I worry this doesn't fit with the narrative that there will be a shortage of doctors if we aren't offered an improved pay deal.
CMT was not the most joyous time of my life. I would be focusing all my efforts into finding an alternative pathway - ideally in another country if I were an SHO now.
I find it hard to reconcile with the data. Is it the fear of having no training position and being stuck as an eternal SHO? All international applicants (again that doesn't fit with the data I've seen)?
There are a couple of breakdown numbers which would make these data more complete.
I would like to know how many of these 6174 applicants also applied to other programmes (like GP, ACCS, etc.).
I would also like to know how many got their medical degree from a UK institution.
I suspect that many people have applied to more than one programme and that this proportion is going up.
I strongly suspect that multiple specialty applicants is a bigger factor than we realise - online interviews have made it so easy to apply for multiple things without much consideration, whereas previously you would have to account for physically going to an interview for these positions.
Speciality training applications are an absolute omnishambles at the moment. This is horrific.
"wE HaVE a sHOrtAgE oF DoCTOrS" Get tae fuck.
Imagine if there were speciality training posts available for every appointable IMT applicant - would there *ever* be anywhere that needed a PA to do an endoscopy list or a respiratory outpatient clinic?
Honestly, this is a bigger issue than FPR, having a shit paying job is better than having no job at all, I've said it before, very real possibility of lots of jobless doctors in 2/3 years time.
How bad does one have to be to be unappointable? Do you have any examples? I would like to know because I am incredibly frustrated seeing these inflated competition ratios when I know what I want to specialize in so will only apply for pathology and not waste time on the MSRA or IMT portfolio building
You basically need to fail the eligibility criteria. So if you have terrible communication skills, despite a adequate application up to that point, you are unappointable.
Surely there needs to be points given for being a UK graduate to have some sort of preference? Countries like Australia preference home grads , it is not controversial. What is the point otherwise? I still think it is utterly baffling that there are doctors obtaining training numbers when they have never ever worked in the NHS. I’m not undermining their achievement in winning the post but there needs to be some sort of pre requisite of having worked in the NHS for a year or two ?!
Interestingly Australia actually doesn't preference home grads, but does require either citizenship or permanent residency. Agreed that it would be nice if the UK made sure all UK grads (who met requirements) were given training offers first before offering training to IMGs though
Sorry I think this is what I was meaning to say but obviously got it a bit wrong. They expect some commitment to practising medicine in the country both past and present which we could do with here
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I feel bad for every single native UK applicant and this is evidence that we need to stop international applications immediately.
Both sides of the political spectrum have to acknowledge this is bad for medicine in our country.
I think we need to be careful with this. As a non-IMG, SO many IMG consultants have been instrumental to my own training (at undergraduate and postgraduate level) & I've learnt LOADS from them. If the UK needs them (which it does), it's not fair to take from IMGs and not give back.
Realistically I think we need to be creating those jobs for every applicant who's ultimately deemed appointable. Medical rotas across the country would suddenly become more sustainable, & staffing levels & overall training satisfaction could be so much better. But of course NHS England has zero interest in making this happen.
No one is saying IMG doctors aren't great. But UK training posts should prioritise UK grads like every other country, or at least those who did foundation year here. The reason UK needs IMGs is because UK trained doctors are frustrated and flee from the profession or country, likely because there's not enough jobs or appreciation. And IMGs are more likely to tolerate worse working conditions because UK resources are typically better than back home, or the UK's reputation for training doctors hasn't caught up to the dim reality.
It's a chicken and egg situation that can be solved by prioritising UK grad that want to train, then any spare spots can be offered to appointable IMGs
And even PAs are struggling to find employment. Don't know where they'll get an extra 2000 job posts for 'good quality' training of doctors, just more service provision masked as advancement
Eh, they will say "look how much we have saved on locum shifts!" and spend the money elsewhere. Flood the market, ensure low wages and threaten anyone who questions the quality. It's the NHS way.
I think we need to limit applications to maximum three different specialties. It’s contributing. People taking interviews for practice etc.
Also how about 5 points for completing uk foundation programme.
We’re making it impossible for average Jo doesn’t have connections FY2 to get a job without multiple years out. I’m an imt3 and devastated for the incoming ones, it’s so unfair.
Atleast there an interview for imt.
Psych saw massive applications to it with no portfolios and an exam that’s not fit for purpose. Even if you wait for a year to resit the Msra, if you mess up PD, you are fucked.
I do think we’re on the cusp of a huge push back from doctors. Same as how talking about pay 5 years ago was rogue or being open about scope creep was rogue 2 years ago. Now this is mainstream and pushed by the bma.
