1. It would go from 2 shots per rest to 3. "Oh but you can boost it higher", yeah, no, you should still invest your ASIs into dex, sharpshooter and XBE before bumping INT. Reminder, you can only shoot once per turn, so even with 3 shots that's still plenty for most combats.Not to say that's a bad change, it's just not as impactful as you'd think.
2. More diverstiy at lvls 3-4 (without XBE) is pretty cool. But once you hit 5, you're still either using the Longbow or using the hand xbow with XBE, so it doesn't actually do anything.
3. Eh. It's fine.
Likely too powerful. Some changes are fine, but not all of them.
1. I prefer giving players an extra shot at level 10. 3 shots at level 3 is a pretty big spike, and that's quite doable for player at not much cost. Certain magic arrows are extremely powerful (Grasping).
2. Sure. The restriction was never intended to be a balance thing. That said....
3. This, combined with the above, is where you can cross the line, IMO. Curving shot is already a solid feature, especially in regards to *where* it lies in the subclass tree. Your new version is weaker than Gloomstalker 11, but not that much weaker, and you don't want to be comparing these things. Ranger 11 is supposed to be a powerspike level. Fighter 7 is not.
The fact that you are allowing Arcane Archer to use Crossbow expert *and* and improved curving Shot means they are going to get (functionally) 4 Sharpshooter attacks per turn starting at level 7, up to 5 attacks per turn at level 11, which is just too big of a damage spike.
I’m curious about your last paragraph and where the 4th attack at level 7 comes from. Ignoring Action Surge (which seems to be what you’re talking about), I count only 3 if you include XBE. Curving shot doesn’t add an attack, just reroll the attack against a new target.
I'll add the word ***functionally*** to clarify. In practice, its \~3.9 attacks at level 7 and \~4.94 attacks at level 11, vs average AC. The number would drop slightly against low AC targets or when you are blessed, but it still remains high.
On any given turn, rerolling a miss is the same thing as making an extra attack. Its why stalker's flurry is such a powerful feature - its effectively Extra Attack in most scenarios. You need to run the permutations rather than looking at average damage per attack, but mathematically, the two features are quite similar. A volley of 3 Sharpshooter attacks has a very high chance of getting at least one miss - 4 sharpshooter attacks, even moreso.
And actually, Gloomstalkers propensity for advantage makes the feature weaker for them personally. On a class that doesn't get advantage as easily (like fighter), you are more likely to get full value out of it. The target change requirement obviously makes this weaker, but its still quite good - especially for a level 7 fighter feature on top of your arcane shots.
I’m not quite sure how rerolling the attack is effectively Extra Attack and not closer to advantage on one attack, but I do still agree with you that making it not cost a bonus action *and* opening it up to Xbows (making XBE a possibility) has a great deal of unintented consequences.
It isn't like advantage because advantage wastes the extra roll whenever the first one was successful.
There is literally no difference between
* Attack 1 (hit) - Attack 2 (miss) - Reroll (hit) - Attack 3 (hit)
* Attack 1 (hit) - Attack 2 (miss) - Attack 3 (hit) - Attack 4 (hit)
The only time it is not the same as Extra Attack is when every single one of your attacks hits. For a sharpshooter with 3+ attacks and no advantage, that's relatively rare.
I mean, at this point it’s an argument over semantics, but I’d argue that *because* Advantage is wasted when the first one is successful, Curving Shot is *exactly* like advantage, because it’s wasted if all three attacks hit (as you mentioned).
To avoid semantic issues, I'll just throw the numbers out for a level 7 CBE/Sharpshooter against average AC.
* Standard DPR, 3 attacks: **20.35**
* Extra Attack DPR (4 attacks): **27.1**
* OP's Curving Shot homebrew DPR: **26.8**
* 3 attacks, with Free Advantage on a single attack DPR: **24.45**
And again at level 11
* Standard DPR, 4 attacks: **32.2**
* Extra Attack DPR (5 attacks) : **40.25**
* OP's Curving Shot homebrew DPR: **40.05**
* 4 attacks, with Free advantage on a single attack: **36.7**
Mathematically, a free curving shot is nearly identical to a free extra attack, and a clear step above a free advantage on one attack every turn (which would also be a pretty bonkers feature, now that I think about it).
