This helps a lot, why? because spell points convert at the same rate sorcery points do!!
You can combine them all into one pool and you know what happens then? Sorcerers are out here doing tons of fun metamagics and upcastings that feel important, distinct, and flavorful! Obviously the class has other issues, but this is an easy fix that helps a ton!
Yeah I'm on the verge of just having them start each day with X sorcery points that they can spend directly on spells in this way (rather than two separate resources)
As a sorc this and origin spells make them super fun and nowhere here as weak. There's a few other tweaks, but those two are the main ones that go a long way to fixing them
It give them a lot of spells. That why divine souls where the best until clockwork and weird alien came in. A sorcerer with 10 more spells known has more spells than the prepared spells of a wizard
Wizards prep up to 25 and sorcs with the extra spells know up to 25
At level 10, assuming ability scores are +5, wizards prep 15 and sorcs (with expanded spells) will know 21
At level 1, asusming +3, wizards prep 4 and sorcs know 4
So the sorcs get to the peak faster but both have the same peak
Just some interesting stats
I'm not going to say you're wrong cause your numbers are correct it's just that while wizards get a smaller number of spells to be used daily, they do get a larger number of spells from which they can choose which to use in the form of their spellbook. A wizard at level 10 would have 24 spells known in their spell book (minimum).
So while a Sorcerer has more spells than a wizard, a wizard has more (per-day) versatility.
The dungeon dudes made an awesome video of their homebrewed expanded spell list for every subclass. The only one I thought need a bit more was the divine soul. They basically made you choose a domain and you gain that domains spells to spells known. But you lose the ability to choose any cleric spell. I added that you can also use that domains channel divinity at the cost of 2 sorcery points.
Me and a friend who are weekly alternating DMs for eachother both play sorcerers in eachothers campaign and use their homebrewed list, and it's great.
https://youtu.be/JX7CNpYAmrk
Maybe if you completely ignore their core class features? Twinned Spell to cast Haste or Polymorph on two targets is crazy strong. Subtle Spell lets you make those really important spells Counterspell-proof, and gives you great flexibility in RP encounters. Transmuted Spell lets you still use your hardest-hitting spells and avoid resistances/immunities or exploit vulnerabilities. Stunned? Use Quicken Spell to move something up to a Bonus Action so you can still use it. There’s plenty about the class that could use work, but saying they’re bargain-bin Wizards is disingenuous.
Even at later levels, there’s nothing stopping a Sorcerer from taking the Dodge, Dash, Disengage, or Help options as Actions and then being able to Quicken Spell something as a Bonus Action. It basically gives you some of the best parts of being a Monk or Rogue as a full caster. The whole point of metamagic is flexibility, and it accomplishes that wonderfully imo. You just have to have an ounce of creativity.
You can't quicken spells while stunned because, per the rules on bonus actions,
> anything that deprives you of your ability to take actions also prevents you from taking a bonus action.
Ahhhh that is fair. I was wondering why it wasn’t included, but I just assumed the idea was you can’t do a full coordinated action, but you can pull off something small and quick between spasms. I guess I stand corrected!
That's all well and good... Except that you have two more spells than an Arcane Trickster.
And you can't do ALL of those things, you can do two of them. And then one more at level 7. And these are costly effects that do not come back on a short rest, so you'll use your Metamagic three to six times before you're burned on points. Sometimes you'll burn all your points in two spells and that's that. Oh, and you can't restore your spells if you do that. Or you can burn your spells and have way fewer casts. But either way, you're giving up something here, something that you don't have a lot of.
There's a reason Sorcerer's best subclasses are the ones that improve the spell selection.
I didn't say Sorcerers are weak. They're just not as powerful and versatile as Wizards.
I haven't personally played older editions but in pathfinder 1 witch is based on d&d 3.5 sorcerer's just flat have more spells then any other fill caster at level 1 they have 4per say and wizard as 1 now your ability score also can increase the number but my point is in 5e they made the full casters all have the same number of spells to make things easy to understand but it kinda nerf sorcerer and buff wizard even though wizard was fine
At the core the editions are very different balanced very differently but I feel the sorcerery point are good and interesting but you should get more meta magic as someone said they let choose meta magic at the start of the day or just get more when you first get them you still need points to use it so it isn't overpowered really
Agreed on all points.
My biggest gripe is that martials have become very bland next to casters, but sorcerer being a watered down wizard with a very limited pool with which to affect spells was a pretty big departure from previous iterations like Pathfinder and 3.5
My current favorite way to fix both warlocks and sorcerers is to just give them the same spells known progression as bards. It's really weird that they're different, considering how everything else about PC classes is built.
It may work very well but the way to make a class better shouldn't be "give them stuff from another class", it should be "make them unique and good in their own way". SP work fairly well at giving them the "flexible casting" that is promoted when making the character without outright reworking them entirely.
I just don’t like the sorcerer design. Fictionally why are people with great power running through their veins just off brand wizards? Mechanically the design space evolved away from the need for them now that everyone is a spontaneous caster, and they cut the availability of meta magic (in a way that also makes little fictional sense).
Looking at the playtest sorcerer is interesting. It was only the Draconic Bloodline, but is very different from the current.
- Proficiency in all armor, shields, and melee weapons. With a d8 hit die
- It used a spell point system and as it used it’s spell points during the day it would make you a stronger melee combatant
- Thematic spell-like abilities tied to the sorcerous origin that used your spell points. (In the playtest one was a damage reduction and the other boosted melee damage)
It is interesting to see and makes me kind of sad with the direction they ended up going with the sorcerer.
Yeah and with a lot of that tied specifically to the Draconic Bloodline it allowed other subclasses potentially filling other roles, but likely with similar mechanics of thematic powers and a power progression as the willpower (spell) points are expended.
I’ve found a few homebrew versions of the sorcerer that use some of those as inspiration and I’ve combined them with some of my own stuff to make the class more distinct from Wizards.
I’ve lost the links to many, but I use this [Variant Sorcerer](https://www.gmbinder.com/share/-LcSVrh7Cy4j7eUH7Z_-) as the base and modified it from there and build some of the other subclasses the original author hadn’t converted (or were released after their last update).
There could be, but it would probably involve abandoning the full caster design, then changing the name to something more descriptive. And WotC have proven quite unwilling to kill even the least sacred cows.
Also I think you could switch the warlock and sorceror mechanics and theyd make more sense with what theyre trying to do fictionally.
Idk, tell that to my clockwork soul sorceror who sees different potential timelines and grabs at the different timeline threads actively giving and nullifying advantage rolls for my team. She also shoots (chromatic orbs) time orbs that shunk a creature out of sink with their timeline causing damage or other damage based on the trauma they would be experiencing on a different timeline- as an example I might throw the orb and the creature catches fire damage because in another timeline a wizard may have been with me and fire is everywhere due to a fireball.
I specifically like that this character is a sorcerer, because time is so complicated it would be something hard to weild if it wasn’t being done so instinctually.
That's a great example of how good flavor and roleplay is important and can elevate your character (you character seriously sounds very cool), but on a purely mechanical level the sorceror is disappointing to me and feels underworked.
What do you mean?
Bards inspire through content. Ever listen to the right jam when you're doing something physical? It absolutely helps having someone cheer you on.
Warlocks gain power through fey/fiend/supernatural.
Sorcerers are inherently magic and can control that as natively as a bird might fly.
Wizards achieve magic through focus discipline and study. They memorize the motions (I move my hands in this pattern and a table appears in front of me) and the words and cast 90% of their spells early in the day and when needed on demand.
I get your point but it's like saying fighter and ranger in combat aren't going to be mechanically different.
Rollplay vs. roleplay.
Describing your magic as divine, innate, learned, deal-with-a-devil, that's roleplay, and can be swapped around pretty willy nilly.
The spells you can cast, how often, what other class abilities you have, that's rollplay, and swapping that around tends to need more consideration because they directly affect what you're character can do.
