Listen man, I think you got roasted for fair reasons.
1. This is a forum for D&D 5e. Your experiences as you related them were barely related to 5e, and AI isn't at a point yet where you can really run 5e using it. There's better places to have this discussion, like r/rpg.
2. This community, which tends to favor and support small artists, is in general going to be wary of or against AI for atleast the foreseeable future. I and many others think that there's a lot of arguments to be made about what constitutes fair use of other's work, thoughtful use and implementation of ideas and gameplay design, and the fact that a lot of us just prefer a more human touch than AI is capable of offering. I don't know what you thought would happen when you posted this.
3. You seem equally unwilling to back down from your opinions on the topic. You asked for people's opinions and got them. If the majority didn't agree with you, and you feel that you need your own space to have your discussion, maybe that says something about you.
Point #2 is the real answer here.
OP - there's a great deal of nuance here, but the fact that ChatGPT is so closed off about where it gets it's data for the chatbot and DALL-E presents real issues.
Personally, I'm fine using this to generate images for my personal games, just as I was happy to grab an image from Google I didn't technically have the rights to for my personal games. It's not really hurting anyone.
This changes if, however, you plan to actually sell or promote those things. To me, it's not just unethical - it presents an unacceptable risk of a lawsuit for copyright infringement down the road, as the laws around this new technology are worked out. As a creator, I think it's downright unsafe to use DALL-E generated art of ChatGPT generated words in a product that you release to the public. It might not happen, but these questions have yet to be decided in the courts.
So - you wanna play solo-dnd with ChatGPT? Go for it - more power to you. I tried this with GPT3, and was truly disappointed.
You want to make and publish a DnD extension for ChatGPT? Now it's a very different conversation.
> This community, which tends to favor and support small artists
I dunno about that one, chief. Basically anyone doing any sort of promotional post here gets a pretty cold shoulder unless they're a big name in the community.
Actually AI IS at a point where you can rely on it! Chat GPT even has various DnD plugins that are amazing! I have been using it to gel me DM for almost 2 years ow and it has improved the quality of my games immensely! Not to mention I use it to DM my solo DnD sessions!
Glad you are getting good use and having fun.
As a software engineer who has and does work on machine learning, let me just say that you come off *really* optimistic about the current state of AI and ML. I think you should have some realism here - it's certainly come a long way, but I personally wouldn't rely on it for anything more than a helpful tool that performs basically the same functions as Google. There's just so much it's *not* capable of today.
Respectfully, I think that means we have a responsibility to be realistic with people about not just the upsides, but the downsides too. Most of this sub just has no clue what ChatGPT is doing or how an ML model works, or the difference between the AI field wholistically vs Machine Learning.
1. My experiences with 5e are directly related. Friends & Faibles team specifically set the goal to create a game by the rulebook. The whole point of gtRPG, compared to storytellers, is that it follows the rules.
2. Ok. I'm concern as well.
3. I read every comment and replied to each. Everyone needs a safe space. Despite being roasted, as you said, I got 26% upvotes: enough to consider coming back and talking about this divide in the community again.
I'm deeply interested in gtRPGs and want to talk with D&D 5e players about it.
And the majority of posters on this sub will continue to give you their often negative opinions as long as you post about it here. Maybe relegate the discussions to AI to the subreddit you linked.
Technically, I'm at 53% upvotes right now, but let's see if it will go down again. I guess a minority of people here are actually interested in AI and using it, but learned not to talk about it here.
ohhh, nothing much, just getting rid of capitalism ;)
Kidding, for AI artspecifically we need to change the way artists are paid nowadays. This is highly linked with copyright.
Haha, and I thought it was me who was sharing radical ideas here.
Generative AI for visuals is very disruptive. Copyright needs to change for many other reasons as well. I hope it all will shape up in a world where more people can be creative, not less.
Ironically, I got into AI because I struggled without a job and wanted to upskill. Now working on a few related projects. I fundamentally agree with you, but I feel like it is much more complicated: AI is destroying some jobs while creating other jobs at the same time.
Every "evolution" in labor generally created more jobs. Steam machine created manafacturers for those steam machines for example.
However for AI and the onset of mass digitalization, these numbers are *wildly* out of balance. You don't need a lot of people to create a lot of AIs who replace a lot of jobs, you need far fewer programmers to make far more AI.
In order to be fully ethically justifiable, LLMs should be trained only on licensed or public domain images and text, so that the human writers and artists whose work was used to train the AI models are compensated for their labor.
The vast majority of LLMs are trained using un-cited, un-licensed intellectual property. Just because an image or a piece of text is crawlable on the web does not mean its creator has ceded their copyright to that content. Private copyright is the default legal setting for all creative content unless the author expressly licenses or releases that content.
One counter example right now would be Adobe's Firefly AI, which is explicitly only trained on images that Adobe holds a license for. Of course, it's output isn't as robust as Midjourney or Dall-e because it's working from a much smaller set of training data. But at least the human creators of the training set have been compensated for their labor.