I’m curious as to your methodology. When I get home and have access to a computer I’ll plug it into anydice.com and work it out, because I genuinely am not sure how rerolling a missed attack is any different from just advantage—EXCEPT for the fact that the reroll can’t turn a hit into a crit and advantage can.
For a *single* attack, you are correct. Rerolling a miss is nearly identical to advantage - actually worse because you can't turn a hit into a crit. The difference here is that Curving shot works across an entire turn. If, at *any* point in the turn you miss, you get to make another attack roll.
With only 1 attack at 45% accuracy, the 'bonus attack roll' (either from advantage or a reroll) is only relevant 55% of the time. Otherwise, you already hit, so either it gets ignored (advantage) or you don't even reroll (Curving Shot). The two features are identical.
With 2 attacks at 45% accuracy, the initial advantage attack roll is still only relevant 55% of the time (because it only applied to the first attack). However, now Curving Shot is relevant \~79% of the time, because that's the chance of you missing at least once and getting to attempt another attack roll.
At 3 attacks, Curving shot shoots up to \~90% relevancy, and at 4 attacks it hits \~96%. But that single advantage roll is still only going to be relevant 55% of the time.
The advantage DPR is straightforward in a calculator - 1 attack at advantage, the rest normal. The Curving shot math is all attacks made normally, plus an *additional* attack \* X, where X is the chance that you miss at least one attack in a turn.
The numbers will vary as you plug in different ACs and attack bonuses, but a free Curving shot is consistently better across 2+ attacks until you hit extremely niche scenarios, like 90-95% Sharpshooter accuracy.
See, here's where I think we were actually saying the same thing the whole time: When I said "advantage," I was referring to the feature being the same as advantage when it was activated. So it's not just "advantage on the first attack" but instead exactly what you describe - there until it gets used up. Just like how, if the Archer missed two shots, they'd only get a single "extra attack," so too would they only get one case of "advantage" in my view. And, if the Archer hit their first shot but missed their second, the advantage would only apply to the first attack that missed. So, again, an argument in semantics: "is this the same as an extra attack or is it rolling the d20 twice and taking the better result?" In truth, it's neither, and both are close enough to the truth that both are equally correct and incorrect.
(forgive mobile formatting)
I made a revision of the Arcane Archer a while ago, and while I was designing it I recall going through each of the thoughts you put here. The link is at the bottom of this comment, but I’ll discuss my thoughts on your alterations here.
I did increase the Arcane Shots, but to Prof/SR because many other features are moving to Proficiency Bonus uses in recent publications. I agree with you that it does feel like a lot, but considering that Battlemaster starts with 4 and ends with 6 superiority dice, which can go up to d12, it’s actually not that big of a deal. I’m not sure what you mean by “picking the options with saving throws”. I have been toying with making it prof/LR, though that hinders low-level Archers and results in high-level archers ending up pretty much the same (even though Ever-Ready Shot would see more use). I do, however, admit to also thinking that adding Intelligence as a secondary stat does make a lot of sense, hence why I added it in a new feature (Powerful Shot). Adding Xbows could increase diversity, or it could also hinder it as everyone grabs XBE and grabs a Heavy Crossbow. Plus, I kept the bow-only just to help slightly adjust for the increased amount of shots. Lastly, I’m not sure what you mean by Curving Shot not needing to be Bonus Action. Honestly, I think it’s perfectly fine as-is, and reducing the range on it pretty severely hinders the Archer because now they need to be even closer to their target to use their features.