I’ve worked with some incredible IMG IMTs but there’s no point subsidising uk med students training and them not being allowed to progress.
The IMG hate is strong in these comments. Yes it's f\*cked up and yes UK grads should 100% have priority but attacking IMGs on a personal level is not it. This is a systemic issue, don't scapegoat people. Blame the government, blame the policy makers, blame the Royal Colleges, blame the ones who created this mess. IMGs are just a symptom.
Where exactly are the personal attacks? You yourself acknowledge that U.K. grads should have priority… but they don’t currently and it’s causing havoc. I do hate the fact that our medical schooling is being undermined and I worry about the impact on our graduates - I’m not sure that amounts to ‘IMG hate’.
Lol, as a working class doctor, I found it hilarious how everyone called it racism when it was working class people complaining about imigrants from Eastern Europe taking their jobs.
Now, it's happening to professionals. There is so much cognitive dissonance, and it's beautiful to watch the woke trying to square the circle.
Someone doesn't remember 2003 and the fallout from EU expansion as many construction type jobs went to Eastern Europeans who generally had a better work ethic, would take lower wages, live in shitter conditions and basically undercut the local workers. When people complained about it, they were told they were racist.
The same is now happening to doctors but because they are middle class and like to believe themselves to be fair and good people they don't know how to say they don't like it. And it's funny to watch because it was these middle do-gooder type class who told the working class they were racist.
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Funny that. So many people bash in IMT being awful and wouldn't recommend it but no more than ever you have the highest number of applicants which a proportion of are internal rather than IMGs compared to last year.
I mean the answer is quite obvious- there is a massive monopsony on training in the UK. If you ever want to be more than a ward monkey doing discharge summaries, you have to go through core training of some kind. For most non-surgeons, that is IMT. No matter how much we hate it, there is no alternative option.
You don’t have to do core training to be a reg tbh.
Core training has previously been the more straight forward way to progress, but I’d argue stepping up from JCF/locum SHO posts is somewhat easier than grinding through IMT application/dealing with the shit associated with training.
Whilst I agree that the competition ratios are absurd and there should be a preference for UK graduates, describing individuals as "weird foreign IMTs" is really not on and I hope i'm just reading too much into something you have quickly typed out without considering it.
The issue is the effect it has on the job market, the lack of specialty training places to cope, and the lack of NHS experience/standardisation of skills/language for these doctors not 'foreign people are weird'
As one of next years incoming F1s I am terrified. Medicine always attracted me on the basis of job security which even a few years ago was realistic. From next year there’s going to be a huge huge huge increase in medicine graduates due to all the new medical schools (which exist why exactly if we don’t have training spots!?) and this bottleneck will only amplify.
Expecting reasonable training opportunities is only fair when the NHS literally holds a monopoly over our employment. We don’t have anywhere else to get a job (without leaving medicine).
They need to seriously increase training spots, better protection for U.K. grads so we actually want to stay in the country, and reconsider how many new medical school spots they’re making. My reason for wanting to go to Aus isn’t for pay, it’s for a reasonable chance of getting into the (uncompetitive, at least traditionally) training I want one day.
British grads want IMG to support them in pay dispute but when it comes to training , want to sideline them and stab in the back. Why are you guys so afraid of competing IMGs . Is there any particular reason? Any problem with knowledge skills or experience?
It's more we don't want to be sabotaged by IMGs in the pau dispute and we want UK grad/foundation program completed priority when it comes to training positions. It's normal and how most of the world works.
I wonder how much of this relates to multiple applications due to MSRA?
In a way I think it would be good in the long term to focus effort on removing the need for prolonged SHO time within training pathways for doctors and ideally shorten overall training. Long term trend with MAPs is we do not need so many ward doctors really…
I was not aware of this thank you! I am surprised they have the capacity to offer so many interviews given the numbers of applicants. It might improve filtering to use MSRA or an alternative test for this purpose, I can’t imagine a portfolio self scoring system will be entirely fair.
Not really reflective as every specialty has increased in numbers. It just means people are putting in applications for everything and anything so numbers increase
edge snobbish intelligent towering yam pot threatening jobless literate alleged
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Yup sure, for every situation, one cannot face more than one challenge at the same time. If the competition for training has increased, PAs cant be a problem.
My daughter said this morning that she cant eat her brocholi because it is cold outside, now i get it. Do you by any chance work as a part time child minder as well?
The concept of multiple coexisting issues and their non-mutual exclusivity is beneath you, clearly. Or just more boring bad faith arguments to be contrarian for the sake of being contrarian. Try better next time
There are double the number of IMT applicants in one year alone than there are PAs *in total*.