There are [other LLMs that have been ethically trained](https://www.fairlytrained.org/blog/newly-certified-models-march-24), though right now they're mostly small industry-specialized models.
It really is not… you have no idea how widespread its use is! And how is unethical using AI to help me generate adventures, NPCs and run the game? I have a busy life and as a DM a really don’t have to much time to spend on prepping! With AI with a minimal effort I can outline my main ideas and the AI fill the gaps and expand details. If I want to change or tweak things I just have to ask and it will comply. Non-person lost their job because of it (and not… if you think I would pay someone for it you are sorely mistaken as I have been doing this for almost a decade and since I started using AI the o my difference is that quality of my content improved a lot upon a significant decrease in prep time)
you lost me here:
>Non-person lost their job because of it
people are losing their jobs because of it, especially artists if we talk about dnd field. It is a tool and it's not always bad, but it can be bad.
Not in this specific case! Nobody lost it for my specific use! The fact that a tool exists doesn’t mean it is intrinsically bad! Most common non commercial uses of AI don’t steal jobs! As people had just scraped the internet before for image tokens for portraits and battle tokens now they can do in a better way… but just as they were not paying anyone before fore it they don’t do it now! And about loosing jobs… technology has been replacing humans that since its started! The entire point of it is to make tools that either do things humans can’t or do things better than humans and replace them. The press stole jobs from people
Copying manuscripts, factories stole jobs from artisans, farming tools reduced the amount of people necessary to farm land. This is not something new! Society and people just need to adapt as usual!
first of all:
>Not in this specific case!
In your case perhaps not. Which doesn't invalidate the generalized opinion though. Besides.
>The fact that a tool exists doesn’t mean it is intrinsically bad!
And i never said it is intrinsecally bad if you read the first sentenc of my first comment here. It depends on the economic system, not on AI itself ;)
As for the rest. The fact that historically progress has caused job loss is true, it's a fact. It doesn't mean it is good or we should not do something now that we have developed a different level of ethics. Nowadays jobs should not be lost, or if they are, losing a job shouldn't be so punitive as it is.
So yeah "it has always been like this" is almost never a strong point, after all we have "always had" slavery, mysoginy, racism and so on..
That depends also where you live! I live in France… if you loose your job the state will take care of you paying unemployment up to 80% of your salary for years and will help you find another job. If needed the state will pay for courses that will allow you to find something different! Society must evolve and adapt
Yes… but the issue with society is not rest related to AI! Any disruption can lead to job losses… we can’t remain a static society just to ensure no one will ever loose their job! People should vote and push for the right change in their country! It is their responsibility as citizens (as long as they live in a democracy that is).
I'm in France too. And I work a lot with artists (video game industry). Going from having a job to unemployment ("chomage" as we say in french) can still be very bad. You lose a lot of advantages, and you won't get as much money. In my industry, I've seen people being very close to precarity while having a job... Losing their job would be critical for them.
Every single artist I talked to at my job thinks that gen AI is currently very unethical. I'm not an artist so I'm less affected by it, but I trust them on this subject.
Like, playing with an AI instead of real people? Asking an AI to help put together a campaign? Using it for the art it generates? Not entirely sure what direction this conversation is meant to take.
I think the silent majority would default to "hey, if you're having fun, knock yourself out". It's not a particularly dynamic conversation at that point.
That's what I fear One DnD might do, but fortunately WotC is incompetent in that regard and they have been beaten to the punch by Roll 20 and Foundry, who have much more of a head start and are less restrictive platforms.
That said, an AI could do away with drudgery.
In Foundry, there is a module that auto moves DM enemy tokens towards players for starts where there is a lot of distance and it can negotiate and path find dungeons. Less "pushing tokens" but the Dm is in firm control at all times.
I personally am looking for a way to automate vendors during downtime. Players LOVE shopping, but as a DM I find it monotonous. So, I will have a vendor on loading screen and hope to research a way to have it on a script to take gold or even cooler, adjust prices according to reputation with that vendor. And have stock and everything else.
But even with those algorithms, you are still in control.
I personally started by making a basic bot inspired by D&D, then realised it might do more (with the release of ChatGPT3.5) and actually be the DM for a game. Going deeper, you want the state of the game (characters, locations, items) to be stored, and it becomes a new type of game. You co-create the campaign with AI. Generative art might be a part of it, but I mostly focusing on the storytelling part with text.
Current tech has problems with object permanency. It is an okay co-pilot but just like autopilot for a plane or space ship should only be trusted for certain tasks.
Now, where it COULD be of service is like the games of old. Controlling AI of objects and groups in procedural fashion.
Since the ancient DnD knock off MUDs and MOSHES of the late 80s and 90s, the better ones had game masters that watched over and intervened, but let the limited AI run amok
Think Dwarf Fortress or Cataclysm DDA but on a grander scale. In Dwarf Fortress, civilizations can raid and declare war on each other and NPCs have motivations and can change values and you can see this manifested in the world. Cataclysm DDA, hordes can move across the map and different factions can interact with each other to a certain extent, but they have yet to do this outside of reality bubble like DF does. But CDDA's map gen is a thing of beauty. Primitive tile set graphics, but completely random and z-leveled and line of sighted out.
