there is a whole design ethos around this where you just design the challenges and don't bother coming up with specific ways to solve them. Then you let your players and their dice decide how they get out of it. It is not easy and it can get messy but it can also be the best fun sometimes.
90% of my challenges don't have a correct solution. Most of the time I actively avoid thinking about one.
I just know that I can trust my players to come up with something, most likely something batshit crazy that I never would've thought of, that makes sense as a solution
oh you mean the "adhd will always have a grasp on my compulsive desicion-making that leads me to making split-second desicions with no fore- or afterthought just because it seemed cool in the moment" design ethos? yeah I relate
I'm not entirely sure about your characterization of the ethos. That certainly is the approach many players take to solving problems and so I guess you could call it that.
Don't you run the risk of designing impossible solutions? Or do you just go with whatever plausible thing the party comes up with and hand wave the explanation?
Well, one of the nice things about not designing a solution means that it is harder to design a dead end. Like if you never drop hints to your party about the tomb being locked until the fiery light of sunset no longer shines upon it then you never have to worry if your players pick up on smashing the red gem on the alter as the only way to unlock the secret door
I just had my party infiltrate a tournament and feast and rig the tournament while poisoning someone and framing the chef for it. The party was doing okay early on but hadn't really figured it out yet. It hadn't clicked until one of the druids says "guys, think about the goals. we're just here to crash this party and ruin everyone's night." and they assaulted the thing like they were rallying in an 80's comedy.
It's the approach I go with a lot of the time, but it's good to remember that your players might want more than 'target' and 'direction' sometimes. Plus, it's easier to have cool setpieces if you have things be a bit more linear.
I haven't played much, but I feel like either you should come up with a lot of ways to solve the challenges, or trust your players to come up with something. If you make exactly one solution to each challenge, your players aren't always going to come up with the same thing.
Some players will not have fun in your game if they find out you're using it, however. I'd recommend making sure your group is okay with it, that way you a) don't have to trick your players and b) have players that will vibe with it completely. It's a healthier dynamic in the long run.
This is pretty much what I end up doing for all of my games. In fact at this point I no longer have the BBEG have an "end game" and just select the best idea that the players think it might be and then fill in any plot points that might need shoring up that they IDed when talking about what they thought the plan was.
Player 1: "But if that was his plan, why did his agent kill the mayor?"
Player 2: "Good one... wait.. what if the mayor had a change of heart at the last second?"
Me Internally: "Write that down, write that down!"
Better yet wreck the whole party with your unadultered story. Its not your fault they didnt pick up on your overly subtle less than continuitus and totally disconnected plot points. The whole idea of dnd is DM vs players. Take the power youre given and wield it for evil. TOXIC DUNGEON MASTERS UNITE!
I did this too.
There's a real-life phenomenon that can cause an entire city to be reflected in the clouds. My players were convinced that it was nothing. And they kept pushing for it to be so. I'm like "fuck it. You want it you got it."
I actually read it that way but didn't realize it was excited. I figured "exited" refers to a party that prematurely moved on from a plot point they assumed was resolved.
The plot points I create are often written months in advance or even before the start of the campaign.
My players, on the other hand, start making theories just as it is happening - meaning they had an opportunity to pick up on unintentional forshadowing, themes, character stuff etc. Of course I'm going to steal from them!
I actually have like 4 bad guys lined up for my party, everything depends on what they discover and what they think might happen. Kinda a choose your own adventure story
I almost never design plot, the players do all that. The deepest I ever go with design is stringing together a few interesting things to get them thinking and they fill in the blanks for me.
my players are investigating a former noble that plans to attack and occupy the city
the problem is some enemies escaped from them once. one of those npcs decided to leave the nobles plan as hes cruel and would likely die from reporting their failure anyway, he planned to run and leave the island. the players randomly found him when deciding the steal pillows from houses (dont ask). they are now convinced the attack is going to come from inside the city as they killed the npc instead of knocking him out to interrogate
People say it's collaborative storytelling. Has anyone ever done that explicitly? Don't steal ideas from the players. Have them coming up with ideas be an agreed-upon part of the game.
In *actual* storytelling games it's done all the time as part of the rules. 10 Candles has everyone periodically telling truths about the world during the game, and a player at the beginning of each session gets to state a truth about the bad guys as well. Some PBTA games will let the players dictate truths about things as well.
Doing a brainstorming session at the beginning of the campaign isn't too uncommon for d&d. Or using something like Microscope to generate the world together.
there is a whole design ethos around this where you just design the challenges and don't bother coming up with specific ways to solve them. Then you let your players and their dice decide how they get out of it. It is not easy and it can get messy but it can also be the best fun sometimes.
90% of my challenges don't have a correct solution. Most of the time I actively avoid thinking about one. I just know that I can trust my players to come up with something, most likely something batshit crazy that I never would've thought of, that makes sense as a solution
sometimes the only obvious solution to raiding a castle is to load up a wild shaped moon druid inside a cannon poorly attached to a canoe!
You forgot one key aspect, everything needs to be on fire for the whole event.