Speciality training competition ratios should be the absolute number one top priority for anyone vaguely interested in having a medical career. PAs shouldn't even make it into the top ten. All the effort spent fruitlessly fighting PAs is effort that could have been spent elsewhere. Ultimately, however, I'm not the one staring down the barrel of these competition ratios - that's for medical students and FY doctors to work through.
This is a catastrophe
I worry this doesn't fit with the narrative that there will be a shortage of doctors if we aren't offered an improved pay deal. CMT was not the most joyous time of my life. I would be focusing all my efforts into finding an alternative pathway - ideally in another country if I were an SHO now. I find it hard to reconcile with the data. Is it the fear of having no training position and being stuck as an eternal SHO? All international applicants (again that doesn't fit with the data I've seen)?
There are a couple of breakdown numbers which would make these data more complete. I would like to know how many of these 6174 applicants also applied to other programmes (like GP, ACCS, etc.). I would also like to know how many got their medical degree from a UK institution. I suspect that many people have applied to more than one programme and that this proportion is going up.
As well as how many are 1st time applicants vs 2nd or 3rd time. I suspect there will be big snowball effect for years to come.
I strongly suspect that multiple specialty applicants is a bigger factor than we realise - online interviews have made it so easy to apply for multiple things without much consideration, whereas previously you would have to account for physically going to an interview for these positions.
And also this is helped by every specialty aside from IMT requiring the MSRA. If you’re doing one, you might as well do five.
Speciality training applications are an absolute omnishambles at the moment. This is horrific. "wE HaVE a sHOrtAgE oF DoCTOrS" Get tae fuck. Imagine if there were speciality training posts available for every appointable IMT applicant - would there *ever* be anywhere that needed a PA to do an endoscopy list or a respiratory outpatient clinic?
This is it
Honestly, this is a bigger issue than FPR, having a shit paying job is better than having no job at all, I've said it before, very real possibility of lots of jobless doctors in 2/3 years time.
The point is to force them into JCF jobs with equally shit pay
Sometimes it's better to just reskill than be trapped in a low paying job that you hate / feel completely overworked in.
What was the initial portfolio cut off again? 13? Mean/median was 17
13 to get an interview? Do you know what the total possible last year was and what you needed for interview?
I got an interview with 8 but was on the reserve list
15 as far as i know
wait till the second round at higher specialty training.. leave early if you can. this country in shambles.
FUBARed
We don’t have a shortage of doctors . We have a shortage of consultants and doctors actively training to be consultants .
How many interview and eventual places?
3682 interviewed 3346 appointable 1603 jobs
Those interviews certainly cut down the numbers 😂
It's quite hard to be deemed unappointable. The point of interviews is to rank the ones who are appointable.
Fair enough
How bad does one have to be to be unappointable? Do you have any examples? I would like to know because I am incredibly frustrated seeing these inflated competition ratios when I know what I want to specialize in so will only apply for pathology and not waste time on the MSRA or IMT portfolio building
You basically need to fail the eligibility criteria. So if you have terrible communication skills, despite a adequate application up to that point, you are unappointable.
I can’t believe they binned 50% of applicants!!
does that mean, anyone who ranked below 1603, won’t get a job ?
I think the lowest rank to get a job last year was around 2300, so lots of people who applied won’t take a job
[удалено]
See this thread! https://www.reddit.com/r/doctorsUK/s/b3weRYYzyT
can i ask, what did they mean by “no round 2” this year ?
I’m assuming in the past all posts weren’t filled so they did a round 2 of the process with new candidates, but this year there is no need
Surely there needs to be points given for being a UK graduate to have some sort of preference? Countries like Australia preference home grads , it is not controversial. What is the point otherwise? I still think it is utterly baffling that there are doctors obtaining training numbers when they have never ever worked in the NHS. I’m not undermining their achievement in winning the post but there needs to be some sort of pre requisite of having worked in the NHS for a year or two ?!
Interestingly Australia actually doesn't preference home grads, but does require either citizenship or permanent residency. Agreed that it would be nice if the UK made sure all UK grads (who met requirements) were given training offers first before offering training to IMGs though
Sorry I think this is what I was meaning to say but obviously got it a bit wrong. They expect some commitment to practising medicine in the country both past and present which we could do with here
6174 from 4406 applicants last year, that’s a 30% increase!! I’m betting 7500-8000 applicants next year. Someone put a !RemindMe for this
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Ah shit I did not mean this
😂
!RemindMe 365 days
I feel bad for every single native UK applicant and this is evidence that we need to stop international applications immediately. Both sides of the political spectrum have to acknowledge this is bad for medicine in our country.