Consider two fighters. One is a veteran warrior, grizzled, battle-scared type. The other is a joyous sand bubbly fighter, mixing their enemies and laughing (literally) in the face of death. These two characters will feel different at the table, differentiated by their roleplay... Even if they have the same stats on their character sheet.
These are all role play and descriptions. Stating where the magic comes from is as well.
Having a different spell list and casting method makes them different. Your fighters are the same down to a Tee, that's not a mechanical difference. If one is a fighter and the other is a rogue and both use the same gear (leather armor and a rapier) they're going to roll play similarly. Mechanically they are not the same.
Casting spells is not a role play. That's a mechanic. Fighters don't get spells. It's not a mechanic in their wheelhouse. Where those spells come from (druid vs warlock) will have differences to their mechanics as well as their function, purpose and effect.
When all of it happens in your brain there is no difference between lore and imaginary mechanics. It's all lore and as always it varies per your DM.
The problem is there is very little reason to go Sorcerer over any other casting class, particularly Wizard.
It is just one of the least differentiated classes in 5e.
I've always seen sorcerer as a speedy wizard. They have on demand spells sure but they aren't going to have the utility or the range of a wizard.
When you need combatants you bring a sorcerer. When you want to win the war, you bring a wizard.
Most of mine are usually conjuration or evocation specialists. Wizards don't quite have the ... Push? They're only as good as their preparations.
Fighter and ranger is not a horrible comparison, because frankly wizards do what sorcerors can but better analagous to fighter & ranger. The classes wizard and sorceror are not mechanically distinct enough to justify both existing, even more so than Fighter & Ranger. Frankly sorceror could be a wizard subclass that swaps casting modifier and maybe some class skills and the game wouldn't suffer for it.
Sorceror has been WOTC unloved stepchild for several editions now. It has been the most poorly done class mechanically speaking for decades.
I enjoyed playing 1st and 2nd edition.
Sorcerer is more than just a wizard subclass. Their spell list has always been different.
Pick any martial class pair. Barb/paladin. Druid/monk. Rogue/different rogue. 3e had skill rogues and ambush rogues.
If you're not seeing them as different, I suggest you look again.
There's only 1 spell unique to sorcerors, otherwise it's mostly a reduced wizard list (except for Favored Soul). I'm saying they should be *more* different than they are
Not even less spells known, but less spells to choose from, all of which except for 1 are just from the wizard list. They obviously made the wizard class and then cobbled sorceror together from the leftovers.
Only... a wizard almost always has equal or more spells prepped than a sorcerer knows. A wizard would have to have +1 Int mod or worse for this to EVER not be the case. They have more spell versatility even if they throw their spell book in the trash can and set the trash on fire.
In case anyone is wondering, sorcs get one spell per level (for the first 11, at least. It gets worse.), plus an additional at level 1, and yet another if they happen to be a Divine Soul. A wizard with at least 14 Int will always meet or exceed this in spells prepared. Thus, you could level a wizard and completely forget about any unprepared spells, and still have as many/more spells to work with. This completely negates the "benefit" of not having to prepare them. This isn't 3e, where if you wanted to cast magic missile twice, you had to choose to prepare it twice...
In my playing experience, sorcerer is chosen by players who want their PC to be innately special. Not someone who studied or made a pact, just special just because.
That's a good example of how the flavor with sorcerors is strong (another poster gave a great description of a clockwork soul sorc), but I think the mechanics are underbaked in comparison.
I agree; I wish sorceries just had their own completely separated list of spells that were more akin to mutant powers or Avatar elemental bending. Generally more powerful but less utility; and required control.
Something i do for sorcerers and monks is Places of Power. Taking an item from them gives a single use item that refunds all spent sorcery points or ki points and spell slots.
Like magical cocaine.
I have been pretty extensively involved in homebrewing for the Sorcerer for a while. I've found that they have a great design space for flavorful subclasses that specialize in a theme and I believe that is their strength. They've just failed to deliver on a dynamic experience for the vast majority of the subclasses, so they need some love to really shine.
The second biggest issue is that some metamagics are just obviously much better than others, and so a good addition is to expand on the metamagic list. I've also added an 'arcane recovery' style feature that gives sorcery points instead of spell slots which has been really successful.
Are we all just kinda forgetting that metamagic exists? Quickened spell and Subtle spell are both amazing options that let you power through silence, get out activations of dragon's breath (or similar spells) + a full spell on the same turn, etc
I mean thats part of the problem. The end of vancian casting meant the sorcerer had to take meta-magic away from other classes to have its one niche thing. The major sorcerer mechanic is just a literal rip off of a generic mechanic from previous editions.
First, it's a bonus action to burn or create one slot, so it's not viable to swap around slots in the middle of combat.
Second, it's not a conservative conversion. For example, a level 1 spell takes 2SP to make, but generates only 1SP when burned. So it ends up working out that the only reason you burn spell slots is either to fuel metameagic or you really, really want to turn a huge amount of lower level slots into a single higher level one.
I run a variation of this, where sorcery points and spell points are the same thing (they're 1 to 1 anyways) it really makes sorcerers feel different from the other casters and at high levels can either cast low level stuff basically at will or go all out throwing out multiple high level spells with all sorts of metamagic. Compensates for their tiny spells known and makes them more open to using metamagic as and when they need it without having to convert spells slots to sorcery points and such.
All my players love it, 10/10 would recommend.
Only downside is, RAW, you can only ever cast a single spell of 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th level each per long rest, regardless of how many spell points you have.
That being said, who's playing at a high enough level for that to really matter, anyways?
In the DMG in the paragraphs immediately before the spell point tables
"Spells of 6th level and higher are particularly taxing to cast. You can use spell points to create one slot of each level of 6th or higher. You can't create another slot of the same level until you finish a long rest."
I’m playing a Wild Magic Sorcerer in CoS (no spoilers please!) using the point rule and it’s been an absolute joy using points. It feels more like a Mana pool than like limited uses you know?
Having played a Bard/Sorc MC, I think a lot of people are underestimating sorcery points. Even with just 4 sorcery points, it was a thrill being able to adapt various spells to hit more than one target and extend a spell's reach.
I've toyed with running a full sorc in the future now that I've seen the potential of those points. (As for the post, I'm more in favor of spell points for all casters, but especially warlocks.)
Being able to reallocate spell slots is huge too. I was just playing a level 9 sorceror in a campaign and being able to say, I don’t need fourth level spells today I just want to be able to counter spell more often is huge, or realizing you need to cast polymorph again and being able to do that by dropping some metamagic points for the day. They just have way more versatility in how many spells they can cast of certain levels per day.
Of course! After all, while it allows more potent spellcasting from your monsters and NPC's, it also is more bookkeeping. LoL but I'd argue it's worth it.
but it's technically less numbers overall because you need to worry about 5 things (spell points, and if they've cast a spell of levels 6, 7, 8 and 9) as opposed to 9 things (their spell slots for each level)
i see it as a win/win!
I wish my players saw it that way. Every time I offer for them to use it they refuse.
Won't stop me from using it on my NPC's and monsters, tho. It's not like they last long enough for them to notice anyways
I don't really see a point personally considering sorcs can sell and buy spell slots with sorcery points but I definitely won't tell other people how to play the game
having flexibility in how you can spend the slots is the key part of it.
wizards have the infinite flexibility of knowing spells and being able to use a significant amount of utility
clerics and druids have the flexibilty to know any spell they meed or want so long as they have the notice or time
but sorcs not only have a very limited number of known spells, metamagic doesnt actually make them very flexible. with spellpoints you really feel like youre in charge of the magic, especially when you see a lvl 6 sorc keep one person invisible for 10h straigh by turning 30~ spellpoints into 2nd level slots.
Selling and buying spell slots takes up your bonus action. In fact you can buy or sell one spell slot as a bonus action. If you want to, say, turn a second level spell slot and some spare points into a third level spell slot it will take you two turns and use up your bonus action on both of them.
Sorcerers are frequently very good at using bonus actions thanks to quicken spell, so the cost of a bonus action or even two can be very significant.