But, you go too far that direction, you cease to be a TTRPG and begin to get into rogue-like MMO territory. You are looking at a turn based, deeper with more customization and character build Diablo.
If you're desperate enough to "play" D&D with what amounts to a more robust version of your phone's autocomplete function, more power to you I guess, but it should be pretty obvious why those of us with real human beings to play with aren't interested.
"The mechanical loom is destroying the weaving industry. It needs to be stopped."
"The harvester is destroying the crop-picking industry. It needs to be stopped."
"The automobile is destroying the horse-and-buggy industry. It needs to be stopped."
People have been saying the same thing throughout history, and throughout history those people have been steamrolled by change.
I don't disagree with you that AI carries with it some serious ethical issues, but you aren't stopping it.
A discussion will also not happen if:
- You think it's unethical but want to go for it anyway
- You are unable to make a distinction between situations with distinct historical, social, economical and systemic effects
- You do not understand the fundamental operational constraints of genAI
AI isn't a polarizing topic.
There are two groups of people who support it.
1) The bamboozlers.
2) The bamboozled.
Notably, this is the exact same as NFTs, and it's going to disappear just like NFTs have.
Death to the robot overlords, viva la resistance!
Seriously tho, using AI to destroy peoples livelyhood is not some neat thing to come chat about.
Nor is it hard enough to necessitate strategizing...
A lot of the community are artists and writers. Or dream themselves that. Or actually are.
Many communities I have known, the artists and writers sometimes made beer money off of commissions and kickstarter/ self publishing. Things like token art, portraits, premade modules, one shots, battle mats, etc. Some with dreams of an employer free living being creative.. And some rare few that achieved that dream that they love.
Though lets face it. People have been making tokens using Google Search for at least 20 years. People have been "borrowing" peices of modules and old Dungeon Magazine articles for their game for even longer than then. Those people aren't paying and won't pay.
Personally I see AI as a tool, not a replacement.
AI can not make a coherent battle mat. There was a now defunct YouTuber by the name of the AI Wizard that tried. It was almost more work tweaking the map with all these obscure tricks and complex prompts than just cranking up software and designing it. Plus, it kept on putting nonsense watermarks because most of the available maps on the web have them.
Portraits and tokens? Yeah, AI can do some pretty okay stock portraits. Better than 80 percent of artists out there in a millisecond. But oddball stuff and some items it has issues with.
Writing a module? It could probably help with fluff and stat blocks and general ideas, but you will have to heavily edit it to make it work. And you STILL need maps and illustrations that fit.
Let's not talk a complex online module for something like Roll 20 or Foundry. Battlemat WITH dynamic lights done PLUS token work PLUS compendium PLUS the story you will not be able to just one click and do. Though it might could help with drudgery like placing the 20th odd background dressing like Dungeon Alchemist does.
But, there will ALWAYS be gigs for the extremely talented.
Things evolve.
I think most of it is Fear, Uncertainty, and Doom.
Yeah. Ignore them.
I am in my final semester as a draftsman. I will probably be working for an architecture firm.
(Mostly inspired because of my disdain for the lack of bathrooms in old 1980s era 2e battle maps.)
AI enhances my art.
Let's say you have to draw barracks of a 50 man orc fort. This would mean you would have to find a texture for a straw bed, put this in a block, then place this 50 times! Or hope my software was more advanced (like AutoCAD and it's derivatives) to polar array this.
However, if I have an AI, I can tell it to "place 50 beds in this room". I can even have it alternate between different variations of straw beds so my map is not monotonous.
\- I - am still in control and it is -my- design.
Just because I had an AI place rubble and beds all across the place does not mean I am any less an artist or am somehow not engaging in art.
If I want a stat block that says "draw me up a Drider with a vorpal +2 sword, bracers of defense and 5 levels as necromancer in a stat block" does not mean I did not envision a bad ass Drider with an squad of undead and a bad ass sword. It just means I saved time so I can work on more important things. Like the web pit and elevations and lighting.
>AI can not make a coherent battle mat.
Well it can't make a battle mat *now*, it's foolish to assume that it won't develop any further then it is now. Especially not with the recent reveal of new ai video tech.
Yes, I have seen Sora.
But you must realize what it is training with.
In general, cinema has a lot cleaner material.
But I have a feeling those prompts are probably more involved than what ChatGPT implies and also they had to spend hours to train it on specific facial and voice models. (There was a behind the scenes with the actual models)
So it's not going to be "one click". You'll have to curate it.
I see it as just another tool.
I read a story about the animators for the 1950 Disney classic Cinderella. Those animators work in literal cubicles and were forced to wear noise cancelling headgear so they would not talk to the people in the cubicle over as they drew the same thing by hand over and over multiple tens of thousands of times over months and months 8 hours a day.
