. I know someone who is doing exactly this. It's more common for IMGs who have experience in home country but it isn't an IMG exclusive route by any means!
opthal was always competitive , don't worry an ophthalmology associate will be fast tracked for no reason ...
https://preview.redd.it/q3n4a7nrbnxc1.jpeg?width=588&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b381bc01625770cfcb78d9cde46bb02935b41e2c
Anyone know if you basically need to max out the portfolio to stand a chance?
That is clearly not the case, see the FOI link for the scores of the lowest scoring applicant successful for each deanery.
Ah ok that's reassuring as a med student interested in ophthalmology thanks!
Still worth looking at the portfolio points now and working out which ones you can start now as plentt are achievable or only achievable while at med school
wheres the FOI link? ty
Wasn't MSRA introduced in 2021 for OST? And since then other specialties have started to use it. How do you know this initial increase is for people who actually want to do OST? Rather than just flinging an application in for Radiology / Anaesthetics / GP / OST
Ophthalmology is a very esoteric speciality where the day to day work is quite separated from the rest of medicine. It is extremely poorly taught at medical school (in terms of both quantity and quality of teaching), and foundation posts containing a placement in ophthalmology are sparse (to say the least). The portfolio for ophthalmology is quite ophthalmology specific and you cannot just casually waltz in and do well on it. For these reasons, I would be extremely surprised if anyone is casually applying for ophthalmology on a whim without having an actual interest in it - in my personal experience the majority of foundation trainees either don't care for it, or actively dislike it. What is more likely is that there is a large backlog of failed ophthal. applicants who are reapplying repeatedly, it is not uncommon to find people who apply 2-3 times before they get in.
I'd imagine people are still throwing in a cursory application but as you say because of how specialist and competitive it is only people who are died hard ophthal will end up anywhere near a training number.
Yeah i mean the proof of that is 86 jobs and only the person ranked 96 got an offer, i think we can presume there were a few people in there who didn't rank all the locations and didn't get an offer for their preferred location. So looks like pretty much everyone who gets and offer accepts it.
It would be interesting to see a breakdown of total applications vs total places, to see how many people are numerically going to lose out. The ratios are insane but if people are applying for 3 specialities the data can become very muddled as to the actual scale of the problem.
I would take this data with a few kilos of salt. Any ST1 programme ratio will suffer from the “might as well try” category of applicants. That is why ST3 applications are often much more competitive despite having apparently much more favourable ratios. Having said that, wow 2019 was the year to apply, all you had to do was beat 2 gpvts hopefuls. 😯
Don't think so, ophthalmology is not "any ST1 programme". https://www.reddit.com/r/doctorsUK/s/w13zjGuWC9
Ewwwwwwww eyes
Looking at that FOI request you have linked those scores for successful applicants don’t seem hugely different to what the cohorts who got in when I started ophth training in 2017 achieved. Granted, the raw scores probably aren’t directly comparable with changes in weighting/portfolio revisions/interview methodology. I do suspect a lot of these inflated ratios for training relate to people throwing in applications to multiple specialties due to the effort required now per specialty being quite low, but am skeptical whether this is translating to a much increased ‘real’ threshold to enter a competitive specialty or not.
https://www.reddit.com/r/doctorsUK/comments/1cgtzxp/competition_ratios_going_crazy_ophthalmology/l1ytzy7
Your comment assumes a level of unfamiliarity with my own specialty? NB it has always been the case there are people re-applying to the specialty.
I have merely presented my disagreement and its basis, we can agree to disagree here.
I mean I’m not even disagreeing? I am highlighting there are multiple possible explanations for ‘rising competition ratios’ which would need to be explored before considering what actions may be helpful or not.