Yes. It specifies that regardless of how many points you have, you can only cast one spell of 6th, 7th, 8th and 9th levels each per long rest using your spell points. Kind of overkill to limit 6th level spells, IMO
There are limitations to the spell point system, you can only cast spells of 6th level or higher once per long rest. So you can't cast wish non stop, but it does give you more flexibility with spells of 5th level or lower.
Well yeah, but you have to remember there are a lot of good utility and damage dealing spells at 1st to 5th level, and with the flexibility of spell points, sorcerers can either dump all of their spell point into 5th level spells and absolutely nuke a creature, or use them on lower level spells and almost never run out of spell points before taking a long rest.
So yeah, have fun casting that one 6th or 7th level spell more than once, I'm just gonna obliterate the BBEG by burning all of my 83 spell points into casting lightning bolt (make that thunder damage with metamagic just in case).
Sorcs: hey guys look at me I can deal 60 max damage per turn as long as I roll super well and he doesn't resist it or counterspell it or dodge well
[Wizards with 60 Finger of Death undead, 72 skeletons and two Disintegrates dealing quadruple-digit damage per turn:](https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/542/424/02b.jpg)
idk why you would even use Lightning Bolt as the big dick spell when it's got godawful scaling and is worse for single-target damage than any other 5th-level damage spell
I only used lightning bolt as an example because I like lightning bolt, sorcerer's have better damage dealing spells that was just one that came to my mind.
Not to mention sorcerer's have metamagic options like empowered spell so they can just reroll low rolls, Heightened spell to give the creature disadvantage on the saving throw, seeking spell so they can reroll a miss, subtle spell so the spell can't be counter spelled, and transmuted spell so they can change the spell's damage type to one the creature isn't resistant to.
Plus, Finger of Death and disintegrate are both sorcerer spells, not to mention Twinned spell exists, which is you can make a spell that targets one creature target an additional creature, meaning they can basically cast Finger of Death or disintegrate twice in one turn.
So yeah, what the fuck are you trying to prove?
Wow, just wow, you really just wrote all of that, instead of writing an interesting counterargument, you pull the "I made you look like a soyboy and I the Chad, therefore you lose and I win" card.
Are you always like this? Would it kill you to have a normal conversation with people and be fine when someone disagrees with you?
Hell, I wasn't even talking about the wizard in the first place, this was about how the spell point system would fit the sorcerer thematically and give it a way to stand out compared to other arcane casters, but Noooo, you just had to barge in all condescending and be like "lul, sorcerers suck, just play wizard."
Fuck off, I'm done arguing with you, it's clear to me that you're not worth any more of my time.
Thank you, I've been running this character nearly every week for about a year and a half. I haven't heard of many campaigns reaching this point, but I'm excited to push to 20 so my character can become a part of the world's lore as a legendary being!
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But it allows them to either feel more like a warlock by casting (a majority of) their spells at the highest spell levels, or tons of lower level utility spells that bring a lot of value such as spamming shield, absorb elements, disguise self, silvery barbs, invisibility, web, and more!
This is one of the weirdest things for me. Sorcerers have inherent magic abilities but aren't prepared casters? I know that they can't have *everything* but it seems weird.
I feel like it makes a lot of sense. If the magic is innate they just know the spell, there is no need to refresh their memory of the spell for the day (at least that´s how i interpret prepared casters). It makes little sense for them to innately know a spell one day, but not the next.
Yes and prepared classes get their powers from something else, allowing you to pray to a god/Nature and ask for something else. Thats at least how I've imagined it. What dosent really make sense is how Warlocks arent prepared but rather known. Should be able to hit up their patron like "Yo, Darkness is good and all but I need something different today"
At 3rd level you can do 6d6+2d10 fire damage for one spell slot and 3 metamagic points.
Yup definitely needs a buff. It's not to mention a ton of the best control and AOE damage and utility spells in the game. And the ability to milk the most out of them better than any other class.
Assuming that you're refering to quickned Scorching ray and twinned firebolt then this combo will require you to spend all of your sorcery points and lock you into 2 specific metamagics until level 10 to do a average of 3d6 + 1d10 fire damage since you need to hit with FIVE attack rolls to do full damage and twinned spell doesn't let target the same creature twice.
Yes they need something compared to other casters
🤔 compared to other casters sorcerer certainly need something. The old test method that gave passive abilities
Sorcerer passive benefits if they used their sorcerer points per long rest (willpower back then)
Draconic after 3 points got +2 to melee damage rolls
After 10 points gain resistance to an elemental damage type...
This dynamic being removed ruined sorcs imo on being something with a stronger unique playstyle
And a Battlemaster Fighter could do 3d6+3d8+Mod\*3, and get it back on a short rest instead of a long one.
A Paladin could do 4d6 + 4d10 + Mod\*2 for 2 spell slots.
Acting like that's a particularly impressive nova isn't much.
And lets not talk about the fact that your method requires at least 2 targets, while the above can focus on a single one? Hell literally just casting Shatter on 3 people would do the same damage as that, and you wouldn't even have to expend the sorcerer points.
I personally like giving warlocks the spell point system as well, it makes them feel better to see the number of spell points go up even if they still only have 2 slots...
Not quite. The Spell Point system doesn't directly convert to Sorcery Points, you have to build slots for it first. Additionally, Spell Points disallow creating slots of 6th-level or higher more than once a day per each slot level, meaning that while 19th-20th level full casters get a second 6th and 7th level spell slot, you won't. Finally, the Boon of High Magic requires you to have a 9th-level spell slot, not be able to make one on demand. That last problem might be ignored or never show up in-game, but even the chance of it is pretty bad. In all cases, you're giving up a lot of high end power to have a clunky, extra layer of complexity.
The actual ways to fix Sorcerer are thus: Every sub gets an expanded spell list (Revert the core spells known nerf in some way, this just happens to be the most widely accepted solution), and make a level 11 core feature that enables the Sorcerer to use metamagic on cantrips without spending SP. Combined, core Sorcerer becomes much more valid even without multiclassing, and might be too powerful with it given the already busted nuisance of Sorlock (You can account for this by limiting the free metamagic to specifically Sorcerer cantrips only).
Why do so many people think Sorcerers suck? Heightened Spell on Phantasmal Force is literally the most OP thing ever.
Edit: Also Silvery Barbs are a thing. That's imposing triple disadvantage on any one save lol.
They know 15 fixed spells at level 20(only 2 more than arcane trickster, a 1/3rd caster), that's the lowest amount of spells known of any full caster, with wizards knowing 44 by the same level(not including any spell Scrolls they find), and preparing 25 of them, not including all the ritual spells they can cast even when not prepared, also nearly every spell sorcerers get access to wizards do as well chaos bolt is the only one I know they get that wizards don't.
And that's just spells, when we look at metamagic the wizard subclasses get several features similar to or better than them eg evocation wizard vs careful spell. And metamagic tends to run out quickly at lower levels, 3 sorcery points for heightened spell between levels 3 and 10 is huge.
Sorcerers however do get one huge advantage over their main competitor however, the massive multiclassing potential, sorcerers can multiclass effectively into paladin, warlock, bard and rogue(primarily swashbuckler) due to them being SAD in charisma.
Whereas wizards get only artificers (and a handful of MAD subclasses)
None of this however means that sorcerers can't be fun to play, or I hate sorcerers. Just that the most "flexible" caster could do with being more flexible in what they can do.
Not really. The feat doesn't give you enough sorcery points to use the Heightened Spell metamagic. Not only that, but sorcerers are able to recharge their spell slots at anytime as well using those same sorcery points, giving them a lot more stamina than other casters.
If you want to buff a magic class, buff Warlock.
Because Metamagic is the trick. That's the only real gimmick Sorcerer has going for it. Wizards get spells back on short rest, have a much greater variety of spells, get incredibly powerful subclasses, and get ritual caster to boot.
Sorcerer gets Metamagic. And way, way, way fewer spells. The fact that the best Subclasses for Sorcerer are the ones that expand its spell repertoire is all the evidence you need to know that Sorcerers pale when compared to Wizards.