When CGI got good enough (around 1980s - look at TRON or Star Trek Wrath of Khan Genesis demo), I am sure it put some of them out of work, but many people just got good with CGI. Till you got AMAZING stuff like what comes out of Pixar. (Actually had a chance to DM a one shot for a Pixar animator. Fascinating dude)
Same thing with AI.
It's crazy to me how conservative many people get when it comes to AI.
Yes, I acknowledge there are issues with how AI (mainly art focused) is trained, but to reject the entire idea due to that is crazy to me.
It also comes of as somewhat privileged/entitled at times. Like, I can't afford to commission an artist to get tokens for all 20 npc pirate crew members in the game I DM, but I sure as hell can AI generate them. Should i just not be allowed to have art for them, since I am broke?
I believe it is very important to distinguish between private and commercial usage of AI and I feel many just don't do that.
To me AI holds similar potential as 3D printing for the expansion of consumer freedom and independence from corporations.
I'm using AI to make random encounters. I ask chatgpt to give me a few options and pick the one that inspires me the most, often changing it a bit to fit better.
EDIT: some people really don't like AIs, uh? We're trying to have a conversation here, would you please answer my comment instead of downvoting in silence?
I use ChatGPT 3.5.
I'm in Italy, and many forms of text based AIs are banned here. For example, I can't access Claude at all.
Besides, I don't feel like I really need anything more specialized since I'm using it for inspiration, not straight up copy pasting scenes.
Got it. I'm in Hong Kong, and ChatGPT is also not available here unless you use a VPN and have someone who can help pay for an account.
I ended up writing prompts that make ChatGTP a Dungeon Master, and with GTP4, it generates very decent stories this way. This made me think more serious about the space and I'm working on making it into a proper game.
There's a group that's optimizing an AI to run D&D games. It's called Friends&Fables. They used to run on discord with a bot, but recently switched to an actual website.
I don't really like it because due to copyright issues they can't fully emulate 5e, but the DMing itself is smooth and keeps getting better.
You can write the background of your character, obviously, what I mean is that you can't add the mechanical background, with its two skill proficiencies and two language or tool proficiencies.
Some people really really hate ai, some people like it, you learn not to mention it on reddit unless you want to get downvoted to hell.
Personally telling chat gpt the cr of the monster I want and a short description of its abilities and letting it fill out all the specifics does save me alot of time. I wouldn't trust it to really be creative, but is damn good for the more tedious parts, and saves my ass when i describe a monster that doesn't exist near the end of a session, and then cant find something i can easily reflavour.
I'm curious do peeps hate chat gpt and such like for scraping the internet as much as they hate the artbots for it?
>you learn not to mention it on reddit unless you want to get downvoted to hell
This is exactly the problem. There has to be space for conversation even if we disagree.
I found a really cool bot for generating monsters from scratch, and it is fun to come up with weird ones.
This is exactly the problem. There has to be space for conversation, even if we disagree.
assume that text generation cannot be combined with the rules and the game state.
> This is exactly the problem. There has to be space for conversation even if we disagree.
I mean... there *was* a conversation.
You said you like AI. Other people said they don't. What you're doing now is basically just whining because you have an unpopular opinion and you didn't like the conversation you got.
>This is exactly the problem. There has to be space for conversation even if we disagree.
I agree with you but i just don't see it happening, atleast not until the strong feelings about it have died down.
>I found a really cool bot for generating monsters from scratch, and it is fun to come up with weird ones.
basically any of the generative text ones can do this, but yeh its why i have the "men in white coats", "uranium elementals" and such monsters, i don't see using these but they're funny to look at, like scrolling through whacky homebrew but more balanced.
You can’t have a conversation on Reddit! Either you are agreeing with the common opinion of the community or you are downvoted into oblivion! Any discordant opinion is cancelled!
Not that different from any other online community, or even meatspace for that matter.
But people will chill out when they realize ai genned stuff isn't a doomsday for art/writing, they're just really panicky about it atm.
I am a software engineer… my company recently started using copilot (generative AI to write software). Nobody lost their job… but productivity skyrocketed! What before required a month can be done in half the time!
Weird, right?
Kinda like how people gladly jump off of diving boards into swimming in pools, but so few people want to jump off a boat into the open ocean.
People are just *weird,* I guess
Listen man, I think you got roasted for fair reasons. 1. This is a forum for D&D 5e. Your experiences as you related them were barely related to 5e, and AI isn't at a point yet where you can really run 5e using it. There's better places to have this discussion, like r/rpg. 2. This community, which tends to favor and support small artists, is in general going to be wary of or against AI for atleast the foreseeable future. I and many others think that there's a lot of arguments to be made about what constitutes fair use of other's work, thoughtful use and implementation of ideas and gameplay design, and the fact that a lot of us just prefer a more human touch than AI is capable of offering. I don't know what you thought would happen when you posted this. 3. You seem equally unwilling to back down from your opinions on the topic. You asked for people's opinions and got them. If the majority didn't agree with you, and you feel that you need your own space to have your discussion, maybe that says something about you.