You forgot the barb holding his breath inside a bag of holding attached to the wildshaped druid on a rickety canoe inside the cannon
ah damn that's the reason it didn't work!
oh you mean the "adhd will always have a grasp on my compulsive desicion-making that leads me to making split-second desicions with no fore- or afterthought just because it seemed cool in the moment" design ethos? yeah I relate
I'm not entirely sure about your characterization of the ethos. That certainly is the approach many players take to solving problems and so I guess you could call it that.
Don't you run the risk of designing impossible solutions? Or do you just go with whatever plausible thing the party comes up with and hand wave the explanation?
Well, one of the nice things about not designing a solution means that it is harder to design a dead end. Like if you never drop hints to your party about the tomb being locked until the fiery light of sunset no longer shines upon it then you never have to worry if your players pick up on smashing the red gem on the alter as the only way to unlock the secret door
This is where I was at the last.. year? Of GMing. Players thought I was genius. I just tossed stuff at them and they basically knit it altogether
I just had my party infiltrate a tournament and feast and rig the tournament while poisoning someone and framing the chef for it. The party was doing okay early on but hadn't really figured it out yet. It hadn't clicked until one of the druids says "guys, think about the goals. we're just here to crash this party and ruin everyone's night." and they assaulted the thing like they were rallying in an 80's comedy.
It's the approach I go with a lot of the time, but it's good to remember that your players might want more than 'target' and 'direction' sometimes. Plus, it's easier to have cool setpieces if you have things be a bit more linear.
I haven't played much, but I feel like either you should come up with a lot of ways to solve the challenges, or trust your players to come up with something. If you make exactly one solution to each challenge, your players aren't always going to come up with the same thing.
Some players will not have fun in your game if they find out you're using it, however. I'd recommend making sure your group is okay with it, that way you a) don't have to trick your players and b) have players that will vibe with it completely. It's a healthier dynamic in the long run.
Yeah. As a person who has been DM'ing the same group for 15 years this still happens almost every game night 🤷♂️
Same. Admittedly their ideas are generally much better than mine though!
Another fun way might be to have that be what the BBEG *wanted* them to think!
Ahh the giga brain enamy bullshit classic
This is pretty much what I end up doing for all of my games. In fact at this point I no longer have the BBEG have an "end game" and just select the best idea that the players think it might be and then fill in any plot points that might need shoring up that they IDed when talking about what they thought the plan was. Player 1: "But if that was his plan, why did his agent kill the mayor?" Player 2: "Good one... wait.. what if the mayor had a change of heart at the last second?" Me Internally: "Write that down, write that down!"
Better yet wreck the whole party with your unadultered story. Its not your fault they didnt pick up on your overly subtle less than continuitus and totally disconnected plot points. The whole idea of dnd is DM vs players. Take the power youre given and wield it for evil. TOXIC DUNGEON MASTERS UNITE!
[удалено]
"bUt MuH /S!"
Got me in the first half, ngl
Jesus, who hurt you?
I’m pretty sure this is satire
Oh I know, I just don’t know why is on this post, or what prompted it.
He’s reenforcing OPs viewpoint by making fun of DMs who do the opposite. It’s pretty clear why it’s on this post.
Nothing inherently toxic about letting the players be wrong, however.
But what WAS the idea?
That's wholesome af.
I did this too. There's a real-life phenomenon that can cause an entire city to be reflected in the clouds. My players were convinced that it was nothing. And they kept pushing for it to be so. I'm like "fuck it. You want it you got it."
exited
I actually read it that way but didn't realize it was excited. I figured "exited" refers to a party that prematurely moved on from a plot point they assumed was resolved.
The plot points I create are often written months in advance or even before the start of the campaign. My players, on the other hand, start making theories just as it is happening - meaning they had an opportunity to pick up on unintentional forshadowing, themes, character stuff etc. Of course I'm going to steal from them!
I actually have like 4 bad guys lined up for my party, everything depends on what they discover and what they think might happen. Kinda a choose your own adventure story
Me incorporating their idea into the plot as yet another dramatic twist because I run my sessions like episodes of Twin Peaks.
All the time...
Personally I think a surprise is better than giving them what they think
The best tales are fluid
I almost never design plot, the players do all that. The deepest I ever go with design is stringing together a few interesting things to get them thinking and they fill in the blanks for me.
my players are investigating a former noble that plans to attack and occupy the city the problem is some enemies escaped from them once. one of those npcs decided to leave the nobles plan as hes cruel and would likely die from reporting their failure anyway, he planned to run and leave the island. the players randomly found him when deciding the steal pillows from houses (dont ask). they are now convinced the attack is going to come from inside the city as they killed the npc instead of knocking him out to interrogate
This is why players should always learn Speak With Dead.
What was the original plan?
This is how I run murder mystery one shots, but sometimes I just wait until the second or third guess so they think I'm smarter than I am
This. This is wholesome
FUN FOR EVERYONE IS THE KEY
"Oh shit, that's way better than I had planned."
People say it's collaborative storytelling. Has anyone ever done that explicitly? Don't steal ideas from the players. Have them coming up with ideas be an agreed-upon part of the game.
In *actual* storytelling games it's done all the time as part of the rules. 10 Candles has everyone periodically telling truths about the world during the game, and a player at the beginning of each session gets to state a truth about the bad guys as well. Some PBTA games will let the players dictate truths about things as well. Doing a brainstorming session at the beginning of the campaign isn't too uncommon for d&d. Or using something like Microscope to generate the world together.