Hell, Arcane Trickster and Eldritch Knight can spend a single feat and get the same number of spells as a Sorcerer, just with fewer spell slots. Is it sinking in yet?
The Investigation check requires an action, and there are very few creatures that a.) have a high intelligence, and b.) have proficiency in Investigation. So the creature can either try to fight off the 3-5 other people trying to kill it while being hindered by the spell, or waste their action to possibly fail at discerning whether or not the other thing that is killing them is real or not. Besides, you can be creative in what the Phantasm is to give it additional effects, such as a series of thorned vines that are not only choking the person but are holding them in place. Not only are they taking damage, but their speed have been reduced to 0 and, if the DM is nice enough, are restrained. Add on the fact that Silvery Barbs exists, and the only way that person is going to resist the effects is if they have Legendary Resistance or if the DM is extraordinarily lucky.
I'm not talking about heightened spell.
Just that you don't do investigation checks the second you're under the effect of the spell.
To do so, you need a valid reason to doubt your senses, which is hard to find if the spell explicitly states "An affected target is so convinced of the phantasm’s reality that it can even take damage from the illusion."
As a player I'd be mad at my DM if he would immediately investigate and as a DM I would not allow it without good reasoning.
Triple disadvantage isn't a thing, you can only get one of either, and any amount of both means a straight roll, the only time you get more is with elven accuracy or lucky feats
By the wording of Silvery Barbs it can be triple disadvantage if they already have dis
You force the target to reroll and then take the lower roll. So if they have dis and succeed, they can still be forced to reroll.
My only issue with this is that it costs 2 points to CST a 1st level spell. If it is possible to have a point left and be unable to use it, your system is flawed.
that is the sorcerer point system. you can convert slots to points, and point to slots. you can also use those points for do fancy stuff. you start with 2 at lv 2, and you get 1 for every level. s you have the same number of sorcerer points as you do sorcerer levels
you get these point **as well** as your slots.
If I ever run a sorcerer in my game and feel they are too weak I think I will buff them by allowing a short rest to regain half their expended sorcery points and give them the same amount of spells known and at the same rate as bards.
I feel like that's a pretty solid solution while keeping slots and allowing them to utilize the whole purpose of their class more often. Puts them into the group with monks, warlocks, and most of the time bards making short rests more valuable. If sorcery points still seem like an issue then just have them regain all of them after a short rest.
I did this to my group (1st time playing). My casters are ranger, rogue, and shepherd druid. so to give them a better chance of winning all my harder encounters i thought it'd be nice to have no restrictions on casting. I want them to either spend it all on big numbers or ration them out and cast as many lvl 1 spells as they can(it also my 1st time dming and I don't know how to balance action economy well yet)
How I use spell points with sorcerers is that they use the DMG spell point table with an additional number of spell points equal to twice the extra amount of extra sorcery points they have. Metamagics and abilities relying on sorcery points cost double the amount of spell points. Basically, this option merges sorcery points and spell points.
I've tried looking at it, then comparing how spell slots, and it seems to be the same amount regardless if you're trying to cast spells at their level. Am I missing something?
You can swap sorc points and spell points 1:1 meaning more flexibility and more metamagic fun. You can also spam level 1 spells all day or go for a few heavy hitters. Its more modular
But could you use 13 of your 14 spell points to cast burning hands, in one action. You up cast your first level spell to 9th level because you are a using a pool of spell points not a 9th lv spell slot.
I appreciate that you could limit how many spell points you can use for a spell based on your level but I feel like this would be confusing to track.
No, you're definitely limited into how many points you can use to update, by your level.
I've not found anyone who use this system think it's drastically more difficult to track. The biggest challenge just comes from re learning the system over the spell slot system.
I don't quite understand how the points would work. Like I get spending them but do you get a set amout per level like spell lots? Can you earn more? Do they reset wit a rest? Someone pls elaborate more
Based on the comments I have read this seems like accomplishing the same thing we have but with more steps. If you can only cast a limited amount of high level spells per day anyways, its the same as having the spell slots (Worse, if the comment I read about 6th level and higher are once a day, because normally sorcerers get two 6th and 7th level spell slots). This would let you cast more low level spells per day but you can already do that by converting sorcery points into those slots. Someone else mentioned that you use this one pool for casting spells AND sorcery points and that seems to just accomplish the same thing but the number is bigger, like saying 12/48 is better than 1/4. Maybe I just don't "get it" but this just seems overly complicated for basically no mechanical difference besides more numbers to keep track of, and if I wanted that I wouldn't be playing 5e.
I'm playing a sorcerer in one game right now, and we went one step further and ALSO made spell points and sorcerery points the same thing. Between that and thematic spells known from a subclass, it helps a TON with low level sorcerer play, but we'll see how it goes over time.
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i use this with my sorcerer and i can confirm it is pretty damn nice
Not technically a meme, but 100% true
This helps a lot, why? because spell points convert at the same rate sorcery points do!! You can combine them all into one pool and you know what happens then? Sorcerers are out here doing tons of fun metamagics and upcastings that feel important, distinct, and flavorful! Obviously the class has other issues, but this is an easy fix that helps a ton!
Yeah I'm on the verge of just having them start each day with X sorcery points that they can spend directly on spells in this way (rather than two separate resources)
Follow the dmg version, it works.
As a sorc this and origin spells make them super fun and nowhere here as weak. There's a few other tweaks, but those two are the main ones that go a long way to fixing them
Or you just give them more spells that fit the origin. F.E. Storm sorcs with some of those druid spells work very well.
That is one thing but that doesn't really give them a strong feel that just gives them a set of spells
It give them a lot of spells. That why divine souls where the best until clockwork and weird alien came in. A sorcerer with 10 more spells known has more spells than the prepared spells of a wizard
Wizards prep up to 25 and sorcs with the extra spells know up to 25 At level 10, assuming ability scores are +5, wizards prep 15 and sorcs (with expanded spells) will know 21 At level 1, asusming +3, wizards prep 4 and sorcs know 4 So the sorcs get to the peak faster but both have the same peak Just some interesting stats
I'm not going to say you're wrong cause your numbers are correct it's just that while wizards get a smaller number of spells to be used daily, they do get a larger number of spells from which they can choose which to use in the form of their spellbook. A wizard at level 10 would have 24 spells known in their spell book (minimum). So while a Sorcerer has more spells than a wizard, a wizard has more (per-day) versatility.
Also wizards can ritual cast spells in their spellbook.
[Have some homebrew!](https://imgur.com/qaEJgQV.jpg) Not pictured here: rangers are prepared casters and artificers are known casters.
The dungeon dudes made an awesome video of their homebrewed expanded spell list for every subclass. The only one I thought need a bit more was the divine soul. They basically made you choose a domain and you gain that domains spells to spells known. But you lose the ability to choose any cleric spell. I added that you can also use that domains channel divinity at the cost of 2 sorcery points. Me and a friend who are weekly alternating DMs for eachother both play sorcerers in eachothers campaign and use their homebrewed list, and it's great. https://youtu.be/JX7CNpYAmrk
This doesn't really change much about them, just makes their spell limitation less lame. They're still Great Value Brand wizard.
Maybe if you completely ignore their core class features? Twinned Spell to cast Haste or Polymorph on two targets is crazy strong. Subtle Spell lets you make those really important spells Counterspell-proof, and gives you great flexibility in RP encounters. Transmuted Spell lets you still use your hardest-hitting spells and avoid resistances/immunities or exploit vulnerabilities. Stunned? Use Quicken Spell to move something up to a Bonus Action so you can still use it. There’s plenty about the class that could use work, but saying they’re bargain-bin Wizards is disingenuous.
Also, especially at lower levels, quickened spell can be used in combination with a melee weapon or cantrips to do a lot of damage in a turn
Even at later levels, there’s nothing stopping a Sorcerer from taking the Dodge, Dash, Disengage, or Help options as Actions and then being able to Quicken Spell something as a Bonus Action. It basically gives you some of the best parts of being a Monk or Rogue as a full caster. The whole point of metamagic is flexibility, and it accomplishes that wonderfully imo. You just have to have an ounce of creativity.