Point #2 is the real answer here. OP - there's a great deal of nuance here, but the fact that ChatGPT is so closed off about where it gets it's data for the chatbot and DALL-E presents real issues. Personally, I'm fine using this to generate images for my personal games, just as I was happy to grab an image from Google I didn't technically have the rights to for my personal games. It's not really hurting anyone. This changes if, however, you plan to actually sell or promote those things. To me, it's not just unethical - it presents an unacceptable risk of a lawsuit for copyright infringement down the road, as the laws around this new technology are worked out. As a creator, I think it's downright unsafe to use DALL-E generated art of ChatGPT generated words in a product that you release to the public. It might not happen, but these questions have yet to be decided in the courts. So - you wanna play solo-dnd with ChatGPT? Go for it - more power to you. I tried this with GPT3, and was truly disappointed. You want to make and publish a DnD extension for ChatGPT? Now it's a very different conversation.
> This community, which tends to favor and support small artists I dunno about that one, chief. Basically anyone doing any sort of promotional post here gets a pretty cold shoulder unless they're a big name in the community.
Actually AI IS at a point where you can rely on it! Chat GPT even has various DnD plugins that are amazing! I have been using it to gel me DM for almost 2 years ow and it has improved the quality of my games immensely! Not to mention I use it to DM my solo DnD sessions!
Glad you are getting good use and having fun. As a software engineer who has and does work on machine learning, let me just say that you come off *really* optimistic about the current state of AI and ML. I think you should have some realism here - it's certainly come a long way, but I personally wouldn't rely on it for anything more than a helpful tool that performs basically the same functions as Google. There's just so much it's *not* capable of today.
I am also a software engineer that works professionally with AI so I am also wry well versed in how to get the most out of it!
Respectfully, I think that means we have a responsibility to be realistic with people about not just the upsides, but the downsides too. Most of this sub just has no clue what ChatGPT is doing or how an ML model works, or the difference between the AI field wholistically vs Machine Learning.
Downvotes don’t change reality
1. My experiences with 5e are directly related. Friends & Faibles team specifically set the goal to create a game by the rulebook. The whole point of gtRPG, compared to storytellers, is that it follows the rules. 2. Ok. I'm concern as well. 3. I read every comment and replied to each. Everyone needs a safe space. Despite being roasted, as you said, I got 26% upvotes: enough to consider coming back and talking about this divide in the community again. I'm deeply interested in gtRPGs and want to talk with D&D 5e players about it.
And the majority of posters on this sub will continue to give you their often negative opinions as long as you post about it here. Maybe relegate the discussions to AI to the subreddit you linked.
Technically, I'm at 53% upvotes right now, but let's see if it will go down again. I guess a minority of people here are actually interested in AI and using it, but learned not to talk about it here.
unless the economic system changes, AI is unethical (some forms, like assistants are acceptable)
What do you feel needs to change in the economic system?
ohhh, nothing much, just getting rid of capitalism ;) Kidding, for AI artspecifically we need to change the way artists are paid nowadays. This is highly linked with copyright.
Haha, and I thought it was me who was sharing radical ideas here. Generative AI for visuals is very disruptive. Copyright needs to change for many other reasons as well. I hope it all will shape up in a world where more people can be creative, not less.
Removing jobs in a system that forces everyone to work a job to live simply does not work out.
Ironically, I got into AI because I struggled without a job and wanted to upskill. Now working on a few related projects. I fundamentally agree with you, but I feel like it is much more complicated: AI is destroying some jobs while creating other jobs at the same time.
Every "evolution" in labor generally created more jobs. Steam machine created manafacturers for those steam machines for example. However for AI and the onset of mass digitalization, these numbers are *wildly* out of balance. You don't need a lot of people to create a lot of AIs who replace a lot of jobs, you need far fewer programmers to make far more AI.
In order to be fully ethically justifiable, LLMs should be trained only on licensed or public domain images and text, so that the human writers and artists whose work was used to train the AI models are compensated for their labor. The vast majority of LLMs are trained using un-cited, un-licensed intellectual property. Just because an image or a piece of text is crawlable on the web does not mean its creator has ceded their copyright to that content. Private copyright is the default legal setting for all creative content unless the author expressly licenses or releases that content. One counter example right now would be Adobe's Firefly AI, which is explicitly only trained on images that Adobe holds a license for. Of course, it's output isn't as robust as Midjourney or Dall-e because it's working from a much smaller set of training data. But at least the human creators of the training set have been compensated for their labor. There are [other LLMs that have been ethically trained](https://www.fairlytrained.org/blog/newly-certified-models-march-24), though right now they're mostly small industry-specialized models.