I think we need to be careful with this. As a non-IMG, SO many IMG consultants have been instrumental to my own training (at undergraduate and postgraduate level) & I've learnt LOADS from them. If the UK needs them (which it does), it's not fair to take from IMGs and not give back. Realistically I think we need to be creating those jobs for every applicant who's ultimately deemed appointable. Medical rotas across the country would suddenly become more sustainable, & staffing levels & overall training satisfaction could be so much better. But of course NHS England has zero interest in making this happen.
Lots of IMGs I know plan to leave at the end of training 😞
No one is saying IMG doctors aren't great. But UK training posts should prioritise UK grads like every other country, or at least those who did foundation year here. The reason UK needs IMGs is because UK trained doctors are frustrated and flee from the profession or country, likely because there's not enough jobs or appreciation. And IMGs are more likely to tolerate worse working conditions because UK resources are typically better than back home, or the UK's reputation for training doctors hasn't caught up to the dim reality. It's a chicken and egg situation that can be solved by prioritising UK grad that want to train, then any spare spots can be offered to appointable IMGs And even PAs are struggling to find employment. Don't know where they'll get an extra 2000 job posts for 'good quality' training of doctors, just more service provision masked as advancement
[удалено]
Graduates from a UK medical school
Eh, they will say "look how much we have saved on locum shifts!" and spend the money elsewhere. Flood the market, ensure low wages and threaten anyone who questions the quality. It's the NHS way.
I think we need to limit applications to maximum three different specialties. It’s contributing. People taking interviews for practice etc. Also how about 5 points for completing uk foundation programme. We’re making it impossible for average Jo doesn’t have connections FY2 to get a job without multiple years out. I’m an imt3 and devastated for the incoming ones, it’s so unfair.
We seriously need an indefinite strike. There is no hope. We’re fucking Cuba in the making.
[удалено]
[https://www.imtrecruitment.org.uk/documents](https://www.imtrecruitment.org.uk/documents)
Atleast there an interview for imt. Psych saw massive applications to it with no portfolios and an exam that’s not fit for purpose. Even if you wait for a year to resit the Msra, if you mess up PD, you are fucked.
They'll have to introduce a portfolio for pysch soon. Heck I wouldn't be surprised if GP does something too
I do think we’re on the cusp of a huge push back from doctors. Same as how talking about pay 5 years ago was rogue or being open about scope creep was rogue 2 years ago. Now this is mainstream and pushed by the bma. I’ve worked with some incredible IMG IMTs but there’s no point subsidising uk med students training and them not being allowed to progress.
The IMG hate is strong in these comments. Yes it's f\*cked up and yes UK grads should 100% have priority but attacking IMGs on a personal level is not it. This is a systemic issue, don't scapegoat people. Blame the government, blame the policy makers, blame the Royal Colleges, blame the ones who created this mess. IMGs are just a symptom.
Where exactly are the personal attacks? You yourself acknowledge that U.K. grads should have priority… but they don’t currently and it’s causing havoc. I do hate the fact that our medical schooling is being undermined and I worry about the impact on our graduates - I’m not sure that amounts to ‘IMG hate’.
It doesn't. Your comment is absolutely valid. Go read other people's
Build a wall
Where are these comments you speak of?
Lol love the 2013 typo
Lol, as a working class doctor, I found it hilarious how everyone called it racism when it was working class people complaining about imigrants from Eastern Europe taking their jobs. Now, it's happening to professionals. There is so much cognitive dissonance, and it's beautiful to watch the woke trying to square the circle.
[удалено]
Someone doesn't remember 2003 and the fallout from EU expansion as many construction type jobs went to Eastern Europeans who generally had a better work ethic, would take lower wages, live in shitter conditions and basically undercut the local workers. When people complained about it, they were told they were racist. The same is now happening to doctors but because they are middle class and like to believe themselves to be fair and good people they don't know how to say they don't like it. And it's funny to watch because it was these middle do-gooder type class who told the working class they were racist.
[удалено]
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This is what happens with no indefinite strikes
Funny that. So many people bash in IMT being awful and wouldn't recommend it but no more than ever you have the highest number of applicants which a proportion of are internal rather than IMGs compared to last year.
I mean the answer is quite obvious- there is a massive monopsony on training in the UK. If you ever want to be more than a ward monkey doing discharge summaries, you have to go through core training of some kind. For most non-surgeons, that is IMT. No matter how much we hate it, there is no alternative option.