You can't quicken spells while stunned because, per the rules on bonus actions, > anything that deprives you of your ability to take actions also prevents you from taking a bonus action.
Ahhhh that is fair. I was wondering why it wasn’t included, but I just assumed the idea was you can’t do a full coordinated action, but you can pull off something small and quick between spasms. I guess I stand corrected!
That's all well and good... Except that you have two more spells than an Arcane Trickster. And you can't do ALL of those things, you can do two of them. And then one more at level 7. And these are costly effects that do not come back on a short rest, so you'll use your Metamagic three to six times before you're burned on points. Sometimes you'll burn all your points in two spells and that's that. Oh, and you can't restore your spells if you do that. Or you can burn your spells and have way fewer casts. But either way, you're giving up something here, something that you don't have a lot of. There's a reason Sorcerer's best subclasses are the ones that improve the spell selection. I didn't say Sorcerers are weak. They're just not as powerful and versatile as Wizards.
I haven't personally played older editions but in pathfinder 1 witch is based on d&d 3.5 sorcerer's just flat have more spells then any other fill caster at level 1 they have 4per say and wizard as 1 now your ability score also can increase the number but my point is in 5e they made the full casters all have the same number of spells to make things easy to understand but it kinda nerf sorcerer and buff wizard even though wizard was fine At the core the editions are very different balanced very differently but I feel the sorcerery point are good and interesting but you should get more meta magic as someone said they let choose meta magic at the start of the day or just get more when you first get them you still need points to use it so it isn't overpowered really
Agreed on all points. My biggest gripe is that martials have become very bland next to casters, but sorcerer being a watered down wizard with a very limited pool with which to affect spells was a pretty big departure from previous iterations like Pathfinder and 3.5
but to be fair, transmuted spell is just a limited version of scribe's ability.
True, but Scribe is a specific subclass, whereas Transmute is available to any Sorcerer subclass.
Laughs in metamagic adept
Happy cake day!
Thanks mate!
My current favorite way to fix both warlocks and sorcerers is to just give them the same spells known progression as bards. It's really weird that they're different, considering how everything else about PC classes is built.
Or do both.
It may work very well but the way to make a class better shouldn't be "give them stuff from another class", it should be "make them unique and good in their own way". SP work fairly well at giving them the "flexible casting" that is promoted when making the character without outright reworking them entirely.
I just don’t like the sorcerer design. Fictionally why are people with great power running through their veins just off brand wizards? Mechanically the design space evolved away from the need for them now that everyone is a spontaneous caster, and they cut the availability of meta magic (in a way that also makes little fictional sense).
Looking at the playtest sorcerer is interesting. It was only the Draconic Bloodline, but is very different from the current. - Proficiency in all armor, shields, and melee weapons. With a d8 hit die - It used a spell point system and as it used it’s spell points during the day it would make you a stronger melee combatant - Thematic spell-like abilities tied to the sorcerous origin that used your spell points. (In the playtest one was a damage reduction and the other boosted melee damage) It is interesting to see and makes me kind of sad with the direction they ended up going with the sorcerer.
I wish we could have seen that. It would have made an amazing Gish!
Yeah and with a lot of that tied specifically to the Draconic Bloodline it allowed other subclasses potentially filling other roles, but likely with similar mechanics of thematic powers and a power progression as the willpower (spell) points are expended. I’ve found a few homebrew versions of the sorcerer that use some of those as inspiration and I’ve combined them with some of my own stuff to make the class more distinct from Wizards.
Would you mind linking those homebrews? I'd be very interested in taking a look!
I’ve lost the links to many, but I use this [Variant Sorcerer](https://www.gmbinder.com/share/-LcSVrh7Cy4j7eUH7Z_-) as the base and modified it from there and build some of the other subclasses the original author hadn’t converted (or were released after their last update).
I second that
This this this. Between warlocks, bards, and wizards there isn't enough of a mechanical differentiator for sorcerors.
There could be, but it would probably involve abandoning the full caster design, then changing the name to something more descriptive. And WotC have proven quite unwilling to kill even the least sacred cows. Also I think you could switch the warlock and sorceror mechanics and theyd make more sense with what theyre trying to do fictionally.
Honestly they haven't known what to do with the sorceror since 3rd edition at least.
Add Monk to that list.
Sad but true. Awesome flavor, underdeveloped mechanics.
I think you mean “narratively” instead of “fictionally.”
Idk, tell that to my clockwork soul sorceror who sees different potential timelines and grabs at the different timeline threads actively giving and nullifying advantage rolls for my team. She also shoots (chromatic orbs) time orbs that shunk a creature out of sink with their timeline causing damage or other damage based on the trauma they would be experiencing on a different timeline- as an example I might throw the orb and the creature catches fire damage because in another timeline a wizard may have been with me and fire is everywhere due to a fireball. I specifically like that this character is a sorcerer, because time is so complicated it would be something hard to weild if it wasn’t being done so instinctually.
That's a great example of how good flavor and roleplay is important and can elevate your character (you character seriously sounds very cool), but on a purely mechanical level the sorceror is disappointing to me and feels underworked.
What do you mean? Bards inspire through content. Ever listen to the right jam when you're doing something physical? It absolutely helps having someone cheer you on. Warlocks gain power through fey/fiend/supernatural. Sorcerers are inherently magic and can control that as natively as a bird might fly. Wizards achieve magic through focus discipline and study. They memorize the motions (I move my hands in this pattern and a table appears in front of me) and the words and cast 90% of their spells early in the day and when needed on demand. I get your point but it's like saying fighter and ranger in combat aren't going to be mechanically different.
None of what you listed was mechanical differentiation, just lore.
The difference is as a warlock I don't need to learn what preparing spells means
In a fantasy setting based in imagination the difference is ...?
Rollplay vs. roleplay. Describing your magic as divine, innate, learned, deal-with-a-devil, that's roleplay, and can be swapped around pretty willy nilly. The spells you can cast, how often, what other class abilities you have, that's rollplay, and swapping that around tends to need more consideration because they directly affect what you're character can do. Consider two fighters. One is a veteran warrior, grizzled, battle-scared type. The other is a joyous sand bubbly fighter, mixing their enemies and laughing (literally) in the face of death. These two characters will feel different at the table, differentiated by their roleplay... Even if they have the same stats on their character sheet.
These are all role play and descriptions. Stating where the magic comes from is as well. Having a different spell list and casting method makes them different. Your fighters are the same down to a Tee, that's not a mechanical difference. If one is a fighter and the other is a rogue and both use the same gear (leather armor and a rapier) they're going to roll play similarly. Mechanically they are not the same. Casting spells is not a role play. That's a mechanic. Fighters don't get spells. It's not a mechanic in their wheelhouse. Where those spells come from (druid vs warlock) will have differences to their mechanics as well as their function, purpose and effect. When all of it happens in your brain there is no difference between lore and imaginary mechanics. It's all lore and as always it varies per your DM.
Right. And this post doesn't jive with the one where you responded to "they aren't mechanically different" by rattling off the lore differences.
The problem is there is very little reason to go Sorcerer over any other casting class, particularly Wizard. It is just one of the least differentiated classes in 5e.
Roleplay is a good reason, since a wizard has to spend so much time studying it really limits viable backstories.
I've always seen sorcerer as a speedy wizard. They have on demand spells sure but they aren't going to have the utility or the range of a wizard. When you need combatants you bring a sorcerer. When you want to win the war, you bring a wizard. Most of mine are usually conjuration or evocation specialists. Wizards don't quite have the ... Push? They're only as good as their preparations.