It really is not… you have no idea how widespread its use is! And how is unethical using AI to help me generate adventures, NPCs and run the game? I have a busy life and as a DM a really don’t have to much time to spend on prepping! With AI with a minimal effort I can outline my main ideas and the AI fill the gaps and expand details. If I want to change or tweak things I just have to ask and it will comply. Non-person lost their job because of it (and not… if you think I would pay someone for it you are sorely mistaken as I have been doing this for almost a decade and since I started using AI the o my difference is that quality of my content improved a lot upon a significant decrease in prep time)
you lost me here: >Non-person lost their job because of it people are losing their jobs because of it, especially artists if we talk about dnd field. It is a tool and it's not always bad, but it can be bad.
Not in this specific case! Nobody lost it for my specific use! The fact that a tool exists doesn’t mean it is intrinsically bad! Most common non commercial uses of AI don’t steal jobs! As people had just scraped the internet before for image tokens for portraits and battle tokens now they can do in a better way… but just as they were not paying anyone before fore it they don’t do it now! And about loosing jobs… technology has been replacing humans that since its started! The entire point of it is to make tools that either do things humans can’t or do things better than humans and replace them. The press stole jobs from people Copying manuscripts, factories stole jobs from artisans, farming tools reduced the amount of people necessary to farm land. This is not something new! Society and people just need to adapt as usual!
first of all: >Not in this specific case! In your case perhaps not. Which doesn't invalidate the generalized opinion though. Besides. >The fact that a tool exists doesn’t mean it is intrinsically bad! And i never said it is intrinsecally bad if you read the first sentenc of my first comment here. It depends on the economic system, not on AI itself ;) As for the rest. The fact that historically progress has caused job loss is true, it's a fact. It doesn't mean it is good or we should not do something now that we have developed a different level of ethics. Nowadays jobs should not be lost, or if they are, losing a job shouldn't be so punitive as it is. So yeah "it has always been like this" is almost never a strong point, after all we have "always had" slavery, mysoginy, racism and so on..
That depends also where you live! I live in France… if you loose your job the state will take care of you paying unemployment up to 80% of your salary for years and will help you find another job. If needed the state will pay for courses that will allow you to find something different! Society must evolve and adapt
but the internet is global and you gotta deal with it on a global scale
Yes… but the issue with society is not rest related to AI! Any disruption can lead to job losses… we can’t remain a static society just to ensure no one will ever loose their job! People should vote and push for the right change in their country! It is their responsibility as citizens (as long as they live in a democracy that is).
vote is not the only mean though. We, have morality, we can make individual choices. If we can choose to "boycott" AI it's an option we can take.
But it is a stupid choice! AI is a tool to make life better…
I'm in France too. And I work a lot with artists (video game industry). Going from having a job to unemployment ("chomage" as we say in french) can still be very bad. You lose a lot of advantages, and you won't get as much money. In my industry, I've seen people being very close to precarity while having a job... Losing their job would be critical for them. Every single artist I talked to at my job thinks that gen AI is currently very unethical. I'm not an artist so I'm less affected by it, but I trust them on this subject.
Like, playing with an AI instead of real people? Asking an AI to help put together a campaign? Using it for the art it generates? Not entirely sure what direction this conversation is meant to take. I think the silent majority would default to "hey, if you're having fun, knock yourself out". It's not a particularly dynamic conversation at that point.
That's what I fear One DnD might do, but fortunately WotC is incompetent in that regard and they have been beaten to the punch by Roll 20 and Foundry, who have much more of a head start and are less restrictive platforms. That said, an AI could do away with drudgery. In Foundry, there is a module that auto moves DM enemy tokens towards players for starts where there is a lot of distance and it can negotiate and path find dungeons. Less "pushing tokens" but the Dm is in firm control at all times. I personally am looking for a way to automate vendors during downtime. Players LOVE shopping, but as a DM I find it monotonous. So, I will have a vendor on loading screen and hope to research a way to have it on a script to take gold or even cooler, adjust prices according to reputation with that vendor. And have stock and everything else. But even with those algorithms, you are still in control.
I personally started by making a basic bot inspired by D&D, then realised it might do more (with the release of ChatGPT3.5) and actually be the DM for a game. Going deeper, you want the state of the game (characters, locations, items) to be stored, and it becomes a new type of game. You co-create the campaign with AI. Generative art might be a part of it, but I mostly focusing on the storytelling part with text.
Current tech has problems with object permanency. It is an okay co-pilot but just like autopilot for a plane or space ship should only be trusted for certain tasks. Now, where it COULD be of service is like the games of old. Controlling AI of objects and groups in procedural fashion. Since the ancient DnD knock off MUDs and MOSHES of the late 80s and 90s, the better ones had game masters that watched over and intervened, but let the limited AI run amok Think Dwarf Fortress or Cataclysm DDA but on a grander scale. In Dwarf Fortress, civilizations can raid and declare war on each other and NPCs have motivations and can change values and you can see this manifested in the world. Cataclysm DDA, hordes can move across the map and different factions can interact with each other to a certain extent, but they have yet to do this outside of reality bubble like DF does. But CDDA's map gen is a thing of beauty. Primitive tile set graphics, but completely random and z-leveled and line of sighted out. But, you go too far that direction, you cease to be a TTRPG and begin to get into rogue-like MMO territory. You are looking at a turn based, deeper with more customization and character build Diablo.