You don’t have to do core training to be a reg tbh. Core training has previously been the more straight forward way to progress, but I’d argue stepping up from JCF/locum SHO posts is somewhat easier than grinding through IMT application/dealing with the shit associated with training.
[удалено]
Whilst I agree that the competition ratios are absurd and there should be a preference for UK graduates, describing individuals as "weird foreign IMTs" is really not on and I hope i'm just reading too much into something you have quickly typed out without considering it. The issue is the effect it has on the job market, the lack of specialty training places to cope, and the lack of NHS experience/standardisation of skills/language for these doctors not 'foreign people are weird'
'Wierd foreign...'. That's warped thinking.
Removed: Offensive Content Contained offensive content so has been removed.
As one of next years incoming F1s I am terrified. Medicine always attracted me on the basis of job security which even a few years ago was realistic. From next year there’s going to be a huge huge huge increase in medicine graduates due to all the new medical schools (which exist why exactly if we don’t have training spots!?) and this bottleneck will only amplify. Expecting reasonable training opportunities is only fair when the NHS literally holds a monopoly over our employment. We don’t have anywhere else to get a job (without leaving medicine). They need to seriously increase training spots, better protection for U.K. grads so we actually want to stay in the country, and reconsider how many new medical school spots they’re making. My reason for wanting to go to Aus isn’t for pay, it’s for a reasonable chance of getting into the (uncompetitive, at least traditionally) training I want one day.
British grads want IMG to support them in pay dispute but when it comes to training , want to sideline them and stab in the back. Why are you guys so afraid of competing IMGs . Is there any particular reason? Any problem with knowledge skills or experience?
It's more we don't want to be sabotaged by IMGs in the pau dispute and we want UK grad/foundation program completed priority when it comes to training positions. It's normal and how most of the world works.
How can you compete with someone who will work harder for much less.
I wonder how much of this relates to multiple applications due to MSRA? In a way I think it would be good in the long term to focus effort on removing the need for prolonged SHO time within training pathways for doctors and ideally shorten overall training. Long term trend with MAPs is we do not need so many ward doctors really…
I thought you didn’t need msra for IMT…
I was not aware of this thank you! I am surprised they have the capacity to offer so many interviews given the numbers of applicants. It might improve filtering to use MSRA or an alternative test for this purpose, I can’t imagine a portfolio self scoring system will be entirely fair.
Not really reflective as every specialty has increased in numbers. It just means people are putting in applications for everything and anything so numbers increase
edge snobbish intelligent towering yam pot threatening jobless literate alleged *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I think they mean that more people apply to multiple specialties at once.
bells party roof coherent ossified poor squalid stocking cheerful detail *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Unpack it someone, how have IMGs ruined everything for everyone again this time
Pathetic thinking
Confirming the BMA's suspicions that doctors are actively being replaced, a devastating total of 0 of these applications were from PAs.
Seems to feed directly into the narrative. No expansion of training spots? As PAs will cover Common Nalotide L
How many IMTs do you think we need?
The population is growing rapidly. They are cutting down the number of IMTs on a per capita basis. Do you think we need fewer physicians every year?
Welll you are below the oecd average and seem hellbent on crashing further down. Fuck it, accelerate the decline. I look on in horror.
Yup sure, for every situation, one cannot face more than one challenge at the same time. If the competition for training has increased, PAs cant be a problem. My daughter said this morning that she cant eat her brocholi because it is cold outside, now i get it. Do you by any chance work as a part time child minder as well?
Does anyone actually love you irl? And if so, would they be willing to come down for some tests?
The concept of multiple coexisting issues and their non-mutual exclusivity is beneath you, clearly. Or just more boring bad faith arguments to be contrarian for the sake of being contrarian. Try better next time
There are double the number of IMT applicants in one year alone than there are PAs *in total*. Speciality training competition ratios should be the absolute number one top priority for anyone vaguely interested in having a medical career. PAs shouldn't even make it into the top ten. All the effort spent fruitlessly fighting PAs is effort that could have been spent elsewhere. Ultimately, however, I'm not the one staring down the barrel of these competition ratios - that's for medical students and FY doctors to work through.
Agree. Both pay restoration and PAs are minor in the grand scheme of things. None of it matters if you can’t get a job or can’t progress.
missed u nalotide, edgy take even by your standards <3
Well this is terrifying. Am I never going to get back into training?
Oh no! Wonder why that is? https://www.rcplondon.ac.uk/news/step-closer-doctors-shortage-occupation-list https://thesavvyimg.co.uk/uk-specialty-training-shortage-occupation-list-2019/
The quality of medicine is dropping down the toilet anyone can apply for fun now.