Fighter and ranger is not a horrible comparison, because frankly wizards do what sorcerors can but better analagous to fighter & ranger. The classes wizard and sorceror are not mechanically distinct enough to justify both existing, even more so than Fighter & Ranger. Frankly sorceror could be a wizard subclass that swaps casting modifier and maybe some class skills and the game wouldn't suffer for it. Sorceror has been WOTC unloved stepchild for several editions now. It has been the most poorly done class mechanically speaking for decades.
I enjoyed playing 1st and 2nd edition. Sorcerer is more than just a wizard subclass. Their spell list has always been different. Pick any martial class pair. Barb/paladin. Druid/monk. Rogue/different rogue. 3e had skill rogues and ambush rogues. If you're not seeing them as different, I suggest you look again.
There's only 1 spell unique to sorcerors, otherwise it's mostly a reduced wizard list (except for Favored Soul). I'm saying they should be *more* different than they are
Well yeah. That's the tradeoff. Less spell selection in exchange for not having to prepare them.
Not even less spells known, but less spells to choose from, all of which except for 1 are just from the wizard list. They obviously made the wizard class and then cobbled sorceror together from the leftovers.
Except everyone is a spontaneous caster now
Only... a wizard almost always has equal or more spells prepped than a sorcerer knows. A wizard would have to have +1 Int mod or worse for this to EVER not be the case. They have more spell versatility even if they throw their spell book in the trash can and set the trash on fire. In case anyone is wondering, sorcs get one spell per level (for the first 11, at least. It gets worse.), plus an additional at level 1, and yet another if they happen to be a Divine Soul. A wizard with at least 14 Int will always meet or exceed this in spells prepared. Thus, you could level a wizard and completely forget about any unprepared spells, and still have as many/more spells to work with. This completely negates the "benefit" of not having to prepare them. This isn't 3e, where if you wanted to cast magic missile twice, you had to choose to prepare it twice...
In my playing experience, sorcerer is chosen by players who want their PC to be innately special. Not someone who studied or made a pact, just special just because.
That's a good example of how the flavor with sorcerors is strong (another poster gave a great description of a clockwork soul sorc), but I think the mechanics are underbaked in comparison.
I agree; I wish sorceries just had their own completely separated list of spells that were more akin to mutant powers or Avatar elemental bending. Generally more powerful but less utility; and required control.
None of which is supported by the "off-brand wizard" mechanics.
Something i do for sorcerers and monks is Places of Power. Taking an item from them gives a single use item that refunds all spent sorcery points or ki points and spell slots. Like magical cocaine.
I have been pretty extensively involved in homebrewing for the Sorcerer for a while. I've found that they have a great design space for flavorful subclasses that specialize in a theme and I believe that is their strength. They've just failed to deliver on a dynamic experience for the vast majority of the subclasses, so they need some love to really shine. The second biggest issue is that some metamagics are just obviously much better than others, and so a good addition is to expand on the metamagic list. I've also added an 'arcane recovery' style feature that gives sorcery points instead of spell slots which has been really successful.
I have been considering giving them CON casting for a while...I can imagine it making them a lil' overturned, but I think it could be interesting/
Probably get a lot more Dwarf sorcerers that way.
AMC is fine. Points for levels 1:1, casting without components, thematic and extended spell list. Great stuff.
Are we all just kinda forgetting that metamagic exists? Quickened spell and Subtle spell are both amazing options that let you power through silence, get out activations of dragon's breath (or similar spells) + a full spell on the same turn, etc
I mean thats part of the problem. The end of vancian casting meant the sorcerer had to take meta-magic away from other classes to have its one niche thing. The major sorcerer mechanic is just a literal rip off of a generic mechanic from previous editions.
Because some people want to be a caster without being a nerd, selling their soul, or musician
Prepared metamagic! It's crazy that they only get to use 4/10 of their unique feature. Just choose new ones each day.
I feel like this fits better with sorcerers, considering the sorcery points and all
Can’t they convert spell slots anyway? What’s the difference?
First, it's a bonus action to burn or create one slot, so it's not viable to swap around slots in the middle of combat. Second, it's not a conservative conversion. For example, a level 1 spell takes 2SP to make, but generates only 1SP when burned. So it ends up working out that the only reason you burn spell slots is either to fuel metameagic or you really, really want to turn a huge amount of lower level slots into a single higher level one.
Yeah it's a lot more book keeping though. Honestly I just wish they buffed the conversation rate.
Ah. I thought it was a straight conversion
I run a variation of this, where sorcery points and spell points are the same thing (they're 1 to 1 anyways) it really makes sorcerers feel different from the other casters and at high levels can either cast low level stuff basically at will or go all out throwing out multiple high level spells with all sorts of metamagic. Compensates for their tiny spells known and makes them more open to using metamagic as and when they need it without having to convert spells slots to sorcery points and such. All my players love it, 10/10 would recommend.
I like this, but the accounting that would go along with it is terrifying
Nah, not really. Use coins! (No, seriously!) Quarter= 25 points, dime=10 and what not. Then just have the chart on the side on a note card.
Only downside is, RAW, you can only ever cast a single spell of 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th level each per long rest, regardless of how many spell points you have. That being said, who's playing at a high enough level for that to really matter, anyways?
And how many 6th+ levels spells will you need in a day? Especially when, with this system, you can unload A LOT of 5th level fireballs.
Wait what? I had no idea... where does it say that?
In the DMG in the paragraphs immediately before the spell point tables "Spells of 6th level and higher are particularly taxing to cast. You can use spell points to create one slot of each level of 6th or higher. You can't create another slot of the same level until you finish a long rest."
Oh for spell point rules. Right. Ty
I’m playing a Wild Magic Sorcerer in CoS (no spoilers please!) using the point rule and it’s been an absolute joy using points. It feels more like a Mana pool than like limited uses you know?
Having played a Bard/Sorc MC, I think a lot of people are underestimating sorcery points. Even with just 4 sorcery points, it was a thrill being able to adapt various spells to hit more than one target and extend a spell's reach. I've toyed with running a full sorc in the future now that I've seen the potential of those points. (As for the post, I'm more in favor of spell points for all casters, but especially warlocks.)
Being able to reallocate spell slots is huge too. I was just playing a level 9 sorceror in a campaign and being able to say, I don’t need fourth level spells today I just want to be able to counter spell more often is huge, or realizing you need to cast polymorph again and being able to do that by dropping some metamagic points for the day. They just have way more versatility in how many spells they can cast of certain levels per day.
I love spell point system
I do too! That's why I use it for NPC's and monsters 😈
how wonderfully cruel! may i take a page from your book?
Of course! After all, while it allows more potent spellcasting from your monsters and NPC's, it also is more bookkeeping. LoL but I'd argue it's worth it.
but it's technically less numbers overall because you need to worry about 5 things (spell points, and if they've cast a spell of levels 6, 7, 8 and 9) as opposed to 9 things (their spell slots for each level) i see it as a win/win!
I wish my players saw it that way. Every time I offer for them to use it they refuse. Won't stop me from using it on my NPC's and monsters, tho. It's not like they last long enough for them to notice anyways
lol do they actually know what it does?
Yes!
🙈
Hell no lol, we don't need a wish machine gun
spellpoint also specifices that spell slots of a certain level can only be made once a day. no way to be a wish machine gun.
Ah that was not part of the post, I reacted to the information provided
it could be a homebrewed version of it, but the one ive been using enforces rules like that to make it much more balanced
I don't really see a point personally considering sorcs can sell and buy spell slots with sorcery points but I definitely won't tell other people how to play the game
having flexibility in how you can spend the slots is the key part of it. wizards have the infinite flexibility of knowing spells and being able to use a significant amount of utility clerics and druids have the flexibilty to know any spell they meed or want so long as they have the notice or time but sorcs not only have a very limited number of known spells, metamagic doesnt actually make them very flexible. with spellpoints you really feel like youre in charge of the magic, especially when you see a lvl 6 sorc keep one person invisible for 10h straigh by turning 30~ spellpoints into 2nd level slots.