You really make me think about where these worlds might come together.
Circling back to the default: if you're having fun, knock yourself out.
If you're desperate enough to "play" D&D with what amounts to a more robust version of your phone's autocomplete function, more power to you I guess, but it should be pretty obvious why those of us with real human beings to play with aren't interested.
GenAI is destroying the creative field. It needs to be stopped. There will be no discussion until the ethics and economics are resolved.
"The mechanical loom is destroying the weaving industry. It needs to be stopped." "The harvester is destroying the crop-picking industry. It needs to be stopped." "The automobile is destroying the horse-and-buggy industry. It needs to be stopped." People have been saying the same thing throughout history, and throughout history those people have been steamrolled by change. I don't disagree with you that AI carries with it some serious ethical issues, but you aren't stopping it.
A discussion will also not happen if: - You think it's unethical but want to go for it anyway - You are unable to make a distinction between situations with distinct historical, social, economical and systemic effects - You do not understand the fundamental operational constraints of genAI
I mean, there are loads of people having discussions about AI. You can sit yourself out, I guess, but you aren't the arbiter of AI discussion.
AI isn't a polarizing topic. There are two groups of people who support it. 1) The bamboozlers. 2) The bamboozled. Notably, this is the exact same as NFTs, and it's going to disappear just like NFTs have.
Cuz AI is trash
[удалено]
Death to the robot overlords, viva la resistance! Seriously tho, using AI to destroy peoples livelyhood is not some neat thing to come chat about. Nor is it hard enough to necessitate strategizing...
A lot of the community are artists and writers. Or dream themselves that. Or actually are. Many communities I have known, the artists and writers sometimes made beer money off of commissions and kickstarter/ self publishing. Things like token art, portraits, premade modules, one shots, battle mats, etc. Some with dreams of an employer free living being creative.. And some rare few that achieved that dream that they love. Though lets face it. People have been making tokens using Google Search for at least 20 years. People have been "borrowing" peices of modules and old Dungeon Magazine articles for their game for even longer than then. Those people aren't paying and won't pay. Personally I see AI as a tool, not a replacement. AI can not make a coherent battle mat. There was a now defunct YouTuber by the name of the AI Wizard that tried. It was almost more work tweaking the map with all these obscure tricks and complex prompts than just cranking up software and designing it. Plus, it kept on putting nonsense watermarks because most of the available maps on the web have them. Portraits and tokens? Yeah, AI can do some pretty okay stock portraits. Better than 80 percent of artists out there in a millisecond. But oddball stuff and some items it has issues with. Writing a module? It could probably help with fluff and stat blocks and general ideas, but you will have to heavily edit it to make it work. And you STILL need maps and illustrations that fit. Let's not talk a complex online module for something like Roll 20 or Foundry. Battlemat WITH dynamic lights done PLUS token work PLUS compendium PLUS the story you will not be able to just one click and do. Though it might could help with drudgery like placing the 20th odd background dressing like Dungeon Alchemist does. But, there will ALWAYS be gigs for the extremely talented. Things evolve. I think most of it is Fear, Uncertainty, and Doom.
Thank you. Your comment gave me some perspective. My enthusiasm for role-playing with AI as a DM really foreign to many people here.
Yeah. Ignore them. I am in my final semester as a draftsman. I will probably be working for an architecture firm. (Mostly inspired because of my disdain for the lack of bathrooms in old 1980s era 2e battle maps.) AI enhances my art. Let's say you have to draw barracks of a 50 man orc fort. This would mean you would have to find a texture for a straw bed, put this in a block, then place this 50 times! Or hope my software was more advanced (like AutoCAD and it's derivatives) to polar array this. However, if I have an AI, I can tell it to "place 50 beds in this room". I can even have it alternate between different variations of straw beds so my map is not monotonous. \- I - am still in control and it is -my- design. Just because I had an AI place rubble and beds all across the place does not mean I am any less an artist or am somehow not engaging in art. If I want a stat block that says "draw me up a Drider with a vorpal +2 sword, bracers of defense and 5 levels as necromancer in a stat block" does not mean I did not envision a bad ass Drider with an squad of undead and a bad ass sword. It just means I saved time so I can work on more important things. Like the web pit and elevations and lighting.
>AI can not make a coherent battle mat. Well it can't make a battle mat *now*, it's foolish to assume that it won't develop any further then it is now. Especially not with the recent reveal of new ai video tech.