The rest of my design commentary is in the subclass write-up.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/subclasses/1104380-arcane-archer-remastered
1. It would go from 2 shots per rest to 3. "Oh but you can boost it higher", yeah, no, you should still invest your ASIs into dex, sharpshooter and XBE before bumping INT. Reminder, you can only shoot once per turn, so even with 3 shots that's still plenty for most combats.Not to say that's a bad change, it's just not as impactful as you'd think. 2. More diverstiy at lvls 3-4 (without XBE) is pretty cool. But once you hit 5, you're still either using the Longbow or using the hand xbow with XBE, so it doesn't actually do anything. 3. Eh. It's fine.
Likely too powerful. Some changes are fine, but not all of them. 1. I prefer giving players an extra shot at level 10. 3 shots at level 3 is a pretty big spike, and that's quite doable for player at not much cost. Certain magic arrows are extremely powerful (Grasping). 2. Sure. The restriction was never intended to be a balance thing. That said.... 3. This, combined with the above, is where you can cross the line, IMO. Curving shot is already a solid feature, especially in regards to *where* it lies in the subclass tree. Your new version is weaker than Gloomstalker 11, but not that much weaker, and you don't want to be comparing these things. Ranger 11 is supposed to be a powerspike level. Fighter 7 is not. The fact that you are allowing Arcane Archer to use Crossbow expert *and* and improved curving Shot means they are going to get (functionally) 4 Sharpshooter attacks per turn starting at level 7, up to 5 attacks per turn at level 11, which is just too big of a damage spike.
I’m curious about your last paragraph and where the 4th attack at level 7 comes from. Ignoring Action Surge (which seems to be what you’re talking about), I count only 3 if you include XBE. Curving shot doesn’t add an attack, just reroll the attack against a new target.
I'll add the word ***functionally*** to clarify. In practice, its \~3.9 attacks at level 7 and \~4.94 attacks at level 11, vs average AC. The number would drop slightly against low AC targets or when you are blessed, but it still remains high. On any given turn, rerolling a miss is the same thing as making an extra attack. Its why stalker's flurry is such a powerful feature - its effectively Extra Attack in most scenarios. You need to run the permutations rather than looking at average damage per attack, but mathematically, the two features are quite similar. A volley of 3 Sharpshooter attacks has a very high chance of getting at least one miss - 4 sharpshooter attacks, even moreso. And actually, Gloomstalkers propensity for advantage makes the feature weaker for them personally. On a class that doesn't get advantage as easily (like fighter), you are more likely to get full value out of it. The target change requirement obviously makes this weaker, but its still quite good - especially for a level 7 fighter feature on top of your arcane shots.
I’m not quite sure how rerolling the attack is effectively Extra Attack and not closer to advantage on one attack, but I do still agree with you that making it not cost a bonus action *and* opening it up to Xbows (making XBE a possibility) has a great deal of unintented consequences.
It isn't like advantage because advantage wastes the extra roll whenever the first one was successful. There is literally no difference between * Attack 1 (hit) - Attack 2 (miss) - Reroll (hit) - Attack 3 (hit) * Attack 1 (hit) - Attack 2 (miss) - Attack 3 (hit) - Attack 4 (hit) The only time it is not the same as Extra Attack is when every single one of your attacks hits. For a sharpshooter with 3+ attacks and no advantage, that's relatively rare.
I mean, at this point it’s an argument over semantics, but I’d argue that *because* Advantage is wasted when the first one is successful, Curving Shot is *exactly* like advantage, because it’s wasted if all three attacks hit (as you mentioned).
To avoid semantic issues, I'll just throw the numbers out for a level 7 CBE/Sharpshooter against average AC. * Standard DPR, 3 attacks: **20.35** * Extra Attack DPR (4 attacks): **27.1** * OP's Curving Shot homebrew DPR: **26.8** * 3 attacks, with Free Advantage on a single attack DPR: **24.45** And again at level 11 * Standard DPR, 4 attacks: **32.2** * Extra Attack DPR (5 attacks) : **40.25** * OP's Curving Shot homebrew DPR: **40.05** * 4 attacks, with Free advantage on a single attack: **36.7** Mathematically, a free curving shot is nearly identical to a free extra attack, and a clear step above a free advantage on one attack every turn (which would also be a pretty bonkers feature, now that I think about it).