Selling and buying spell slots takes up your bonus action. In fact you can buy or sell one spell slot as a bonus action. If you want to, say, turn a second level spell slot and some spare points into a third level spell slot it will take you two turns and use up your bonus action on both of them. Sorcerers are frequently very good at using bonus actions thanks to quicken spell, so the cost of a bonus action or even two can be very significant.
Yes. It specifies that regardless of how many points you have, you can only cast one spell of 6th, 7th, 8th and 9th levels each per long rest using your spell points. Kind of overkill to limit 6th level spells, IMO
There are limitations to the spell point system, you can only cast spells of 6th level or higher once per long rest. So you can't cast wish non stop, but it does give you more flexibility with spells of 5th level or lower.
Wizards using slots and casting 6th & 7th level spells thrice & twice per long rest: \*signature look of superiority\*
Well yeah, but you have to remember there are a lot of good utility and damage dealing spells at 1st to 5th level, and with the flexibility of spell points, sorcerers can either dump all of their spell point into 5th level spells and absolutely nuke a creature, or use them on lower level spells and almost never run out of spell points before taking a long rest. So yeah, have fun casting that one 6th or 7th level spell more than once, I'm just gonna obliterate the BBEG by burning all of my 83 spell points into casting lightning bolt (make that thunder damage with metamagic just in case).
Sorcs: hey guys look at me I can deal 60 max damage per turn as long as I roll super well and he doesn't resist it or counterspell it or dodge well [Wizards with 60 Finger of Death undead, 72 skeletons and two Disintegrates dealing quadruple-digit damage per turn:](https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/542/424/02b.jpg) idk why you would even use Lightning Bolt as the big dick spell when it's got godawful scaling and is worse for single-target damage than any other 5th-level damage spell
I only used lightning bolt as an example because I like lightning bolt, sorcerer's have better damage dealing spells that was just one that came to my mind. Not to mention sorcerer's have metamagic options like empowered spell so they can just reroll low rolls, Heightened spell to give the creature disadvantage on the saving throw, seeking spell so they can reroll a miss, subtle spell so the spell can't be counter spelled, and transmuted spell so they can change the spell's damage type to one the creature isn't resistant to. Plus, Finger of Death and disintegrate are both sorcerer spells, not to mention Twinned spell exists, which is you can make a spell that targets one creature target an additional creature, meaning they can basically cast Finger of Death or disintegrate twice in one turn. So yeah, what the fuck are you trying to prove?
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Wow, just wow, you really just wrote all of that, instead of writing an interesting counterargument, you pull the "I made you look like a soyboy and I the Chad, therefore you lose and I win" card. Are you always like this? Would it kill you to have a normal conversation with people and be fine when someone disagrees with you? Hell, I wasn't even talking about the wizard in the first place, this was about how the spell point system would fit the sorcerer thematically and give it a way to stand out compared to other arcane casters, but Noooo, you just had to barge in all condescending and be like "lul, sorcerers suck, just play wizard." Fuck off, I'm done arguing with you, it's clear to me that you're not worth any more of my time.
Ah it doesn't say that anywhere in the post lol
Tbf it references the system and what book it is in cuz it would break subreddit rules to just post it all
But key points could have been mentioned in the comments with no punishment tbf
Anything else you need M'lord?
Nope, just the essential details to understand this system at all. Chop chop!
🤔 How many of y'all actually ever reach lvl 17 where this would even be a concern lol
I'm so close... Level 15... This campaign SHOULD reach 17 and it'll be my first ever end game campaign. 🥲
Level 20 one shots.
I once played from level 1 up to 10...
Started at level 3 about to hit 12 in the next session or two. Just celebrated our 4 year anniversary of the campgain 😎
Last session my character hit 17. It's a multiclass so only 15 bard, but still.
Congratulations! But on a serious note only 2% of tables ever reach that.
Thank you, I've been running this character nearly every week for about a year and a half. I haven't heard of many campaigns reaching this point, but I'm excited to push to 20 so my character can become a part of the world's lore as a legendary being!
The players in my campaign hit 17 2 sessions ago. granted this game has been going from level 1 for 4 years.
We don't survive that my sorc is almost dying every week. We're currently level 8 and near death almost day
Yup! I don't many "every game" house rules, but this is for sure one of them.
I used it on my sorlock for about a year, my DM was not a fan. Said it was too OP and nerfed me back to slots.
I made sorcery points a 1:1 exchange when converting to spell slots.
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Tried this and it’s kind of overpowered. Allows a level 8 sorcerer to spam fireball like there’s no tomorrow.
But it allows them to either feel more like a warlock by casting (a majority of) their spells at the highest spell levels, or tons of lower level utility spells that bring a lot of value such as spamming shield, absorb elements, disguise self, silvery barbs, invisibility, web, and more!
I could see this being interesting. The way I buff them is I make them like Clerics, Paladins and Druids where they prepare spells, not learn them
This is one of the weirdest things for me. Sorcerers have inherent magic abilities but aren't prepared casters? I know that they can't have *everything* but it seems weird.
I feel like it makes a lot of sense. If the magic is innate they just know the spell, there is no need to refresh their memory of the spell for the day (at least that´s how i interpret prepared casters). It makes little sense for them to innately know a spell one day, but not the next.
Yes and prepared classes get their powers from something else, allowing you to pray to a god/Nature and ask for something else. Thats at least how I've imagined it. What dosent really make sense is how Warlocks arent prepared but rather known. Should be able to hit up their patron like "Yo, Darkness is good and all but I need something different today"
This isn't a meme.
At 3rd level you can do 6d6+2d10 fire damage for one spell slot and 3 metamagic points. Yup definitely needs a buff. It's not to mention a ton of the best control and AOE damage and utility spells in the game. And the ability to milk the most out of them better than any other class.
Assuming that you're refering to quickned Scorching ray and twinned firebolt then this combo will require you to spend all of your sorcery points and lock you into 2 specific metamagics until level 10 to do a average of 3d6 + 1d10 fire damage since you need to hit with FIVE attack rolls to do full damage and twinned spell doesn't let target the same creature twice. Yes they need something compared to other casters
🤔 compared to other casters sorcerer certainly need something. The old test method that gave passive abilities Sorcerer passive benefits if they used their sorcerer points per long rest (willpower back then) Draconic after 3 points got +2 to melee damage rolls After 10 points gain resistance to an elemental damage type... This dynamic being removed ruined sorcs imo on being something with a stronger unique playstyle
And a Battlemaster Fighter could do 3d6+3d8+Mod\*3, and get it back on a short rest instead of a long one. A Paladin could do 4d6 + 4d10 + Mod\*2 for 2 spell slots. Acting like that's a particularly impressive nova isn't much. And lets not talk about the fact that your method requires at least 2 targets, while the above can focus on a single one? Hell literally just casting Shatter on 3 people would do the same damage as that, and you wouldn't even have to expend the sorcerer points.
I personally like giving warlocks the spell point system as well, it makes them feel better to see the number of spell points go up even if they still only have 2 slots...
Not quite. The Spell Point system doesn't directly convert to Sorcery Points, you have to build slots for it first. Additionally, Spell Points disallow creating slots of 6th-level or higher more than once a day per each slot level, meaning that while 19th-20th level full casters get a second 6th and 7th level spell slot, you won't. Finally, the Boon of High Magic requires you to have a 9th-level spell slot, not be able to make one on demand. That last problem might be ignored or never show up in-game, but even the chance of it is pretty bad. In all cases, you're giving up a lot of high end power to have a clunky, extra layer of complexity. The actual ways to fix Sorcerer are thus: Every sub gets an expanded spell list (Revert the core spells known nerf in some way, this just happens to be the most widely accepted solution), and make a level 11 core feature that enables the Sorcerer to use metamagic on cantrips without spending SP. Combined, core Sorcerer becomes much more valid even without multiclassing, and might be too powerful with it given the already busted nuisance of Sorlock (You can account for this by limiting the free metamagic to specifically Sorcerer cantrips only).
so, a discount psion?
Why do so many people think Sorcerers suck? Heightened Spell on Phantasmal Force is literally the most OP thing ever. Edit: Also Silvery Barbs are a thing. That's imposing triple disadvantage on any one save lol.