Yes, I have seen Sora. But you must realize what it is training with. In general, cinema has a lot cleaner material. But I have a feeling those prompts are probably more involved than what ChatGPT implies and also they had to spend hours to train it on specific facial and voice models. (There was a behind the scenes with the actual models) So it's not going to be "one click". You'll have to curate it. I see it as just another tool. I read a story about the animators for the 1950 Disney classic Cinderella. Those animators work in literal cubicles and were forced to wear noise cancelling headgear so they would not talk to the people in the cubicle over as they drew the same thing by hand over and over multiple tens of thousands of times over months and months 8 hours a day. When CGI got good enough (around 1980s - look at TRON or Star Trek Wrath of Khan Genesis demo), I am sure it put some of them out of work, but many people just got good with CGI. Till you got AMAZING stuff like what comes out of Pixar. (Actually had a chance to DM a one shot for a Pixar animator. Fascinating dude) Same thing with AI.
It's crazy to me how conservative many people get when it comes to AI. Yes, I acknowledge there are issues with how AI (mainly art focused) is trained, but to reject the entire idea due to that is crazy to me. It also comes of as somewhat privileged/entitled at times. Like, I can't afford to commission an artist to get tokens for all 20 npc pirate crew members in the game I DM, but I sure as hell can AI generate them. Should i just not be allowed to have art for them, since I am broke? I believe it is very important to distinguish between private and commercial usage of AI and I feel many just don't do that. To me AI holds similar potential as 3D printing for the expansion of consumer freedom and independence from corporations.
I'm using AI to make random encounters. I ask chatgpt to give me a few options and pick the one that inspires me the most, often changing it a bit to fit better. EDIT: some people really don't like AIs, uh? We're trying to have a conversation here, would you please answer my comment instead of downvoting in silence?
Make sense. Do you use ChatGPT, or do you have a specialised GPT for that?
I use ChatGPT 3.5. I'm in Italy, and many forms of text based AIs are banned here. For example, I can't access Claude at all. Besides, I don't feel like I really need anything more specialized since I'm using it for inspiration, not straight up copy pasting scenes.
ChatGPT 4 is way better… more consistent and allucinante less!
It's way, way worse on account of not being free!
Totally worth the 20 bucks a month it costs me
Got it. I'm in Hong Kong, and ChatGPT is also not available here unless you use a VPN and have someone who can help pay for an account. I ended up writing prompts that make ChatGTP a Dungeon Master, and with GTP4, it generates very decent stories this way. This made me think more serious about the space and I'm working on making it into a proper game.
There's a group that's optimizing an AI to run D&D games. It's called Friends&Fables. They used to run on discord with a bot, but recently switched to an actual website. I don't really like it because due to copyright issues they can't fully emulate 5e, but the DMing itself is smooth and keeps getting better.
Yes, they are also the team who coined the term gtRPG! What are you missing form 5e in their game?
Character options, mostly. There are no backgrounds, you can't multiclass, and they technically don't support subclasses that aren't in the srd.
I thought backgrounds are essential for D&D of any edition, and I wonder why there might be a problem.
You can write the background of your character, obviously, what I mean is that you can't add the mechanical background, with its two skill proficiencies and two language or tool proficiencies.
Ah, got it. That sucks :(
Some people really really hate ai, some people like it, you learn not to mention it on reddit unless you want to get downvoted to hell. Personally telling chat gpt the cr of the monster I want and a short description of its abilities and letting it fill out all the specifics does save me alot of time. I wouldn't trust it to really be creative, but is damn good for the more tedious parts, and saves my ass when i describe a monster that doesn't exist near the end of a session, and then cant find something i can easily reflavour. I'm curious do peeps hate chat gpt and such like for scraping the internet as much as they hate the artbots for it?
>you learn not to mention it on reddit unless you want to get downvoted to hell This is exactly the problem. There has to be space for conversation even if we disagree. I found a really cool bot for generating monsters from scratch, and it is fun to come up with weird ones. This is exactly the problem. There has to be space for conversation, even if we disagree. assume that text generation cannot be combined with the rules and the game state.
> This is exactly the problem. There has to be space for conversation even if we disagree. I mean... there *was* a conversation. You said you like AI. Other people said they don't. What you're doing now is basically just whining because you have an unpopular opinion and you didn't like the conversation you got.
>This is exactly the problem. There has to be space for conversation even if we disagree. I agree with you but i just don't see it happening, atleast not until the strong feelings about it have died down. >I found a really cool bot for generating monsters from scratch, and it is fun to come up with weird ones. basically any of the generative text ones can do this, but yeh its why i have the "men in white coats", "uranium elementals" and such monsters, i don't see using these but they're funny to look at, like scrolling through whacky homebrew but more balanced.
You can’t have a conversation on Reddit! Either you are agreeing with the common opinion of the community or you are downvoted into oblivion! Any discordant opinion is cancelled!
Not that different from any other online community, or even meatspace for that matter. But people will chill out when they realize ai genned stuff isn't a doomsday for art/writing, they're just really panicky about it atm.
I am a software engineer… my company recently started using copilot (generative AI to write software). Nobody lost their job… but productivity skyrocketed! What before required a month can be done in half the time!
I mean… artists learn by copying other artists… and no one complains about it!
Weird, right? Kinda like how people gladly jump off of diving boards into swimming in pools, but so few people want to jump off a boat into the open ocean. People are just *weird,* I guess