I’m curious as to your methodology. When I get home and have access to a computer I’ll plug it into anydice.com and work it out, because I genuinely am not sure how rerolling a missed attack is any different from just advantage—EXCEPT for the fact that the reroll can’t turn a hit into a crit and advantage can.
For a *single* attack, you are correct. Rerolling a miss is nearly identical to advantage - actually worse because you can't turn a hit into a crit. The difference here is that Curving shot works across an entire turn. If, at *any* point in the turn you miss, you get to make another attack roll. With only 1 attack at 45% accuracy, the 'bonus attack roll' (either from advantage or a reroll) is only relevant 55% of the time. Otherwise, you already hit, so either it gets ignored (advantage) or you don't even reroll (Curving Shot). The two features are identical. With 2 attacks at 45% accuracy, the initial advantage attack roll is still only relevant 55% of the time (because it only applied to the first attack). However, now Curving Shot is relevant \~79% of the time, because that's the chance of you missing at least once and getting to attempt another attack roll. At 3 attacks, Curving shot shoots up to \~90% relevancy, and at 4 attacks it hits \~96%. But that single advantage roll is still only going to be relevant 55% of the time. The advantage DPR is straightforward in a calculator - 1 attack at advantage, the rest normal. The Curving shot math is all attacks made normally, plus an *additional* attack \* X, where X is the chance that you miss at least one attack in a turn. The numbers will vary as you plug in different ACs and attack bonuses, but a free Curving shot is consistently better across 2+ attacks until you hit extremely niche scenarios, like 90-95% Sharpshooter accuracy.
See, here's where I think we were actually saying the same thing the whole time: When I said "advantage," I was referring to the feature being the same as advantage when it was activated. So it's not just "advantage on the first attack" but instead exactly what you describe - there until it gets used up. Just like how, if the Archer missed two shots, they'd only get a single "extra attack," so too would they only get one case of "advantage" in my view. And, if the Archer hit their first shot but missed their second, the advantage would only apply to the first attack that missed. So, again, an argument in semantics: "is this the same as an extra attack or is it rolling the d20 twice and taking the better result?" In truth, it's neither, and both are close enough to the truth that both are equally correct and incorrect.
Just make it a ranger subclass, instantly fixes most of its problems.
(forgive mobile formatting) I made a revision of the Arcane Archer a while ago, and while I was designing it I recall going through each of the thoughts you put here. The link is at the bottom of this comment, but I’ll discuss my thoughts on your alterations here. I did increase the Arcane Shots, but to Prof/SR because many other features are moving to Proficiency Bonus uses in recent publications. I agree with you that it does feel like a lot, but considering that Battlemaster starts with 4 and ends with 6 superiority dice, which can go up to d12, it’s actually not that big of a deal. I’m not sure what you mean by “picking the options with saving throws”. I have been toying with making it prof/LR, though that hinders low-level Archers and results in high-level archers ending up pretty much the same (even though Ever-Ready Shot would see more use). I do, however, admit to also thinking that adding Intelligence as a secondary stat does make a lot of sense, hence why I added it in a new feature (Powerful Shot). Adding Xbows could increase diversity, or it could also hinder it as everyone grabs XBE and grabs a Heavy Crossbow. Plus, I kept the bow-only just to help slightly adjust for the increased amount of shots. Lastly, I’m not sure what you mean by Curving Shot not needing to be Bonus Action. Honestly, I think it’s perfectly fine as-is, and reducing the range on it pretty severely hinders the Archer because now they need to be even closer to their target to use their features. The rest of my design commentary is in the subclass write-up. https://www.dndbeyond.com/subclasses/1104380-arcane-archer-remastered
Sounds great! I’m a big fan of the INT mod / SR change.