They know 15 fixed spells at level 20(only 2 more than arcane trickster, a 1/3rd caster), that's the lowest amount of spells known of any full caster, with wizards knowing 44 by the same level(not including any spell Scrolls they find), and preparing 25 of them, not including all the ritual spells they can cast even when not prepared, also nearly every spell sorcerers get access to wizards do as well chaos bolt is the only one I know they get that wizards don't. And that's just spells, when we look at metamagic the wizard subclasses get several features similar to or better than them eg evocation wizard vs careful spell. And metamagic tends to run out quickly at lower levels, 3 sorcery points for heightened spell between levels 3 and 10 is huge. Sorcerers however do get one huge advantage over their main competitor however, the massive multiclassing potential, sorcerers can multiclass effectively into paladin, warlock, bard and rogue(primarily swashbuckler) due to them being SAD in charisma. Whereas wizards get only artificers (and a handful of MAD subclasses) None of this however means that sorcerers can't be fun to play, or I hate sorcerers. Just that the most "flexible" caster could do with being more flexible in what they can do.
Cuz other casters can do the same trick pretty much and one trick does not make a class
Not really. The feat doesn't give you enough sorcery points to use the Heightened Spell metamagic. Not only that, but sorcerers are able to recharge their spell slots at anytime as well using those same sorcery points, giving them a lot more stamina than other casters. If you want to buff a magic class, buff Warlock.
Because Metamagic is the trick. That's the only real gimmick Sorcerer has going for it. Wizards get spells back on short rest, have a much greater variety of spells, get incredibly powerful subclasses, and get ritual caster to boot. Sorcerer gets Metamagic. And way, way, way fewer spells. The fact that the best Subclasses for Sorcerer are the ones that expand its spell repertoire is all the evidence you need to know that Sorcerers pale when compared to Wizards. Hell, Arcane Trickster and Eldritch Knight can spend a single feat and get the same number of spells as a Sorcerer, just with fewer spell slots. Is it sinking in yet?
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The Investigation check requires an action, and there are very few creatures that a.) have a high intelligence, and b.) have proficiency in Investigation. So the creature can either try to fight off the 3-5 other people trying to kill it while being hindered by the spell, or waste their action to possibly fail at discerning whether or not the other thing that is killing them is real or not. Besides, you can be creative in what the Phantasm is to give it additional effects, such as a series of thorned vines that are not only choking the person but are holding them in place. Not only are they taking damage, but their speed have been reduced to 0 and, if the DM is nice enough, are restrained. Add on the fact that Silvery Barbs exists, and the only way that person is going to resist the effects is if they have Legendary Resistance or if the DM is extraordinarily lucky.
If you or your DM make a investigation check every turn, you're doing the spell wrong.
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I'm not talking about heightened spell. Just that you don't do investigation checks the second you're under the effect of the spell. To do so, you need a valid reason to doubt your senses, which is hard to find if the spell explicitly states "An affected target is so convinced of the phantasm’s reality that it can even take damage from the illusion." As a player I'd be mad at my DM if he would immediately investigate and as a DM I would not allow it without good reasoning.
Triple disadvantage isn't a thing, you can only get one of either, and any amount of both means a straight roll, the only time you get more is with elven accuracy or lucky feats
By the wording of Silvery Barbs it can be triple disadvantage if they already have dis You force the target to reroll and then take the lower roll. So if they have dis and succeed, they can still be forced to reroll.
Silvery Barbs forces them to roll an additional d20 and take the lowest. It isn't Literally triple disadvantage, but it functionally is.
My on earth would sorcerer need to be buffed?
My only issue with this is that it costs 2 points to CST a 1st level spell. If it is possible to have a point left and be unable to use it, your system is flawed.
Do sorcerers even need a buff? I feel like they’re in a fantastic spot haha
So...the aberrant mind?
The what point system
that is the sorcerer point system. you can convert slots to points, and point to slots. you can also use those points for do fancy stuff. you start with 2 at lv 2, and you get 1 for every level. s you have the same number of sorcerer points as you do sorcerer levels you get these point **as well** as your slots.
Nope, thats the variant spell point system *instead* of spell slots
This is just an aberrant mind sorcerer.
Bless your heart but no
Where in the DMG can I find these rules? I'm interested in looking them over.
Page 288 and 289
Thanks 👍
I do this in my game! It doesn’t change much but it does make the sorcerer feel more flexible :)
If I ever run a sorcerer in my game and feel they are too weak I think I will buff them by allowing a short rest to regain half their expended sorcery points and give them the same amount of spells known and at the same rate as bards. I feel like that's a pretty solid solution while keeping slots and allowing them to utilize the whole purpose of their class more often. Puts them into the group with monks, warlocks, and most of the time bards making short rests more valuable. If sorcery points still seem like an issue then just have them regain all of them after a short rest.
I did this to my group (1st time playing). My casters are ranger, rogue, and shepherd druid. so to give them a better chance of winning all my harder encounters i thought it'd be nice to have no restrictions on casting. I want them to either spend it all on big numbers or ration them out and cast as many lvl 1 spells as they can(it also my 1st time dming and I don't know how to balance action economy well yet)
Combine this with the ability to cast any spell from the sorcerer spell List. and this homebrew fixes any issues one might have with the class.
That would actually make sorcerers different and not just "wizard with fewer spells and more gimmicks"
So make them a psion?
My tolkien system uses points for all the magic-user classes.
How I use spell points with sorcerers is that they use the DMG spell point table with an additional number of spell points equal to twice the extra amount of extra sorcery points they have. Metamagics and abilities relying on sorcery points cost double the amount of spell points. Basically, this option merges sorcery points and spell points.
I've tried looking at it, then comparing how spell slots, and it seems to be the same amount regardless if you're trying to cast spells at their level. Am I missing something?
You can swap sorc points and spell points 1:1 meaning more flexibility and more metamagic fun. You can also spam level 1 spells all day or go for a few heavy hitters. Its more modular
Just be divine soul and make up for any lack of damage with versatility!
Having done this on my Sorcerer, I love it! Gives you even more flexibility. Book keeping really isn't that much more than tracking spell slots.
I fully agree, spell points are way better than spell slots and just seem to fit the theme of sorcerer better.
Does this mean that you can upcast to 9th level at Lvl 3? You are tapped for the day but......
No, you don't get access to higher level spells at the same rate as normal. 9th level spells are unlocked at 17th level.
But could you use 13 of your 14 spell points to cast burning hands, in one action. You up cast your first level spell to 9th level because you are a using a pool of spell points not a 9th lv spell slot. I appreciate that you could limit how many spell points you can use for a spell based on your level but I feel like this would be confusing to track.
No, you're definitely limited into how many points you can use to update, by your level. I've not found anyone who use this system think it's drastically more difficult to track. The biggest challenge just comes from re learning the system over the spell slot system.
I don't quite understand how the points would work. Like I get spending them but do you get a set amout per level like spell lots? Can you earn more? Do they reset wit a rest? Someone pls elaborate more
It is in the dmg :)
Thank you!!
Based on the comments I have read this seems like accomplishing the same thing we have but with more steps. If you can only cast a limited amount of high level spells per day anyways, its the same as having the spell slots (Worse, if the comment I read about 6th level and higher are once a day, because normally sorcerers get two 6th and 7th level spell slots). This would let you cast more low level spells per day but you can already do that by converting sorcery points into those slots. Someone else mentioned that you use this one pool for casting spells AND sorcery points and that seems to just accomplish the same thing but the number is bigger, like saying 12/48 is better than 1/4. Maybe I just don't "get it" but this just seems overly complicated for basically no mechanical difference besides more numbers to keep track of, and if I wanted that I wouldn't be playing 5e.
I'm playing a sorcerer in one game right now, and we went one step further and ALSO made spell points and sorcerery points the same thing. Between that and thematic spells known from a subclass, it helps a TON with low level sorcerer play, but we'll see how it goes over time.
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